0:00

And I don't want to

0:00

give the impression that I'm

0:02

constantly just thinking about

0:02

the financial aspect of it. It's

0:04

just that your life is so tied

0:04

to money decisions throughout it

0:13

as you know, I mean you've

0:13

dedicated your life to educating

0:16

people about this. When it moves

0:16

from the theoretical to the

0:23

highly, highly personal, it's a

0:23

very, very different feeling.

0:37

In this extended

0:37

episode, my good friend Darren

0:40

deal is going to explain the

0:40

emotional and financial impacts

0:44

of living through the

0:44

coronavirus pandemic after

0:47

getting laid off, having a heart

0:47

attack and then getting

0:51

diagnosed with lung cancer. We

0:51

had a wide ranging conversation

0:56

about not only his health, but

0:56

also the financial implications

1:00

of everything he's been through

1:00

and is going through from

1:05

critical illness insurance,

1:05

disability benefits, emergency

1:08

funds, and more. Darren talks

1:08

openly about the decisions he

1:12

and his family have made, and

1:12

how his perspective about the

1:16

balance between money, life and

1:16

health have evolved. There is a

1:21

lot to absorb in this episode.

1:21

And I want to thank Darrin for

1:25

volunteering to tell his story.

1:36

This is mostly money, and I am

1:36

your host, Preet Banerjee. And

1:39

on the show today I'm going to

1:39

be speaking with a friend who's

1:43

been diagnosed with two critical

1:43

illnesses, heart attack, and

1:48

cancer. And we're going to talk

1:48

about how that completely up

1:52

ended his entire life, and of

1:52

course, his financial life as

1:55

well. So he's going to share his

1:55

story about his experience, how

1:58

it all happened. We're gonna

1:58

talk about the financial

2:01

aspects, what insurance he had

2:01

in place, we're gonna talk about

2:04

how much the drugs cost and how

2:04

that threatened to potentially

2:08

bankrupt them. And how a whole

2:08

new suite of financial decisions

2:12

arose from everything that's

2:12

happened so far, is a dear

2:15

friend of mine. And he thought

2:15

it would be worthwhile to tell

2:19

his story, because we both agree

2:19

that there is a lot that can be

2:23

learned from it. And he's been a

2:23

financial educator and marketer

2:27

for much of his career. And so

2:27

he was eager to help people

2:30

learn and think about just how

2:30

easily life can change in an

2:35

instant. Darren deal. Welcome to

2:35

the show, my friend.

2:39

Thank you so much

2:39

Preet. I was I'm interested to

2:42

hear myself talk as they say after.

2:46

Well, first

2:46

question is, how are you doing

2:48

right now?

2:49

Right now? I feel

2:49

great. I mean, my heart attack

2:54

was in late May of 2020. So I'm,

2:54

you know, six months plus

3:01

basically from my surgery date,

3:01

where I had a quintuple bypass,

3:04

that was June 1 of last year.

3:04

And so from from from that

3:10

perspective, I'm feeling pretty

3:10

good. I'm doing my walking, I'm

3:15

actually in a rehab program now

3:15

that got had gotten normally

3:21

that would happen within a

3:21

couple months after your

3:24

surgery, but it was delayed from

3:24

COVID. And now they've, they're

3:29

delivering these programs online

3:29

instead of, you know, at a kind

3:33

of like a medical gym type

3:33

place. So yeah, I feel good

3:38

about that. And then with the

3:38

cancer, I'm, I'm in the

3:41

treatment that requires that I

3:41

take a pill every day, which is

3:45

a targeted therapy drug. So I've

3:45

not had to endure chemotherapy

3:51

or radiation to this point.

3:51

Radiation may happen a little

3:56

bit later this year. But so the

3:56

side effects of the targeted

4:01

therapy drug aren't anything

4:01

like those other two things. So

4:04

all things considered, day to

4:04

day. I feel pretty good.

4:09

Well, I'm glad

4:09

to hear that. Of course, we met

4:11

initially, through the financial

4:11

services, but we didn't really

4:15

connect more deeply until after

4:15

I met your wife, Jeanette, and

4:21

Jeanette was actually one of the

4:21

directors on million dollar

4:24

neighborhood on The Oprah

4:24

Winfrey Network of which I was

4:27

hosting season two. She took me

4:27

aside one day in between takes

4:31

and she said you know, I think

4:31

you know, my husband and I'm

4:35

thinking myself Jeanette,

4:35

Jeanette, Jeanette, deal deal

4:37

deal, like Darrin deal. He's

4:37

like, yeah, Darren's my husband.

4:42

And, and then it was after that,

4:42

that we really started to get to

4:46

know each other well, and of course, working on a show together. You know, you get you

4:48

become very close very quickly,

4:52

spending so much time right. And

4:52

I had a blast working with

4:55

Jeanette. So I thought maybe you

4:55

could just talk a little bit

4:58

about your background in the

4:58

field. Like just very quickly

5:01

how you got into the service and

5:01

kind of what you did. Sure.

5:05

I started out as a

5:05

journalist, and I worked for

5:08

years at standard broadcasting,

5:08

which doesn't exist anymore. But

5:12

at the time, you know, it owned

5:12

some of the biggest radio

5:14

stations in Canada, cjd and

5:14

Montreal and cfrp, and Toronto,

5:21

and they had a national news

5:21

network and I worked for them

5:24

for many years, then the an

5:24

interesting thing happened is

5:29

that the general manager of the

5:29

new service left to go to a

5:34

mutual fund company in the 90s.

5:34

And the rest of us are going

5:38

well, you know, Ken, was making

5:38

fun of chap named Ken

5:41

Whitehurst. I said, Why, why are

5:41

you going to mutual fund

5:44

companies as well, they're, you

5:44

know, at the, you know, they're

5:48

figuring out a way to

5:48

communicate with advisors,

5:50

that's kind of news like, and,

5:50

you know, they have this slot,

5:53

and this idea is in, okay, so

5:53

eventually can hired some of the

5:58

reporters and journalists that

5:58

worked for him at standard and

6:01

brought them over to that at the

6:01

time was global strategy, mutual

6:05

funds, another company that no

6:05

longer exists, got bought by

6:07

AGF, around 2000. But they had

6:07

an interesting marketing idea at

6:14

the time, which we would now

6:14

refer to as content marketing.

6:18

And essentially, it's, you know,

6:18

where you provide interesting

6:23

and valuable content to your

6:23

target audience, in this case,

6:28

financial intermediaries, and do

6:28

it on a sort of day to day

6:32

urgent basis, like news. But you

6:32

know, so there was a bunch of

6:35

journalists that were working

6:35

there, that then led me down the

6:38

path to sort of stay in that

6:38

world for a while. And I went

6:42

from there to Rogers, which had

6:42

launched advisors, edge

6:45

magazine, previous to me going

6:45

there, but they, the year I went

6:51

there, they'd launched their

6:51

website, advisor.ca. And so I

6:55

was running that public, those

6:55

publications and their advisor

7:00

forum conference and everything

7:00

for about five years at Rogers,

7:03

then I went to stock house calm,

7:03

which was, you know, small cap

7:07

investors hub for a few years,

7:07

and then ended up going to

7:13

another financial services

7:13

company, this time, a life

7:16

insurance company, sunlife,

7:16

where I launched something

7:19

called brighter life, which was

7:19

a new service, but for the

7:23

general public. You know, so we

7:23

were creating content and

7:28

connecting with content

7:28

creators, like yourself and

7:32

other people that, you know, we

7:32

all know, in the financial

7:35

services education field. And

7:35

then from there, after five

7:40

years, I ended up going to

7:40

tangerine bank, where I was up

7:44

until November of 2019. And

7:44

there we'd also love to help

7:48

them launch and create content

7:48

for their, for their audience.

