0:01

Do you know what the J stands for? I've always

0:04

been it feels like it's got to be like Jeremond

0:07

Judas Judas. Is that really

0:09

what it is? Because that's no. I don't, I don't. I

0:11

have no idea what it is. I've no idea.

0:13

I guess it's John or something like that.

0:16

Chuckaboo, that's what it is. How

0:21

was your Majesty Edgar Hoover?

0:28

John? John would be told, passes

0:31

n your majesty,

0:34

your main son, Edgar Hoover, chips,

0:44

yours mans,

0:48

racist astost

0:53

money, martial stuff.

0:58

I can't tell me. Yep,

1:02

yep, yep. There it is. There

1:04

it is. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome

1:06

to another phenomenal episode

1:08

of My Mama Told Me, the podcast

1:11

where we died deep, deep into

1:13

the pockets of black conspiracy theories

1:15

and we finally worked to prove that

1:18

Boris ko Joe is the ugliest

1:21

name for the most handsome man to

1:23

ever walk this planet. His

1:25

parents knew that they had to. They

1:27

had to. Even amount they had, they couldn't

1:30

messle around and give this man a name the

1:32

something beautiful like meadow

1:35

lark. You know what I mean. You gotta give someone

1:37

that pretty a name that is

1:39

also beautiful. You give them something beautiful,

1:41

it's basically gonna cause like a wormhole

1:44

to open up and we're all gonna get sucked into

1:46

the pits of hell. It's not possible. So thank

1:48

you Mr and Mrs ko Joe

1:51

for making the sacrifice that none

1:53

of us were brave enough to make. This

1:55

is the theory I'm spreading this week. It's

1:57

pretty much true. I think it's the most true

1:59

thing I've ever said anywhere. Always,

2:02

I think, yeah, that makes sense. I'm your host,

2:04

Thankstein Kern, and I'm rambling weird today.

2:07

That's that's the energy I'm hitting you with. I

2:09

don't know. Talking's hard, and Buddy,

2:12

I shouldn't have a podcast, but I do.

2:15

You know who is a good talker who

2:18

doesn't ramble? Funny? And

2:20

and probably he is. He's got

2:22

all the words. He's a man who's

2:25

well versed in words and in both

2:27

funny and otherwise. He's he's so funny.

2:29

I've known him. I know him for a while. He's a hilarious

2:32

dude based out of New York, and he has so

2:34

much cool ship going on. He hasn't amazing.

2:36

He's on a show called Everything's

2:38

trash on Freeform that's coming out, and he

2:40

has an amazing show on AMC called can we

2:43

talk about this? So funny? You guys are gonna

2:45

love him. Please get it up for my guests. Mr Jordan's

2:47

Carlos thank you. Yeah,

2:51

all right, Helen. I feel

2:53

like I'm answering anything.

2:56

The band thanks

3:00

us, love your

3:02

roots. That other

3:04

guy that's poor

3:07

roots just this. We only know two

3:09

of them. And I said, yeah, I always feel bad

3:12

when people come out and they're like, we love the roots,

3:14

you know, with Quest Love and uh Black

3:17

Thought and the Brest.

3:21

You can stop there. You're stopping,

3:23

yo, Man, that's been a minute. I'm

3:26

proud of all that you've done. I'm

3:28

not happy for you man doing it black

3:31

Man successful. The feeling is

3:33

mutual. I'm so happy you're here.

3:35

You've been hysterical for a long time and

3:38

you came to us with what I

3:40

think is a very hysterical conspiracy

3:43

theory. It is it is one that is

3:46

it hysterical, hysterical

3:48

license or it's really funny, too

3:50

serious, dead as supers

3:54

that one of our only you know what I'm saying.

3:57

It's haunting if true, but it has it

4:00

cannot not be funny. You

4:02

said, my mama told me Jack

4:08

Hoover was black. Around

4:13

my house, we call him Jay Hoover, J

4:18

who a little rock side, But it

4:20

don't mean the same thing. Jay

4:23

Hoover. Hoover was definitely whover,

4:26

definitely had a thing against

4:28

black folks. We know that all

4:30

of the Lucas brothers do this in the black masside.

4:33

We thank him for that. But I'm a Black

4:35

History Month quiz Bowl champion. I

4:38

knew that. I knew that J. J. Hoover

4:40

was was dirty to begin with, and

4:43

gully and and and just gross disgusting.

4:47

But on I mean like he just

4:50

couldn't sleep at night thinking that black

4:53

people were happy he was that he

4:55

was that guy. No, he he had

4:58

a very h sick vendetta

5:00

against against a few groups.

5:03

I don't want to make it so that black

5:05

people are are the only ones that he

5:08

was targeting, because I think it's important that the acknowledge

5:10

he hated a lot of folds. But

5:13

boy, but boy, did he have a

5:15

special taste in his mouth. He

5:19

really wanted nigga blood, and UH

5:21

worked real hard to get it exactly.

5:24

But the thing about it was, I

5:26

mean, yes, a special taste for

5:28

it because it ran through his veins.

5:31

Yes, and so okay,

5:35

hold on, wait a minute, I'm

5:38

there to listen. Don't

5:40

let me ramble. Yeah, no, please please,

5:43

I have so many questions. Please go

5:45

ahead, man, tell me for you where

5:47

where you first became aware

5:50

of j Edgar Hoover and his alleged

5:54

black history. Just looking

5:56

at this he

6:01

looked like some of the deacons of the deacon board. I

6:05

was like, oh, okay, he got Indian

6:07

his family, you know, like, just looking at

6:09

him, he's got the ponce nez. We

6:12

all got that one cousin who's got the ponce

6:14

nez, you know what I'm saying. And so

6:17

looking at him, the slick

6:19

back hair, his skin, he was always

6:21

dark, right, he was always dark. And

6:24

I was like, let me, let me look it up. So I

6:26

said, google ja grew who were

6:29

young. He looked like

6:31

my dad, you know what I'm saying, or

6:35

at least my grandfather. I

6:38

mean, when you look at other people that chose

6:40

like he was. Okay. So the author Gore Vidal.

