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All right, let's begin.

1:03

Well, yeah, all right. This is

1:03

Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is

1:09

Todd McLaughlin. Today my guest

1:09

is Marko Mikkila. Marko is in

1:14

Finland. He is a PhD student. He

1:14

is a yogi and a philosopher.

1:20

Let's begin. So happy to have

1:20

this opportunity to speak with

1:25

Marko Mikkila. And Marck, can

1:25

you tell me how you were feeling

1:30

today and you're in Finland? Can

1:30

you give me an idea of what the

1:36

weather is like for you today?

1:40

Well, today it's really sunny as

1:40

you maybe can see from the

1:43

reflection. The sun is straight

1:43

in front of me. I put I covered

1:49

the window with the curtain but

1:49

still it's shining really

1:52

brightly. So it's a beautiful

1:52

sunny day in in the winter

1:57

wonderland. Yeah. You said you got a fresh dumping

1:58

of snow as well, which you made

2:02

mention is is unusual for this

2:02

time in December.

2:06

Yeah. During the last years, it

2:06

hasn't been so common. When I

2:10

was a kid it was still common

2:10

that we had snow snow, snow

2:14

cover already in in November.

2:14

But now sometimes it it comes

2:19

only in January. But now we have

2:19

it already at the end of habit

2:23

already at the end of November.

2:23

So and that makes it a lot more

2:27

pleasant to endure these dark

2:27

months because then it's not so

2:32

dark simply when the when the

2:32

snow is reflecting the light.

2:37

Yeah. I recently had a chance to

2:38

interview Magnus Appelberg. I

2:41

have a feeling Magnus is

2:41

swimming today over there in

2:45

Finland. Is that something that

2:45

you could you could even

2:49

contemplate that, or is that

2:49

something that you would do?

2:54

Yeah, I haven't. I haven't tried

2:54

it. Well, Magnus. I guess that's

2:57

it every day, as far as I

2:57

understand. Yeah, I know all

3:00

these Finnish people that you

3:00

have interviewed because Finland

3:03

is very small. So we all know

3:03

each others. But yeah, I have.

3:09

We have a long tradition in

3:09

Finland of of winter swimming,

3:13

meaning that we go to sauna

3:13

which is by the sea or by the

3:17

lake, and we have made a hole in

3:17

the ice, and we go to sauna.

3:21

Then we dip in the water then we

3:21

go to the sauna. And it's really

3:24

an ecstatic feeling after the

3:24

dipping into ice cold water and

3:28

go go to the sauna. It's one of

3:28

the most it's one of the most

3:32

pleasant, comfortable feelings

3:32

you have can have in life. Yeah,

3:35

gosh, that's amazing. It sounds so

3:36

cool. Can you tell me my article

3:40

a little bit about your

3:40

background in yoga? How did you

3:44

first get interested in yoga

3:44

practice or yoga philosophy?

3:49

Yeah. Well, I first when I was

3:49

in my 20s, I started doing

3:56

Japanese martial arts, first

3:56

studied Japanese martial arts,

4:00

then Chinese martial arts. And

4:00

during that time, during those

4:03

10 years, I got also interested

4:03

in eastern philosophy, initially

4:08

like Taoism and, and Zen

4:08

Buddhism, so I dabbled a bit in

4:13

those first. And then when I was

4:13

doing these Chinese, Chinese

4:20

martial arts, I started more and

4:20

more concentrate on the so

4:25

called internal practices

4:25

because they usually divide

4:28

Chinese martial arts into

4:28

external and internal so I

4:31

started to do more more of these

4:31

so called internal like Tai Chi,

4:35

similar practices Qigong, and

4:35

started reading more and more

4:39

about philosophy about also some

4:39

New Age stuff, but then I

4:45

decided to try yoga. But first,

4:45

I actually did it from a book I

4:49

had this book on the five

4:49

Tibetan rites, which is like

4:54

deeper than yoga, and I did

4:54

those for a while in the

4:58

mornings, and they felt Good.

4:58

And then one friend of me friend

5:03

of mine asked in 2001 that would

5:03

I like to join him and go to

5:10

Ashtanga Yoga beginners course,

5:10

like a weekend beginners course.

5:14

And I said, Okay, I can I can

5:14

join you. And I went there. And

5:20

on the first evening, I felt

5:20

very good in my body. So that's

5:24

why I decided to experiment a

5:24

bit more with with yoga. Yeah.

5:30

Nice. And did you continue down

5:30

the Ashtanga track? Or?

5:35

Yeah, first it was that. So I

5:35

started doing like the Ashtanga

5:41

practice first, like three or

5:41

four times a week as a side gig

5:46

to the martial arts practices

5:46

that I was doing. But then after

5:50

half a year of doing it, I felt

5:50

like something is shifting in me

5:55

that I wanted more or to

5:55

experience experiment more with,

6:00

and I ski, I decided to stop the

6:00

martial arts and only start

6:07

doing the Ashtanga practice in

6:07

the mornings, six days a week

6:13

like it's prescribed. Yes. And

6:13

then a few years later, I

6:20

started teaching it. And at one

6:20

point, I was running my own

6:26

studio, or I own the studio with

6:26

two other people. So we were

6:30

running it together a studio

6:30

into Rico, which is down on the

6:35

west coast of Finland, but now

6:35

now I live in Helsinki,

6:39

Ghana. How many years did you

6:39

have your studio? Is it tool

6:44

toward cool? So he said, Yeah. Yeah.

6:48

How long did you have? Around 15 years? Wow. Yeah,

6:54

yes. That's a solid. That's a

6:54

solid stent. Good job. And then

6:59

we Oh, no, no, sorry. I think I a bit

7:00

less because then I moved to in

7:04

seven to 18. I moved to Helsinki

7:04

in 2018. So maybe I had my own

7:13

studio only a bit more than 10

7:13

years. But then when I moved to

7:16

Helsinki, I continued teaching

7:16

professionally, but I was

7:19

working for other other studios.

7:19

So yeah, I thought Ashtanga Yoga

7:24

professionally, about 15 years,

7:24

but I was running my own studio

7:26

only like a bit more than 10

7:26

years. Yeah,

7:29

I understand. Amazing. Are Do

7:29

you still practice daily

7:35

Ashtanga? Has your yoga and

7:35

meditation practices changed,

7:40

shifted or evolved? Yeah, I don't, I don't do the

7:42

Ashtanga practice as such

7:46

anymore. I used to go to Mysore

7:46

for 12 years, annually. And I

7:52

was in the part of the part of

7:52

the subculture of those people

7:58

who go to India annually. Yes.

7:58

And, but then, at some point, I

8:05

realized that doing the thing of

8:05

practice sh as its prescribed,

8:10

something about it is not

8:10

working for me anymore. And and

8:15

I realized, like hindsight that

8:15

that has been the case already

8:18

for years. But when you're doing

8:18

it for your living as you're

8:21

living, and you're part of this,

8:21

like subculture, it's not always

8:25

so easy to realize these kinds

8:25

of things that maybe this is

8:28

actually not working for me

8:28

anywhere more and, and how I

8:33

realized this gift or noticed

8:33

that was that the practice, as

8:38

such was creating too much like

8:38

Rajat rajasic energy or invest

8:44

in terms it was like agitating

8:44

my nervous system. Often, I

8:50

really felt it quite palpably

8:50

after the practice is that this

8:55

is not really working for it for

8:55

me anymore. And then I started

8:59

trying other things like I for

8:59

example, try this. There's this

9:06

tantric yoga tradition, not like

9:06

Neo tube, I want to right away

9:11

make make a make a distinction

9:11

between so called Neo Tantra and

9:15

classical Tantra, and this this

9:15

come from classical Tantra.

