0:09

In

0:10

part one, we discussed Robert f Kennedy's

0:12

death in the trial of sir Han Beshara,

0:14

sir Han. Authorities will have you

0:17

believe that's the end of the story. Case

0:19

closed, but not so fast.

0:22

Today, we discussed the shoddy LAPD

0:24

investigation into Bobby's more and

0:26

discuss conspiracy theories that developed

0:29

to do their lack of follow-up with witnesses

0:31

and key evidence. We'll explore

0:34

theories of mind control, a mysterious

0:36

woman, and a possible second gunman.

0:39

I'm Mike.

0:40

I'm Ian. And

0:41

I'm Dave. If you enjoyed last week's

0:43

history lesson from professor Mike,

0:45

stick around. He might be a Clint denier,

0:47

but he sure knows his history. This.

0:50

his Necronomipod.

0:51

As

0:54

for Kennedy, second gunman

0:56

is the one who killed Robert

0:58

Kennedy. NOT SURPASSED. Reporter:

1:00

TRAIN SAYS A SECURITY GUARD ON DUTY

1:02

THAT NIGHT IS THE PRIME SUSPAP. IN

1:04

nineteen eighty eight, THAT STUN KPIX

1:06

reporter, Mike Hagadis. You know what?

1:09

There's stuff here that I've never heard before.

1:11

Hagadis interviewed trade, the coroner,

1:13

an FBI agent, a forensic scientist

1:15

he hears the shots and an investigative journalist.

1:18

So I don't think we really know what really

1:20

happened that night. Daniel Day had spent

1:22

months looking into the shooting, his efforts

1:25

were based in part on an FBI report

1:27

indicating more bullets had been

1:29

fired than sir Han's gun hold.

1:31

The fatal shot was also delivered

1:33

at point blank range behind Kennedy's

1:36

right ear.

1:39

I was talk talking

1:42

with our bud Ed from Pod

1:44

Van Dam the other day, and I think I was texting with

1:46

you guys about it. but

1:48

he broke the news to me about the new

1:51

four k release of planes, trains, and

1:53

automobiles.

1:54

Seventy five extra minutes? I'm

1:56

super hyped. Yeah. I

1:58

saw you can get it on Amazon.

1:59

Alright. Like, it's already been really simple. I

2:02

looked last night though and couldn't find

2:04

Yes. I can't find a streaming, but you

2:06

can order the Blu ray -- Yeah. -- as of yesterday.

2:09

Yeah. But, like, I was trying to find a streaming

2:11

version. Mhmm. I don't see that.

2:14

but I couldn't find it but seventy five extra

2:16

minutes. God damn. It's like a whole movie

2:18

almost. Where

2:19

are your Between two Those

2:21

aren't pillows. one

2:24

of the funniest fucking movies ever.

2:26

It always gets me a tear up at the end, though.

2:29

Super Shout at the end. Oh, yeah.

2:31

since I couldn't find it, I ended up watching Uncle

2:34

Buck, which might be my favorite John

2:36

movie. Nice. And then it got us

2:38

talking, like, you know, you make your comments

2:40

about Corey Feldman never being in bad movie.

2:43

Yeah. I'm not sure John has ever

2:45

made a bad movie. I cannot think of

2:47

one that I dislike.

2:48

Yeah. I really can't.

2:50

He's

2:51

underrated. Is

2:53

he underrated? I think he's underrated.

2:55

I think

2:55

he gets credit

2:57

but I

2:58

don't know if he gets enough credit. I feel like

3:00

people will talk more about Chris Farley

3:02

than John And I think

3:04

John Candy is better than Chris Farley.

3:06

Yeah. Chris Farley is underwriting. Kind

3:09

of found that one role that works for

3:11

him and played that and everything. The

3:13

wild party, you know, like, the

3:15

the Tommy a type character. Hollywood is pretty

3:17

fucking funny, though.

3:18

It's crazy. And like Beverly

3:20

Hills

3:20

Ninja is hilarious. It's

3:22

a stupid but it's funny.

3:25

I think Kandi's better. Kandi

3:27

could play some of those serious roles. Kandi

3:29

pulled off that that role in JFK.

3:32

Well, he's the the

3:34

the

3:34

New Orleans attorney

3:37

or I can't remember. I haven't seen that movie in forever.

3:39

But, you know, he played some of those serious roles.

3:41

What are some John movies?

3:44

I'm drawing a blank. III was slipping around

3:46

the other day in the space. monologue and stripes

3:48

came on. baseball slipped away. He joined

3:50

the army. so great.

3:53

baseballs, stripes,

3:56

great outdoors, great outdoors.

3:58

Lanesh trains automobiles,

3:59

cool runnings, which is under rate is home?

4:02

Home alone. You have that part in home alone

4:04

at the end? Yeah. Good stuff.

4:07

Blues

4:07

brothers. I

4:08

forgot about that. little shop

4:10

of horrors. It's a

4:11

good movie. No. So

4:14

it's not a bad one. I'd watch

4:16

any one of those movies right now. yeah,

4:18

I mean, there's a bunch of stuff on this list that I'm

4:20

looking at that I'm like, I've never heard any of this

4:22

before. I

4:23

have not seen, like, those two films that came

4:25

out after he passed. I was looking them

4:27

up last night. There was two of them that came out

4:29

after he died. I have not seen

4:31

those.

4:32

I'm not sure then. Oh, and

4:34

he was in National Lampunes,

4:36

the original one. Oh, vacation? He's

4:38

where he's the security guard at the at

4:40

Moly World events. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

4:43

He's in a lot of stuff that, like, you forget about

4:45

because, like, he had just like some bit parts for a

4:47

while there. It's kinda

4:48

like a porn name. Right? John Kennedy.

4:51

Could be.

4:53

What's his actual name? Is that his actual name?

4:55

No.

4:55

He's still on his page? No. That's fine now. Is it

4:58

Canadian? I mean, Canadian. He's from Toronto.

5:00

Yeah. Yeah. Like

5:01

John Candy Zitsky or something.

5:03

Fuck that. I'll cut it off.

5:05

Watch John Candy. Give it to Marilyn

5:07

Chambers and her pooper.

5:09

That's his real name. Look

5:11

at that. John Franklin So

5:13

I'm not used to dealing

5:15

with two part episodes. It was really weird

5:17

for last week, like, telling the story of the

5:19

assassination of Bobby Kennedy, and then just being

5:21

like, oh, and sir Han went to jail and

5:24

seen it next week? I had, like, so much more

5:26

I wanted to say. Like, there's just so much more to the

5:28

story. It's a good natural stopping

5:30

point, I think. Good cliffhanger,

5:32

if you will. I think it makes sense to tell

5:34

that story and then to get in I mean,

5:36

otherwise, it would have been, what, nineteen pages

5:39

of notes. Sure. That a bit, you know, we've never done

5:41

anything that ridiculous. People's eyes will glaze over.

5:43

It's too much. It is too much.

5:45

Fuck my ass. We're glazing over. You

5:47

know? Your ex are always glazing

5:49

over. What are you talking about now? I don't do a

5:51

weed. But

5:53

but you

5:54

know, like we said last week, we

5:56

kinda just focused on Bobby's life

5:58

the night of the shooting what happened,

6:00

and then sir Han and his

6:02

life and what led up to that point.

6:04

We didn't really get into anything else on

6:06

the backside of it. I know we touched on the trial

6:09

and how sir Han's defense just accepted

6:11

the fact that he was guilty didn't

6:13

challenge any of the evidence,

6:15

didn't look for more evidence, and just kind

6:17

of focused on how do we get, you

6:19

know, him life in prison instead of the death penalty.

6:21

kind of a sub par defense team

6:23

to say the least. Was it a public defender? I

6:25

don't know that we even thought I do not believe it was

6:27

public defender. No. But

6:29

was his family paying attorney

6:32

fees? That's Was it a pro

6:34

bono publicity?

6:36

I'm not you know, I'm actually not sure who was

6:38

paying -- Yes. -- pay the the the Surhan family

6:40

couldn't afford that. Yeah. You

6:43

know, it's almost I mean, you can almost

6:45

question given who ended up defending

6:47

him with the

6:51

not challenging anything and, you

6:54

know, just accepting that he was guilty,

6:56

But then, you know, his his chief defense

6:58

attorney is gonna be going

7:00

facing charges himself. So to stay

7:02

in the good graces of the court like we talked about,

7:06

you know, didn't didn't

7:08

try to even defend

7:09

it. Like, the fix might have been in. Like, the

7:11

fix could have been in early on.

7:13

Could have been. But that's a good question.

7:15

I'm not sure what who was

7:17

paying them if if anybody was. Mhmm.

7:19

So this week, we're gonna focus

7:22

more on the theories

7:25

and the conspiracy theories. And

7:29

then kind of inter weave into

7:31

that, the police investigation. and

7:33

maybe where they failed a little bit, and

7:35

the FBI investigation. The investigation

7:38

in the Bobby's death was conducted by

7:40

the LAPD which set up a

7:42

special tax task force unit known

7:44

as special unit senator known

7:46

as also called SUS or

7:48

I guess SUS as the kids say nowadays.

7:50

I brought that sauce

7:53

and they were.

7:54

They also had assistance from the FBI,

7:57

but as, you know, Ian's covered in some

7:59

of our other stories. You can imagine the police and

8:01

FBI didn't really work well together. They

8:04

didn't share any information, witnesses,

8:06

evidence, any things like anything like that.

8:08

The only thing they really had in common though

8:10

was that they both had poor

8:12

investigations. Potential

8:14

leads weren't pursued Many

8:16

unknown people in the ambassador hotel

8:18

who had acted suspiciously were

8:20

never identified. Credible witnesses

8:23

with virtually no reason to lie who

8:25

gave plausible statements were treated coldly

8:27

in urged to change their story if it

8:29

didn't fit the sir Han narrative and

8:31

written witness interview statements were

8:33

altered. On top of that, about thirty

8:35

four hundred witness interview tape recordings

8:38

were destroyed. Written transcripts

8:40

of undistracked interview tapes

8:42

did not correspond to what on

8:44

the tapes. Police evidence logs

8:46

were falsified and over twenty

8:48

four hundred photos were incinerated.

8:51

Physical evidence was also destroyed. think

8:53

the best way to get into this like I said is to

8:55

go through each conspiracy theory and

8:57

discuss how and why they originated and

8:59

why authorities may have ignored evidence

9:01

or covered it up. with that

9:03

preface, I'm not sure it's a conspiracy.

9:06

It seems like

9:08

when all that stuff's getting destroyed, it seems

9:10

like there's definitely something going on. Or

9:12

I I meant to say it's not a potential

9:14

conspiracy. It seems like an outright conspiracy

9:16

that we see in in plain

9:18

sight here. It's just it it's

9:21

crazy how you can just be like, it's all

9:23

destroyed. Oh oh, accident.

9:25

I have my little notes here

9:27

for later in this episode. And that's exactly

9:29

what gonna talk about a lot more files

9:31

getting destroyed. Okay.

9:33

Like, we don't have enough room to keep this

9:35

stuff. Like a major

9:37

event in US history AAA

9:39

sitting senator was assassinated while

9:41

running for president. Gotta get rid of it. Gotta

9:43

burn it. No more evidence. Or

9:45

as we'll go on, they'll call it not evidence

9:47

because Well, we'll get to that.

9:50

So the first theory we're gonna talk about

9:52

is a second gunman. To

9:54

be clear, The first few years after

9:56

the assassination and trial of sir

9:58

Han sir Han, there wasn't much of a

10:00

Hoopla made over the investigation.

10:03

People who looked Closely

10:05

at the at the investigation had questions,

10:07

but much of the police evidence was

10:09

kept confidential and locked away. It

10:11

wasn't until the early seventies when

10:13

Allard Lowenstein, a former congressman,

10:16

turned Kennedy aid, began looking

10:18

closely at the investigation. Did all this really

10:20

start to blow up? Lonestein

10:22

also recruited the help of Paul Schrade,

10:24

who we mentioned last week.

10:26

Schrade was shot in the head during the shooting,

10:28

survived, and was brought in by Lowenstein

10:30

to help try to get some answers from the LAPD. And

10:32

he advocates for Surin's

10:34

release. Right? Yes. For his parole? Yeah. He

10:36

will. And and we'll talk about that a a later

10:38

on, but he he advocated multiple times

10:40

for sir Han's release

10:43

on parole. So here's

10:45

what Lowenstein andrade uncovered.

10:47

Oh, I'm

10:47

sorry. You know, before I move on, I always like to sort

10:50

give my sources at the start of the show.

10:52

For this episode, I used the

10:54

RFK tapes, which is

10:57

ten plus part podcast

10:59

series that was done a few years ago.

11:01

Awesome information in that, the RfK

11:03

tapes. I use the book shadow play by William

11:05

Claibre and Philip Miller. Melinson,

11:07

I used the book the Killing of Robert

11:09

Kennedy Kennedy by Dan Moldea, and

11:11

I used the Pokerot file on the Robert

11:13

f Kennedy Killing by Fernando Farah.