6:43

Gorvidal wrote books like Aaron Burr

6:45

really great author and uh public

6:47

public intellect, things like that. In the nineteen

6:50

six season early nineteen seventy. So gore

6:52

Vidal grew up with Ja

6:54

grew who Jo and he's

6:56

in d C. And he said,

7:00

Gorvidal would embellishment. He's not

7:02

one to lie. And he said that everybody

7:04

knew that the Hoovers passed for

7:06

white. Yes, everybody knew

7:09

it. Everybody knew it, and that grew up in d C.

7:11

But it's just like that was just like a rumor

7:13

out there, you know what I mean, it was hard to make

7:15

the accusation because of the power

7:17

of j Edgar Hoover. Yeah, it's

7:20

it's so funny because I I love

7:23

that you brought up the the pictures,

7:25

right that so many of his pictures he sort

7:27

of like looks oddly like

7:30

a a light skinned black person.

7:32

And one of the things that I felt in looking

7:35

at a lot of his pictures is how much he

7:37

benefited from like the black

7:39

and white era of photographs,

7:42

right that, Like, it has

7:44

to be intentional that we're not seeing color

7:46

pictures of this dude, because he's

7:48

gonna be noticeably darker than

7:50

all of these other people he's like bossing

7:52

around at these FBI tables,

7:55

you know what I mean. Colored pictures of this colored

7:57

man, you're absolutely right now, you

8:00

know, that was my first that was my first inkling.

8:03

I was like, Corvidal knew that about him, and then

8:05

there's that kind of to me. I

8:08

took that. I ran with it. I was like, I know what

8:10

it is to be like to get over one's

8:13

own internalized racism. Hm,

8:15

you know say I mean Jay gerber hooever never did. He

8:18

ated himself on a lot of levels. He was never living his truth

8:20

right, So he was closet and gay, right,

8:23

and so like he took it out of gaze

8:25

and so he took it out on blacks and like all

8:28

the people that he had a beef with, that

8:31

was who he was. So that

8:33

makes me know that like all

8:35

the more that that's that's what he was about. Man,

8:37

you know what I'm saying. So there's there's also no schools

8:40

named after Jehovah. There's none

8:42

named after him, which tells me definitely black

8:45

man, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah,

8:49

it's so funny because part of the

8:52

reason I imagine that people aren't necessarily

8:54

like eager to put his name on things is

8:56

despite the fact that he obviously was

8:59

a dick head, the black people dickheads probably

9:01

too light of a word he was. He was and

9:04

a silly billy too to the blacks in

9:07

the days. But on top of that,

9:10

he he was kind of known as

9:12

a as an asshole to everybody

9:14

else. Like it wasn't as if like everybody

9:17

was like, yo, you know what funk with is

9:20

j Edgar Hoover. You

9:23

know who are really just like hanging out

9:25

with is that motherfucker j Edgar Hoover.

9:27

He tells great jokes, I

9:30

know. I mean he got rid of like people like John Dillinger,

9:32

you know what I'm saying, gangsters, the public enemies

9:35

of the nineteen twenties and thirties, And it's like, you know what,

9:37

they were fun fucking

9:39

fun, and you know what, it was white and black want

9:41

to see him go away, but we didn't have the power at the time,

9:44

you know. I mean, it's it's not like John Dillinger

9:47

like lining up with black folks to make

9:50

Cooper go away, you

9:52

know. But but you know it's

9:55

there were many people in the race to

9:58

that that that that did not like him. But there were

10:00

many people in his cross hairs. And the

10:03

thing about it was, I think it just came from

10:05

his own lies about himself

10:07

and the bs about himself. And he

10:10

had a particular thing for Marcus Garvey

10:12

and the black show. Right, so he

10:15

went to a point like he made a name for himself

10:17

in about nineteen Come with me

10:19

now you see me just pumped the glasses right there. You

10:23

know you know what that is. You know what that

10:25

is. We're gonna go into deep, big facts, big

10:27

facts, going into the big facts. Now,

10:30

Young j H was like, Okay,

10:33

I'm here in d C. Is gonna be some got

10:35

the yak. There's gonna be some black black

10:37

history real quick. He's

10:39

trying to make a name for himself. No

10:42

problem, He's gonna make a name

10:44

for himself in d C. And

10:47

and I think he was working at the time

10:50

for you know, there wasn't like a the

10:52

FBI wasn't a thing yet, right, so that

10:55

was not a thing, right, So, but he was working

10:57

in that version of what the historic

11:00

from that so so basically he

11:02

had to make a name. And so Marcus

11:04

Garvey had kind of been on the raidar of the

11:06

government because he had the audacity, the

11:08

audacity to ship to

11:13

ship black people from one place to the other,

11:15

or black owned made products from

11:17

one place to the other. It was like he

11:20

was like, what if we go back to where we come from?

11:22

And white people were like, wait, adamn,

11:26

We're gonna have to create a branch of the government

11:28

to deal with this motherfucker because that

11:31

is not okay. He

11:34

was an unwieldy, unruly negro.

11:36

I mean, Gary Cheft

11:38

Garvey. I always loved that one.

11:41

Like he's just like he's

11:43

in the back of that car just looking.

11:45

He was like a rap video, you know what I'm saying. He's

11:47

got like this uniform on. Never went

11:49

war, never went to war, but he's got like a

11:52

general's hat on, and he knew what he was like,

11:54

you know what he's doing. You know he's so he's stirring

11:56

them white soup. He's stirring them white I'm

11:59

sure some of them like, do we have to call it black start?

