1:10

Music.

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It's your host Mara Glatzel and you are listening to the Needy Podcast. Here at Needy, we are,

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devoted to sharing frank conversations and true stories about what it means to meet your

1:40

needs consistently, messily, and sustainably. Needy is a listener-funded podcast. Your contributions

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or interruption. To become a member of the needy inner circle and to get information

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about today's episode, dance on over to the needy podcast.com. Now onto today's show.

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Music.

2:13

Hello everyone. Welcome back to the needy podcast after our summer hiatus. I am so excited

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to share today's very special guest with you. I'm here today with Jen Lumanlon. Jen hosts the Your

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Parenting Mojo podcast, which was named Best Researching-Based Parenting Podcast by Lifehacker

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and has been downloaded over 3 million times. After attending Berkeley and Yale and following

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a traditional career path in sustainability consulting, Jen found that parenting was her

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toughest challenge yet. She went back to school for a master's degree in psychology focused on

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in child development and in education and has trained as a co-active coach

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to share what she has learned with other parents. She is the author of the brand new book, Parenting Beyond Power,

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how to use connection and collaboration to transform your family and the world.

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For more information on Jen, please visit yourparentingmojo.com.

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And I have to say as a personal little tidbit, I highly recommend Jen's book.

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I've been reading it this summer. It is wonderful and just your luck, it came out yesterday.

3:24

All right, welcome to the Needy Podcast, Jen. I'm so excited that you're here. I did say to you

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before we started recording how much I have been loving it. I got a sneak peek at your book. I've

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been loving it and I cannot wait to talk about needs and parenting with you today.

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Thanks for having me. It's great to be here with a fellow needs enthusiast.

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I know, it's true. That is exactly how I felt while reading your book. I was like,

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a needs, how do we meet our needs and our children's needs at the same time if that is not

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the question on so many parents' minds? I don't know what is. But first I want to start with you,

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and maybe you could tell us a little bit about your work, about yourself, what you do,

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and most importantly why you do it. Yeah, so I'm a human being, a parent. I live in Berkeley,

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California. I run a podcast called Your Parenting Mojo, and it is research-based information to

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help kids thrive is sort of the tagline. Basically, what I do is take a really in-depth look at the

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academic research on a topic related to parenting or child development. And it was really designed

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to be the resource that I wanted when my daughter was young, because I would get all of these

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clickbait emails from websites that shall remain unnamed saying,

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five ways to tell if your child has a developmental delay.

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And of course, they're just trying to sell advertising on their site. And even when they

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did mention a study, it would never indicate, well, does this latest study you're reporting on.

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Confirm or refute the previous 30 years of research on this subject? And that's kind of

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important, isn't it? And so I wanted to understand all of those things. And so,

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you know, as autistic people do when they don't know they're autistic yet, they go back to school

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and they study and they get master's in psychology and focus on child development and another one in Education.

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So that they can understand how to raise their child. And they're like, well, if I'm learning

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all this stuff, then maybe I should share it with other people. So I should launch a podcast.

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So I did. And so that's sort of how I came to be here and over time have been very much on a

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journey of understanding my white privilege, understanding what patriarchy is, not really

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really being able to understand what that is beyond, well, I hold doors open for men,

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they hold doors open for me. Is patriarchy a big thing in my life? I don't really know.

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And so, all the threads sort of coming together as my thinking developed and ultimately ended

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up in this book, which hopefully helps parents to see the real reasons why they're facing

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some of the challenges that they're facing and how embedded these are in our culture. This is not.

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Individual failings, and we're, I imagine, going to talk a lot about that. Also, their children's

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difficult behavior is not your child's individual failing. There's a lot underneath that that

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leads to it, and it's something that can be addressed and that we can move towards meeting

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our needs as parents and our children's needs as well and be in a fundamentally different

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relationship with our child that is joyful and respectful and not in the you will respect me way

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that we grew up in because I'm bigger and older than you, but in a genuinely mutually respectful

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way. And it's so much fun and it's so much easier. Yeah. So what is so compelling about this for me

7:00

is that this is like the white whale of parenting conversations. Like, is this even possible

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actually, to have a relationship with my child that's mutually respectful and where both of our

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needs are being met. You know, in my work, I see so often that so many parents were, especially,

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you know, those of us who were socialized and raised as women, that being a parent means

7:31

having no needs and then also having so many needs and that kind of push and pull. So your

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Your book is called Parenting Beyond Power, how to use connection and collaboration

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to transform your family and the world. So for those of you who are listening that book goes on sale this week when this podcast comes out

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We're recording it a few months ahead of time And i'm curious jen what it looks like for you,

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at this point in your life To meet your needs on a daily basis. Like what do you try to make space for? What do you try to prioritize?

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What does that look like for you? I get a lot out of of making connections between ideas. The dopamine hit from that, for me, is really cool. And it

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often happens in podcast interviews, which is really nice where I connect ideas in a way that

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I haven't connected them before. And so work is actually very fulfilling for me. The research

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I'm doing right now, I'm doing a pretty deep dive into polyvagal theory, which everybody

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likes to quote. And I think not many people actually fully understand. And frankly,

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I don't fully understand it because it's really deep into neuroscientific research.

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And so, how much of this is actually, you know, is there evidence for? I'm trying to get deep into

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that. And so, understanding that is really profoundly satisfying for me. That meets a

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deep need of mine for competence, for sort of intellectual curiosity and stimulation.

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In addition to that, rest is huge. And so I'm actually pretty good about making adequate time for rest.

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Sometimes I get tripped up when I wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back

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to sleep. And it sort of sets me on a cycle for a few days that means that my ability to cope during

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the day is less than it otherwise would be.

