0:00

You just it just

0:00

completely left your mind.

0:03

You've never thought about slap

0:03

chops ever again.

0:05

Never again. You

0:05

know, I'm a woman who

0:09

I can feel it pretty quickly if

0:09

I'm interested or not.

0:22

Cait Flanders is

0:22

back. Previously my guest on

0:27

episode 63 in March of 2018. She

0:27

is the author of Wall Street

0:32

Journal bestseller, the year of

0:32

less described by Vogue magazine

0:37

as a fascinating look into a

0:37

living experiment that we can

0:41

all learn from. It has been

0:41

translated into 10 languages,

0:45

and is sold more than 190,000

0:45

copies. her new book adventures

0:51

in opting out is a field guide

0:51

to opting out of expectations,

0:56

changing paths and leading a

0:56

more intentional life. He joins

1:00

me again to talk about how her

1:00

life has changed since writing

1:04

her first best selling book and

1:04

explained what her newest book

1:07

is all about. This is mostly money and I'm

1:17

your host Preet Banerjee, and

1:20

I'm very happy to have my friend

1:20

Cait Flanders back on the

1:22

podcast to talk about her latest

1:22

book, adventures in opting out a

1:27

field guide to leading an

1:27

intentional life. Now, in our

1:31

last conversation, we talked

1:31

about her previous book, the

1:34

year of less, and in that

1:34

conversation she denied having

1:39

ever owned a slapshot. Kate,

1:39

welcome back to the show.

1:44

What a great

1:44

intro. Oh my gosh.

1:48

So, I mean, the

1:48

question that all my listeners

1:51

have for you. Have you acquired

1:51

a Slap Chop?

1:55

I have not. I

1:55

have not restored

1:58

the club. But

1:58

for real, this is a legitimate

2:01

question. Have you thought more

2:01

about slap shops? Since that

2:05

conversation? I'm gonna say No,

2:05

really. So that you didn't think

2:11

after that conversation? What a

2:11

weird question to ask. And then

2:14

to ask it twice. And then you

2:14

just it just completely left

2:18

your mind. You've never thought

2:18

about slap chops ever again.

2:22

Never again. You

2:22

know, I'm a woman who

2:26

I can feel it pretty quickly if

2:26

I'm interested or not.

2:31

Okay, I'm just

2:31

saying like, you know, as far as

2:34

kitchen innovations go, I mean,

2:34

I feel like it didn't get enough

2:39

attention. I mean, you know,

2:39

you're bringing some fun into

2:41

the kitchen. you slap things it

2:41

chops it's gotten utility. Yep.

2:46

By the way, I've never I've

2:46

never used this like the number

2:51

one spokesperson because your

2:51

your big fat. You use it every

2:54

day. Number two, no one can talk

2:54

that guy. I think his name was

2:57

Vince who sold the Slap Chop

2:57

anyways. Alright. Oh my gosh,

3:01

enough about that. You will

3:01

never opt in to a Slap Chop. Got

3:05

it.

3:06

Thanks. I'll say

3:06

I didn't buy an interesting like

3:15

small appliance, I guess. Do

3:15

tell I bought a blender that

3:24

obviously blends cold things,

3:24

obviously. But that also

3:28

actually works as cooking

3:28

Blender as well. So it has like

3:33

built in heating. Oh, like it gets

3:35

so hot that you can like make soup and stuff like that. Yeah,

3:38

yeah. And so I'm

3:38

like, I made so much more soup

3:41

this year because of that thing.

3:41

Because I could put everything

3:45

in and it was done in 30

3:45

minutes. Interesting. So okay,

3:49

this is so off topic.

3:53

How does it like

3:53

does it have like a heating

3:55

element? Is it just the friction

3:55

that builds up? Or is it the

3:58

heat of the motor? How does that

3:58

work? How does it blend? And

4:02

it's why we talk

4:05

I'm not an

4:05

engineer, but what I would say

4:07

based on looking at it it does

4:07

have a heating function because

4:12

you can even just keep it warm

4:12

think about the blender how you

4:23

can don't refresh

4:27

okay okay let's

4:27

let's let's bring it back on

4:30

course hear a little bit enough

4:30

about kitchen innovations. Let

4:36

let's do talk about what has

4:36

happened since that that

4:40

interview and since that last

4:40

book, the year of less, leading

4:43

up to your your latest book,

4:43

which is adventures in opting

4:47

out. So tell us what's happened

4:47

in your life because when that

4:51

book came out, it became an

4:51

international bestseller how

4:54

many languages is it available

4:54

in now?

4:57

It's in 10

4:57

languages and

5:00

I only get numbers like every

5:00

six months. But last September,

5:06

they told me it had sold over

5:06

190,000 copies in English. Wow.

5:12

So yeah, it's it. I just like

5:12

it's so funny. That book I just

5:18

look now like, it's just like

5:18

doing its thing. It's just like

5:20

living its own little life that

5:20

I never would have imagined for

5:23

it. That's so cool. And it's on

5:23

its own adventure like I just

5:26

let it you do you book in that

5:26

was used a traditional publisher

5:32

right? I did. Yeah, I'm for that

5:32

one. I mean, for both I did.

5:37

That one I published with Hay

5:37

House, which is very much in

5:41

like the self help space. And

5:41

then for adventures. I'm with

5:46

little brown Spark. So which is

5:46

a

5:50

that's my

5:50

nickname. Oh, yeah.

5:56

Good. Good word.

5:56

Good. We're already working

6:00

together. Yeah, but there. I'm

6:00

like losing the word right now.

6:05

Like, what is the word under

6:05

publisher of like, imprint?

6:09

There we go. Right, an imprint

6:09

of Little Brown, which is under

6:12

the larger company of Hachette.

6:15

Okay. And, but

6:15

but tell me about how your life

6:18

has changed. You know, you've

6:18

written this book. It's done so

6:22

incredibly well. How has your

6:22

life changed since then?

6:27

Yeah, I mean,

6:27

probably a few different ways. I

6:31

think that on, maybe like the

6:31

book or work side of things. And

6:40

actually, it leads into also

6:40

money stuff, too. So that book

6:43

was so interesting, because I'm,

6:43

I got sort of a smaller advance.