12:03

He's not a star to me. So

12:07

white people got you know, they got shook,

12:09

the fragility of it all and so so

12:13

so then Hoover was like, I mean, man,

12:15

right, he went so far. So he had

12:17

I remember the first agent that he employed

12:20

because he couldn't go himself right totally?

12:22

Could he could? He totally could you've

12:26

seen Dr Daniel Hall Williams. You've

12:28

seen Dr Charles Drew. I

12:31

remember black his dry mother to be like Dr Charles

12:33

Drew Black History Month icon. I'm

12:35

like him, are you sure, doctors

12:44

we can pull showing

12:48

up the same way. Dr Janiel

12:50

will is wider than Vermont dude. But like, you know,

12:52

it's like so anyway,

12:56

he employed this one black man

12:58

who's by the way, his name was his

13:00

middle name was Worm. Yeah,

13:03

yeah, I don't know about Worm. Tell me

13:05

more about this Worm character. Nobody

13:08

came to his funeral. Fun that guy so

13:11

so he was so this Worm guy basically

13:14

was the first kind of like black FBI

13:18

agent. He infiltrated

13:20

Garves operation and

13:22

got them to you know, like basically

13:25

planted the seeds of mistrust within

13:27

the organization and then went so far

13:30

like so Hoover had him even

13:32

do things like sabotage, like throwing

13:35

pieces like a junk and metal

13:37

into into the gas tanks of the Black Star

13:39

Line ships. They wanted this nigga

13:42

to fail. I mean, that's not even Usually

13:45

it's like observe and reports, right,

13:47

that's that's like what the government's

13:49

job is to do. But they're like like Hoover

13:51

was like, that's not enough. You're

13:54

supposed to really use like time

13:56

travel rules as as

13:58

the government, you know what I mean, Like you you look

14:01

at it, but you don't funk with it. And instead

14:03

he was like, no, I'm gonna touch that almanac.

14:05

I'm gonna I'm gonna see what what I can build

14:08

from from burning down everything

14:10

that this dude is trying to build. Absolutely

14:13

so he basically got garfy

14:15

deported back to Jamaica, ruined

14:18

his ruined him and was

14:20

able to like use those closest

14:22

to him to uh sabotage

14:26

And that's what made a name. That's

14:29

the made a name for Jahoover, right I

14:32

mean? And then he like, look,

14:34

you take the values of your take on the values

14:36

of your oppressor to hope for better

14:38

treatment. You know what I'm saying, Well,

14:41

that's what I was gonna ask you, is is

14:43

And I'm just curious to hear your thoughts because

14:45

you're clearly very well versed in your boy

14:47

j Hoover. Is how much

14:50

of his behavior do

14:53

you think was like ingrained

14:55

in him from the beginning that like, as

14:58

a family they just decide did

15:00

we don't like niggas and we're gonna do everything

15:02

we can to be mean to them even

15:04

though we are them. Or was

15:06

this like, oh you got some affirmation

15:09

you gotta pat on your head from like how hard

15:11

you went at Garvy and so now

15:14

that's gonna be like your signature move, do

15:16

you know what I mean? Most people that

15:19

like because j Graver was never

15:21

elected anything, he was

15:24

a political animal in d C. So

15:26

he understood how to work things.

15:29

He understood like it's not about who

15:31

knows you, it's it's you know who you

15:33

know or whatever it is the leaders of power. He

15:35

understood how to work that. He

15:38

knew the game was not a game. But I

15:41

feel like what probably started with, like

15:43

it can't just be one thing, you know, I'm

15:45

saying, there's a lot in that in that gumbo. It's like he

15:48

probably definitely passed

15:51

or didn't pass the doll test,

15:53

you know when they give you the bad black doll and

15:56

like so like, yeah, you know it, I

15:59

don't know that's I mean, are you don't know that test?

16:01

I don't think so. Bro, you got a daughter,

16:04

right, yeah, you need to be putting

16:06

some black dolls in that crib immediately.

16:09

Oh, she can't use their fingers yet, so

16:13

it doesn't matter by the time.

16:15

By the time they are three, the messages

16:18

have already they've already got the messages that

16:20

black is bad. So it's like a test

16:22

where they present a white doll and a black

16:24

doll and then they're like, which doll

16:27

is a bad one? And then usually the person administering

16:29

the test is like, right,

16:32

this one's names pretty naughty, Hoggins,

16:37

what did you say something? Did you say

16:39

something crash SHANIQUEA. This

16:42

doll's cursing, Maybe don't pick that one.