9:22

There's this quite popular yoga

9:22

brand brand in Finland called

9:26

Shakti yoga. I don't know how

9:26

big it is in other places, or do

9:30

you have at all in USA, but I

9:30

they had like this offer that

9:37

bought for 27 euros, you could

9:37

go to their classes for two

9:41

weeks. unlimitedly so i That was

9:41

the first COVID summer so I

9:45

think it was summer 20. So I

9:45

decided to try them and in that

9:50

they, they they also have set

9:50

sequences, but they always after

9:55

one to five poses. They do a

9:55

Round 10 breath resting pose in

10:04

between. And for me, it just

10:04

felt really good these resting

10:08

pauses in between. I was like,

10:08

Wow, this feels good. And then I

10:11

started experimenting with

10:11

Ashtanga that, that I did my

10:14

normal practice. After one to

10:14

five poses i did some kind of

10:20

resting pose, either laying down

10:20

or just squatting down or any

10:26

any play any any pose where you

10:26

can really relax. And so like to

10:31

took the edge of the practice in

10:31

the in the sense that which has,

10:36

I mean, the edge that had been

10:36

creating this nervous agitated

10:40

agitation that I didn't

10:40

appreciate so much. So it seemed

10:44

to work for me to start doing

10:44

those resting poses. And, yeah,

10:50

yeah, so I stopped at that

10:50

point, that's all like stops

10:53

doing the prescribed Ashtanga

10:53

practice. And then I got to know

10:58

this guy called Jani yard in and

10:58

who is this is actually

11:04

originally a student of Jana,

11:04

who you interviewed. He is this

11:09

extreme Astra guy. And he

11:09

teaches a bit similar sequence

11:13

to Ashtanga practice. But there

11:13

you can. First of all, you

11:19

always do every angle, it like

11:19

in everything we do in primary

11:25

series is mainly mainly for the

11:25

Vamps, I mean, in the second

11:29

series, intermediate series,

11:29

it's a lots of back bends and

11:32

hip openers. But in this

11:32

practice that this yummy was

11:37

teaching, we did always like are

11:37

we do always like forward bend,

11:42

side bend, twist, extension of

11:42

the spine and back bend the

11:47

first standing up and then

11:47

associated poster and but we

11:53

move in the same way with the

11:53

flow of the vinyasa with the

11:56

flow of the breath. So we move

11:56

in this similar in a similar

11:59

manner as in Ashtanga, and that

11:59

seemed to work for me better. So

12:02

it doesn't create when I do it,

12:02

like this way so that I do every

12:05

every angle and every direction

12:05

in every every practice, it

12:12

doesn't create this nervous

12:12

agitation in me. So that's how

12:16

I've been mainly practicing for

12:16

the last two, three years. Yeah,

12:21

very cool. Well, first of all, I love that

12:22

you dedicated so much time every

12:27

year, you went every year to

12:27

India, it sounds like for, yeah,

12:31

10 to 12 months, sometimes only for one

12:33

month. Yeah. And that's

12:36

a serious commitment. That takes

12:36

a lot of commitment. And then

12:40

you know, but sometimes it's

12:40

even harder to evolve and shift

12:44

and change once having set such

12:44

a solid pattern. So I love

12:48

hearing that you, you know,

12:48

we're open to exploring and that

12:53

you've kind of done, you've

12:53

practiced research, you've

12:56

researched to figure out what

12:56

actually works for me. Amazing,

13:01

highly recommended. Yes,

13:03

yeah, it is highly recommended.

13:03

And also, what also affected me

13:08

was that I was all the time also

13:08

researching, like the history of

13:12

yoga, how it has been really

13:12

practiced in the pre modern

13:16

times. And the concept of, for

13:16

whom and when it's really

13:22

central in pre modern yoga,

13:22

meaning that the, the practice

13:30

is supposed to be always altered

13:30

according to the situation of

13:34

the person, the practice, you

13:34

know, what kind of face of life

13:43

you're going through what what

13:43

kind of stage of life you're

13:46

going through, because any

13:46

single practice, whichever

13:51

practice you take, it's not

13:51

going to work for everybody in

13:55

every, in every stage of their

13:55

lives. All the practices only

14:01

work for certain people at a

14:01

certain stage. And no practice

14:05

should be done in the same way

14:05

throughout your whole life.

14:09

That's how I have understood it

14:09

from from the pre modern yoga

14:12

practice. So it was always

14:12

altered according to the

14:14

situation. And you have so I

14:14

also adopted this like idea that

14:20

you have to be always open to

14:20

change your practice, not in the

14:24

way that you always go with

14:24

every whim. But you have to

14:27

really feel into yourself and

14:27

really feel is this practice

14:32

really working for me in the way

14:32

I want. So nowadays, I actually

14:36

like saying about the Ashtanga

14:36

practice that the first 10

14:39

years, I think it was more

14:39

beneficial than harmful, but the

14:43

last 10 years, I would say that

14:43

it was more harmful than

14:45

beneficial for me. Yes. I understand fully. I

14:48

understand. And I appreciate you

14:54

bringing it into the vocal

14:54

sphere. Can Can you tell me as

14:58

well Marco, what you're

14:58

academia, history is and or

15:03

where you are currently landing

15:03

and your journey with academia.

15:08

Yeah, well, I'm a PhD student in

15:08

in Turku University. In the

15:13

University of the town where I

15:13

used to live. I've been a PhD

15:17

student now for around five

15:17

years, I have done all the other

15:23

PhD student of philosophy, so

15:23

like, mainly Western philosophy,

15:27

but I tried to bring ideas from

15:27

the east into the work that I

15:31

do. So I like to try to combine

15:31

Western and Eastern and

15:35

especially Indian ideas. So I

15:35

have done all the other other

15:43

studies for my PhD apart from

15:43

the from the work that sort of

15:50

like the monograph itself. So I

15:50

should write a monograph a book

15:55

on something that I haven't done

15:55

yet. And I'm applying for

15:58

funding around eight times a

15:58

years, eight times a year. And

16:03

probably until I find funding, I

16:03

probably will not really start

16:07

writing the book, because at the

16:07

moment, I work a normal full

16:11

time job. So I don't really have

16:11

time to fly. I tried to read

16:15

something on the topic all the

16:15

time, but I don't really have

16:17

the time to seriously

16:17

investigate stuff at the moment.

16:22

Wow. Can you tell me what your day

16:23

job is?

16:27

At the moment, for the last one

16:27

and a half years, I've been

16:31

working at the refugee center as

16:31

a social counselor. So when,

16:36

when the Ukraine start, Ukraine

16:36

war started, lots of Ukrainian

16:41

refugees came to Finland, and

16:41

they had to open the Finnish

16:45

immigration office had to open

16:45

lots of new refugee centres. And

16:49

so they needed more stuff. So I

16:49

started also working in that

16:52

field in wanta, which is where

16:52

we have the International

16:56

Airport. Oh, my gosh, what is that, like?

16:57

That's got to be fairly

17:00

challenging in terms of the

17:00

heartbreaking element of anytime

17:03

people are forced to leave their

17:03

home. Yeah, imagine you

17:07

encounter you're encountering a

17:07

fair amount of stress and

17:11

nervousness about the future.

17:11

Can you tell me a little bit

17:14

about what that experience is

17:14

like for you working in that

17:17

environment? Yeah, it is, of course,

17:20

interesting, when you also have

17:24

this yoga background, and you

17:24

tried to sort of like, bring

17:29

yoga into everyday life. So it's

17:29

a very intense sense. It's a

17:33

it's a fruitful place to work,

17:33

because you meet people all the

17:37

time, who are in dire

17:37

situations, and try to meet them

17:43

on their level. And so like,

17:43

see, the see that they are

17:53

exactly like I am deep down,

17:53

although I have been a bit more

17:58

lucky in life, meaning that I

17:58

don't have to live in a war

18:01

area. Yes. At least not yet. In

18:01

this life? Yeah.

18:06

Not yet. Well, actually on that.

18:06

No, I mean, I want to be very

18:09

respectful of your ideals and

18:09

and thoughts around this. But

18:15

Finland obviously is very close

18:15

to Russia. Do what is the

18:19

general feeling for you and or

18:19

for your other friends in

18:25

Finland regarding the current

18:25

war in Ukraine?

18:30

Well, I think that's it has.

