0:01

Franklin leather doesn't just want to find the

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best unmade scripts and Hollywood.

0:05

He wants to change how Showbiz finds

0:08

Talent, imagine

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trying to put together a roster for

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an N.B. With just

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the people known personally by the owners

0:15

of the team. You're not going to win game. you're

0:18

probably not going to score

0:20

art

0:25

of power podcast from WBEZ,

0:28

Chicago. Chicago"

0:31

It. Would actually this corner right here

0:34

on, six eighty

0:36

one is thirty seven, story so

0:39

is ill of solely different color

0:42

pain grew up pain I to be? Wells public

0:44

housing complex in Chicago built

0:46

in nineteen thirty nine and named after

0:48

the famous and tendency to this is

0:50

this not what is likely will, also apart.

0:54

From everybody would be and apart. when it's

0:56

hot she remembers parents

0:58

would sit and chat on the kids paid

1:01

Sometimes when it was really high speed

1:03

sleep in the persisted for free.

1:05

We wanted to ask him up or like think pillows

1:08

and I will be up there playing their music injury

1:10

can be is when. she was first

1:12

growing up growing the said The deep she loved

1:14

how family and friends are always. By

1:17

a monkey bars swings

1:19

by the key is like accident walk

1:22

down, the block and do something that I was

1:24

supposed to do, was ask for

1:26

neighbor calling my grandma is don't know

1:28

what tell us why your lines they have

1:30

received no, quickly and

1:33

I'll get in. trouble for him

1:35

to talk it's easy to see why she

1:37

loved the place and behind

1:40

me is where my children came home

1:42

to when they were born which is torn

1:44

down now I'm used,

1:46

to treat like their which their grandmother

1:49

actually planet and they are big

1:51

and so now

1:53

It sounds really beautiful name.

1:55

was once upon a time

1:58

The turning around the eighties and can.

2:00

And benign, the his pains is a lot

2:02

of people were having hard time finding more.

2:05

roughly the guys in downtown in the last episode

2:08

economy wasn't working for them.

2:10

People of rural Illinois, she said

2:13

she felt, "forgotten gotten a dozen" The

2:15

tightening and social.

2:16

There was programs, more rules and restrictions,

2:19

ways to keep so called undeserving

2:21

people from getting aid.

2:23

The remember a caseworker coming by and noticing

2:25

her grandmother's? Right, read meal.

2:27

They like, so you get a rare palace

2:30

you can afford that was all these

2:32

children, it's like they're not deserving

2:35

of rare thing and nail polish.

2:37

He says the city start fixing the public

2:39

housing she drew a thin and fell into disrepair

2:42

and. many ways it was another for

2:43

Tanya, a four hour drive away

2:46

from Brown County. The day.

2:48

The didn't end up with the sweepstakes.

2:51

What's happening a what I began

2:53

to see his arm? the monkey

2:55

bars coming down the clothes

2:58

lines coming down and that is

3:00

so on the police can

3:02

thrive

3:04

The back ways where a wouldn't be,

3:06

you know any insofar as their have clear

3:09

path.

3:13

The don't know if this is literally true

3:15

that the city tore down the monkey bars and closes

3:17

lines to make.

3:18

The police but. i

3:21

do think it's a good metaphor from

3:23

what we do not

3:24

Across national local governments, a

3:27

smaller focus on support and services

3:29

for the poor and bigger focus

3:31

on policing and prison. Painted

3:35

she noticed bunch of neighbors getting shipped

3:37

away to prison young people peters

3:40

she, says she ended up incarcerated

3:42

to at least fourteen. and

3:44

then three more times than adults for

3:47

crimes he relates back to poverty and for battle

3:49

with drug addiction you know

3:50

They say is have a place of corrections,

3:53

but if corrections is

3:55

to start, it's start before

3:58

what do community. These me.

4:01

Stay healthy and how she.

4:04

imagines it could have been to

4:42

Then calm him with a price The cheater, who

4:44

became Illinois governor for.