16:47

But the worst part of the dolls test is that

16:49

the kids make the connection. They're like, okay,

16:51

so the black children take

16:53

the tests, they're like this black doll is is

16:56

bad. And then they're like, so, do you

16:58

mean you're bad? And then because

17:00

you're black, and they're like, yeah, I'm

17:03

bad. So it's like by the yeah, man,

17:07

So it's like, I think he didn't pass

17:09

the doll test and we've been paying

17:11

for it ever since. So it

17:13

was like and he had this thing about

17:16

like black people that were living their

17:18

best lives he could not stand so like Dr

17:20

King, remember he like he was

17:22

like Dr King because I mean, listen,

17:25

Martin Luther the King right

17:28

is a god and a great man. But yes

17:31

he was. He was loose with the dick and

17:33

that's you know, we know that. You know, we know that

17:36

Jay Whover used that against him, you know,

17:39

and I was like, that's why he was like king, You're

17:45

yeah. It's one of the things that probably is

17:47

going to be helpful for people to put this in context

17:50

is that Jack or Hoover worked

17:52

as sort of like the head of the

17:54

quote unquote FBI then

17:57

becoming the FBI for forty

17:59

seven years, so he spanned he

18:02

spanned some black men's lifetime,

18:04

uh to fucking

18:06

torment people, which

18:09

meant that like he really got his hands

18:11

and a lot of ship there. It wasn't

18:13

just like, oh he had a couple of big hits. He really

18:16

was a part of of sort

18:18

of like the threat for so

18:20

many generations of black and brown

18:23

people. Absolutely, so, I mean what

18:25

he did was like he just had a

18:27

special I mean, let's say he had a

18:29

heart on you know what I'm saying. He had a heart on floor. Any

18:33

black lead on the come up, and he took

18:35

them all out, even Sam Cook, like

18:38

Sam like even took out Sam Cook

18:40

so so by like he's kind

18:42

of the reason why there's a

18:44

certain disenchantment or

18:46

like a certain piece missing

18:49

for I think Black people when

18:51

it comes to like leadership, were just like they killed

18:53

a lot of leaders, you know, they did it all in like

18:55

five the tenure span, and with that, it's

18:58

just like a giant whole was

19:00

left and Jack Hooper's stupid

19:03

head is in the middle of that hole. So it's

19:05

like, yeah, I feel like he was

19:07

just like grinning, like, yeah, I didn't. I

19:09

do think it makes me think

19:12

that that so much work could be

19:14

done. Granted they've they've done horrific

19:16

things for generations, even past Jigor

19:19

Hoover, but so much work could be done

19:22

if the FBI even just took the

19:24

time to denounce some of

19:26

the actions that he took

19:28

during the time that he was sort of like their

19:31

quote unquote leader. That like if

19:33

they just came up and we're like, yo, no,

19:35

lie, he was bugging are

19:37

bad on that one? That wasn't exactly

19:39

how we run things. But instead they go, Nope,

19:42

great man, flawless figure, nothing

19:45

to talk about, and we move

19:47

forward. And it's like, oh no, man,

19:49

you can't write these like every year

19:51

the fucking the Twitter for the FBI

19:54

is like, we missed you, Martin Luther King, and it's

19:56

like you don't get to do that because you know you

19:58

won't. You won't can say

20:00

what what actually happened? Well,

20:03

of course they miss him. They

20:06

used to bug his hotels and just like

20:08

they love I mean, listen, the day

20:11

King died, he sent Coretta like

20:13

this insane tape

20:16

with all like just like like

20:18

bedroom noises of King

20:20

whatever, like that's what that's how

20:22

that nigga said. And

20:25

then right and

20:27

then before that, he said in a letter to

20:29

King saying he should kill himself that

20:32

like obviously Coretta read you

20:34

know what I'm saying. Like he

20:36

was just like I was like, what, don't you have

20:38

anything else to do? Man? Are there any

20:41

other crises in the Country's like no, the

20:43

Negro, the Negro, like the black

20:45

Messiah will come and just like he'll

20:48

take us, Hoba. We're only one in ten

20:50

of the people in the United States. But

20:52

what huh

20:56

you know for him to be sitting there, He's like, damn,

20:58

Martin, I

21:01

hope this let him finds you. Well, maybe

21:05

you should kill yourself. I don't know. Yeah,

21:08

have you ever thought about it? It

21:11

says. It starts King. It's like King, you

21:14

are an animal saving

21:17

your breakfast. You're like Jesus Christ.

21:21

I would even say again, I

21:23

have I think I have a sixth sense of humor.

21:26

There is a fun there's

21:28

a part of me that has so much fun

21:30

with antiquated racism. Like that people

21:34

felt comfortable saying at a certain point

21:36

that we've now like socialized out

21:38

that they probably so actively believe. But

21:41

like you, you don't say it, like

21:43

calling somebody an animal is so fucking

21:45

funny of being like you, you

21:49

animal, You fucking animals,

21:51

you fucking savages. And

21:54

I love it so much. And

21:57

for those reasons, I know

21:59

he wasn't. I don't know why.

22:03

And if you do all the man

22:06

you can clearly say, I mean, okay,

22:08

that's those are some trap moves. Though.

22:10

That's some trap nigger ship. When you're telling

22:12

somebody to kill themselves in a battle, Yeah,

22:15

that's some that's some nigorous ship. He behaved

22:18

in a way that was

22:20

too passionate for him not to

22:22

have personal steaks in this fight.

22:25

Absolutely that it can't be just

22:27

you acting completely for your

22:30

job. Nobody cares that much

22:32

about protecting the produce at

22:34

target. Do you know what I mean? Like you're

22:36

doing a thing that has

22:39

to be personal for you. And

22:41

so yeah, it was also above

22:43

and beyond. This is how I knew he was not

22:46

white, right, So like he when

22:48

he and like he had this thing was like in the nineteen

22:50

thirties excuse my nineteen thirties impression

22:53

voice, where he's like, hey, junior g man, today

22:56

they're gonna be a man man. He

23:00

was like, he was like, we get we get the best in the brightest,

23:02

Why the tallest, you know, the fattest, the tallest,

23:05

the best, like and they all it was just over

23:08

six ft tall. You had to be white,

23:10

over six ft tall, and and have like a high

23:12

school grad like a high school degree.

23:15

But they all look like male models. So I was

23:17

like, this guy is just doing rose ceremonies.