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But I sort of, you know, I know the steps to take to get back on the right cycle again.

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And then exercise is really big as well. And I definitely don't do that any every day anymore, but I've sort of, I think I found

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my baseline, which is one long bike ride a week on a weekend morning and one something

9:44

else during the week. And if I can maintain that, then things are a lot better than if I can't.

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I like the way that you talk about how, you know, it's not all or nothing, right? It's like,

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this thing is important to me. I need this thing. If I can't even get maybe the maximum

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experience of that, I still am going to strive for something in there.

10:11

Yeah. And I think that's a super, super important part to understand, right? Is when I talk about

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a bike ride, you know, I could vary the length of the bike ride. I could vary where I do it.

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So there's more or less commute time to it. And a bike ride is sort of a strategy that I have

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chosen to meet that need. And most of the time I'm able to use that strategy, which is awesome

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because I enjoy it. But there are also times when using that strategy is not possible and I could

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use a different strategy of going for a run or of going for a ride with my daughter or of doing one

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of 50 other ways that I could get exercise. If I can understand that my need is to move my body,

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My need is not for a bike ride, right?

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That is the strategy I've chosen to meet my need for moving my body.

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And when I can think about it flexibly in that way, then it opens up so many

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potential options for ways that I can meet that need, and I'm fortunate that

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most of the time I can use my preferred strategy, but it's not the only way to go about doing it.

11:08

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so let's pause here for a moment because the listeners of this podcast are very

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well acquainted with how I talk about needs and the way that you talk about needs is, I find,

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very familiar and lovely. But could you perhaps give them a primer of how you think about needs,

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how you think about strategies to meet those needs? And this was a perfect example of that,

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but just to give some words to that language.

11:38

Yeah, yeah. And so for listeners who are familiar with nonviolent communication,

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which was developed by Marshall Rosenberg, this is basically, you know, it's that.

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So I find that it helps because we tend to get ourselves caught up on the strategy that we have

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chosen to meet our need. And if we can actually kind of walk that back a little bit and see what's

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actually going on here, what am I really trying to do, then we can find other ways to meet our

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needs. And so one of my favorite examples is our dishwasher has been broken for a long time,

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but when it was working, unloading, it was kind of my job and I never really agreed to that.

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It just kind of informally became that because I usually get up earlier and I can do it while

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my oatmeal is cooking. And it was getting to a point where I was like, you know what,

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I'm finding this really irritating. Why am I always the one that unloads the dishwasher?

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And so one day I got super irritated about it and I picked a fight with my husband

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about it. And it didn't go well, surprisingly enough. And later on, I was thinking,

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wait, what's my need here? What am I actually trying to do? Oh, my need is for more collaboration.

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I want to feel like we're on the same team. And when I am unloading the dishwasher every single

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freaking morning while he's still lying in bed. I don't feel like we're on a team.

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And the awesome part about understanding that about myself is that there are so many ways to meet that need so i could.

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Ask him to unload the dishwasher some of the time and chances are he be willing to do it probably not at the same time i would have done it and if i can be flexible enough to accommodate that then it's gonna go a lot better also i could have gone to him and said you know what i'm feeling a little overwhelmed right now i have a lot going on

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and I would love to feel as though we're more on the same team than I do. Could we talk about that?"

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And then, chances are, he would have been very willing to have that conversation.

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And then we could have brainstormed, well, how can we create space for you? I can take our daughter

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out when you're working to give you some space. I can do pickups and drop-offs at her nut school

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program that she goes to some days a week. I could cook dinner. I could go grocery shopping. I could

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do all of these things to help you feel like we're on the same team and to feel less overwhelmed.

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That is a fundamentally different kind of conversation from.

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You need to unload the dishwasher, because I have decided that is the strategy,

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the only strategy that is going to meet my needs.

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It strikes me that we had started this conversation at the beginning thinking about

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parents and this idea of that being a parent and also having your needs met and also having

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having your child's needs met. And then as we're discussing this example, thinking about how really that ecosystem,

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where so much of this work as well as happening

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between parental units, between caregivers, between whatever web of grownups are involved in that

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in our individual families, but that that adds yet another dimension

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of whose needs are important and how are we thinking in terms of collaborating

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so that as many and as much of our needs are being met.

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As much of the time as possible, which can be a tall order. It can. It doesn't have to be.

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Yeah. Do you find that people come to you feeling like it's impossible?

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Oh, yeah. Truly impossible. Because I can think, even as we're having this conversation,

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that I have conversations with so many people who are just like, it's just, it is, it is them or me.

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It's just not possible for us both to get our needs met or all three of us.

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And I think a real reason why that is, is because we get fixated on the strategy

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because we think the only way that I'm going to get my quote unquote need met

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is if I can go for a bike ride, if my husband will unload the dishwasher, when actually there

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are so many different ways to meet that need if we can have the cognitive flexibility to be able to,

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understand what's really going on here. What need am I actually trying to meet underneath that,

15:56

which is the collaboration, not the dishwasher? If we can bring it to that level, then I would

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estimate probably 90% of the time we can meet two people's needs. Around 7% of the time, maybe we

16:10

can't and then I set a boundary and when I set a boundary I'm essentially saying I don't see a way

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to meet both of our needs right now and I mourn that loss between us and I know what my need is

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and I'm going to prioritise my need at this moment.

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And then the other 3% of the time, we're saying, I can't find our needs or I see that our needs are different and you need to change your behavior.

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And most of the parents who are coming to me are... Those numbers are flipped.

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We're going to limits first. You have to change your behavior.

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And so boundaries very often isn't even a thing because for female identifying parents,

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we were trained not to have boundaries. We were trained that it is not okay for you to say that

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this is not okay. And so many parents don't even know how to set a boundary and don't even know

17:04

that they have needs, nevermind how to identify them. So those numbers tend to get pretty backwards.