7:53

So I've always been around sort

7:53

of the, the, the education side

7:58

of it. And that's how you and I

7:58

interacted many, many times over

8:01

the last several years.

8:03

Let's fast

8:03

forward to 2019 November. So

8:07

this is when things really

8:07

started like, like, there's

8:11

these massive fork in the road

8:11

moments for you. That all kind

8:13

of happened all around the same

8:13

time. Yeah. So do you want to

8:16

walk us through? So you know,

8:16

the sad story?

8:20

Yeah, I mean, I had

8:20

of the pandemic, just by a

8:24

couple of months, I got laid off

8:24

at from tangerine, you know,

8:30

some new leadership to come in. And there was a number of colleagues of time that were

8:32

laid off that year, but so I

8:36

went into 2020 in job search

8:36

mode. And, you know, very

8:42

quickly into 2020, we were all

8:42

hit with something no one had

8:46

predicted, which was the

8:46

pandemic. And that really sort

8:52

of turned things upside down. At

8:52

the same time, I was doing

8:57

something that a lot of other

8:57

people did in lockdown, I was

9:01

trying to keep up my exercise by

9:01

walking and working out online.

9:06

And then on, on that day, in

9:06

May, was a Sunday morning, I'd

9:10

had just finished an exercise

9:10

session zoom class with you

9:15

know, five or six other of my

9:15

trainers, clients, and you know,

9:20

I went in the house and start

9:20

within a couple hours, it didn't

9:24

start I wasn't feeling well. And

9:24

I felt sort of some discomfort

9:29

across my chest. But I thought

9:29

you know, we don't we've done a

9:32

lot of chest work that workout

9:32

and I thought I just, you know,

9:37

I never once thought the word

9:37

heart attack. And this was like

9:40

on a Sunday. And what happened

9:40

is I did sort of get sick to my

9:44

stomach and I did spend the next

9:44

few days sort of feeling ill and

9:48

at no point did I think I had a

9:48

heart attack or would anyone

9:52

think hey, I think you might

9:52

have so because every there was

9:57

such a talk about COVID we were

9:57

starting to worry Well, maybe

10:00

these, you know, I've got a few

10:00

of the symptoms that they list

10:04

and I did call telehealth,

10:04

Ontario. And at the end of the

10:09

call, remarkably, the nurse

10:09

said, Listen, Mr. Deal, I've

10:13

actually called an ambulance to

10:13

come to your house, because I

10:15

believe you've had a heart

10:15

attack. Now keep in mind, the

10:18

heart attack that she believed I

10:18

had would have happened on the

10:21

Sunday. And this is now the

10:21

following Friday before I

10:23

actually called so has almost

10:25

a full weekend, almost a

10:26

full week. But what

10:26

had happened is on the Thursday,

10:29

a different chest feeling came

10:29

in, and I was feeling some

10:35

discomfort in my chest again,

10:35

the ambulance came and they they

10:39

said, Well, you certainly don't look like you're having a heart attack. Now I said, Well, I'm

10:41

not. But here's the story. And

10:43

they said, well, they hooked me

10:43

up to the to, you know, to the

10:46

heart monitor and everything and

10:46

said, everything looks okay, but

10:49

let's take you in and you know,

10:49

get your COVID test. And they

10:51

can run some other tests. So I

10:51

was in the hospital for a few

10:55

hours there. And they taken some

10:55

blood. And then a doctor came by

11:01

one point and said, Listen,

11:01

though, there's still a couple

11:03

more tests I want to do. But if

11:03

they're like, the other thing,

11:06

you know, we'll pop send you home, and we'll you'll hear whether or not you're, you know,

11:08

and give your instructions. If

11:11

you're positive for COVID, we'll

11:11

let you know. But after he got

11:15

the last test, he came back sat

11:15

on the edge of my bed looked at

11:18

me and said, Mr. Deal, you've

11:18

had a heart attack. And I

12:02

couldn't really believe it. But

12:02

that then led to of course,

12:06

chest x rays, and an angiogram

12:06

and a couple days later, where

12:14

they determined that they could

12:14

see that I had a number of

12:17

blockages, and I would have to

12:17

have surgery to basically bypass

12:23

at least you know, for I they

12:23

thought it was going to be four

12:27

bypass, it ended up being five.

12:27

But the other thing that

12:31

happened during that time was a

12:31

doctor came to see me and said,

12:35

Listen, you know, we took some

12:35

chest x rays, because we wanted

12:38

to see if you'd had a pleural

12:38

effusion. And we just wanted to

12:41

check and see what we could see

12:41

around the heart and everything.

12:44

And we did find something that

12:44

we're not sure that we need to

12:47

investigate further. And I said,

12:47

well, what's that? He said,

12:49

Well, there's a, there's a

12:49

couple of lesions on, there's

12:52

one on your left lung and one on

12:52

your right lung. And I said,

12:55

Well, what do you mean lesions and said, well, we're not sure what it is, it could be a lot of

12:57

things. But you know, including

13:00

some scary things, it could be,

13:00

you know, some other things all

13:03

together. So, you know, I'm

13:03

still dealing with the fact that

13:08

within the last couple days, I

13:08

was told I had a heart attack, I

13:10

have to go for major surgery.

13:10

And now they throw this at me.

13:14

And of course, no one said the

13:14

word cancer, no one said the

13:18

word cancer but what the first

13:18

word you think I thought. And so

13:22

I did not have a great night

13:22

that night in the hospital.

13:27

Turns out that I had the

13:27

surgery, the the heart surgeon

13:30

was able to find and remove one

13:30

of the lesions while I was still

13:35

at the hospital, the last

13:35

recovering from the heart

13:38

surgery, he came and let me know

13:38

that, you know, they they ran

13:43

pathology, and it is a kind of

13:43

lung cancer that they

13:47

discovered. But they believe

13:47

they you know that they had

13:51

extracted most of it, then the

13:51

focus was you know, recovering

13:55

from the heart surgery, because

13:55

the first six weeks are pretty

13:57

tough because you've had your

13:57

chest bone split open. And so as

14:01

I was released from hospital

14:01

after 16 days, where they

14:04

removed that one lump, you know,

14:04

on my lung, around that area,

14:10

there seemed to have been some

14:10

spread, including a couple of

14:14

lymph nodes. And so at first

14:14

they were thinking if you know,

14:17

if it was just if I had just a

14:17

little single spot, it would be

14:20

stage one, potentially. But you

14:20

know, this was clearly in their

14:24

mind. a different situation. And

14:24

so it was like stage four. And

14:29

so what does that mean? And it's

14:29

like, the doctors that these are

14:33

tough conversations and remember

14:33

the time of COVID these

14:35

conversations are happening over

14:35

the phone. So I wasn't sitting

14:39

in an office with these doctors.

14:39

The facts being you know, stage

14:45

four lung cancer discovery, what

14:45

you've got 19% chance of living

14:49

five years,

14:49

you've always

14:49

struck me as you know, you're a

14:52

healthy guy, like, you know, I'd

14:52

follow you on Instagram and you

14:54

know, you're working out

14:54

religiously working up a sweat.

14:58

And you know, I imagine and

14:58

correct me if I'm wrong, but I

15:03

imagine you you have you know, a

15:03

family doctor that you've been

15:05

working with for years. Yeah,

15:05

you go to your physicals.