23:20

Yeah, he just wants he wants

23:22

boys to look at you know, he's just collecting

23:25

buff boys to be his his special

23:27

team of buff boys. That which

23:30

is fine, Which is fine as

23:32

long as you're honest about

23:34

what you're doing. He wasn't, you know, Like

23:37

yeah, so like you just saying you just saying

23:39

I'm collecting buff boys. I enjoy

23:42

buff boys and also, if you enjoy killing

23:44

black leaders, you and you can

23:46

be a part of that and they'll be like, yeah, it's

23:50

it's not like people are gonna be like what the funk. They'll

23:52

be like, yeah, that sounds pretty

23:54

cool to me. I'll be a buff boy, yo, man,

23:56

I'm gonna tell you something. I actually got to

23:58

interview a guy that worked

24:01

side by side of Jacker Hoover, whoa

24:04

yeah yeah yeah. So like I

24:06

was like, was he ever late? And he was

24:09

like, that's strange. He was five to

24:11

ten minutes late sometimes

24:13

at work. Was see black

24:23

already thought that that was gonna go somewhere like super

24:25

insightful and indeed, nope,

24:28

black black. He

24:33

was like, no, Hoover was very good to his black

24:35

employees. He shook his hand,

24:37

the hand of his driver, and it's

24:40

made. And I was like, my man, my man,

24:43

my man. Ah yeah

24:45

yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't know what good is. And

24:48

that's that's the different thing that we got

24:50

to work out. Yeah, but I'm

24:52

convinced, bro, I'm convinced. I'm

24:54

just saying I can't be all right, Well, this is this

24:57

is some heavy ship. You've got some girl insight.

24:59

We're gonna say a break. We'll be back with more, Jordan Carlos

25:02

and more. My mama told me we

25:13

are that passes

25:18

into the man shoots it and boom goes

25:20

to dynamite. We're back, Carlos.

25:24

We're still talking about j Edgar Hoover

25:27

and and the possibility, the real

25:29

possibility that he was a black man,

25:32

a black man who hated being a black man

25:34

and and thus punished other

25:36

black man, a real, a real six

25:39

cycle happening, and that Fuco said,

25:45

Okay, let's jump into some of this research

25:48

because and you've already covered a

25:50

fair amount of it is and you've hit a lot

25:52

of the important points. But Jagger Hoover,

25:55

he's the head of the FBI for forty seven years.

25:57

He's best known for his efforts to

25:59

number one and take down black people, Number two

26:02

take down the Gaze, and number

26:04

three takedown communists,

26:06

and he often sort of leveraged

26:09

the three of them against each other as

26:11

a way of conflating and capitalizing

26:15

on whatever he wanted from that

26:18

group. Amongst

26:20

his greatest hits of ship

26:22

that he did Marcus Garvey's

26:24

Black Star line, which he was able to

26:26

sabotage. He also famously launched

26:29

Cointel pro uh, the FBI's

26:32

counter intelligence program where leaders

26:34

of the civil rights groups such as the Black Panther

26:36

Party were gunned down with FBI involvement,

26:39

and most famously and you hit this, he

26:41

was the person who greenlit the raids and the ultimate

26:44

assassination of Martin Luther

26:46

King Jr. Yeah. Yeah,

26:49

So a lot of classics under

26:51

his belt. You know, great, great, great

26:53

guy always

26:56

invited to the cook out. I feel

26:59

like, yeah, man, And he also we

27:01

don't talk about brother Malcolm, but he also

27:04

like so Bumpy Smalls was protecting

27:06

Malcolm in the final days after like Malcolm

27:08

wild out and said, like, you know, Elijah,

27:10

remember when he was on TV, said Elijah Mohammed,

27:14

babies different women, I

27:17

love, I love your soldier

27:20

boy interpretation. Elijah

27:26

mommed, well,

27:30

I know that the FBI was like they had

27:32

an FBI informant in his protection,

27:35

so they'd actually they'd actually infiltrateed

27:37

so like I mean, like, but they were mad

27:39

at the guy that had infiltrated because he

27:42

tried to save Malcolm's

27:44

life after he was shot Mountain.

27:46

They were like, what are you doing? What

27:48

are you doing? Shame? Say

27:51

what you do? You suck to win out

27:54

of him. Those chess

27:56

compressions gonna stay in this man, Are

27:58

you crazy?