6:48

And the beauty then of it, doing

6:48

really well, which I mean, you

6:53

never, you never imagine that

6:53

kind of thing. Like, I kind of

6:56

thought, you know, it'll sell

6:56

three to 5000 copies, maybe? I

6:59

don't know. And, yeah, so the

6:59

the beauty then of getting a

7:04

smaller advance is that I out

7:04

earned the advance, which means

7:07

I now collect royalties

7:07

throughout the year, and still

7:11

do. And so for, like, for work,

7:11

and then also for just finances

7:17

for the past few years, I've

7:17

been able to only work on like

7:21

my next book, nice, like, it's

7:21

been okay, that the only other

7:26

big job I've done was write

7:26

another book proposal, sell

7:29

that, and then get, like my

7:29

three payments for that advance.

7:34

That plus collecting royalties

7:34

has been, I've actually had the

7:38

two best earning years I've ever

7:38

had. Amazing and amazing. I also

7:43

like knew this going into 2021,

7:43

I'm like 21 will be different

7:47

because I don't plan on working

7:47

on like another book right now.

7:51

So I'm like, 2021 will be like

7:51

the year of figuring out what I

7:55

wanted.

7:57

But I think I

7:57

saw you did you put out a cold

8:00

somewhere. Maybe he's Africa,

8:00

where you're saying you're

8:03

you're interested in hearing if

8:03

there are any opportunities,

8:05

because you're looking for the

8:05

next thing to do, right?

8:08

Yeah, I'm just at

8:08

a spot where I'm like, you know,

8:12

the, the sort of path that we've

8:12

been shown about sort of content

8:17

creation online and the ways you

8:17

can make money online. It's,

8:20

that's never felt like the one I

8:20

wanted to take fully. Like, it's

8:25

so funny too, because, and that

8:25

meaning things like I could do

8:28

online courses, or this or that

8:28

and, and I actually have a

8:31

background in that I did, I

8:31

literally designed and set up

8:35

online courses for the Ministry

8:35

of Education and BC for five

8:37

years. So I I know everything

8:37

that goes into that. And it's

8:42

still like, maybe one day it

8:42

like still just doesn't feel

8:45

like the thing for me. And so

8:45

I'm, yeah, like this year in

8:52

general, I'm really exploring,

8:52

I've been just having different

8:57

conversations, I was connected

8:57

through my literary agent with a

9:02

screenwriting agent who

9:02

encouraged me to write a TV

9:06

pilot, which essentially is like

9:06

your resume into screenwriting.

9:09

Hold on a

9:09

second, hold on a second. A

9:13

spark is going off in my head

9:13

right now, because I have a

9:15

little grantsburg Yeah. Is there

9:15

gonna be a movie made about the

9:20

year of less? You know, I, I

9:20

don't know. I genuinely don't

9:25

know, come come approaching you

9:25

saying oh, my God, this is this

9:29

is perfect material for a movie right now.

9:31

So I wouldn't say that that has happened yet. I would say my agent has had

9:33

conversations where people have

9:36

shown interest but it's, it's

9:36

just never gone anywhere. And so

9:41

I don't have this expectation

9:41

that it ever will. I could it's

9:46

funny, I could write a TV pilot

9:46

or, or a film script that would

9:55

make that a thing or like could

9:55

make it more possible. Like if

9:58

you'd give someone an option of

9:58

what it could look like it

10:00

couldn't make it more possible.

10:00

But yeah, I don't know. So I'm

10:04

like, I'm just kind of exploring

10:04

other writing for myself right

10:09

now. It's like the idea of doing

10:09

another nonfiction book doesn't

10:12

feel like the thing for me right

10:12

now. And I, I'm just learning

10:17

this about myself in general

10:17

with work, I am someone who I

10:21

want to, like, learn something

10:21

new, try it go through the

10:26

process of of it being hard at

10:26

times, and like the growth that

10:29

comes with that. And then once

10:29

I've learned how to do it, I

10:32

don't want to just keep doing

10:32

it. Right. So if I were to do

10:36

another nonfiction book, I would

10:36

feel like I'm just sort of, like

10:41

churning it out. I don't want

10:41

that I don't want to just do

10:44

more of the same, I want to do

10:44

something really different. So

10:47

that's why this idea of like,

10:47

maybe it's a script, or I've

10:51

been reading a lot of kids books

10:51

this year, and like, maybe I

10:53

read a kid's book just for fun

10:53

and see what that's like. And I

10:58

don't know, I'm just I'm, I'm

10:58

exploring right now. And this

11:00

year feels like the year it's

11:00

fully okay for me to do that.

11:06

Because financially, I could

11:06

still be fine. If I didn't make

11:09

a ton of money this year, I

11:09

saved fortunately, because we

11:11

couldn't travel last year, I

11:11

saved a lot of money. And so

11:16

yeah, it's like 2021, I can just

11:16

kind of explore and so I'm

11:19

enjoying that for what it is.

11:19

Okay, so

11:23

let's, let's

11:23

talk about your last book,

11:27

adventures in opting out a field

11:27

guide to leading in intentional

11:32

life. Can you sum up in a

11:32

nutshell, what is the premise of

11:36

this book?

12:18

Yeah, I would

12:18

say, that's funny, if if we had

12:22

or changed the, or actually

12:22

honestly used one of the more

12:26

original ideas for the tagline,

12:26

it would have been more like a

12:28

field guide to changing paths in

12:28

life. Because I feel like that's

12:32

really what it is. Like, if you

12:32

really simplified it, that that

12:37

is what the book is. But I would

12:37

say the reason I wanted to write

12:40

it, and the main takeaway from

12:40

it being are who it's for is,

12:45

it's for the people who they're

12:45

making a change that maybe they

12:49

don't have anyone else in their

12:49

life who has made a similar

12:52

change. And so you really feel

12:52

like you're sort of walking into

12:58

or stepping out, and you're,

12:58

you're going to be the odd one

13:01

out now. And so you don't have

13:01

anyone to look to and say, you

13:03

know, is this gonna work? What

13:03

happened when you tried this.

13:08

And instead, you probably met

13:08

with a lot of hesitation from

13:10

other people who are really,

13:10

either they wouldn't do it, or

13:15

they're just like, family,

13:15

they're just nervous for you,

13:18

and they want you to be okay.