15:08

Well, we had those

15:08

conversations preed annoying,

15:10

like for instance, my doctor,

15:10

family doctor and I when I saw

15:14

him, you know, post recovery, he

15:14

was saying well, you know,

15:17

Darren, as you know, like you

15:17

you fit on the heart stuff,

15:21

you've never had high

15:21

cholesterol. You know, my

15:23

cholesterol level was always in

15:23

control. And And then secondly,

15:27

you know, I not have I am not an

15:27

I've never been a smoker. So

15:32

lung cancer as I learned,

15:32

there's different kinds and will

15:37

the kind I have is called non

15:37

small cell lung cancer and it is

15:42

it is not smoking related,

15:44

when we hear,

15:44

you know, information about

15:46

probabilities of, you know,

15:46

heart attack cancer and the risk

15:50

factors, even if you are doing

15:50

all the right things, it doesn't

15:55

mean that Oh, you're, you're

15:55

guaranteed not to have these

15:59

ailments affect you. Right?

15:59

Yeah, the probabilities may be

16:02

lower, but it can still happen.

16:02

And so, you know, I think that's

16:06

one of the things whenever, you

16:06

know, people hear stories like

16:08

this, it makes them think a

16:08

little bit more about their own

16:12

situation. But I, you know, I

16:12

encourage people I know so many

16:15

people who, you know, have gone

16:15

so many years without doing the

16:19

physical, and they are not even

16:19

keeping track of those things.

16:22

Like those baseline like, you

16:22

know, what's your blood pressure

16:25

with your cholesterol level and

16:25

stuff like that, that stuff you

16:27

got to do? But even then, you

16:27

know, it's no guarantee. So

16:32

okay, so you've now been

16:32

diagnosed with a heart attack,

16:35

they've found this particular

16:35

type of cancer in your lungs.

16:40

And so what, what time period

16:40

are we talking about?

16:43

So but we learned,

16:43

I got the surgery was June 1,

16:48

and about, and I've been in the

16:48

hospitals at that point about a

16:52

week. So a week later, I was out

16:52

six weeks after that is when I

16:57

had the PET scan, so about two

16:57

months after the surgeries,

17:00

because, you know, there's about

17:00

a week delay that I found out

17:03

about that. I knew I had cancer,

17:03

but I found out the stage kind

17:08

of thing. And then shortly after

17:08

that, you know, the basically on

17:13

that call the surgical

17:13

oncologists and the radiation

17:17

oncologist said, Look, we're not

17:17

really in the picture right now.

17:20

Because you've just had, you

17:20

know, major surgery, and there's

17:23

the level of this spread, you

17:23

know, there's radiation guys, I

17:27

can't, you know, if I were to

17:27

radiate you that much, and kill

17:29

you kind of thing. So, we're

17:29

handing you over for now to the

17:32

medical oncologist. And, you

17:32

know, we might come back into

17:35

the picture at some point, but,

17:35

you know, and the medical

17:37

oncologist, we'd had one meeting

17:37

with terrific, a terrific guy,

17:42

he explained that in so yeah,

17:42

it's, it's one thing you learn

17:46

about cancer is there's

17:46

specifics to the kind of

17:50

mutation you have. And you know,

17:50

so you have a certain kind of

17:54

cancer with a certain markers of

17:54

mutation, that means it falls

17:59

into this category, and I happen

17:59

to have one that fell into the

18:02

category that was, could be

18:02

treated with a pill that was

18:09

pretty, pretty new, like only

18:09

approved 2018 kind of thing. You

18:14

know, he told me, we, you know,

18:14

we're gonna want to start you on

18:18

this pill, but it's quite

18:18

expensive, and how expensive and

18:21

he said, Well, for a year

18:21

supply, because you take it

18:24

every day, it's it's like

18:24

$130,000 $130,000 per

18:31

year.

18:31

Yeah, it's like, we

18:31

worked it out. It's like 350

18:35

bucks a pill. So, here's how it

18:35

works. In Ontario, it's an

18:42

across Canada, there's, I think

18:42

similar things, so it's not

18:46

covered by Oh, hip. And in many

18:46

cases, it might not be covered

18:50

by your private insurance.

18:50

There's campaigns, you know,

18:55

underway, lung cancer, Canada is

18:55

involved with to get them, you

18:59

know, covered and under both

18:59

those scenarios. But in Canada

19:04

that so when you mentioned at

19:04

the top there, why don't we get

19:07

afford to pay this, first of

19:07

all, I'm not working. Secondly,

19:13

and it's not that we wouldn't do

19:13

we'd find a way to do it,

19:15

because it's, you know, a matter

19:15

of life or death, or hopefully

19:18

buying a number of years that

19:18

you might otherwise not have

19:21

had. And there's a bunch of

19:21

stuff I've learned about it

19:23

since but the doctor told us

19:23

about the Ontario Trillium

19:27

program, which is kind of a way

19:27

of covering catastrophic drug

19:31

costs for people that don't have

19:31

insurance. because keep in mind,

19:35

like, my wife, as you know, is

19:35

freelance in the television

19:39

world and has been for like the

19:39

last 20 years or so. And I was

19:42

the guy full time with the

19:42

benefits, but now we are both

19:45

not, you know, we are without

19:45

our benefits. So we didn't have

19:48

our medical benefits anymore,

19:48

hadn't moved yet to sort of buy,

19:53

like Blue Cross or something to

19:53

sort of fill in that gap. You

19:56

know, it's still sort of

19:56

figuring it out. But I was

19:58

covered up till the end of May.

19:58

And when my had my heart attack

20:04

does come we'll talk about this

20:04

in a minute because I know we're

20:06

going to talk specific products

20:06

and what they did for us, but by

20:11

but now, you know, there was

20:11

nothing so he said yeah, you

20:15

apply for it, you tell them the

20:15

story and the the way it now of

20:20

course people have different

20:20

means can apply for it. And the

20:25

way they kind of equalize it is

20:25

what's the deductible that you

20:29

pay? So they look at your tax

20:29

records from the previous year,

20:33

and they calculate your

20:33

deductible. So the deductible

20:39

that we were sponsible for over

20:39

the course of the year, you

20:42

didn't have to pay the whole thing up front, but over the course of the year, would have

20:44

added up to about $12,000, I

20:49

think the the drug manufacturer

20:49

of this specific bourbon drug

20:55

that I was taking, they have a

20:55

program that knocks a couple

20:59

1000 off of that, and so on. So

20:59

then it was really down to, you

21:03

know, imagining that I'd be

21:03

taking it for the next year and

21:06

hopefully longer, but just

21:06

looking at it in a year by year

21:08

basis, it was about 10 grand we

21:08

had to come up with. And so we

21:15

had some, we had some options

21:15

for that. And however, I didn't

21:19

have to pull the trigger on any

21:19

of them because I was visited by

21:23

my former boss from my days at

21:23

Rogers media. And then I found

21:27

out two days later that he and a

21:27

few other former colleagues had

21:30

started a GoFundMe for me, and

21:30

which then has two or three days

21:36

basically all ex colleagues from

21:36

different jobs. The 10 grand was

21:41

amazing. It which was a

21:41

wonderful, you know, just felt

21:46

so uplifting, not just for the

21:46

relief of, you know, having the

21:51

money to cover it financially.

21:51

But just the gesture was so

21:55

beautiful. And it was, yeah,

21:55

terrific.