28:02

Any one of those forty bullets we pumped

28:04

in him might have popped out and he could

28:06

have kept living. Are

28:08

you fucking psychopathic? He couldn't have helped

28:11

him. You you killed him good, You

28:13

killed him, real good, real

28:15

good. But yeah, man, I mean, I just didn't

28:18

want that hit not not to

28:20

go. Uh notice, I

28:22

think I think that's totally fair. You're

28:24

right to have brought it up. And and I will

28:26

say that despite all of that, j

28:29

Edgar Hoover's greatest scandal was

28:32

not so much as racist and at least according

28:34

to white history, but it was actually,

28:36

as you mentioned, his closeted homosexuality

28:40

and cross dressing, that those were

28:42

the things that were sort of like most

28:45

famously associated with him. And

28:47

I have to assume that some of

28:49

the I don't even know if it's the correct

28:51

term anymore, but the quote unquote cross

28:53

dressing may not have even been

28:56

a thing that they could as much prove, but a thing

28:59

that they keep us him up because of

29:01

his closeted background

29:03

and just people fucking with his his

29:06

name as it were, Well, yeah,

29:08

absolutely, I mean they want to. I mean

29:10

it's more or less about like homophobia

29:14

and and leveraging homophobia

29:17

at at Jagger Hoover's legacy. But

29:19

in the first place, I mean if he was,

29:22

if he was queer, which it looks

29:24

like he was, then you know, because

29:26

he lived with his driver, Clif Tolson,

29:28

and CLIs Toulsen was the one that like he left

29:30

everything his estate to him. And what

29:33

I think it points out is that to be

29:35

gay at the time was to be hunted,

29:38

right and like, but

29:41

he did know he could have done

29:44

so much for people like himself,

29:47

but instead it was like, listen,

29:49

we're gonna be like it's like equality

29:51

for me, but not for anybody else,

29:54

you know, yes, yes,

29:56

And so in these kind of lavender scares of the

29:58

nineteen fifties where they purged,

30:01

you know, purge government of this

30:03

threat that that basically what it

30:06

was was the thought was that queer people could

30:08

be leveraged by communists

30:11

because of their their sexual identity,

30:13

and so that they were, they would they would be compromised,

30:16

right, so they would be compromised. And whoever

30:18

thought that about gays, what he thought about

30:21

black people was they also could

30:23

be easily compromised because they worked too smart in the

30:26

head. So

30:29

that's why people like people like Paul Robeson

30:31

or W. E. B. Two boys like who were

30:33

actually communists, like he, he felt

30:36

that they were. He almost pitied

30:39

black people because he thought they could have no original

30:41

thought on their own. But they were easily swayed.

30:44

And we see it today where it's like

30:46

you'll you'll see like, oh, like BLM

30:49

is just a Marxist organization.

30:51

They're they're easily swayed by the Marxist people

30:54

are like, nah, you

30:56

know a lot of folks in America don't

30:58

even know what the fund Marx

31:00

is. You know what I'm saying, We're just trying

31:02

to not get shot nigger. When we go to the story,

31:06

how I'm not being swayed, I'm just asking

31:09

you not to kill me. I

31:12

think you're you're mixing those two. But yeah,

31:15

lengthen I'm gonna tell you something wild today

31:17

like that. That's that's that's the insanity

31:19

of the police state. Right. So, like back in the

31:21

day violence, I mean, like in

31:23

the nineteenth century all the way up to the early

31:26

nineteen eighties, like there was kind of more like white

31:28

mob violence. You know what I'm saying. So it's like worried

31:30

about being in a neighborhood and a white mob would get you. Now

31:33

now that it's been we've we've taken

31:35

the time to organize that and that's just the police's

31:37

business. So like I remember this

31:40

morning, I was walking my dog and

31:42

uh, this is crazy. This dude

31:45

came through. And I live in a nice neighborhood.

31:47

So like, so I was offended,

31:49

but this guy came It's

31:53

it's the it's the time of the craziest. So he came through.

31:55

He had a spear like something a gladiator

31:57

would have. It was a three spear, yeah,

31:59

with a double edged spear. And

32:01

I was like, good morning, haven't had my coffee. And

32:04

my man is just like kind of walking hard,

32:07

trying to break into cars. And

32:09

I'm with a spear. Well

32:11

he's got the spear, but he's trying cars. He's just

32:13

trying. The spear is just his

32:16

spear that he carries. His hands are

32:18

the ones that are Okay, I got you. So

32:21

I'm like with my dog and I'm like, you know, I'm

32:23

having a little New York man, and I'm like should I call this in absolutely

32:26

so, so like I call the cops.

32:28

I'm literally describing myself.

32:32

So then we so

32:34

I had to hang out in the dog park. Well

32:38

they looked for this motherfucker because

32:41

I'm literally I'm like, yeah, okay, So he

32:44

had black hoodieo on. You know what I'm saying, black

32:47

jacket. Uh, he had Adda's

32:49

pants on and some like classic

32:51

Jordan's I'm like, ship Nick, I'm wearing the

32:54

same thing. I love the

32:56

idea that they that you had to go as

32:58

far out of your way as possible, do not

33:01

accidentally call this man a spirit chucker,

33:04

and that that to me speaks

33:10

heroics. Thank you, thank

33:12

you. I was it was a little trauma in the morning before

33:14

I had my coffee. But I was like, oh my

33:17

god, oh my god. But I realized,

33:19

you know, I can't call the cops. I

33:22

might as well just getting the cruiser myself. So

33:25

right anyway,

33:27

that I don't know where I was going with that story, well,

33:32

but is wild. I do

33:35

think that that some of what

33:37

j Edgar Hoover did is

33:40

not often sort of like communicated,

33:42

in that he helped to create a

33:44

culture that's bigger than the actual

33:47

like choices that he made. Right

33:49

that like so much of our our

33:52

understanding of the current police

33:54

state. It's the ship he

33:56

helped cook up in his

33:59

early efforts to sort of like sabotage,

34:02

to manage to play these fucking

34:04

weird mind games with our

34:06

leaders. And so it isn't just limited

34:09

to like, oh, he killed a dude and he was

34:11

mean to these other ones. It's truly like now,

34:13

he created the system that fox

34:16

with us today. He absolutely

34:19

and he created a system good guys, bad guys,

34:21

right, because in the nineteen thirties, our heroes were

34:23

like Bonnie and Clyde, John

34:26

Dillager, al Capone,

34:29

Right, these were anti heroes because people were on

34:31

their back in the Great Depression. But

34:34

he, you know, he busted all these people,

34:36

and he wanted people to feel that there was

34:39

a fight against darkness, was light

34:41

and dark, and like that's

34:45

I think been the kind

34:47

of like that's been a constant theme throughout

34:50

our history up up until this point. You

34:52

know, it's like it's those that are yeah,

34:54

those that are on one side of the gun or the other. That's

34:57

totally fair. And you talked a little bit about like

34:59

the you obviously Gore Fidal talks

35:01

a ton about how he grew up around

35:03

the family, the Hoover family, and

35:06

everybody understood them to be quote unquote

35:08

mulatto, which was obviously the term

35:10

that they used at the time. Similarly,

35:13

author Anthony Samuels he

35:15

has similar claims from families

35:17

on the East Coast who all believed Edgar

35:19

had black roots and even referred

35:22

to him as soul brother. Soul

35:24

Brother was apparently JEdgar Hoover's

35:26

nickname, I

35:30

assume, not affectionately. I don't like

35:33

brother, you got it. It was more like a

35:36

soul brother. And he'd get angry and

35:38

storm off. Absolutely, they'd be like,

35:40

so, brother, take the service. Interests my

35:45

shoes, I don't show

35:47

you. Why

35:50

did they talk like that? But

35:53

there was even one relative

35:55

I've ever seen this documentary about Jacob and

35:57

it was like one black relative that

36:00

was like this woman that says she was related

36:02

to JACKO. Hoover, that said she wrote a book about

36:04

it, and she said, we have

36:06

a very powerful cousin. Yeah.

