0:42

Primary care is an innovative, alternative

0:44

path to insurance driven health care. Typically,

0:48

a patient pays their doctor a low monthly

0:51

membership and in return,

0:53

builds a lasting relationship with their doctor

0:55

and has their doctor available at their

0:57

fingertips. Welcome

0:59

to the My DPC Story podcast, where

1:02

each week, You will hear the ever so

1:04

relatable stories shared by physicians who

1:06

have chosen to practice medicine in their individual

1:08

communities through the direct primary

1:10

care model. I'm your host, Maryal

1:13

Concepcion, family physician, DPC

1:16

owner, and former fee for service doctor.

1:19

I hope you enjoy today's episode and

1:21

come away feeling inspired about the future

1:23

of patient care, direct primary

1:26

care.

1:29

Direct primary care is practicing and

1:31

loving medicine the way I thought

1:34

I would when I dreamed of being

1:36

a doctor and providing care for patients the way

1:38

they deserve. I am Dr. Aisha Harris

1:41

of Harris Family Health and this is my

1:43

DPC story.

1:51

Dr. Asia Harris, MD, is a

1:53

board certified family medicine physician who

1:55

owns and works at Harris Family Health. The

1:58

first direct primary care clinic in her hometown

2:00

of Flint, Michigan. She graduated

2:03

from Georgetown University School of Medicine

2:05

and completed her family medicine residency

2:07

at the University of Illinois in Chicago.

2:10

She focuses on improving health literacy and

2:12

access through outreach work with her BlackFamDoc

2:15

platform. Additionally, she does

2:17

public health and health advocacy work within

2:19

various local, state, and national

2:21

organizations. Welcome

2:25

to the podcast, Dr. Harris!

2:27

Thank you for having me.

2:29

I am so

2:31

pumped because you are coming

2:33

onto this podcast as a physician, as

2:36

a person who wasn't a physician originally, and

2:38

as an advocate for your patients

2:40

in such a unique way and a much

2:42

needed way. So I wanted to start

2:44

off with a quote that

2:47

you had said on your social

2:49

platforms. That I want to paint

2:51

a better light for all the things that are happening

2:54

at home.

2:55

Yes. So Harris Family Health is my

2:57

direct primary care clinic. It is located in my

2:59

hometown of Flint, Michigan. And so

3:02

I came back home after residency

3:04

and after all of my training. To be an asset

3:06

and resource to the community that raised me and

3:08

be able to make the community of

3:10

Flint a lot stronger, a lot healthier

3:13

and thrive in ways that we could never imagine.

3:15

And you've just celebrated your one year anniversary!

3:18

Congratulations!

3:20

Yes, thank you very much. One year,

3:22

it definitely was an amazing year. I'm excited for this

3:24

coming year. Definitely growing and learning

3:27

more about myself, about the business, about

3:29

caring for my community and the diverse ways that I

3:31

can make an impact.

3:32

Love it, love it, love it. And it's so, beautiful.

3:34

It's so important to hear that for other people

3:37

that even after you graduate medical school,

3:39

you graduate residency, you can still

3:41

carve your way out in life, you

3:43

can carve ways out for your community that never

3:45

existed before. And, to highlight

3:47

how you've truly carved out your way

3:49

in life, your degree in undergrad

3:52

was in chemical engineering and

3:54

then you decided to be a doctor. So you're one,

3:56

super smart. And two, I

3:58

want to ask, how did you go from

4:01

chemical engineering to becoming a family

4:03

medicine physician?

4:04

I get asked this a lot because it is a

4:07

a different switch. I know there's a fraction of people

4:09

who are doctors who are previous

4:11

engineers, and so it's not completely out of

4:13

the norm, but it is a adjustment

4:16

to what you thought you were going to do. And then you end

4:18

up kind of being a medical doctor, but

4:20

I've always been a curious person. I've always been into

4:22

science and figuring out things. And that's

4:25

kind of how I got into engineering. That was kind

4:27

of what people like math and science. You should be an engineer.

4:29

And it was a great plan for me. But

4:31

when I got into undergrad at

4:33

the University of Michigan, I realized

4:35

during that process, I really enjoyed health

4:37

and the biology and I thought

4:39

I was gonna do health technology and like just be

4:42

in the health field some way in the engineering standpoint.

4:44

But then I realized. Through different

4:46

volunteer opportunities a summer doing

4:48

an engineering internship and I volunteered

4:51

at HIV and AIDS transition home and from

4:53

that summer, I realized I

4:55

wanted to be directly in front of my patients, listening

4:57

to them, and so after that summer,

4:59

I came back and just kind of switched it up. I

5:01

still finished my engineering degree, but yeah, that's it. I

5:04

knew after my undergrad degree

5:06

that I was going to try and apply to medical school

5:08

and be directly patient facing

5:11

I love it. and when you talk about, you

5:13

know, you, you discovered this new

5:15

way of delivering what

5:17

you wanted to bring to the table through being

5:19

in front of patients. I want to ask

5:22

there, how was it that you also

5:24

discovered this? you know, world

5:26

of direct primary care where just to make

5:28

sure that we call out you were the first direct

5:30

primary care in Flint, Michigan to exist.

5:33

And I hope there are lots that come after you.

5:36

But how did you go from,

5:38

you know, a, a typical

5:40

residency where we learned fee for service

5:43

to then choosing DPC versus

5:45

staying in fee for service?

5:47

Yeah. So there,

5:49

is a kind of nervousness.

5:52

But also excitement when it comes to starting a direct

5:54

primary care clinic in a city that's never heard of it.

5:56

So I really enjoy being the

5:58

first direct primary care clinic in Flint.

6:01

But during the process of my

6:04

first job after residency, I

6:06

realized that I wasn't I was caring for my patients

6:08

as best as I could. I thought I was being

6:10

a great doctor and they were having better

6:12

health outcomes. And I was addressing

6:14

kind of different things through the system that I,

6:17

that I was in. But I realized there were a lot

6:19

of barriers that I wasn't able to do everything

6:21

that my patients kind of needed. I was only able

6:23

to kind of do what was within that, that

6:26

system in that clinic. And I

6:28

just felt really restricted. I felt like my patients deserved

6:30

a lot more. And I know as a primary

6:32

care doctor, that. Most of the

6:34

health that my patients are dealing with or

6:37

the health impact that my patients are dealing with is

6:39

outside of the clinic. And so that was one

6:41

piece where I couldn't get outside of the clinic enough

6:43

when I was working in my previous employment.

6:46

And I also knew that the system was not

6:48

addressing all the concerns that my patients had.

6:50

And so actually when I was in medical school, did

6:53

a family medicine rotation at

6:55

a concierge clinic in D. C.

6:57

And so that was my first glimpse of

6:59

like, People having a membership and then

7:01

people getting their primary care. I didn't know all the ins

7:03

and outs of the business of medicine at that point,

7:06

but I saw the time that people were able to spend

7:08

with their patients. But I forgot about it. I

7:11

was like, okay, that's, that's the rotation. I saw

7:13

some patients got, got some good experience.

7:15

And then I went off and went to residency

7:17

in the fee for service kind of round that you were

7:19

referencing. But once I got out of residency

7:22

and had my first post residency job,

7:24

That barrier and restriction kind of overwhelmed

7:27

me. And I realized in order to save

7:29

myself from the burnout feeling that I was

7:31

feeling as well as provide better access

7:33

and better opportunity when it comes to empowering themselves

7:36

with their health care. I had to change it up.

7:38

And so I kind of, you know, Toyed

7:40

with the idea of another fee for service clinic,

7:43

but then I realized that it was going to get me back

7:45

into the same hole that I felt

7:47

I was in in my in my last clinic. And

7:49

so finding direct primary care,

7:51

finding membership based care, really opened

7:54

my eyes up to being the doctor that I thought

7:56

I was going to be. We think about the general

7:58

practitioners of, you know, generations

8:01

ago, they were right there next to their

8:03

patients caring for them, but they were also right there in

8:05

the community. And that's my favorite part of

8:07

the, you know, My DPC clinic is being able to

8:10

care for my patients that are my members and,

8:12

and, but also care for my residents in the community

8:14

by being a health advocate and

8:16

an asset to the community.

8:18

it's so represented even on your website where you

8:20

have that one post where it says three

8:22

things. I, I can't remember it exactly. So please

8:25

help me out here. But it's like, I live in

8:27

Flint. I love Flint. I,

8:29

I doctor in Flint or something like that. And it,

8:31

it's, it's very much

8:34

I am with you. In terms of I

8:36

know this geography. I know what the

8:38

barriers are to getting health care. And I know the

8:40

health care landscape as a person who grew up in Flint.

8:43

So when you talk about burnout

8:45

That you wanted to that you recognize

8:47

that you had to leave the way that you were

8:49

being you know, the way that you were practicing

8:52

medicine in order to avoid burnout.

8:55

What did burnout look like specifically for

8:57

you?

8:57

That is, that's a heavy question.

9:00

I think people don't realize that when you are

9:02

a doctor, you have to still

9:04

be a great doctor, even in chaos.