11:16

any hudos to a lot of sources. That

11:18

was

11:19

less than last week, but look at two going balls

11:21

deep in the story. I've been reading books

11:23

all year. I want

11:25

Ball to deepen a lot of things this year. So

11:30

here's what Shred and Lowenstein

11:33

just uncovered. LAPD

11:35

ballistics expert and chief

11:37

criminalist for the investigation was Dwayne Wolfer.

11:39

Wolfer was in charge of the crime scene.

11:41

This meant one of his roles was to search the kitchen area

11:43

for potential bullets and bullet holes

11:45

to try to account to account for

11:48

everything fired from Sirhan and

11:50

possibly others guns. In the

11:52

end, Wolfort claimed that only eight shots were

11:54

fired that night in the kitchen, which

11:56

obviously worked out well for their narrative that

11:58

Sirhan had acted alone.

12:00

However, evidence claims otherwise.

12:02

The LAPD officially

12:04

stated that five bullets were found

12:06

in the five others wounded when Bobby

12:08

was shot. Though that's five bullets

12:10

were at. Yep. They claimed that two bullets were

12:12

taken from Bobby's body and that the

12:14

final bullet went through Bobby's shoulder

12:16

pad and got lost in the ceiling. That

12:18

was their account for all eight bullets in Sir

12:20

Han's gun. However, if you

12:22

remember last week, we noted that Bobby had three

12:24

wounds on his body. One bullet

12:26

was lodged in his spine, one bullet was

12:28

lodged in his head, and a third bullet

12:31

exited his chest. The official

12:33

police version only accounts for two of

12:35

these bullets. Additionally. Well,

12:37

if the third bullet exited could

12:39

have hit multiple people, it

12:41

could have, but it also came out of his

12:43

chest, meaning it was going in front of him.

12:45

people behind him were shot But

12:47

that's what they're trying to say is that sir Han

12:49

who was in front of him shot though. Right?

12:52

Correct. Which conflicts will learn

12:54

later with the coroner's report. Absolute.

12:56

A lot of misinformation here. They're also

12:58

still only accounting for two wounds in

13:00

Bobby because the one through his shoulder pad they're

13:02

saying went up in the ceiling. they're

13:04

saying two were taken from behind. They're

13:06

they're not even accounting for a third wound on

13:08

him, which is just

13:09

it's it's insane. How can an

13:11

official police version of

13:13

An

13:14

assassination of a US senator

13:16

be so, like, blatantly

13:19

not accurate. I

13:22

think that's why there are so many

13:24

conspiracy theories and what we're gonna get into,

13:27

maybe going about how high up

13:29

this might actually go. something so

13:31

easily provable to

13:32

be

13:33

not accurate. Just don't

13:35

see how they could fly. And

13:37

it's not like it's gonna get better with what we're gonna be

13:39

talking about. Like it only gets

13:41

worse.

13:42

Additionally, police and FBI

13:45

wreck contain photographs of

13:47

the door frames that were behind Bobby

13:49

at the time of the shooting. These would have been the

13:51

doors that he entered into the

13:53

kitchen through. On the door

13:55

frames, in these pictures, you can see the door

13:57

frames, there's two holes that were

13:59

circled and initialed by an LAPD

14:01

officer. These photographs were labeled

14:03

as bullet holes by both the police and

14:05

the FBI. Duane

14:07

Wolfer would later testify that these

14:09

weren't bullet but just damaged on by

14:11

serving trays over the years.

14:13

The maitre d Carl Yooker, who's

14:15

one of the people we discussed last week, is

14:17

being right there near Bobby when he was

14:19

shot. refutes Wolfer's claims and has

14:21

stated that while he's no expert,

14:23

he believes he believes he

14:25

saw not just holes, but actual

14:27

bullets lodged in the door frame after the

14:30

shooting. And this is the major d of the hotel,

14:32

somebody who's gonna be very familiar with the

14:34

kitchen area. He's gonna know if serving trays, which is

14:36

bumping into the door frames. Yeah. And you

14:38

always claim that holes or holes, but I'm

14:40

not sure that that's accurate in this scenario,

14:42

pal. I think there's difference between a

14:44

bullet hole and a trade bumping

14:46

off. And like you could see these pictures,

14:48

and I I think we we might even post a picture. Like,

14:50

they're just, like, little tiny holes. I don't

14:52

see how a serving tray even can do that.

14:54

Yeah.

14:54

holes are not holes. holes are not

14:57

holes. holes. holes is not holes. That

14:59

is true. There were

15:00

also

15:01

several reports from witnesses who said

15:03

they saw numerous bullet holes in the ceiling,

15:06

not just one as the LAPD client.

15:08

However, none of this could be reviewed.

15:10

Because within a year of Surhan's

15:12

trial, the actual door frames

15:14

and the ceiling tiles which were

15:16

removed by the LAPD during the investigation were

15:18

all destroyed and thrown out.

15:21

They claimed that since they weren't used during

15:23

Surhan's trial, they were no longer evidence

15:25

because they weren't evidence. They weren't used in the

15:27

trial. Mhmm. This really reminds me of

15:29

Waco. You remember when that

15:31

door was just filled with bullet

15:33

holes, and you could really would have been

15:35

able to tell which direction they were coming from

15:37

left. I was like, oh, no. We didn't need that. Yeah. Just

15:39

destroyed this, sir. Get rid

15:41

of that. Yeah. So so

15:43

other than the photos which were kept

15:45

confidential at this time, like

15:47

you they had no way, you know, the

15:49

actual evidence has gone. couldn't

15:51

do any further testing on them. It

15:53

almost seems like this some of the stuff should have went to

15:55

the Smithsonian or or something.

15:57

Right? certainly

15:58

shouldn't have been just

15:59

discarded. Not if it's not gonna fit the narrative

16:02

of what they want you to think.

16:04

But yeah, I mean, you you can go see

16:06

Lincoln, you know, his hat and know, all

16:08

that. Right. And and DC

16:10

had his was this not at the

16:12

time viewed as the kinda

16:15

historic major moment in US history

16:17

that that that that we sort of look back on it now?

16:20

I mean, not certainly think it was. I just

16:22

don't know if people really knew

16:24

the extent of It just

16:26

seemed like an old story that was in that

16:28

case at that point. And I think people

16:30

wanted that because of Dallas,

16:32

and what happened with JFK. and

16:34

all the conspiracy theories. People

16:37

wanted to just know, sir Han did it, and he's

16:39

locked away, and I feel better. I I

16:40

that's what I think, just by

16:42

reading this stuff. It

16:44

it was a convenient story. You know, a

16:46

foreigner had

16:47

a gun in there. Didn't like his

16:49

comments on his real He was a Palestinian.

16:51

Open shut case. And and The

16:53

thing about this, I had this in the notes at one

16:55

point, but I think I took it out just to kind of

16:57

save some space. You

16:59

know, people The

17:00

Assassination,

17:02

it might

17:03

be the most famous murder in American history,

17:05

certainly

17:06

one of them. people

17:08

go nuts or the conspiracy theories.

17:11

But when you

17:11

look at the actual case,

17:13

the lack of evidence

17:16

conspiracy in JFK's assassination

17:19

pales

17:19

in comparison to the amount of

17:21

evidence there is in the Bobby Kennedy

17:23

assassination. which is everything

17:25

we're about to lay out for you. Yeah. There

17:27

are some evidence for JFK,

17:29

but when you compare it to the amount of

17:31

evidence for conspiracy in in Bobby's,

17:33

It's even close.

17:35

The only major

17:37

sticking point with JFK is the magic bullet,

17:39

right, that someone couldn't hit

17:41

those shots. There's that distance and that

17:43

six seconds or whatever. Right? That's really all there

17:45

is. And then and then isn't there's the theory of,

17:47

like, someone switching the bullets out, like, the lip

17:49

that was found. The autopsy was pristine. Didn't look

17:52

like it even went through a body. Let

17:54

alone everything. But but

17:56

that

17:56

said. Not

17:57

much. And I'm not saying there isn't

17:59

anything there. I'm just saying evidence wise,

18:02

this one blows it out of the lot.

18:04

That's right. And and so I

18:05

think, but going back to your original point, I think by

18:07

this point, the country

18:09

was, first of

18:10

all, upset over JFK,

18:12

you know, on national television seeing his

18:14

head blown off, the

18:16

conspiracy

18:16

that followed,

18:18

their sons and

18:21

brothers and and husbands are come getting

18:23

killed in Vietnam. You

18:25

know, they didn't want more conspiracy

18:27

with Bobby being shot. They wanted open and shut,

18:29

I think. And so I think and this is

18:31

just my opinion. I'm just speculating that

18:33

people probably just wanted to accept it and

18:35

move on. You can only

18:37

take so much. Right? The

18:39

sixties

18:39

is a tumultuous time. When

18:41

the Warren Commission finished investigating

18:44

JFK, did the people in this country

18:46

generally accept that? That's a good

18:48

question. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Like, what was

18:51

the sentiment at that time? Or did they even know,

18:53

like, who takes the time to read it? Or do you

18:55

just read whatever headlines are and

18:57

then, you know, move on. I

18:59

know, like, in my lifetime, it's

19:01

always been. Oh, there's a conspiracy behind

19:03

JFK. It's like, that's what we accept

19:05

now. I'm not sure what it would have been at the time.

19:07

I think when I did the outline

19:09

for Oklahoma City, I

19:11

was looking up conspiracy theories

19:14

like statistics on them.

19:16

JFK was the most believed. I

19:18

think that's a conspiracy theory. And that was

19:20

among American people that

19:22

was the number one. I'm just curious if that's more

19:24

recent or what the sentiment was

19:26

in this country in -- Right. --

19:28

sixty four whenever the Warren Commission

19:31

concluded that Oswald was the lone gunman.

19:33

Yeah. And

19:33

and and I certainly understand why. I mean, he was

19:35

a sitting president who, again, on

19:38

national television, had his face

19:40

shot off. But if you

19:41

wanna talk about conspiracies with assassination, this

19:44

one is much bigger. It

19:45

just, you know, he was the little brother. He

19:47

was kinda afterthought. You

19:50

know? hadn't quite reach that that

19:52

level yet that his brother had. What

19:54

he was heading there? I certainly

19:56

think so. Yeah. Over the years, with

19:58

the advancement of technology, numerous

20:01

audio engineers have tried to break down and re

20:03

listen to audio recordings from that evening

20:05

in the kitchen. these experts have

20:07

stated that you can hear as many as thirteen

20:10

gunshots during the incident, which

20:12

obviously is more than the eight that they

20:14

attribute to Surhan. Other experts,

20:16

however, have said the audio was pretty

20:18

inconclusive. And I kinda toss this one up to fifty

20:20

fifty. I've heard some of the

20:22

tapes, it's very hard to tell.

20:24

I'm not an audio expert, but when you have experts

20:26

on both sides going in in conclusive,

20:28

and I hear thirteen, I'm not sure

20:30

I put much weight in the audio

20:33

evidence. Was that at the beginning of that Andrew

20:35

West tape that we listened to last week or no? Was

20:37

that partly That all was

20:39

after there was I mean, they

20:41

might have broken down after, but I

20:43

don't remember hearing any pops or

20:45

anything like that that you could attribute. Right.

20:47

But again, they're screaming. And I think that's where

20:49

some of the the divisive nip

20:51

divisive nip comes in is that some people

20:53

are like, well, under this screen, you can

20:55

hear a pop. Right. And other audio

20:57

engineers are like, Oh, no. That's you know,

20:59

that that could just might be something happen on the

21:02

floor or anything. Exactly. So

21:04

I'm not

21:05

saying III have I I think

21:07

either way on that one, I just know the experts seem

21:09

pretty torn on it. So that's

21:11

like

21:11

911

21:13

calls. We've

21:13

gotten into those debates that

21:15

that stuff can go either way. Yeah. Sure. Even in,

21:17

like, John Bené. Right? Like, you could like, oh,

21:19

you can hear the mom whispering in

21:21

the background about to to

21:24

burke to be quiet or something. Yeah.

21:26

And once you

21:27

think that, now you're gonna hear it every time

21:29

because in your mind, that's what you're looking for.

21:32

I

21:33

buried Paul. Well,

21:35

that's

21:35

for real, though. I heard that very

21:37

much.

21:38

based on the findings

21:40

of lowenstein and trade, of which

21:42

included rumors that wolf had switched out

21:44

the bullets that were actually in Bobby's body with

21:47

twenty two caliber bullets from

21:49

Sirhan's gun. A Los Angeles judge

21:51

ordered that a forensic analysis be

21:53

conducted to determine if the bullets were covered

21:55

by the LAPD were all in

21:57

fact from sir Han's gun. The panel

21:59

made up of seven criminalists ended

22:01

up with essentially no answer.

