0:33

Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast.

0:33

So happy you are here. My goal

0:38

with this channel is to bring

0:38

inspirational speakers to the

0:42

mic in the field of yoga,

0:42

massage bodywork and beyond.

0:48

Follow us @nativeyoga and check

0:48

us out at nativeyogacenter.com

0:56

All right, let's begin Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast.

1:04

My name is Todd McLaughlin. And

1:08

today I'm so excited to bring to

1:08

the podcast Benjamin Sears.

1:12

Benjamin is a very solid and

1:12

strong yoga practitioner who I

1:16

think you're gonna love hearing

1:16

his insights. I thoroughly

1:19

enjoyed this conversation. I

1:19

can't wait for you to hear this

1:23

all the way through. Go ahead

1:23

and find Benjamin on his website

1:27

www.benjaminsears.life,

1:27

definitely go follow him on

1:31

Instagram. If you're on that

1:31

app, @benjamin.sears. For

1:34

YouTube lovers, this episode, if

1:34

you're listening just on audio,

1:38

go ahead and go over to YouTube

1:38

on Native Yoga Center, you can

1:42

find this episode and watch

1:42

Benjamin. See how he moves,

1:46

speaks and sounds. You're gonna

1:46

love it. His handle on YouTube

1:50

is at @benjaminsears. And you

1:50

know what you just got to you

1:53

got to just get into listening

1:53

to some of the technical ideas

1:57

and understanding of movement

1:57

Asana, breath. Ways to approach

2:01

the practice. Ways to back off.

2:01

How to know when to approach.

2:05

When to back off. Some of the

2:05

insights that he shares comes

2:09

from years and years of practice

2:09

and love for yoga and putting

2:13

himself into the ring with so

2:13

many different movement

2:16

specialists. So man, I really

2:16

enjoyed this. Thank you,

2:20

Benjamin. It really was a

2:20

pleasure. And I hope to host you

2:23

here at Native Yoga Center. And

2:23

for those of you listening can

2:27

come in practice with him here.

2:27

Give us some feedback. Send us a

2:31

note, let us know what you

2:31

think. All right, let's go ahead

2:35

and begin. So happy to have the

2:35

opportunity to meet and speak

2:39

with Benjamin Sears and

2:39

Benjamin. Thank you so much for

2:42

joining me today here on on my podcast.

2:46

It's a pleasure. Thanks for

2:46

inviting me. I think, you know,

2:49

maybe you can send me some of

2:49

that Florida warm. Because the

2:54

reason I was doing it's late is

2:54

it's minus about 30 here in

2:57

Montana right now. Oh, yeah. I

2:57

had a little issue with the with

3:02

the minor issue with the boiler

3:02

just like a setting that had the

3:05

switch. So I was running around

3:05

trying to my mom's here

3:09

visiting. I was trying to make

3:09

sure my 83 year old mom doesn't

3:12

freeze. Yeah, good idea. I watched some

3:13

weather this morning. And I saw

3:16

there they were saying things

3:16

like, you know, 30 to 50 below,

3:20

like way up in the northern

3:20

states. And I just I don't know

3:23

what pretty real 50 below what

3:23

that feels like. I've never been

3:26

in that kind of feels like don't go

3:26

outside. Yeah,

3:28

don't even chance it. Could you

3:28

get it? Could you frostbite,

3:31

like how long would it take and

3:31

that kind of weather like,

3:34

you know, I don't know the

3:34

technical details, but I know

3:37

that it's not a pleasant

3:37

sensation. I mean, you know,

3:40

like, as cold as it gets. I'll

3:40

still like go outside for like

3:44

maybe a little walk or walk over

3:44

to the garage or you know, check

3:47

the solar panel heating system

3:47

and make sure that's working.

3:50

But there was a one thing I

3:50

didn't do this morning that I

3:54

should have maybe done is there.

3:54

I have solar panels over the

3:57

detached garage and I could have

3:57

gone out there and clean them

4:00

off. But it involves like a

4:00

ladder and a brush.

4:06

Yeah, well, I'll definitely try

4:06

to share some some Florida

4:10

sunshine with ya. Appreciate

4:10

that. I'm excited to speak with

4:14

you. You've been at the yoga

4:14

you've been practicing yoga for

4:17

years now. And I really have

4:17

been enjoying looking at

4:21

checking out the information you

4:21

have on your Instagram page,

4:24

your YouTube channel, and your

4:24

website of which all those links

4:28

are below people can click and

4:28

follow you and see what you're

4:30

up to. But can you give me some

4:30

insight into what inspired you

4:36

to find yoga and or what was

4:36

your introduction to yoga?

4:41

So yeah, it's interesting. I was thinking

4:43

about this before we talked

4:45

because I for so many years did

4:45

these like long lectures when I

4:49

would travel and do workshops

4:49

and part of it would be like my

4:51

background and history and I

4:51

really liked sort of

4:55

veered away from that and the

4:55

workshops are all much more

4:58

condensed now and whatnot. Then

4:58

I was like guys probably gonna

5:00

ask me about my, my history and

5:00

yoga. So I should remember how

5:03

it all started. So yeah, so, I

5:03

mean, we can track way back to

5:09

kind of like high school years.

5:09

At that point, I was just that

5:12

kid who was interested in

5:12

esoteric ideas, you know, like

5:16

reading Siddhartha, because I

5:16

was curious or like, you know,

5:21

that kind of stuff, doing like,

5:21

meditations that I invented on

5:26

like Jewish holidays, you know,

5:26

my family was like, it's sort of

5:30

barely religious, Jewish. So

5:30

sometimes we would observe the

5:33

holidays. And, you know, I found

5:33

myself doing like, meditations

5:39

by mistake. And I ski race when

5:39

I was when I was a kid. And I

5:43

think this is probably my first

5:43

experience of like, conscious

5:46

meditation where I would, on the

5:46

chairlift on the way up, I

5:51

remember being quite anxious and

5:51

also cold. And I started doing

5:56

this thing where I would

5:56

visualize a candle flame. At my

5:59

third eye, I didn't know what a

5:59

third eye was, or any of that

6:02

kind of thing, right. And I just

6:02

was like, doing it on the on the

6:06

chairlift, and it mellowed me

6:06

out, and made me feel good. And

6:11

then, you know, like, fast

6:11

forward, what must have been 20

6:16

plus years, and I'm teaching

6:16

Trataka meditation to my teacher

6:20

trainees, as the, you know, end

6:20

of the day thing, because I

6:24

think it's a really great tool

6:24

for unwinding, and tends to make

6:30

people sleeping, like in a good

6:30

way. So yeah, so that was sort

6:34

of like, those were like little

6:34

embers maybe of motivation for

6:37

something that I didn't know

6:37

what it was that I was looking

6:39

for. And then, when I was, you

6:39

know, sort of college age, I'd

6:44

always been really into sports,

6:44

and I got into weightlifting,

6:46

and weight training, you know,

6:46

to support those endeavors. And

6:50

I have this congenital issue in

6:50

my lower back, called spinal

6:54

listhesis, where my my, like

6:54

lower backs kind of jam forward

6:58

over my pelvis. So it just makes

6:58

it really easy to have back

7:02

issues. There's a lot of people

7:02

that live with Spondylus thesis

7:05

and are fine and like, never

7:05

even uncovered. But I think it

7:09

was a combination of sports I

7:09

was doing in the way that I was

7:12

training, I don't, I am actually

7:12

a proponent of weight training.

7:15

But the way that I was weight

7:15

training at that time, was not

7:19

productive for my frame. And it

7:19

was just putting, I think, more

7:22

and more pressure on that one

7:22

inch point. And so you know, I'm

7:26

in college, and I look fit and

7:26

ripped and all that stuff. But I

7:29

was just, I was in pain a lot.

7:29

And then I got in a car

7:33

accident. And then from that

7:33

point, it was just like, I

7:36

anytime I tried to do anything,

7:36

my back would go, quote,

7:38

unquote, out, and I would just

7:38

be like, useless. And it was a

7:42

big irony, because here I am,

7:42

you know, maybe 21 years old,

7:47

and, you know, 10, pack abs and

7:47

all that stuff, but just

7:52

unfunctional completely. And so

7:52

that was really what you know, I

7:56

certain doctors were

7:56

considering, like a certain like

8:00

a disc surgery and, and then

8:00

other end, you know, enough

8:03

people told me were like, You

8:03

got to try yoga. And that was

8:07

what pushed me into yoga just

8:07

started sort of like sampling

8:11

different things. I happened to

8:11

have a friend of a friend who

8:13

was older than I was who ran a

8:13

small studio in Los Angeles

8:17

where I was living at the time.

8:17

That was the they taught

8:21

Kundalini Yoga and Pilates was

8:21

like a cool mix. And I started

8:26

working with him. And then I

8:26

just like was looking on the

8:30

internet and I one day showed up

8:30

to hot yoga class at the Bikram

8:35

yoga College of India, which was

8:35

like this kind of creepy looking

8:38

place off the 10 freeway that I

8:38

had driven by, like 100 times be

8:42

like, that looks weird. I've

8:42

never been in there, you know.