21:58

It's so it's so

21:58

touching. I'm not surprised. I

22:01

mean, you know, you're such a

22:01

great guy. And it's no, no

22:06

surprise that you've left such

22:06

an impression on so many people

22:09

that they would do that. The conversation with Darren do

22:18

continues in just a minute, I

22:22

want to give a special shout out

22:22

to Northern bc for not only

22:26

leaving a rating and review on

22:26

Apple podcasts, but for also

22:30

completing my survey on

22:30

financial advice. And a thank

22:33

you to Massimo Moti, for

22:33

offering to buy me a whiskey. If

22:37

we ever run into each other at

22:37

performing one me and my friend,

22:41

I will hold you to that. Taking

22:41

just 30 seconds out of your day.

22:45

And leaving a reading and or

22:45

review on Apple podcasts is much

22:49

appreciated. And thank you to

22:49

everyone who has already left

22:53

ratings and reviews. I do read

22:53

every single one. And now back

22:58

to the conversation with my friend. So let's talk about some of the

23:09

timing issues. I mean, like, the

23:13

timing is just horrible on so

23:13

many different fronts. So, you

23:16

know, you get you get laid off

23:16

COVID hits, you have a heart

23:20

attack, you get diagnosed with

23:20

lung cancer, basically straight

23:23

after that. And, you know, at

23:23

what point did the shock shift

23:31

from, you know, the health

23:31

perspective to potentially the

23:35

financial perspective? Like At

23:35

what point? Did you know, did

23:39

you get like a sinking thing

23:39

about Okay, what does this mean

23:42

financially for me? Yeah,

23:44

it's great question. And I don't know, there was a specific point of

23:46

demarcation for that, it was

23:49

more, it started to boil up as

23:49

even while I was in the

23:53

hospital, because I had been

23:53

laid off in November of 2019.

23:57

But I had an exit package, which

23:57

you know, preserved my salary

24:02

for a number of months. And

24:02

then, you know, I, through a

24:04

lawyer got that extended a bit

24:04

more, and it preserved my salary

24:08

and some of my benefits. And so

24:08

I knew that my benefits went up

24:14

to at least the end of May,

24:14

which was May 31. And so the

24:19

heart attack was, like third

24:19

week of May. So that was sort of

24:24

covered, but and then I said to

24:24

my wife, you know, can you call

24:29

because I had critical illness

24:29

insurance, I thought we should

24:32

see if, because that could pay

24:32

out and we you know, that we

24:36

probably will need that money

24:36

because I wasn't working. And so

24:40

it turned out that we first

24:40

tried to apply for it based on

24:44

the the easiest thing is the if

24:44

you had a coronary bypass,

24:49

that's one of the for heart

24:49

attack. That's one of the things

24:52

that you can apply for. And so

24:52

you just need the proof that you

24:56

had a coronary bypass. So you

24:56

need the surgical notes and all

24:58

that is some paperwork we had to

24:58

get together. But then as it

25:02

turned out, you know, the bank

25:02

and my insurance provider had a

25:07

different opinion of what my

25:07

technically last day of coverage

25:10

was, as the bad interbank my

25:10

employer was saying it was it

25:15

was May 31. And the Initially,

25:15

the insurance advisor said well,

25:20

his first day of retirement,

25:20

because that's what they called

25:23

it, you know, was June 1, which

25:23

was the day of my surgery and

25:26

technically could be covered.

25:26

Long story short, the bank was

25:29

right. And my coverage had ended

25:29

on the 31st. And so it was like,

25:34

at the end of the day, we just

25:34

had wasted some time. Not it

25:37

wasn't you know, you may say

25:37

hey, Well, they should have paid

25:40

out anyways, it was a day later.

25:40

But you know, there's got to be

25:44

rule somewhere when it covered

25:44

Jen. So I wasn't that freaked

25:47

out about it. Because, you know,

25:47

they said, Well, now you what

25:51

you can do is apply for the

25:51

heart attack. So then you had to

25:53

get different evidence. And so

25:53

whatever, there's two or three

25:56

documents we had to get

25:56

together, and then within a

25:59

month, yeah, we were paid out

25:59

the money that we had so.

26:04

So that so really, it started

26:04

the this, this thinking about

26:08

the financial implications

26:08

started in while I was in the

26:12

hospital, but to your point, it

26:12

was more toward the late summer,

26:18

when you know, because the

26:18

doctor, the surgeon had said,

26:21

Well, you can't go back to work

26:21

anyways, until maybe mid

26:24

September, you know, some steps

26:24

we taken years ago came into

26:28

play. And that's where I think,

26:28

you know, I wanted to some of

26:32

the points I wanted to make with

26:32

you on this call today. Our I

26:36

found as an educator, a lot of

26:36

the content over the years that

26:40

we did, was trying to get people

26:40

to understand the benefit of

26:44

actions that they would take

26:44

today that they wouldn't

26:48

actually reap the benefits of

26:48

potentially for years and years.