22:04

Four of them believed that all three bullets

22:06

that wounded Bobby were from the

22:08

same gun. One of them was fairly sure all three were

22:10

from the same gun and two of them were

22:12

uncertain. All seven of them did

22:14

agree that there was no evidence

22:16

to support that they were all from sir Han's

22:18

gun, but also no evidence to support

22:20

a second gun. They did agree

22:22

that Wolfer ran a careless investigation

22:24

and that the matter should be further looked

22:26

into. Obviously, the

22:28

LAPD touted this as a win

22:30

publicly stating, quote, they found no evidence

22:32

of a second gun. And that's kind of

22:34

what the headlines became. This

22:37

brings

22:37

us to the biggest evidence

22:39

of a second gunman as if you couldn't maybe

22:41

be convinced yet. It's autopsy

22:43

report. Per the

22:45

final report by the LAPD,

22:47

the autopsy report shows that

22:49

sir Han acted alone.

22:52

Unlike

22:52

president John Kennedy, Bobby

22:54

received a first class autopsy

22:56

completed by renowned LA county chief

22:58

medical examiner, Thomas Naguchi.

23:01

who was known as, quote, cornner to the

23:04

stars. He completed the autopsy of

23:06

Marilyn Monroe, Sharon Tate, Janice

23:08

Chaplin, John Bellucci, and

23:10

many more. Doctor Naguchi

23:12

is a well respected

23:14

credentialed man, and his findings

23:16

stated that all three bullets striking

23:18

Bobby were fired from behind.

23:20

that all three bullets had been fired at point

23:23

blank range, added an

23:25

upward angle.

23:26

Furthermore, because of

23:27

the gunpowder residue found on

23:30

Bobby's neck, ear and shirt collar, the fatal

23:32

bullet which hit him right behind his

23:34

right ear was fired from about a

23:36

distance of one to two

23:38

inches away. All credible

23:40

witnesses from that night put Sohan

23:42

in front of Bobby and no

23:44

closer than two feet

23:46

from him at any point throughout the

23:48

course of the shooting. Thomas

23:50

Naguchi would later write in his memoir that

23:52

he never officially ruled that

23:54

Sohan had fired the fatal shot. even

23:56

though the LAPD, city of the autopsy

23:58

report, supports their theory that

23:59

Sohan acted alone.

24:01

Not long after the investigation,

24:03

Naguchi resigned as chief medical examiner,

24:05

under pressure from the Los Angeles County

24:08

Council's office. He was later

24:10

reinstated to this position. What the

24:12

fuck's going on here, Mike? From

24:13

behind. At an upward

24:16

angle. Was it

24:16

how you like to do it or are you talking about

24:18

the support?

24:19

Both. Like

24:22

like we said, like they had a bullet hole coming

24:24

out of his chest. How was

24:26

that was?

24:27

Well, so

24:28

what the LAPD will have you think?

24:30

and people aren't gonna be able to see this, but the

24:32

way we're sitting here, well, Ian would

24:35

actually be behind me more. If

24:36

you're sir Hand Dave, You're

24:39

you're sitting straight in front of me right

24:41

now. Bobby at the time, if you remember,

24:43

was turning to his left, to shake

24:45

hands with Juan Robert, the

24:47

bus boy. Right. So he's turning like this

24:49

and they're

24:49

saying, boom. Now now my man. But

24:52

you're still in

24:52

front of me, two feet away. things gonna

24:55

exit my chest. No. two

24:57

feet away, not point blank crane. And we'll

24:59

get into in a bit where

25:01

the actual shooter may have been and

25:03

who it was. But if

25:05

you're, you know, you're maybe four feet

25:07

from me now -- Yeah.

25:08

-- a little closer. You're

25:10

gonna put

25:10

one behind my right ear behind

25:12

my chest or come off my chest and then one large in my spine.

25:14

I'm not turning that much. I mean,

25:16

he's just

25:17

turning the shit. He was very unlikely.

25:20

Right. that

25:21

one behind the ear doesn't make any sense.

25:23

No. I'm struggling

25:24

with that one or Gung powder on

25:26

his ear, neck, and collar. So you're

25:28

close, but the way he was

25:30

the way he was turning to shake

25:33

still

25:33

doesn't make sense. He would have

25:35

to be looking, like, going

25:37

to shake a person directly in front of him,

25:39

but look at The

25:40

trajectories just couldn't line up. Right.

25:42

And you're also thinking, like,

25:45

for the for sir

25:46

Han, and

25:47

thinking that that shot entered at that

25:50

exact moment, which

25:51

I will get to in a minute. But also,

25:53

how is it possible

25:55

for someone

25:55

to be one to two

25:57

inches behind him and fire three shots

25:59

into him, him but nobody

26:01

buddy No credible witnesses

26:04

saw that. Like, there was

26:05

a lot of people around. There was a

26:08

lot. Two inches away is

26:10

close. Is very

26:12

close. It is. It doesn't

26:14

seem -- When possible. -- when the shots go

26:16

off though, there is chaos.

26:18

There is, you know, people

26:20

running people, scattering people falling. You know

26:22

what? Maybe we should say this for a couple paragraphs

26:25

up when we get into -- Yeah. -- the

26:27

next part. So maybe, sir, hands at the

26:29

version shots and the real kill shots

26:31

come after everyone's hitting the girl. I

26:32

like save it. I think that's gonna be our

26:35

next subject we get

26:37

into here. in a in a little

26:39

bit. Fuck

26:41

it, sir. Hang on. If

26:43

you just wouldn't have those Tom Collins, he would have been

26:45

of sober mind who could have told us all this. should've

26:47

drank Tom Collins this week. Oh, come on, man.

26:50

Goddamn it. Maybe next

26:52

week we'll do it. gotta

26:54

text my buddy, Corey. He was pumped. We shot him out last week

26:57

for he was the one I drank those Tom

26:59

Collins with. Damn it. And then the next day you

27:01

were to lemonade, which

27:03

is essentially the exact same thing just with no

27:06

alcohol. The taste did not do well on

27:08

when he I have gin, lemon juice, and simple

27:10

syrup. I don't think I'm club solo though, so we

27:12

cannot make him at

27:14

the break. Yeah. It's time.

27:16

It's in the club solo. So bitch.

27:19

I saw his eyes light up. He's like, yes. Tom

27:22

Collins. Mom will get

27:24

drunk. We'll take a piss in the pond. Mhmm. Get

27:27

the fuckers. dating back to nineteen seventy three,

27:29

Allard Lowenstein and Paulrade began

27:31

presenting their inquiries to the LA County

27:33

District Attorney's Office. essentially

27:35

ignored their questions and told them the case

27:37

was closed, there was no conspiracy

27:39

or cover up. The DA's

27:42

office also told them that only crazy people ask these kinds of

27:44

questions. They then

27:46

met and that's a theme we're gonna get through,

27:48

you know, when we get to, like, the polka

27:51

dot dress. It's the the police, the

27:53

the the the DA's office.

27:55

Wanted to make you feel like you're crazy. Like,

27:57

you're the odd one because you're saying this or you're

27:59

thinking less. Just interested in

28:01

innocent people who are coming forward with

28:03

information that they either witnessed

28:05

or that they wanna know more

28:07

about. Nope. should always ask questions. There's

28:09

nothing wrong with asking questions in any

28:11

situation. You're

28:12

okay. It's allowed you're allowed to ask questions.

28:14

You absolutely are. For anything? For God

28:16

given right, Mike, as an American. Whoa.

28:19

You were sick. You

28:21

were sick. When

28:22

you'd like, Hole Kogan's music on the things.

28:24

I am a man.

28:26

People got a lot of

28:28

my voice tonight. Law enforcement

28:31

andrade then actually had a meeting

28:33

with LAPD chief Ed Davis

28:35

who told them they needed to submit all their

28:37

questions in writing. Lonecine and Schraetz

28:39

submitted a total of twenty three quest questions

28:41

regarding the LAPD investigations

28:43

of Bobby's death the bullet holes,

28:45

the distance Sirhan was from Bobby, and

28:48

about interviews the LAPD conducted.

28:50

Over the course of the next year, they would submit

28:52

their questions multiple times, but never

28:54

once received a reply from the LAPD.

28:57

The last time they submitted their questions,

28:59

they told the LAPD that if they didn't get

29:02

a reply, it would hold a press conference and publicly call them

29:04

out. And that's exactly what they

29:06

did. In late nineteen seventy

29:08

four, with the help of their new attorney,

29:10

Vincent Buliosi, who

29:12

is the infamous prosecuting attorney who went after Charles

29:14

Manson and later wrote the book, Halter

29:16

Schalter. That guy is ridiculous.

29:19

he's

29:19

a ridiculous human being. Is he? I don't know much about him.

29:21

Just the way the way he talks about Charles means

29:23

that in Helz or Sculptor is absurd.

29:26

think he says the first time he met him, his watch stopped

29:28

at the sight

29:29

of There's a Charles

29:31

Meeons. He's for the theater, air of that and the

29:33

drama. Yeah. He's for Well, that

29:35

doesn't help for that. In this case, let me bring him

29:38

in. Lowenstein

29:41

andrade held a pop press conference

29:43

with Giuliani.

29:45

and publicly demanded answers from the LAPD

29:47

regarding the number of bullets fired in the

29:49

kitchen the day Bobby was shot and demanded

29:51

to see photos of the door frames.

29:55

where they and several eyewitnesses

29:57

believed possible ninth and

29:59

tenth bullets were latched. Again,

30:01

ninth and tenth being Sir Han's gun only

30:03

held eight bullets. he clearly he didn't have time

30:05

to reload because

30:07

even if he did get all eight shots off, he was

30:09

being wrestled around and, you know, you heard the

30:11

clip last week. Right? just

30:13

chaos. Yeah. You're not reloading as someone's trying to break

30:15

your thumb. Because of the public pressure

30:17

Lowenstein and Trey had created in August of

30:19

nineteen seventy five, the Los Angeles County

30:21

Board of Super appointed a special

30:24

counsel to the Los Angeles County

30:26

District Attorney's Office to

30:28

investigate assessing assassination theory

30:30

of a second gunman. Even

30:32

with the evidence discovered and submitted

30:34

by Lowenstein and trade, the conclusion

30:36

of the special council was that there was little

30:38

or no evidence to support the theory that

30:40

a second gun was fired that night.

30:43

Convenient. as

30:45

expected. Oh, go ahead. I would say

30:47

did they disavow the corners

30:49

ruling then. Like, that's the

30:51

official corners ruling as he was shot

30:53

from the back. Are they Are they officially

30:55

disavowing that? I think what there's

30:57

no. I think what they're saying is that they don't

30:59

believe that Sirhan couldn't have shot

31:02

that way. I

31:02

think that they They're kind of The police heard Liam saying He

31:05

was turned. They're explained. Yeah. Bobby

31:07

was turned and Well,

31:10

the witnesses, you know, they don't know how close he

31:12

was. He could have very easily got that close.

31:14

They're threading a needle. Yeah. And they're

31:16

just still maintaining that yeah. All that all adds

31:18

up, but Sirhan could have done that. Yeah. I you

31:21

know, was the route they were going. Yeah. They're you

31:23

know, they're they were saying there's not enough

31:25

evidence here to, like, reopen this as a

31:27

second gunman based on, you know,

31:29

well, that's what they're

31:31

saying. But There

31:33

there were no witnesses that said sir Han

31:35

lunged at him or anything. Did he

31:37

just

31:37

pull the gun out and start firing, or

31:39

did he move forward? He was

31:41

moving forward. Like, he was kind of

31:43

walking towards Bobby And again, it it also

31:45

the there's depends on what witness you you

31:47

take into account.

31:49

What? There's no

31:50

credible witness that has come forward and said

31:53

he was that close to

31:55

Bobby. Okay. That he couldn't have fired

31:57

just as he was walking and

31:58

then the

31:59

last shot

31:59

just went through the net. As soon as he started

32:02

firing, you know, there were people

32:04

wrestling. And it was actually it was a professional

32:06

football player and an Olympic and I I don't have

32:08

their names in front of me that were two of the ones

32:10

that were with Bobby that were trying

32:12

to tackle Like, these were the big dudes. He wasn't

32:14

getting much closer. They kind of pinned them on

32:16

that that prep table, and

32:18

he might have fired some more shots, but he

32:20

was then pinned to a table.

32:21

Okay. I guess, what

32:23

I'm saying is the corners saying they

32:25

were an inch or two away from them. And And I

32:27

think the police are saying, well, sir Han could have been.

32:29

Like, we don't have We don't have evidence that wasn't

32:31

that close to. Yeah. I don't

32:33

think they're throwing it out. They're saying, this

32:35

autopsy shows we're right, sir Han.

32:38

was close, and Bobby was turned, and he double chung.

32:40

A lot of it.

32:42

The early PD is playing it off, like,

32:44

oh, no Gucci he supports us. Like,

32:46

you you see his thing. And that's why I said, Naguchi

32:48

said in his memoir years later, I

32:51

never said sir Han fired it. Well, that's

32:53

probably why they tried to get rid of him more anyway, so

32:55

he couldn't you know, give further

32:57

comment on what he actually meant. Yeah. They tried to

32:59

set him up on, like, inappropriate behavior

33:02

or something. very

33:04

coincidence. like, you know like, dancing.