36:09

D c. Millie McGhee, yeah

36:12

mcge Llie McGee claims

36:14

she she grew up in Mississippi, and

36:16

she said in the late nineteen fifties, that's a young

36:19

girl growing up in rural McComb, Mississippi.

36:21

A story had been passed down through several

36:24

generations that the land that they lived on was

36:26

owned by the Hoover family and that their

36:28

grandfather said that they that Edgar

36:30

was his second cousin and was passing

36:33

for white, and yeah, he was this powerful

36:36

cousin that they had, but they were

36:38

so afraid to talk about it because

36:41

he would potentially seek vengeance and

36:43

kill them. That that they lived

36:45

under threat of violence because of

36:47

the possibility of airing out that he

36:50

is a black man. See, that wouldn't

36:52

be me. I come up to the scrib In DC, like,

36:56

what's up? Cause yo at

36:59

start down the Oh

37:02

my god, it's

37:07

me million all

37:09

the way from Mississippi. Brother. Brother,

37:13

don't act like you don't know me. Now,

37:16

don't act like you don't know me. Don't

37:18

act like you don't know because it's

37:22

so funny. But I just feel that

37:24

way, man, because so many people were

37:26

like that. Like if you think about like roy Cohne, who's

37:28

who was a famous lawyer. They

37:31

worked with Senator McCarthy and

37:33

the McCarthy is um right, So

37:35

he roy Cone sent Judith

37:38

and at the Rosenberg to the gas chamber for treason

37:42

yes, right, so at the time, like he

37:44

did that, but like he also exposed

37:47

people during the Communist scare and the Lavender

37:49

Scare. He was big in the lavender scare. But Roy Cohen

37:52

himself was gay, So he ruined

37:54

the lives of millions of Americans

37:57

who were in like civil service jobs, knowing

38:00

full well he was gay, right,

38:03

right, But he's willing to He's in that

38:05

weird zone where it's like, I

38:07

mean, and I hate to slip down this whole, but a lot

38:09

of people that like you, you know, like in

38:12

slavery, like you you give up

38:14

your humanity and hopes of better

38:16

like the kind of like the house negro thing, you

38:18

give up your humanity and hopes of better treatment.

38:21

Oh you sick, No, we all sick, boss like

38:24

and that kind of thing. That kind of thing. I think

38:26

that makes perfect sense. And I think

38:28

in a in a very you

38:30

know, if we really wanted to explore this

38:32

in terms of what it actually means, it

38:35

just shows the way that white supremacism

38:38

sort of like seeps into every

38:40

facet of American

38:43

culture and experience, right that, like I

38:46

think that hurting my own

38:49

kind will be my salvation.

38:51

That doesn't make me a hero,

38:53

but it definitely makes it a more complicated,

38:56

I guess villain than we would want

38:59

it to be. This is just this person waking

39:01

up with like deep seated

39:03

hatred in their heart. It truly is them

39:05

thinking, Okay, if this means

39:08

my survival, I will learn to hate

39:10

the people who move and look like I

39:12

do. Absolutely, and that's why I vote

39:15

Republican there, you know, to save

39:17

me, save

39:20

me, you know, That's

39:22

what Candaswe is my best friends. I

39:33

always feel like because I went to private school and

39:35

I'm just making up for lost time. I'm now on a kind

39:37

of like a rehabilitation program, just like trusting

39:39

my own people, loving my own people, love myself. That's

39:42

usually what it is. Because I went KME through twelve. Then I went

39:44

to private college, and then I was like I

39:46

was just trying to get like jobs, like kind

39:49

of like trying to be like the token

39:51

this and that on the show, you know what I'm saying. And

39:53

then I was like, because I was actually what

39:55

happened was I had deep seated racism, and

39:58

so when I gave that up, so are working

40:00

with people like Larry one more and everything like that, everything

40:03

changed in my life you know, like, yeah, I

40:05

still got a white wife. But you know what I'm saying,

40:09

Hey, we can't all be perfect, you know perfect.