9:06

And so that's what I felt that I was working

9:08

in. And so when I was

9:11

employed at my previous clinic, it

9:13

just felt heavy. It felt like

9:15

my favorite place in the clinic was

9:17

with my patients in the patient room. And

9:19

as soon as I left that space. Like

9:22

it just seemed like the whole, the whole clinic and

9:24

the whole, all the problems kind of just sat

9:26

right on my shoulders again. And so in

9:28

some moments it was physically painful. Like I,

9:31

I had muscle aches and things like that. There

9:33

were depression episodes, but what was one

9:35

of the worst things about it was, you know, My

9:37

family and friends saw it, and it kind of

9:40

also took them down in the process

9:42

of seeing me not enjoy something that

9:44

I once enjoyed. And I was,

9:46

I was getting irritated at things that shouldn't

9:48

have irritated me. I wasn't doing the things

9:50

that I enjoyed outside of the clinic. And

9:53

as much as I love the diversity of the, the

9:55

family medicine clinic panel

9:57

in the, Schedule. It wasn't as fun

9:59

as it used to be. It wasn't as interesting.

10:02

It felt like I was checking off boxes instead

10:04

of being right there and

10:06

present for for everything. And so it's

10:09

it had its ways and each day felt different.

10:12

But the idea that I just wasn't really

10:14

enjoying what I was doing as much as I was

10:16

previously sat on me kind of

10:18

every single day.

10:19

And that definitely adds up. And, you know, especially

10:22

just putting out a fact here, you

10:24

know, less than 3 percent of

10:26

female physicians, excuse me, less

10:28

than 3 percent of physicians are female

10:30

and black like yourself. And that is,

10:33

it is not okay for any physician to be

10:35

burned out to the point of, you know, You

10:37

know, the devastating things, leaving

10:40

medicine, taking their own lives you know,

10:42

choosing to, to do something that

10:44

is compromising their care while

10:46

staying in fee for service. But with that statistic,

10:49

it is so important. that we make sure

10:51

that when a person is in family medicine, especially

10:54

when you're doing the jack of all trades job, when you're doing

10:56

all of the, the things that, you know,

10:58

you, we get the punted, Oh, see your

11:01

PCP for pre op go to

11:03

your PCP for your

11:05

hypertension. Sorry, you can't get in

11:07

for six months, making the PCP,

11:09

you know, stress out while they're trying

11:11

to get you care, but they can't get you in soon enough. Like

11:13

all of those things. It's so important

11:15

to address the fact that. You

11:18

know, this model, direct primary care,

11:20

and the fact that you are now past a year,

11:23

you know, into your direct primary care and living a very

11:25

different life. It's so important for people

11:27

to know that this model exists because whether

11:29

you're black, whether you're Filipino, like myself, whether

11:31

you're Vietnamese, whether you're Sikh, it doesn't

11:33

matter. But if you are a physician who absolutely

11:36

can bring a change to

11:38

your community, because you know, Of cultural

11:40

presence because of language abilities,

11:42

whatever it is, it's so important

11:45

for people to know that this model exists because

11:47

this is a model that allows people to

11:49

function the way that we wanted to function

11:51

when we went to medical school. So I'm just so

11:53

proud and also I'm so

11:55

grateful that Flint has you as

11:57

a community physician, born and raised and

12:00

now practicing in Flint.

12:01

Yes. No, thank you. I appreciate those kind words.

12:03

Absolutely. So let me ask

12:05

you though, when you saw that,

12:08

you know, this is not going to work out for you in fee

12:10

for service and you

12:12

had you know, you

12:14

had experience in this concierge model

12:17

of care. How did you learn

12:19

specifically about doing medicine

12:21

through the direct primary care model? And

12:23

when in your fee for service journey, did

12:25

you decide this is,

12:28

this is what I'm going to do?

12:29

it's definitely been a process

12:31

to learn the business side of medicine, whether

12:33

it was the direct primary care or

12:35

fee for service. And so I think

12:37

that was kind of where I first. Kind

12:40

of sat back and realize, okay, what is the day

12:42

to day that's happening after I click

12:45

like after I signed my notes, like what, what is

12:47

happening? And so I started

12:49

just paying more attention to my surroundings

12:51

at my clinic, but more personally,

12:54

when I was kind of at home and had my

12:56

own kind of time, I was, I was reading books

12:58

on direct primary care specifically.

13:00

I was looking at the direct

13:02

primary care kind of resources, the websites.

13:05

But I think. Most kind of regularly.

13:07

I was in the direct primary care Facebook groups,

13:09

which had a variety of questions of

13:11

I'm thinking about it too. I've been doing this for years.

13:14

And so I had a business

13:16

plan that was probably, it was formally structured as a

13:18

business plan. But it really became my

13:20

like go to resource where everything

13:23

I learned through the Facebook group, through

13:25

the websites, through the books,

13:27

it was just a line item in my, in my business

13:29

plan. And so eventually that became pages, the

13:31

pages of advice. For me,

13:34

as far as actually starting I, well,

13:36

I was previously a National Service Corps member.

13:38

And so my job

13:40

had me there for two years as far as a commitment.

13:43

And so, unfortunately, six, six months

13:45

in, I was like, this is not really how

13:47

I want to, you continue my career.

13:49

And so I had over a year

13:51

to really think about my next phase. Cause

13:54

I unfortunately had just burned out that fast. And

13:56

so in that timeframe,

13:58

I did my business plan. I was reading, I was learning,

14:01

I was absorbing as much as possible. So that way,

14:03

when I did finish my commitment and was able to

14:05

step away from my previous job, that

14:07

I could. Take a break to recover. That

14:10

being said, my burnout took over a year.

14:12

It feels like to really recover. But I took

14:14

the time to get all my stuff

14:16

lined up because you can't do things when you're employed.

14:19

It's a little bit harder. And so I just waited till I stopped

14:21

and then got things lined up and then eventually

14:23

started my clinic. And so I,

14:25

there's people who have started their, their DPC claims

14:28

very quickly. I was just one of those ones who just

14:30

had time. And so I just took it and then

14:32

was able to successfully start my clinic.

14:34

Amazing. there is no right way

14:37

for a timeline to go in particular

15:23

to open your practice. And especially

15:25

now when we have the internet, there

15:27

are so many ways to deliver care when

15:30

you're You might be restricted geographically.

15:32

I mean, Dr. Andy Burkowski

15:34

is a great example of that. He's a quaternary

15:36

specialist. Definitely go listen to his episode.

15:39

But he talked about how he is

15:42

his address is a floor below where he

15:44

used to practice, but he's physically out

15:46

of the non compete range. I'm like, boom,

15:49

that's the way to do medicine, man, like no

15:51

barriers to care. So, yeah, When

15:53

you decided to open, at what

15:55

point did you decide on Harris Family Health

15:57

being the name of your DPC?

16:00

I think, I know people have different reasons

16:03

for their names, whether they put their name

16:05

in it or don't. I'm such

16:07

a family oriented person that I love.

16:09

My family, I wanted them to be proud

16:12

of something in the Flint community. And so

16:14

I wanted Harris to be in there. And

16:16

then just from that, it just built into Harris family

16:18

health as far as the full name. But I

16:20

knew that when people saw my name,

16:22

I wanted them to connect it to the

16:24

Harris family. I mean, I have Harris

16:26

family and I have a Horn family, which is both my sides,

16:29

but I wanted them to connect it to my family

16:31

and my legacy and kind

16:33

of build off of that as far as this is where Dr.

16:35

Harris definitely is. And so that there was no

16:38

question of who was in this building

16:40

and who was providing care.

16:42

Love it. And definitely, you know, we'll

16:44

talk about this, but definitely check out Dr. Harris

16:47

website. It's beautiful, like really,

16:49

really beautiful. I kid you not. I was so

16:52

blown away by how savvy

16:54

it was and the colors and the images,

16:56

just amazing. But also I

16:58

want to point out here, Harris Family Health

17:00

is a beautiful pair with your logo.

17:03

So your logo is royal purple.

17:05

It has the HFH. It is beautiful. Perfectly

17:08

symmetrical. I love all the things. So

17:10

it's awesome. Now, your office

17:13

is located in downtown Flint, Michigan.

17:16

So I want to talk a little bit about Flint

17:18

itself and how you chose

17:20

to have your office downtown. So can

17:22

you give us a little bit of a feel for

17:25

Flint in terms of As a person

17:27

who grew up there, did you

17:29

go to downtown for,

17:31

you know, your own health care when you were growing

17:33

up? Is, is downtown a common place for

17:36

people nowadays to go get health care?

17:37

No, no. When I was

17:40

growing up, no one really went downtown. It

17:42

was nothing really here. When my parents

17:44

were younger, there were a lot more kind of stores

17:46

because people were more physically buying things in person

17:48

before the huge malls kind

17:50

of came about. But when I was younger, I was

17:53

really never downtown. As far as medical

17:55

clinics here, there are a couple now

17:57

but that's more in the last, you know, 10 years

17:59

or so, they haven't really been fully

18:02

present like that. But since

18:04

well, once I left high school, when I left

18:06

high school and was gone for college, the,

18:08

the downtown Flint area kind of blew up

18:11

it expanded, got new buildings,

18:13

got new tenants. And so it just like

18:15

any other downtown, it has its. Foot

18:17

traffic, but it has a lot of just small businesses,

18:19

just having kind of a place for people to come in

18:22

and go. And so for me

18:24

to open up a clinic in downtown, it's

18:26

not the norm for medical

18:28

offices to be down here. We have a lot

18:30

of medical offices in the city and

18:33

the County in general, but a lot of them in

18:35

the city specifically, we're kind of clustered just

18:37

outside the city in our business kind of

18:39

district, and I didn't really want to be,

18:42

Part of that cluster is

18:44

like, there's all the same type of medical offices.