13:18

But I thought, there, there's

13:22

something incredibly isolating

13:22

about that journey. And there's

13:25

a lot of inner work that I think

13:25

needs to happen. And in order

13:28

for you to go through with it,

13:28

if it feels like the right

13:30

choice for you. And the biggest

13:30

piece I thought was that we

13:34

don't talk about is the downs of

13:34

that, like the the ups and the

13:39

positives of doing what's right

13:39

for you can be endless, but

13:43

there are hard parts that come

13:43

with it, depending on the choice

13:46

that you're making. Right? Like,

13:46

depending on how big it is, it's

13:49

like, you know, maybe you lose

13:49

some friends, maybe people just

13:52

don't relate with you anymore.

13:52

You could Yeah, I feel

13:56

ostracized by people. There's,

13:56

there's just, there are hard

14:00

parts to it. I don't think a lot

14:00

of self help books talk about

14:04

that aspect.

14:06

So okay, so

14:06

let's, let's peel back the

14:09

layers a little bit and talk

14:09

about, you know, what are the

14:12

things that people are opting

14:12

out, and I think you kind of

14:16

explained it by sharing what one

14:16

of the original subtitles would

14:21

have been, which is changing

14:21

paths in life. So if someone is

14:25

down, or living their life,

14:25

right now, the path that they're

14:29

on? How does one identify like,

14:29

is there? Are there some kind of

14:33

signs that say, How do I know

14:33

I'm not, you know, leading the

14:38

path there? What other than sort

14:38

of a general? I don't know

14:41

you're just unhappy or whatever.

14:41

But is there some kind of like,

14:44

how do you diagnose that? Okay,

14:44

this is something I need to

14:47

consider, like, what is that

14:47

process of diagnosing whether or

14:50

not you would even need to opt

14:50

out of something?

14:53

Yeah, I think it's great. You said the word unhappy because I actually think

14:55

that there's, there's things

14:59

that you might be feeling or

14:59

experiencing that could be under

15:02

that realm of being unhappy or

15:02

actually you opt out sometimes

15:06

when things are pretty okay.

15:06

And, and you still just get a

15:11

sense that there's something

15:11

different that you want to try.

15:15

So I would say one of the

15:15

coolest parts I almost wish I

15:18

had it in front of me, but one

15:18

of the coolest parts of working

15:20

on the book was that I talked to

15:20

a bunch of friends who just live

15:24

life a little differently than

15:24

they used to. That could mean

15:27

anything from you know, smaller

15:27

ones being like they they used

15:33

to use social media and now they

15:33

don't, or it could be quitting a

15:37

job or changing career paths.

15:37

entirely. It could be like one,

15:43

like the first one I ever did

15:43

really was deciding not to drink

15:46

anymore. So getting sober in

15:46

some way. It could be big it

15:52

could be moving to a new city or

15:52

a new country. It could be like

15:57

the one I talked about in the book is that I gave up my apartment to travel full time.

15:59

And and yeah, so just that they

16:03

can be really big and small. But

16:03

But the best part was asking

16:07

everyone kind of like, what were

16:07

the signs? Like, what were the

16:09

things that you notice that you

16:09

were experiencing or feeling

16:13

that helps you get to that place

16:13

of making that decision. And so

16:16

like under unhappy, there were a

16:16

couple common ones. One just

16:21

being it's like something that

16:21

you've been doing literally

16:25

feels like it's out of alignment

16:25

now. Like it used to be totally

16:27

fine for you. And now you're

16:27

like, oh, like morally or, like,

16:31

ethically or something like

16:31

something's like not feeling

16:34

right here anymore. I just this,

16:34

this is not feeling like, like,

16:38

maybe you've changed in some

16:38

way, and you didn't even realize

16:40

it until you start feeling those

16:40

things.

16:43

Well, I'll give you a perfect example. And I think you talked about in your

16:44

book, it's the shame of flying,

16:50

huh, yeah. 100% 100% I think

16:50

this is something that more and

16:54

more people are cognizant of the

16:54

impact to the environment of

16:59

flying, and now that we've had

16:59

the pandemic, and this, this

17:04

throws so many wrenches into the

17:04

mix, because on one hand, we

17:07

see, okay, look at the impact of

17:07

kind of like reducing the carbon

17:14

emissions severely for a short

17:14

period of time, we saw these

17:17

positive benefits to the

17:17

environment. And all of a sudden

17:20

these climate change targets

17:20

seem a look, it is possible. But

17:24

that was sort of forced through

17:24

lockdowns. But at the same time,

17:28

there's been a rise in how

17:28

people think about the

17:32

environment, and what they're

17:32

willing to do. As we see a

17:35

demographic shift to people who

17:35

are maybe willing to do things

17:38

differently than previous

17:38

generations, more more people

17:41

are either thinking about buying

17:41

offsetting carbon credits, or

17:44

just stopping flying altogether,

17:44

or at least being more

17:48

intentional about, alright,

17:48

well, if we're gonna go, let's

17:52

fly across the pond, but then

17:52

take the train, or public

17:55

transit or whatever. And so

17:55

we're seeing this big change.

18:00

And for me, you know, a few

18:00

years ago, I was averaging 75

18:03

flights a year. And I kind of

18:03

like airport life and flying and

18:07

all that. But in the last two

18:07

years, you know, you feel not

18:13

only this pressure from people

18:13

around you, but you also feel

18:15

like yeah, I mean, we've seen

18:15

now that we can get so much done

18:19

virtually. So there are maybe a

18:19

lot of trips that don't really

18:23

need to happen. So it's

18:23

definitely changing. I don't

18:26

know if I would call that so

18:26

much opting out, like, maybe I

18:29

don't know, you tell me. Because

18:29

it's kind of been this slow

18:34

boil. Right, that's led to this

18:34

behavioral change, as opposed to

18:38

Okay, I'm sitting down, I'm

18:38

making a plan of things I'm not

18:40

going to do. So. is there? Do

18:40

you make a distinction between

18:45

whether it's kind of like a

18:45

clean break or something that

18:47

manifests over time?

