0:00

Content warning, this episode includes

0:02

discussion of the murder of two girls.

0:06

So today is Wednesday, June 14th, 2023. There's

0:09

been a lot of activity going on in

0:11

the Richard Allen case. And

0:14

of course, we have a pretty big

0:16

hearing tomorrow. And

0:19

I think it's fair to say that we feel

0:21

there is a significant chance that information

0:24

will come out of that hearing tomorrow

0:27

that will fundamentally alter people's

0:29

view of the case. But

0:32

and I said there's also a lot of filings and

0:34

stuff to talk about. So we thought this

0:36

would be a good time to do a

0:38

quick episode about it all.

0:41

My name is Anya Cain. I'm

0:43

a journalist. And I'm Kevin

0:46

Greenlee. I'm an attorney. We

0:48

first connected while looking into the Burger

0:50

Chef murders in Indiana cold

0:53

case. Together, we built

0:55

a spreadsheet documenting hundreds

0:57

of cases of restaurant related

0:59

homicides.

1:01

That original spreadsheet gave

1:03

way to our podcast, The Murder

1:05

Sheet. Now we maintain

1:07

that same research centric investigative

1:10

approach as we look into all sorts

1:12

of homicides, including

1:15

unsolved cases,

1:16

historical crimes and

1:18

of course, restaurant murders. We

1:22

don't just chat about the headlines. Our

1:25

podcast is a platform for our

1:27

journalism. The Murder Sheet

1:29

focuses on investigative reporting,

1:32

thoughtful analysis,

1:33

thorough research and in-depth

1:36

interviews. We're The Murder

1:38

Sheet. And this is The Delphi

1:40

Murders, a preview of

1:43

the June 2023 suppression

1:45

hearing and additional court filings.

1:50

The Delphi Murders. So

2:33

in the last week or so, there have

2:35

actually been a number of court filings

2:37

in the Richard Allen case,

2:39

including, of course, a filing made by us.

2:42

Yeah. So what did we do? Did

2:44

we do something bad? Are we trying to destroy the case? In

2:47

our filing, we asked for certain documents

2:49

that are currently sealed to be unsealed.

2:52

And so people are saying, at least some people

2:54

are saying

2:55

they don't know what they're talking about.

2:58

They're trying to wreck the case. There's a good

3:00

reason why things are sealed.

3:02

We

3:03

want things to be unsealed

3:05

that should be sealed.

3:08

Yeah, I guess people are not really reading

3:10

the actual filing. And maybe

3:12

it's our fault for not going into

3:14

more detail about it.

3:17

But I think we can all agree that in

3:19

this case and in any case,

3:21

it's easy to imagine circumstances

3:24

where it makes good sense for

3:27

particular documents and filings

3:29

to remain sealed.

3:30

Absolutely. There's all kinds

3:32

of I mean, it's kind of hard to pick an example

3:34

of what that would look like. But I think you

3:36

and I are in agreement and I think most reasonable

3:39

people could envision such a circumstance

3:41

where you should keep it sealed

3:44

and not put it out before trial because

3:46

that doing so would be either detrimental

3:49

to the prosecution's case or an investigation

3:52

or ongoing security concerns,

3:54

or it would be actually detrimental to

3:56

the defendant's right to a fair trial and

3:59

you know.

4:00

just enhance pretrial publicity

4:02

around the person. That's

4:04

all very true. And so because

4:06

of this, because everybody recognizes there's

4:08

certainly some circumstances where particular

4:11

things should be sealed, there

4:13

is a mechanism and a process in place

4:16

in Indiana to allow that to happen.

4:19

Basically, if you're filing something

4:21

into a case

4:23

that you feel should be sealed,

4:26

whether you're the defense or the

4:28

prosecution or whoever, you

4:31

accompany that filing with something

4:33

called a verified motion

4:35

to prohibit public access to a

4:37

court record.

4:38

And basically,

4:40

I'm really oversimplifying this, basically,

4:42

when you do that, you're saying, hey, there's

4:44

a good reason why this should be kept private.

4:47

And so generally speaking, the courts respect

4:49

that and things accompanied by such

4:52

a filing

4:53

are sealed. Yes, because

4:55

it's basically outlined in the filing why

4:57

it should be sealed, essentially. It doesn't have to go into a

4:59

ton of detail, right? But just basically don't

5:03

let this one out there, basically.