18:30

People have had lots of like

18:37

mental stress because because of

18:37

it, because, for example, I also

18:40

have grandparents who really

18:40

were in the war, during the

18:45

Second World War. And we had a

18:45

war with, with Russia. So for

18:49

example, my own grandfather was

18:49

war captive, and in a Russian

18:56

concentration or Soviet

18:56

concentration camp, oh, my God

18:59

during the war. So these, of

18:59

course, these things, although I

19:04

haven't experienced them, but

19:04

somehow, genetically, like when

19:10

you think of epigenetics, you

19:10

you do inherit harsh experiences

19:16

from your parents and from your

19:16

grandparents. So I probably also

19:21

have inherited some of his

19:21

experiences from the

19:24

concentration camp in some way,

19:24

so many, many people in Finland

19:28

have really had lots of mental

19:28

stress because of the this

19:32

because many of us has

19:32

grandparents who were really in

19:35

the war. So and there were so

19:35

many similarities with the

19:38

Ukraine war and the finish war

19:38

with Soviet in the 40s. Yeah,

19:43

man. Very interesting. And I love

19:45

that the thought of that the

19:48

epigenetics, epigenetics when I

19:48

when I think about my own family

19:52

bloodline, it you're right, it's

19:52

interesting, and you did bring

19:56

up the word, you know, the

19:56

trauma and war, you know, like

20:00

Keven if you don't realize why

20:00

you might be being triggered.

20:04

But you know, having listened to

20:04

your grandfather and stories and

20:06

like you said, even if it may be

20:06

perhaps you've never even had

20:09

contact with your grandfather,

20:09

that you could potentially still

20:13

feel that through that

20:13

experience. And then you made

20:19

mention that when we spoke

20:19

before we started this

20:21

conversation that one of the

20:21

ideas that you would potentially

20:27

seek funding for in writing your

20:27

book for your PhD is around the

20:34

realm of something that you call

20:34

the non dual movement, and which

20:38

Yeah, I immediately thought like

20:38

Vedantic philosophy and non

20:42

dualism there. Can you tell me a

20:42

little bit of what what this is

20:46

what the non dual movement is?

20:50

Yeah. Okay, so, there has been

20:50

different types of non dual

20:59

religious philosophies around

20:59

the world. Since, at least since

21:07

the opening shots. So, the most

21:07

famous against as Advaita,

21:13

Vedanta Advaita, itself, meaning

21:13

non dual, but then there is also

21:18

for example, the philosophy that

21:18

I have been involved with

21:23

lately, the most is the so

21:23

called a tantric Advaita

21:29

movement or tantric tantric,

21:29

classical tantric Advaita

21:33

Shaivism, which is also non dual

21:33

philosophy, but then also many

21:39

strands of Buddhism are non

21:39

dual, per se.

21:48

And, I guess, also some Muslims,

21:48

maybe Sufis, I don't know the

21:51

Sufism. So well, but I, I

21:51

understand that they also are

21:55

more or less like non dual, I

21:55

know, I guess also some, at

22:01

least Christian mystics, they

22:01

have a non dual view of the

22:06

world and of the life. So non

22:06

dual, as such means just, or the

22:12

word and divide that means not

22:12

to. So, it can come out in many

22:17

ways. That either that you think

22:17

that everything is made of one

22:24

stuff. And usually in India, the

22:24

thought is that everything is

22:28

actually consciousness, so that

22:28

there is no matter, matter

22:31

doesn't even exist, but of

22:31

course, we experience we

22:34

experience something that we

22:34

call matter, but there is no

22:37

such thing as matter independent

22:37

from consciousness. So that's

22:41

one way of defining what like

22:41

non dual idealism would be

22:48

meaning idealism that a so

22:48

called consciousness only view,

22:53

that there is only consciousness

22:53

at the end of the day, because

22:56

all we can experience is

22:56

consciousness, because we, by

22:59

definition, cannot ever

22:59

experience anything outside of

23:02

our consciousness, but we also

23:02

like locked in South Side our

23:06

conscious bubble, so to speak.

23:06

But then also it can be analyzed

23:11

the word non dual, in terms of

23:11

subject object is that you can

23:16

experience the subject and

23:16

object so like merging together

23:22

or they're not being a subject

23:22

observing objects, but there is

23:26

just perceiving happening, there

23:26

is just seeing happening,

23:30

hearing happening, smelling

23:30

happening, feeling happening,

23:34

sensing happening, but there is

23:34

not actually a subject, hearing

23:38

or sensing a object. So that's

23:38

like one way to analyze or

23:44

define what non dual experience

23:44

would mean. However, there's

23:54

also in India especially the

23:54

select, one way to talk about

23:59

non dualism is to talk about

23:59

human beings or the jivas or

24:05

individual souls, so to speak,

24:05

individual soul, in the video

24:09

souls relation to God or the

24:09

almighty or the Supreme Being.

24:14

So either there is there is

24:14

dualistic views, where, where

24:20

there is a supreme being that is

24:20

separate from you, then then you

24:24

have some like a dualistic

24:24

theological view, but then you

24:27

can also in non dualism, it's

24:27

more like that there is no

24:34

separate Supreme Being but we

24:34

are ourselves flux fluctuations

24:41

inside the Supreme Being. So

24:41

that's also one way to talk

24:45

about non non dual, non dual non

24:45

duality so you can talk about it

24:49

in terms of like metaphysics,

24:49

that there's only one thing and

24:52

consciousness or the collapsing

24:52

of the subject object.

24:58

Separation or like in terms of

24:58

your relation to a Supreme

25:04

Being? Yeah. So, okay, so that's

25:04

the background. That's the

25:08

background. So these kinds of

25:08

views have always been, or not

25:11

always. But as long as at least

25:11

as long as there's there has

25:14

been like, written history,

25:14

there has been these kinds of

25:18

use in the world. But then, in

25:18

the 20th century, there were

25:24

some Indian teachers, of whom I

25:24

guess the most famous is Ramana

25:29

Maharshi. Who started like this

25:29

way of teaching that he started

25:36

just teaching people by just

25:36

sitting in their presence,

25:40

sometimes just in silence, and

25:40

sometimes answering their

25:44

questions. So teaching by

25:44

dialogue, and this Ramana

25:48

Maharshi guy, he had experienced

25:48

this, like non dual awakening.

25:53

So he didn't experience himself

25:53

as a separate being separate

25:58

self anymore. And then, often

25:58

people had awakening experiences

26:05

just by sitting in his presence.

26:05

And then some of his students

26:09

started teaching. And that

26:09

created this so called non dual

26:12

enrollment, which is nowadays

26:12

very, whilst in, for example,

26:18

the YouTube there are many, many

26:18

so called non dual teachers in

26:21

the YouTube, some of them are

26:21

very popular and famous. Some of

26:25

them are not, I guess the most

26:25

famous non dual teacher would be

26:27

a khatola. He's also non dual

26:27

teacher, so he's the most famous

26:30

one. But there are others like

26:30

Rupert spyera idea Shanti. Yeah,

26:38

do you do you remember the first

26:38

time you recognized non dual

26:46

philosophy? In your own

26:46

experience, having grown up in

26:49

Finland and traveling to India?

26:49

Did you have an aha moment? Or

26:55

did you hear perhaps like about

26:55

this idea? And then maybe upon

27:01

traveling to India had some sort

27:01

of demonstration of somebody

27:06

living according to the non dual

27:06

philosophy that your mind kind

27:11

of open to? Oh my gosh, that's a

27:11

whole nother way of looking at

27:14

the world. Yeah, I think it has been

27:16

gradual guests. First, it was

27:19

just reading about it. And then

27:19

when you were contemplating

27:23

different worldviews, for me, it

27:23

was just always the most

27:28

appealing was different versions

27:28

of non duality. So first, I got

27:32

to know Advaita Vedanta maybe.

27:32

Or initially, maybe it was Zen

27:37

Buddhism and then Advaita

27:37

Vedanta, and then later on this

27:42

classical, non dual Tantra

27:42

tantric view. Advaita Shaivism.