18:46

You don't really kind of know where you're going. You

18:48

kind of have to feel like you have to have a map

18:51

to know exactly what building your medical

18:53

clinic is in. And so I just didn't want that confusion.

18:55

And I, I want it to be a little bit different and give

18:58

people a new experience because DPC

19:00

is already something that a lot of people around here I've

19:02

never heard of. But I wanted a

19:05

more kind of warm, cozy

19:07

you know, artistic in some ways kind of space

19:09

that didn't look sterile, didn't

19:11

look kind of numb that some offices

19:14

can have. And so downtown

19:17

was very vibrant. It allowed me to

19:19

diversify kind of the type

19:21

of experience my patients will have. And I'm in a building

19:23

that never had a medical office. And

19:25

so people don't expect it

19:28

to be in inside this building. So I love it.

19:30

And it also goes along with your whole branding.

19:32

I mean, you have your your royal purple

19:35

everywhere. And, you know, just the

19:37

way you've used your space. There's a video of it on

19:39

your social media. And

19:41

when you Look at it. I mean, you,

19:45

yes, it could be, you know, any, any particular

19:47

business in their office based business, but

19:49

the way you've used it, can you describe

19:51

your space so that people can, if they haven't seen

19:54

your, your clinic visually, how you've

19:56

separated a larger space where you have,

19:58

you know, you can have a group meeting there. You, you've done

20:00

interviews there. You have your hallway,

20:03

you have your separate space where you have

20:05

your exam table, as well as like

20:07

a consultation area, but can you

20:09

describe Just visually walk people through what

20:11

does Harris family health look like for the, from the patient's

20:13

perspective.

20:15

Yeah, so, I guess I'll describe from

20:17

the outside. So I am

20:20

in one of the oldest buildings in our city

20:22

over 110 years old. It's

20:25

at least over 100 years old. It used to be an old bank,

20:27

which in the basement, the vault is still there, but

20:30

I am in a large

20:32

office building in the city that has

20:34

a lot of character, a lot of history. You go

20:36

down the, the elevator

20:38

space, come up, and when you walk into

20:40

my clinic, now I have a mini

20:43

hallway. And so you enter, there's

20:45

space to sit, but there's art on the walls.

20:48

There's a sign that says everything is health because

20:50

I believe that everything impacts your health.

20:52

And so all facets of your life

20:54

are in some way connected to your health,

20:56

whether now or in the future. From that

20:58

hallway, there's the original portion

21:00

of Harris Family Health, which is the, the patient

21:03

exam room now. It has the patient

21:05

exam table, chairs. Supplies

21:07

in general. The other space in the office

21:09

is just my clinic like personal office

21:12

where I just have a desk and my computer and things like that.

21:14

Store a lot of outreach materials,

21:16

because that's one of the things I enjoy. And

21:18

down the hall. There is the

21:21

Harris Family Health Learning and Wellness Center, which

21:23

is just a open space that

21:25

has space for, like, talks

21:27

as far as recording podcasts, doing

21:29

events and that sort, has tables and chairs

21:32

that I can pull out to have a pseudo classroom

21:35

and just discussion space. And

21:37

it also has art on the walls.

21:39

Some of my entire office has.

21:41

As local art from all

21:43

black women artists in the Flint area

21:46

just trying to create a space where they could display

21:48

their art, sell it or not sell it have

21:50

it exposed during my events and other

21:52

kind of events that I have in the space

21:55

because I am a person who loves balancing

21:57

art and medicine, blending art and medicine before

21:59

I was a doctor I've always been a poet.

22:01

And so I've always enjoyed all these different art

22:03

spaces. And I wanted to bring that into

22:06

my clinic because I think it's beautiful.

22:08

But also it's my clinic. And so I

22:10

want to feel great in my clinic. And I hope that

22:12

my patients and visitors come, they also

22:14

feel like this was a really cool space

22:16

that I trust. I can be myself

22:19

in and address kind of other health concerns

22:21

or whatever they're kind of specifically coming in

22:23

for.

22:24

Going back to the fact that you grew up in Flint,

22:27

when you think about how,

22:29

you know, you just shared how you've personalized

22:31

your clinic and how you've really highlighted that health is

22:33

everything and it impacts like

22:36

everything a person does impacts health. I

22:38

want to go back to your experience growing up in

22:40

Flint. What was your access to health care

22:42

like? And did you have any similar

22:44

experiences in personalized clinics

22:47

with the health care

23:51

that existed when you were growing up?

23:53

So when I was growing up, I never had any

23:55

experience as far as membership based care.

23:57

I always went to a pediatrician

24:00

mainly for well, child checks and things

24:02

like that. It was just a small office, which

24:05

a lot of clinics around here are just small not

24:07

very Like large and expansive

24:09

kind of clinics, which nowadays I feel like that

24:11

has changed with how clinics are bought

24:13

out by different people. But my

24:16

experience was my mother and father taking

24:18

me to the doctor for various things

24:20

but mostly didn't really go to the doctor unless

24:23

it was something very serious and,

24:25

or required by the school, which I think is

24:27

kind of how people experience primary

24:29

care when it comes to students. That if

24:32

it's not required, my kid, isn't probably going to go,

24:34

but I think. It's hard for me

24:36

to recall like all the things when I was a child,

24:38

but I don't recall going to the doctor

24:41

that often. My mother, she worked in a hospital

24:44

system. And so sometimes it was her

24:46

bouncing ideas off of the doctors and

24:48

health providers that she talked to just to have a quick,

24:51

should I really take her in or should I shouldn't? But

24:54

there's been access gaps depending

24:56

on where you live in the city. And I think that's

24:59

still prevalent today.

25:00

Did you have, the experience

25:03

of seeing a black physician when

25:05

you were growing up? Or did you see

25:07

physicians who were not black physicians?

25:11

I saw physicians that were not black physicians.

25:14

If you ask some of the,

25:16

like my people, my parents age

25:18

They talk about back in the day when we had a

25:20

lot more black physicians in the front area,

25:23

unfortunately, those black physicians were not really

25:25

replaced by other black physicians. So

25:27

that number has dwindled with each

25:29

coming decade. And many of them also, unfortunately,

25:32

retiring in the last couple of years

25:34

anyway. So we, we don't really have that many black

25:37

physicians. I know that my mother's

25:39

doctor, when I was born, was

25:41

a black physician. He also has Children

25:44

who are OB doctors, and so that is

25:46

a strong legacy in the Flint area.

25:48

But when you get out of the OB doctor

25:52

kind of realm, we really don't have a lot of

25:54

primary care doctors that are that are African American.

25:57

I hope that your podcast and your story

25:59

inspires other people to, you

26:01

know, go into medicine, go back to their communities.

26:04

That said I want to ask a little bit more

26:06

about Flint in general. We think about

26:08

Flint and we think about, you know, auto

26:11

city and but that, that doesn't mean everybody

26:13

has the same access via, you

26:15

know, transportation. Could you speak to the

26:18

reasons that caused the gaps in access

26:20

to care in Flint?

26:21

Yeah, I think there's definitely multiple,

26:24

multiple reasons, multifactorial

26:26

probably not necessarily unique to Flint

26:28

overall, but I think because so

26:30

many of them are happening in Flint, that may be

26:33

something that hopefully will eventually

26:35

be addressed, but it's definitely something that

26:37

kind of upended the health access realm

26:39

around here. We do have transportation

26:41

issues. Flint is not a major

26:44

city that has this huge

26:46

public transit system. And so it's

26:48

kind of the city that you probably need a

26:50

car in, even though it's It's

26:52

takes 15 minutes to get from one end to the other

26:55

on either direction. So it's not that

26:57

large, but when you think about people

26:59

not being able to get to

27:01

school, get to work, get to their grocery store

27:04

getting to the health doctor is also on that list.

27:06

And so translation is it's concern. We have

27:08

a public bus system. But it,

27:10

you know, that depends on where the line is

27:12

and where you are in, in proximity

27:14

to that line. We do have the.

27:18

The consequences of the

27:20

automotive industry, I'll, I'll call it.

27:22

It's still kind of present, but not

27:25

as thriving as it used to be. And so

27:27

that has changed the financial situation

27:30

of Flint significantly as it tries

27:32

to figure out. What type of opportunities

27:34

will bring safe and good jobs

27:37

to the area that will give people a living

27:39

wage, but also opportunities to,

27:41

to build on whatever visions and dreams they have.

27:43

And so finances are always

27:45

kind of a reason why people have some

27:47

difficulty to access. We do have a high Medicaid

27:50

population when it comes to health insurance. So there

27:52

are some access opportunities, but when

27:55

you don't have enough primary care doctors

27:57

in the area, you're not going Having the insurance

27:59

that will allow you to do that is one

28:02

thing, not having a lot of direct primary care

28:04

clinics like myself is one thing And

28:06

so we do have a shortage of,

28:08

of doctors overall. But I also think

28:10

that because of the history of Flint from

28:12

the water crisis to the automotive

28:15

industry and the recessions before the rest

28:17

of the nation kind of, experienced them

28:19

does kind of highlight and stress

28:21

the health system here because even

28:23

when you are able to provide certain things, people

28:26

have different reasons on why they aren't able to

28:28

access that or. Follow through with

28:30

something. Some of that is literacy. Some

28:32

of that is opportunity. And some of it

28:34

is, is trusting kind of that, that will

28:37

be beneficial versus it's just someone

28:39

generically doing their job.