33:06

I don't know if it was with Bobby. Somebody else

33:08

had passed away not long after, like, a celebrity.

33:10

And, like, they said Naguchi was

33:12

dancing in, like, the room when he was doing

33:14

the autopsy saying, like, I'm gonna be famous. I'm gonna be

33:17

famous. And they tried to use that to,

33:19

like, get rid of him. And so he

33:21

resigned. That's weird. But then came

33:23

back and was like, no, I'm not gonna resign. I know I didn't do anything

33:25

wrong, and then they brought him back. So He's

33:27

so alive today, I believe. Really?

33:29

Yeah. I believe so. Can

33:31

you tell me and would like to interview him,

33:33

please? Sure. Okay. Yeah.

33:35

Let him know.

33:37

As expected, after the special

33:40

council ruled that there wasn't enough evidence

33:42

to support the theory of a second

33:44

gun, LAPD provided no

33:46

follow-up or additional information. In their

33:48

minds, this case was closed, and all evidence

33:50

confirmed that Surhan was the assassin

33:52

and acted alone.

33:53

Incidentally, In nineteen

33:55

eighty, Allard Lowenstein

33:57

was shot and killed in his office by one

33:59

of his protege's Kennedy Sweeney.

34:01

Sweeney suffered from schizophrenia

34:03

and believe that Lowenstein was plotting against

34:05

him in some way trying to ruin

34:07

him professionally. Sweeney

34:10

shot Lowenstein and then patiently waited for the police to arrive. He

34:12

was eventually found not guilty by reason of

34:14

insanity and was sent to a

34:16

facility to receive

34:18

psychiatric treatment. Given

34:20

Lowenstein's involvement and going

34:22

after the LAPD, some have

34:24

questioned if there's maybe more to

34:26

Lowenstein's death, and that

34:28

Sweeney and his schizophrenia was used as the

34:30

cover up. I'm not saying

34:31

there's much to that. I'm

34:33

just saying it's it's Could be a coincidence, Dave,

34:35

but I know how you feel about those. Don't love

34:37

them. Everyone knows the LAPDs

34:40

on the up and up all

34:42

the time. It's

34:44

exactly right. In nineteen

34:46

eighty

34:46

eight, when the LAPD

34:48

eventually released their case files

34:50

due to ongoing public pressure,

34:52

Again, this is twenty years later. There was a memo in

34:54

the files that stated quote, do

34:56

not answer Allard Lowenstein's questions

34:58

because they contradict our public

35:02

state Paulrade would continue to seek more information

35:04

into the police investigations, but

35:06

nothing more ever really came from it.

35:10

He eventually became an advocate for sir Han's parole

35:12

and would often attend his parole

35:14

hearings speaking on sir Han's behalf.

35:17

He would do this all the way up until his passing

35:19

a few weeks ago, November nine,

35:22

twenty twenty two. It's like two

35:24

weeks yeah ago.

35:26

Yeah? Exactly two weeks ago from the date we're recording on. Is it safe

35:28

to say he went to his grave believing

35:30

sir Han did not act alone?

35:33

Correct. He believed there was a conspiracy and that sir

35:35

Han, if he's not gonna be granted a new trial,

35:37

should at least be released on

35:39

parole, which isn't still what sir Han's

35:41

defense team feels. outside of

35:45

just destroying all those documents.

35:47

Like, that's just blatant. This

35:49

this memo

35:51

is pretty damning. Yeah.

35:52

To read that. Yeah. Like,

35:54

sir Han is

35:55

probably owed a new trial. Right?

35:58

Like, based on even all

36:00

of this, But

36:01

then you you

36:02

have to have evidence of to

36:04

prove that maybe somebody else was involved. Right?

36:06

Like, you have to you have to be able to

36:08

prove does that mitigate his conviction?

36:11

Like, there's no question he was there

36:13

firing a gun. Correct. But he

36:15

was convicted of murder and if he

36:17

didn't actually murder him. would be would be

36:19

what you have to perth a tough sell there. I

36:22

mean, and that's why it's been this long and there

36:24

hasn't been. Yeah. So then I don't think he

36:26

could get a second trial off I think that

36:28

they've now -- Someone else needs a trial. --

36:30

they've switched their arguments to

36:32

parole. Now because of

36:34

that, like, okay, we know, you know, he did

36:36

what he did. but he's not the

36:38

murderer. Let's have parole, like,

36:40

in here's you know, we'll get into that.

36:42

Yeah. Like, the mitigation has to be that

36:44

he was set up and hippathized

36:46

to the main chain candidate or something like

36:48

that, and he was not acting under his own

36:50

volition. All things we're gonna we we will get

36:52

in and done. Yeah. With that. Like, I

36:54

I generally don't buy

36:56

into conspiracy theories because I

36:58

think with something

37:00

like this, there would need to be so

37:03

many people involved that eventually someone's gonna talk and you

37:05

can't cover up something like that

37:08

forever when you have to

37:10

involve so

37:12

many people But I think, like, something like nine eleven. I'm like -- Yeah. --

37:14

the things they say about the nine eleven

37:16

conspiracy. Like, that's not possible. And then I

37:18

don't like some

37:20

point. I yeah. There's too many

37:22

people involved in that, and someone will talk. But maybe this is a smaller

37:24

net where you could pull it

37:26

off. There's not that many people

37:30

involved. but

37:30

it seems to be fairly evident that was going on here.

37:32

The nine eleven

37:33

stuff pisses me off because I just find that

37:35

to be completely disrespect

37:38

full to, like, the victims and everybody involved in that, that there's a bigger conspiracy

37:41

at play. But, like, with regards

37:43

to something like this, like,

37:46

they're taking out a sitting senator who's running for president of the United

37:48

States. So if you're involved, they're probably

37:50

also not afraid to take you out if

37:52

there's suspicion that you're gonna talk or

37:55

run your mouth. you know, and no one will be any of the

37:57

wiser if they can pull off this

38:00

conspiracy, you

38:00

know, maybe you have a car

38:02

accident. because they your

38:04

breaks or whatever it might. Sure.

38:06

Sure. But I I agree. Like, you

38:08

always think like, well, somebody's gonna talk. Right?

38:10

Like, because you can't cover this up forever.

38:13

But there

38:13

are people that

38:14

have talked, like I saw online when

38:16

I was kinda looking at the Robert

38:19

artichoke stuff. There

38:20

were some ex CIA guys that

38:22

claim to be involved or know

38:25

the plans of things. Yeah. We're

38:27

more JFK and stuff. Yeah. I

38:29

assume maybe people just don't

38:31

take them serious. Like, what's that

38:33

guy's what's that guy's statement gonna do to If

38:36

not to pick up the store or if

38:37

not to keep you wide open,

38:39

people are, like, Yeah. Fuck

38:41

this guy. One guy's statement is not gonna bring down

38:43

the CIA. Right. Right. And I think that's

38:46

kinda where it goes. It's

38:47

a good point. I

38:50

think

38:50

there's like this somewhere

38:52

in between with these conspiracy theories,

38:54

like actual conspiracies like

38:57

this. that something obvious obviously,

38:59

it

39:00

was wrong happening here.

39:02

And things like Oklahoma

39:06

Oklahoma city bombing where

39:08

incompetence, it gets

39:10

to the point where it's like, you

39:11

can't believe the government would be that incompetent. So

39:14

there has to be a conspiracy here.

39:16

Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. So

39:18

somewhere in between, you

39:20

know And Oklahoma City

39:22

is the the rumors of MK Ultra. Correct?

39:24

I'm mixing up stories. No. There was just like the government did that on.

39:26

It same thing with nine eleven where the government

39:28

it was like a false flag type

39:32

Gotcha. Those stupid. Who am I thinking of with Ultra?

39:34

Not Jim

39:35

Jones.

39:37

Unobama. Unobama. That's

39:39

what I'm thinking. So

39:41

so We laid

39:42

the groundwork for maybe why there might be a second shooter or

39:44

evidence of a second shooter? Obviously, the

39:46

next big question is, if there was in

39:49

fact a second shooter, who was

39:52

The only name that really comes up and the one that comes up

39:54

consistently is Thane Eugene

39:57

Caesar. In nineteen sixty eight,

39:58

Caesar was employed

39:59

by ace guardsor

40:02

service. An ace was contracted by

40:04

the ambassador hotel to provide security

40:06

that night for the Kennedy campaign

40:08

party. Caesar was a staunch

40:10

opponent of the Kennedy's, had publicly said

40:13

he believed that if elected, Robert Kennedy

40:15

would have, quote, sold the country down

40:17

the road to the commies or minorities like

40:19

his brother did. Right. Like when his brother literally

40:21

backed the commies out of Cuba

40:23

and tried to overthrow Castro.

40:26

Dave, how dare you That's right. How dare you come in here with

40:28

facts? Fucking absurd. How dare

40:31

you, sir? Caesar also held

40:33

a number of extreme far

40:35

right wing views, including supporter supporting

40:38

former governor of Alabama

40:40

George Wallace for president. At

40:42

this time in nineteen sixty eight,

40:45

Wallace was running as a

40:47

segregationist candidate. In

40:48

the name of the greatest

40:50

people that have ever

40:53

promised I draw the line in the dust

40:55

and toss the garlic

40:56

before the feet of tyranny. And

40:59

I say segregation now segregation

41:02

tomorrow and segregation forever.

41:06

Oh, yeah. I love that fucking

41:08

clump. Yeah. So that's what Caesar's work.

41:11

with. That's who he supported for

41:13

president. Jeez. That's

41:14

scary when you hear clips like

41:16

that. Nineteen sixty is not

41:18

that long ago. You know what I

41:19

mean? That guy was leading in nineteen seventy

41:22

two in the early

41:24

Democratic primaries. It wasn't by then

41:26

he reformed.

41:27

reforms. He was

41:30

softballed a little bit. Well, at one point in time, I

41:32

don't remember what election it was. He had he

41:34

had seen the e full of his ways, and

41:36

he's no longer a

41:38

segregationist. Once someone took

41:38

care of him and shot him in

41:40

nineteen seventy two -- Yeah. -- and he

41:43

was done too. He didn't die. He didn't.

41:45

He lived for a

41:45

long time now. Yeah. It's not that long ago.

41:47

It's not that long. I was

41:49

alive in nineteen seventy. I

41:52

was eleven nineteen seventy two

41:54

when George Wallace was potentially

41:56

gonna be elected president of

41:58

his country. Thank god. You

41:59

were twenty five you're that time being. I

42:02

think your vote was the one

42:04

that counts.

42:05

Where's

42:07

that real American again?

42:10

When interviewed

42:11

by police, Caesar stated that he wasn't

42:13

assigned specifically to

42:16

protect Bobby. But when he came through the kitchen, he helped lead Bobby the

42:18

crowd and was standing right behind

42:20

Bobby on his right side.

42:22

When the shooting began, Caesar stated

42:25

he reached for his gun and pulled it

42:27

out of its holster. However, he was

42:29

unable to fire it because he fell to

42:31

the ground down with him. If

42:33

you remember,

42:34

we said earlier,

42:36

Thomas Naguchi's

42:37

autopsy report say that

42:39

all three bullets that hit Bobby were fired from

42:42

behind, all three bullets have been fired

42:44

at point blank range and

42:46

at an

42:47

upward angle. a

42:48

fatal shot entering directly behind Bobby's right ear.

42:50

This would essentially put

42:52

Caesar in the

42:53

exact

42:54

spot you would need

42:56

to be to shoot these. Yeah. Especially if

42:59

you're pulling him down with

43:01

you and, you know,

43:02

putting your gun up

43:03

and shooting up.

43:05

Is it possible he drew

43:06

his gun when he heard a gunfighter and he

43:08

fell down and he popped off

43:10

a couple shots by accident? We

43:13

have

43:13

a clip will play in a minute here where

43:15

he says that did not happen. Mhmm. He

43:17

he claims he did not

43:20

fire his gun that night.

43:21

You could test for that. Right?

43:24

Yeah. Though Caesar admitted

43:26

to drawing his gun at the scene of the shooting, he

43:28

also added that the gun he had on that night

43:31

was a Rome thirty eight, not

43:33

a twenty two, like the caliber of the

43:35

bullets the LAPD stated they

43:37

found in Bobby. The LAPD quickly dismissed Caesar as

43:39

a possible suspect and never asked to

43:42

see the alleged thirty eight he was

43:44

carrying that

43:46

night. So we're just going off of what he said he had on him.

43:49

Furthermore

43:49

-- Yeah. Right. -- you know what I'm saying?

43:52

Did the rumors

43:54

of Wall first supposedly switching out the

43:56

bullets. Maybe originate from this

43:58

then? It's yeah. And I didn't see

43:59

a lot to support that he switched

44:02

him out other

44:04

than Wolf for, you know, didn't run a good investigation.

44:06

Yeah. Seems to die into this

44:08

scenario, though. I don't know enough about

44:10

caliber of bullets

44:12

to know if, like,

44:13

the gunshot wound coming out of Bobby's chest, could you tell

44:15

if it was a thirty eight or a twenty two

44:17

just by looking at the hole? Wouldn't

44:19

Gucci have known that?