4:45

Nineteen seventy seven to ninety one

4:48

you, may remember him from the last episode his

4:51

administration There's not a sweepstakes

4:53

but, he also with the governor who cut back

4:55

on parts of the budget He said there

4:58

wasn't enough money coming.

4:59

Well you had cut spending the, mercy

5:01

only answer, does that hurt people,

5:03

absolutely hurt school,

5:06

districts sir and

5:08

or well for advocates would start beating

5:10

you on the head the minute you touch the welfare budget

5:13

but that's. where the money's you

5:15

have no choice

5:17

This is from the series of archival

5:19

interviews of Thompson reflecting

5:21

back on his time in office and,

5:23

in the same series of interviews where claims

5:25

there wasn't money for welfare or education,

5:28

he also boasted about fully but the most

5:30

prisons state. history according

5:33

to illinois issues magazine From nineteen

5:35

seventy three to that.

5:37

The ninety six Illinois, appropriated

5:39

moon The point: Two trillion

5:42

dollars to expand prison capacity.

5:44

One fifth of a total capital spending.

5:47

What you can't do, half

5:49

way things when you're talking about law

5:51

enforcement, that is

5:54

very, first obligation. of

5:56

them to protect our

5:58

said It's more

6:00

important than anything else because,

6:03

if you don't have the that you can't

6:05

have anything else

6:07

"I was trying to make sense of this the way

6:09

he describes cutting one type of spending

6:11

as a difficult choice and

6:14

ramping up another kinda spending as inevitable"

6:17

Wrestling would how these things were tied together

6:20

in the era of the prison, though. We

6:22

shot as someone who studied both types

6:24

of forgot Tony as. They didn't homes

6:27

and the neighborhoods that people and. Then

6:29

often I'm from.

6:31

Both and Gilmore, well, good gave

6:33

you a.

6:34

What he's getting and I'll detail of it's a we're doing,

6:36

so this is part of up podcast we're doing,

6:38

Gilmore is geography profession. Uni

6:41

the city University of New Or. And

6:43

you just published book? The abolition

6:45

geography essays towards liberation.

6:48

You know, phone activists and his and a lot of on

6:51

the ground work around prisons. The

6:53

idea of sometimes can be dense to

6:55

follow at least for me, but

6:57

I really think it's worth it because the give

7:00

a framework of help all the different things

7:02

happening in this era overlap

7:04

and inner city.

7:05

I told her about these quotes from Governor Thompson,

7:08

and in some senses he's describing a budget.

7:10

The Haitian.

7:12

What else you are you telling us what

7:14

he thinks the job of government is?

7:17

And I'm curious when your studies how

7:19

you saw. Hum government.

7:23

In in and the public. Seems

7:25

how they thought about what the job government. Was

7:28

around the eighties and nineties when there was this person

7:30

them.

7:31

The chef from,

7:35

a somewhat robust ah

7:37

welfare, state designed

7:40

to provide opportunities

7:43

and protections in general

7:46

Her and over time into

7:49

the car Searle's state

7:52

in which all opportunity

7:54

and protection narrowed into

7:56

very, very specific.

8:00

And distorted view

8:02

of what quote unquote safety

8:04

is with is to say it's police

8:06

and prisons and guards.

8:10

In other words, the definition of.

8:12

He started shifting from.

8:15

one

8:15

It made me included things like

8:17

fighting poverty and expanding education

8:20

to. wonder was more narrow the metal

8:22

The thing and prison. Getting

8:25

back to the way Reagan's Crime Commission

8:27

was described not to find that

8:29

causes of crime but.

8:31

to control it

8:35

That shift from a focus on

8:37

services to law enforcement, it

8:40

had profound effect on collecting mean

8:42

who'd find yourself no longer with

8:44

family and the Parthenon hot day. The

8:47

in prison.

8:48

Multiple sentences that years away

8:51

from her three children. More

8:53

said, "Let pain going away with

8:56

a loss for the whole" The community. The

8:58

want to labour in the workforce her

9:00

unpatriotic time for family neighbors.

9:03

And each person who's taken out of the neighborhood

9:06

mix the community. Little weaker you.