26:52

So that's true about, you know,

26:52

when you're in your 20s and 30s,

26:54

about retirement savings, it's

26:54

true when you start a family and

26:57

you start to add things like

26:57

hopefully, you know, life life

27:01

insurance that you don't, or, or

27:01

any other kind of, you know,

27:05

insurance, there's, there's so

27:05

many pressing needs when you're

27:09

starting out in life and in your

27:09

financial life with your

27:13

partner, you know, buy or rent

27:13

and you know, the costs around

27:18

that and cars and, and other

27:18

costs, and then you've got kids

27:21

and you've got their education

27:21

and their kids. So there's all

27:24

this stuff. And somewhere in

27:24

there, you still have to be

27:27

thinking about one day, if

27:27

everything works out, and you

27:30

stay healthy, you're gonna enter

27:30

retirement and you have to be

27:34

taken care of that, I kind of

27:34

put all these things that we

27:38

should talk about now is like,

27:38

planned risks that not just me,

27:42

but people like yourself and

27:42

other people that I would run

27:45

into. And just generally the

27:45

industry that we're in, we're

27:48

all about these were known risks

27:48

that could be mitigated against,

27:53

you can save for retirement, you

27:53

can buy different kinds of

27:57

insurance, you can do all these

27:57

things, you know, a lot of this,

28:00

these factors came in. And so

28:00

I'll take specifically how so

28:03

let's look at disability

28:03

insurance. If you're a two

28:07

person household or two working

28:07

person household, and you both

28:11

work for companies that provide

28:11

benefits, then you know, you're

28:13

in pretty good shape. Because

28:13

even if one of you were to lose

28:16

their job for a while you're

28:16

covered by the other person's

28:19

benefits, and so on and so

28:19

forth. In our case, I was always

28:22

the one, you know, for the last

28:22

couple of decades of the with

28:26

the with the benefits, because

28:26

my wife was freelance. So we you

28:29

know, that was a important part

28:29

to keep in mind, I'd been laid

28:33

off from other like, over the

28:33

course of my career, you know,

28:36

different things happened

28:36

companies by other companies,

28:38

there's mergers, there's up and

28:38

downtimes and stuff. So I've

28:42

been laid off two previous time,

28:42

and had gaps in between before I

28:45

landed, you know, sometimes it

28:45

was a quick transition to the

28:49

next job, but sometimes would be

28:49

a bit of a gap. And a friend of

28:52

mine had about 15 or so years

28:52

ago had gone through the same

28:59

experience. And had decided,

28:59

after one of those episodes that

29:04

he and his wife would purchase

29:04

some disability insurance, ex

29:09

whatever benefits they he might

29:09

have with his job. So the case,

29:14

yeah, in case at some point they

29:14

were ever in the situation where

29:18

neither of them were had

29:18

benefits. But you know, there

29:22

was an illness. And so it

29:22

prophetically proved to be a

29:26

terrific decision. And, you

29:26

know, and happened really just I

29:30

think if I remember just months

29:30

before he was diagnosed with an

29:33

aggressive kind of mental and

29:33

melanoma, Mike, a friend of

29:37

mine, he's still with us today

29:37

and having a successful battle

29:42

against his cancer doing really

29:42

well but still, you know,

29:46

drawing on his disability. So it

29:46

made me think that, you know,

29:52

this is a something that we

29:52

should we should do, because I

29:55

don't if it's just one of us,

29:55

that's has the benefits and fine

29:58

young unemployed. So we made the

29:58

decision back then to apply for

30:02

it. And then to make the claim

30:02

we had to wait three months to

30:05

post the event of the heart

30:05

attack and and the cancer

30:09

diagnosis and then we made the

30:09

claim and was accepted right

30:12

away given the situation. So I

30:12

started the fall off with you

30:17

know, some and I found myself pre kind of

30:19

thanking, you know, my wife

30:26

certainly thanked my advisor who

30:26

was you know, big part of the

30:29

decision to do this but my

30:29

friend who you know, had by

30:33

example had taught this and, and

30:33

even my younger self for my wife

30:38

and I for having the you You

30:38

know, we made the right

30:41

decision. And of course, I know,

30:41

you know this really well,

30:44

you're, a lot of these things

30:44

are like, there's times in our

30:49

life where we're going on and

30:49

things are tight right now, you

30:51

know, we're paying all this

30:51

money, like, you know, to for

30:54

insurance products, or, you

30:54

know, the premiums every month

30:57

or this and that, you know,

30:57

because we also had private

31:00

health insurance outside of our

31:00

benefits. And so that's one of

31:03

the, the other lessons for me

31:03

was private versus what's

31:08

provided by your benefits. And

31:08

the other thing, and, you know,

31:13

as you know, because I brought

31:13

in you into companies that I've

31:16

worked out to educate people

31:16

about these issues, and we've

31:20

written content on it, with your

31:20

help. Even if you have benefits,

31:27

it's so important to understand

31:27

what they actually are. And

31:30

within anyone's benefit package,

31:30

there's always different

31:34

options. So do you just take the

31:34

base life insurance, or do you

31:38

pay a bit more to double it up,

31:38

in my case, I had made a

31:41

decision that, you know, the

31:41

critical illness insurance,

31:45

which paid out against, you

31:45

know, certain critical

31:47

illnesses, including the two

31:47

that I had, I but I could only

31:50

apply to one another story. But

31:50

anyways, they, they pay it, you

31:56

know, part of my package

31:56

included one unit of it, so you

32:00

got one unit of it, which was

32:00

$25,000. And I decided to add to

32:04

pay for like add premium, and

32:04

Diggs get a second unit. So our

32:09

payout was, you know, 50,000,

32:09

which, but you know, I've had

32:13

friends that have done the same

32:13

thing, but they, they topped it

32:16

up to 100,000. And so yeah,

32:16

again, you're, you're sort of

32:21

paying it out more, but to go

32:21

back to the pay yourself, first

32:23

thing, it comes off your check

32:23

you just after a while you

32:26

operate life without knowing it,

32:26

and so on, having made the

32:29

decision, you know, more than 15

32:29

years earlier about getting them

32:34

the Disability Insurance, that

32:34

also helped. And, and with

32:39

disability insurance, there's a

32:39

couple of different kinds, you

32:42

know, there's the kind that we

32:42

got, I guess, is the little

32:47

little better, kind in some ways

32:47

called own occupation. So you're

32:52

protected against not being able

32:52

to work in your own occupation.

32:56

So you know, in other words, you

32:56

Oh, you can't do your normal

33:00

job, but you could go, you know,

33:00

do some other work or work in a

33:04

coffee shop, or whatever it

33:04

might be. So you're protected

33:08

against the your loss to be able

33:08

to do your actual line of work.

33:13

So that those two things were

33:13

definitely something I was glad

33:20

to have. had those decisions

33:20

come back and sort of say, wow,

33:25

this is the benefit in

33:25

hindsight. Now, hopefully,

33:28

people, you don't want these

33:28

things to happen, in order to

33:31

prove the value of the decision

33:31

you made.

33:34

That is sort of

33:34

the the perversion deal you're

33:36

making with your insurance

33:36

provider, which is, you know,

33:39

you win. If you make a claim,

33:39

you kind of hope that you don't

33:42

win, like you hope that you lose

33:42

that bet. Right. Yeah. Because

33:46

that means you have good health.

33:47

Exactly. So, but

33:47

there's just some things, you

33:51

know, it's tough to predict. So

33:55

how much was in

33:55

your emergency fund? Or were you

33:59

relying on like a line of credit

33:59

as your emergency fund? No, I

34:04

mean, about that.

34:05

Yeah. So with the

34:05

sort of straight savings account

34:08

emergency funds, that's the one

34:08

that was would be volatile. So

34:13

it would be you know, we borrow

34:13

against it, so to speak, to take

34:17

a vacation, or we would borrow

34:17

against the to help with a down

34:21

payment for an automobile and so

34:21

on and so forth. But over time,

34:25

and so there were twice, there

34:25

was twice in our life, where we

34:28

were carrying debt outside of

34:28

mortgage that was primarily line

34:32

of credit. In both cases, you

34:32

know, we tried to, when we were

34:38

younger, it took us longer to

34:38

pay that one off, but later, but

34:41

we still sort of focused on it

34:41

and prioritize paying it off.

34:44

And then later when we had it

34:44

again, you know, if, if, anytime

34:50

I would get a bonus, or you

34:50

know, some of the other kind of

34:55

extra beyond your salary

34:55

earnings, but I always look at

34:59

that kind of debt first. And

34:59

then and then now, you know,

35:03

say, plugged them into savings

35:03

and so on and so forth. So, but

35:08

we certainly didn't have you

35:08

know, you know, so we're talking

35:13

about less than $10,000,

35:13

probably in pure liquid

35:19

emergency fund at that time.