27:48

First, it was just studying

27:48

about it, and it just was the

27:51

most compelling worldview. And

27:51

then you started doing the or I

27:57

started doing the practices that

27:57

were written recommend that in

28:02

those circles or in those

28:02

philosophies, which are often

28:08

practices like self inquiry, you

28:08

try to inquire into your own

28:12

nature yourself that what am I

28:12

really what is it that I'm

28:16

really the deep, deepest,

28:16

deepest down? What is my essence

28:22

and then it can be just sitting,

28:22

that's one practice just being

28:26

aware of being aware, being

28:26

aware of awareness as such, and

28:32

when you do these kinds of

28:32

things long enough or often

28:37

enough, then you might stumble

28:37

on the realisation that actually

28:41

this is all there is, at least

28:41

in my experience. And of course,

28:49

there are often people have

28:49

slight mystical experiences with

28:54

these with these but the

28:54

mystical experiences themselves

28:57

they are not ever like the

28:57

important events, but like the

29:05

ultimate realization would be

29:05

the way I would describe it.

29:11

It's like a non phenomena are a

29:11

recognition of your, of your, of

29:17

your own nature. So it's like a

29:17

paradigm shift in how you

29:21

experience experience life.

29:21

Meaning that

29:34

you try to be as often as

29:34

possible in in a state where you

29:39

don't conceptualize things, but

29:39

rather you just experience life

29:44

without mental blabber just as a

29:44

as a seamless whole, so to

29:50

speak. So, everything in your

29:50

experience be being a seamless

29:55

whole is one way to define non

29:55

duality. There are no There are

30:01

no borders between you and the

30:01

world, so to speak.

30:10

How so you've had an experience

30:10

of teaching yoga in relation to

30:16

here is a sequence of Asana. And

30:16

in the in the realm of teaching

30:22

a yoga class and or that's,

30:22

that's an Hatha Yoga base class

30:25

where you're practicing posture,

30:25

you know, you can learn

30:28

something, and then you can show

30:28

somebody something. And it's, I

30:32

don't want to say it's easy. But

30:32

there's a structure that if you

30:36

know what you're doing, it's not

30:36

hard to teach, if you know what

30:39

you're doing something like non

30:39

dual perspective, how do you

30:47

teach that? Apart from what

30:47

we're doing right now? And I

30:50

think obviously, like when you

30:50

mentioned Ramana, Maharshi, and

30:53

his ability to just sit in the

30:53

company of his students, and

30:56

like you said, either practice

30:56

silence or maybe answer

30:59

questions, but it was through

30:59

this dialogue process, which you

31:03

said, you also had done a lot of

31:03

studying and Western philosophy

31:07

such as like Socratic thinking,

31:07

I'm guessing you've dealt you've

31:10

dove into Socrates. And and

31:10

there's this idea of through

31:14

dialogue, that we can arrive at

31:14

a place where there's

31:19

understanding. But can you

31:19

answer I'm curious how this to

31:24

me sounds like it would be a

31:24

little more nuanced in educating

31:28

or teaching about, what type of

31:28

skills do you formulate in the

31:35

process of if you had this goal

31:35

of I want to teach a student

31:39

about non dualism? Yeah, well, it's often it's

31:43

about giving like verbal

31:47

pointers. Of course, you can

31:47

talk about the philosophy, per

31:53

se, that's one way to teach.

31:53

Initially, it talks about the

31:57

philosophy that this is a

31:57

worldview that in non duality,

32:02

people believe in, so you either

32:02

buy it, or you don't buy it, or

32:06

you investigate it, or you don't

32:06

investigate it, but if it

32:09

appeals to you, then you invest,

32:09

investigate it. And then if you

32:13

sit with people who have had,

32:13

like the personal non phenomenal

32:19

recognition or realization, of

32:19

their, of their like, essence,

32:24

nature, then they can from their

32:24

own experience game like

32:29

wearable pointers, which would

32:29

be like, like, for example, one

32:34

some one of the most simple one

32:34

is just asking, Are you aware?

32:40

If I asked you, are you aware?

32:40

What is your answer? Yes, yes,

32:49

yeah. That's what everybody

32:49

would answer. If they understood

32:55

the question, they first pause

32:55

for a while. And then they say,

32:58

Yes, I am aware then

33:06

I think I am. No,

33:09

you don't think you are? You

33:09

are? You know, you are? Because

33:11

otherwise you wouldn't hear my

33:11

voice. You weren't aware? Yes,

33:15

you feel your body. If you

33:15

weren't aware, you wouldn't see

33:19

this computer if you want to

33:19

wear Yes. Because all the

33:23

perceptions can happen only

33:23

within awareness. But then you

33:31

might start like, identifying

33:31

more and more just being the

33:38

awareness, like the perceiver.

33:38

That's which perceives, and one

33:42

way to start, like recognizing

33:42

it as such is that you, you

33:48

define it as it is something

33:48

that doesn't change, it doesn't

33:52

alter, it's just always there in

33:52

your own. In your own

33:56

experience. It's always there.

33:56

There's one thing that is

33:59

constant in your experience or

33:59

any conscious beings,

34:02

experience, there is awareness,

34:02

you're conscious, there is

34:06

consciousness. So that doesn't

34:06

change. But everything else

34:12

changes like we often hear this.

34:12

This maxim that change is the

34:19

only constant. And that refers

34:19

to the phenomenal world, that in

34:24

the fundamental world,

34:24

everything is always changing

34:27

and nothing ever can stay, the

34:27

change can stay the same. But

34:33

from your experience, from your

34:33

point of view, from your vantage

34:37

point, there is something there,

34:37

which we can call awareness for

34:42

the lack of a better term or

34:42

consciousness for the lack of a

34:44

better term. There is something

34:44

there that is being aware or

34:51

like testifying the existence of

34:51

all the changes that are

34:57

happening all the time. Yes.

35:01

That makes perfect sense. And I,

35:01

I, I guess one question that

35:05

does pop into my head. And you

35:05

might have had some experience

35:08

with this. I'd like to ask, um,

35:08

I have a had a close relative

35:13

that had Alzheimer's. Yeah. And

35:13

the experience of watching that

35:21

process. Yeah, I really got this

35:21

feeling of the fragility of the

35:26

mind, like when the mind like

35:26

what you're speaking of where I

35:31

am aware? And like you said, you

35:31

answered, yeah, you are. When I

35:37

when I second guess it. And I

35:37

can conceptualize that. And what

35:40

I noticed with Alzheimer's is

35:40

there was this, that wasn't

35:44

there wasn't that clarity, of

35:44

awareness or self awareness?

35:49

Even? And what do you I guess I

35:49

know, we can say it's a disease,

35:54

like a synaptic synaptic issue.

35:54

Yeah. But what have you

35:59

encountered with this in

35:59

relation to your thoughts about

36:02

because I, you know, sometimes

36:02

I, I've come across this idea

36:05

that say, in India, that there's

36:05

a very fine line, this is just

36:08

an India a very fine line

36:08

between spiritual awakening and

36:12

madness, you know, where there's

36:12

this like, enlightenment

36:17

element, but then, if you if we

36:17

were investigated, we might go

36:21

somewhere, and they might say, you have some sort of psychiatric disorder, we need to

36:22

lock you up, you know, I don't

36:26

know. What what do you what do

36:26

you think in relation to what

36:29

we're talking about with non

36:29

dualism will mean investigate

36:32

these transitions of the mind

36:32

through the aging process?

36:36

Yeah. My actually, my only

36:36

living grandparent actually also

36:43

at the moment happens to have

36:43

Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's. So

36:46

some personal experience,

36:49

you have you have seen and felt

36:49

it, yes, yeah, I

36:52

have also seen it seen it

36:52

happening. But first of all, we

36:56

have to make the distinction

36:56

between awareness and mind, like

37:01

it always has been made in

37:01

India. So in in European in

37:04

European philosophy, it's not

37:04

always clear that awareness or

37:08

consciousness as such, is

37:08

different from mind. But like in

37:12

yoga philosophy, or Indian

37:12

philosophy, mainly, there's a

37:17

clear distinction between

37:17

awareness and mind. So mind is

37:21

part of the phenomenal world. So

37:21

in mind, everything is also

37:25

always changing, meaning also

37:25

that you might go through the

37:29

seasons of the mind, and the

37:29

mind starts, for example,

37:32

falling apart. But even then, I

37:32

would claim that even if you

37:38

have Alzheimers, there is a

37:38

presence of awareness, always,

37:43

but they cannot necessarily

37:43

verbalize it, they cannot

37:46

necessarily talk about it. But

37:46

there is because one, one way to

37:52

also define awareness as such,

37:52

is that you have some kind of

37:56

experience always, when you have

37:56

some kind of experience any kind

37:59

of experience, however subtle or

37:59

gross, you have awareness, to

38:06

also I would claim that a person

38:06

with an Alzheimer, they have

38:11

also awareness all the time, but

38:11

they cannot necessarily talk

38:15

about it. They don't necessarily

38:15

have memory. So they have a like

38:20

a momentary awareness all the

38:20

time, but they don't necessarily

38:24

know what happened five minutes

38:24

ago, but they have awareness

38:28

now. Now. Now, now, now, what

38:28

they don't necessarily remember

38:32

this now anymore, but they all

38:32

this so that you could visualize

38:38

it as a as a string of pearls.