9:09

may remember christopher knocks christopher had locked

9:11

up in pontiac The friend of

9:13

Anthony Gay, the guy who had sentence,

9:15

go for seven years to over one hundred.

9:18

Knock, is now that? His family.

9:24

It's good to meet you too.

9:27

I went out to see him and his mom's house

9:29

similar my center.

9:30

Yeah, your name is the melon, not

9:33

specifically for voice.

9:35

We sat in the living room eating doughnuts

9:37

I don't know what flavors got here so

9:39

let's say for, Living

9:41

Room is set up so if you're on the couch bunch

9:44

of family portrait stare back at you on

9:46

the wall on the table on the shelves.

9:49

like looking into

9:50

That's why I'm smiling face at a shit

9:52

hits his eyes, all my going to have

9:55

itself as email and Christopher knocks lived

9:57

in different public housing them pain.

10:00

Out on Chicago's West.

10:01

I'd look. just like pain chris

10:03

said he got a rest That and incarcerated

10:06

at really young age old

10:09

about now are those is

10:12

for. those the as There.

10:16

The only trouble when he was nine that got

10:18

him send away what happened.

10:19

Why because I know

10:22

Snus? the our code saying

10:24

awesome wellness For

10:27

that and nine years old, this annual and. The,

10:29

yeah. He says he spent

10:31

thirty days and a juvenile jail.

10:33

The market been at least ten years old by then

10:36

because that was the youngest.

10:37

The kid the captain the jail thirty

10:39

and you know as soon as it,

10:42

always die they have more legal problems

10:44

you know like you know this. this

10:47

don't i was really worried was care for him

10:51

This got in trouble over and

10:53

over again. The charges got

10:55

more. Syria and he got older. Eventually

10:58

and night team. The shot a man

11:00

given carjacking. The let

11:02

them survived Knox.

11:04

Hard with attempted murder, his brother

11:06

was there too. And about eventually

11:08

ended up a Pontiac prison together.

11:11

Round up in solitary when she said.

11:13

Turned him into a quote.

11:15

Monster, did you read his mental

11:17

health and he act it out?

11:19

The charges spinning on an officer another

11:21

time for kicking an officer. served

11:24

over two decades behind bars, he

11:26

was gone twenty six years, you know,

11:28

it's best if this time, mad

11:31

cow. The other times he was away from home,

11:33

you know?

11:34

And I know can't get paid

11:36

time that what does that loss?

11:38

Hi mean t'and. and

11:41

The role of lot of holidays

11:43

and family gatherings in

11:45

a lot of memories and stuff.

11:48

There's a lot allow tsunami

11:51

you know are those.

11:53

of iraq and iraq can smile makes was it

11:55

is there's so much You

11:57

know the. I was that.

12:00

Good a deal. them

12:02

our interest talk about how he missed spot.

12:04

There's funeral and they talk about Chris,

12:06

his sisters to nail. When he left, the youngest

12:09

was just.

12:09

Six. Years old, though, when he and

12:11

his brother came back, she was in our thirties

12:14

and they miss, said brother sister

12:16

thing, you know, had a brother out Ali, my

12:18

sister loves. You know they've noodles oodles,

12:20

of license for it really didn't

12:23

get to know each other, and now

12:25

they are, like struggling

12:27

with, you know, gone back and forth. , to get

12:30

to, know each other and she talks

12:32

about this is sisters Chris. starts

12:34

crying than weeping he

12:37

wipes the tears from his face with his teacher Takenaka

12:41

my over the years. That an allegation.

12:43

Beat him, put him in a cell bottom feces

12:46

embarrassing strip searches. Never

12:49

seen him upset like this. The

12:51

takes few moments. To breed. His

12:54

mom gets him wet wash cloth.

12:56

That come on the back of.

12:59

a good it's is the

13:03

Original

13:10

says.

13:13

The bar with the have made to

13:16

why they get says, do that.

13:23

I was. so

13:26

Then.