44:22

that I don't know enough about just bullets in general. But they pulled

44:24

the slugs out of his body. They

44:27

pulled two out. Yes. But

44:29

then, you know, there's that third one that they claim they

44:31

they they haven't seen. Mhmm. And

44:34

then also if it

44:36

if it and

44:36

this is what we'll get into. There's

44:38

no proof that Caesar had a thirty eight on

44:40

him. He might

44:41

have had a twenty

44:44

two. how

44:44

do we know gun Right?

44:48

Caesar

44:48

caesar

44:49

admitted to police that

44:51

while he he claims he had a thirty eight on

44:53

him that night, he did at one

44:55

time own a twenty two caliber

44:57

pistol, but he claimed he sold the gun

44:59

a few weeks for the assassination to a man

45:01

named Jim Yoder. Yoder would later confirm he had

45:04

purchased the gun from Caesar.

45:06

However, the receipt Yoder had was dated

45:08

September sixth,

45:10

nineteen sixty eight and bore Caesar's signature, indicating

45:12

that Caesar had actually sold his

45:15

twenty two three months after

45:18

Bobby's assassination.

45:19

So with the bullet

45:22

switching, it could have been a thirty

45:24

eight. I don't know,

45:25

but it

45:26

it could have been a twenty two from

45:28

Caesar. now that if, you know, we don't know what gun he had on

45:30

that night because they didn't follow-up on it. They didn't

45:32

ask to see it. They didn't ask to

45:33

see if it had

45:36

been fired. that's enough reasonable doubt there

45:38

to acquit someone else charged

45:40

into this crime, but the

45:42

defense never got

45:43

into any of that. the

45:45

defense had had access to the autopsy report. It may

45:47

challenge it. Yeah. Not specifically here because I don't think

45:49

there's any question that

45:52

Surhan was was

45:53

shooting a gun that night.

45:55

I think he was probably

45:57

a distraction. He he a

45:59

hundred

45:59

percent shot. Yeah. So not to get him

46:02

off, but in in kind of

46:04

any other circumstance where

46:06

they were charging someone else, but but this

46:08

whole I sold my

46:10

gun earlier,

46:12

but There's proof he didn't. I think it's probably reasonable doubt that

46:14

he's probably lying about something.

46:16

If there weren't any

46:18

credible

46:18

witnesses,

46:20

that saw sir Han shoot the gun and people that, you

46:22

know, wrestled it away from him. Right.

46:25

Yeah. This would get

46:26

certainly in the new trial for sure.

46:28

That's what I meant. But yeah. And that's what

46:30

I mean. Like, based on this,

46:32

you're

46:33

not gonna probably you're

46:35

not gonna convicts or had a first

46:37

degree murder based on

46:38

this evidence. This gives me

46:40

enough doubt to say, well, wait a minute. I

46:43

don't know if he actually murdered this man.

46:44

I think he might shot have to, you know,

46:47

there was no other really charge. I think there

46:49

was assault with a with a gun. Maybe

46:51

you find him guilty of

46:54

that. Yeah. So,

46:55

you know, it just brings that all up to the question though. Seems like something's

46:57

going on here. It should also be

46:59

noted given what

47:00

we're gonna talk about here in a minute.

47:03

The security gig was not Caesar's full time

47:06

job. During the day, he worked at the

47:08

Lockheed aircraft plant in

47:10

Burbank, California. a job that

47:12

would would require him to have security

47:14

clearance in the Department of Defense.

47:16

The plant he worked at was alleged to have

47:18

been a CIA controlled U2

47:20

spy plane facility and that

47:22

Caesar often worked in an

47:24

area that only

47:24

special personnel had access to.

47:27

After the assassination

47:28

in nineteen seventy

47:30

three, Caesar began working at Hughes aircraft, a job which

47:32

Caesar said required him to have the second

47:34

highest clearance level at the plant.

47:37

Hugh's aircraft was also long rumored to

47:39

have been controlled by the

47:41

CIA. So make of this what you will, but

47:43

Caesar may have had some ties

47:45

to the CIA. Final note

47:47

here on Caesar. One of the books I I mentioned

47:48

that I use

47:49

as a resource was the killing of Robert f

47:51

Kennedy by Dan Robert.

47:54

Dan Moldea interviewed Caesar numerous times and was

47:57

initially convinced he was the one who

47:59

killed Bobby, which is why he took the case up to

48:01

begin with. He was gonna prove

48:04

that Caesar fired a gun. history of investigating

48:07

organized crime and had previously gotten

48:09

two murder confessed confessions

48:11

from former mobsters. Needless

48:14

to say Moldell Moldell was kind of a badass. It

48:16

is kind of a badass. He's still

48:18

around. But by the time he was

48:21

done questioning Caesar, Molde was, and is to this day, a

48:23

hundred percent convinced Caesar had

48:26

nothing to do with

48:28

the assassination. He stated that Caesar

48:30

was calm and collected every time they

48:32

spoke, he never seemed rattled

48:34

and spoke like someone who had nothing

48:36

to hide. Maldea also

48:38

arranged for Caesar to take a polygraph test,

48:40

which Caesar agreed to take and

48:42

he passed. Moldea would go on

48:44

to say, He doesn't think that failing a polygraph

48:47

test should be used against you, but

48:49

if you pass one, that should

48:51

be taken into account. That's just his

48:53

thoughts. And that's where I agree with Dan Moldea is the only person

48:55

to have interviewed both sir

48:57

Han and Caesar.

49:00

Fey, Eugene Caesar, passed away in twenty nineteen.

49:02

We have a quick clip here. It's

49:04

about a minute and a half. This is from

49:07

Dan Moldea. I think he Post

49:09

of the Senate's Twitter. It's from his personal archives. This

49:11

is Dan Moldea interviewing Fain

49:14

Eugene

49:15

Caesar. There

49:18

one other person who claimed to have been a witness a guy by McDonald's Showman.

49:20

And did you know Showman? No.

49:23

I did not.

49:24

Now did you shoot

49:27

back Kennedy?

49:28

I did not. Considering your position relative to

49:30

Kennedy, could you have fired

49:32

your gun without at him without

49:35

being seen? Yes.

49:38

I could. Is it

49:40

possible that you're gonna went off

49:42

accidentally No. k. Once again, did you shoot Bobby Kennedy? I did

49:46

not.

49:48

Did you shoot Bobby Kennedy intentionally

49:50

or Kennedy accidentally,

49:52

either. Now

49:54

over the years, a lot

49:56

of people have when they talk about

49:59

the possibility of a second gun at the Bob Kennedy

50:01

murder. Your name comes up. Why do you

50:03

think that is? Because I was a closest

50:05

person to him that had

50:07

a gun. And you have

50:09

been falsely accused all these

50:12

years. And how does that

50:14

make you feel? How has this affected you? Your

50:16

life? Well, are you? You

50:18

almost have to go into hiding in a way.

50:20

You don't want anybody to

50:22

know where you live, especially the

50:24

news media. They

50:26

tried to find

50:27

timing. I've had to inquire,

50:29

I've had the globe, I've had

50:31

a lot of people try to find

50:33

me and basically they couldn't because I

50:35

didn't make it very is where I was

50:37

because I didn't wanna be harassed by

50:40

anybody. So two points

50:41

on that real quick.

50:43

One, he admitted that he could

50:45

have fired shots and nobody would

50:47

have seen or known. And two days

50:49

you had made mention of

50:51

maybe he accidentally he admitted to polling is gone. He had accidentally

50:53

fired when he went down and pulled Bobby with him. He

50:56

claims no. What was that? Would you ever

50:58

admit

50:58

that if that if you

51:00

accidentally did that, you look like a schmuck. You wouldn't admit that. Right?

51:03

I mean, I guess

51:04

not. But, I mean,

51:07

i mean He's calm, cool,

51:08

and collected. Wow. You know

51:09

who also

51:10

beat a lie detector test?

51:13

Steven Seagull in the movie half past

51:15

that he did with Jai

51:17

Ruel. Hala Hala. It can be

51:20

done fellas. It can be done. Hold the

51:22

heartbeat. Sorry.

51:24

Or you put put a thumb in

51:26

your shoe. Yes. So that's

51:28

on that. Right? Even yourself

51:30

out

51:30

so they can't detect your lies?

51:33

Caesar -- So it could

51:35

happen? --

51:36

he he denies it and says

51:38

it

51:38

wasn't an accident. He pulled his gun.

51:40

and we don't know if there were ever

51:42

any shots fired because there was no follow-up on it. Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

51:44

Like, everyone wasn't detained

51:46

and searched and, like, this

51:50

guy Well, there also wasn't

51:51

a ton of police there like we talked about last week because

51:53

Bobby didn't want the association with them. They didn't

51:55

want the association. Yeah. And, like, the campaign

51:57

didn't even have

51:59

their own Carrie was just contracted by the ambassador

52:02

hotel and no background checks

52:04

and And you would

52:06

think

52:06

that ACE

52:08

would have records of what he had. Like, what what what

52:10

what what gun is our security guard. really

52:12

different and there's no follow-up. Nothing

52:16

into that. It seems a lot

52:18

easier to facilitate this kind

52:20

of, I guess, political

52:22

assassination, if you will, if that's what what

52:24

happened here back then. than it would be

52:26

these days. And now it'd be all over Twitter within what?

52:28

Three minutes? Right. There

52:30

is an interesting note

52:32

for Moldea While research

52:34

for his book in the early nineties,

52:36

Moldea spoke to multiple

52:39

former LAPD officers who confirmed to

52:42

him that there were definitely two

52:44

bullets in the door frames of the

52:46

kitchen and that it was criminalist Dwayne Wolfort who

52:48

took them out. And for all

52:50

of his flunkery, Wolfer was

52:52

eventually promoted to chief forensic chemist

52:54

of the LAPD. Do

52:55

you think the CIA maybe

52:57

this is a conversation for later, but

52:59

you think they'd just go into something like

53:02

this and they're like fuck

53:03

it up. make this the sloppiest shit

53:06

ever. Just, like, kinda throw everything at the

53:08

wall because then you can't really

53:10

decipher. It obscures everything. Right?

53:12

You're like,

53:14

wait. And then you just questioning then

53:16

multiple conspiracy theories come out of

53:18

it. You know what? that

53:21

that makes sense. More than

53:23

anything else, like, how do you explain all

53:25

that sloppiness? If they're just, like, fuck

53:27

this. Walk it

53:29

up. Yeah. I would imagine that's

53:30

that's a very fair statement and could

53:32

easily happen happen. So the next

53:34

thing, I just wanna touch on briefly one

53:37

quick note based on what we discussed last week with

53:40

Bobby going after the teamsters and organized

53:42

crime. While investigating Bobby's

53:44

death, the FBI received a report

53:46

from an Edward Hue poll who had served time with Jimmy

53:48

Hoffman in the Lewisburg penitentiary, and

53:50

he said that Hoffman had

53:53

boasted to fellow prisoners that

53:55

he had put the hit out on Bobby Kennedy. The

53:58

FBI never followed up on

54:00

this.

54:00

No proof. No

54:02

proof. probably just

54:03

talking shit. Probably I'd probably look into

54:05

it a little Robert, but

54:07

then you have to make the connection

54:09

of Surhan to the

54:12

mob or however that might

54:14

go. This episode is sponsored by Better

54:16

Health. Have you ever lost a

54:18

job, had a

54:20

bad breakup?

54:20

breakup or simply just

54:21

felt stuck in life? Ever

54:23

wish life came with a user manual, much

54:26

like our cars or appliances

54:28

do? Wouldn't that

54:30

be great? Lossed

54:30

your job, turn to page sixty three. Just got dumped, turn to

54:33

page thirty two. Feeling depressed, that'll

54:35

be on

54:35

page 104

54:38

Unfortunately, it's

54:39

not that simple. However, better help

54:41

online

54:41

therapy is basically the next best

54:44

thing. So the next time you're

54:46

feeling

54:46

stuck, Why not check them

54:47

out? Better help therapists

54:50

are trained to help you figure out the cause of

54:52

challenging emotions and learn

54:54

productive skills.

54:56

which makes

54:56

therapy the closest thing to a guided tour of

54:58

the complex engine called You. Betterhelp

55:01

has connected over three million

55:03

people with licensed therapists. It's

55:05

convenient, secure, and accessible

55:08

anywhere, all

55:08

done online. Therapy

55:10

can have many benefits. be

55:13

it learning new coping skills, self empowerment,

55:15

dealing with trauma, or even having

55:17

a clearer mind. Look,

55:19

everyone deserves

55:20

to feel their best and better help

55:22

makes it easier to get started. They're

55:24

the world's largest therapy service and

55:26

offer all the benefits of in person therapy

55:29

but are more convenient, accessible and more

55:32

affordable. After filling out a brief

55:34

questionnaire, you'll be matched with a

55:36

therapist. And from there, aren't

55:38

clicking, you can easily switch to a new

55:40

therapist whenever you'd like. It

55:42

couldn't be

55:42

simpler. No waiting

55:44

rooms, no traffic, no

55:47

endless searching for the right therapist. So get

55:49

unstuck with

55:49

better help. Learn more and save ten

55:51

percent off your

55:54

first month at better help that's

55:56

better help, HELP

55:57

dot

55:59

com

55:59

slash necro.