35:21

And, you know, I

35:21

want to we've talked about this

35:25

one I want to come across as

35:25

callous to listen when I raised

35:27

this question, but, you know,

35:27

when it comes to your health

35:32

diagnoses that you've had, one

35:32

of the considerations is that,

35:36

you know, your life expectancy

35:36

is probably not what you thought

35:39

it was, you know, 10 years ago,

35:39

right? Yeah, the trajectory of

35:42

your life, you've totally had to

35:42

reconsider it, including, you

35:46

know, quality of life. And, you

35:46

know, you've got a certain

35:50

amount of financial resources

35:50

that maybe initially were

35:53

planned for, you know, 2030

35:53

years of retirement, and maybe

35:57

you had plans for traveling in

35:57

retirement, more travel more

36:01

aggressively than then you might

36:01

do sooner. And so does the

36:06

calculus change in your mind as

36:06

to, okay, we've got these

36:10

resources. And there's a chance

36:10

that I could live, you know, a

36:14

long time. But I also sort of

36:14

feel like, you know, I'm on

36:18

borrowed time, I have had two

36:18

critical illnesses, do you think

36:22

about spending some of that

36:22

money more aggressively today to

36:26

sort of take advantage of the

36:26

time that you do have while you

36:30

are still having the quality of

36:30

life so that you could do

36:33

certain things,

36:34

you know, all of

36:34

those questions just flooded

36:37

into me in the early fall of

36:37

last year, and it and not

36:41

because the reason why they came

36:41

up was if you look at it, and

36:48

like there's a part A, and Part

36:48

B to the financial conversation

36:51

of the Part A was all the

36:51

immediate decisions that we had

36:54

to make. And, you know, and so

36:54

we got the, we had critical

36:58

illness insurance, okay, let's

36:58

apply for that got that paid out

37:01

with disability insurance apply

37:01

for that claim was accepted, we

37:04

needed to figure out some cost

37:04

management, and so on and so

37:08

forth. Now, everybody was

37:08

because of COVID had people out

37:12

of work, or, you know, they were

37:12

on serve, or whatever. So, so

37:16

this was a common practice

37:16

everyone was participating in,

37:19

and we'd made the decision to

37:19

get rid of one of our cars, and

37:25

just be a single car family, and

37:25

we were barely using that, you

37:30

know, in the COVID, right of the

37:30

year. So. So all, you know, that

37:36

these sort of practical plan for

37:36

understood about things we're

37:41

all being dealt with, in the

37:41

first few months after, then the

37:45

sort of, you know, existential

37:45

questions you're getting at,

37:49

sort of came up, and but they

37:49

become very real. And it's

37:52

bizarre, because you're, you're

37:52

facing, you know, sort of like

37:57

this, in some ways, sort of

37:57

terrifying question. And at, but

38:01

even those, eventually round

38:01

back to practical decisions that

38:05

you have to make, I started

38:05

thinking, Well, you know, what,

38:08

what am I going to do now?

38:08

Should I get a job? Or should I

38:11

not, you know, or strike

38:11

continue to try to pick up my,

38:16

my effort to do something

38:16

freelance. And, you know, I was

38:21

talking to the oncologist and

38:21

he's saying, you know, it's

38:24

disappoint, maybe just like, we

38:24

don't know where this is going

38:26

to go. But you've got your

38:26

disability insurance, you know,

38:29

why don't you just focus on your

38:29

health for a bit. And, and, and

38:32

that was generally advice I'm

38:32

getting from my friends and

38:34

family and so on. But 10, then,

38:34

so I thought, so then I think

38:38

about that, and I think about

38:38

well, I'd learned a term that is

38:42

common to people who are under

38:42

cancer treatment, and that, you

38:46

know, periodically, you have to

38:46

go for a scan that measures the

38:50

progress or, or hopefully the

38:50

reversal of your tumors and

38:54

everything. And so you develop

38:54

what's called scan xiety anxiety

39:00

around the skin. And so leading

39:00

up to the end of October, when

39:03

the first one was coming is when

39:03

I started thinking about that,

39:06

and I started thinking about it,

39:06

from a very young age, like the

39:12

sort of like, darkest thoughts

39:12

where, you know, I might not be

39:15

here that long. And so, like,

39:15

what do I need to take care of,

39:20

you know, for my family, in

39:20

terms of, you know, so I

39:24

actually had were conversations

39:24

with my financial advisor, and

39:30

one of her assistants, I had a

39:30

few of those where it was just

39:33

me on the phone, not Jeanette,

39:33

not my wife, or anything, I just

39:36

didn't want her to be sort of

39:36

hearing some of this. And as I

39:40

was asking sort of thing, so how

39:40

do we what do we have to do like

39:42

other things, I have to get an

39:42

order, what are they? And so and

39:48

I wasn't a mess, I was as I was,

39:48

you know, discussing these

39:52

things. And because I kind of

39:52

processed the thought that the

39:57

thought of it the terror of your

39:57

own life ending lot shorter than

40:01

you wanted it to, and then move

40:01

on to okay, but what do we do

40:06

between now and whatever, if

40:06

it's a number of years that I

40:09

can count on one hand that I

40:09

have left? According to the

40:13

stats kind of thing, then I want

40:13

to, I'm going to be doing stuff

40:17

with Jeanette, I want to, I want

40:17

us to go do stuff and you know,

40:20

it's which was what we were

40:20

planning for early retirement

40:25

years anyways, but now you're

40:25

trying to move it up to your

40:27

point. And then, um, but, you know,

40:28

that's just where the COVID

40:33

wrench gets thrown into a tube

40:33

because whatever plans or

40:37

thoughts or, or ideas that that

40:37

I I wanted to do well, they were

40:42

limited as they were for

40:42

everyone else in that, like, you

40:46

know, so we couldn't take a

40:46

couple months and go south for

40:49

the winter or anything like

40:49

that, because of the the

40:51

situation. Since then, I've been

40:51

had those, those conversations

40:56

have continued. And they,

40:56

they've kind of come full circle

40:59

to the point where in my last

40:59

scan that I had in January, it

41:03

had some very good news. And

41:03

then it showed a complete

41:08

disappearance of a lot of the

41:08

spots that they initially had

41:11

identified as potentially

41:11

cancer. And they said, either

41:15

the pills cleaned it up, or it

41:15

was post surgical scarring on

41:19

other or, you know, fluids that

41:19

were in your system, you know,

41:22

your chest at the time. And from

41:22

a money perspective, well, that

41:26

then throws the pump for Okay,

41:26

so I have the risk of not, maybe

41:31

not having a lot of, of of

41:31

runway left, but wanting to do a

41:35

lot of things which have to fund

41:35

now. But then there's also the

41:40

risk of the runway being a lot

41:40

longer than I thought it's and

41:44

it's as long as what it might

41:44

have been otherwise. In which

41:48

case, you know, the longevity

41:48

risk is there again. It's like,

41:54

I got going, at some point, it's

41:54

actually amusing to me, because

41:57

these are, these are things and

41:57

topics that I've written about

42:01

disgust about and, or whatever.

42:01

And it's always been

42:03

theoretical. And here I am

42:03

living these these very real

42:07

decisions, not that other people

42:07

haven't lived them before me,

42:10

I'm not the first person, but

42:10

there is certainly a change in

42:13

perspective from being the

42:13

person that in the past, I would

42:17

have interviewed, right?

42:19

No, no, I

42:19

totally get I mean, so many, so

42:21

many of these financial

42:21

decisions we make, they are so

42:24

abstract, because we're just not

42:24

connected to these future

42:28

potential realities. I mean,

42:28

you've seen the studies that

42:32

that show you that you ask

42:32

someone how much they want to

42:35

save for retirement, they'll say

42:35

x, you then show them a

42:37

rendering of what they will look

42:37

like when they're 70. And then

42:41

ask them how much you want to save for retirement, they'll say, well, it's greater than x,

42:43

right. And so the more or I

42:48

guess, the more concrete and

42:48

less abstract you can make those

42:51

those future realities, the more

42:51

real they get, and they affect

42:54

the decisions that we make. But

42:54

for the most part, people do

42:58

sort of look at these as more

42:58

abstract decisions, they Well, I

43:01

know, the right thing to do is

43:01

to, you know, make sure that

43:04

have proper disability

43:04

insurance, and to save for

43:06

retirement. But you know, you,

43:06

the gravity of that becomes

43:12

heavier as those things

43:12

approach. And when you have

43:17

these other realities that get

43:17

thrust upon you, it just

43:20

completely turns your world

43:20

upside down.