8:44

And then I go in there and I'm

8:44

in like sweatpants and a hoodie

8:48

and, you know, thinking of going

8:48

to yoga and or whatever, you

8:51

know, and then I just and then

8:51

that really, that did something

8:56

for me like the Kundalini

8:56

practices were great. And that I

8:59

was doing because I was going to

8:59

Kundalini Yoga West in LA, they

9:03

just weren't blunt enough of a

9:03

sort of object or, you know,

9:08

heavy mallet for the back stuff

9:08

that I was dealing with at that

9:12

time. Maybe if I was more

9:12

patient, like sometimes I wonder

9:15

if I had just stuck with that,

9:15

like, would I have just ended up

9:19

fixed anyway and just on a

9:19

slightly different path, you

9:22

know, so that was how it

9:22

happened, you know, and then I

9:27

got really into over took a

9:27

little while but I got really

9:30

into that hot yoga practice. It

9:30

really helped my back and my

9:32

knees initially, we can talk

9:32

more about what happened later.

9:37

And then I you know, as I was

9:37

getting really deep into the

9:41

practice for those physical

9:41

reasons, I was also noticing

9:45

some mental shifts, you know,

9:45

towards more consciousness of my

9:50

behavior and inner monologues

9:50

and and then some really tragic

9:56

should happen and it at that

9:56

point it was like okay, I need

10:00

yoga to feel okay. That's how it happened. Epic

10:04

answer I have so many questions

10:07

off of what you just said. And

10:07

I'm so thankful to have this

10:12

chance to speak with you because

10:12

I just this last year gained

10:17

record or gained insight into

10:17

that I have Spondylus thesis as

10:22

well. And so just to hear, I

10:22

can't wait. I just have so many

10:27

questions for you about your

10:27

journey with this because, man,

10:31

like you said, the back pain and

10:31

it's so intense. And then. Yeah,

10:37

and so I've been relearning

10:37

everything based off of this

10:42

information now. So there's a

10:42

lot there. My second avenue I

10:46

got asked you right away,

10:46

though, was the Bikram studio

10:48

that you went to the one on La

10:48

Cienega Boulevard, or was Yeah,

10:51

yeah. Big blue sign. And yeah.

10:51

Yeah, I

10:55

did teacher training with Bikram

10:55

in 2001. At that studio, and

10:59

that was amazing. So I was a couple years

10:59

after you I was in 2006. Gotcha.

11:04

namespace for the teacher training. Yeah, yeah, that was so intense,

11:05

right. I mean, I have I have so

11:09

many questions for you there as

11:09

well. And

11:12

yeah, it's like another. Like,

11:12

it's like a parallel universe.

11:15

We briefly entered it, as you

11:15

know, in those days. Well,

11:18

actually, I have a great question for you. I

11:18

have a question for you. Right.

11:21

Great question. I have a

11:21

question for you. So when I was

11:25

doing Bikram with back then and

11:25

I remember, you know, we'd be in

11:27

the room we being candle, candle

11:27

pose, and there's three 300

11:31

people in the room hotter and

11:31

hotter than I don't even know if

11:37

we could describe how hot it for

11:37

people understand like how

11:42

incredibly hot it was. But um,

11:42

and then Bikram go and push and

11:45

push and push and push and push

11:45

and push and push some camel and

11:48

I'm pushing my hips forward. And

11:48

then that was even then back in

11:52

2001, I'd come out and be like,

11:52

Oh, my back, like, what did I do

11:56

to my back, and I was completely

11:56

unaware. And I don't even know

12:00

when my Spondylus thesis

12:00

happened. I had a really bad

12:03

fall when I was a kid out of a

12:03

rope swing 20 feet down into two

12:06

inches of water on my back. So

12:06

that probably could have been or

12:10

maybe I was born with some sort

12:10

of genetic thing. I don't know.

12:12

But I wasn't until like, you

12:12

know, now 20 something years

12:17

later, where I've got so bad

12:17

that now I'm realizing wow, is

12:21

backbending really good for me.

12:21

So that's where I have to ask

12:23

you right away. What has been

12:23

your journey with back bending

12:27

based on the fact that if that l

12:27

five or four is pushed forward,

12:30

every time we back then then our

12:30

spine is process potentially is

12:34

compressing the, you know, the

12:34

spinal cord? What has been your

12:39

experience really excessively? Yeah, I mean, I think that you

12:40

know, everything at the answer

12:44

to every such question is

12:44

contextual, you know, and this

12:47

is why I think that, you know,

12:47

Bikram yoga, or whatever it's

12:52

called now is a wonderful

12:52

beginner's practice. And some

12:56

people will understand that, and

12:56

understand that I'm

13:00

complementing the practice, and

13:00

some people will feel insulted.

13:03

And they'll have to reconcile

13:03

that themselves. What I mean by

13:07

that is, it's very broad

13:07

strokes. The instructions are

13:10

very general, they're geared

13:10

towards people that have limited

13:14

awareness of their bodies and

13:14

are just kind of getting moving.

13:17

And, you know, I think that

13:17

that's, that's, could you Sorry,

13:25

could you hold one second?

13:25

There's just a noise to my side.

13:28

Stop. No worries. Okay. It's

13:28

just like, totally was my last

13:36

my focus? How can I? So good

13:36

play? Yeah. So okay. So the

13:42

practice is one of the reasons

13:42

it's impactful is because it is

13:45

so blunt, and it is so broad,

13:45

right? Like, it's very hot. The

13:48

instructions are very simple.

13:48

Everybody's doing the same

13:51

thing. And that's powerful, and

13:51

impactful. And one of the

13:55

wonderful things about the practice, it doesn't mean that those things are inherently

13:57

negative. But it does mean that

14:00

it's they're inherently

14:00

limiting. Right? So I think that

14:06

within the question of

14:06

backbending, pretty soon after

14:11

one begins practice, it's useful

14:11

to develop some awareness of

14:14

like nuance, and what's

14:14

appropriate for the individual

14:18

to, you know, progress and

14:18

maintain health and practice

14:22

sustainably. And so, you know,

14:22

like, there are people that will

14:25

say things like all back bending

14:25

heals the spine and these

14:29

overgeneralization are sort of

14:29

like inflammatory comments,

14:32

whether they're positive or negative, get a lot of attention, and they're quotable.

14:34

And so they're very, they're

14:37

easy to attach to because they

14:37

don't require an individual to

14:40

do a lot of critical thinking.

14:40

And we're all sort of it's it's,

14:45

it's easy as a human being to

14:45

lean into something that makes

14:49

you feel like that's the one

14:49

answer and you don't have to

14:53

delve too deep into the

14:53

particularities that might apply

14:58

to you and so yeah, backbending

14:58

is Great, like, I'd love to back

15:01

then it feels amazing. Do I back

15:01

then now the same way that I

15:04

did, when I was thought that I

15:04

would be enlightened, if I could

15:08

just get my toes to touch my

15:08

head, like no way, you know, my

15:11

practice has changed a lot. And

15:11

I think that's a normal arc for

15:14

a lot of people. And also, I

15:14

think that each individual has

15:19

the autonomy to prioritize what

15:19

they want to prioritize in their

15:21

own practice. And through all of

15:21

these endeavors that we choose

15:27

to chase, in practice, we get

15:27

the opportunity for insight and

15:32

information. So, you know, some

15:32

of the data that you got, right

15:36

back then was like, Maybe this

15:36

isn't good for me. But it's very

15:39

hard when you're in a scenario

15:39

where the energy is so intense,

15:43

there's 300 people, and there's

15:43

this very charismatic and

15:45

inspiring guy, you know, those

15:45

are his good qualities, right.

15:50

You know, like motivating you to

15:50

just keep doing it harder and

15:55

more, and that if I, you know, I

15:55

think that's, that's in the

15:58

simplest way, the biggest, you

15:58

know, gripe I have with that

16:03

practice is that, like, if it's

16:03

not working, just do it harder.

16:06

You know, and I'm all for

16:06

effort, like, you got to make

16:08

effort to find grace, but you

16:08

have to mediate effort with

16:12

skill, right? So in order to

16:12

really get somewhere that you

16:17

want to go not just get

16:17

somewhere, but get somewhere you

16:19

want to go. And progress isn't

16:19

linear, it's not straight ahead.

16:23

When something hurts, it's a

16:23

it's like a sign on the side of

16:26

the road that says, hey, like,

16:26

you pull over here, and let's

16:29

check your tires, you know. So,

16:29

yeah, I think that there's a lot

16:34

that can be said about back

16:34

bending. And I think that also

16:36

there, there are individual

16:36

genetic realities that people

16:40

want to ignore, because yoga is

16:40

supposed to be for everybody.

16:43

But the fact that not everybody

16:43

is gonna be a contortionist

16:45

doesn't mean that yoga isn't for

16:45

everybody. Right? It's like,

16:47

it's still when it's played,

16:47

like a sport, it's a sport, man,

16:51

you know, like, like, people who

16:51

play basketball and get to a

16:54

high level have either a lot of

16:54

height, or a great vertical leap

16:57

or some particular skill, you

16:57

know, and so, it's okay, that

17:02

bodies Express poses

17:02

differently, but I do feel that

17:04

bodies, all bodies can use the

17:04

same fundamentals of technique.

17:09

And so the, you know,

17:09

backbending, the more you do

17:13

something, think of it this way,

17:13

the more you do something, the

17:15

better your technique needs to

17:15

be. Because the more volume that

17:18

you that you engage in, the more

17:18

revelations you're going to

17:22

have. And the revelations are

17:22

not always pleasant, like people

17:25

think of revelation as like, Oh,

17:25

my God, this guy opens,

17:28

everything is shining bright,

17:28

and everything is beautiful, but

17:31

a revelation, you know, it means

17:31

that you come around to an

17:34

understanding. Yes. Right. And

17:34

so you might come around to an

17:37

understanding that the way that

17:37

I'm doing this ain't so good for

17:40

me anymore, you know? Yes. So,

17:44

oh, man, well said, well said,

17:44

Yeah.