38:38

And every Pearl would be like

38:43

your now moment. And so there is

38:43

always awareness in every

38:47

moment, but you don't

38:47

necessarily remember the

38:51

previous moments. Cancer. But

38:51

that's, that's from the Yeah,

38:56

from the perspective of

38:56

outsiders, but then again, when

39:02

you raised up this question of

39:02

that, sometimes there's a fine

39:06

line between madness and

39:06

enlightenment, so to speak.

39:15

Well, here we have to also make

39:15

the distinctions between between

39:20

mystical experiences and an

39:20

awakening or liberation. I

39:25

myself don't usually use the

39:25

word enlightenment because it's

39:29

a Western term and none of the

39:29

Indian terms that were used

39:33

about this awakening or

39:33

liberation, they cannot really

39:36

be translated by by the word

39:36

enlightenment. So I'm going to

39:43

talk now with the terms of

39:43

awakening and liberation. So on

39:49

the way to, to awakening and

39:49

after having your first

39:55

awakening experiences that the

39:55

awakenings heiresses can always

40:01

deepen and deepen and deepen,

40:01

maybe, maybe, like infinitely

40:06

deepen and deepen and deepen.

40:06

And during those you can have

40:09

always like, different types of

40:09

mystical experiences during the

40:13

summer. Some people are like

40:13

prone to have mystical

40:16

experiences some people have,

40:16

the more, some people don't ever

40:20

have mystical experiences, but

40:20

they still can wake and, and

40:23

it's these mystical experiences

40:23

that are often bordering with

40:28

some kind of madness, especially

40:28

if the person doesn't have like

40:34

a dozen doesn't have like a

40:34

framework where to put like a

40:41

philosophical framework where to

40:41

put these mystical experiences,

40:44

then it can go even into

40:44

schizophrenia or something like

40:47

that. But if you have the

40:47

philosophical framework, you

40:51

then can understand that okay,

40:51

these are just mystical

40:54

experiences, and they also

40:54

always will change. So no, there

40:59

is no, not any experience that

40:59

we can have that is constant,

41:04

but every experience as such, is

41:04

is changing. And also mystical

41:07

experiences, they come and go

41:07

come and go, just like all the

41:10

other mundane experiences like

41:10

me being hungry, and they may

41:15

tell me not being hungry, me

41:15

being sleepy, and me being

41:18

sleepy, me seeing some specific

41:18

color, and then not seeing

41:22

specific color anymore.

41:25

And it's really interesting,

41:25

that that puts the mystical

41:28

experience into the realm of the

41:28

material, almost like the

41:32

phenomenal world that is

41:32

constantly changing. Yeah, yeah.

41:37

Interesting. That's a really

41:37

good distinction right there. I

41:40

liked that. You also brought up

41:40

that if you have it,

41:43

philosophical framework from

41:43

which to then filter and or

41:48

process or maybe maybe make

41:48

sense of what just happened. So

41:55

then, obviously, you're a big

41:55

fan of how important n n is

42:00

probably very obvious statement

42:00

of how important philosophy is.

42:04

Yeah, yeah. But one of the

42:04

functions of philosophy is to,

42:11

first of all, give you like, a

42:11

goal of what to why you are

42:16

practicing for. So they give you

42:16

set these goals, so to speak,

42:20

but they also give you

42:20

understanding, because when you

42:22

do, for example, yoga or

42:22

meditate, meditation practices,

42:27

like potentially the yoga sutra,

42:27

and the third, third chapter of

42:30

potentialities, yoga sutra, he

42:30

talks a lot about these

42:34

different types of samyama

42:34

experiences, different kinds of

42:38

mystical experiences, or

42:38

psychological kind of

42:41

psychological experiences that

42:41

you can have. And if you don't

42:44

have like, the understanding

42:44

that these kinds of things can

42:47

happen, then you can really

42:47

freak out if something all of a

42:50

sudden happens to you that the

42:50

Western materialistic science

42:54

cannot explain to you. So it is.

42:54

I think, also, that's the reason

42:59

why potentially spend so much

42:59

time with with these experiences

43:04

in the third, third chapter,

43:04

because he wants to warn people

43:08

that these kinds of things can

43:08

happen, not necessarily, but

43:10

these kinds of things can

43:10

happen. So be aware.

43:13

Interesting. Yeah. You made

43:13

mention that you can almost

43:18

classify, some folks, some

43:18

people are a little more prone

43:24

toward being having a mystical

43:24

experience. And some of us are

43:28

not prone, although we can have

43:28

still in awakening, regardless

43:34

of whether we're prone or not.

43:34

And I know it's a little taboo

43:38

to even talk about this, I

43:38

guess, I don't know if it's

43:41

taboo or not. Maybe it is. Do

43:41

you have mystical experiences?

43:46

Are you prone to the mystical

43:46

experience? Or do you often

43:52

watch people go oh, my wonder

43:52

wonder why they're, I've never

43:55

had that interesting, you know,

43:55

like, what would you put

43:58

yourself? Well, I'm not especially prone,

44:00

but I haven't have had some

44:04

subtle experience because

44:04

mystical experiences that they

44:07

can be really like really like.

44:07

World altering a worldview

44:14

altering just in one go a bit

44:14

like, like, for example, when

44:18

you're, if you would be under

44:18

like a psychedelic, they can

44:23

often alter your worldview in

44:23

one go. And that's also mystical

44:26

experiences experience that you

44:26

have under a psychedelic under

44:30

the influence of a psychedelic,

44:30

but then there are also more

44:34

subtle and more common, more

44:34

normal, mystical experience that

44:38

almost everybody has, like, for

44:38

example, we sometimes are, it's

44:44

really common that people for

44:44

example, when the phone rings

44:47

that people know who is calling

44:47

before they look at the phone,

44:51

that's also a mystical

44:51

experience, because there's some

44:53

kind of telepathic connection

44:53

then with that person. So these

44:58

kinds of experiences are really

44:58

cool. On yes or no in sometimes

45:04

in advance something that

45:04

something is going to happen so

45:07

called pre cognition that you

45:07

know in advance or you feel it

45:10

in your body in advance that

45:10

something is going to happen

45:15

that's also a mystical

45:15

experience. Or, for example, one

45:21

of my most memorable experiences

45:21

that I would call a mystical

45:25

experience is when I went to

45:25

Rishikesh for the first time in

45:29

my life, I had already gone to

45:29

Mysore many times but then it

45:33

was maybe my sixth or seventh

45:33

travel to India, I decided,

45:38

okay, let's explore a bit The

45:38

North also and I went with a

45:42

friend to Rishikesh, we first

45:42

landed in Delhi, and then took a

45:47

cab drive to Rishikesh. And then

45:47

we saw the Ganga River, the

45:52

river Ganges for the first time.

45:52

And, and we went, and I had

45:58

been, like always, usually, just

45:58

before I went to India, I had to

46:02

do a lot of work at my yoga

46:02

studio, I had to do a lot of

46:07

work just before going. So I was

46:07

always a bit stressed when I

46:10

first when I went to India, and

46:10

I remember that time also, I had

46:13

a lot of stress on my mind still

46:13

when I landed in India, and then

46:16

we went with my friend or after,

46:16

after taking our stuff to the

46:21

hotel, we went to the river

46:21

Ganges. And then we rolled up

46:25

our sleeves from our pants and

46:25

walked into the Ganges. And all

46:32

the stress was gone. My my my

46:32

mind went like blank silent for

46:37

minutes on end. And I was just Yes, yeah, this is awesome.