43:23

Yeah, that's a very

43:23

accurate description. Because,

43:26

you know, at the end of the day,

43:26

you're having to have these

43:28

human conversations with, you

43:28

know, your spouse, and your

43:31

children or adult, my case, my

43:31

adult children about these

43:35

different possibilities. And

43:35

then, you know, you get to a

43:39

point where you don't want that

43:39

to be your everyday life, you

43:43

know, you want to just sort of

43:43

see people and visit and enjoy

43:46

people and stuff. But, you know,

43:46

I, it's, it's, once you get

43:53

past, the terror, which is going

43:53

to be there initially, it's just

43:58

so odd how quickly you flip the

43:58

switch over to logical thinking

44:02

again, and it comes into play.

44:02

And you you start sorting

44:06

through actual decisions, you

44:06

have to make that have a

44:09

practical implication, on, on on

44:09

money and your lifestyle,

44:12

everything else. But, you know,

44:12

it can be and I can get, you

44:19

know, if you're the person who's

44:19

gone through the you might be in

44:22

a situation where you're at a

44:22

point where you can talk about

44:27

those things sooner than you

44:27

know, maybe your close friends

44:31

and your family are comfortable

44:31

talking about them with you.

44:36

And, you know, I've like, I've

44:36

been on walks with a friend or

44:41

where, you know, I blurted out,

44:41

well, you know, I might be here

44:44

in a couple years, and blah, blah, and I'm just sort of dropped that as a little phrase.

44:46

And I realizing, thinking about

44:50

it from the other person's

44:50

perspective. I say, Man, don't

44:53

say that, what the hell, they

44:53

don't want to hear that. Like,

44:56

and it's like so one of the most

44:56

helpful pieces of advice I got

45:02

was from a friend of a friend

45:02

boat, and both the friend and

45:07

this friend of the friend are

45:07

both financial services, people,

45:11

education, people, and so on.

45:11

And this sunlight, the friend in

45:16

between introduced the two of us

45:16

and this lady had a chat with

45:20

me. She's got lung cancer, the

45:20

same kind I have, and she gave

45:26

me some advice to pop to follow

45:26

a couple of patient support

45:32

groups that are on like

45:32

Facebook, and they're there. The

45:35

incredible thing Preet is that

45:35

there's these groups, and

45:38

they're actually specific, not

45:38

To the kind of cancer you have,

45:41

but right down to the kind of

45:41

mutation you have, and then the

45:46

pill that you're on. So I'm in

45:46

one of those groups, where

45:48

everyone has the exact same lung

45:48

cancer, the exact same sub

45:52

mutation, and then they're on

45:52

the exact same medication. And

45:55

so you're in that group, and

45:55

you're talking. Now, a lot of

45:58

the discussion is, Hey, does

45:58

anyone have, you know, this side

46:02

effect, you know, or, or

46:02

something, but there's also

46:05

people that are sort of saying,

46:05

you know, last night, I talked

46:07

to my family about X or Y, and,

46:07

you know, I realized, one

46:10

mistake I've been making is, you

46:10

know, I need to lay the

46:12

groundwork a little sooner as to

46:12

what we're going to be talking

46:15

about. So people are prepared,

46:15

you know, it's like, real

46:17

practical advice about how you,

46:17

you know, deal with your friends

46:22

and family and about these

46:22

topics. But I, I don't want to

46:27

give the impression that I'm

46:27

constantly just thinking about

46:30

the financial aspect of it, it's

46:30

just that your life and, and is

46:35

so tied to money decisions

46:35

throughout it, as you know, I

46:39

mean, you've dedicated your life

46:39

to educating people about this,

46:43

that, yeah, and when it moves

46:43

from the theoretical to the

46:48

highly, highly personal, it,

46:48

it's a very, very different

46:52

feeling.

46:54

I remember back

46:54

when I was an advisor, and I was

46:57

insurance licensed. And I

46:57

remember a senior advisor in the

47:02

office, he took me sign, he

47:02

said, you know, you really need

47:06

to think about insurance and the

47:06

role that it plays in financial

47:12

planning, and risk mitigation,

47:12

it's key, and he said, you know,

47:17

most advisors don't really

47:17

become true advisors until they

47:22

have to deliver like a death

47:22

benefit check. And so one of

47:26

their clients, you know, passes

47:26

away, and, you know, they had

47:29

insurance in place, they deliver

47:29

that check, and they see the

47:34

impact of that the person who

47:34

died doesn't, but, you know,

47:38

hopefully, they had at least

47:38

that peace of mind, knowing that

47:40

they had that coverage. But, you

47:40

know, especially when it's

47:43

unexpected. And he said, you

47:43

know, if you take a look at all

47:47

the advisors, and planners out

47:47

there who have had a client have

47:52

a critical illness, a death a

47:52

disability, and then there was

47:56

some plan in place that advise

47:56

it, that's when they become

48:00

really like an advisor or

48:00

planner, that's when it's kind

48:03

of like Neo, you know, all of a

48:03

sudden, he sees the matrix.

48:06

Yeah. It's like that, that, that

48:06

that moment, and that does feel

48:10

moment. Yeah, it doesn't just

48:10

happen just by thinking about

48:14

it, something has to happen to

48:14

you, for you to see the world in

48:17

a different way, kind of like,

48:17

you know, what you've described.

48:20

But I think the last thing that

48:20

I wanted to leave off on is, you

48:26

know, you've shared a lot of

48:26

advice for people, you know, the

48:31

takeaways and because you are,

48:31

you know, a financial educator

48:33

yourself, you know, what is sort

48:33

of the advice that you have for

48:39

any role, whether it's planners,

48:39

individuals, what do you want

48:45

people to take away from your

48:45

sharing this story?

48:49

Yeah, I think, um,

48:49

I guess there's, you know, I've

48:54

wrestled with that, because I

48:54

people, some have asked me that

48:58

question, not quite the way

48:58

you've asked it, but they've

49:00

said, you know, what's your,

49:00

your biggest takeaway over the

49:02

last, you know, several months,

49:02

even three quarters of the year

49:07

now. And it's, I think it boils

49:07

down to two different things

49:13

from a, sort of, from a sort of

49:13

purely sort of financial

49:19

education side point. It's like,

49:19

I remember, a friend of mine,

49:24

who was more of a pure marketer

49:24

at once said to me, you know, we

49:28

work in a category that that's a

49:28

low interest category, and I

49:34

said, Well, what do you mean by

49:34

that? But, well, you know, it's

49:36

like, we were in the entertainment industry or whatever, whatever, you know,

49:38

it's not hard to get people's attention because they're, this

49:40

is what they're craving. But

49:44

it's, it's remarkably Not

49:44

everyone gets up every morning

49:51

and because, gee, I really want

49:51

to get educated about actuarial

49:54

tables. Not that you have to go

49:54

that far. But it's, it's, it's

50:01

so it's a low it, there's a and

50:01

it's not people think there's a

50:06

binary choice between being

50:06

completely uneducated, and

50:10

becoming a financial expert. And

50:10

it's not it's just a path. It's

50:14

a path that you walk down. And

50:14

it doesn't mean you you're not

50:19

going to use professional

50:19

advice. You know, if that's what

50:21

you want. The bigger problem is

50:21

people you know, wondering if

50:26

they should use professional

50:26

advice and see if they'd if they

50:29

do they think they now have they

50:29

can shut off their education.

50:34

Sounds great. Oh, I have

50:34

somebody takes care of that. The

50:37

bank takes care of that. My

50:37

broker takes care of that. You

50:40

know, my financial planner or my

50:40

accountant, and never surrender

50:44

to any professional no matter

50:44

doesn't nothing to do with their

50:47

integrity, it has to do with

50:47

your own understanding of the

50:50

decisions you have to make never

50:50

surrendering and any of your

50:53

decision making and your your

50:53

ability to learn about these

50:57

things. And so that's what I've

50:57

tried to put, you know, instill

51:02

on my own kids. You know, one of

51:02

your sort of colleagues in the,

51:07

in the industry, Kelly Kean

51:07

wrote a book a couple years ago,

51:10

that I understand she just

51:10

updated with some COVID stuff.