17:48

And I think you're one of the

17:48

problems with these practices,

17:51

is not so much the practice

17:51

itself, it's how the practice is

17:54

used, and how the practice is

17:54

sold. You know, it's like,

17:58

there's nothing wrong with 26

17:58

and two, hot yoga, there is

18:02

something wrong with telling people, it's the only thing they ever need to do for the rest of

18:04

their lives. You know, there was

18:07

some excuse, like, are you

18:07

getting better? Are you getting

18:09

better at your practice? Are you

18:09

getting better yourself? And

18:12

every practice has holes, every

18:12

practice has blind spots, right?

18:16

Every you know, when you want to

18:16

call it lineage, or style or

18:19

brand, there's blind spots

18:19

everywhere. So you know, a

18:24

practice, I think of practice

18:24

now, from the perspective of

18:29

minimum effective dose, like how

18:29

much of something Do I need to

18:33

maintain it to the level that I

18:33

want to maintain it if I'm just

18:36

talking purely, like physical

18:36

capacity? You know, so that's an

18:39

interesting thing with backbending, right? Because there was a phase, we all went

18:40

through this, you probably did,

18:43

too, right? Where it's like,

18:43

every day, hot yoga class, and

18:46

then a bunch of back bends

18:46

afterwards, and all that kind of

18:49

thing. And that was what we

18:49

thought we needed at that time.

18:51

Right. And now I'm a little more

18:51

conscious of what what I need

18:55

and why. So yeah, I want to

18:55

maintain a back then I want to

18:58

be able to do a wheel. And I

18:58

want to be able to transition in

19:01

and out of wheel into other

19:01

floor based movements, because

19:03

that's where my passion is. Now

19:03

I like to roll around on the

19:06

floor and go into a wheel and

19:06

transition off my elbow and that

19:09

kind of thing. So I need enough

19:09

of a backbend to do that. But I

19:14

personally have decided that

19:14

that's all that's as much as I

19:17

need. You know, and then I also

19:17

know that back bends, break

19:21

habits, right, so like, they get

19:21

you out of a slump. So back

19:25

meeting practice is a great thing to do. If you're like, Man, I gotta lift my spirits,

19:27

you know? Yes. Yeah. Oh,

19:31

man. What about in terms of

19:31

actual muscle engagement. One

19:36

thing that I've started to do

19:36

is, you know, just I've had to

19:40

one of my most favorite things

19:40

to do is drop back and walk my

19:44

hands toward my heels and you

19:44

know, maybe have some one pull

19:47

me in and catch and now I've

19:47

pulled way way back just the

19:51

bridge and just my shoulders,

19:51

trying to lift hips, abductor

19:56

thighs and not compress it l

19:56

five s want as much as possible

20:01

and bend everywhere? Yes, but

20:01

not there. What type of

20:03

technique? And or could you

20:03

explain some of the nuance of

20:06

the technique you might employ

20:06

when you're working? And yeah,

20:09

I mean, I'll do my best to

20:09

articulate it verbally. You

20:12

know, first of all, like, you

20:12

know, I'd never have caught my

20:16

ankles. So I'm, you know, how

20:16

that feel. might have just been

20:20

painful or might have been

20:20

exciting? I don't know. Great

20:22

question. It used to be really

20:22

fun. And then I remember one

20:24

time I had my, my teacher, Tim

20:24

Miller, he pulled me in when I

20:27

was down in Miami. And, and then

20:27

I couldn't walk after I went to

20:32

the hotel where I was staying in

20:32

and no, it was miserable. And

20:35

that was like the beginning sign

20:35

of like, a minimum is what I'm

20:40

doing actually good for me. And

20:40

you know, like that question

20:43

that you start popping up. But

20:43

like you just initially, like,

20:45

you're at what you're talking about, where this is thought of like, all yoga is going to be

20:47

good no matter what, as much as

20:50

you can do more and more and

20:50

more. And I don't know, where

20:54

that comes from, if that's like

20:54

our American culture, if that's

20:57

like our, like, if we grew up

20:57

with some sort of trauma, or

21:01

what, where that stems from, but

21:01

yeah, I like the word. I like

21:05

the fact that use the word

21:05

revelation, that is a great way

21:09

to sum up that turning point

21:09

where, what for more growth

21:16

comes about? Sure. And I think these, this

21:17

motivation to do more, that

21:25

doesn't get us anywhere

21:25

transcends as an individual

21:28

culture. And I think that it's a

21:28

representation of just the sweet

21:34

weakness of the human desire to

21:34

please our own egos, or somebody

21:40

else. And, you know, if you look

21:40

at life outside of yoga, we're

21:44

all doing things that we have to

21:44

learn from, whether they're in

21:47

relationships, or in work

21:47

scenarios, where there comes a

21:53

time where you have to assess if

21:53

what you're doing is still not

21:57

just productive, but

21:57

sustainable, nourishing, really

22:02

filling you up in the way that

22:02

you want to be filled. You know,

22:08

it's like, it's almost like

22:08

choosing what you're eating, you

22:11

know, people reference a lot

22:11

like the information economy and

22:15

and organizing your attention.

22:15

But and it's the same in a

22:19

practice or in, you know,

22:19

something that I'm always trying

22:23

to recalibrate, towards is

22:23

sensing in my practice, and

22:29

working on details that I can

22:29

acknowledge through feeling, you

22:36

know, like, through through my

22:36

neurology and say, you know,

22:39

like, if I'm working on my handstand practice, I'm working on one simple thing, like my

22:41

teachers, like, feel your

22:44

kneecaps, you know, when I'm

22:44

trying to transition to my baby,

22:47

beginning of one arm handstand

22:47

work that I'm doing right? And

22:51

so okay, I feel that I feel that

22:51

sensation. And then what are the

22:54

other element? What are the

22:54

other experiences that are

22:58

offshoots of doing those

22:58

engagements? And then things

23:03

that are not guided by feeling

23:03

like organizing myself based on

23:06

angles? And then what is but

23:06

then what is the sensory

23:09

feedback of that? And how does

23:09

it feel? And what does it tell

23:12

me? So I think that the the

23:12

power of these things is, okay,

23:20

how does the physical practice

23:20

relate in a way that is bigger

23:24

than the physical practice? And

23:24

how are those behaviors connect?

23:27

And how do those patterns

23:27

connect? And what can I learn

23:29

about myself through this

23:29

gauntlet that I keep putting

23:33

myself through that isn't

23:33

productive? Right? And right, so

23:38

it's like, what because what why

23:38

are we doing this like, are to

23:41

feel good? Well, maybe to feel

23:41

good to get insight also, and

23:44

just to keep going and stay

23:44

interested in the the infinite

23:51

game of being human and

23:51

revealing yourself to yourself?

23:57

Yes, and, and, and I think

23:57

there's something else really

24:00

important here too, that I want

24:00

to point out, which is practice

24:05

is what can work it. It's

24:05

problematic when the way that

24:12

practice makes us feel that

24:12

we've, that we're being

24:15

ourselves, becomes the only way

24:15

that we can be ourselves. Right?

24:20

It's like, if I don't do this

24:20

thing, I can't operate. If I

24:25

don't do these poses. I'm not

24:25

gonna feel okay about myself. So

24:30

then it's like, the, you know,

24:30

it's like now that's only have

24:36

you only have one coat you can

24:36

wear good point, but

24:43

the point and I'm gathering you,

24:43

you do feel a desire to be able

24:47

to wear multiple, change that

24:47

code. Yeah, yeah. I

24:54

mean, one of the most powerful

24:54

things you can do in life is

24:56

accept the circumstances and

24:56

reorganize, which is Different

25:00

than, like, lacking the discipline to stick with something. But sometimes in

25:02

order to stick with something,

25:04

you have to change the way that

25:04

you're doing it or you have to,

25:07

you know, you gotta plan better.

25:07

You know, I'm dealing with that

25:11

right now with this retreat

25:11

center project that I'm working

25:13

on in Montana. It's like, Man, I

25:13

got punched in the face, you

25:17

know, a few months ago, getting

25:17

denied permits and whatnot. And,

25:21

and so and, you know, that was

25:21

that came right out of my, my

25:26

blind spot of thinking that I'm

25:26

doing good work and everything,

25:30

you know, and people like me,

25:30

and why wouldn't anybody want

25:32

this? Right? But, I mean, that's

25:32

the that's the beauty of a

25:35

revelation because I came

25:35

around, right? So like I liked,

25:39

I liked the closeness of the

25:39

word, the word revolve and the

25:42

word word revelation, right?

25:42

Because I feel like, you have to

25:45

go through a revolution to get

25:45

to a revelation. Because you got

25:49

to come all the way around to see somebody else's point of view, you got to come all the

25:51

way around to see how what you

25:54

thought was so crucial and

25:54

important. And essential to your

25:57

identity is no longer that, for

25:57

example, catching your ankles in

26:02

a backbend, which was this thing

26:02

that was so important to you,

26:06

and you were so hard to do it,

26:06

and then you did it. And you're

26:08

like, Well, why am I doing this? It hurts. Especially the hurts.

26:11

Yeah.