18:49

Oh, I, I mean, I

18:49

definitely think it happens over

18:52

time. And also that the, the,

18:52

yeah, the change does not have

18:59

to be all or nothing. Right? I

18:59

think that to also if it if we

19:04

make something have to be all or

19:04

nothing, that's then so hard for

19:08

us to imagine that we won't make

19:08

any change at all, because it's

19:11

too scary. And and so maybe it's

19:11

experiment for a while, maybe

19:15

eventually, you get to a place

19:15

where things are all or nothing

19:17

like I was really confronted by

19:17

that, especially because I've

19:21

been traveling in the UK where,

19:21

you know, extinction rebellion

19:24

rebellion was born out of and

19:28

what is its

19:28

rebellion?

19:31

Yeah, it's just I

19:31

don't know how to describe it

19:33

other than like, a massive

19:33

protests that would constantly

19:37

happen. And so you'd be in

19:37

London. And, you know, the

19:40

protests would get so big, they

19:40

would shut down bridges or shut

19:43

down some of the main streets of

19:43

London. And, and this was just

19:48

growing quicker and quicker and

19:48

quicker in 2018 when I was

19:52

there, and then 2019 still, and,

19:52

and, yeah, so I feel like Europe

19:58

was just ahead of the game,

19:58

maybe in sort of like the

20:03

climate change protests. And so

20:03

then going over there and

20:06

spending a lot of time there,

20:06

seeing this movement, meeting

20:09

people all over the UK, who were

20:09

vowing things like I'm never

20:13

going to fly again. And I'm just

20:13

sitting there thinking, Oh my

20:16

gosh, could I ever do like, and

20:16

right now I don't think the

20:20

answer is I'm never going to fly

20:20

again. But like you having a lot

20:25

of thoughts. I'm just like, what does it mean to be more intentional applying? I was so

20:26

confronted by though when I was

20:31

there and got really

20:31

uncomfortable and then for me

20:34

just had to get a place of like,

20:34

what does it mean because the

20:36

end of the day too, is Flying is

20:36

quite literally the worst thing

20:42

individuals can do for climate

20:42

change. It's literally the worst

20:46

thing that we can do. And

20:46

there's so much systemic stuff

20:51

that like is not our

20:51

responsibility, or we literally

20:53

cannot change. So you're kind of

20:53

like, you can't put all the

20:56

pressure on yourself, but it is

20:56

about figuring out what you're

20:59

comfortable with. Yeah, I mean,

20:59

that's the same thing, like sort

21:04

of the moral stuff. It could be

21:04

people who are deciding they

21:09

want to go vegetarian or vegan.

21:09

Yeah, it doesn't have to be

21:14

massive changes. But there can

21:14

be just these feelings that are

21:18

coming up thinking like this

21:18

isn't working anymore. There

21:20

could be bigger ones, like

21:20

you're not sleeping at night,

21:23

maybe your anxieties really

21:23

high. You know, or smaller, like

21:27

you go to work every day and

21:27

you're just counting down like

21:29

you literally walk in and you

21:29

start counting down like, okay,

21:32

eight hours, seven hours, 55

21:32

minutes, seven hours, 45

21:35

minutes. Like, there, there can

21:35

be orders noticing maybe who you

21:40

become when you're at work, like

21:40

maybe you become more angry,

21:43

more toxic. Like there are a lot

21:43

of things under the unhappy

21:48

realm that could be coming up

21:48

but also the happy like, you

21:51

could still be okay and want to

21:51

make a change. And that for me

21:54

was the decision to travel full

21:54

time. My life was fine. Like I

21:59

was living in Squamish, British

21:59

Columbia. I loved it there.

22:03

Where are you now?

22:05

Well, I gave up

22:05

my place so that I could travel

22:07

full time and then and then the

22:07

pandemic happened and I'm

22:10

hanging at my dad's house. Oh,

22:10

next. That's been me and my dad

22:14

and my my sister kind of having

22:14

to like, become much better

22:20

family in the last year and a

22:20

half. Right having to get

22:24

really, really comfortable with

22:24

hanging out together a lot.

22:28

Also, my dad's gone like

22:28

probably more than half the year

22:32

for work.

22:40

The conversation

22:40

with Kate Flanders continues in

22:43

just a minute. But first, a few

22:43

thank yous to listeners who left

22:47

comments on Apple podcasts.

22:47

Thank you to Arvind who

22:52

appreciates that the podcast

22:52

isn't just the same old spend

22:55

less than you earn advice. Well

22:55

thank my guests for that. I'm

22:58

lucky to get some pretty

22:58

interesting guests on the show

23:00

for sure. Que no Nick is upset

23:00

that I don't post weekly. I'm

23:06

going to disappoint you my

23:06

friend I probably going to piss

23:10

you off. Do you want to tell you

23:10

this after Episode 100, which is

23:12

the next episode I think I'm

23:12

going to take a short hiatus.

23:16

Apologies, and Danny's iTunes

23:16

and he likes all the episodes

23:22

but in particular, really

23:22

enjoyed Neil Pesce riccia. Neil

23:26

was a guest on episode 79.

23:26

Fascinating guy. And if you want

23:30

to hear more from Neil, he has

23:30

his own podcast called curry

23:34

books, which I highly recommend.

23:34

To everyone who leaves ratings

23:38

and comments on Apple podcasts.

23:38

I appreciate them. And I do read

23:43

them all. And now back to the

23:43

conversation with Kate Flanders.

24:01

Now, when it comes to your be

24:01

effects of the pandemic, we had

24:06

a lot of people who had, you

24:06

know, white collar jobs working

24:10

at a computer, they were able to

24:10

work from home. And now that

24:14

we're starting to enter

24:14

reopening, there are a lot of

24:17

people who are, you know, kind

24:17

of opting out of commuting and

24:21

saying, hey, it's great that the

24:21

office is going to be open. But

24:24

I'm kind of cool with like

24:24

staying home from working. Not

24:27

everyone feels that way. But

24:27

there are a lot of people who

24:30

are opting out of that commute.