17:10

Yeah. And we have modeling for that, right? You need to change your behavior.

17:13

Yes, and that has some, you know, some cultural stuff attached to it.

17:20

And that our parents did this with us because they were, I mean, implicitly or explicitly

17:32

looking out into the world and saying, you, child, are not going to be successful in this,

17:38

world in the way that you are. But I love you, and I want the best for you. And I think it's better that I hurt you a little bit now so that you don't get hurt

17:50

big time by the bigger world.

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So you need to stop being so big, stop being so overwhelming, stop all of these things

17:58

that I find difficult, put them in a box, pretend they don't exist.

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And then I will reward you with belonging in our family when you're able to do that

18:06

successfully enough. that will tell me that you are ready to go out into the world and to be accepted in the world.

18:14

Yeah, it is something that you write about in your book so clearly. And so, I mean, it is so painful to think about it in that way. And even to see, you know, thinking again to the relationship between parents or caregivers, that we also see that like what it means to have a successful relationship means to diminish your needs and prioritize the needs of your partner.

18:44

Partner or partners, and that that is what relational success looks like.

18:50

And so we get it from all angles and, and also we have needs that,

18:56

that are not diminishable. And that so often we blame ourselves for that. Yes. And this is perceived to be an individual failing.

19:06

And if you get bad enough at it, then you get something diagnosable and you can take medication and fix it because all of this is your problem. It is not a societal problem.

19:19

There's nothing about our culture that is difficult for people to navigate and therefore

19:24

there is nothing about our culture that should be changed. I guess what I see is our culture hurts,

19:33

people. There are some groups of people that it hurts much more profoundly than others,

19:38

but frankly, it hurts everybody. And so why are we still doing this? Why are we keeping these systems going? And.

19:52

Just as these systems were perpetuated in the ways that our families shaped us,

19:59

that our parents told us to stop being so much, we will perpetuate these systems in our

20:04

relationship with our children as well, unless we decide to do something differently.

20:11

I hope that doesn't come across as a massive burden, right? Like, oh, I'm just struggling

20:16

day-to-day as it is, and now I have to fix all of the world's problems at the same time.

20:20

I think what I tried to convey in the book, and I hope this comes across, is that when we can be in

20:27

this kind of relationship with our child where we are seeing and meeting both of our needs on a

20:31

a regular basis, everything gets easier. Everything gets easier because the resistance that you're

20:39

seeing from your child right now, the hitting, the stalling, the difficult behavior, whatever it is.

20:44

Is your child's way of saying, I have unmet needs and I want to get those met.

20:51

And we used to resist in that way as well when we were little, but we learned to stuff it down,

20:56

put it in a box, stop expressing that. Our children haven't learned that yet.

21:00

And so we can learn to see their resistance. I mean, frankly, it's a gift. It's a gift that tells

21:06

us I have an unmet need. And when we can use it in that way and look underneath that behavior,

21:14

and it seems like the thing to fix is how do I get my child to stop hitting?

21:18

When actually the thing to look for is why is my child doing this? What need is underneath this

21:24

difficult behavior, then I can start to help them to meet that need on a more regular basis which

21:31

which also coincidentally meets my needs for peace and calm and ease and rest in my house,

21:37

and in my family.

21:39

Yeah. So let's get into it because something that I'm thinking, even as you share that example,

21:45

is that so, and this is why I wrote my book, is that so few of us have a vocabulary for what

21:53

is even possible to need, for what our children may be needing. And I would love to dive deeper

22:00

into the parenting aspect of this conversation with the quote from your book, if you don't mind

22:07

reading it. Yeah, over time I noticed two parallel trends. I was working with parents who had a lot

22:13

of questions about their children's behavior that mostly boiled down to how do I get my child to...

22:21

And at the same time the parents asking these questions were hurting. They were exhausted from

22:26

working multiple jobs or spending 24-7 with their children or running from one after-school activity

22:31

to the next to try to give their child the best start. They were at the end of their rope because

22:36

their child resisted them every step of the way, throwing tantrums, stalling, talking back, being

22:41

defiant. And they felt completely isolated because they didn't have a village or even a relationship

22:46

with their family members where they felt they could discuss anything meaningful.

22:52

Eventually, I saw the connection between these ideas. These parents were exhausted because they

22:56

were swimming in the white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist-based view of scarcity,

23:01

where individuals have to earn the right to live. They had to get their child to outwardly conform

23:07

to the social norms of these systems, which give their children access to resources.

23:12

To accomplish this, the child had to learn how to follow orders from authority figures,

23:16

which was the very same way that their parents had raised them, so their child was fighting back,

23:21

kicking and screaming. The power structures out in the world were being replicated in their own homes.

23:27

You can't have power over someone without hurting them, even if it's unintentionally.

23:33

And these parents were affected by the pain caused by their own parents, having said,

23:37

verbally or non-verbally, I don't care about your needs. You must learn to disregard your

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needs so I can be comfortable, and because I want what's best for you,

23:46

and because you won't be successful in the world if you make your needs known.

23:51

The way that you describe the use of power in the parenting relationship here brought so much to the

24:03

surface and I spend a lot of time thinking about needs and a lot of time thinking about my own

24:08

children's needs, but specifically the way that power is used in these kind of stereotypical

24:20

family environments, I think we're all socially conditioned into that, that it raises this

24:26

question of if I don't have that tool or if I can't use that tool what do I do?

24:39

And I'm curious for people who might be hearing this thinking,

24:49

you know, I don't have time to get a master's in child development

24:54

to understand what my kids need. Like, how do I even get in here?