26:14

Yeah. And some things well, some

26:14

things that are good for us will

26:17

hurt. But the but it's like, how

26:17

do you respond to the hurt in a

26:23

way that recognizes that you're

26:23

evolving? And developing? And

26:29

sometimes the answer is to

26:29

simply sit with it? Yes, yes.

26:36

You know, yes, it posing, you

26:36

know, like, we want to be Oh, we

26:39

get that pose, and then I'll be

26:39

happy. You know, I get that

26:43

person, then I'll be happy, I'll

26:43

get this money, then I'll be

26:45

happy. And of course, like, we got to take care of our primitive needs. You need enough

26:46

money, right? You need a place

26:51

to sleep and foods to eat, and

26:51

you want to be able to do the

26:53

things you want to do. But it's

26:53

interesting how the practice is

27:00

very, it's like a you know, it's

27:00

like a devil and an angel,

27:04

right? Yes. I was thinking about this

27:04

just the other day. Yeah, look

27:10

around this side. Look around

27:10

that some of you

27:12

asked me about backfilling

27:12

technique. Did you want me to

27:15

try to talk about that deal? Well, first, first of all, I

27:16

really just enjoyed about listening, what you said is,

27:18

like, when I watched your some

27:20

of the footage that you have

27:20

available for us to check out,

27:24

obviously, well, to me, it seems

27:24

obvious that you have a very

27:28

technical ability with your

27:28

movement ability. So it's

27:33

fascinating to me to hear the

27:33

intellect involved in the

27:38

technique, the technical like,

27:38

because sometimes, you know,

27:42

when we look at this really

27:42

incredible expression of

27:45

physical movement and or yoga,

27:45

and it looks so challenging,

27:49

like beyond what we could

27:49

potentially do, and then

27:52

obviously, we can work on it and

27:52

perfect it and, and gain some

27:56

skill. But it's really cool to

27:56

hear your sort of intellect

28:01

behind the technique and the

28:01

technical. So yes, I really

28:05

would like to hear some of some

28:05

technical ideas around.

28:10

Stabilizing. Yeah, angst, chaos.

28:16

Yeah, I mean, I really

28:16

appreciate what you said, it's

28:18

very kind of you, it's kind of

28:18

you're telling me that I'm good

28:21

at the physical part, because I

28:21

don't feel like I am, which is

28:23

something that I have been

28:23

working on throughout my whole,

28:26

you know, practice. It's very

28:26

second nature to me, like, I

28:30

don't feel like I have a body

28:30

that was built for flexibility,

28:32

or yoga or anything like that.

28:32

And, you know, there's been long

28:35

phases where I'm practicing with

28:35

people that are just like, man,

28:37

like, it's like, what, what

28:37

circus planet that I land on

28:41

right now, you know, so I've had

28:41

to really learn to moderate my

28:46

expectations around my practice,

28:46

and find other things that fill

28:50

me up, you know, and excite me,

28:50

and make me feel good the way

28:54

that that I thought that certain

28:54

yoga postures would, you know,

28:59

and so for me that's shifted.

28:59

And, and I think that's where

29:02

having some diversity in one's

29:02

practice can be so powerful, so

29:05

that you, you always get the

29:05

dopamine hit of feeling like you

29:08

check the box of doing a

29:08

practice. But now, you know,

29:10

it's like, some days my practice

29:10

is a is a standing sort of

29:13

Qigong type of practice where

29:13

like, I'm standing on position

29:17

and moving my arms, and I'm

29:17

doing that for 30 minutes. And

29:21

it's a movement quality

29:21

practice, you know, and I'm not

29:23

saying it's better or worse than

29:23

yoga, or whatever. I'm just

29:25

saying, like, for being an

29:25

individual for everybody, right,

29:27

like, you know. So I think that

29:27

just recognizing that you have

29:32

the autonomy to choose, but

29:32

within the autonomy to choose is

29:37

the downside of being spread too

29:37

thin and not getting anywhere.

29:42

And so that's the magic of the

29:42

discipline of some of these

29:44

classical practices. You know,

29:44

like you mentioned, you practice

29:47

Ashtanga, we're like, okay, you have to do this many days a week and you only rest on this day,

29:49

and you show up at exactly this

29:52

time. I mean, that is that's

29:52

magic. That's Practical Magic

29:55

that gives you a power and so

29:55

Whoo, you know, how do you

30:01

balance those things? You know,

30:01

well said, and I think the, and

30:05

I think the piece that you

30:05

pointed out about, like the what

30:08

the way that I think about this

30:08

stuff, and it for me that really

30:11

connects to the like, technical

30:11

awareness. Because I am, I'm a

30:17

thinker. So I like to think

30:17

through things. And I like to

30:21

look at how they happen. And I

30:21

see really well. And those are

30:24

really my skills much more than

30:24

physical practice, like a

30:26

physical practice has given me

30:26

anything. It's given me the

30:29

ability to teach better. And I

30:29

think that the fact that a lot

30:34

of this stuff is second nature

30:34

for me, it doesn't come easily,

30:37

you know, and I beat my head

30:37

against the wall in my physical

30:39

practice all the time. I think

30:39

it gives me more compassion for

30:44

other people. And it gives me

30:44

more tools to help other people,

30:47

you know. So that's, that's the

30:47

upside of being on the long road

30:53

to minimal progress. Practice. Long Road and minimal

30:57

progress. Yeah. Like it.

31:03

So yeah. And then as far as the

31:03

back bending thing goes, I mean,

31:07

I'll just give you a few ideas

31:07

that I think about, you know, or

31:10

that I work on. So one thing

31:10

that I think you know, anyone

31:13

dealing with, like back injury

31:13

and back pain, I think something

31:16

that's crucial, that doesn't

31:16

really happen in a yoga context,

31:20

is working on movement. That is

31:20

more fluid, like spinal wave

31:27

type movements, I think can be

31:27

really useful. And also a great

31:32

small dose tool to have at your

31:32

disposal, when you just need

31:36

like a movement snack, I think

31:36

it brings awareness into the

31:40

different segments of the spine.

31:40

And if what we're really trying

31:44

to do with back bending, and

31:44

movement is just like, move the

31:47

bones around so that the snow vo

31:47

fluid gets excited and stays

31:50

healthy. You don't need to go

31:50

super deep just to be healthy.

31:53

Right? Like, that's a that's a

31:53

miscommunication. I think that

31:56

exists a lot in yoga, that is

31:56

like, well, the deeper you go,

31:59

the healthier you are. And

31:59

that's not necessarily true. You

32:04

know, it's like, how much how

32:04

much do you need? You know,

32:09

that's an important question to

32:09

ask. So that's one thing. And

32:11

then the other thing that's like

32:11

a movement perspective, and then

32:14

I think there's a mobility

32:14

perspective, and I look at

32:16

movement, and mobility is

32:16

different. These are, these are

32:18

definitions that I use, movement

32:18

is more global, right? Like the

32:21

whole spine is moving. And then

32:21

mobility is like, segmented

32:26

movement of the spine, for

32:26

example, where you're trying to

32:31

move each piece as independently

32:31

as possible, because the more

32:36

that each piece moves, well, the

32:36

the more that the whole concert

32:40

plays in tune. So oftentimes,

32:40

you know, I mean, really what

32:44

injury is, is when when load

32:44

exceeds capacity. So like, for

32:48

example, a low back injury just

32:48

means that like that area's

32:52

getting hit too hard, you know,

32:52

it's like you just keep keeps

32:55

getting hit, and the other

32:55

pieces aren't playing along. And

32:58

eventually, it's just like, Yo,

32:58

man, that's enough. Like, I

33:01

can't take any more. So now I'm

33:01

going to send you this pain

33:03

signal to tell you that you're,

33:03

you're putting too much pressure

33:05

on me. So, you know, I think

33:05

about distributing the backbend

33:10

more evenly throughout the

33:10

spine, which might mean

33:13

minimizing minimizing the

33:13

overall expression, the global

33:16

expression of the post I look

33:16

at, like, you know, I think it's

33:21

important if you if someone

33:21

wants to develop their backbend,

33:24

and they want to do it in a

33:24

sustainable way. I mean, you got

33:27

to work a lot on the front of

33:27

your hips. Learn how to engage

33:31

your glutes to drive your hips,

33:31

so that you can make that space.

33:35

You know, I think for a long

33:35

time in yoga muscle got a bad

33:37

name, right? It's like, because

33:37

it's dumb, no tension, don't

33:41

make any tension. And it's like,

33:41

it's impossible to not have

33:44

tension in your body, if you're

33:44

doing exercises, Yoga Asanas or

33:48

exercises, right? So it's like,

33:48

instead, let's put intention in

33:51

our tension, so that you move

33:51

bones in a way that will create

33:57

space. And so hips, shoulders

33:57

and shoulders doesn't just mean

34:01

stretching them. It's like

34:01

developing awareness of how to

34:05

create space in the joint

34:05

through isolated internal

34:07

rotation work, and then working

34:07

on external rotation so that you

34:11

have the, you know, like, when I

34:11

go into a wheel now, right,

34:13

like, let's say I'm pushing up

34:13

from the floor, I'm thinking a

34:16

lot about the CO contraction of

34:16

the entire back side of my body,

34:19

and like pulling my hands and

34:19

feet towards each other, so that

34:23

the so as I pull, pull inwards

34:23

with the with those, and those

34:28

endpoints, that the center of

34:28

the post can expand, and express

34:32

itself more evenly. And then a

34:32

lot of his understanding and

34:36

awareness is not going to come

34:36

from doing a wheel. If a wheel

34:40

is hard for you, right? It's

34:40

like you got to make the problem

34:42

smaller. So it's like someone

34:42

might need to put their feet up

34:45

on a on a chair on some blocks

34:45

or on a sofa and duo elevated

34:49

wheel which is like oh, that's

34:49

what it feels like to get into

34:51

my upper back and shoulders, you

34:51

know? So I think breaking things

34:55

down, making them smaller, so

34:55

that you can hit each piece and

34:59

then Uh, you you kind of

34:59

optimize each piece and then put

35:02

the puzzle back together. And I

35:02

think that really helps

35:06

create points. Those are

35:06

awesome, man. Do you have more?