24:30

And is this is this an example

24:37

of something that people are

24:37

opting out of because they've

24:41

now discovered that there's a

24:41

misalignment? I think before it

24:45

may have felt like there was no

24:45

choice you had to have that

24:48

commute if you wanted to not

24:48

have a mortgage that was super

24:52

unaffordable, just slightly

24:52

unaffordable, but not super

24:55

unaffordable. So you have to

24:55

live away from the office until

24:59

you commute and you know, it

24:59

slowly suck the life out of you

25:02

every day, for years and then

25:02

getting those two hours back,

25:07

even though it's been replaced

25:07

with some other you know, things

25:10

to deal with because of the

25:10

pandemic. think people are

25:13

looking at life differently

25:13

because now they realize like

25:16

hat looks like the world can

25:16

actually keep on turning. If I

25:20

work from home from a laptop and

25:20

keep on doing what I need to do

25:23

without having to be in the

25:23

office. Have you noticed any

25:27

other changes in people's

25:27

behaviors as a result of the

25:30

pandemic and wanting to take

25:30

different paths in their life?

25:34

A lot. I mean, we

25:34

could joke about one which is

25:38

that divorce rates seem to go up

25:38

last year. Oh, I think so i

25:42

think so I

25:43

wouldn't be surprised. That's one of those things where it could could you

25:44

could tell me the numbers. And

25:47

if they went either way, I would

25:47

believe you. Because one, things

25:52

are getting so unaffordable for

25:52

people that ending a

25:55

relationship can be prevented

25:55

because of financial reasons or

25:59

like, Listen, we can't afford to

25:59

get divorced, we're just gonna

26:01

live together in misery. Or

26:01

because people are now forced to

26:06

spend more time together, and

26:06

they're reevaluating their goals

26:09

spending more time, whatever it

26:09

is, I can see them being unhappy

26:12

to the point of ending relationships.

26:14

Yeah, yeah, I've

26:14

heard of Yeah, a lot of people

26:18

who have ended relationships in

26:18

the last year, I think has been

26:20

one. people wanting to move to

26:20

different cities, I think on the

26:24

commuting side of things,

26:24

actually. And for affordability,

26:27

there's been a lot of people

26:27

moving to smaller towns, right,

26:31

I understanding like, well, I

26:31

can work from home that I'm

26:33

going to go somewhere where it's

26:33

cheaper to live, and I have a

26:35

better quality of life.

26:37

Yeah, I mean,

26:37

the main point for a lot of

26:39

people is what's the internet

26:39

speed? It displays? Like, could

26:43

I actually work from here?

26:43

Because if so I'm there. Right?

26:46

But if it's spotty, then you

26:46

know, I can't put on my list of

26:49

places I would live. That's how

26:49

important the internet is.

26:51

Yes. Well, and then it's been so hard, obviously to because so many

26:53

people are moving to small towns, and all those prices are

26:55

going up. But anyways, yeah, I

27:00

think that, you know, the

27:00

pandemic was so hard for so many

27:04

people. And then for those that

27:04

it didn't impact too negatively

27:09

it it really was a period of a

27:09

bit of a reckoning and also

27:14

like, how would it not happen?

27:14

you're forced to slow down if

27:17

you've never slowed down before

27:17

and sort of asked yourself,

27:20

like, what am I doing? What?

27:20

I've just been going going going

27:25

with this for so long, I didn't

27:25

really think twice, like, what

27:28

do I want to be doing? How do I

27:28

want to spend my time, I think

27:32

that it's been a reckoning for a

27:32

lot of people,

27:35

you know, to

27:35

your point. So my partner, she

27:42

was living in the UK, and then

27:42

during the pandemic, and it

27:45

being locked down here with me,

27:45

which is fantastic. It was the

27:47

longest stretch of time we've

27:47

had together continuously, just

27:50

like 14 months. Amazing. She got

27:50

a job back in the UK, and she

27:55

just left couple weeks ago. And

27:55

when she was you know, applying

27:59

because she finished her

27:59

postdoc, and she's looking to

28:01

get, you know, a tenure track

28:01

position at, at universities

28:04

anywhere, right? early stage

28:04

careers, there's like, I'll take

28:07

a job anywhere. And so she

28:07

applied to a university in the

28:13

UK. And she got the job. And

28:13

well, they offered it to her,

28:18

and she was nervous about what

28:18

my reaction was going to be. And

28:23

I think because partly because

28:23

of the pandemic, and also

28:26

because I've never had a five

28:26

year plan like I've never I

28:29

mean, listen, neuroscience, auto

28:29

racing, finance, all this other

28:32

stuff. I mean, I've never had to

28:32

plan the same. And so she was

28:36

worried that I would be maybe

28:36

hesitant to to possibly move.

28:41

And so she was like, oh, should I take this job? I was like, What are you talking about? I've

28:43

already started looking at places, I cannot wait to sort of

28:45

explore more of the world. And I

28:49

feel that the pandemic was a bit

28:49

of a wake up call in that

28:53

respect. I'm very privileged,

28:53

very lucky, I haven't been

28:55

negatively affected. And I don't

28:55

want to get to the end of life

29:00

and say, yeah, never lived in

29:00

another country. And it's

29:05

interesting, you I believe you

29:05

referenced Ronnie wares book

29:09

regrets of the dying. Funny

29:09

story about that I was asked to

29:13

give a commencement speech at U

29:13

of T. And it was back in I think

29:17

it was 2009 2010. And I just

29:17

read an article by bronnie ware,

29:23

about where she talked about.

29:23

For those who are not familiar,

29:26

she wrote a book called regrets

29:26

of the dying. She's a palliative

29:28

care nurse. And she basically

29:28

collected these stories about

29:32

what people expressed in their

29:32

last weeks of life when they

29:36

knew it was the end. And there's

29:36

a level of you'll have to mute

29:42

me when you're Yeah, no worries.

29:42

Wow. I would say that the bail

29:47

ladies here. Typically what that

29:47

means, no problem. Oh my gosh.

29:53

So there's this, you know, this

29:53

moment at the end of people's

29:56

lives where they open up to a

29:56

degree that maybe they never

30:00

have before, and they open up to

30:00

her. And so she compiled these

30:03

lists of of these regrets. And I

30:03

had read that article before she

30:07

wrote her book. And I was like,

30:07

man, I can't wait to check out

30:11

that book. But at that article,

30:11

she summarized what those top

30:13

five regrets were of the dying.