56:02

I think one of the most interesting and mysterious

56:04

conspiracies of the Bobby Kennedy

56:07

assassination involves a girl with

56:09

the polka dot dress.

56:12

And, really, it centers around the eyewitness testimony of

56:14

three individuals, Sandra Serrano,

56:16

Vincent and john

56:19

hey John Feje. Let's

56:20

start with Sandy Serrano. On the night of the California primary,

56:22

Serrano, a Kennedy Campaign

56:24

Worker, was at the ambassador hotel.

56:28

During the election party, she got really hot, decided she wanted

56:30

to go outside, and sit on the backfire

56:32

escape. When she was sitting

56:34

outside, she heard what

56:36

she described as a car backfiring. A few moments

56:38

later, a

56:39

girl and a young man came running

56:41

by her on the steps.

56:43

The woman was yelling, we shot him, we

56:45

shot him. Serrano asked them who

56:48

they shot, and the girl

56:50

responded, Kennedy. Sorano went inside, and within minutes, the

56:52

ballroom was chaos. Sorano

56:54

asked someone what happened and when

56:58

THEY CONFIRMED TO HER THAT BOBBY WAS SHOT SHE TOLD

57:00

THEM WHAT SHE HAD JUST WITNESSED. THE

57:02

MAN SHE WAS SPEAKING WITH TOLD HER SHE NEEDED

57:04

TO A POLICE OFFICER. However,

57:07

on their way to finding a police officer,

57:09

Serrano was grabbed by a reporter from

57:12

NBC who asked if she can give an

57:14

interview. Serrano explained to

57:16

the reporter what she had witnessed on the fire escape. She saw

57:18

an attractive Caucasian girl in a

57:20

polka dot dress running down the steps

57:22

with another

57:24

man who at Quick glance appeared to Mexican person of color.

57:26

She also noted that the girl

57:28

had an odd nose and that will be a

57:30

theme with what we see later on with witnesses.

57:34

Later that night, she was taken to the LAPD station and

57:36

gave her statement to the police. Over the

57:38

course of the next week, the LAPD would

57:40

make her life a living She

57:44

was interviewed in question for hours. She was given line

57:46

ups of polka dot dresses and asked to

57:48

identify which one the girl was wearing.

57:51

She was asked

57:52

about the size of the dots on the dresses.

57:54

Were they quarter sized, dime sized,

57:56

nickel sized, and so on?

57:58

Did this start that night?

58:00

She

58:00

would have gave her first statement that night. Like, did they start this? then I think it

58:02

was, you know, in the coming days that they would

58:04

bring her in for the lineups. Okay. they

58:08

would ask about what color the dress was, what color the

58:11

dots were, almost

58:13

like trying to find any

58:15

difference between any other statements made

58:17

just to discredit. Yeah. Well, I mean, when you're

58:19

talking quarter, dime, nickel, it's all really

58:22

similar inside. What's your What are you

58:24

talking about? Serrano

58:26

would say that she felt like she was being attacked,

58:28

that the police were accusing her of lying

58:30

and trying to catch her on it. Criminalist,

58:32

Dwayne Wolf her, our good friend we've mentioned a few

58:34

times, even went as far as conducting tests

58:37

to determine whether Serrano could have heard

58:39

the gunshots from her location on

58:41

the fire escape. and found

58:42

that she could not have heard the shots. Like, what is he What

58:45

are we even talking about here? This is

58:47

a very strange treatment. Trying to spread

58:49

her witness in. Right.

58:51

actively, obviously, trying to discredit her.

58:54

Discredit her -- Why? -- hearing gunshots on the

58:56

back fire escape. But

58:58

if you remember what we just

59:00

said earlier, Serrano never said she heard gunshots. She said she heard what sounded

59:02

like a car backfire. just

59:06

an attempt by Wolford to try to discredit

59:08

her story. What Serrano didn't

59:10

know and what the police never made

59:13

her aware of was that there were dozens of other witnesses that night

59:15

who gave statements to the police describing seeing

59:18

a girl in a polka

59:20

dot dress. They all describe

59:22

her as Caucasian, attractive,

59:24

inner twenties, and they all not

59:26

many made a comment about her nose.

59:28

Either it was funny or wide

59:30

or big. Many of them

59:32

also said they saw her with two other men

59:35

that day, both of whom had

59:38

darker complexions. tot

59:38

lines up? It lines up, but she

59:39

didn't know that. She just knew that the police

59:41

were attacking her, making her

59:44

feel, you know, like, she

59:46

was wrong. One of these

59:48

witnesses was Vincent DiPierro.

59:50

DiPierro was working as a waiter at

59:52

the ambassador hotel the night of the shooting.

59:54

Afterwards,

59:54

he had told police that he saw a girl in a polka dot dress

59:57

hanging around the hotel and specifically

59:59

the kitchen area

59:59

that night. He also

1:00:02

stated that he had seen sir Han and

1:00:04

another man with this woman earlier in

1:00:06

the evening. Like Serrano,

1:00:08

D Pierro

1:00:10

was unaware that others were making statements about the girl in the polka dot

1:00:12

dress. And more specifically,

1:00:14

he was unaware that Sandy Serrano had

1:00:16

identified her

1:00:18

as well. With this information, initially, the

1:00:20

LAPD put out an APB on a girl on a

1:00:22

polka dot dress. But all the

1:00:24

while, they were trying to discredit and

1:00:26

intimidate Serrano

1:00:28

and deep Piero. The police tried to work at where they

1:00:31

were telling Sandy Serrano you only

1:00:33

think you saw this girl

1:00:35

heard Vincent DiPierro say this and make these

1:00:38

statements. So now you have it in your

1:00:40

mind that you saw her. And they would tell

1:00:42

DiPierro the

1:00:44

same thing. oh, you heard Sandy Serrano say this, so

1:00:46

now you think you

1:00:48

hear that. You you know, you you in your mind,

1:00:50

you're telling you you

1:00:52

saw this. Trying to

1:00:53

make them seem crazy. The

1:00:55

police didn't tell them that dozens of other

1:00:57

witnesses had come forward with

1:00:59

the same information. they tried to make them feel crazy for thinking that

1:01:01

they saw this girl. We have a

1:01:03

clip. This is it's about

1:01:05

eight minutes long. This is Sandy

1:01:08

Serrano being, I'm gonna

1:01:10

say, questioned interrogated

1:01:12

by detective Hank Hernandez of the LAPD.

1:01:15

The first part of the

1:01:17

clip is Sandy Serrano's statement to the

1:01:19

NBC reporter that we talked about before she

1:01:21

spoke with the police. It's her statement to

1:01:23

the reporter. to clip of

1:01:26

Hernandez questioning her on the woman in the

1:01:28

polka dot

1:01:30

dress. At times, it's a little difficult

1:01:32

to hear Serrano because of the quality of the audio and because she's upset.

1:01:34

She's talking very fast and, you know,

1:01:36

in a high pitch. But

1:01:40

listening to hernandez, kinda manipulate, intimidate, and break her

1:01:42

down. You know, listen, and

1:01:44

we'll get your thoughts. Yeah. And

1:01:46

like you said, this is

1:01:48

completely

1:01:50

like obviously trying to discredit them. This is

1:01:52

trying to find these two people guilty of

1:01:55

something. Yeah. What is possible

1:01:57

reason would they have for

1:01:59

doing instead of -- Like, put yourself -- getting into the

1:01:59

investigation, you might have found some more

1:02:02

stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Completely

1:02:04

out of line. Like,

1:02:05

it's just reverse

1:02:07

of what should be happening. Yeah. It was

1:02:10

that holding it to fit the

1:02:12

Sirhan narrative.

1:02:12

Here's the clip.

1:02:14

It's about eight

1:02:16

minutes long. I was standing

1:02:18

there just thinking, you know,

1:02:19

thinking about how many people there were and

1:02:21

how wonderful it was. Then

1:02:24

this girl came running down the stairs in the back, came running

1:02:26

down

1:02:26

the stairs, and said, we've shot him.

1:02:29

We've shot him. And I said,

1:02:31

who did you shoot?

1:02:32

And she says, we

1:02:35

shot senator candidate.

1:02:36

She had on a white dress with polka dots.

1:02:38

She was light skinned, dark

1:02:42

hair. Shit.

1:02:43

black shoes on. A boy came

1:02:45

down with her. He was about twenty three

1:02:47

years old, and he was Mexican american because

1:02:49

I can remember that because

1:02:51

I'm Mexican american.

1:02:53

Gabby, I'm

1:02:53

not gonna ask you

1:02:56

any

1:02:56

more questions. I'm not talking to

1:02:58

anyone. I do wanna talk to

1:03:00

my brother. look, I presume I don't

1:03:02

know if I place you on. I can't. Are

1:03:06

you there? Yes

1:03:08

or no? Okay.

1:03:11

Just a second.

1:03:14

You're starting under you

1:03:16

know that for

1:03:18

some reason, this was made up.

1:03:20

So here's what you have to think about

1:03:22

right now. Is it I think you

1:03:24

owe it? to send her

1:03:26

a cannon. A bait send her a

1:03:28

cannon. To come forward, be a

1:03:30

woman about this. If he and you don't

1:03:32

know, and I don't know whether he's a witness

1:03:34

right now on this phone watching what we're

1:03:36

doing in here. Don't change this debt by keeping

1:03:38

this in mind and compassion for you.

1:03:40

I wanna know why

1:03:44

I

1:03:44

don't know why you did what you did. This is a very sexiest thing.

1:03:47

I

1:03:48

I think no sex.

1:03:49

No. No. No.

1:03:52

no Sandy. I don't know why I told you, but that you can't say you

1:03:54

saw something from Verizon and I

1:03:56

didn't go back to her. I can I can

1:03:59

explain it. to investigate this, where you're gonna have to talk to them, and they

1:04:02

won't talk to you when I can do

1:04:04

this. But I know that as you get

1:04:06

older, one of these things you're gonna be

1:04:08

on my you're

1:04:10

gonna be a part of you're gonna have kids, and you

1:04:12

know that you can't live a life of a change knowing

1:04:14

that you're doing right now as well.

1:04:19

Well, maybe you don't feel

1:04:22

it. But ladies

1:04:23

and a

1:04:25

man of canning.

1:04:29

you

1:04:31

know

1:04:32

no

1:04:41

you have to pay for society

1:04:44

as i can have as wrong place

1:04:49

man

1:04:53

you need to heat

1:04:55

it I'm trying to understand. But this is a

1:04:57

very emotional thing that

1:05:00

we do.

1:05:05

I

1:05:12

see what happens. There's there's two

1:05:13

ways to approach this thing.

1:05:16

Right. A person is going to appeal to

1:05:18

you as a

1:05:20

nuisance a

1:05:22

campaign for senator Clinton. This is the

1:05:24

one that happened. The other way is for me to pull

1:05:26

up the paper, go out here and tell these people.

1:05:29

how to talk about it in the downstairs. And

1:05:31

this is a wrong place. because look, I have to

1:05:33

look at myself when I shake on

1:05:35

the market. I look at myself. Right. And right now, I have my

1:05:37

deepest compassion for you because

1:05:39

you're a young lady. And I wanna try to

1:05:41

do whatever I believe is

1:05:44

best for

1:05:51

right

1:05:59

when

1:06:02

an hour I'm

1:06:07

saying that nobody told you

1:06:09

we have structure. But

1:06:18

person.

1:06:25

It's a it's a home medicine.

1:06:38

the

1:06:40

Bye. No, ma'am. No, ma'am. Yes,

1:06:44

ma'am. But I can say, don't be

1:06:46

don't

1:06:47

be quiet

1:06:48

I'm gonna say, I'm truly holy from the

1:06:50

tell you. And I'm just gonna say, no one

1:06:53

will tell me to identify anybody

1:06:55

else.

1:06:55

Just the truth satisfied yourself. No. I must

1:06:57

seek to satisfy the family, the

1:06:59

remaining family of this time. The Japanese have

1:07:01

had an

1:07:02

impression to

1:07:04

hear prayer president Kandi, and I was senator

1:07:06

Biden Kandi, now what next? They

1:07:08

have been a big, at least,

1:07:10

a consolation to

1:07:12

them. And, sir, can you mark

1:07:14

my words in one of these days? If you're

1:07:16

warm enough, you will get a letter

1:07:18

from agriculture, personal.

1:07:21

asking you for at least let it

1:07:24

progress on this

1:07:25

aspect of

1:07:28

this investigation.

1:07:31

Kennedy,

1:07:42

the moment

1:07:47

well

1:07:50

hi

1:07:54

my as much as much as

1:07:59

you're

1:08:02

very

1:08:02

be a decent person. Same.

1:08:05

They're basically a decent person.