35:10

For me, that's good. I'm following you all the way through. You know, I really

35:12

appreciate all Another big

35:19

one is another big one in back

35:19

bending is how you move your

35:22

head to feel into the upper

35:22

spine more. So I think that

35:26

people get stuck in kind of two

35:26

camps. One is like, you know,

35:30

bring your head all the way back

35:30

right away and look all the way

35:33

back and that'll move your whole

35:33

spine doesn't really work like

35:35

that, then there's another camp

35:35

that's like, Oh, be careful of

35:38

your neck, right. And I usually

35:38

end up in the middle, right of

35:41

all these sort of like endpoint

35:41

dogmas. And so I have developed

35:47

this little terminology that I

35:47

think is really cute. And I call

35:50

it the Head to Heart loop. So

35:50

what it means is, like, you

35:53

imagine that there's a circle

35:53

from the throne of your, you

35:55

know, your spiritual heart to

35:55

your third eye out the back of

35:58

your head and into the backyard,

35:58

it's a circle. And I think about

36:01

moving my head along that

36:01

circle. So as I like, when I

36:04

started back, then the first

36:04

thing I do is glide my chin

36:07

backwards, and then start to

36:07

reach my head up. And that

36:11

immediately gives you this like

36:11

mid back activation. And it's a

36:15

nice way to work into that area

36:15

without having to go into like a

36:18

crazy deep posture. So that's,

36:18

that's one thing that I think

36:20

is, you know, really helpful. That is good. Yeah, like that.

36:23

Yeah, I'm excited. Um,

36:28

and then you know, different

36:28

ways to use your hips and your

36:30

low back muscles at the same

36:30

time. I always think about a

36:33

joint moving in two directions,

36:33

but really being centered. So

36:36

it's like, you know, options

36:36

with shoulders, depending on the

36:42

type of shoulder structure that

36:42

someone has, you know, someone

36:45

who has very bendy shoulders,

36:45

and is looking to access more of

36:53

the upper spine might want to

36:53

shut down some of the shoulder

36:56

range by externally rotating on

36:56

purpose, someone like me leaves

37:01

tighter in the shoulders and has

37:01

a lot of thick back muscle. I am

37:05

actually now when I go into a

37:05

wheel, I pull my shoulder blades

37:10

back and together. And I and I

37:10

let my elbows open out to the

37:16

sides as I as I go up, and then

37:16

I get this sort of like, like,

37:22

almost like opening a can

37:22

effect, you know, that allows me

37:25

to pull my my chest through. So

37:25

it's for me, it's like the

37:29

scapulae go back and up. But for

37:29

you know, a long time in yoga

37:34

was almost like, you know,

37:34

religion that you had to what

37:39

people were calling wrap the

37:39

shoulders externally rotate the

37:42

upper arm, you know, and and for

37:42

people who are tighter, that's

37:46

just gonna put more pressure on

37:46

the low back and be too

37:50

limiting, you know, so again,

37:50

context matters.

37:52

Good point. I like the fact that

37:52

you're looking at things from

37:56

the big picture and attempting

37:56

to solve puzzle problems by

38:04

examining it. And then yeah,

38:04

coming up through through

38:08

intelligence versus like you

38:08

said, the blind dog ideas. What

38:11

are some what are some other

38:11

teachers? Because obviously, I

38:14

remember in the Bikram world

38:14

thinking there's got to be more

38:17

to yoga than this. And then I

38:17

started moving out what was your

38:20

trajectory with other teachings

38:20

and

38:23

teacher practices? Yeah, yeah.

38:23

So I started with a Kundalini

38:27

thing, which was wild. I was

38:27

like a, you know, partying 20

38:30

year old should go into like

38:30

Kundalini, it was like, I didn't

38:33

even look at the schedule, I'll

38:33

just show up. And I then I

38:36

realized that the class that I

38:36

was attending most frequently

38:38

was the one that was like,

38:38

Kundalini yoga philosophy and

38:40

lecture, which was quite funny.

38:40

Because that was usually like in

38:44

there, you know, was would be

38:44

not unlikely that I was in there

38:47

like hungover after, like a

38:47

night out, you know? And then I

38:50

found the Bikram thing. And then

38:50

the next practice that I dove

38:55

into pretty deep was Dharma

38:55

Mitra yoga in New York City. So

39:00

I spent a lot of time have a lot

39:00

of really wonderful memories of,

39:03

you know, a core group of

39:03

friends that would all be there

39:06

together, practicing every day

39:06

at noon in his masterclass. And

39:09

that was very devotional, you know, it felt like we were really part of something

39:11

special. And we were, you know,

39:14

because anytime you're connecting with a group of humans, and you have that sense

39:15

of community is is very special.

39:23

And I think that's one of the

39:23

most important elements of

39:25

practice. There's obviously a

39:25

solitary nature to practice,

39:27

eventually, we're all alone. But

39:27

at the same point, one of the

39:31

powers of practices the way that

39:31

it brings people together, and I

39:34

think that's something that

39:34

people, you know, always have

39:36

needed, and we still really need

39:36

today. And as I've gotten older,

39:41

and my practice has changed,

39:41

and, you know, my events now,

39:45

whether they're retreats or trainings or whatnot, like it's really as much about just like

39:47

having a good time with a group of people for a while, as it is

39:49

about making sure that they

39:52

learn every detail, you know.

39:52

So, yeah, so then then, so that

39:58

was that and then you know, And

39:58

then I found forest yoga with

40:01

Anna forest, when I did a couple

40:01

of her teacher trainings, and

40:05

that was also very powerful, you

40:05

know, all these practices are

40:08

different, and all of them think

40:08

that they're the only way to do

40:10

it. And and there's magic in

40:10

each one, you know, there really

40:15

is. And as I was sort of, in

40:15

doing a lot of forced yoga, I

40:21

found Katonah yoga developed by

40:21

Naveen machine and, and spent a

40:28

lot of time with also with Abby

40:28

Galvin, who is the you know, I

40:34

don't know exactly how I would

40:34

phrase it. But you know, Naveen

40:36

developed the stuff. And Abby's

40:36

sort of like the the other

40:40

longest standing teacher of the

40:40

thing, who who's very well

40:46

informed and, and incredible. So

40:46

I spent a lot of time with them.

40:51

And, you know, what was that?

40:51

And then from there, develop my

40:55

own thing, you know, and I'd say

40:55

if there's any yoga teacher that

40:58

I'm still connected to, at this

40:58

point, who I'd look at, as a

41:01

mentor to Naveen, you know, I'm

41:01

lucky enough to like, like,

41:04

FaceTime her from time to time.

41:04

And, you know, we just talk

41:08

about stuff and I get to hear

41:08

her wisdom. And yeah, so that's,

41:13

as far as yoga goes that the

41:13

trajectory, there's been a lot

41:16

of other stuff in there. And,

41:16

you know, the movement world and

41:20

whatnot. Throughout that time, I

41:20

spent some time, like a brief

41:25

period with the sort of Ido

41:25

portal world. And then I'm still

41:30

kind of peripherally connected

41:30

to that through a studio in

41:33

Dallas, and a guy that called

41:33

Brian who gives me programming.

41:39

And I'm unfamiliar, I'm unfamiliar

41:41

with that. Can you say that one

41:44

again, that particular style of Yeah, Ido portal is this

41:46

brilliant Israeli movements. guy

41:50

who has basically done

41:50

everything and has devoted his

41:53

life to it. And he, they have a

41:53

whole system of one on one

42:01

programming that they offer and

42:01

events and workshops and things

42:04

like that, and it's constantly

42:04

evolving. I have a lot of

42:07

respect for the guy he's he's a

42:07

he's a thinker, a mover and a

42:12

thinker. And he uses movement as

42:12

a delivery system for thought

42:16

and and, you know, I don't I,

42:16

you'd be hard pressed to find

42:19

anyone in the world who's spent

42:19

more time honing, very his

42:23

craft, which is many craps. The

42:23

irony of it is that I actually

42:28

got kicked out of Ido portal

42:28

movement world, which is another

42:31

funny story. Can you share it?

42:35

Yeah, I mean, it's not that big

42:35

of a deal. I think he's mellowed

42:37

out a lot since then. But I had

42:37

been to his movement camp, and

42:42

there was this online community.

42:42

And he does not a huge fan of

42:46

yoga, I think he's mellowed on

42:46

his stance a lot. And I actually

42:49

understand his perspective. And

42:49

I think it's valid, you know,

42:52

the perspective was sort of that

42:52

like yoga is an inferior method

42:57

of developing movement capacity.