25:01

I can see that I want to, I can see the need for it, but how? Yes. Okay.

25:08

Okay, so there's a couple of different avenues we can take on this.

25:12

Firstly, I saw this happening, and I created a quiz to help.

25:16

So if you're seeing difficult behavior from your child, and you don't know why it's happening,

25:22

and you don't know how to make it stop, and you have tried to tell your child to stop doing it,

25:28

and they have not stopped doing it, there is an unmet need that they have underneath that.

25:33

And so if you go to yourparentingmojo.com forward slash quiz. It's 10 questions, I walk you through it, and it ultimately ends up in one of the needs that

25:42

I see children trying to articulate the most often. And once we understand that, then we can

25:51

start to meet that need on a more regular basis, and then we don't find ourselves in this difficult

25:57

situation anymore. I'm also curious because it seemed as though you had an example in mind as

26:05

you were thinking about that and I'm wondering if you'll be willing to work that through with me.

26:11

I would love to. Tell me a little about your situation. And so for listeners, this is totally unscripted, right? We did not plan this.

26:20

I had no idea this was coming, so we'll see where it goes.

26:23

Yeah, I have a very.

26:29

Brilliant and dynamic four-year-old child who is extremely strong physically,

26:39

and genuinely does not listen.

26:46

Really whatsoever. I mean, I think that we are well-connected to her enough that we get...

26:53

We move through the world in such a way that works, But if we were to, for example, need to, for safety,

27:01

tell her to stop or tell her to not do something, she does not listen 100% of the time.

27:06

Like, she just... And it seems like she has a need for autonomy. It seems like she is really bright and really vibrant.

27:20

But also, she's very sensitive in that she gets... If she feels rejected, she acts out.

27:29

If she feels she's the little sister.

27:31

So, you know, a situation might happen where we might say, you know,

27:38

hey, we need you to get dressed or something.

27:41

Like, it's time for school. And she only wants to wear certain kinds of things.

27:47

That's fine. You know, we're cool with that.

27:51

But it's almost like if she's perceived, she freaks out.

27:58

If you're looking at her too hard, if you compliment her in any way, it's like she

28:03

wants to be connected, but when you focus on her, she has a really difficult time,

28:08

in that moment of connection. So she seeks it, but also, so whenever we're focusing on her to

28:14

like put her shoes on or get her dressed or something, she really kind of bucks out of that

28:20

experience in like running away or sometimes she'll hit us or, you know, something like that.

28:26

Not hard, but it's clear that she has a hard time being focused on in that way,

28:34

even though she also is asking for that frequently.

28:39

So it's not a perfect example. I'm struggling to find like one specific thing. Yeah.

28:44

But it's just an overarching thing where I have a need for you to be safe. For example,

28:52

walking down the street. She doesn't want you to hold her hand because she is a big kid. She is,

29:00

you know, as old as her sister, but she's a bolt risk. So you have to hold her hand because

29:05

otherwise she's not safe. So that's a good example. Yeah. Okay. So I just want to call

29:11

out a couple of things that I heard in what you were saying. You said she does not listen.

29:17

And I just want to point out that that's sort of code for she does not do what I want her to do. Absolutely.

29:28

Yeah. And I think part of the problem is I under have an understanding for that and also a value for it.

29:34

But then when it becomes a safety issue, it's scary.

29:39

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's that turning point where I'm like, if you're,

29:41

if I want you to do something and you have a competing need or priority,

29:46

I'm okay with that. But if it comes to you holding my hand in a parking lot so you don't get hit by a car,

29:53

Those are moments where I do need you to listen to me.

29:57

For safety. How do I keep my kids safe in a connected way? Right. So I think a great time to have that conversation is not when you're in the parking

30:11

lot. And so this is always one of the first things that I advise parents to do when they're

30:16

getting started with this is that these situations come up over and over and over again. The tooth

30:20

brushing, the getting dressed, the getting into bed, the getting out the door in the morning,

30:23

the running in the parking lot. These things happen over and over again. So we shouldn't be

30:28

having conversations about them in the moment that they're happening because we know they're

30:33

coming up again, probably within 24 hours. So at that point, I mean, there's almost sort of a meta

30:40

level going on with your daughter because of this issue around being focused on, right? And so before

30:45

we even have a conversation about parking lots and getting dressed and all those kinds of things,

30:49

I'm also thinking about a conversation about how do you want us to support you in these moments?

30:57

What does feel connecting? What kind of things do I do that help you to really feel loved?

31:02

What kind of things do I do that are difficult?

31:06

This morning when we were putting your shoes on, it seemed as though it was hard for you when I looked up at you and met your eye for a long time, right?

31:13

Right? Was that how you saw it too? And so that we're working

31:19

towards when we're in these difficult moments already with our children, how do they want to be supported? And I mean,

31:28

most of us have never had that conversation with anybody else.

31:32

I work with so many parents who try to, you know, they're in they're in a partnered relationship, and they try to

31:39

support the other person in the way that they want to be supported. And for the other person, they want something totally different.

31:47

You know, when, when my husband is setting a limit on our daughter's behavior, he

31:51

wants me to back him up. I, and I'm like, isn't that kind of undermining you? I don't want you to back me up.

31:56

If I set a limit on her behavior, that's between her and me.

31:58

That has nothing to do with you stay out of it.

32:02

Whereas if I don't come in and back him up, then he's like, well, you know, then

32:06

she, she, she doesn't get it. She doesn't think it's important. And so if I try and support him in the way that I want to be supported, it doesn't land for him.