5:04

Maybe it's something about somebody's mental

5:06

health or medical records,

5:09

or there's a number of good reasons.

5:12

Maybe it's like the identity of

5:15

a witness. Yeah.

5:16

There's a number of good reasons for

5:19

such things. So we, in our

5:21

filing, we did not ask for anything

5:23

to be unsealed that was accompanied

5:25

by emotion like that.

5:27

But what's going on in this case

5:30

is that basically everything that's filed

5:32

into the case, or virtually

5:34

everything that's filed into the case

5:37

is being automatically sealed. It's

5:39

being sealed even if prosecutor

5:41

Nick McClellan did not ask for it to be sealed.

5:44

It's being sealed even if defense

5:46

attorneys,

5:47

Brad Rosie and Andy Baldwin did

5:50

not ask for it to be sealed.

5:52

So that doesn't really seem to make a lot

5:54

of sense. And it kind of also, it's

5:57

not apparent to me who's doing this

5:59

or why exactly. exactly this is happening. Is

6:02

that fair to say? That's fair to say. You know

6:04

what, we're not saying that,

6:07

oh, the prosecutor's stealing it or the defense is stealing

6:09

it. We don't really know why this

6:11

is happening. It's just not the

6:13

proper course of action in Indiana

6:16

courtrooms. And we're

6:18

not also not suggesting there's anything sinister

6:20

going on here. We don't think there's people

6:23

in smoke-filled rooms twisting

6:25

their mustaches saying, oh, let's keep this

6:27

thing sealed. But

6:30

what we are saying is that this is not

6:32

the way the system is designed to

6:34

work. And when too many things

6:37

are kept sealed for no apparent reason,

6:39

generally it has

6:41

the potential to make things look bad.

6:43

Yeah, I agree. And, you

6:45

know, I mean,

6:48

our request is not just for things to

6:50

be unsealed. It's just, you know,

6:52

let's get back on the right track of

6:54

basically doing things by the proper

6:57

procedure. I think once people

6:59

are seeing that things are just going on as

7:01

they always do, then that

7:03

engenders more confidence in the process,

7:06

which, you know, gets eroded

7:09

at times when there's sort of perceptions

7:11

that things are being quote unquote hidden. I

7:13

really don't think anything sinister is going

7:16

on here

7:17

either. I think this is just a matter of potentially,

7:20

at some level, somebody in the system

7:23

is being, I think, very cautious

7:25

who that is, I don't know. This

7:28

is a really important case.

7:30

And I can understand being cautious

7:32

and being like, well, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to make this

7:34

public. So let me just make everything, you

7:37

know,

7:38

not release anything to the public and not have any of

7:40

these filings go public, even though nobody asked me

7:42

to. Again, I don't know who this hypothetical person is,

7:44

but I can understand where they're coming from. I don't think that's

7:46

sinister. I think that's just someone trying to be prudent,

7:49

maybe going

7:50

a little overboard.

7:52

And so basically we filed to correct

7:55

that and to make sure proper procedure

7:57

is followed.

7:58

And going forward, you know, if. If people

8:00

want to seal things, they do that. And I mean,

8:02

we don't have an issue with that because as we as we

8:05

said, we can see the defense or the prosecution

8:07

having instances where they want to keep something

8:10

locked down.

8:11

And we feel optimistic that our very

8:13

limited request will get more information

8:16

out there. Yeah. I mean, it's more information

8:18

for the public, but it's not everything. You

8:20

know, I think, I think people have the perception

8:23

of you and me, Kevin, in particular,

8:26

that we want

8:27

everything out there at all

8:29

times. And, um,

8:33

in a, in a sense, spiritually, that

8:35

is correct. But

8:37

we, if we feel like we don't have information

8:40

confirmed or we feel that something

8:42

is credible, but needs more checking

8:45

or needs more reporting done, or if

8:47

we feel that reporting something would endanger

8:49

somebody, or if we feel that, you

8:51

know, it endanger a source, endanger somebody

8:54

who's like a witness. I mean, there's

8:56

a lot of things that we know about this case

8:58

that we have not reported that we're

9:01

not going to report because doing so would

9:03

be irresponsible in some ways. So we're

9:06

not going to file anything that's

9:07

going to, you know, go

9:10

against that sort of mantra that we have, which

9:12

is to, you know, basically we try to

9:14

err towards informing the public in a responsible

9:16

way. If both of those criteria are met,

9:19

then we want to go forward with a report. That's

9:21

kind of how we do things.