28:41

So let me ask you here, because,

28:43

you know, this is a very it's a very

28:46

pertinent discussion to have when

28:48

we talk about Medicaid recipients in

28:50

California, it's Medi Cal, the rest of the nation, it's Medicaid.

28:56

percentage of your population at Harris Family

28:59

Health who has Medicaid as

29:01

insurance for their health care, as

29:03

well as a DPC membership under you?

29:05

Yeah, so I think it's about 20

29:07

percent or 25 percent of my patients have

29:09

Medicaid. One of the beauties of

29:11

the DPC clinic is that anyone and everyone

29:14

can be a member. And so I do

29:16

have a good percentage of

29:19

Medicaid patients, Medicare and

29:21

uninsured patients. In my, in

29:24

my panel overall. So there's a diverse

29:26

options for people to Depending

29:29

on what they're thinking.

29:30

And what would you say to the critics

29:33

of DPC who say that direct

29:35

primary care is a vehicle so people

29:37

can cherry pick their patients? Because

29:40

that is unfortunately a criticism that

29:42

I've read on pretty heavy,

29:44

you know, pretty well known publications and

29:46

it makes it sound like we don't take anyone who's actually,

29:49

you know, got a chronic illness or sick

29:51

or actually needs care.

29:52

Yeah.

29:52

That's an interesting statement. And I've

29:54

read that also. And my

29:57

experience as a family doctor is

29:59

I get patients who are more

30:01

simple. They come in for screeners. They

30:04

don't have a lot of acute or chronic

30:06

issues. But I also get patients

30:08

who have chronic issues that they

30:10

haven't been able to manage well or

30:12

just haven't had a great experience in a system. And

30:15

on top of that, I've gotten patients who

30:17

they've tried to get things addressed in the system

30:20

and it hasn't been. Addressed

30:22

appropriately, or they've been kind of blown

30:24

off as like, that's not that big of a deal or you're

30:26

kind of making it up. And so as much

30:29

as people think that we may be picking

30:31

our patients, that's far from the truth. I'm

30:33

a family doctor. And so I take care of children

30:35

and adults and I take them as

30:37

they are. And I try and be a resource and asset

30:40

for whatever is going on. And

30:42

I know my scope and my limitations,

30:44

and that doesn't change because I'm doing. Direct

30:46

primary care. I'm able to do

30:48

what I can with my knowledge of my skills, and then

30:51

I refer and help them

30:53

navigate the system in different ways,

30:55

depending on what their needs are. But I think

30:57

that the most important and consistent

31:00

thing that my patients have is that they

31:02

want to feel more empowered about

31:04

their health and they want to prioritize it a different way

31:06

that the the current health system

31:08

that majority of patients are within,

31:11

it wasn't addressing their needs. And so

31:14

I have great relationships with my current

31:16

patients and whether that is direct

31:18

primary care or the, the uh, FFS

31:21

system, I know that I

31:23

try and be a great resource and asset no matter

31:25

how patients are coming at me.

31:27

Now let me go back to this idea

31:29

that that there might not be trust in healthcare

31:32

in general around the Flint area. For

31:34

all the many reasons that you've shared. When

31:37

people decided to join Harris Family Health,

31:39

can you talk to us about if

31:42

people were a little, coming, coming

31:44

to the table with that skepticism of like,

31:46

what is this direct primary care business? Like,

31:49

why would I invest

31:51

my dollars in this membership,

31:53

and is this going to be worth

31:56

it in terms of me getting my healthcare questions

31:58

answered?

31:59

Yeah, I think the most common thing that happens

32:01

when people come for their first appointment is

32:04

how refreshing it is to, Being

32:06

in a space that feels like the

32:08

person cares about you. Like I don't know them yet,

32:10

but my clinic environment already

32:12

creates a space that people are about to

32:15

tell me some of the things that they are not telling

32:17

anyone else. And the doctor world, we

32:19

get TMI too much information all the

32:21

time. Like that's literally my job is to get too much

32:23

information and to ask people questions

32:26

that they might not want to answer,

32:28

but it's important for whatever next steps and recommendations

32:31

that I, I make, but. One

32:33

of the things that I try and instill

32:35

in kind of the environment and space and

32:38

vibe of my clinic is, I think

32:40

time and trust are the most important things

32:42

when it comes to being a doctor. If I

32:44

don't have enough time with the patient, then they aren't able

32:46

to tell me their concerns. If I don't

32:48

have enough time, I'm not able to

32:51

express my recommendations and, and, and

32:53

bet out kind of whatever their concerns are.

32:55

But in that same instance, if my patients don't trust

32:58

me, it doesn't matter how much time I have, they're not going

33:00

to say anything. And so. My direct

33:02

primary care clinic, but also just my style as

33:04

a doctor prioritizes time and

33:06

trust. And even though people have had different

33:08

experiences, I'm not saying

33:10

that the health system that currently exists

33:13

is the worst. I'm not saying that it

33:15

is not going to be able to help people.

33:17

I'm just saying there are some people who need a different

33:19

approach to how they are accessing the health system.

33:22

And sometimes they need a different asset, which I think

33:24

that I'm able to be as their direct

33:26

primary care doctor.

33:28

can you talk to us about how your clinic

33:30

has grown and what factors

33:32

have led to growth of your membership at Harris

33:34

Family Health?

33:35

one of the things, even though I worked in

33:37

the Flint area for two years prior

33:40

to my clinic opening,

33:42

It was as if no one knew me at all still.

33:45

I was within that health system. People made

33:47

new patient appointments. Every once in

33:49

a while someone refer them refer

33:52

a family or friend to me to, to help

33:54

with their health care concerns. But

33:56

when I started my direct primary care clinic,

33:58

it was as if I basically just moved back home and

34:01

no one knew that I was a doctor here. And

34:03

so when I was starting, it

34:05

was a lot of trying to be present in spaces.

34:08

Part of it was just spaces that I already.

34:10

Wish I was in, but I didn't have the time for,

34:12

but some of it was as a, as a new small business,

34:15

trying to integrate into

34:17

the business world in our community, but

34:19

also just into community

34:22

kind of opportunity. So people would know that I was,

34:24

I was present. But as the

34:26

last year has kind of gone, I've

34:29

done different marketing things. I like to tell

34:31

people that. At at

34:33

base, I'm a small business owner, and so

34:35

all the things that are helping and not helping

34:37

other small businesses, I'm dealing with those challenges

34:40

and those successes too. And so

34:42

I've applied for different opportunities

34:44

to have a billboard and to

34:46

have a commercial and to get

34:48

different exposures in our in our local

34:50

kind of newspaper. But most importantly,

34:53

I'm present in the community. And so my

34:55

clinic has grown because of people seeing

34:58

the classic marketing things,

35:00

but it has more importantly,

35:02

and my favorite kind of way of growth grown

35:05

from word of mouth grown from people seeing

35:07

me do some health education,

35:09

talk, or do some outreach thing, which

35:12

those I'm not necessarily doing to

35:14

gather and promote my clinic. I'm

35:16

doing because I feel. The upstream

35:18

impact of health education and health literacy

35:21

work. And if someone decides

35:23

that they want to check out my clinic, that's an added

35:25

bonus, but I know, very

35:27

well that most of the people in the city are not going to be

35:30

my Like that's just the reality of being

35:32

a doctor, like. You can't be everyone's doctor.

35:34

And so my big thing is trying to

35:36

be a community doctor and be an accident resource.

35:39

And so many of my patients have come

35:41

from me just being involved in a community.

35:43

And some of that involvement is formal health things.

35:46

Some of that involvement is just me going

35:48

to a festival, just like they are Them

35:50

seeing me present. And which is

35:52

why on my website, it says I, I

35:54

live and work in Flint because

35:57

a lot of doctors don't actually live in the same

35:59

community that they care for. My office

36:01

is not that far from my home and I

36:03

specifically bought a home in Flint because that was always

36:05

one of my goals when I moved back. And so all

36:07

these things are kind of coming together as ways

36:10

that I've built my clinic over the past year

36:12

and ways I've connected with my community

36:14

overall, and I'm just kind of reaping

36:16

the benefits of being present and

36:18

being available and people slowly

36:20

learning more about what direct primary care is

36:23

and if it will work for them.

36:24

Now I want to ask about pricing because your

36:27

pricing, you know, being the first direct

37:11

primary care in Flint, Michigan, how

37:13

did you determine pricing that would work

37:15

for you and work for your members and community?

37:18

Yeah, so I know, depending on

37:20

where you are in the U. S., everyone has

37:22

different kind of pricing, different cost

37:24

of living kind of requirements. And so,

37:27

I based mine on what

37:30

was generally happening in the DPC world

37:32

as far as pricing, but more

37:34

specifically what was happening in the state

37:36

of Michigan regarding pricing. I,

37:38

I originally, I started out with like tiered base

37:41

where different age groups had

37:43

different pricing as far as different age groups within

37:45

adulthood. And then I realized that

37:47

I just wanted to simplify my life even more

37:49

and just kind of go with one adult price

37:51

and one child price but I ultimately.