32:14

And exactly the same is true for our child. If we try and support our child in the way that we would

32:19

want to be supported, it doesn't always land. And so we can ask them, when this hard thing happened,

32:26

what was it that was hard for you? Is there a way that I could have helped you that would have been

32:32

more useful than the way that I did choose? Can we try this next time? Do you have ideas for what

32:37

could try next time. So that's sort of a macro level conversation that I think would be really

32:42

helpful for you before you even started with the individual issues. And let me pause there

32:46

and just see what's resonating of that. I am finding myself thinking like is it even possible like is is it even possible for her at four to have that conversation with me and simultaneously knowing that that is true and I think part of it is that I have a really quick processing speed it's really hard for me to slow down like and you know I mean this is obviously something I have to do a lot of the time

33:18

but I was noticing as you were speaking

33:20

that I was automatically thinking, you know,

33:25

she couldn't have the conversation the way that I would want to have it.

33:28

And also that I am capable of slowing down to have the conversation the way

33:36

that it would be possible for her to have it. So, you know, just kind of noticing that gap that would help her feel more connected

33:43

to me in those moments. Yeah. So maybe this is a conversation to have in the car, right, where she doesn't have to look at your face.

33:51

She's in the back, you're driving. She can look out the window if she wants.

33:55

There's no, you know, we must maintain eye contact.

33:58

If that's not possible, you could just sit beside each other, not looking at each other,

34:02

looking out at something. You could take a walk, sit on a bench, you know, look out at a view, something like that

34:07

as a way of making it less threatening. Is a four-year-old capable of having this kind of conversation?

34:14

Yes, they are. And I know that parents often want sort of a, you know, when is my child going to be

34:20

able to do this? A sort of guideline by age.

34:23

And it isn't possible for me to do that because if you've been doing this with your child

34:30

since they were very, very small, they start to take this on really early.

34:35

And so, you know, my three and a half year old was brainstorming solutions that met both of our needs. Bye.

34:43

Because we'd been doing it with her for probably a year by then, where we'd been providing more of

34:48

the input, right? We're doing more of the talking. Oh, I think your need is for this and my need is

34:53

for this. And so I'm wondering if this would meet both of our needs and kind of looking for assent

34:58

from her. And so as they become more verbal and more able to participate and they bring an idea

35:05

to you, and it's like, yes, if that idea works for me, yes, I'm going to do it.

35:08

Because then they get the idea that when they bring something to us that works for us,

35:12

We're going to do it. We're going to be responsive to that. If you have a teenager who has never.

35:19

Had that kind of interaction with you, they're basically going to function at the level of that

35:23

two-and-a-half, three-year-old who is brand new to this, who is used to us pretty much saying,

35:29

well, this is important to me. I need you to be safe. You're going to do this my way because I

35:33

say so. They don't know how to even identify their own need or how to bring strategies that

35:40

could meet both of our needs. And so then we have to go back to doing a whole lot of that work where

35:44

we provide the input. And over time, as they start to see, oh, this is different. This isn't just my

35:49

parent talking at me and then telling me how it's going to be. This is actually when I can understand

35:55

what my need is, articulate it, and suggest a strategy that I could think could meet both of

36:01

our needs, then we can actually do that. So are you going to get something useful out of

36:04

your four-year-old the first time you have this conversation? I would say there's a good chance.

36:08

The answer is no. But this is not a one-time conversation, right? You know, in all of your work,

36:14

talking about needs is a lifelong practice. And so you can open up that conversation. And then

36:21

if you don't get anything useful, you can say, okay, well, I can see that you don't want to

36:25

to talk about this anymore, so that's totally fine. Maybe we can talk about it again another day.

36:29

And then on another day when we're feeling connected, hey, would it be okay if we talk about that thing?

36:34

Because it's really important to me that I support you in the way that you want to be supported.

36:38

And so I've been thinking about it and thinking about what you said last time.

36:42

And I was wondering if you have a need for whatever it is. And so I was thinking, would it help you if I did this?

36:51

Wait for some feedback, right? Some sort of moving forward. Yes, I think that can help me.

36:55

Or no, no, you know, withdrawing, moving away physically or verbally and using those signals

37:01

to refine the idea, oh, you didn't like that idea, what if we did it that way instead?

37:06

And so that we're moving in an iterative way toward meeting the child's need.

37:11

I'm curious, you described, as you were describing your own child, you were saying we,

37:17

and it stuck out for me because I think that for a lot of people who are listening to this,

37:22

kind of tandem question might be, how do I get the other grownups or my partner, my partners, buy in to do this with me?

37:36

Because I find that in my work and people who flock to this podcast, they're discovering their needs for the first time.

37:43

They're already trying to figure out how to communicate their needs with the people in their lives who may or may not be interested in that conversation.

37:51

And, again, you know, when you're talking about your children, we all have these strong

37:56

views, and that's this strong social conditioning around, this is what it means to be a parent.

38:03

And so, when you're changing, I would imagine that people listening to this would be really

38:07

on board with the conversation that we're having.

38:10

And also, I wonder, on their behalf, perhaps, how they have those conversations with the

38:17

the other people raising their kids so that they're all on the same page.

38:21

Yeah. That is definitely a journey as well. And frankly, I would say that it sort of sucks,

38:28

and I'm going to make a big assumption here, but I think it's probably,

38:32

I'm guessing it's going to be accurate that the majority of your listeners are female identifying,

38:37

and that they are the ones who are here doing this work on themselves. They are the ones who are,

38:42

undertaking this self-discovery and trying to show up in their lives in a different way that

38:47

that is more fulfilled, that is more respectful to themselves and respectful to the people around them.

38:55

And that if they are in a cishet relationship, that the male identifying partner

39:01

is probably not on a similar journey.

39:04

And that maybe it feels to that female partner that they are sort of dragging that male partner

39:10

through some aspect of this journey.