13:32

This is one of his sister's has been having

13:34

trouble lately reminds, him of himself,

13:38

and he feels like if he'd been around he could

13:40

really relate help. out instead

13:42

of worrying that the same thing that happened to him

13:44

will play out all over again He

13:47

says he does what he can now got a good job,

13:49

pays, wow helps that his mom. But

13:52

he mourns what was lost. What

13:54

continues to be lost? The

13:56

relationship with his sister that he can't

13:59

quite figure out how to. The pair. The

14:01

be so now is his life.

14:05

The lab I hope die

14:07

of. You know? At

14:11

this point both.

14:13

When Chris got locked up, the thought

14:15

of that was about more than him. The

14:18

about his family, his neighborhood.

14:21

Part of what Ruth Wilson Gilmore thinks

14:24

about when she thinks about places. The is

14:26

how they relate to each other.

14:28

The geographer it, she asked.

14:31

Resources or move from one area to

14:33

another, and why?

14:35

You struggle to answer this question when it comes

14:37

to the to forgot tone, yes? Where

14:39

exactly is being extracted from Chicago

14:42

neighborhoods? The people go to prison.

14:44

What's that resource this transferred to

14:46

rural areas so I saw

14:48

it and thought and saw it and thought for a

14:50

long time and I finally got

14:53

to the answer and the answer is

14:55

time now.

14:57

The time.

14:59

As a Resource we all who

15:01

are alive have and it's

15:03

resource that cannot be renewed. When

15:07

you've lived minute of your life. That minute

15:09

is gone. It never comes back. What

15:11

prisons

15:13

and jails and detention centers,

15:15

do Is

15:18

turn the

15:20

time that's

15:22

extracted from the people who

15:25

are held against their will in

15:27

those facilities that time

15:29

is turned into money money,

15:31

to pay people, to do, prison Sports,

15:34

be guards to deliver food to

15:36

present doors. The money obviously

15:38

comes from somewhere. Where

15:41

does it come from? It comes

15:43

from federal state, Municipal

15:46

budget, and

15:48

that huge amount

15:50

of money, which should

15:53

belong to all of us to

15:55

keep the monkey bars up and the clothesline

15:57

flapping with laundry.

16:00

And Dad has been diverted

16:03

in order to turn that commodity

16:05

time which, nobody

16:08

who's in prison wanted to give up

16:11

into the ability

16:13

for people who works

16:16

for the prison system or who sell

16:18

goods and services to the prison

16:20

system to make

16:23

their living and their profits

16:25

and their lives

16:28

These and years of people's

16:30

lives time, extracted

16:33

from them and turned into jobs

16:39

Happened when those jobs are

16:42

under it? On

16:44

February ninth and this year something.

16:46

Big happened upon yet Correctional

16:48

Center. That the prism of Christopher

16:51

Knox with.

16:51

harsh rate it stashed,

16:53

the bus is called up unexpectedly,

16:56

and he would hold start loading. minutes will

17:00

leave local union president and local pontiac

17:02

lieutenant We're not account but.

17:04

he drove back in got to the

17:06

At night time I, went out there and

17:08

saw the buses myself, staff

17:11

were helping to they're told to and you have

17:13

to have to do told, that is

17:15

on confusion on a concern lot of

17:17

uncertainty as. to why seven

17:20

buses just pulled up

17:22

Dozens of man were being sent from

17:24

Pontiac to another prison. That's

17:27

to do with. The I no one understood

17:29

what was happening. The become suspicious.

17:32

I was to see doing this in the dark of night. Would

17:35

a up to sit silently? Do you

17:37

see said the move or because of A? The

17:39

water problem. Not

17:41

long after that.

17:43

That said they learned of a draft

17:45

plan made by higher ups and the

17:47

and. The Department of Corrections. The

17:49

propose. On, yeah.

18:10

Do we we're wrapping up the season? The mode and.

18:12

Got word there was going to be a big

18:14

town hall. Not potential

18:17

closure. A part, the pontiac.

18:19

That's a prison were major Susan Prentice

18:21

was interrogated by state police about

18:23

cover ups and abuse.

18:25

The prison with the to mental health workers so

18:27

they face Rasmussen racism. The

18:30

way to the state's attorney prosecute men

18:32

in solitary with mental illness. Though.