37:55

settled or decided on the price based on

37:57

what my cost needs were for my business

37:59

and my and my personal expenses. But

38:01

also kind of how many people I

38:03

expected or wanted to reach

38:06

as far as my patient panel size.

38:08

Because I realized early on that

38:11

I'm not a 600 plus D.

38:14

P. C. Clinic type person. And

38:16

that's because as I got More

38:18

into like outreach

38:20

and community work. I realized that I

38:23

wanted to always have time for that. And

38:25

so my price kind of reflects

38:27

the fact that I want to be a clinician

38:29

and be a personal doctor to many people, but

38:31

I also want to be a community doctor and

38:34

be out in the community. And so that's kind of

38:36

how I, I got to my price range.

38:38

Just trying to get a, get

38:40

a spot where it doesn't feel like it's

38:43

a complete stretch. That

38:45

is, you know, not much more than the water bill.

38:47

Not much is, you know, in that same price

38:49

range as internet and cell phones and stuff.

38:52

That it was more tangible and not

38:54

kind of out of reach for most people. And I think

38:56

the diversity of my panel kind of shows that, that

38:58

the price is not so much what is hindering

39:01

the diversity. It's giving people an opportunity

39:03

to see that, okay, I can have quality care

39:05

for not that much.

39:06

And can you just run down just

39:09

really globally when you talk about

39:11

being a small business owner and the cost of running

39:13

a business, what are the things that, you

39:15

know, your that are included

39:17

in your overhead? A lot of medical students and

39:19

residents ask this because they're

39:22

saying, Oh, well, you know, how much

39:24

money do I need to prepare for DPC or whatnot?

39:26

So when you think about your

39:28

own overhead, what are the, what are the

39:30

components that are coming regularly for your overhead

39:33

expenditures?

39:35

Yeah, I've gotten this question to from

39:37

residents and medical students because part

39:39

of it is we don't teach the business side of medicine.

39:42

And then the overhead is not

39:44

even specific to medicine. It's really just business

39:47

overhead. But it didn't

39:49

take that much for me to start my clinic. I

39:51

think I started with like 5, 000

39:54

and a third of that was my medical

39:56

license that I cost a lot

39:58

of money. But you know, My

40:00

overhead, majority of it is my malpractice

40:03

insurance and my rent. And

40:05

with that my clinic didn't start

40:07

out very large. Like I have multiple rooms

40:09

now, but it was originally only

40:12

one room. And that one room was 400

40:14

a month. And my about practice is only

40:16

a few hundred dollars a month. I've expanded now my

40:18

clinic, but it's still within

40:20

a good realm as far as not being

40:22

too expensive. There's a lot of softwares

40:24

that you kind of pay for. But what I like

40:26

to tell people is I already went to medical school.

40:29

That was the most expensive thing to

40:31

do. The direct primary care clinic that

40:34

my medical license and the

40:36

education that went behind that is the most

40:38

expensive part. So if you come into

40:41

the direct primary care mindset in

40:43

world wanting to start a clinic, once

40:45

you get your medical license, everything

40:48

else is not. It's not that expensive. Like

40:52

my student loans are way more than what my

40:54

clinic is costing me on a, on a yearly basis.

40:56

And so, I appreciate that reality

40:58

that it doesn't cost that much. And

41:01

it's very humbling to realize

41:03

that, okay, if so and so can

41:05

do a business out of their garage or,

41:07

you know, do something randomly and

41:09

they haven't quite, you know, went to

41:11

medical school or, or not necessarily

41:13

medical school. I haven't went to like business school. Like people start

41:15

businesses all the time. And the

41:17

reality of a medical office opening

41:20

my malpractice and my, my rent are the

41:22

most expensive things. And if

41:24

you're able to regulate those, everything else is,

41:27

it's not that much a month.

41:28

Definitely appreciate you sharing that because

41:31

it, it, I think it also

41:33

just erases some of that black box

41:35

of like, what does it cost to run a DPC

41:38

or what are the factors financially to think about

41:40

when opening a DPC? So

41:42

now I want to shift to talking about

41:44

how with direct primary care

41:46

as the way that you're practicing medicine, you're

41:49

able to be a community doctor and

41:51

you are absolutely present when it comes

41:53

to your sub stack newsletter, when it

41:55

comes to your advocacy. So

41:57

can you share about the

41:59

different avenues of being present

42:02

in your community that you are, that

42:04

you were involved in because of you

42:06

being a DPC doctor and having the time to be present?

42:09

Yeah, no, that's, that's

42:11

a, that's a very

42:13

good question. And over time

42:15

that list has gotten longer and longer because I

42:17

realized how many things I enjoy

42:20

doing. I am a full time DPC

42:22

doctor, but with DPC

42:24

and the flexibility of it all, I'm able

42:26

to navigate these different spaces

42:29

with a lot of passion and excitement without the

42:31

idea that, oh, I'm not taking care of my patients

42:33

or this is going to stress me out. And so really

42:36

at all. has been balancing out and been

42:38

a great opportunity. But as far as

42:40

different things the first thing I ever did

42:42

kind of when I started my clinic was

42:45

become a regular writer,

42:47

a health columnist for one of our local

42:49

newspaper, the Flint Courier News, which

42:51

is one of the oldest newspapers in Michigan

42:54

um, that's specifically black owned. And so I write in

42:56

that twice a month different topics

42:58

as a primary care doctor. I really just

43:00

like, Oh, what have people been asking me lately?

43:02

I'm going to write an article about that. And so that's

43:04

been kind of cool and a way for people to kind of learn

43:06

information. I have a passion

43:09

for pipeline work when it comes to building

43:11

our health, our healthcare professionals

43:13

in general. And so I wrote a book called

43:16

60 plus health careers. You should know about. It's

43:19

specifically not just doctors,

43:21

not just nurses, but every

43:23

career that could possibly have a

43:25

glimpse and connection to health

43:27

as in that from technicians to doctors

43:30

to therapists. The art therapy,

43:32

music therapy different kind

43:34

of computer based jobs and things like

43:36

that, because I think we just have a shortage across the

43:38

board and part of the health career gap

43:41

and shortage is the fact that people don't know

43:43

these jobs exist. And so I wrote that book. I've.

43:46

In the same connection with that with the pipeline

43:48

where I had a youth health summit called

43:51

the Mindful and Motivated Youth Health Summit last

43:53

year that had an opportunity

43:55

for high school students to learn CPR,

43:58

there was a panel of other doctors, medical

44:00

doctors, physical therapy doctors

44:03

pharmacists, PhD doctors,

44:05

a mental health component just exposing students so

44:07

some of those students are going to be like, no, health is not for me.

44:10

But there's also going to be some students that are going to say, I really

44:12

want to pursue a health career from, from that summit.

44:14

I'm getting more into environmental climate

44:17

and environment work. I'm the new climate and

44:19

environmental health director of the Young Gifted

44:21

nonprofit that does work in Flint, but

44:23

also in other cities across the country,

44:26

especially for black communities impacted

44:28

by environmental and climate concerns

44:31

and, and disparities. I

44:33

have. Been doing

44:36

A climate and health equity

44:39

fellowship through the medical society

44:41

consortium on climate and health. And so that's an

44:43

opportunity for me to learn more about

44:46

environment and climate health. I

44:48

have a Flint Health Hub

44:50

newsletter. That's kind of on pause right now,

44:52

but it was A way for me to share health

44:54

related information to the community as far as

44:56

stuff that was in our journals, but also responding

44:59

specifically to different things going on as far

45:01

as just like my thoughts on different health

45:03

topics that were prevalent in, in the

45:05

Flint area this year or

45:08

kind of end of last year, I started the Flint doc talks,

45:10

which is kind of a podcast, kind of

45:12

a fireside chat. Where I'm bringing

45:14

community doctors in as well

45:16

as community health professionals indirectly

45:18

and directly related to health and kind of

45:20

asking them questions and having a, a real

45:23

discussion about concerns we have in the Flint area

45:25

and things that people should know about. I've

45:27

been doing different. public

45:29

health and advocacy work with the Michigan

45:32

Academy of Family Physicians and in part

45:34

the American Academy for Family Physicians as

45:37

well as the National Medical Association.

45:39

And that is probably more public

45:41

health health policy in the state and

45:44

national kind of sense. Because

45:46

there's a lot of work that has to be done as far

45:48

as the laws and policies that

45:50

we navigate as doctors,

45:53

but also that our patients try to navigate. So I

45:55

try and be more present in those spaces

45:57

because I have time because I know

45:59

what the, the consequence of poor

46:01

health access is and what health disparities

46:04

really look like. And so I try and, Voicing

46:06

my experiences to those kind

46:08

of spaces and opportunities. I

46:11

recently started the, Enviro Flint

46:13

website on my own website to be

46:15

specific about the environmental concerns

46:17

and information that people in Flint should know about whether

46:20

it's air, water, land and what

46:22

our climate risks are as far as natural

46:24

disasters and other emergency preparedness

46:26

kind of things. More recently,

46:29

which is I'm kind of currently in the series the

46:31

emerging preparedness classes that I'm doing.

46:33

I think that the world is struggling, like.

46:36

It's getting hot. Things are changing.