1:08:07

But since you are twenty years old,

1:08:09

this is gonna change your whole

1:08:11

and you're growing no past in this room right now because

1:08:13

you know that you have to make a decision to tell

1:08:15

us truthful, what's

1:08:18

honest, No. You can't

1:08:20

see that. I can't stop. You can't see

1:08:22

it with your lips. You can't see

1:08:24

it, but with your feeling, your

1:08:27

high are so distorting here, these are rinds.

1:08:29

These are rinds.

1:08:31

This didn't happen.

1:08:34

As we listen

1:08:34

to excerpts from the last twenty

1:08:37

minutes, we hear Serrano begin to

1:08:39

wear down. Sergeant Hernandez senses

1:08:41

her exhaustion and in his patronizing manner

1:08:44

begins

1:08:45

his

1:08:48

end game. And

1:08:51

I

1:08:56

can tell

1:09:00

you right you count me

1:09:00

what happened out there, and I cannot show you that

1:09:02

nobody else's I don't know what happened.

1:09:05

I don't know what happened. I

1:09:07

don't know what happened. I don't

1:09:09

know really what answer to everyone is

1:09:10

such a man. Well, thanks so much. I

1:09:12

thought if I owed

1:09:14

her no. I owed her

1:09:16

no. over and

1:09:18

over and over and over. And

1:09:20

I don't know. I I can't remember

1:09:22

somebody. I didn't like mine. I

1:09:25

can't be never a problem

1:09:27

since it's to me. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. don't know.

1:09:35

I

1:09:50

was I wasn't telling

1:09:52

you all why, because

1:09:55

they didn't tell me.

1:09:56

Well, they told

1:09:58

you candidate has been shot late,

1:09:59

shot candidate, or he shot candidate in a

1:10:02

place and started questioning you. The next thing

1:10:04

was two people. The next thing you was a

1:10:06

woman and a question.

1:10:06

But I spoke with that dress, before

1:10:09

you look very

1:10:11

young. Sure. I can see where you got yourself.

1:10:15

Well,

1:10:18

we're

1:10:18

gonna stop it right now.

1:10:20

Five percent. We're

1:10:22

gonna stop it right now.

1:10:24

I I'm

1:10:25

gonna go see if we can get an

1:10:27

auditor to come up and take a statement and stop it right now. I even

1:10:28

if

1:10:30

you're a witness, I

1:10:33

don't think you should talk to the

1:10:35

police about your attorney

1:10:36

there because that's absolutely outrageous. Yeah. That just flipped

1:10:38

on her. I I don't understand what's going on

1:10:40

there.

1:10:42

that

1:10:42

it was an interrogation. Yeah. Of

1:10:44

her. Yeah. Completely. And

1:10:45

and I

1:10:47

would say, well, fuck

1:10:48

yourself. I'm leaving now. Like,

1:10:50

I'm getting I'm not talking to you

1:10:52

like that. Yeah. She was a twenty year old

1:10:55

girl. She was, you know, I guess, scared --

1:10:57

Mhmm. -- thought she was, you know, trying to

1:10:59

just do what was right. I mean, by

1:11:01

the end, she agreed to sign their statement saying that

1:11:03

she didn't actually see it even though she thinks

1:11:05

she did it crazy. She signed

1:11:07

their statement and you

1:11:10

know, I love how he's bringing up. I

1:11:12

don't love it, but it pisses me off. You know,

1:11:14

one day you're gonna be a mother. Like, just manipulating

1:11:16

her. You're gonna have to live with yourself in the

1:11:18

shame. of this lie. But why is

1:11:20

it a lie? Bobby might be in the

1:11:22

room tonight. He might be watching us. Do

1:11:24

you want him to see this? A

1:11:27

zoo. Let him rest peacefully. Ethel Kennedy

1:11:29

might send you a letter one day

1:11:31

thanking you for letting this unrest. Why

1:11:34

couldn't she have seen girl

1:11:36

in a polka dot dress say something,

1:11:38

but she just misheard her. It

1:11:39

doesn't mean that

1:11:41

the girl in the poked that dress wasn't

1:11:43

there. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, if

1:11:46

the because in their minds, they had

1:11:47

so many

1:11:50

witnesses

1:11:50

saying the polka dot dress that they had

1:11:52

to kill it. Right. And in their mind, she

1:11:54

was the one that went on the news

1:11:57

and started this frenzy. So if they can get her

1:11:59

to admit

1:11:59

that she didn't

1:12:00

see it, well then, oh, everyone just heard

1:12:02

her story and then their minds went

1:12:05

watch. She's the origin that. So she's the one who has

1:12:07

to be Because she's sold to that

1:12:09

report now. Yeah. That

1:12:11

makes sense. Yeah. It's

1:12:13

fucking wild. you

1:12:14

would think that she killed somebody?

1:12:16

You what? Like she was on a You

1:12:18

what? Being a caregiver from Again, don't ever

1:12:20

sit down in a room with police without

1:12:22

your fucking attorney there ever. I don't care. What

1:12:24

the scenario is? What whether

1:12:26

you're a witness, a defendant, whatever

1:12:29

it is, don't do

1:12:30

it ever. I don't think sir Han was questioned that hard.

1:12:32

sir and was question that hard

1:12:34

Perfect. After

1:12:37

detective Hernandez broke Serrano,

1:12:39

She agreed to sign the LAPD's paperwork, essentially forcing her to say she

1:12:41

was wrong about this girl on the polka dot

1:12:43

dress. At this

1:12:46

point, the police called off the APB stated that the night

1:12:48

of the shooting Surano was hysterical

1:12:50

and made a mistake on what

1:12:53

she thinks she saw and heard.

1:12:55

They stated that people probably saw Serrano's interview on TV and the

1:12:58

rumors and quote, sightings about this

1:13:00

girl spun out of

1:13:02

control even though she didn't

1:13:04

exist. they stated no girl on

1:13:06

a polka dot dress was present that night. So essentially by getting her to admit that

1:13:08

she was she

1:13:11

didn't see it. were cutting off the

1:13:13

head of the snake. No. Oh, everything else from that just circled. In nineteen eighty

1:13:15

eight, when the LAPD case

1:13:19

files were finally released, it was discovered

1:13:21

that they had interviews and statements from dozens of witnesses who described seeing

1:13:23

a girl in a polka dot dress with

1:13:26

two other men at the hotel that

1:13:28

night. All

1:13:30

of these statements were buried and

1:13:32

never followed up on. Once they had broken Serrano,

1:13:34

they consider this issue resolved. Dozens. Dozens. Yeah.

1:13:39

Finally, there's witnessed John Feike. Feike's story, if you take

1:13:42

it for what he says, is a

1:13:46

wild one. and it's covered in detail in journalist

1:13:48

Fernando Faroe's book, The

1:13:50

Pocadot File, on the Robert

1:13:52

f Kennedy Killing. not a great

1:13:54

name for a book. That's not. It's

1:13:56

wordy. It's a little word.

1:13:58

It's also not the the most well written book.

1:14:01

most well written book At the

1:14:03

time, working for the Hollywood citizen news

1:14:06

Oh, I watched them every night.

1:14:09

Did you? No. I believe

1:14:13

this was a

1:14:16

paper. Oh. Fara

1:14:18

kept records of his interactions with Fehe. Fehe again being the witness, Farah,

1:14:20

the journalist who

1:14:23

wrote the book. His

1:14:26

interactions with Fe he began shortly after the

1:14:28

shootings happened. Forest states that Fe he

1:14:31

reached out to him after

1:14:33

being blown off by authorities. To my knowledge,

1:14:35

this is the only book that is fully dedicated to

1:14:37

the girl in the polka dot dress

1:14:39

theory. In short, Fe he was

1:14:41

at the ambassador hotel the morning

1:14:43

of the assassination. He stated he was in

1:14:45

a coffee shop waiting on a business meeting when he struck up a conversation with a woman who appeared

1:14:47

to be nervous about

1:14:51

something. In Feiyi's mind, was trying to hit on this attractive girl, but

1:14:53

the more she spoke to him, the more he

1:14:55

felt something was

1:14:58

off. He said the girl spoke about how much she hated Bobby

1:15:00

Kennedy and said, quote, mister Kennedy will

1:15:03

be taken care of. Hey,

1:15:05

hey Doll

1:15:06

face. Let me poke

1:15:08

at your dot. Something like

1:15:09

that. Something like that. Right. I

1:15:11

don't think she just starts talking

1:15:13

ago. No. No. No. No. No. Mister Kennedy. I don't think she was in the COVID address at this

1:15:16

point in Kennedy. And also, in

1:15:18

the note, Feike was a married

1:15:20

man. So

1:15:23

he kinda wanted to k Fave a lot of this even when he was working with

1:15:25

Farah and he wanted his wife to find out about what

1:15:27

he did this

1:15:30

day. So this girl went on to tell Fahe she was being watched

1:15:32

and followed and that she would soon

1:15:34

need to leave the country. Fahe he

1:15:36

then told Farah that the lady asked

1:15:39

to tag along as he on some

1:15:41

sales calls that day. Fehi trying to learn more about why she was

1:15:43

nervous and probably wanting to get, you know, as Dick

1:15:48

sucked, wanted to know more about what her

1:15:50

k Kennedy comments met, so he agreed to let her come along. I gotta say that whole

1:15:53

thing with

1:15:56

saying, like, that

1:15:56

you need to get out of the country and

1:15:58

you're being followed. Like, I don't want you to I don't want to hang out with you anymore. I'm

1:15:59

on a leave. Enjoy that spring.

1:16:02

not coming with me on my job.

1:16:05

Well,

1:16:06

or do you say this girl's crazy and she probably sucks at me and cock? And it up George

1:16:09

Constance on the

1:16:12

hotel road. your hand

1:16:14

costs to a pad in your underwear. What do have two Two dollars. wish afternoon

1:16:16

from two

1:16:20

dollars. So as

1:16:21

they're driving, Fehi notices that they are being followed. Even when he pulls off

1:16:23

at different stops, the car

1:16:26

just keeps following them.

1:16:28

Meanwhile, this girl's acting still nervous and continues going

1:16:30

on about how Kennedy's gonna be taken care of. Fehe

1:16:32

also mentioned that throughout

1:16:34

the course of their day together,

1:16:37

this girl gave him several different names,

1:16:39

saying she had to protect him and not get him involved. Eventually, Feike drove her

1:16:42

back to the ambassador hotel and

1:16:44

dropped off

1:16:47

around seven fifteen that the night of the assassination. He said

1:16:49

she wanted him to join her, but he

1:16:52

figured he'd better not. By this point,

1:16:54

he was freaked out by everything she was

1:16:56

saying. After the shooting,

1:16:58

Fehe told Farah that he went to the police and the FBI to tell him what he had witnessed but felt

1:17:00

like he wasn't being taken seriously, so

1:17:02

that's why he reached out to Farah.

1:17:07

how about he reached out to the FBI, I don't know,

1:17:09

before the shooting. Hey, this

1:17:12

girl says she wants to take

1:17:14

care of me. And I'm like, you're on

1:17:16

a road trip in the counties. And I

1:17:18

kinda took them a

1:17:19

full day of just

1:17:21

hanging out with this woman to finally

1:17:23

get creeped out by what she was saying. It's like Fahe's day off

1:17:25

or something driving around Italy. But he was

1:17:27

just a dick sock

1:17:30

with a girl in a polka dress. who's talking about she's gonna kill tonight.

1:17:32

Okay. So while this

1:17:34

story does seem a

1:17:38

little bit absurd, It's important in a

1:17:39

little bit. things. First at the time of the

1:17:42

reporting, all at the time of

1:17:44

reporting all this

1:17:46

to authorities and then to Farah, News of the alleged girl on the polka dress

1:17:48

had broken, but other than

1:17:50

the dress, no other identifying

1:17:52

issues

1:17:54

were well known. Two, Farah

1:17:55

took Feje to a

1:17:56

sketch artist to have them draw a rendering

1:17:58

of what this girl looked

1:17:59

like based

1:18:02

on Feje's description. Once done, Farah checked

1:18:04

with Serrano and deep dipiero who both

1:18:06

confirmed that while not a perfect

1:18:08

match, the features in the sketch

1:18:10

were very similar dress looking like.

1:18:13

Finally, during the course of

1:18:14

Fara's interviews,

1:18:15

he learned from

1:18:18

Fehi that the girl He

1:18:20

was with that day of the

1:18:22

assassination, had also mentioned she practiced Rosa Christianism and that she had recently

1:18:24

met a woman

1:18:27

named Anna Schnall. more entrepreneurial, and a little

1:18:29

bit here. It's also interesting to

1:18:30

note, before closing out on the Coconut Dress Theory,

1:18:32

in their twenty

1:18:35

eighteen book titled the assassination of

1:18:37

Robert Kennedy authors Tim Tate and Brad Johnson believe that they had finally

1:18:39

identified the Grandma Pocadotte dress

1:18:43

as Elaine Neil. They believe

1:18:45

her husband worked for the CIA and he was linked to their mind control

1:18:48

experiments. Unfortunately, Neil

1:18:50

passed away in twenty

1:18:52

twelve and

1:18:54

her husband had died years prior. So there wasn't

1:18:56

much more for them to follow-up on or

1:18:58

to get in contact with them. But

1:19:01

the fact that they believe her husband

1:19:03

was linked to the CIA and mind control

1:19:05

experiments does lead us into our next theory.