30:13

And those things really

30:17

resonated with me what she said

30:17

and since that time, and that

30:21

made it into the commencement

30:21

speech, because I was like, I'm

30:24

too young to have any life

30:24

advice. I have to get some from

30:26

someone else. So I put in my

30:26

speech, but I never want to go

30:32

back and think about all the

30:32

things that she said and some of

30:36

the things that she said was

30:36

people you know, they all See, I

30:40

wish I'd spent more time staying

30:40

in touch with friends, you know,

30:44

college buddies, whatever. No

30:44

one ever says, oh, man, I wish I

30:48

spent even more time at work,

30:48

that is not a thing that matters

30:52

in the end. No. And so that

30:52

coupled with, you know, but 15

30:58

years ago, I was pretty ill

30:58

coupled with me being a

31:01

hypochondriac, I thought, you

31:01

know, I was done. And so that

31:04

changed my perspective on life

31:04

from that point forward. And so

31:08

I feel like I opted out of the

31:08

traditional paths in life A

31:12

while ago. But I don't know if

31:12

that was, I opted out of things

31:17

where I just have not opted into

31:17

some of those traditional paths.

31:20

Because again, I've never had a five year plan.

31:21

Yeah, you just

31:21

are the, the person who like

31:25

knew that you just knew, whereas

31:25

like, I think on on my end, I

31:30

was so influenced by my family

31:30

and the things that they had

31:34

said to me, and, and, you know,

31:34

honestly, a large one being, I

31:38

remember growing up and being

31:38

told over and over again, that

31:40

like, travel was just not really

31:40

an option. Like I had to work

31:47

and save and do the things by

31:47

the place. That was the thing.

31:53

And so no one presented the

31:53

option to me of actually, you

31:57

could work, save instead for

31:57

like retirement so that you're

32:02

comfortable later in that way.

32:02

But that, like there is an

32:06

option where you can just work

32:06

to live. And that it doesn't

32:12

have to I don't have to

32:12

accumulate maybe physical

32:15

assets, I can accumulate money

32:15

instead. So that I'm comfortable

32:19

later in a different way that I

32:19

can live my life in whatever way

32:23

I want. Like they could have

32:23

just encouraged the savings

32:26

portion. And, and suddenly, you

32:26

know, if you're doing that

32:30

great, go go do whatever you

32:30

want. Yeah,

32:34

I think that's

32:34

that's a really important point.

32:37

Because one of the things that

32:37

I've noticed with people who

32:40

have maybe trouble getting

32:40

started saving for whatever

32:44

future medium term long term is

32:44

that they see savings as some

32:49

kind of expense, they don't

32:49

connect it to some kind of

32:52

future outcome. And I think when

32:52

people make more of that

32:55

connection, it gets, I wouldn't

32:55

say it's easy, but it's a little

33:00

bit easier to sort of cope with

33:00

that reduction in spending now.

33:05

Because it's tied to some kind

33:05

of future outcome that is going

33:08

to have more purpose, drive

33:08

happiness, or what have you. And

33:12

again, these can be long term

33:12

goals, they can be medium term

33:14

goals, for some people at saving

33:14

up just enough so that they can

33:19

opt out of whatever career

33:19

trajectory that they're on,

33:22

because the reality is it does

33:22

take money to exercise some of

33:25

these choices. Yes. But along

33:25

that vein, and tied to that, you

33:31

mentioned homeownership. We know

33:31

now that there are a lot of

33:35

people who are just they're

33:35

frozen out of homeownership in

33:39

some of the big cities in

33:39

Canada, pretty much forever.

33:41

Like it's we've passed the point

33:41

of no return for for a large

33:44

number of people. And yet there

33:44

still exists the societal and

33:47

generational pressure to say,

33:47

well, you're not an adult,

33:50

unless you're a homeowner, or

33:50

what have you. And you talk

33:54

about how some of the hardest

33:54

parts of opting out is dealing

33:58

with the pressure around you.

33:58

What's your advice to people who

34:01

are making big whether it's, you

34:01

know, resigning the fact that

34:06

they're just not going to own a

34:06

house in certain cities? Or

34:09

maybe they'll never be a

34:09

homeowner, or anything else that

34:12

they might be opting out of, or

34:12

changing paths to? What's your

34:16

advice with how they can be more

34:16

successful?

34:19

Oh, my gosh, I

34:19

mean, I could give a very short

34:22

answer. And and a longer one, I

34:22

would say the short answer is,

34:27

most of the time, whatever

34:27

people are saying to you is just

34:32

what they would be saying to

34:32

themselves. Meaning that, you

34:36

know, if someone's pressuring

34:36

you to do one thing, or if you

34:38

say, you're going to do something different, and they're trying to, like, say things to

34:40

stop you or to scare you from

34:44

it. It, it's just because they

34:44

couldn't imagine doing that for

34:48

themselves. There's also an

34:48

aspect I think, with parents,

34:51

where parents just have this,

34:51

it's just built in, they worry,

34:56

they want you to be okay. You

34:56

know, they just do and so it's

34:59

scary to, for a parent to hear

34:59

that you're gonna do something

35:03

that they again, it's they just

35:03

don't get it like it's just not

35:06

something that they would have

35:06

chosen for themselves. And so

35:09

they can't really imagine all

35:09

that goes into that decision

35:12

making. But yeah, it's like

35:12

often times it has almost

35:18

nothing to do with you and

35:18

everything to do with what they

35:21

would or wouldn't do for

35:21

themselves. Whoever it is that

35:24

is giving you this advice or

35:24

just kind of adding this

35:27

pressure. I look at things for

35:27

myself. I look at things for

35:34

myself from a place of awe,

35:34

honestly, like What am I going

35:41

to feel most comfortable with

35:41

homeownership does especially

35:45

like I'm in BC, it's not an

35:45

option. Unless I buy with

35:49

someone, it's just not, I guess

35:49

I could buy a condo just doesn't

35:53

really interest me. And so why

35:53

would I pressure myself? When

36:01

it's, I don't know, I look at it

36:01

like, what is the thing that

36:03

would actually excite me? Like

36:03

what would feel exciting to me

36:05

instead is to kind of live and

36:05

travel the way that I do. But to

36:09

save for the future, so that I

36:09

because I'm self employed, I'm

36:14

like, I have to be able to help

36:14

myself later in life. And but

36:20

like to like to speak to bronnie

36:20

ware stuff like to enjoy life

36:24

now. I it I don't know. It's

36:24

like, we are because of Canada's

36:32

on affordability is that piece

36:32

of what can you afford to do?