46:41

Yeah. And

46:45

that was a mystical experience.

46:45

Oh, so that the stress just goes

46:48

in one second. And why did it

46:48

happen when I stepped into the

46:52

river Ganges? I don't know. But

46:52

something interesting happened

46:55

there. Yeah, I like the way that you're

46:57

explaining real time

47:01

experiences. Because I think

47:01

often, when we embark upon yoga,

47:06

studying yoga philosophy,

47:06

there's this, you know, like,

47:10

something far off in the

47:10

distance idea that maybe if I

47:14

keep with my practices, I will

47:14

attain this sort of elusive, but

47:22

really intriguing idea of being

47:22

awakened. But I like that you're

47:28

bringing it into a momentary

47:28

awareness of like, and I think

47:34

like, probably, it wouldn't

47:34

matter if I went to the Ganges

47:38

River and India, or if I was in

47:38

Finland, and I decided to do an

47:44

ice bath and sauna today, that

47:44

but like you said, like when you

47:48

feel a shift in your body, and

47:48

you're aware that all of this

47:53

stress has just a part in or

47:53

that you had a change a shift,

47:57

that you're clumping that into

47:57

or putting that into the idea or

48:00

the category of a mystical

48:00

experience. Because when you

48:03

when you say like that, I can

48:03

think of maybe a lot of

48:05

different myths, a lot of

48:05

mystical experiences that are

48:08

happening all day, every day.

48:08

Like that, that kind of makes me

48:11

think a little more like, yeah,

48:11

even right now to be able to

48:14

talk to you on the computer

48:14

through some amazing form of

48:18

technology that just, we're on

48:18

the other side of the world. And

48:22

and here we are having this

48:22

conversation, I mean, so So I

48:27

appreciate that. And I think I'm

48:27

getting a little bit more of a

48:30

glimpse of what you're pointing

48:30

out in relation to, to this,

48:35

this concept or this philosophy?

48:35

How How does non dualism then

48:40

apply to say people that are

48:40

processing trauma? And is there

48:44

a way to utilize these ideas to

48:44

heal?

48:54

Yeah, one more thing about the

48:54

mystical experience and wheezing

48:59

or distinction between them so

48:59

so I want to still make clear

49:03

that when I make the made the

49:03

distinction or say that some

49:06

people are not prone to mystical

49:06

experiences, it still it still

49:12

doesn't take any anything away

49:12

from their, their ability to or

49:16

their potential to awaken to

49:16

their true nature. So because

49:19

the awakening itself to their

49:19

essence, nature is itself is not

49:24

in the same sense. It's not a

49:24

mystical experience, because

49:29

it's not really it's not an

49:29

experience in the sense that it

49:36

comes and goes. Or it's, it's

49:36

not an experience in the sense

49:40

that it's bound to always come

49:40

and go, but it's rather a

49:43

paradigm shift that can can

49:43

become permanent for you so you

49:46

can start to experience usually

49:46

it doesn't come in one goal, a

49:50

permanent experience for you

49:50

experience difficulties with

49:54

language, but it doesn't usually

49:54

come. Usually, right away or

49:59

permanent. Non phenomenon

49:59

recognition for you, but it can

50:03

become so in that sense, it's

50:03

not an experience. If we define

50:06

experience something that comes

50:06

in goes like with in your

50:12

perceptions or as thoughts in

50:12

your mind or as feelings or

50:16

emotions. So yeah, that

50:16

distinction I wanted to make but

50:20

then your your question about

50:20

the trauma

50:30

Well, what happens when people,

50:30

so to speak, awaken to their

50:37

essence nature is that they stop

50:37

bit by bit more and more, they

50:43

stop identifying with their body

50:43

mind. And of course, trauma is

50:47

something in the body mind. And

50:47

when you're not identified with

50:51

the body, mind, mind, you're not

50:51

identified with the trauma

50:54

either anymore. So you don't

50:54

necessarily hold on to the

50:58

you're not holding on to or

50:58

cling to that trauma. And of

51:06

course, it doesn't mean that

51:06

then right away, all your trauma

51:08

is just gone. But it, it makes

51:08

it easier for you to start

51:13

working in different kinds of

51:13

therapeutic modalities, with

51:17

different kinds of therapeutic

51:17

modalities with the trauma. And

51:21

and then when you, if you, for

51:21

example, have have like

51:31

flashbacks of traumatic

51:31

experiences, you can stay as

51:35

some, let's say, aloof observer

51:35

of those experiences, and just

51:40

let them go through you, meaning

51:40

that you don't try to push them

51:45

away, or you don't try to

51:45

suppress them, or you don't

51:48

freak out because of them. But

51:48

you realize also the flashbacks

51:52

of traumatic experiences, that

51:52

they are also just experiences

51:56

that come and go, meaning that

51:56

you can just let them move

52:00

through you, and try to

52:00

experience them as raw as

52:05

possible as the raw sensations

52:05

without the story. Because what

52:09

also happens with awakening that

52:09

your mind is not like your mind

52:16

is not confabulating stories all

52:16

the time. So when you have any

52:22

kind of feeling or emotion or

52:22

sensation, if you can let go of

52:26

the story, then you can also let

52:26

go faster of the sensation or

52:31

feeling more emotion which is

52:31

uncomfortable for you. Yes,

52:36

that makes great sense. You're

52:36

making it sound so simple. I

52:41

like it. Because sometimes

52:46

some people put it this way that

52:46

it's not necessarily easy, but

52:49

it can be simple. It can be

52:49

simple in the way that when you

52:54

when you learn to just be the

52:54

AWARE presence, then it is just

52:59

observing what is going through

52:59

you and you don't have to, you

53:04

can still have really

53:04

uncomfortable feelings. So it's

53:07

not easy in that sense. But in a

53:07

way, it's simple.

53:10

Yeah. I love the analogy that

53:10

you used earlier regarding when

53:16

we were speaking about saying

53:16

memory dysfunction, that there's

53:20

a now moment and now moment and

53:20

now moment as if they're a bead

53:25

with a thread and moving through

53:25

it. So there's some continuity,

53:28

and and then just there's just

53:28

not the non awareness of the

53:33

previous now moment. And when

53:33

you're making mention of

53:37

mystical experiences, and the

53:37

awakened mind, I wonder if say

53:44

like, we have 10 beads in a row.

53:44

And the first bead is an

53:48

awakening experience, or an

53:48

mystical experience that we

53:53

experienced for whatever that

53:53

duration of time would be. And

53:56

then the second, the third beat

53:56

fourth bead isn't, I'm back in

53:59

that mind of like, I'm worried,

53:59

I'm stressed, I'm freaking out.

54:04

And then the fifth beat is all

54:04

an awakened moment. And then,

54:10

and so there's a little bit of

54:10

space in between, is it because

54:15

I know we have to be like aware

54:15

of like when I set a goal. If I

54:19

think I'm striving for something

54:19

in the future, I'm missing being

54:23

in the moment sometimes and just

54:23

experiencing what is now is

54:27

there would you say in the non

54:27

dual philosophic philosophy that

54:31

we're speaking about speaking

54:31

about? Is it our goal to try to

54:36

make not only the first speed

54:36

and awakened experience, but

54:40

also the second and the third?

54:40

And the fourth? So eventually

54:43

all those moments haha are all

54:43

one continuous state of being

54:50

awake. Yeah. So yeah, that is that that

54:52

could be said to be the goal

54:56

that do that awakening or being

54:56

in the weight awake state

55:02

meaning that you sort of like

55:02

identify with your essence

55:06

nature or the consciousness as

55:06

such that is the is the goal and

55:13

and usually it happens so that

55:13

you first have like a short

55:18

shift into that kind of state.