42:57

And I agree, I don't think yoga

43:01

develops coordination, you know,

43:01

you can't compare a yoga Yogi to

43:04

like a high level dancer or, you

43:04

know, martial artists or

43:10

anything like that, from the

43:10

perspective of how they move,

43:12

you know, because yoga is mostly

43:12

static postures, and I

43:15

understand there's been nuances

43:15

and transitions, but it's so

43:17

it's so contained, that the,

43:17

just the level of ability is not

43:23

isn't it can't it can't be

43:23

compared. It doesn't mean yoga

43:26

is bad, right. So I understand

43:26

his perspective there. And I

43:29

think at the time he was he was

43:29

very vehement about that. And

43:32

so, in this movement culture

43:32

group, there was a guy who

43:35

posted something of a, he posted

43:35

a picture, but you told them

43:38

that he had drawn some like

43:38

little squigglies on it. And he

43:40

had taken a workshop with one of

43:40

Ito's colleagues who's this

43:43

amazing woman called Shy for on

43:43

that I had the opportunity to

43:46

practice with a few times, she's

43:46

a modern dancer, is really

43:49

modern dancer. And he and he

43:49

wrote in his little caption, he

43:52

said, you know, this is a

43:52

reminder that you know, that my

43:56

practice is not only linear on

43:56

my yoga mat, but you know, can

44:01

expand far beyond this, you

44:01

know, two foot by six foot

44:05

space, and it was actually quite

44:05

a nice post, and, you know,

44:08

jumped on there just kind of

44:08

shit on the guy about yoga. And

44:12

I made the mistake of sort of

44:12

defending yoga as a delivery

44:17

system to Edo for many students.

44:17

And then we kind of got into it.

44:21

And I said, some things I shouldn't have said, and I regret the whole thing now,

44:23

because arguing with anyone on

44:25

the internet, especially someone

44:25

you respect, and you're I was in

44:27

his house, you know, I'm in his

44:27

in his movement community thing,

44:30

you know, so it's just like, I,

44:30

I'm good at words. And I went a

44:36

step too far. And I regret that,

44:36

you know, I do think some of my

44:39

points were valid, but at that

44:39

point, I was, you know,

44:42

excommunicated. And I think it's

44:42

a great lesson, honestly,

44:45

because it's really about like,

44:45

is this the right time to say

44:50

these things? And is this the

44:50

right forum? And how's it going

44:52

to play long term like, what did

44:52

it do for me to make that

44:56

argument like, nothing, you

44:56

know, and it's not like it was

44:58

an argument where like, I'm

44:58

defending the rights of some,

45:02

you know, underserved community

45:02

or person or fighting for

45:06

justice in any way that really

45:06

matters. Like I'm arguing about

45:09

fucking yoga on the internet,

45:09

like, what could be a worse way

45:11

to spend your time? You know? So

45:11

yeah, so I learned from that

45:14

experience, and then, um, you

45:14

know, I do still train sort of,

45:18

like I said, peripheral that

45:18

method with, with someone, an

45:22

old longtime friend of mine in

45:22

Dallas was this great studio.

45:24

And so, you know, I don't know,

45:24

imagine you do or will ever hear

45:27

this podcast, but he does.

45:27

Sorry, I said those things.

45:29

Think you're great. And, you

45:29

know, yeah, peace be on to you.

45:35

I hear Yeah, I appreciate you

45:35

sharing that story. Thank you so

45:38

much. I like hearing some of the

45:38

ins and outs of the challenges

45:41

that we face if you're in the

45:41

yoga community for a long time.

45:44

And, and that's, that's

45:44

fascinating. What other so now,

45:50

you mentioned that you have your

45:50

own style. So like, say if I

45:53

were to come to one of your

45:53

teacher trainings, what what are

45:58

the main things that you feel

45:58

are essential to convey to your

46:04

students I and I want to back

46:04

way, way up when you mentioned

46:07

Thoreau talk meditation, I just

46:07

want to make sure the listeners

46:10

know what that is. Can you see I

46:10

know, it's maybe Yeah, everybody

46:14

knows that. That is my case. Can

46:14

you just explain that one

46:16

a little bit? Yeah, basically,

46:16

you um, the simplest way to

46:18

describe it is you you stare at

46:18

a candle flame for as long as

46:21

you can keep your eyes open. And

46:21

then you close your eyes. And

46:25

you just remain with your eyes

46:25

closed until you lose the image

46:29

of the candle flame, or you're,

46:29

you know, or your mind starts to

46:33

wander, and then you open your

46:33

eyes again, and you just do it

46:35

for a while. And it's great.

46:35

It's like super simple Transy

46:38

eyes, it's, I think it's a nice

46:38

balance for the eyes with all

46:42

the screentime that we have,

46:42

nowadays. And you know, because

46:46

it's a concentration practice,

46:46

it really, it fades the

46:52

exterior. And so I think it's a

46:52

nice, it's a nice one, you know,

46:56

I find it's really nice at

46:56

night, I have a funny story from

46:58

my, my, your beta teacher, who I

46:58

no longer work with, but I

47:04

learned a lot from him. And he's

47:04

a Australian and Swedish guy who

47:12

grew up in India, you know, on

47:12

an ashram, like, since he was a

47:15

little kid, and then came to the

47:15

US. And he helped me a lot along

47:20

the way. And he said that, you

47:20

know, when when his family was

47:23

living in India, his mother got

47:23

a lot of she's very unusual

47:28

looking person in that context.

47:28

And she got a lot of unwanted

47:30

attention. And he said that

47:30

there is their teacher taught

47:36

her to do Trataka and said that

47:36

it would make her her the her

47:39

eyes so powerful that she could

47:39

make people move away from her

47:43

with a glance. And apparently,

47:43

it worked. According to him, you

47:47

know, she started walking around, it's giving people the, you know, the evil eye, and they

47:50

would leave her alone. So I

47:52

think that's pretty cool. And it's cool. And it's cool.

47:53

Yeah. Nice. So that's, you

47:57

know, that's anecdotal. I don't,

47:57

I don't know how it actually

48:00

played. But I like I do like

48:00

that you're talking meditation,

48:03

my meditations now. Um, I do a

48:03

few different things. But I'm

48:08

mostly it's very simple. You

48:08

know, as time is scarce, and

48:13

meditation remains essential.

48:13

I've really found that what I

48:17

need most, and what's most

48:17

important for me is just to sit.

48:20

So it's like, it's kind of a

48:20

simple mindfulness practice, I

48:23

just need to sit. You know,

48:23

there's so I think, I think,

48:27

practice can become tricky, in

48:27

that it's easy to reach for

48:33

another technique. And while

48:33

developing technique gives us

48:38

more options. The ultimate

48:38

option is to sit quietly, and

48:45

feel things, right, because it's

48:45

like, you know, you go through

48:49

different things in life, some

48:49

of them are quite sad. And I

48:55

could sit down and magic square

48:55

myself for an hour, and I would

48:59

feel good, right? And it would,

48:59

it would change my state. But I

49:04

don't know, man, I might need to

49:04

sit and observe my feelings.

49:06

Without following each one down.

49:06

It's, you know, true, true

49:11

potential trajectory. That, to

49:11

me feels really impactful at

49:14

this point. Good point. Did you get a chance

49:16

to practice some meditation

49:19

today? Well, so I was planning on it,

49:22

actually. But instead, I was

49:29

working on a boiler. That was my

49:29

meditation. My meditation was

49:34

actually to, you know, just

49:34

mellow out from the frustration

49:37

I felt about the fact that what

49:37

happened was actually I saw my

49:42

mom's here visiting, which is

49:42

really cute. And we went into

49:45

town last night to have dinner

49:45

with some friends and is very

49:49

cold here right now, like I

49:49

said, and I, you know, usually

49:52

go outside before I go to bed

49:52

and I think I just went outside

49:55

on my deck briefly and because

49:55

it's so cold, you know the door

50:00

was that I have in the house, they have this nice seal where you close the door and you gotta

50:01

pull it up. But I didn't do that

50:04

I think I didn't do the pull up.

50:04

So the door in my area house

50:07

actually blew open in the middle

50:07

of night. And so I woke up in my

50:11

bedroom was still kind of warm,

50:11

but like then that area right

50:14

outside my bedroom was like,

50:14

below freezing. So that kind of

50:19

like set things off in the

50:19

house. So I basically kind of

50:22

spent the morning reconciling or

50:22

dealing with the issue, which I

50:29

guess you could call it a short

50:29

arc or karma, right? Because

50:31

it's like, I didn't check the

50:31

door. So you're not gonna deal

50:34

with it. So yeah, so I didn't I

50:34

do. I didn't have much of a

50:40

practice this morning. I just

50:40

kind of like, moved my joints

50:43

around as I was doing things. Understood. I hear you and

50:44

there's still time in the day,

50:47

isn't there? Exactly. Yeah. I'm

50:47

curious what brought you to

50:50

Bozeman, are you originally from

50:50

there, or what was

50:53

no, I'm an east coaster. I grew

50:53

up in New York and Connecticut

50:56

and went to college in Los

50:56

Angeles. Then I lived in France,

51:00

you know, on and off for 15

51:00

years, and I was running the Lux

51:02

yoga retreat center there. So I

51:02

first went to Bozeman and 2012.