36:37

And what would actually excite

36:37

you to save, like, savings or,

36:41

or investing in any way

36:41

including property? It's like,

36:44

if it doesn't excite you in some

36:44

way, or if it doesn't energize

36:48

you, or feel like you're moving

36:48

forward in a way that you want

36:50

to? Like, how can you do that I

36:50

didn't know how to save for

36:54

things until I had a goal that

36:54

excited me

36:58

to quit my job.

37:01

For myself,

37:04

I think there's a lot of people who share that goal.

37:07

I had to save up,

37:07

you know, months and months of

37:10

living expenses and lineup work

37:10

as well. And so I did not feel

37:14

comfortable quitting my job

37:14

until I knew I could cover

37:16

myself for you know, like six

37:16

months. And I had six months of

37:20

work lined up. And so I was kind

37:20

of like, Listen, if I get to do

37:23

this for six months, that will

37:23

be so cool. Like, I will not

37:28

regret trying that for six months.

37:29

And so how long

37:29

ago was that when you left the

37:33

corporate job?

37:34

Actually, it was

37:34

I was thinking it was a to the

37:38

day, but it was the 26th of

37:38

June, six years ago. Wow. So

37:44

2015

37:47

Yeah, gene

37:47

regulation. So when you when you

37:50

did make that leap? What did you

37:50

did you have any idea what the

37:56

next six years would have looked

37:56

like for you? Oh,

37:58

my gosh, no, talk

37:58

about not having a five year

38:01

plan. I had a six month plan for

38:01

you. I had work lined up for six

38:05

months. So I knew I had pretty

38:05

solid income for six months. And

38:09

then I knew I had savings as

38:09

backup. And no and also to like

38:16

I that first year, I worked a

38:16

lot because I think you have

38:21

that like early self employment

38:21

fear. If you say no, all the

38:25

work is going to dry up. When

38:25

you learn like no, it's okay to

38:28

say no to the things that don't

38:28

feel good. And, but stay open

38:31

and things will come and so I

38:31

worked like too much in that

38:36

first year. And then July of

38:36

2016. So a year in is when I got

38:47

my first book deal. I got it the

38:47

day before my birthday. And, and

38:54

everything. Everything changed.

38:54

Like that financially. I still

38:58

had to freelance and do stuff like that, because like I said, my first book, the advance was

39:00

smaller. It wasn't enough to

39:03

like live off of. But yeah,

39:03

everything about work and

39:09

projections forward was like,

39:09

Well, I didn't know what I was

39:12

doing before. But let's see.

39:12

Let's see where this goes.

39:15

So the advance

39:15

on your next book after that as

39:17

a multiple of your first advance

39:17

how much bigger was the second

39:21

advance?

39:22

It was three times and I'm not afraid of numbers, though. My first one

39:24

was 35,000. And my second was

39:28

100. Oh, nice. And yeah, nice.

39:28

Although, like it comes with its

39:33

own thing of I have to it's

39:33

gonna take so much longer to

39:37

outline that now. Right. So

39:37

yeah. Really? Yeah,

39:42

you'll go I know what you mean, I know what you mean. And I, I've never put too

39:43

much stock into the advances

39:48

only because, you know, the

39:48

amount that a publisher takes

39:53

book and with the author gets, I

39:53

mean, even if you never out earn

39:57

your advance. They're doing

39:57

fine. Yes. So I was never really

40:02

concerned about that for

40:02

advances for a book. But I can

40:06

certainly see when you get to

40:06

advances of that level, a six

40:10

figure advance, you probably

40:10

feel a lot more pressure, right?

40:14

There's more

40:14

pressure, but also like I was

40:18

really proud of that. There was

40:18

also some interesting stuff for

40:22

me mostly in my head and also

40:22

because I know a lot of guys and

40:25

a lot of white guys who have

40:25

gotten book deals. And like

40:28

their first book deals being 125

40:28

real is also the Yeah, so

40:32

there's also this

40:33

pink celebrities

40:33

are just no unknown.

40:35

No total unknowns

40:35

are people like I'm like I have

40:38

a much larger following I like I

40:38

do not know how that happened.

40:45

And so just there's this piece

40:45

of me that's like, almost like I

40:48

want more for women. Like it's

40:48

not even a like it's an I was

40:53

not ungrateful, but there's just

40:53

this piece of being like, How

40:55

fascinating that my first book

40:55

did so well, and I can't even

40:58

get what those guys are getting

40:58

on their first ones. That's

41:03

fascinating. Fascinating is a

41:03

charitable word.

41:09

Yeah, that's,

41:09

uh, yeah. I think the best word.

41:15

Yeah, more more

41:15

pressure, for sure. I think at

41:19

the same time, it's like, like

41:19

you said, publishers are doing

41:22

okay. And also, they take their

41:22

own calculated risks. Right,

41:26

like, Yeah, so? Yeah,

41:26

absolutely. I worked for it. So,

41:32

yeah, good for

41:32

you. I'm so happy for you and

41:36

your success with with writing

41:36

and whatever you're going to be

41:39

doing next. And I have to thank

41:39

you, for the signed copy of your

41:44

book for Cheryl's mom, she's

41:44

over the moon about that. And I

41:51

think you just started a

41:51

podcast. So this is the you

41:53

know, this is the part of the podcast where you get a commercial to talk about remote,

41:55

whatever you want. Right. And if

41:58

I'm not mistaken, you just

41:58

started a new podcast where

42:02

you're out in nature, I hear it

42:02

is the most soothing podcast on

42:08

the internet. So tell us more

42:08

about that.