46:38

And so as much as we talk about trying to prevent

46:41

that, I'm also trying to prepare people

46:43

for the reality of things are changing and

46:45

making them reflect on how prepared they are for

46:47

medical and environmental emergencies. And so

46:49

that class. Has me teaching people

46:52

CPR, teaching them basic first

46:54

aid talking about emergency preparedness class

46:56

not classes emergency preparedness plans and

46:58

kits. And kind of what you should be doing in

47:00

different disaster settings. As far

47:02

as the, the teaching people CPR and first

47:04

aid, I think for me personally, I feel like.

47:07

People who are in education and people

47:09

are in health always are learning

47:11

CPR as far as BLS and ACLS,

47:14

but the community needs to know it, too. Michigan

47:17

actually has a high

47:19

school rule that, not rule or law,

47:21

that high school students learn CPR,

47:23

but that wasn't until 2016. That was years

47:26

after I was in high school, and so most people,

47:28

unless they're told that they have to learn CPR,

47:31

may not have learned it. If they did learn it,

47:33

it may have been a while. And so,

47:35

this emergency preparedness class is just the first stint

47:37

of me trying to do more

47:40

micro CPR classes,

47:42

because I think that everyone should know how to do chest

47:44

compressions. Everyone should try

47:46

and the opportunity that if it presents

47:48

itself, I hope no one ever has to, but I

47:51

want people to be better prepared and

47:53

have that opportunity to feel like they could contribute

47:55

to saving a life because we know that most

47:57

cardiac arrests happen outside the hospital. And it. You

48:00

are able to do CPR on someone, you

48:02

increase their risk of survival by two or three times.

48:04

And so, there's a lot of things as a primary

48:06

care doctor that I'm into and It all kind

48:09

of stems from health literacy work.

48:11

And then being in a community that has a lot of health disparities,

48:13

I'm really just trying to be an asset and

48:15

resource. And so as much as I have my

48:17

own things that I'm planning, I'm also

48:20

available for people in my community to ask

48:22

me to speak for things. And so I've done

48:24

different talks for like small

48:26

groups. I've done different talks for like

48:28

many conferences or, or many events

48:30

that people have had. And I really just want people

48:32

to see. Me as someone who is

48:35

willing to talk to people, has a way of

48:37

explaining things that's understandable and digestible,

48:40

but is excited to kind of spread

48:42

information. If I just know all the stuff that I learned in medical

48:44

school, that's not fun. I want other people

48:46

to know it too. And so I've been trying to do

48:48

a lot of things in the community as far as education

48:51

work and just being available. Like, I

48:53

feel like I'm approachable and, and

48:56

a nice person. And I think that makes

48:58

for a lot of great relationships and connections.

49:00

But I think when people hear how I explain things

49:02

and how it's not over their head, that I'm

49:04

not talking beyond them, that I'm talking with

49:07

them and trying to help them understand,

49:09

I think. That has given me a lot of opportunities to

49:11

connect with the community and really trying to

49:13

spread a lot of health information.

49:16

So if you are listening to Dr.

49:18

Harris and you are applauding her

49:20

beyond belief, you're not alone. Like,

49:22

that is insane. And it's,

49:24

it's so awesome that you were able to

49:27

do this when you came from a place where you're like,

49:29

I'm physically hurting when I'm at work

49:31

and I cannot do this six months into

49:33

the job to the amazing,

49:35

impactful person you are right now. With

49:38

all of the stuff that you are doing What

49:41

is your level of burnout

49:43

if, if it exists compared to

49:45

where you were before because

49:47

you're, you are so, I mean, like

49:49

when you're talking, you're smiling, you're alive,

49:52

you're, you're making such an impact. Are

49:54

you experiencing any you know, overextended,

49:57

never ended type situation with

49:59

your DPC being full time as well?

50:02

I would say no. It took almost a year

50:04

for me to recover from the burnout that I was experiencing.

50:07

And I say that trying to

50:09

inform people that it's not going to be like a quick,

50:11

like a flick of the wrist

50:13

or and just kind of turn over as far as,

50:15

okay, I'm out of this experience. I'm out of this

50:17

environment. Now, now I'm no longer burned out.

50:20

And so it did take me some months. It took me, it took

50:22

me a while, but part of that process and

50:24

journey was amplified

50:26

and supported by the fact that I

50:28

was doing things that I enjoyed. Last

50:30

year, I describe it as my year of yes. And

50:33

I was able to say yes to so many things

50:35

that I like that Asia just

50:37

want to do or Dr. Harris just want to do. And

50:39

so that gave me all these other opportunities. I didn't think

50:41

that I was going to have all of this. I have

50:43

this long list of things to to

50:46

say a year into starting

50:48

my clinic, but it just kind of happened that way

50:50

as far as, you know, Me realizing the things I

50:52

enjoy me realizing the

50:54

skills that I had and kind of how that overlaps.

50:57

I don't want to burn out again, but

50:59

I want to enjoy every single day. I

51:01

don't want to be, you know, waiting for the weekend

51:03

to happen. I want this random Tuesday

51:06

or this random Thursday to be a great day.

51:08

And so I started doing things that I

51:10

enjoyed. I started being involved in the community a

51:12

lot more and, and showing up to stuff that

51:14

I wanted to. Support. And then

51:16

that, you know, gave

51:18

me the opportunity to meet other people who are doing things that

51:20

I, that I liked what they were doing, and

51:23

I wanted to support it in whatever way I could, but

51:25

also they wanted to support me and some of the

51:27

random ideas that I thought, and once

51:29

I got out of school. the employed

51:31

like life, I realized that there were so many

51:33

things that I wanted to

51:35

do. Like I actually, I teach medical

51:37

students now as the family medicine assistant

51:40

residency or assistant clerkship

51:42

director here in the Flint campus of Michigan state

51:44

universities college of human medicine. And so

51:46

I didn't think that I was going to be able to be involved in medical

51:49

school like work like that, because

51:51

it's hard to balance clinical

51:53

work as well as academia, but

51:56

because of how many things

51:58

I've been involved in and how I've kind of managed

52:00

my time, I'm able to say yes to

52:02

things, not too much, but like say

52:04

yes to a little bit of something and then see

52:06

where it goes and kind of build from there. But

52:09

I really didn't think that this was going to happen. Within

52:11

one year of me going out on my own,

52:13

I knew that I was interested in things, but

52:16

all the yeses that I've gotten the last year

52:18

have been amazing. But I think

52:20

as much as I am doing a lot of things, I'm

52:22

very aware of how my time is

52:24

allocated and I

52:27

realized I am very afraid of

52:29

burning out again. I got just, I

52:31

just don't want to do go through that

52:33

again. And so I, as much as

52:35

I'm this list of the things that I'm into is,

52:37

is long and it's growing. I say

52:39

yes, but I also say no. Because

52:42

I want to enjoy every day of my life

52:44

and I don't want to be in the same position I

52:46

was in a couple of years ago. But.

52:49

The joy you get from doing things that you enjoy

52:51

is amazing. And

52:53

I just want to keep that momentum going. And

52:56

what I'm doing now may be completely different in a couple

52:58

of years. Like, I don't know. But I'm willing to

53:00

adjust and adapt and, and see how

53:02

it goes, but also prioritize

53:04

my own peace and joy on a regular basis.

53:06

I love that. And I love that, you know, the

53:08

people who are the medical students

53:11

are seeing you and are, you know, they're,

53:13

they're getting that model of what primary

53:15

care can actually be. And so

53:17

that's, that's absolutely priceless. Now

53:20

one of the things that you had done in

53:22

your DPC journey is you had spoken

53:24

at the American Academy of Family Medicine

53:27

residents and medical student forum. And

53:29

so I wanted to ask about for those

53:31

people who, you know, weren't aware that you

53:33

did What did you

53:35

speak specifically about? And how

53:37

did you, how did you

53:39

in such a short amount of time because no

53:41

speakers given, you know, like, like this

53:44

talk already is longer than unfortunately

53:46

what you are given on stage most of the time. How

53:48

do you boil down your

53:50

message? You know, succinctly

53:53

and concretely and You

53:55

know, with fueled with the passion

53:57

and the joy that you have experienced as

53:59

a doctor doing this model of care, along

54:02

with everything else that you have listed that you've been

54:04

able to do.

54:05

that was a great opportunity last summer to talk

54:08

at the student resident conference.

54:10

And so they had asked me back probably

54:12

this time last year, if I wanted to

54:15

be a guest speaker on these, the it

54:17

was a main stage kind of small talk,

54:19

and so we all had less than 10 minutes to tell our

54:21

story. And so everyone, the beauty

54:23

of family medicine is that everyone has a different story,

54:26

has a different kind of passion. And that's kind of

54:28

the reason I fell in love with family medicine is that

54:30

every family medicine doctor has their own thing

54:32

that they really enjoy. And the common denominators

54:34

that they really are doing something they enjoy. And

54:36

so I want to be part of. That

54:39

same group of people. And so this

54:41

conference talk was just me talking on

54:43

stage in front of the residents and students and telling

54:45

my story from the engineering

54:48

chapter. To transitioning

54:50

to like medical school, to

54:52

then transitioning to a business owner in

54:54

medicine. And so my, my

54:56

story in that short time was about

54:59

having the courage to kind

55:01

of jump into new spaces and jump into new realms

55:03

and then realizing the growth and the beauty of.