9:23

We wanted to take a moment to clear up some

9:25

of this because people just don't seem to

9:28

read actual filings. They just want to make

9:30

assumptions. There've been other filings, obviously,

9:33

other than our own. Yes. Probably more

9:35

important ones, frankly. I

9:37

think it's important to note that it's very, very

9:39

hard when everything is sealed

9:42

to try to read and figure out what's going

9:44

on

9:47

with this docket. Uh,

9:49

so I want to note that in the

9:52

Allen case and the docket, there was a place

9:54

where it says a transport order

9:57

was entered.

9:58

And then that was followed.

9:59

by Richard Allen's defense

10:02

team, filing a motion for a transport

10:04

order,

10:05

which was followed by another transport

10:08

order being entered. So

10:11

that's all it says on the docket.

10:13

With that said, we're now going to enter into

10:15

the realm of speculation.

10:18

I feel

10:18

like there should be a sound effect or

10:20

something to go with that. So

10:22

in the past, when there's been a hearing,

10:25

Richard Allen, of course, is present for the said

10:28

hearings. And since he's in the custody

10:30

of the Indiana Department of Correction,

10:32

it's not like he can just set

10:35

his alarm clock and drive in himself. There

10:38

has to be a motion. There has to be

10:40

an order, rather, for him to

10:42

come. And in the past, no

10:44

one has had to file a motion for

10:46

Richard Allen to be there. Judge Gull has just

10:48

in the past issued a transport

10:51

order,

10:52

and then Allen is there.

10:54

So I'm going to speculate that the first

10:56

transport order we see on

10:58

that list is most likely

11:00

a transport order to get Richard

11:03

Allen from where he is incarcerated

11:06

to the courthouse tomorrow.

11:07

Because that's what's happened every

11:10

other time, essentially. Now,

11:12

that is followed by

11:15

basically a request for a transport

11:17

order. It

11:19

says in the docket that request comes from

11:21

Richard Allen, but basically that means it comes from his

11:23

defense team.

11:25

And that is then followed by another

11:28

transport order.

11:29

So why would

11:32

Richard Allen doesn't need to file a motion

11:35

for his own transport? No, we've established

11:37

that.

11:39

So if we wanted to speculate, this

11:41

would make us wonder, we know that tomorrow's

11:43

hearing there's likely to be testimony

11:46

offered by witnesses. Is

11:48

it possible that the second transport

11:50

order relates to a

11:53

possible witness for the defense

11:55

who is currently incarcerated and

11:57

they want to transport this person to the house?

11:59

to the courthouse to be made available

12:02

for the hearing. Okay,

12:04

and because almost like if it was an expert

12:07

for the defense, they wouldn't need to have

12:09

a transport order because that person presumably

12:11

would not be incarcerated. Yes,

12:13

they could just pick that guy up at the airport

12:15

or whatever. They Okay, yeah,

12:18

that's interesting. And then in that case,

12:20

what would that be going towards conditions

12:22

in prison? Perhaps the defenses

12:25

is certainly very much been going

12:28

on the kind of offensive regarding,

12:30

you

12:31

know, how Richard Allen is being treated

12:33

in Westfield, what do those conditions look like?

12:36

And how does that have a bearing on his mental

12:38

health? So yeah,

12:40

this is all speculation,

12:42

but is just where whatever

12:45

it's worth. This is where our minds went could

12:47

be accurate could be completely wrong.

12:49

Yeah, we could be completely incorrect about this. But we're

12:51

just trying to read the tea leaves.

12:54

I think this is almost like kind of

12:56

doing a weather report, but instead of like temperatures

12:58

and you know, precipitation levels and

13:00

things like that. It's like you just see the picture

13:02

of the sun. Basically

13:05

draw conclusions from that. So you know,

13:07

if we're wrong, we're wrong.

13:10

But

13:11

it is it's

13:14

worth noting that these transport orders typically

13:16

are just kind of these pro forma things to get him

13:18

there. But there seems to be a lot

13:20

more activity with transport around

13:22

this situation. So that's probably

13:24

about all we can responsibly say

13:26

or guess about that. So

13:28

let's move on.