42:11

Yeah, you know, I

42:11

will say that this project felt

42:15

like an opt out in the sense of,

42:15

like, I've never heard anything

42:20

like this. Thinking that I just

42:20

want to go outside and share a

42:27

little bit of like, where I'm

42:27

at, or something I'm learning or

42:32

a tool that's like helping me

42:32

that week. I think that I

42:37

haven't shared publicly other

42:37

than through the two books. It's

42:40

like I stopped blogging, I kind

42:40

of stopped doing everything that

42:43

I used to do. And I haven't

42:43

really shared publicly in about

42:47

three years. And I think I've

42:47

also like, in that time, I've

42:52

done a ton of therapy, I've just

42:52

explored so many different

42:56

things and traveled and done

42:56

done all these things that I'm

42:58

like, I don't think that I've

42:58

like integrated all of that and

43:02

who I am now into my work in a

43:02

way where were people know, came

43:07

to get to know me again, almost.

43:07

And I thought I, I, my original

43:13

thought for the podcast, and I

43:13

do believe we will be able to do

43:16

this one day was to go outside

43:16

with a friend and record a

43:20

conversation with a friend and

43:20

not an interview. Not like, tell

43:26

me all these different things.

43:26

But like, let's just like

43:28

explore where we're at right now.

43:30

Oh, I think that

43:30

would be very successful. for a

43:35

couple of reasons. I don't know

43:35

what it is. But the more

43:41

connected online we are also

43:41

feel the more alone people feel.

43:45

And there's so many places where

43:45

I've seen where people just, for

43:51

example, there are people who

43:51

continuously watch the same

43:55

syndicated TV shows over and

43:55

over and over again, because

43:59

they are people that kind of

43:59

feel like in their little world

44:02

like friends, there's tons of

44:02

people who watch friends, many,

44:05

many times over Seinfeld,

44:05

another example. Are you

44:08

familiar with the concept of MCQ

44:08

bangs? Oh, tell me. So these are

44:13

videos on YouTube, where people

44:13

just take a giant meal and they

44:16

eat it on video, and then talk.

44:16

And you're just kind of hanging

44:21

out with them while they eat. I

44:21

think I haven't watched a lot of

44:23

them. I've been told the concept

44:23

and these videos are insanely

44:26

popular. But that's all is I'm

44:26

thinking to myself, why the hell

44:30

whatever. Yeah, but it's a big

44:30

thing. And so I think yours

44:35

actually makes a lot more sense

44:35

because it's a conversation

44:40

you're exposed to the sounds of

44:40

nature, super calming things

44:44

that we don't take the time to

44:44

enjoy. Because the world is so

44:48

electronic and connected and we

44:48

don't have a say I would say

44:53

this is free time, like you

44:53

know, just where you would go

44:55

out and just do nothing. Right

44:55

and you just sort of be an exist

44:59

in the world without checking

44:59

your phone without, you know,

45:01

reading something on Twitter or

45:01

a website you just there. And so

45:06

I think having that experience

45:06

with people especially live in

45:08

such a beautiful part of the

45:08

world. I think that's something

45:11

that would be very attractive to

45:11

people. So I'd be interested to

45:14

to hear those those

45:14

conversations with friends in

45:17

the in the wild.

45:18

Yeah. And like I said, the conversation piece of it feels so important. Like,

45:20

what does it look like to drop

45:23

into just a conversation that

45:23

two good friends are having

45:27

where rather than an interview

45:27

where a person especially

45:33

because I want to do them with like friends. So it's like I don't want my friends to feel

45:35

like they have to be on a pedestal and be some kind of

45:37

expert on something All right,

45:40

I'm just like, we have

45:40

interesting conversations. Is it

45:42

okay if I hit record on one of

45:42

them? And, yeah, I think it'd be

45:49

like he's like soothing or

45:49

calming. So just think there

45:53

could even be things in it up

45:53

like, think you could learn a

45:56

little bit about, you know, what

45:56

it takes to be really present in

45:59

a conversation. You can learn

45:59

communication, like there's a

46:04

communications aspect of it. And

46:04

yeah, but I anyways, I couldn't

46:08

do that now. And I don't really

46:08

think I'll be able to do that

46:11

until like, 2022. And that's

46:11

okay. But I, I just kept sitting

46:15

with it being like, I want to

46:15

start something like I want to

46:19

start. And yeah, so I started

46:19

opting out the podcast, they're

46:24

usually typically short, like

46:24

2030 minutes. So it's been a

46:27

couple that have been longer but

46:27

and it's just me outside,

46:32

essentially talking to myself.

46:32

20 or 30 minutes. I think I'm

46:38

enjoying it on my end, both

46:38

because actually, I find it

46:41

quite relaxing. But going back

46:41

to the first point, like I feel

46:44

like I'm expressing myself more

46:44

fully than I have in the past.

46:50

And it's just nice to feel

46:50

comfortable doing that.

46:54

So what's the

46:54

podcast called opting out,

46:56

opting out, and I guess the

46:56

title of the book is clear, it's

47:03

adventures in opting out and you

47:03

can find that anywhere books are

47:07

sold. And Kate, I just want to

47:07

say it's a pleasure as always

47:13

chatting with you always have a blast.

47:15

Always Always. I

47:15

can't wait till we can hang out

47:17

and honestly, it'll probably be

47:17

in the UK because my ultimate

47:20

goal is to get over there

47:20

sometime next year as well. Like

47:24

on a more permanent basis.

47:25

Nice nice well,

47:25

things go according to plan I

47:29

should be there probably in the

47:29

spring maybe earlier because

47:31

Canadian winters are you know,

47:31

pretty brutal. And UK are still

47:36

miseries but it's not. Bc winter

47:36

do, which is Yeah, it's still

47:41

doable. All right. Well, I'll

47:41

see you then. Thanks so much,

47:46

Kate. Thank you. If you want more personal

48:08

finance content or you have

48:11

questions for me, or topic

48:11

suggestions for the podcast, you

48:15

can follow me on Twitter or

48:15

Instagram and ask away. It's the

48:18

same handle in both cases at

48:18

Preet Banerjee, also have two

48:23

YouTube channels, you can

48:23

subscribe to my main channel

48:26

which covers personal finance

48:26

and investing topics that are

48:29

global in scope, and a Canadian

48:29

specific channel as well. That's

48:34

it for this episode. Thanks as

48:34

always for listening