18:35

The drove there. The

18:37

hot game around a hundred people packed

18:39

into the school at for somewhere.

18:43

in prison t shirts

18:44

Like one that said Honey, at Correctional

18:46

Center established eighteen seventy

18:49

one history speaks for

18:51

itself. the mayor

18:53

a state senator in the county official

18:55

all sat on stage The pictures

18:58

of the present flashed on.

18:59

The screen machine A,

19:04

we'll show them all, along

19:13

they opened up a might get the friend that, the auditorium

19:16

and people came. down to speak one

19:18

man who worked at speak walmart The

19:20

closing will affect the whole county and

19:22

beyond because the present with such a.

19:24

The economic driver soldier

19:27

who's all the shops.

19:30

The following the sound

19:32

of this county very.

19:35

new folder liver suppose you

19:37

mind your phone or iraq and where you're wrong

19:39

bringing the silence

19:47

How did have a long history in the state

19:49

needs Pontiac as much as

19:52

on it needs to put another?

19:54

man's everytime major from the present very

19:57

talks about how pontiac was an essential piece

20:00

Operating system, if necessary, for

20:02

everyone safety lady because it's where the quote

20:04

unquote. Worst of the worst to get

20:06

sent. Staff are specially. The

20:08

same handle more dangerous situations.

20:11

You ask any other prison across the state

20:14

glad Pontiac is there because they

20:16

don't wanna deal with some the and makes it nice

20:18

guys deal with every single day.

20:25

The people the can haul were angry about

20:27

how hard it. Then the information about

20:29

what's happening each I can

20:31

relate there's a lot of clarity

20:34

as. the department has said some infrastructure

20:36

at the prison in bad shape It

20:39

understand even though they tried to.

20:41

People soap shrinking the president makes

20:44

sense.

20:45

Any promise no one who works there

20:47

will now be laid off.

20:49

There is a bigger tend to going on the,

20:52

prison population is dropping,. stickley

20:55

down some piece of nearly fifty thousand

20:57

and twenty thirteen to about twenty

21:00

thousand and twenty one

21:02

I'm an artist who they are not all of

21:04

it besides. plush [Graph]

21:09

And another in. daily Then.

21:20

Have been successful in the past.

21:22

A different plan to close Pontiac failed

21:24

in two thousand and nine when the community

21:27

rallied.

21:28

Then Governor issued a statement saying

21:30

keeping the prison open mic's six

21:32

hundred job state. Families

21:35

would not get routed and Pontiac

21:37

will maintain one of its largest sources

21:39

of revenue. The situation

21:42

is different now with the shrinking prison

21:44

population and, their political

21:46

movements to define police presence

21:49

They lead to close all for his.

21:51

Christopher knocks meeting, unsurprisingly,

21:54

is one of the people who would like to see pontiac

21:56

prison gone. Wherever they're,

21:59

prison there. That long.

22:03

Both bills were like allows which was

22:05

on anybody's as the I may you know went

22:07

to a liar there is to say is,

22:10

inhumane. sweetest

22:12

people like the tweets if

22:14

Then when they say, look, we need to keep this prison open

22:16

because it's especially designed to

22:18

be secure his. People is

22:20

the all segregation soon. They

22:23

say it makes people safer, what are you? The

22:25

it may or may they make people dangerous.

22:29

I'm prime example with

22:31

it.

22:32

You can read the malls the and now

22:34

you see you courageous this, you

22:37

can write this much all terrain you kept

22:39

me to see it for twenty four hours, seven days

22:41

a week, three on C spa days, you're

22:43

totally isolated what you don't you're going

22:45

to get. So you can

22:48

close in it, will? A safer, but

22:50

yes. Is that

22:52

long?

23:00

When it comes to these closings, he seems

23:02

like the battle. In a clown.

23:05

Rural why areas on the inside black

23:07

urban areas on the other couldn't, be

23:09

more upset, but

23:11

gilmore women

23:12

She's not just an academic geographer

23:15

it's is also an activist she works

23:17

with roots in California like critical

23:19

resistance and the California Prison

23:21

More Time Project and, it's

23:23

taken in taken difficult mission

23:25

The try and convince people and world

23:27

towns the prisons aren't

23:29

in there and for. All right. He

23:32

argues that City'so so economic benefits.