55:06

Kind of taking that risk. And so I

55:08

just talked about, you know, obviously more details

55:11

about different kind of pivotal moments.

55:13

But I prioritize peace and joy

55:15

now a lot more than I did years ago. And

55:17

so a lot of things that I do, as much

55:19

as it all seems kind of random

55:21

and miscellaneous is exactly

55:23

who I am. I have a lot of other

55:25

ideas that I'm waiting to kind of hopefully

55:28

bring out in, in some former fashion,

55:30

but everything that I do right now is, is

55:32

based off of peace and joy and those

55:34

opportunities to have that balance that I have

55:37

right now is stemmed from the courage

55:39

to take those, those different risks that, you

55:41

know, people on the outside are like, why, you know, why are you doing that?

55:43

It's, it's, it's comfortable here. It's stable here.

55:45

And like, it's fine. Like you don't need,

55:47

you know, peace and joy all the time. Like just.

55:50

Do what you got to do and go home or something.

55:53

But I don't, I didn't want to live like that. And so all

55:55

of my transitions have. Been me reflecting

55:58

on what I really wanted and stepping

56:00

out and trying something different and so

56:02

far it's worked out, but I also said in that conversation

56:04

with the students and residents that. Years

56:06

from now, I might change my mind. I might not

56:09

be doing as much community stuff. I might get into

56:11

more, I might pick one thing instead of doing so many

56:13

diverse things or might, you know,

56:15

open up and find out there's some other space

56:18

that really kind of caused me in that moment

56:20

and try it then. So we'll see. But I

56:22

really try and prioritize the peace and joy,

56:24

because I think that's super important to maintain

56:27

our mental health, but also just enjoy life in general.

56:30

when it comes to the courage that you've had

56:32

and you've shown up with and you've developed

56:34

when it comes to this peace and joy that you're also

56:37

experiencing I want to ask

56:39

about this, the, the, the small

56:41

business ownership roller coaster, because

56:44

it is not always, you know, super

56:46

peaceful and joyful on that ride. There definitely

56:48

are ups and downs or there can be. So

56:51

I want to ask. At Harris

56:53

Family Health, what, if anything,

56:55

of a rollercoaster ride have you experienced

56:57

with your business in and of itself,

57:00

and how have you stuck with it

57:02

so that you've carved out this life

57:05

of peace and joy that you are experiencing

57:07

right now?

57:08

I definitely had a roller coaster and that's

57:10

how I describe it. I think one of the

57:12

beauties, but also challenges of direct

57:14

primary care is the fact that it is so new,

57:17

but it's so innovative, but it's also

57:19

so new and innovative that a lot of people are

57:21

not quite aware of the benefits or the

57:23

options they have with it. And so a

57:26

lot of my challenges Just awareness

57:28

and people not, not quite knowing

57:30

what to expect and

57:32

having some reservations on if they want to try

57:35

it or not. And so that's not

57:37

actually unique to DPC world. That's

57:39

cause small biz life in general, like you got

57:41

to figure out what to. What

57:43

to say and what to do to connect more with

57:46

people in order to get them to want to to

57:48

try your service to try your product. But

57:50

I think the roller coaster that

57:52

I've had have all probably

57:55

been been based off the fact that

57:58

from medical school to residency

58:00

to post residency. I always had a plan. And

58:02

this is an unplanned chapter.

58:05

That I put on myself. Um, And so

58:07

I don't know what March

58:09

is going to look like. I don't know what 2024

58:12

is going to look like. I don't know what 2025

58:14

is going to look like. And I've been previously

58:16

had, you know, chapters where I knew where there was

58:18

an end. You know, when you're going to graduate

58:21

medical school, when you're going to finish residency

58:23

for my health service core commitment,

58:25

I knew when that was going to end, like I knew all these

58:27

things. And so that's been a transition.

58:30

As far as figuring out in this

58:32

endless chapter that I'm in, because I don't know

58:34

when the next one, you know, page

58:36

might turn what it's looking like right

58:38

now and how I'm managing my emotions and my expectations.

58:42

When I first started my direct primary care clinic

58:44

a lot of people talk about, you know, walking in with, you

58:46

know, hundreds of people or tens of, you

58:48

know, 20, 30, 50 people or whatever

58:50

it may be. I didn't walk in with that many.

58:52

I started my clinic with five people and

58:54

I had to have a lot of trust that, that five

58:57

people was going to turn into something that could cover

58:59

my expenses and then I could turn to something that

59:01

I can kind of pay myself and then eventually, you

59:04

know, cover my personal, like all these

59:06

things that every business kind of

59:08

deals with is like you want to provide

59:10

a good service and product. But also

59:12

want to be able to support yourself

59:15

as far as food on your table, mortgage,

59:17

your car payment, all these things, but

59:19

you want to trust the process, but

59:21

you can't really trust the process always when

59:23

bills come. Like that's adulthood

59:25

is bills come every single month. You're like, I got it

59:27

this month. Next month, do I got it? Like,

59:30

and so that's a reality that I had to deal

59:32

with constantly in over the last

59:34

year is like, what does the next kind of month

59:36

look like? As much as I have people

59:38

who are my patients right now, they

59:41

can easily decide next month that they don't

59:43

want to do this anymore. They can move like, who knows?

59:45

Like, so on a month to month basis, I'm

59:48

not quite sure how many people are going to continue

59:50

with my, my clinic and continue having me as

59:52

their doctor. But. More

59:54

specifically, I'm just not quite sure what

59:56

DPC looks like in Flint when I'm the first

59:59

one who's been here. And so

1:00:01

I, I appreciate all the people who have, who

1:00:03

have been my patients so far and who continue

1:00:05

to ask questions and sign up

1:00:07

and support this new business,

1:00:09

but more importantly, they're, they're prioritizing their, their

1:00:11

health in a different way. And so as much

1:00:13

as I think about the business side, I

1:00:16

think about the fact that I'm caring for people on a regular

1:00:18

basis in a way they want to be cared for

1:00:20

conveniently and thoroughly. Despite

1:00:23

the fact that internally I'm always like,

1:00:25

Oh man, like what is going to happen? But I've gotten

1:00:28

a lot of, you know, great connections and support

1:00:30

throughout the year as far as small business aspect

1:00:33

because no matter what the small business is,

1:00:35

it's going to go through different

1:00:37

trials. And I can't say that the rollercoaster

1:00:39

feeling goes away. It just goes

1:00:42

in, in different ways. And

1:00:44

it's funny because like everything, a chunk of the things

1:00:46

that are happening right now in, in, in 2024

1:00:49

is because my rollercoaster was intense in November

1:00:51

and that's right also where my birthday month is.

1:00:54

And I was like, oh, I don't know. This is,

1:00:56

this is kind of tough. This is getting difficult.

1:00:58

I mean, I was always almost at my year point, but

1:01:00

I was like, this is not the year that I thought it

1:01:02

was going to be. But then I have to recognize

1:01:04

the growth that I had over the year. Like, You

1:01:07

started with no one, and now you have enough

1:01:09

people to cover your expenses, I shot my shot,

1:01:11

I I have to recognize That's how I got the

1:01:14

community and environmental director job, and it was like,

1:01:16

have the time and the passion and

1:01:19

my clinic is going to grow how it's going to grow,

1:01:21

and I balance things out because not

1:01:23

all are able to just go out

1:01:25

on their own with additional support.

1:01:27

And I didn't have a side gig part

1:01:30

time job because I had burned out

1:01:32

so hard that I was like not doing any clinical

1:01:34

work for anyone else. I'm only doing the work for So

1:01:37

I had to be more creative with different

1:01:40

opportunities that were nonclinical that would support

1:01:42

me kind of financially Different spaces

1:01:44

that I didn't think that I previously would be able

1:01:47

to be in.

1:01:47

That's awesome. And I just, as you were speaking

1:01:50

about this rollercoaster in the beginning, one of the things

1:01:52

that I will say for the audience is the

1:01:54

other Dr. Harris, who has been on the podcast

1:01:57

Dr. Erin Harris down in Atlanta,

1:01:59

the Atlanta area she's in Peachtree city

1:02:01

specifically, but Definitely listen to her

1:02:03

episode also, because she talks

1:02:06

about how she had five patients

1:02:08

for a very long time, not just in the first few

1:02:10

months and opening. So, this,

1:02:12

this rollercoaster manifests in different ways,

1:02:14

as you're saying for everybody, one of

1:02:16

the things I want to ask you now just

1:02:18

gets into, like, the,

1:02:21

the voice that you have

1:02:23

Found and amplified in yourself

1:02:26

and that you could potentially inspire

1:02:28

other physicians with. And I

1:02:30

say that because I read

1:02:32

this statement when you were

1:02:34

doing work with the National Medical

1:02:36

Association after your experience

1:02:39

there, or maybe near the end of your experience,

1:02:41

you said this quote I didn't think people

1:02:43

wanted to hear from a young doctor from Flint. I

1:02:45

didn't think my passion for public health and health policy

1:02:47

work would have me in positions to speak confidently,

1:02:50

despite not having an MPH or something else.

1:02:52

I didn't think I was experienced enough, but here I am,

1:02:54

one step closer to being at the table. Even

1:02:57

if I have to build it myself. And so

1:02:59

now the powerhouse that you are,

1:03:02

when you are making sure you're

1:03:04

protecting yourself, you're protecting yourself

1:03:06

from burnout, you're protecting your life

1:03:08

that you're carving with peace and joy at the forefront.