39:13

You're nodding along like, yes. I hear this all the time.

39:16

So, yeah, so we can't force anyone to do this, right?

39:21

We can't force anyone to go on this journey with us. I don't know if anyone's tried to change

39:26

your behavior in your life. People have tried to change mine.

39:29

Nobody likes it. I personally have a tendency to kind of dig in my heels and say, you know what?

39:35

You want me to do this? I'm doing the other then.

39:39

My mother-in-law wanted grandchildren for a long time and I didn't particularly,

39:43

but that was enough for me to kind of dig my heels even further and say, no. So if it's somebody else's idea, then I would say that it's it

39:52

It tends not to go well if we're trying to change someone else's behavior.

39:57

But that said, if we can approach these kinds of conversations not from a place of.

40:06

I've learned the right way to do it and we're going to do it my way now and it's backed by

40:10

evidence, and instead come at it from a place of real humility and invite the other person

40:16

into the conversation. Hey, would it be okay if we talk a little bit about how we're raising our

40:21

children right now? Because I've noticed some things about the things that we're doing that

40:25

that have been difficult for me to think through over the last few days.

40:29

I'm feeling really kind of overwhelmed and a bit disoriented as well

40:32

because I'm learning all this new information, right? So I'm identifying how I'm feeling about this in a way that is most people,

40:40

when we do share how we're feeling, tend to be disarmed, right?

40:44

It opens up our vulnerability a little bit.

40:48

And from there, you're in a very different conversation than you're doing it wrong, right?

40:53

Need to do it this different way. So I'm sharing how I'm feeling. Maybe I am sharing some unmet

40:59

needs that I have, right? I've noticed that I really have a need for movement in my body,

41:05

and that is not being met right now. I've noticed that I would love to feel like I'm on the same

41:11

team with you. And sometimes I don't feel that, and it sucks. And I want to feel like I'm on the

41:16

same team with you. And I'm wondering if we can talk through some ways that we could work towards

41:21

that. And so we're not coming in with this sort of meta, this is the way we're going to do it,

41:27

but with a, I have these needs. And also, by the way, I'm guessing you have unmet needs

41:33

in our relationship as well. And I would love to hear some more about those. And I printed a needs list, or there's a needs list

41:41

in the Banking Apparency on Peck Beyond Power, which is much shorter than some of the lists you find online,

41:45

which I find tends to be less overwhelming, easier to actually pick out what is the thing that you need.

41:50

And so if we can identify a need that you have that isn't being met, let's see if we can figure out

41:57

a way to meet that need as well, maybe even meet both of them at the same time.

42:01

So that's how I would go about starting to have that conversation with co-parent.

42:06

But before we end, I do want to come back to that example of the getting dressed in the morning,

42:11

because I know parents are, you know, they're like, but then how do I get my child to get dressed?

42:17

And I want to make sure that doesn't get lost and we don't leave people hanging. Yeah.

42:22

No, let's come back to it. I think it's really great.

42:25

And I think it is so important to really consider

42:30

consider how to do this work for yourself, how to do this work within your families without,

42:38

continuing and perpetuating you being the emotional laborer of the entire unit. Because

42:45

what I noticed in myself, as we were talking before, is just the level of exhaustion,

42:51

at being the person who is thinking about all of these things all of the time.

42:56

And, that it often feels like, okay, I have to teach myself, then I have to teach my kids,

43:06

and now I have to also teach you. And setting up this dynamic of power, where you are the person who is receiving the information

43:16

and disseminating the information, which is a huge energetic toll.

43:24

And I think an unnecessary one. Um, but yeah, I, I know in myself and I know in so many of my clients, that huge exhaustion of, it feels like if I want it to get done, I am the one responsible for it every time.

43:39

Yeah. And so what I think I'm trying to move towards is, I'm a human being who has needs

43:50

for rest and ease and collaboration, and I deserve to get those met.

43:56

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, I mean, that sort of takes us back to our examples, right? So you gave a couple

44:06

examples, I mean, one of those is, is bolting in the parking lot. And I would say that is a,

44:12

an awesome example of a limit slash boundary, right? Um, that I, at the moment don't see a way

44:21

to meet both of our needs. And so I want to meet my need to keep you safe as a parent.

44:29

And so I am going to hold your hand. That would be an example of a boundary. It's what I am going

44:33

to do or a limit would be some way that I'm asking the child to change their behavior.

44:38

That said, I do still think there are areas we can play within that, that can try to, as much as possible, move toward respecting, I mean, what this child has a massive need for autonomy, was clear in your original description.

44:54

So, could we have a conversation with them that isn't in a parking lot, where we talk about a trip that we've taken recently, where the child did run in the parking lot?

45:05

And what was happening for them, right? Did they see a dog or was there something they were

45:10

excited to get in the store or what was going on? And how could we have supported the child

45:18

in that moment to meet our need for safety, for their safety? Is it possible that as we

45:26

unbuckled them from the car, lifted them out of the car seat, get down on their level and say,

45:31

hey, remember what we agreed to and whatever is the thing that we're agreeing to. Maybe that's

45:38

making eye contact. Maybe for your child, it's not making eye contact.

45:42

Maybe it's an agreement that they will keep one hand on the car as they're getting out of the car.

45:49

Your child gets to choose, right? Your child gets some autonomy in this of,

45:53

no, I don't want you to look at me, but I am willing to keep a hand on the car

45:56

to the extent that we can involve them in this process and allow them to exercise their autonomy,

46:03

the more invested they're going to be in making this happen.

46:07

So that's where I would start with the safety one. But at the end of the day, safety trumps everything else.