55:18

And then if you keep at it, you

55:22

start having longer and longer

55:22

shifts into that state until it

55:27

at some point becomes permanent

55:27

and then that I would call

55:29

liberation. So, I would also

55:29

make the distinction between

55:32

awakening and different like

55:32

depths of awakening and then

55:37

liberation is when you never

55:37

ever think that what you are is

55:45

the body mind but instead you

55:45

always even even if you go how

55:51

ever horrible experiences

55:51

through however horrible

55:55

experiences through your body

55:55

mind is going you still don't

56:01

identify with the body because

56:01

usually Of course, if we feel

56:04

pain we right away identify with

56:04

the body. Oh, there's pain. I

56:09

want to get rid of it. And

56:09

usually of the uncomfortable

56:11

feelings we got want to get rid

56:11

of and after a pleasant

56:14

experiences, we want more of

56:14

those. But I guess permanently

56:18

awake person, which I definitely

56:18

am not. They wouldn't they they

56:25

don't. And also potentially

56:25

talks about it this that for

56:28

them, it doesn't really matter.

56:28

Is the experience. pleasant or

56:33

unpleasant? They just take it as

56:33

it comes. So they stopped

56:39

preferring chocolate to carrots,

56:39

so to speak.

56:48

Yeah, fascinating. Fascinating.

56:52

So there are some some there are

56:52

some examples of like, one of

57:00

the teachers non dual teachers

57:00

that I have encountered

57:03

encountered online lately is

57:03

this woman called Karen trace.

57:09

And apparently she had like us.

57:09

I don't know the details of her

57:14

past. But she has said that it

57:14

is as traumatic as it can be.

57:21

But you don't want to tell the

57:21

details because you don't want

57:24

people to like dwell over the

57:24

details of her horrible past.

57:29

But but she apparently don't

57:29

anymore. Feel the trauma at all.

57:35

And for her, like also too, for

57:35

example, Eckhart Tolle like it

57:40

happened, without any spiritual

57:40

interest without any so called

57:45

spiritual spiritual practices.

57:45

So for some people, that

57:49

awakening can happen without

57:49

practice. And then usually when

57:53

it happens without practice,

57:53

then they usually because they

57:55

first don't understand what the

57:55

heck is going on with them. They

57:58

start reading philosophy India,

57:58

for example, Indian philosophy

58:01

or Eastern philosophy or

58:01

Christian mystical philosophy.

58:05

And they learn, okay, there are

58:05

also other people who have

58:08

experienced these kinds of

58:08

things. So this is what I'm

58:11

going through. And then they

58:11

either start to start teaching

58:16

or don't start teaching, but

58:16

also, apparently lots of

58:19

awakened beings nowadays who

58:19

don't teach or don't want to

58:23

teach. They just live their

58:23

normal life doing whatever they

58:26

do. And, and, yeah, yes.

58:33

Do you think it was your

58:33

initial, your initial foray into

58:39

philosophy and yoga and

58:39

meditation? Did you have a

58:44

mystical experience first that

58:44

then caused you to want to do

58:48

the study that you've done and

58:48

the research that you've done?

58:50

Or? No, no, I think for me, it was.

58:52

Usually usually people when they

58:57

start doing these so called

58:57

spiritual practices, they either

59:03

are unhappy with themselves, I

59:03

was that I was unhappy with

59:07

myself and I wanted change, or

59:07

they want mystical experiences,

59:12

or they want power over others.

59:12

I mean, in the tantric

59:19

traditions, there's actually a

59:19

prayer that you should say every

59:22

day that I want to do my

59:22

practice, for the truth of being

59:29

out of love of my love for

59:29

myself, and for the benefit of

59:33

for all beings, because usually

59:33

always people start on the

59:37

spiritual journey because they

59:37

want because they are happy with

59:40

themselves. They even hate

59:40

themselves. And, of course, your

59:46

practices can help with that.

59:46

But it's not like that's not

59:52

what they are designed for

59:52

initially. Or then people just

59:55

want to mystical experiences

59:55

which took them through But the

1:00:00

famous Tibetan Buddhist teacher,

1:00:00

famously spiritual materialism,

1:00:05

yeah, that's also a form of

1:00:05

materialism that you just want

1:00:08

new experiences, always new

1:00:08

experiences, but then you get so

1:00:11

like, stuck with new

1:00:11

experiences. And it's not really

1:00:14

any different from getting new

1:00:14

experiences through drugs or, or

1:00:21

any any other essential means.

1:00:21

Or then people often we have

1:00:26

these sad examples in the in the

1:00:26

yoga and meditation world where,

1:00:30

where a bit narcissistic people

1:00:30

become gurus, and then they

1:00:35

start abusing people. So often,

1:00:35

sometimes people start the yoga

1:00:40

practice or meditation practice,

1:00:40

because because they want

1:00:43

influence over others. But yeah,

1:00:43

so that's why in the tantric

1:00:48

tradition, we do this, this

1:00:48

prayer that let me not falter

1:00:53

into those three categories, but

1:00:53

let the let me be freed of them.

1:00:58

And just do this. Because I love

1:00:58

myself because I want to know

1:01:05

the truth of existence. And

1:01:05

because I want to do this for

1:01:09

the benefit of all for all

1:01:09

beings. So for me, it was

1:01:13

definitely that I was just super

1:01:13

unhappy with myself. I was,

1:01:16

like, socially awkward and prone

1:01:16

to depression and stuff like

1:01:23

that. And I just wanted to

1:01:23

change. That's why I want that's

1:01:26

why I started to do yoga. I

1:01:26

didn't change. Yeah.

1:01:30

Very cool. Marco. I, I love this

1:01:30

discussion. I, I know to stay on

1:01:36

time with you, I, I first I

1:01:36

noticed could take us down a

1:01:40

whole nother long conversation.

1:01:40

So maybe I'll just save it for

1:01:44

the next time. But I'm on the

1:01:44

last chapter of cutting through

1:01:47

spiritual materialism by

1:01:47

trombone, tuba, and I'm really

1:01:50

enjoying it. And at the same

1:01:50

time, because I know folks that

1:01:55

were studying with him at

1:01:55

Naropa, Colorado, back in the

1:02:00

70s, or in 80s, that then upon

1:02:00

hearing about the how his power

1:02:07

kind of gotten this used, as I'm

1:02:07

reading it, I'm finding like,

1:02:12

Wow, what an incredibly gifted

1:02:12

teacher. And at the same time,

1:02:18

I'm going, but how and why did

1:02:18

did he falter in that direction?

1:02:25

And I don't think that we have

1:02:25

to answer that or try to figure

1:02:28

that out right now. But I

1:02:28

earlier in our conversation, I

1:02:31

was about to bring that book up

1:02:31

someone to ask you something

1:02:34

about that. And so I'm glad you

1:02:34

did. Maybe that was a mystical

1:02:37

experience there. We had some

1:02:37

sort of, yeah, but tell me, tell

1:02:42

me, I'm not in a rush at the moment.

1:02:43

So if you have time, we can

1:02:45

understand go on for another 20

1:02:45

minutes or so. But what why, why

1:02:51

it happens to some people that

1:02:51

they, when they start getting

1:02:54

power over other people they

1:02:54

start abusing other people is

1:02:58

that when you get the awakening,

1:02:58

or the awakening experience as

1:03:02

such, that that's not the most

1:03:02

that's not the most difficult

1:03:06

part of the liberation process

1:03:06

or the yogic process, but the

1:03:11

most difficult part is is

1:03:11

integrating the awakening

1:03:17

experiences of your or the

1:03:17

recognition of your essence

1:03:22

nation, integrating it to all

1:03:22

spheres of your life. So what

1:03:26

happens is that with many

1:03:26

teachers, they often have

1:03:31

mystical experiences or paradigm

1:03:31

shifts as wakening awakenings,

1:03:37

Awakening's, but then they they

1:03:37

fail to integrate that to all

1:03:44

spheres of the lives of their

1:03:44

live life. And and they, for

1:03:51

example, become attached to for

1:03:51

example, the power that they

1:03:54

have over others and that they

1:03:54

also happen happens in the

1:03:57

community as we fortunately

1:03:57

learned during the me to

1:04:01

movement. But yeah, were you in your process of

1:04:03

studying in India with batavi

1:04:07

Joyce over all those years? Did

1:04:07

you witness was it obvious to

1:04:10

you that there was some misuse

1:04:10

of power?