1:19:07

If you remember from part one,

1:19:09

we briefly touched on the fact

1:19:12

that Cirhan engaged in self hypnosis while practicing Rosa Christianism

1:19:14

and was hypnotized by both the prosecuting and defense

1:19:16

teams. journalist

1:19:19

Robert Kiser was allowed to sit in on these hypnosis

1:19:21

sessions. He stated after the fact that

1:19:23

Surhan appeared to him to

1:19:25

be very easily hypnotized by

1:19:28

the psychiatrists. And like we said

1:19:30

last week, many witnesses stated that Saran appeared very calm in the wake of the shooting.

1:19:33

He had

1:19:36

peaceful eyes quote, peacefulize is what they

1:19:38

say. And even while being bombarded by people trying to wrestle him down

1:19:40

and disarm him, he was

1:19:42

calm and didn't seem to be

1:19:46

exciting or struck by what was happening? We

1:19:48

are a non

1:19:49

believer in hypnosis. What do you think

1:19:51

about his ability to be hyped?

1:19:53

I think it's his bunk. And we'll

1:19:55

we'll say that for the end. Okay. In two thousand

1:19:57

seven, because it all ties

1:19:59

in,

1:19:59

it all ties

1:20:01

in. In two thousand seven, Sarahan's new

1:20:04

defense team began working with doctor

1:20:06

Daniel Brown, an associate clinical professor

1:20:09

of psychology at Harvard. Doctor Brown met

1:20:11

with Surhan over the course of six different

1:20:13

two day sessions. In twenty eleven,

1:20:15

Brown stated an affidavit

1:20:17

submitted for a parole hearing that it was his belief

1:20:19

that Surhan did not have any form of

1:20:21

personality disorder nor any childhood

1:20:24

trauma disorder. and

1:20:26

that he he felt Sarhan was

1:20:28

not acting of his own volition the

1:20:31

night of the assassination. He found it

1:20:33

odd that Sarhan remember as many of the

1:20:35

tragic events he witnessed earlier in his life,

1:20:37

but could not remember actually shooting

1:20:39

Bobby Kennedy. Braun went on to say

1:20:41

that sir Han was one of the

1:20:43

most hypnotizable people he had ever worked with.

1:20:46

So this leads to the theory of the centurion candidate. With sir Han, sir Han,

1:20:48

hypno programmed to

1:20:51

assassinate Bobby Kennedy. Ian,

1:20:54

I

1:20:54

think you have a quick interlude

1:20:56

here about MK Ultra. So

1:20:58

with the

1:20:59

surhance are in hypnosis

1:21:01

defense, MK Ultra gets brought up a lot, but we're actually talking about

1:21:03

Project Artichoke, which was

1:21:06

the precursor to MK

1:21:08

Ultra. remember

1:21:10

back to that episode how it went. Project

1:21:13

Bluebird quickly changed into

1:21:16

artichoke on August twentieth nineteen

1:21:18

fifty one, and then finally to MK Ultra in fifty three, all of those on mind

1:21:24

control. back in our MKL

1:21:26

trip. So we talked that in nineteen seventy three, director of the CIA, Richard Hallum, ordered

1:21:29

that all the

1:21:32

files regarding any type of mind control

1:21:34

work be destroyed. That was as soon as m

1:21:35

culture was found out. It's just a common theme tonight.

1:21:37

Just destroy

1:21:38

shit. It's the easy way out.

1:21:42

Around

1:21:42

thirty thousand of those files

1:21:45

ended up being found through hearings

1:21:47

and some foyer requests that

1:21:50

took years and years to process. We finally got

1:21:52

some of that information on what the

1:21:54

CIA was doing. But if you

1:21:57

believe them at face value, that they

1:21:59

started this in the early fifties and

1:22:01

it ended mid seventies. I

1:22:03

mean, that's gotta be a lot

1:22:05

of paperwork that was destroyed. They only have

1:22:07

thirty thousand left over. Sure.

1:22:09

Sure. So Robert sole purpose

1:22:11

was to determine whether a person

1:22:14

could be involuntarily made to carry out an assassination. That's all that project was.

1:22:16

We know this

1:22:19

from a memo sent January

1:22:22

of nineteen fifty two that asked, quote, can we get control of an individual to the point where he do

1:22:24

our bidding against his

1:22:27

will and even against fundamental

1:22:31

laws of nature such as

1:22:33

self preservation. That's that's

1:22:35

a shoe. Like, that's

1:22:38

for real. That's wild. A

1:22:40

later artichoke memo described the interrogation

1:22:42

of a foreign national CIA agent who, quote,

1:22:44

speaks and understands

1:22:47

English quite well. The artichoke interrogation

1:22:49

was done in a safe house. The subject was taken to the safe house in a

1:22:51

quote, covert car, which picked

1:22:54

them up at a secure location.

1:22:58

at the safe house, he was given a standard interrogation, which

1:23:01

was just like a pretty

1:23:03

easy questioning and

1:23:05

then some whiskey. This was followed by two

1:23:07

grams of phenobarbital, which put this

1:23:09

guy to sleep. The next Aali

1:23:12

detector test was given and

1:23:14

the subject was given intravenious chemicals.

1:23:16

Following the chemically assisted interrogation,

1:23:18

according to CIA terminology, the,

1:23:22

quote, artichoke techniques were applied

1:23:24

in three stages, quote, a false memory was

1:23:26

introduced to the subject's mind without his conscious

1:23:29

control of the process, which took

1:23:31

fifteen to twenty minutes. The

1:23:34

procedure was repeated this time taking

1:23:36

forty to forty five minutes. The

1:23:38

procedure was repeated again with

1:23:41

the interrogation added. The artichoke team used

1:23:44

medications including barbituates in

1:23:46

amphetamines, hypnosis, interrogation, and

1:23:49

deliberate induction of

1:23:51

false memories of a procedure. The

1:23:53

subject was told that part of what he remembered was actually

1:23:55

a dream. The artichoke team

1:23:58

concluded that

1:23:58

the procedure

1:23:59

was successful,

1:24:02

The memo said quote, the subject although

1:24:04

not having specific amnesia for

1:24:07

the artichoke treatment, nevertheless was

1:24:09

completely confused and memory was

1:24:11

vague and false. Can you imagine

1:24:14

doing that to American citizens? purportedly American citizens. Sir,

1:24:16

Amazon,

1:24:16

American

1:24:19

citizen. XIA officer,

1:24:20

Edward Hunter, who worked

1:24:22

on artichoke, talked about implanting false

1:24:24

memories that

1:24:27

work that was done by Chinese intelligence agencies. And that's

1:24:29

where we got the idea from

1:24:31

this from

1:24:32

was

1:24:34

from China. But he talked about how we passed them up as

1:24:36

in that we figured out

1:24:38

how to change someone's mind

1:24:40

instead of just influencing their

1:24:43

beliefs. He's like, quote, The Chinese

1:24:45

masses were right in coining the phrases brainwashing and brain

1:24:47

changing. There is a difference

1:24:51

between the two. brainwashing is indoctrination,

1:24:53

a comparatively simple procedure. The brain

1:24:56

changing is immeasurably

1:24:58

more sinister and complicated. where

1:25:02

you merely have to undergo a brain cleansing rid of poisons

1:25:04

in order to

1:25:07

have a brain changing you

1:25:10

must empty your mind of

1:25:12

old ideas and recollections. In

1:25:14

a brain changing, a person

1:25:16

specific recollections, of some past period

1:25:18

in his life are wiped away as completely as if they never happened. Then to

1:25:21

fill in these gaps

1:25:22

and memory the ideas which

1:25:26

the authorities want this person to,

1:25:28

quote, remember, are put into

1:25:31

his brain. Hemmatism and drugs

1:25:33

are cutting procedures that plague the body

1:25:35

and do not necessarily require any

1:25:37

marked physical violence or

1:25:39

required for a brain

1:25:41

changing. China evidently was not so, quote, advanced

1:25:43

as yet. She was using brainwashing, and when that didn't

1:25:46

work resorted to the simpler purge

1:25:48

system, which

1:25:51

would mean, you know, killing off people. Mhmm. But in

1:25:54

time, she will use the brain

1:25:56

changing system

1:25:58

too. the way he's saying

1:25:59

it's a brain

1:25:59

changing system that the CIA

1:26:01

figured

1:26:02

out. Scary. That's all for

1:26:05

real. That's not a conspiracy stuff. That's

1:26:07

written. Yeah. This this is all, like, factual information.

1:26:09

So it's definitely possible

1:26:11

that sir Han could have

1:26:13

been subjected to something like this because it's

1:26:15

not out of the realm. Right? Of

1:26:17

what

1:26:17

they wanted

1:26:18

to accomplish. We don't

1:26:20

know if

1:26:21

they had accomplished it or not.

1:26:23

I guess, sir Ham

1:26:23

would be it if that, you know, and he would

1:26:25

be a successful. Like you said, not an

1:26:27

American citizen? A little bit of

1:26:30

the desirability there. And if you

1:26:32

remember last week, we

1:26:34

had said in nineteen sixty six, he was working at the stables, training

1:26:37

to become

1:26:40

a jockey, He was involved in that accident

1:26:42

we fell off the horse and had a head injury. Official medical records show that sir

1:26:44

Han was never

1:26:47

admitted to the hospital he

1:26:49

received a few stitches in his

1:26:51

head and was sent

1:26:52

home that day. However, sir Han recalls something

1:26:54

different. While under hypnosis

1:26:55

with doctor Brown,

1:26:58

Cerhan

1:26:58

recalled being in the hospital for

1:27:00

several days, maybe even up to

1:27:02

three weeks, in a room filled with

1:27:05

other beds. the entire time he was

1:27:07

in and out of consciousness. This leads then to

1:27:09

the speculation that sir Han may have been involved in

1:27:11

the MK Ultra program. Perhaps

1:27:14

sir Han proved to be the best candidate

1:27:16

because again, as doctor Brown had

1:27:18

stated, he was very easily hypnotizable.

1:27:20

What I think is interesting is

1:27:22

Two

1:27:23

things. First, Ian,

1:27:24

you kept

1:27:25

talking about false memory. But in

1:27:27

Saruman's mind, he

1:27:29

has zero memory of

1:27:31

the shooting. So could that have

1:27:33

just

1:27:33

been like they didn't they didn't

1:27:35

get that part

1:27:36

or they were just gonna

1:27:38

leave it blank on purpose? just thought that

1:27:41

was interesting when you were talking about that now. They didn't fill

1:27:43

him in with a false memory. He just has no memory. So

1:27:46

though you know, my

1:27:47

understanding of it would be

1:27:49

that, like, if

1:27:50

it actually worked

1:27:52

the way that

1:27:54

they wanted it to that a

1:27:56

person could just be you could just turn it on that

1:27:58

they're like, okay, this is what I have to do. I need to go

1:28:00

assess

1:28:02

Anthem. And then as soon as it's over, they hear a

1:28:04

trigger word or something. They come out

1:28:07

of it, and they just,

1:28:09

like, I I don't know what just

1:28:11

happened. and and that's gonna make sense

1:28:11

for what we're about to talk about. The other thing of note, and I

1:28:13

didn't have this in the notes, but when you talked about it,

1:28:16

you said that there

1:28:18

could be drugs or hypnosis

1:28:20

used. There were reports that when Sohan was drinking

1:28:22

his Tom Collins in the hotel bar, he was he

1:28:24

was talking with the lady in the polka

1:28:26

dot dress. Like, he was with her.

1:28:29

and she kept talking to the bartender.

1:28:31

There's theories that almost, you know, he might have been

1:28:32

putting something or she

1:28:33

might have been putting something in

1:28:36

his drink.

1:28:39

ahead

1:28:39

of time before the shooting. because then remember he said

1:28:41

he gets he drank a few drinks.

1:28:43

He he rompers

1:28:45

going to his car, Oh, I'm too drunk to drive home. I'm gonna

1:28:47

go back and get some coffee. Boom. He

1:28:50

memorized nothing after that till he's being

1:28:53

tackled by the people. And, like,

1:28:54

he went to the hospital in

1:28:58

sixty six. Artichoke

1:29:00

turned in or was,

1:29:03

you know, absorbed by MK

1:29:03

Ultra in nineteen fifty three. Just because that happened

1:29:06

in fifty three didn't mean that artichoke

1:29:09

stopped. I mean, they continue to push forward with this

1:29:11

just it all fell under the umbrella

1:29:14

of MK Ultra. Right.

1:29:15

Another bit

1:29:16

of information, interesting information that

1:29:18

came up while sir Han was under hypnosis with doctor Brown

1:29:21

sometime around two thousand

1:29:22

eight. While under hypnosis, sir

1:29:24

Han made mention of being with a