23:34

The home.

23:35

The most recent study I decide to

23:37

prisons did add jobs and stable

23:39

ones at that, but a spillover

23:41

effect of lifting the whole economy wasn't

23:44

particularly strong. Still,

23:46

even beyond the economy. You have to

23:48

ask what are those jobs actually? For

23:51

people. You're about to retire.

23:53

I am have a. fourteen

23:56

working days left i think The

23:58

Howard or and I met over video.

24:00

Right before he was about to retire from his job

24:02

at Illinois River Correctional Center,

24:05

oh my gosh, I can't believe you don't know the A.

24:07

There might be like if I was that close to becoming

24:09

no five wins a minute I've

24:11

been town down for so long and my

24:13

schedule so crazy sometimes it's hard to keep

24:15

track. We talked to he was at work

24:18

in non does. That room blank

24:20

an institutional. Illinois

24:22

River opened in nineteen eighty nine. Part

24:25

of big prison. The one on.

24:27

How would you got a job or? Seo, we just

24:29

eighteen years old.

24:31

Like almost everyone I spoke to who worked in the prison

24:34

the. just got to him Sure

24:36

they were the assault, some staff. There

24:39

was also all the other stuff you

24:41

witnessed. People and present attempting

24:43

suicide.

24:45

Medical emergencies for the

24:47

bottom line is that every facility is

24:49

his own little city, so

24:51

we don't have a fire department we

24:53

don't have. A rescue squad

24:56

per se I mean it's the security staff

24:58

the officers that are responding to everything

25:01

until. help arrives so

25:04

you name it they've seen him when he

25:06

was young i am how it wasn't bad

25:09

into talking about trauma let's sing

25:11

that kind of thing on repeat does to you You

25:13

know, people were making excuses, a bunch of

25:15

crap.

25:16

Then of Dad died by suicide and

25:19

he was forced to wrestle with issues of mental

25:21

health. However, is a tough

25:23

looking guy speaks plainly,

25:26

stare straight ahead? There's

25:28

a softening and as. When he talks about

25:30

this. He

25:32

started thinking about officers, he worked

25:34

well. Suicide she's heard about.

25:37

My, he himself smoking and the

25:39

stress of the job.

25:40

And the mindset

25:42

for years has ban suck it up, drive

25:45

on, make sure your work tomorrow, and I need that

25:47

answer for fifteen minutes ago.

25:52

How would you got really involved?

25:53

The program figures pure support

25:55

the fellow officers. One hope

25:58

is just. The the number of suicides.

26:00

According to the union, there were a dozen

26:02

in two thousand. The team.

26:08

You're more the academic an activist

26:11

has. a quote i think about a lot Well,

26:14

I did conscious. They could finish

26:16

it.

26:18

The way by Herder explain it is

26:20

sort of like dance tweeting:

26:22

"Life is precious, I say not

26:24

using the death penalty for not

26:26

putting someone behind.

26:28

Ours forever shows.

26:30

life is trisha

26:32

Amy do that as a society

26:34

as ever met his. shows the

26:36

You mean? horses

26:39

it

26:39

A million people most likely to try

26:42

and solve their problems with deadly force

26:44

I can. The street A. The

26:46

legislation. The issue.

26:50

The other thing want to say.

26:53

It has to do with the opposite

26:55

of were life is precious life is precious

26:58

and that is to say what.

27:00

we see Working

27:02

itself out his

27:04

human sacrifice. Though

27:07

that guard that you talk to

27:09

his no last. Being

27:12

sacrificed than others.

27:14

Even though the power between

27:17

them. Isn't really starkly different

27:19

when they're at the facility?

27:22

I understand her to be saying. The

27:24

might have not shown as precious. They

27:26

will be treated as pressure. People

27:29

on the prison system on both sides of it. Her

27:31

her.

27:33

One way Gilmore arrives, and surprising

27:35

conclusion. One about the to

27:37

for that, tanya.