51:13

Yeah, I think

51:13

it's called talk money to me.

51:15

Yes.

51:16

So it's a new

51:16

COVID updated edition, which I

51:19

think just launched on

51:19

Wednesday, yeah, the

51:22

24th. But the

51:22

original version, a couple

51:25

Christmases ago, I basically

51:25

bought all three of my kids a

51:28

copy, and I said, read this

51:28

book. And when you've completed

51:32

reading it, I'm going to give

51:32

you you know, X number of

51:35

dollars. So it was a, it was a

51:35

it was an incentive type deal.

51:41

But one of them, you know, had

51:41

completed it within a couple

51:44

months, the other one a few

51:44

months later, and the other one

51:47

took her more a year. But the

51:47

point is, it was, this isn't, no

51:55

one's saying you have to go get

51:55

your MBA in financial services.

51:58

But, you know, the more you

51:58

understand the basics, and, and

52:02

that means, and, as you know,

52:02

the most frustrating thing is

52:06

that people will have a benefits

52:06

package of work that they don't

52:09

really look at. And then they

52:09

don't understand, for instance,

52:13

the RSP matching, and, and so

52:13

they are literally leaving money

52:18

on the table, which is the

52:18

expression that we used in the

52:21

industry to sort of talk don't

52:21

leave money on the table. So you

52:24

mean, so you know, that you've

52:24

got to lower your zero to

52:28

include you pay every penny of

52:28

room that you have, that gets

52:32

matched. And then from there and

52:32

plan your your spending. So so

52:38

there's so so oddly, what that

52:38

it's that lesson of living

52:42

beneath your means, which is the

52:42

the so that you have some

52:46

flexibility to to do risk

52:46

mitigation, savings, and, and so

52:51

on and planning. So that's that

52:51

that was sort of one I was just

52:56

thankful for that I'd gotten

52:56

into that strategy. And again, I

52:59

told you before, I'm not great

52:59

at budgeting, so I didn't we, we

53:02

pay yourself first instead,

53:02

right, as a way of forced

53:06

budgeting. But then on the sort

53:06

of more sort of broader view,

53:12

when you think, you know, life

53:12

and everything. I think it boils

53:16

down to this, I've kind of made

53:16

this point that if my existence

53:22

is going to be a lot shorter

53:22

than I'd hoped. And I believe

53:27

me, I totally have hoped that it

53:27

won't be and there's reason,

53:30

actual, medical reasons to

53:30

believe that, you know, it could

53:34

be much better than it initially

53:34

appeared that it might be. One

53:40

should live one's life With that

53:40

in mind, and I want to live my

53:45

life, you know, by and I if

53:45

you've asked me what the biggest

53:50

takeaways, I've embraced

53:50

gratefulness in a way like I

53:53

haven't done for a long, long

53:53

time I am so I get so much joy

53:58

just for taking my dog on on

53:58

seven or 8k walk down a, you

54:03

know, a Creek Park, in

54:03

Mississauga, and, and, you know,

54:09

it's just, there's joy in that

54:09

there's joy and just spending

54:15

some time with my family. And

54:15

we've all had to endure this

54:20

crazy year, that stressed and

54:20

caused us a grief in different

54:26

ways. And for some people losing

54:26

loved ones as part of the grief.

54:31

But it is, you know, I would say

54:31

if people could embrace like, a

54:38

gratefulness and then also an

54:38

understanding of man every day

54:42

is a gift. And it doesn't mean

54:42

that, you know, you have to

54:46

climb a mountain every day or be

54:46

on a beach every day. But you

54:51

know, you still if you could

54:51

look at it. And I recognize even

54:57

when I say that every day is a

54:57

gift that there are times in my

55:00

life when I heard that message

55:00

to and my thought I understood

55:05

it and I, you know, openly

55:05

agreed with the person making

55:08

that point and Carpe Diem and

55:08

everything, but I guess there's,

55:13

as we've mentioned a few times

55:13

in this conversation, there's a

55:16

level of this is so real for me

55:16

now. That it just drives it

55:22

home, but that that, you know,

55:22

from a life perspective point of

55:27

view, that would be the thing

55:27

that I take away from this and I

55:31

tried other people to, to, to

55:31

benefit them by by espousing

55:37

that point of view.

55:39

Yeah, and I

55:39

think, to your first point, I

55:42

think something that has kind of

55:42

struck me as you were talking

55:46

about, you know, having benefits

55:46

at work. And, you know, your

55:50

sort of generation having gone

55:50

through a couple of layoffs

55:53

before. And they take a look at

55:53

the world around me now, and how

55:58

there has been a shift where the

55:58

liability has been shifted

56:02

towards the worker from the

56:02

company in terms of benefits, as

56:06

we have the gig economy, a lot

56:06

of people who are self employed

56:11

or working on contract, and they

56:11

also may not sort of take a look

56:16

at what the value of benefits

56:16

are at, you know, some of the

56:20

bigger sort of legacy companies.

56:20

And so, you know, this, this is

56:26

kind of a blind spot for a lot

56:26

of people, and they don't even

56:28

have benefit coverage, whether

56:28

it's private or through work.

56:32

And I think that's something

56:32

especially for people who are

56:35

more, you know, self employed.

56:35

And again, is that liability has

56:39

been sort of shifted on to the

56:39

individual is really something

56:43

people need to take into

56:43

account. I see a lot of people

56:46

who are self employed who don't

56:46

have disability insurance, and

56:49

you know, it's the first thing

56:49

I'll tell them, You need to get

56:53

disability insurance, if you're

56:53

self employed, or if you're, you

56:56

know, working for a company and

56:56

they don't have the appropriate

56:58

level of coverage, you can get

56:58

it piggyback plan, you can top

57:01

up and it picks up where that

57:01

one leaves off. But you know, I

57:07

want to say Darren, you're a

57:07

great friend. And I'm glad to

57:15

hear the latest round of news

57:15

you had told me about that. That

57:20

sort of the the recent progress

57:20

updates, so I'm really glad to

57:23

hear that and I look forward to

57:23

you know, swinging by when when

57:27

the pandemic is, yeah.

57:31

Grab it out. I'm

57:32

gonna drive over

57:32

to daddy's donuts pick up a box

57:35

of doughnuts and head on over.

57:35

I'm only gonna let you have one

57:38

because I guess

57:42

yeah, this for a

57:42

downtown trip for me to meet

57:48

you. It would probably require

57:48

us grabbing lunch at the

57:51

senator.

57:52

rates. Yes,

57:52

yeah. Can you do that anytime,

57:55

when that can happen again.

57:58

All right. Well,

57:58

we'll leave it there. Thank you

58:01

so much for coming on the

58:01

podcast to share your story. I

58:04

know a lot of people will will

58:04

benefit from it. So so thank you

58:07

so much.

58:08

Thank you every day is a gift.

58:16

If you want more

58:16

personal finance content, or you

58:18

have questions for me or topic

58:18

suggestions for the podcast, you

58:22

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58:22

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58:25

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58:25

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58:30

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58:30

which covers personal finance

58:34

and investing topics that are

58:34

global in scope, and a Canadian

58:37

specific channel as well. That's

58:37

it for this episode. Thank you

58:41

for listening.