1:03:11

I want to ask about when you

1:03:13

hear other physicians, you know, maybe

1:03:16

having self confidence that is, you know, is,

1:03:18

is pretty, is, is on the low side or

1:03:21

they're doubting, you know, continuing medicine

1:03:23

in a particular way, especially because you're,

1:03:25

you're working with medical students and residents who are

1:03:27

more aware, I feel, than our generation

1:03:30

of doctors. You know, they're more aware

1:03:32

that this system is, that

1:03:34

there are, that there are issues

1:03:37

with it from the patient side as well as the

1:03:39

physician side. So when you're

1:03:41

talking to people and when you're talking to yourself,

1:03:44

how do you. I would recommend people

1:03:47

listen to that bright

1:03:49

light, you know, the, the pilot

1:03:51

light that's inside of us and nurture that

1:03:53

voice nurture that light so that it

1:03:56

propels us in positive

1:03:58

ways forward.

1:03:59

That is, that is such

1:04:02

a good question. I

1:04:04

love the quote that you pulled. I have forget

1:04:06

when I said that. But I've said it multiple

1:04:09

times that I felt that I was not

1:04:11

qualified for a lot of things. And

1:04:13

that feeling of the imposter

1:04:15

syndrome. I mean, that started when I was younger.

1:04:17

I mean, I went into engineering, which we talk

1:04:19

about there not being that many, you know, Black

1:04:21

women doctors, there's also not that many black

1:04:24

engineers. And so I've had to

1:04:26

exist in kind of movement spaces

1:04:28

that didn't have a lot of people like me for

1:04:30

a long time. And even outside

1:04:33

of the qualification aspects,

1:04:35

and I'm a full doctor, I practice medicine,

1:04:37

I stay evidence based, I know what

1:04:39

I know and I know what I don't know. And that

1:04:41

is kind of the reality of being. A doctor

1:04:44

who's trying to be present

1:04:46

and up to date, but also be humble

1:04:48

enough to know that there are, you know, other people

1:04:50

who know other things that I don't know. But

1:04:52

I think when I was

1:04:55

burning out, part of the motivation

1:04:57

of starting my own clinic was I

1:04:59

felt powerless. And

1:05:03

so I really want to take that power

1:05:05

back and in the process of

1:05:07

planning to open up my own direct primary care clinic,

1:05:09

and then eventually opening. Now

1:05:11

I have so much more confidence and

1:05:13

power in who I am and what

1:05:15

I can bring to the table. And in

1:05:17

that same context, like I said, I, I don't

1:05:20

mind coming to a table, but I also

1:05:22

don't mind. Building my own and

1:05:24

I realized that there were a lot of gatekeeping

1:05:27

in different spaces and just like,

1:05:29

people being naive or just unaware of

1:05:31

the diverse opportunities that other people can

1:05:34

bring to the table and and bring to

1:05:36

the conversation, which is kind

1:05:38

of why we have so much, you know, diversity,

1:05:40

equity and inclusion kind of initiatives

1:05:42

is because people are not bringing other

1:05:45

people into the space and environment

1:05:47

to support the cause, you

1:05:49

know, change up kind of what's happening,

1:05:51

give other kind of recommendations

1:05:53

and, and discussion kind of points and stuff.

1:05:55

And so, as I gained

1:05:57

my power and realized what I wanted to

1:05:59

do and recognize the qualifications

1:06:02

or requirements that people were putting on

1:06:05

these different spaces I realized I didn't

1:06:07

want to. Do those

1:06:09

kind of more formal things like an MPH

1:06:11

or some, some training, just to

1:06:13

say that I had it when I knew that I had

1:06:16

experience and a passion to, to

1:06:18

do you know, do various things. I do

1:06:20

health talk. I do outreach. A

1:06:22

lot of stuff is stemmed from my personal passion

1:06:24

and not because someone has told me to do

1:06:26

it. And now people are watching. Now people

1:06:28

are like, Oh, okay. So you can

1:06:30

do that without this, without

1:06:33

kind of this, you know, organization supporting

1:06:35

you or this person kind of co signing.

1:06:37

And I feel like. A

1:06:39

lot of the medical students that I work with every single

1:06:41

time that I talk to these different students

1:06:43

from the clerkship. I want them to feel

1:06:46

power now. I want them to feel like

1:06:48

if they that they feel that there's a concern

1:06:50

with a patient experience.

1:06:52

They feel there's a concern in their community and the society

1:06:55

that they are adults. They can say something.

1:06:57

They don't have to wait till the degree

1:07:00

confirms that they are knowledgeable

1:07:02

enough because our experiences are just

1:07:04

as important as, you know, having some expert knowledge.

1:07:07

And I feel like. Which

1:07:09

just probably stems from our generation being

1:07:11

told that we should go to college and get this and that

1:07:14

and then it didn't really work out that way that you

1:07:16

needed that college degree to do, you know,

1:07:18

certain things. And so I feel kind of tricked

1:07:20

in that way. But I feel because

1:07:22

of the route that I've taken into medicine that,

1:07:24

you know, When you realize

1:07:26

how much power you have, whether it's patient

1:07:29

advocacy or community work or policy

1:07:31

work or, you know, being involved

1:07:33

in academia, whatever it may be that you are

1:07:35

kind of gaining your power in it's

1:07:37

valuable. It's an intentional kind

1:07:40

of move for you to speak up about something.

1:07:42

And I, I don't like people feeling that

1:07:44

they have to feel silenced. Because like

1:07:46

I said, a core of my burnout was feeling powerless

1:07:49

and I didn't want to feel that way. And I knew

1:07:51

that my experiences being someone who was

1:07:53

born and raised in Flint, my experience being

1:07:55

someone who was initially thinking about medicine

1:07:58

someone who knew that I was going

1:08:00

to use my primary care Training

1:08:02

to come back home. I knew all these experiences

1:08:05

were intentional and were placing me in

1:08:07

spaces that I didn't plan on

1:08:09

being in, but that those experiences

1:08:11

were valuable for me to be an asset to

1:08:13

whatever conversation or, or kind

1:08:15

of initiative. And I hope that anyone

1:08:17

who is listening feels that they have

1:08:20

something to contribute always. That

1:08:22

they have an opportunity to learn and then contribute

1:08:24

even more that people should not

1:08:26

feel belittled or feel that they don't belong

1:08:28

in a space, that everyone has the right

1:08:30

to be somewhere and if you have a vision,

1:08:32

if you have an idea, if you have something that you really

1:08:35

want to do, that there are a lot of ways

1:08:37

and that, that first no is not, you know, The

1:08:39

end all be all that that

1:08:42

no is just another is just one

1:08:44

one person saying no and that there are other spaces

1:08:47

and even if you aren't able to get a yes

1:08:49

from someone you're able to do

1:08:52

it yourself and in whatever

1:08:54

way is possible that that doesn't mean

1:08:56

that you have to stop just because someone else is not supporting

1:08:59

you because I mean I wouldn't be an engineer

1:09:01

I wouldn't be a doctor if I believed All the

1:09:03

things that people were saying, but I knew what

1:09:05

I wanted and I knew kind of the type of person I

1:09:07

want to be. And my goal right now

1:09:09

is to be a really great Flint community

1:09:12

doctor. My goal right now is to be a really

1:09:14

great friend, sister, aunt, whatever it may

1:09:16

be. And those are just things I personally

1:09:18

hold on to. And I'm not letting other people

1:09:20

kind of take that away from me. Cause like I

1:09:22

said, feeling powerless is the worst.

1:09:25

And it just leads to so many other things.

1:09:27

But take your power back,

1:09:28

and absolutely taking it back. You

1:09:31

have. Thank you so much, Dr. Harris for joining

1:09:33

us today.

1:09:34

thank you very much. I appreciate being here.

1:09:39

Hear even more exclusive content now from

1:09:41

Dr. Harris directly by heading on over

1:09:43

to our Patreon community. Hear her discuss

1:09:45

the process of crafting her clinic's mission,

1:09:47

vision, and values, and discover how these

1:09:50

core principles evolved and continue to

1:09:52

drive her practice forward. She

1:09:54

also opens up about the power of community

1:09:56

and family support in her journey, and

1:09:58

the strategic choices she's made made for her clinic,

1:10:00

like the zero down membership offer. Plus

1:10:03

get a behind the scenes look at how Dr. Harris

1:10:05

planned a groundbreaking health summit for high

1:10:07

school students, creating an impactful legacy

1:10:09

in health education. Don't miss

1:10:11

these invaluable lessons on building a healthcare practice

1:10:14

rooted in connection and intention. Join

1:10:17

now for all this and more, including exclusive

1:10:19

full length interviews filled with updates

1:10:21

on previous guests. only at patreon.

1:10:23

com forward slash my DPC

1:10:26

story fan. Follow us on social

1:10:28

media to find out more about our next guest.

1:10:31

In the meantime, I'd greatly appreciate if you

1:10:33

could leave a review on Apple Podcasts

1:10:35

or Spotify to help others find the pod. And

1:10:37

for DPC News on the Daily, check out dpcnews.

1:10:40

com. Until next week, this is Maryal Concepcion.