40:12

I mean that that came before. You know what I'm

40:16

but my kids are Dan brown, you know, like it's

40:18

it's it's good. I'm

40:20

doing what I can. Man. I think you

40:23

talked a little bit about sort of the Republicans

40:26

and it it reminds me that I read an article

40:28

that talked about, you know, jed Ger Hoover has

40:31

his own film. Leo DiCaprio

40:33

plays Jedger Hoover in the

40:35

Clint Eastwood portrayal of him, and

40:37

one of the things that the article talked about is

40:40

that it delves heavily this film

40:42

into his closeted homosexuality,

40:45

but conveniently skips over his

40:47

race. And one of the things that came to mind

40:50

as they they sort of addressed that

40:53

is how it's probably a lot easier

40:55

still even today, for white

40:58

people to see him as saying but

41:00

complex if he's closeted,

41:03

but much more challenging for them to have

41:05

that same sort of sense of his

41:07

sanity and reasoning if

41:09

he is a a person struggling

41:11

with his racial identity. M

41:15

because I don't think people, not a lot of white people understand

41:17

that, you know what I'm saying, because they don't, you know, as they in

41:19

their own words, they don't have a culture. So look,

41:22

you know, like they might not understand

41:24

what it's like to like they're like black

41:26

people haven't fine in this country, but they would never

41:29

change places with them. And so yeah,

41:31

so the thought is that you

41:34

know, Hoover was like suffering

41:36

from that, you know, like probably because

41:38

he was a man of secrets too. If

41:41

your whole life is just like secrets and you got

41:43

shit on everybody, he has shot JFK. He

41:45

knew about like l b J's,

41:48

b J's, you know, everybody,

41:53

everybody, then you don't trust anybody, sure

41:55

as hell, don't trust yourself. And it's

41:58

like I think that kind of

42:01

toxic cocktail, you know, like

42:03

there's no way he would have ever come out as someone

42:05

like a man of color like been you

42:08

know, like really lived his truth and would present

42:10

it to his dying day that he was white and trusted

42:13

that he knew,

42:16

he knew his demo in his audience, He

42:18

knew that his legacy would be like

42:20

if anything okay, then they'll probably say I'm

42:23

you know, gay for for

42:25

Clive Toulson, and they won't say anything

42:27

else about me being black because people can't handle

42:29

that ship. You know. Yeah, I think that's

42:32

exactly right. He truly was like, and

42:34

I think we continue to we the

42:37

royal we, the white devil continues

42:39

to sort of pick and choose

42:41

what is conveniently okay for

42:44

us to discover about people and not. And

42:46

it reminds me. We did a mini episode

42:49

about all of the various US

42:51

presidents who have been accused

42:54

and are proven to have come Yeah,

42:58

it makes it you nigger, But

43:04

they've been they've been sort of like, uh,

43:07

they've they've been aired out as as

43:09

black and or brown people or

43:12

secretly having black brown lineage.

43:14

And they're six of them outside obviously

43:16

of Obama, who you know is the first one

43:19

who came forward and said it. But there's

43:21

Thomas Jefferson, There's Abraham Lincoln,

43:23

apparently, Calvin Coolidge, Warren

43:26

Harding, Dwight Alas Eisenhower in my

43:28

personal favorite, Andrew Jackson

43:31

apparently comes definitely.

43:34

But that's it's it's that right

43:37

where it's like you have all of these people

43:39

who his last name was Jackson, like

43:44

Samuel l like Samuel,

43:46

you know, come on now, just saying

43:49

you want to see I want to see a portrait

43:51

of his granddaddy. You know. But that's

43:54

the thing, right, is that, like, truly, I think

43:56

it was that his grandfather was

43:58

a black man and like and they

44:01

could not deal with that, and

44:04

they refused to deal with that to this day.

44:06

And how healing might that

44:08

be for a lot of generations

44:10

to know that that Andrew Jackson,

44:12

who spent his entire career doing

44:15

horrible, malicious things to

44:17

Native Americans and black people and all kinds

44:19

of people in this country, was doing it

44:21

out of a type of self hatred and

44:24

not just like an empowered

44:26

position as a white man doing

44:29

white man ship in front of all his other

44:31

white friends. Right, he went extra

44:34

sauce with it. So that's what I'm saying. It's like, when

44:36

you go extra sauce, there's there's a chance

44:38

that you just might be what

44:41

you hate. So

44:45

you're saying, when I put extra a

44:47

one sauce on misteak, I might be a one. Absolutely,

44:52

it's gonna hit you right here right

44:54

here. You wander that extra guak you

44:58

got. I

45:02

love this, Jordan's this is great this is this

45:04

is a great conversation. We I think we nailed

45:06

it. I think we did all the things. Could you tell

45:09

that you've almost finished your your drink,

45:11

which is very exciting. Oh, we can

45:14

always get more. Now, you

45:16

don't have to get more, not on my account. Now, if you want

45:18

to get drunk while your kids are sleeping, that's

45:20

a personal choice. Don't make it my defication.

45:23

I mean, I'm a great dad. Never while they're awake,

45:26

you know what, I'm sorry, Like, just yeah, they

45:29

just wait till their sleep, then you go in their room

45:31

and yeah, that's

45:38

a good dad ship. You know me too well,

45:40

sir. Could you tell the people at

45:42

home where they can find you and what you

45:45

have going on? Absolutely, you can find

45:47

me at Jordan carloson Twitter. You can find me the

45:49

realer Jordan Carlos on Instagram,

45:52

not like those fake ones. You know what I'm saying. So those

45:55

are great. Also, please once once

45:57

again, my show premiers in July,

46:00

and that's that's Everything's trash. It'll be

46:02

on free Form and Hulu. Really

46:04

excited about that, and then you can catch me on

46:07

AMC Plus. Can we talk about

46:09

this which is also in the sun. That's channel really

46:11

excited about that and LANs you gotta come on and be my guest

46:13

on that, man, I would love that. That sounds

46:15

amazing. So yeah, please go check out

46:17

all of that stuff for Jordan's and follow

46:20

him, and as always, you can follow me at lankson

46:22

Kerman and please subscribe to all the

46:24

bullshit that you're supposed to do the

46:26

podcast so that we get people

46:28

to hear about this motherfucker. And I'm not just

46:30

speaking into a void. Huh. That wouldn't

46:33

that be nice if we can make this not avoid

46:35

for everybody's experience. I'm

46:39

sure it's not. Man. Listen, you're beloved.

46:42

People love you. Man. I saw

46:44

you have sex

46:46

with that lady on I

46:51

thought you have sex with that lady. You're doing fine

46:55

well man, we

46:57

didn't this. This was a fun one

47:00

by bitch because

47:04

of the brons my

47:07

crop chips in your hands, Uncola

47:11

bears are racist. They

47:15

also player olsing the money

47:18

rsions and many turney stuff. I

47:21

can't tell me noth