13:30

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13:34

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17:03

The next filing in the case is

17:05

described as a motion in limine

17:08

on ballistics. So what does

17:10

that mean?

17:12

Basically, a motion in limine is

17:14

a motion that requests that certain testimony

17:17

not be allowed to be included

17:20

in the jury trial. In other words, this

17:23

testimony should be excluded and the jury

17:25

shouldn't hear this. And

17:27

so this motion would seem to be,

17:29

again, we're just going by the description, it would

17:32

seem to be a request by

17:34

the defense that ballistics

17:37

evidence

17:38

should not be offered in

17:41

any potential trial. Now,

17:44

the ballistics evidence, in case

17:46

you need a refresher, the ballistics evidence in this

17:48

case would

17:49

be the testimony

17:52

from experts that would indicate that

17:54

a bullet found at the crime scene

17:57

could be ballistically linked to.

18:00

a gun owned by Richard Allen.

18:02

Now an obvious question would be what why

18:05

Why shouldn't this sort of testimony be

18:07

allowed?

18:09

One thing we try to do

18:11

in this case, which

18:13

I'm sure you've noticed is that if we suspect

18:15

an

18:16

Issue is coming up that

18:18

might be relevant. We try to do some

18:21

sort of episode on it earlier

18:23

this week We did an episode called going

18:25

ballistic with Radley Bauco

18:28

and in that episode Mr.

18:30

Bauco went into quite a bit

18:33

of detail

18:34

about how defense attorneys Were

18:36

able to get ballistics evidence thrown

18:39

out of a criminal case in Chicago

18:42

basically, they argued that ballistics

18:44

evidence is unreliable and

18:47

So again, we don't know what arguments

18:49

the defense team in this case is going

18:51

to make But I think

18:53

if you want to get a possible preview

18:56

of some of the issues that defense attorneys

18:58

at least have with Ballistics evidence maybe

19:01

give that episode of listen

19:02

I want to also note that we are working

19:04

on securing a different perspective

19:07

on that more from the prosecution side

19:09

of things or the pro ballistics side

19:11

of things because You know,

19:13

we always want to at least kind of have different

19:17

sides of an argument We've tried to do that consistently

19:19

with this case and in fact around the bullet

19:21

we've done that We've had people who you know

19:24

work on the forensic side of things. We've had defense

19:26

attorneys prosecutors. We've had Private

19:29

investigators. We've had a lot of people speaking

19:31

to this issue lots of

19:33

different perspectives lots of disagreements

19:36

on the trust in this kind of evidence, but

19:39

That is to say that we're not taking

19:41

a side on that issue You and

19:43

I are not scientists nor are we,

19:46

you know prosecutors or defense attorneys

19:49

We are seeking to simply just kind of platform

19:51

different perspectives and talk through

19:53

that But I did want to flag that we're looking

19:56

for Someone on the more probabilistic

19:59

side. I also want to

19:59

just like go on a little bit of soapbox here because

20:02

I think we have a lot of listeners who have really interesting

20:04

experiences. One thing that I don't

20:06

think people realize is that it's a lot easier

20:09

to get people who tend to

20:11

be on the defense side of things

20:14

to talk to you than it is the

20:17

opposite, the prosecution side of things. So

20:19

if

20:20

you're ever listening to our show and you're

20:22

thinking, oh this is this is kind of more of a pro

20:24

defense talking point or whatever,

20:27

you know shoot us an email, we'd love

20:29

to talk to you, we protect our sources.

20:32

It just been weirdly our experience that that

20:34

tends to happen. That

20:37

defense attorneys tend to be a lot better with the media

20:39

than

20:39

people on the more

20:42

law enforcement prosecution side of things. That's

20:45

just our experience but we're always

20:47

looking for a different perspective so reach

20:50

out let us know. Not

20:52

just our perspective, I think that's something I've noticed

20:54

when watching true crime

20:56

shows on television or another podcast. For

20:59

whatever reason, defense attorneys,

21:01

people on that side tend to make themselves more available

21:03

in my opinion. More available and then

21:06

those talking points tend to dominate in

21:08

certain cases. So it's

21:10

not

21:11

good to have a lack of balance, we're

21:13

not trying to do that. I

21:14

think we've put out some different sides of

21:16

the whole ballistics debate but

21:19

we're always looking for more. So next,

21:22

the prosecution filed an objection

21:24

to an earlier defense motion

21:27

on continuing disclosure of defendants

21:29

mental health records.