27:39

They didn't homes and the urban places

27:41

where many people on them come from welfare.

27:43

The while their one place and what

27:46

we've done is convinced ourselves

27:48

with their two places, but they're not they're

27:50

geometrically discontinuous, but

27:52

they form. The kind of constant

27:55

place. Did you forgot to own years

27:57

or, of course? The different. The library,

27:59

it. Miles and miles of high well. The

28:02

Gilmore his both.

28:03

This is where economically abandoned

28:06

and in both places were sacrificed

28:08

their lives, devalue sneak prisons.

28:11

Another face, a tangled together. Nine,

28:14

so.

28:15

That and how I think as a geographer, and

28:17

I try to convince people that that's what geography

28:20

is not lines on a map.

28:22

He's a bit of mine stretching, see what

28:24

she's talking about. By

28:26

imagining these two places is one. Shared

28:29

space. The prison at it's center. He

28:31

made for teeth that there's a potential

28:33

for solidarity. The way to

28:36

work together. Imagine something

28:38

different for everyone. The that

28:40

included I'm not interest. The

28:42

finding household. I

28:44

don't mind that you have good.

28:46

Pay and benefits, I mind

28:48

that you have them for sitting

28:50

and watching somebody in a cage, what

28:53

if we agreed that you

28:55

keep the pain benefits and do something

28:57

else with your time and talents?

28:59

I was really interested to see if the people

29:01

a pontiac would buy into this idea would.

29:04

people in prison towns supported

29:06

change if they were offered different jobs

29:09

The far as I can tell for the people

29:11

Pontiac at least the ones who decided

29:14

to show up at that town hall is.

29:16

about more than jobs for them The

29:18

about a fundamental.

29:19

Leaf. And what they do guess

29:21

it's a prison is necessary evil that

29:24

is needed in society leave,

29:26

the local union president, said

29:28

he wasn't interested in some other job.

29:31

As our pride what we, do I know

29:33

people that grew up here pioneered the, whole life

29:36

they know, the, presence here to

29:38

serve the idea of public? Service

29:41

the, to get. to provide to your

29:43

neighbors to and

29:45

even your family For me

29:48

and a lot of the prisons. The spoke

29:50

at the town hall.

29:51

Believe in the context of this current site,

29:54

it was a matter of principle. I'm doing

29:56

job. They believe get.

29:58

Then when I asked me if there was the.

30:00

ensure for another kind of job like

30:02

Gilmore suggested" That

30:04

it would only interested in Pontiac as

30:06

a prison. The max minutes.

30:10

That and twenty have to be some

30:12

folks who. will Math is

30:14

so testers. The about.

30:20

eight

30:20

The only mainstream news outlets were interviewing

30:23

activists who wouldn't be fun, police

30:25

and seasons abolitionists like. Gilmore,

30:28

who wanted to see them disappear entirely. And

30:31

people fighting for. The reforms were having

30:33

sex.

30:35

This is a comprehensive reform package forced

30:37

by the legislative black caucus after the

30:39

death of George floyd in other.

30:41

One way there was a massive new find

30:43

other past one, the did things like

30:45

eliminate cash bail so fewer people

30:48

are stuck in jail.

30:49

Gov Jay Pritzker signing the seven

30:51

hundred page bill known as the safety act

30:53

into law to the then recently

30:56

and, noticed that shifting again

30:59

I went to Chicago has reached historic highs,

31:01

there were eight hundred homicides last year. Stand

31:04

to bleed people, want solutions.

31:07

Been a familiar focus on

31:09

law and order. A backlash against

31:11

reforms. Look no further

31:14

than the Ellen like.

31:14

The nurse rate serve and here's an ad

31:16

from Richard Urbana have the discipline racing front

31:19

runner on the Republican side so I went to college

31:21

on the in, law school,

31:24

to become a hands, on going

31:26

up, police great taken back

31:28

in one. corner or park putting

31:31

gang bangers drug dealers and

31:34

wife beaters in prison

31:35

And in the current governor, Jay Pritzker,

31:38

a Democrat. The push through that huge

31:40

criminal justice bell.