46:16

But I also do think that we tend to over-exaggerate the safety risk and we see quote unquote safety problems

46:24

in many places where actually it's, you know,

46:26

I don't want you to jump on the couch because I am feeling overwhelmed

46:31

and I have a need for rest and ease and calm.

46:33

And it's not really that I'm afraid you're gonna fall off the very low couch.

46:38

But I'm gonna say it's about safety because then you have to stop doing it.

46:42

So I think that's super important to make sure that we're not calling things a safety thing

46:46

when we're actually not. And so when we are in a situation like the getting dressed, And that's the kind of situation where we have so many options available to us.

46:58

And it's so interesting that you brought up that example in particular, because it's reminding

47:01

me of course of the example in the book with the parent who is in these interactions every

47:06

day with their child. I think your child was probably five or six at the time.

47:10

Parents says, get dressed, no, get dressed, no.

47:14

One day the parent says, after we had started working together, says to the child, why don't

47:18

you want to get dressed? The child says, because I like knowing that you were the last person to touch my clothes in the morning.

47:26

Need for connection, which the parent had no idea. How could we have any idea unless we ask?

47:35

And when we ask, then all of a sudden, we find potential strategies.

47:38

The parent hugs the clothes. The child puts the clothes on.

47:42

The child's need for connection is met. The parent's need for ease in the morning

47:47

to get out the door, to be responsible to coworkers is met.

47:51

And everything just stops being so much of a struggle. because we can understand

47:57

what is underneath this resistance, meet that need and also meet our need.

48:02

So what if in this situation, a child said, this isn't my kid, but my other kid.

48:11

So you used to have really a lot of school aversion and would say, well, I don't wanna get dressed

48:15

because I don't wanna go to school. And here I am knowing you do have to go to school. I mean, that's not necessarily the case for every family,

48:24

but our family unit at that moment, the way that we are oriented is that,

48:28

you know, I need you to go to school

48:31

because I need to really, I need to work.

48:33

And that is the thing that facilitates that.

48:36

Now, of course, we could zoom out and there can be a lot of creative thoughts that we

48:42

can have about that on a larger scale, I think. But in that moment, it's like today, the way that our life is oriented is in this way.

48:51

Yeah. So. So the kid doesn't want to put on their clothes because they don't want to go to school.

48:57

And you know that they're going to school.

49:01

And how can that transition happen then in a way that is respectful? Yeah.

49:08

So, I mean, the macro-level issue here, of course, right, is the social system that we

49:15

find ourselves in, where you, quote-unquote, need your child to go to school so that you

49:22

can earn a living, because our system has set it up in such a way that you do not have

49:27

support. If you do not show up for X hours a day, getting clients billed X hours a day,

49:34

that is not a failure in your relationship with your child or in you. That is a failure in our

49:40

system. And so I hope that for parents, that kind of takes some of the pressure off, right?

49:48

In some ways, it's harder because it's like, well, then I doubly can't change it because

49:53

capitalism sucks, and I don't have another way to make sure that I can afford to live in a house

50:00

that has a roof over the top of me. But at the same time, what I want parents to see is.

50:05

That it is hard to find ways out of these situations is not a unique failing on your part,

50:11

or your child's part, or in your relationship. This is a flaw in the systems in which we operate.

50:18

So, another thing that you pointed out is something I think that can be really useful

50:21

to parents is pattern recognition. So when you're struggling to get dressed,

50:27

Are you struggling to get dressed every day? If so, that points to a potential issue related to the clothes, right? Because there is no.

50:36

Situation in which the clothes are going on. If your child is not struggling to get dressed on.

50:41

The weekends but is struggling to get dressed every school day, and I will say also this goes.

50:46

For car seat struggles as well, right? It's very often not about the car seat. It's about where

50:50

we're going once we get out of the car. So if we can identify what's actually happening here,

50:56

which your child has. This child has identified. This is about school. So what is it about school

51:04

that's difficult? That's where we want to be focusing. So is it that in school we essentially

51:10

get no autonomy? And if this is a child where autonomy is very, very important and in school

51:15

we're told what to do and when to do it and how to do it every single moment of every single day,

51:19

then yes, it's not super surprising that school is going to be difficult. Maybe there are places

51:25

within that framework that we can support the child in exercising autonomy. Are there particular

51:33

moments that are difficult, particular transitions, particular interactions with particular people

51:37

that are difficult? How can we support them in that? Maybe in a conversation with the teacher,

51:42

with an administrator, somebody else. Is it the social environment at school that's hard

51:48

to navigate? How can we support them in that? We're really looking to get super granular into

51:53

what is difficult and what levers do we have within that. I remember actually a conversation

51:59

with my daughter when, I mean she was probably three at the time, when the teachers at her

52:05

preschool didn't want her to play during rest time because it was disturbing the other children.

52:12

And, of course, the stock answer is, stop doing what you're doing. It's disturbing the other

52:17

children. And so we had a conversation about it with, well, what is your need here? What are you

52:22

trying to do? And she's identifying, well, I'm feeling bored and I want to play. I want to do

52:28

something fun. And, well, what do we think the teacher's need is here? Oh, well, the teacher's

52:33

need is probably maybe to have a little rest time themselves and maybe also to protect the sleep and

52:39

the rest of the other children. Can we see a way that can meet everybody's needs here? Well,

52:43

what if we played with a book or these certain toys that are quiet, stuffies and not blocks?

52:50

Could we meet all of our needs? Yes, we take this to the teacher and the teacher is absolutely

52:53

willing to do it because it meets the teacher's need and it meets my child's need as well.

52:58

And she's two and a half, three, having this conversation. So we can have this kind of

53:03

conversation with children. We can involve other people as well to the extent they're willing to to be involved.