51:06

I got invited here to teach

51:06

workshops. It was like, at that

51:09

time, I was like, I think maybe

51:09

I could live here one day, you

51:11

know. And then when COVID hit it

51:11

very much expedited my exit from

51:18

France. And so I, I had been

51:18

back to Bozeman almost every

51:24

year for ongoing for workshops,

51:24

since that first one. And it was

51:30

actually the second the last

51:30

place that I stopped to teach on

51:35

my teaching tour, just prior to

51:35

COVID. And what I wanted to

51:42

recreate in the US was a

51:42

situation where I lived at the

51:46

place where I brought people for

51:46

retreats and trainings and

51:50

events. And I wanted a place

51:50

that, you know gave me access to

51:54

things that I love to do like

51:54

the outside and be in nature,

51:57

but also, you know, still like a

51:57

town with an airport and some

52:01

restaurants and you know, social

52:01

life and whatnot. And where I

52:05

could create a retreat center,

52:05

and Bozeman just checked a lot

52:08

of those boxes. And over the

52:08

years, I developed a small group

52:12

of really cool friends here that

52:12

I love. So it kind of made

52:16

sense. And they're

52:18

amazing how far away out are you

52:18

from opening up your retreat

52:23

center, you made mention a little bit about the challenges with permits. And so what

52:25

remains

52:28

to be seen really, you know,

52:28

right now I'm in this process

52:31

where I've adjusted, what would

52:31

be my re application. My

52:38

application caused a lot of

52:38

consternation in the

52:40

neighborhood. And so I'm in the

52:40

process of some neighborhood

52:45

outreach to hopefully help

52:45

people understand how I won't

52:48

disrupt them. And, you know, so

52:48

the timeline right now is I'm

52:55

hoping to I've been hosting

52:55

these neighborhood roundtables,

52:58

you know, and it's, everything's

52:58

just always worked better when

53:00

you can speak to people face to

53:00

face. And my hope is to reapply

53:07

in the next couple of you know,

53:07

in the next couple months, or

53:09

maybe as soon as the end of this

53:09

month, and then be back in front

53:13

of the county planning commission, like sometime in February. At the same time, I'm

53:15

planning other events elsewhere,

53:20

you know, because it's like you,

53:20

you gotta you gotta eat, you

53:22

know? Yes. And, and I just

53:22

launched an online school, which

53:28

is great. And I'm really excited

53:28

about we actually the first

53:31

class tomorrow, during COVID, I

53:31

did this sort of like endless

53:34

run of like these 30 hour online

53:34

trainings that were great during

53:37

that phase, because people had a

53:37

lot more free time. So what I've

53:41

done is sort of condensed the

53:41

curriculum, and it's now a

53:45

monthly membership. So I'm not

53:45

so interested in like, you know,

53:49

this month is backbend month,

53:49

and this month is handstand

53:52

month, and by the end of the

53:52

month, you'll have perfected

53:54

everything, it's like, really

53:54

more at the angle right now.

53:57

It's like, I just want to have a

53:57

community. And we practice

54:00

together. And over the course of

54:00

a year, nice things happen. And

54:03

then if people want to train

54:03

specific skills, or they want

54:06

like additional personalized

54:06

programming, you know, that's

54:09

where we can really hone in but

54:09

this is kind of like I look at

54:12

this online school is the

54:12

bedrock of everything else that

54:15

someone wants to do, right. So

54:15

it's like if someone is looking

54:17

just to get their, you know,

54:17

weekly yoga and mobility

54:20

practice, I also send people a

54:20

monthly morning routine. And

54:24

there's a mobility focus every

54:24

month. And so, it's, it's, it

54:30

can be like, all you do from a

54:30

yoga mobility perspective and

54:34

give you time to go do other

54:34

things. Or you know, some

54:36

students are like, they're,

54:36

they're gung ho hardcore, and

54:39

like, they're gonna do those two classes with me a week, they're gonna do their morning routine,

54:41

they're gonna do their mobility

54:44

focus. And then after yoga, they

54:44

might do their hand balance

54:47

practice, or they might, you know, they do a bunch of other stuff too. So it's, I'm really

54:48

excited about it. And I'm really

54:53

excited to reconnect with

54:53

everybody because we did build a

54:55

really cool online community

54:55

during that time and I just, you

54:58

know, it's a kind of a world reopen And I was like, oh, everything, maybe it's gonna be

55:00

back to normal. And, you know,

55:03

and then I realized a couple of

55:03

things. And I was just sort of

55:06

hemming and hawing, I knew I

55:06

wanted to go back to the online

55:08

thing, because I just missed the

55:08

ongoing connection with people

55:11

all over the world. You know,

55:11

and, and I think it's a really

55:15

cool thing, because it gives

55:15

people from all over a way to

55:17

connect with each other. And

55:17

also, you know, like, with me,

55:22

and I get to connect with them, you know, because not everybody can show up to a retreat or a

55:24

training, you know, for all

55:27

kinds of different reasons. I agree with you. I think it's

55:28

so cool to see how this is

55:31

evolving and relations like what

55:31

you said, like the absolute need

55:34

to do online, then that retreat

55:34

from online because it's so

55:37

great to get back with

55:37

everybody. And now realizing

55:39

Actually, both are really cool

55:39

to have the, the opportunity to

55:43

both so I can find that on

55:43

Benjamin Sears dot Life website.

55:47

Correct? Exactly, yeah, Benjamin Sears

55:48

dot life, and there's a big

55:50

thing to click on the online

55:50

program. I've got 70 people in

55:54

there. You know, and I watched

55:54

it a month ago. So I'm really

55:57

like, grateful about that. It's

55:57

talking about, you know, to a

56:01

friend, and who kind of helps me

56:01

organize some of these things.

56:04

And she was like, yeah, man,

56:04

it's a credit to you like, it

56:06

means that you've been showing

56:06

up, you know, for a long time,

56:10

because all those 70 people like

56:10

social media is just not that

56:13

helpful anymore. You know, I

56:13

continue to do it, because I

56:16

don't know out of habit or just

56:16

obsession, or whatever. But all

56:20

but like, I think of those 70

56:20

people, 65, or people that have,

56:23

were part of my previous online

56:23

courses. And one of the things I

56:27

like about the most is there's

56:27

some people I'll never meet in

56:31

person, but like, we're still

56:31

connected, right. And then

56:34

there's other people that like,

56:34

meet each other through online.

56:37

And then there's other people

56:37

that practice online, that have

56:42

done multiple events with me,

56:42

and it's a way for them to stay

56:45

connected. And then there's

56:45

other people who have never been

56:47

to an event. But one day,

56:47

they're going to show up. And

56:50

it's going to be so cool when we

56:50

finally meet in person, right?

56:53

Yeah. So there's all those,

56:53

there's all those angles.

56:56

That's so cool. I was watching

56:56

some of the weather on the news

57:00

this morning. And they were

57:00

talking about this big storm

57:03

coming through, which you're

57:03

probably experiencing right now.

57:06

And they were you know, like,

57:06

everybody stay inside, stay

57:10

inside. Just because you know,

57:10

if it's bad weather and you're

57:13

traveling, you're sliding off

57:13

the road and making someone have

57:15

to come and pull you out. It's a

57:15

lot of work for everybody. So I

57:19

was just thinking like it just

57:19

another testament to how awesome

57:23

the online element is, for all

57:23

these different things, not just

57:27

a pandemic, but whether and

57:27

which does I don't want to go

57:32

down a dark path. But make me

57:32

think like, how interesting if

57:35

like, the world got so hard to

57:35

be in that you have to stay in a

57:40

bunker, a little bomb. But let's

57:40

not go there. I

57:43

mean, I think brings up a point

57:43

to what you're talking, what

57:46

you're pointing at is like

57:46

freedom. And you know, the same

57:51

things that bring you freedom

57:51

can put you in a prison, right?

57:53

So it's like the internet and

57:53

the Access to Online, it's, it

57:57

can be an incredible way to

57:57

access information and connect

58:00

and practice or it can be a

58:00

total time drain that inhibits

58:09

people's ability to be healthy

58:09

and happy. Yeah. And so it's

58:13

like, Man that, you know, I

58:13

think in times past, in some

58:17

ways, it was easier to be disciplined because there was less choice, right? It's like,

58:19

gotta get up and make a fire.

58:22

You know what I mean? You gotta

58:22

go get more of what you got to

58:25

take care of the animals, you gotta like, there's just no, you know, and then you come in at

58:27

the end of the day, and you just exhausted so you go to bed. You

58:29

know, it's like, I don't think

58:31

there were I don't think people

58:31

had insomnia, you know? Like,

58:35

right, it was just duplicate,

58:35

tired. You know, unless you were

58:38

like, just prepping for a battle

58:38

the next day, or, you know, or I

58:42

don't know, some overlord store

58:42

your wife. Terrible thing,

58:45

right? But like, you know, now

58:45

it's like this crisis of choice.

58:50

And so it's just so important

58:50

how we organize our time. And

58:55

also, you know, practice can

58:55

give you great freedom. And I

58:59

think that's why, you know, it's

58:59

so important to appreciate all

59:05

of the different ways to

59:05

practice, like, going to class

59:09

in a community is wonderful.

59:09

Having the ability to practice

59:14

on your own is wonderful. It's

59:14

all great. It's just like, do

59:20

you have the right tool for the

59:20

occasion? You know, for me, most

59:24

of my practice is solitary. You

59:24

know, practicing in a studio is

59:29

largely, you know, it's like, I

59:29

think about it like eating. You

59:34

know, one of the simplest things

59:34

people can do to be healthier is

59:37

just cook more, you know, and

59:37

there's eating for nourishment,

59:41

and there's eating for

59:41

recreation. And they do overlap

59:46

to some degree. But it's the

59:46

same with practice. It's like

59:50

there's practice for nourishment

59:50

and your core practice the

59:53

things that you're working on.