31:42

He that matter of and services.

31:45

for the defense profit by spending

31:47

some of the most violent and he this

31:51

Domestic abusers and sexual assault

31:54

it, all has all tough on crime era

31:56

ring to it

32:01

There's this for in the road. Which

32:04

way will be go?

32:05

Gilmore, the activist scholar advocates

32:08

for abolition.

32:10

What would you talking about abolition to not just talking

32:12

about tearing down prisons she's? talking

32:14

about trying to build a world where prison isn't

32:16

necessary The up

32:19

abolition. About

32:21

ending thing.

32:23

It's about making things other wives

32:26

a, world where rebuild what's needed,

32:29

places for people to get food mental

32:31

health care. housing so

32:34

awful things we do to each other are less

32:36

likely to happen

32:37

And if they do, we focus on how to

32:39

heal whatever was hurt. Make sure

32:41

the victims get what the.

32:42

The eat.

32:47

I'm guessing listeners arrived at

32:49

a bunch of different conclusions about what they

32:51

think needs to happen some,

32:53

may agree with Gilmore about abolition.

32:56

others may think we need to keep presence maybe even

32:58

grow them get the more resources

33:00

to do better job

33:02

Or reform them and provide

33:04

more oversight.

33:06

I don't expect nor will try

33:08

to. convince you have any of those pass right

33:11

now

33:12

But after listening if you believe as I

33:14

believe that, what we have now

33:16

is not inevitable. that

33:18

it was made to specific choices

33:21

They think it's worth at least imagining

33:24

what other choices could be made. What

33:27

would it look like? In your mind. If

33:30

we made life more precious.

33:32

The

33:38

motive is a production of W.B.

33:40

The Chicago I'm Shannon Heffernan,

33:43

just do it had producer.

33:44

Additional production by Judah So and are wonderful

33:47

associate.

33:47

The Desert Where Women Get Was That For

33:50

Editor Is Rob Will, the For Executive

33:52

Producer As. Could

33:55

you?

34:02

This is

34:04

our land.

34:05

Me and episode for the season upload

34:07

as though we do expect to pop ended

34:09

up.

34:10

In other things manifestly do

34:12

not have has like this.

34:14

He'd a huge group of people

34:16

and we are so grateful for all the

34:18

support.

34:19

Thanks to everybody who listened and give

34:21

us feedback, including susie on

34:24

kicking him Lauren Frost, Sylvia

34:26

Goodman Alex. Not only

34:28

more. Alexander Solemn and Fitness.

34:31

The welsh and politics neither our.

34:33

gratitude to johanns the core and

34:35

kidding eagle

34:36

I'm going to Propublica some of

34:38

the reporting for this podcast was developed

34:40

during my participation in their local reporting

34:43

that met with. additional production

34:45

reporting help

34:46

Come home at Know feet Kinda Mathilde on

34:48

and are no for granted and, a cable

34:50

assistance from just interviews. and

34:53

would you Music. Execution musicians,

34:55

include Sam Cop Steven Jackson,

34:58

Andrew Mary Weather will clap and

35:00

our producer, Jesse Duke's

35:02

nicole to soccer is or fact checker

35:05

for cuddle recordings today's episode

35:07

from. The Governor Jim Thompson collection

35:09

at the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library,

35:12

special thanks to Charlie, Slinker,

35:14

thanks to Dave Mysql and all the master

35:16

control engineers w, be easy.

35:19

And thanks to the W b easy news from for

35:21

the advice support and encouragement especially,

35:24

the criminal justice which operate

35:27

it then dump team so we can make

35:29

Hi.

35:31

Didn't he burger concluded Wiggins such

35:33

a lamb, Laura Vergara, and everybody

35:35

the helps us get the word out about this? The

35:38

more.

35:38

gratitude the legal team at

35:41

Center and Block.

35:42

The most about the everyone

35:45

who spoke to us with his podcast including

35:47

those voices that were never aired this.

35:50

is not always easy stuff

35:53

About we're. only able to do

35:55

the work we do because people share

35:57

information ideas and

35:59

story