53:08

But frankly, I mean, the purpose of school is this socialization,

53:12

is to get us to put our needs on hold in favor of other needs that school determines is important.

53:18

So there are always going to be limits on the ability that our children have

53:23

to meet their needs within school. That's baked in as part of the purpose.

53:29

Yeah, so many good, good answers. Thank you. And I think that the people who are listening to it

53:36

are gonna really, it's so great to use a real example. So thank you for playing at that with me.

53:42

You know, something I know we're coming rapidly to the end of our time,

53:46

but something that I'm noticing in this conversation is how much of my own capacity as a parent,

53:55

this kind of parenting requires and that that can be touch and go,

54:03

and also that that can be communicated to children.

54:06

You know, I think that's one of those things that we say, it's like, oh, well, we're on,

54:11

or we have to fake being on, that you're never able to be tired or overwhelmed.

54:18

And so I'm wondering if we can close out by speaking to that a little bit

54:23

about the idea of consistency, like capital C consistency,

54:28

and how much perfectionism is built into our understanding of we have to do all of this

54:34

and we have to do it perfectly, otherwise we're doing it wrong.

54:38

Right. Yeah, I mean, perfectionism essentially develops for many people as a way of saying,

54:46

know, if I'm perfect, you'll love me, right?

54:50

That's where we started out developing this when we were young because it seemed as though

54:56

if we could just do everything right, then we would get rewarded with that acceptance and

55:02

belonging from our family of origin. And so yeah, so that now we show up in parenthood with three

55:10

Brazilian things to do, and of course, I'm supposed to do it perfectly. And so I guess

55:16

what I would suggest parents start with is just to notice at the beginning where,

55:25

you are feeling frustrated, where you're feeling angry, where you're feeling

55:31

resentful. You don't even have to do anything about it in the beginning but

55:36

just to notice where are those kinds of feelings coming up. Is it when you've

55:41

just sat down to breakfast and you've got your child you know five different

55:45

things all ready for their breakfast, you sit down, they say, can I have the green spoon, not the pink one?

55:51

What's coming up then? What do you notice in your body? What do you notice in your brain when your partner makes a request that seems innocuous,

56:00

right? It's not a big deal and yet something sparks in you. Notice those things, look for patterns across those things and start to imagine what it

56:11

might be like to look for the need underneath that, right? With the green spoon. My need is

56:17

for nourishment. My need is for rest. I deserve to get those meant. Can we meet both of our needs?

56:23

Yes, you could get the spoon. I'm not stopping you from getting the spoon. I'm not saying you

56:28

can't have the spoon. I'm saying I am setting a boundary right now and that I am not willing to to get that spear.

56:35

And I know that setting boundaries is a massive topic by itself for female identifying folks,

56:42

but it's a critical practice because.

56:46

Otherwise, if we don't show our children how to set boundaries, they won't know how to set them

56:51

either. They will end up in the same place that we are in, where we feel like we're being walked

56:57

all over, where we're feeling frustrated and angry and resentful for a lot of the time,

57:02

because we don't know how to identify our need and meet that need and set a boundary to make

57:06

sure that need gets met. It's a revolutionary practice, I think, in families because it

57:13

It helps us to break this cycle of getting walked all over.

57:19

And feeling like we have to do it perfectly and instead showing up as a full human being with needs

57:23

who deserves to have these met, both me and my child.

57:26

And then the connection that I see more broadly is, and also I think it's gonna help us address

57:32

white supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism, because I cannot be in a relationship with you

57:40

where I see you as less than me if I truly respect you, If I see your needs as as important as my own,

57:46

no matter what the color of your skin, no matter what your gender and your presentation,

57:50

no matter where you live in the world and what you do for a living.

57:55

So I see this happening as a micro practice in families and also ripples of change happening out

58:01

in terms of how we interact with other people throughout the world.

58:04

I do too. Thank you so much for this, Jen. This has been absolutely wonderful

58:09

and I've really enjoyed getting to, I was on your podcast, I'll put that in the show notes.

58:15

I'm so happy to have you over here hanging out with us and Needy.

58:19

This was really wonderful for me. So thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

58:25

Thanks so much for having me, Mara. It was really great to be here.

58:27

Before you go, tell us, where can we find you? Where do you like to hang out online? Give us the goods.

58:36

Yeah, so everything I do flows through yourparentingmojo.com.

58:40

And the quiz, as a reminder for folks who are like, I don't know what my child's needs are, yourparentingmojo.com forward slash quiz.

58:48

The book is Parenting Beyond Power, How to Use Connection and Collaboration to Transform Your

58:52

family in the world and there are bonuses and you know how-to videos and all kinds of other stuff

58:58

at yourparentingmojo.com forward slash book. So those would be the main places to find me.

59:03

Fabulous. Well, preemptive happy book birthday when this is coming out it will be just around

59:09

the time of the birth of your book. I can't wait to hold it in my hands and thanks for hanging out.

59:14

Music.

59:32

Thanks for listening to the NeNe Podcast with Mara Glatzel. If you want my support in learning how to nourish your needs, dance on over to thenenepodcast.com,

59:41

take my quiz to figure out what you need right now and how to meet those needs with a greater

59:45

sense of ease and confidence. If you loved today's show, please leave us a review on iTunes and consider joining

59:52

the Needy Inner Circle, where your monthly contribution enables us to continue bringing

59:57

you the delicious conversations you adore without advertisement or interruption.

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To become a member of the Needy Inner Circle and gain access to the inspiring behind-the-scenes

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treats we've whipped up for you, skip to theneedpodcast.com. And, as always, permission

1:00:13

loves company, so if there is a human in your life that you think would benefit from this,

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conversation. I will be so grateful.

1:00:19

Music.