21:31

That is

21:32

vague enough that it's very difficult

21:35

to figure out

21:37

first of all what it was the defense was originally

21:40

requesting and what the prosecution

21:43

is now objecting to.

21:47

Hopefully we'll get more information on that at

21:49

some point.

21:50

I do think when we talked

21:52

about this earlier and certainly

21:54

today it's worth repeating the point that

21:57

Richard Allen's mental health is

21:59

going to be

21:59

a crucial part of this case.

22:03

And when I say that, I don't just mean his

22:05

mental health in 2017 at the time of

22:07

the crime. I

22:09

also mean his mental health since the

22:11

time he was arrested. Yes,

22:14

that seems pretty clear from the direction

22:16

of some of these filings from both the defense and the

22:18

prosecution.

22:20

And I think we should add to that. We have a really

22:22

interesting guest coming up in a show to talk

22:24

about things like not guilty by

22:27

reason of insanity, competency

22:29

when it comes to standing trial, and other

22:31

such issues that I think sometimes

22:34

we all tend to conflate together when we're

22:36

thinking about mental health vis-a-vis the criminal

22:38

justice system. But it's actually important

22:40

to distinguish and look at like what the difference

22:42

between those things are and what does that

22:45

look like?

22:46

Now, the prosecution also filed

22:48

an objection to the defense motion

22:50

to suppress. And actually

22:53

the motion to suppress is something

22:55

that's going to be argued tomorrow.

22:58

And it's not a surprise that the prosecution

23:01

is objecting to it. Yeah, naturally.

23:04

Again, I feel like I

23:06

keep saying this over and over again. We don't know

23:09

exactly

23:10

what the defense is trying to

23:12

suppress,

23:14

but we can make a reasonable

23:16

guess. The gun, right? The

23:19

gun. The gun that was recovered from

23:21

a search at Richard Allen's residence,

23:25

a gun that experts say can be

23:27

ballistically linked to the

23:29

bullet found at the crime scene.

23:31

So basically they're saying

23:33

on the one hand, you shouldn't have testimony about

23:36

this because it's unreliable. And

23:37

they're also going on the track of saying, also

23:40

you shouldn't have any testimony about it because there was something

23:42

wrong with the search. So it's a multi-pronged

23:44

attack on

23:45

this element of the case against Richard Allen.

23:48

So that seems to be indicating that that's very important.

23:52

And again, we talk about how we try to

23:56

address issues before they come

23:58

up.

23:59

And he Baldwin was part of a legal

24:02

team in another case in

24:04

Indiana, where a gun was recovered

24:06

in a search warrant.

24:09

And the legal team filed

24:11

motions to get it suppressed and it actually

24:13

ended up being suppressed. The

24:16

appeals court is basically now overturned

24:18

that and said, no, it should go in. That was

24:20

the case of Caden Smith. And

24:23

so if you want to try to get a preview

24:25

of some of the possible arguments that can

24:27

be made

24:28

to overturn a search warrant,

24:31

you can listen to our episode on Caden

24:33

Smith.

24:34

Again, the search warrant in this case

24:37

has not been made public, so we're not really

24:39

in a position to evaluate

24:41

whether or not there was actual probable cause

24:44

here. And Caden Smith, I'm

24:46

willing to add in our show notes, but

24:48

that's also a good example that whatever

24:51

happens tomorrow could be pretty important,

24:54

but it's not necessarily the final word.

24:57

If the defense gets what they want and they

24:59

get something thrown out or suppressed, then

25:02

the prosecution can appeal that with the

25:05

appellate court. And

25:07

vice versa is true as well. If

25:10

the defense don't go what they want, they can try again.

25:13

So just because a ruling

25:16

or decision is made either tomorrow or

25:18

in the subsequent days or weeks, that

25:20

doesn't mean that that's going to be a permanent thing. There's

25:23

a series of kind of processes

25:25

that both sides can go through to sort of try

25:27

again.