1:04:14

Well, I actually started going

1:04:14

there quite late. So the first

1:04:17

time I went to India was in was

1:04:17

it 2007. But it was the last

1:04:22

year that pathologist was

1:04:22

actively teaching. So I was

1:04:25

there in January, I think it was

1:04:25

2007 or eight. And then soon

1:04:29

after that, in March, he fell

1:04:29

seriously ill and never really

1:04:33

recovered. So that was the last

1:04:33

winter that he was really in the

1:04:37

Sharla teaching. And the next

1:04:37

year it was 10 Shut out who was

1:04:42

actually it had taken over he

1:04:42

was still alive. He was still

1:04:44

alive. But he wasn't teaching

1:04:44

anymore. I saw him. Yeah, two

1:04:50

years after the second. I mean,

1:04:50

the third time I went to India,

1:04:54

he was still alive and I saw him

1:04:54

maybe once in a conference and

1:04:57

once in the office, but he

1:04:57

didn't say anything. thing, and

1:05:00

then he died quite soon after

1:05:00

that, yes, but I didn't because

1:05:03

the only time that I was with

1:05:03

him in the shower there was

1:05:07

during the time when they

1:05:07

already had the big shower. So

1:05:09

there was like, what, 70 people

1:05:09

at the same time in the shower?

1:05:14

So I didn't really see anything

1:05:14

myself. So yeah, I can't say

1:05:21

that I saw anything. But of

1:05:21

course, I did see the I did

1:05:25

find. I. Well, I did see one

1:05:25

thing when, when, actually the

1:05:32

first time I met him was in

1:05:32

Helsinki, half a year before I

1:05:35

went to India. So his last tour

1:05:35

in Europe happened the summer

1:05:40

before I went for the first time

1:05:40

to Mysore. And I practiced with

1:05:45

him in in Helsinki, for one

1:05:45

week. And it was only lead

1:05:50

classes and always after the

1:05:50

lead class, some people queued

1:05:53

up and they went to thank him

1:05:53

either touched his feet or, or,

1:05:58

or gave him a kiss. And what I

1:05:58

then noticed was that when he

1:06:02

was kissing the women on the

1:06:02

mouth, he often also patted

1:06:09

their behind, which of course,

1:06:09

teachers usually don't do

1:06:12

principal in university. I have

1:06:12

never seen a teacher putting

1:06:15

their students on their behind.

1:06:15

Yes. So I found that a bit odd.

1:06:19

Yeah, yeah. Understood. I hear you,

1:06:19

man, I hear Yeah. Well, that's

1:06:27

good insight, that that thought

1:06:27

crosses my mind a lot. And I

1:06:32

appreciate the way you explain

1:06:32

that. I think that does make

1:06:35

sense. Man, I really, really

1:06:35

enjoy this. I really, I really

1:06:45

enjoyed I enjoy having this

1:06:45

opportunity to speak with you,

1:06:49

Marco, and hearing your

1:06:49

perspective. And I am so

1:06:54

thankful to Frank for

1:06:54

introducing me to you. And I

1:06:59

have had said I'm having such a

1:06:59

great time meeting meeting.

1:07:03

fins. I just finished low because you

1:07:05

always they always recommend to

1:07:11

other some other person though,

1:07:11

I'm just gonna recommend.

1:07:16

I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll

1:07:16

take it. I mean, the I the

1:07:20

process of finding folks to

1:07:20

interview I love it, I enjoy it.

1:07:25

And I love having conversation.

1:07:25

Having us having never really

1:07:31

met each other have any. It's

1:07:31

just comes out of faith and

1:07:35

trust. You know, we that, you

1:07:35

know, we both enjoy yoga, and

1:07:40

have had some practice in it.

1:07:40

And let's just see what what

1:07:44

what what you've learned, you

1:07:44

know, and what you've come

1:07:46

across. I think it's an

1:07:46

incredible. I mean, I really

1:07:48

enjoy this Mica. So thank you so

1:07:48

much for taking time out of your

1:07:52

day here. And I I would like to

1:07:52

tell

1:07:56

me we have a hole in it. Because

1:07:56

that usually out at this time

1:07:59

I'm at work. But we have a

1:07:59

holiday because we have finished

1:08:03

Independence Day. So Finland

1:08:03

today one number in the six

1:08:06

years. home at this time. Yeah.

1:08:08

Congratulations. How will you

1:08:11

celebrate? Is there anything

1:08:11

like? No,

1:08:14

this is my celebration having

1:08:14

this discussion.

1:08:19

Cool, man. All right. Well, I

1:08:19

really appreciate this so much.

1:08:24

And you know, it's funny because

1:08:24

I let me just be really honest

1:08:28

here i, i on I would like to

1:08:28

schedule these podcasts to be

1:08:33

like, two hours, three hours,

1:08:33

because, you know, you just get

1:08:37

down the track and you and then

1:08:37

we break through this, you know,

1:08:40

okay, I trust you and your feel.

1:08:40

I feel like you're trusting me.

1:08:43

And so it's okay. And we can

1:08:43

chat and and then I have

1:08:46

listeners who sometimes they go

1:08:46

Todd like when I see that the

1:08:50

podcast is over an hour, I go,

1:08:50

Oh my gosh, how am I going to do

1:08:54

this? And I recently had one

1:08:54

where and then I released one

1:08:57

recently that was an hour and a

1:08:57

half. And so one of our

1:08:59

listeners told me she goes, Oh

1:08:59

my gosh, I can't believe like I

1:09:02

saw it. And I was like He's

1:09:02

killing me like, what does he do

1:09:05

his make his for them? And then

1:09:05

she was like, it was so

1:09:07

fascinating. I loved every

1:09:07

minute of it like, and so she

1:09:12

was laughing at herself just for

1:09:12

having that. All the stuff our

1:09:16

mind does, you know all this,

1:09:16

like how am I going to do this?

1:09:19

How will I make it through and

1:09:19

then? So I'm trying to stick to

1:09:23

the one hour format just because

1:09:23

like, you know, nowadays with

1:09:26

modern social media and stuff,

1:09:26

it's like you have 30 seconds or

1:09:29

you have 60 seconds. Yeah, to

1:09:29

make your point to make your

1:09:33

claims, actually. Yeah, of course. If you're doing

1:09:34

just like if you're, for example

1:09:38

advertising something then it's

1:09:38

often a very short attention

1:09:42

span that people have. But if

1:09:42

people really put the time aside

1:09:46

to principle, listen to a

1:09:46

podcast or watch a podcast. Yes.

1:09:50

If the topic is interesting, I

1:09:50

think we shouldn't underestimate

1:09:53

people, they can still

1:09:53

concentrate on stuff for a long

1:09:56

time. For example, that isn't

1:09:56

the most most Some popular

1:10:01

podcasts in the world Joe Rogan

1:10:01

experience and his podcasts are

1:10:05

open three hours long and people

1:10:05

watch them hundreds of millions

1:10:08

of people watch them. You're right. You're right. Well, maybe

1:10:09

you're I think you're giving me

1:10:13

a good suggestion here. How

1:10:13

about Marco? Maybe on the next,

1:10:17

if you're open to doing this

1:10:17

again, let's let's go for a

1:10:20

marathon. Let's do that. Let's

1:10:20

take the three hour journey. All

1:10:26

right. So the all of you

1:10:26

listening the next time you see

1:10:28

march on on the podcast, you

1:10:28

know, it's a course.

1:10:39

All right, deal, my friend. It's

1:10:39

on. All right. Well, thank you

1:10:43

so much, Mark. I really

1:10:43

appreciate it. Let's do it

1:10:46

again. Yeah, let's do it again.

1:10:46

All right.

1:10:50

All right. Thank you. Nate native yoga taught cast is

1:10:55

produced by myself. The theme

1:10:59

music is dreamed up by Bryce

1:10:59

Allen. If you liked this show,

1:11:04

let me know. If there's room for

1:11:04

improvement. I want to hear that

1:11:07

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1:11:07

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1:11:12

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1:11:12

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1:11:17

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1:11:17

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1:11:22

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1:11:22

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1:11:27

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1:11:27

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