59:53

And there's practice for

59:55

recreation when I go take my

59:55

friends class in town, and I'm

59:59

just like, I'm really Like, I'm

59:59

not there to. It's not like I

1:00:02

don't even care what he's doing

1:00:02

in the class. You know, I used

1:00:06

to like, Man, there was a time

1:00:06

go to class and get so irritated

1:00:09

at what, what it was or what it

1:00:09

wasn't or whatever. And, you

1:00:12

know, it's like, you just, you

1:00:12

have to be, you have to

1:00:17

recognize that you put yourself

1:00:17

in the situation and chose to be

1:00:20

there. And, you know, if I, it's

1:00:20

like, that's the thing, you

1:00:26

know, I think people have to

1:00:26

understand also about going to

1:00:29

do different practices, it's

1:00:29

like, you're gonna do Bikram

1:00:32

yoga, just do Bikram yoga, and

1:00:32

don't be so upset that that's

1:00:35

what you're asked to do. If

1:00:35

you're going to a traditional

1:00:37

Ashtanga studio, like, that's

1:00:37

the thing, like you just that's

1:00:41

the thing, you know, that's the

1:00:41

thing, their meal, like, the

1:00:44

worst restaurant is the one that

1:00:44

offers you sushi and pizza. You

1:00:48

know what I mean? It's like,

1:00:48

what the fuck, right? Like,

1:00:51

let's just do it, you know. But

1:00:51

then, and then there's also

1:00:55

amazing studios that integrate

1:00:55

different elements together,

1:00:59

and, you know, pull it off, and

1:00:59

I don't believe here's the

1:01:03

thing, I don't believe that

1:01:03

everything has to be kept so

1:01:06

pure in order to be impactful. I

1:01:06

just believe that, as

1:01:11

practitioners and visitors in

1:01:11

other spaces, we do have some

1:01:15

degree of a responsibility to

1:01:15

respect the parameters in place

1:01:19

in those spaces when we visit

1:01:19

them, of course, with the caveat

1:01:23

that like, if someone is trying

1:01:23

to tell you to do something

1:01:25

that's going to hurt you or

1:01:25

whatever it's like, you know,

1:01:28

that's, you have the autonomy

1:01:28

to, to to self regulate. Oh,

1:01:33

man. And I like you have a great

1:01:35

motivational vibe, Benjamin, I,

1:01:39

I really, I've really enjoyed

1:01:39

it. I really enjoy listening to

1:01:44

it. I've I've thoroughly enjoyed

1:01:44

hearing everything you have to

1:01:48

say I really hope to get a

1:01:48

chance to meet you. I've never

1:01:52

been to Montana. And I it's

1:01:52

probably a bit of a joke that

1:01:57

when the Yellowstone series came

1:01:57

out that everybody moved there.

1:02:03

And then like you said, with

1:02:03

COVID, and everything else, but

1:02:05

I really want to go it looks so

1:02:05

beautiful from the scene or from

1:02:08

the video element of the

1:02:08

scenery. It looks spectacular.

1:02:11

It's it's majestic here. Yeah,

1:02:11

it's really special. Is there

1:02:16

in the essence or effort of

1:02:16

maintaining my appreciation for

1:02:21

you spending a whole hour with

1:02:21

us here? Is there anything that

1:02:24

you would like to add to this

1:02:24

wonderful selection of ideas

1:02:29

you've given us? Well, that was a good value to

1:02:31

tell you what I've got going on

1:02:34

coming up. So I appreciate that.

1:02:34

Yeah, I mean, the thing that I

1:02:38

have now perpetually running is

1:02:38

the online school. And so the

1:02:41

way that that works is there are

1:02:41

two live practices a week. One

1:02:44

is a 75 minute yoga practice,

1:02:44

you know, bend yoga, and one is

1:02:50

a 60 Minute mobility practice.

1:02:50

So the mobility practice is

1:02:54

really like just getting under

1:02:54

the hood, and making sure all

1:02:57

the connections are well sealed.

1:02:57

So and then people get delivered

1:03:02

a monthly mobility snack, which

1:03:02

is like a 10 minute focus on a

1:03:07

very one specific thing. You

1:03:07

know, so this month, we're

1:03:11

working on lumbar flexion.

1:03:11

Right, like rounding the lower

1:03:13

spine actively, which is, I

1:03:13

think, a really important thing

1:03:17

that oftentimes gets a little

1:03:17

bit ignored. Because if you're

1:03:21

going round the spine under

1:03:21

load, you're much safer in a lot

1:03:23

of scenarios. And it just makes

1:03:23

space down there. So it's

1:03:28

ironically that it makes you

1:03:28

better back then. And even

1:03:30

though you're not back bending.

1:03:30

And then the other What else do

1:03:34

I have going on? So I have a

1:03:34

retreat in Ibiza, Spain coming

1:03:37

up in the spring that I'm going

1:03:37

to launch publicly soon. I

1:03:43

always give the people who came

1:03:43

to the last event chance to book

1:03:46

first and they've taken up

1:03:46

almost all the spots. And then I

1:03:50

have workshops. This spring,

1:03:50

I'll be in New Mexico. I'll be

1:03:54

in Los Angeles. I'll be in

1:03:54

Dallas. And then I'll be in

1:03:59

Europe, for Paris and then Ibiza

1:03:59

and then this summer. Hopefully

1:04:05

by the end of the summer, I'll

1:04:05

have stopped running again at

1:04:07

Bozeman house, which is my space

1:04:07

but I'm also doing two retreats

1:04:11

out at a 10,000 acre ranch in

1:04:11

Paradise Valley, which is the

1:04:17

area where Yellowstone is

1:04:17

supposed to be the show. And

1:04:21

it's just the majestic spots.

1:04:21

I'm doing one retreat. That's a

1:04:23

collaboration with my handstand

1:04:23

coach. There's a guy called

1:04:26

Brazil, who's a old school

1:04:26

French handstand coach. He was a

1:04:29

director of Cirque du Soleil

1:04:29

like his resume is just insane.

1:04:33

So we we bring yoga and mobility

1:04:33

enhanced dating together. It's

1:04:36

really funny. We also have a

1:04:36

nice banter between us. I enjoy

1:04:40

hanging out with him. And then

1:04:40

the second retreat I'll do is

1:04:43

one of my favorites. I do it

1:04:43

every year. It's called Yoga

1:04:46

your mom can do and it's geared

1:04:46

towards a bit of an older crowd.

1:04:51

You know, and my mom comes every

1:04:51

year usually like a bunch of our

1:04:55

friends come and it just I

1:04:55

started that one because you

1:05:00

years ago, my mom started coming

1:05:00

on my retreats in France, and

1:05:02

she's a blast to have around.

1:05:02

And then like more of her

1:05:05

friends started coming. And then

1:05:05

it got to the point where I was

1:05:07

like, Okay, it's a little hard

1:05:07

to do like Gen pop, you know,

1:05:10

because like people should like,

1:05:10

all of a sudden, there's like

1:05:12

some 25 year old yogini, who

1:05:12

like, wants to, like sit on her

1:05:16

own head, you know what I mean?

1:05:16

And I'm teaching like, then the

1:05:20

rest of the room, like, half of

1:05:20

the room is like 70 years old.

1:05:24

So I want to, you know, and I'm

1:05:24

pretty good at kind of, like,

1:05:30

you know, adjusting on the fly

1:05:30

to whoever's there, but it's

1:05:33

really nice also to be able to

1:05:33

have this group of people,

1:05:37

because one of the things that's

1:05:37

so cool about that older group

1:05:39

is that while they might be a

1:05:39

little initially uncomfortable

1:05:43

or unsure in the practice space,

1:05:43

you get them around like the

1:05:46

dining table, and it's just

1:05:46

like, Yeah, it's like, the

1:05:49

gloves are off. It's great. That's so awesome. That's cool,

1:05:50

man. What a great mix. Dude,

1:05:54

you're like, you're going off,

1:05:54

you're going off.

1:06:02

The front facing optimism must

1:06:02

be maintained. But it's actually

1:06:07

been a really hard, really hard

1:06:07

year on a lot of fronts. So I

1:06:10

appreciate the positive feedback. I understand. Yeah, man. It's

1:06:11

all it's all in one big big

1:06:15

soup, isn't it? I mean, it's

1:06:15

not. I know, man. Dubois. This

1:06:20

has been incredible, super

1:06:20

thankful to carry Pearl for

1:06:23

introducing me to you and

1:06:23

opening the doorway to making

1:06:26

this podcast happen. And I look

1:06:26

forward to being in touch with

1:06:30

you traveling to visit and

1:06:30

practice. And this has just been

1:06:33

a real a real treat. Thank you

1:06:33

so much, Benjamin.

1:06:36

It's been great for me too, man.

1:06:36

I really appreciate the time and

1:06:39

thanks for inviting me on look

1:06:39

forward to connecting further.

1:06:42

Thank you. Thank you, thanks.

1:06:48

Native yoga podcast is produced

1:06:48

by myself. The theme music is

1:06:53

dreamed up by Bryce Allen. If

1:06:53

you liked this show, let me know

1:06:58

if there's room for improvement.

1:06:58

I want to hear that too. We are

1:07:02

curious to know what you think

1:07:02

and what you want more of what I

1:07:06

can improve. And if you have

1:07:06

ideas for future guests or

1:07:10

topics, please send us your

1:07:10

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1:07:15

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1:07:15

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1:07:20

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1:07:20

share it with your friends, rate

1:07:23

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