25:30

And we imagine that this is an important

25:32

enough issue that we would possibly see that

25:34

regardless of how it goes. So

25:37

it's not like a, it's not

25:39

over tomorrow. It's more of an opening

25:42

salvo about like how things may

25:44

proceed from there or what each

25:46

side is indicating is important to them.

25:50

Exactly. Also, I

25:52

think tomorrow it's

25:54

not going to be a short day

25:56

in court. A lot of the hearings in this case

25:59

have been relatively. brief. I

26:01

think the hearing begins at 10am tomorrow.

26:04

I think the suppression issues are probably

26:06

complicated enough that there

26:09

may be hours spent on that and

26:11

I believe there's also a due process

26:13

hearing that's going to be done tomorrow as well.

26:16

So I expect it to be a long day

26:19

in court.

26:20

I expect that there's going to be

26:22

testimony offered tomorrow

26:25

and we expect that there's very

26:28

likely to be a stunning revelation or two

26:30

tomorrow. And

26:32

it's going to be a situation where as usual

26:34

we go to these things. We

26:37

don't have a camera crew there with us. We're going to

26:39

try to get whatever we put out

26:41

there to you as quickly as possible.

26:44

But keep in mind that it's just

26:47

me and Kevin

26:49

and we're probably going to be

26:52

kind of running around a lot. We're going to try to get the episode

26:54

published as quickly for you as possible so you

26:56

can get a sense of what we're thinking. You're going to see the

26:58

news first. We're not going to break anything but

27:00

hopefully it'll provide at least more of an on the

27:02

ground analysis and perspective.

27:04

And hopefully it'll provide some interesting context.

27:07

Yes, but we really do think that tomorrow

27:09

could end up being pretty important for a lot of

27:11

our and really widen our understanding of the

27:13

case against Richard Allen and all

27:16

that entails. We're

27:17

going to keep this short and sweet. We just wanted to check

27:19

in with you all before we do this hearing.

27:21

Sorry to be vague about certain things. In

27:23

certain cases we have to be vague because

27:26

we don't know what exactly is

27:28

going on. And then in other cases we just want to

27:30

be

27:31

responsibly reporting. This will hopefully

27:34

be just a chance to illuminate

27:37

more of this case, get a sense of the issues,

27:40

and

27:40

provide some updates and hopefully

27:43

get one step closer to securing

27:46

answers and

27:48

ultimately

27:49

justice for Libby and Abby.

27:52

Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

27:55

If you have a tip concerning one of the cases

27:57

we cover, please email us at at

28:00

murdersheet at gmail.com.

28:04

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28:06

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28:08

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28:33

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28:37

thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who

28:39

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28:41

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28:46

If you're looking to talk with other listeners

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28:54

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media much. We do try

29:00

to check our email account, but we ask

29:03

for patience as we often receive a lot

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of messages. Thanks again for listening.

29:09

Hey, thanks so much for sticking around to the end.

29:12

We wanted to take another moment to thank

29:14

our wonderful sponsor, HelpeSell, for

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their support of our show. These sponsors

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make it possible for us to keep digging

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and doing our jobs and doing investigative journalism,

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so we're eternally grateful to HelpeSell for that.

29:26

We wanted to just take a moment to chat about our

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gels that we've continued trying and have actually

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kind of come to rely on, especially

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their REM sleep gel.

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That's a terrific product. It tastes great,

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and it's really effective. Yeah, I know Kevin,

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I always say you're a very picky person when it comes to

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food. You're not easy to

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please, I would say, so I think you were a little

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nervous to try it at first, but

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it's just this kind of tart, cherry-flavored

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It's kind of become part of our life.

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a little bedtime ritual. I think I

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tend to have more of a problem falling asleep

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and you have more of a problem staying asleep.

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Is that fair?

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That's fair to say. It's been

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the next day you wake up and you feel tired.

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You're wrecked, basically. But that's

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not the case with this. I wake up, I feel refreshed,

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Yeah, and it's really immediate. I was

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surprised by that. I kind of figured, OK, it's going to take

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really just feels like you just kind of have the emotional

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you're just ready to sleep. It's really

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or exhausted or anything. It's just more of like,

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all right, time to snuggle down and

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Sometimes when we're out and about,

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we might rely on some fast food drive-thrus

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in those instances, it's really nice to know that

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