1:10

Music.

1:29

There, it's your host Mara Glatzel and you are listening to the Needy Podcast. Here at Needy,

1:34

we are devoted to sharing frank conversations and true stories about what it means to meet your

1:40

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about today's episode, dance on over to theneedypodcast.com. Now onto today's show.

2:03

Music.

2:13

Hello, welcome back to the Needy Podcast. I am your host, Mara Glatzel, and I am here today

2:19

with Katherine Sledd, who I reached out to because her new book, How to Be a Bad Friend, is

2:27

is so good and so important and so needed that I had to get her on the podcast.

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Catherine is a trauma-informed coach currently pursuing her master's in counseling psychology.

2:41

As I mentioned, she is the author of "'How to Be a Bad Friend,

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"'The Hidden Life of Failed Relationships,',

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"'A Book All About Friendship and Friend Breakups.' Her work is focused on growing people's capacity

2:53

to understand their desire and reconnect with that desire, like you would an old friend,

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which can often be an awkward and unclear process, one that requires delving into the painful past.

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Yet this place holds the connections that become the way through which a person

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finds the community they have been longing for.

3:13

Ugh, Kat, welcome to the Needy Podcast. I am thrilled that you're here.

3:20

We need you. I need you desperately. Your book is so good.

3:25

I had to have you on the podcast. We have needs around how to be in relationship

3:31

with one another and be in relationship with ourselves.

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And I know that you can help us, so welcome.

3:40

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Mark. Can you tell us a little bit about,

3:46

What you do and why you do it?

3:49

What I do is I help people access The hidden life inside of their stories that they've locked away,

3:57

most simply put and you know, whether that's in my one-on-one work with folks where we are exploring the impact of,

4:04

How the past is creeping into their present?

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Or through my work around friendship and friend breakups, I really want people to have language

4:12

for the things that feel too scary or messy,

4:16

and just had to be walked away as a result so that we can have more access to ourselves

4:21

and each other and transform our communities.

4:24

So just that. Just that, just that. And maybe I'll add one more thing. This is one of my favorite things

4:29

about one of my favorite sentences in the book is that when you allow people to have conflict without shame

4:34

eventually they learn how to work together. And I think that us learning how to be in tension with each other well,

4:40

is actually has the power to transform the world.

4:44

So, yeah, here to help us fight well.

4:48

Yeah, so your book is called, ''How to be a bad friend, the hidden life of failed relationships.''

4:57

And as a person who was raised to be very conflict averse is to be very conflict averse and to not have needs at all,

5:07

in relationships or in friendships and that that's what it meant to be a good friend.

5:12

This has been a real journey for me and I presume that this has been a journey

5:19

for many of the people who are listening to the podcast.

5:23

But I'm curious if you might tell us a little bit about your journey into friendship,

5:28

into owning your needs in relationship? What does that look like for you?

5:34

Yeah, I mean, I think what it looks like now is far more regulated and settled

5:39

than it was the journey into it.

5:42

And I think maybe that's part of the process. But for me, the journey with the book was,

5:48

I essentially had lost all my friends, not once, but twice.

5:53

And so at that point, you're like, it's me, I'm the problem.

5:56

The common denominator, why is this here? And wanting to take a look at what was true and real

6:05

or what was a part of a story that I actually didn't sign up for. And I think my journey into

6:12

it was pain. There was just so much pain that I was in. And I didn't have any other choice really,

6:20

but to sit with it. And I feel like that's almost... We say sit with the pain, what does that

6:26

mean, but it was like this place of.

6:30

Almost giving birth and having to reckon with what I really wanted and what I really needed

6:39

from other people and the gap between where that couldn't be met but also where it wasn't met.

6:48

Does that make sense? Yeah. And when you say that you lost your group of friends not once but twice, is this

6:59

during adulthood? Is this during childhood?

7:03

Yeah, I mean the book opens with a story in middle school, which I find is a actually pretty common time for a lot of

7:10

us to go through the rumblings of like friend breakups without probably even having it called a friend breakup. But for,

7:17

me this was in adulthood. This was after I was 25 and part of that for me was coming from a religious community and

7:24

deconstruction. So if anyone has that background like

7:28

that is like deconstruction is like far more about losing our community than losing our idea of the

7:34

divine or whatever faith we were raised with. But then the second time was more about I would say I

7:40

was raw in that aftermath and I didn't have anything else to hide underneath from myself.

7:51

And so I started showing up to relationships that way, thinking things could be different.

7:56

Like maybe if I'm honest, maybe if I'm forthright and realizing that there wasn't any magic formula

8:03

and that betrayal is in some sense always on the table, but am I going to choose to live

8:08

authentically in the midst of that or not? Yeah. So, the second time was more individual,

8:16

sprinklings of relationships here or there and they've been different in each encounter.

8:23

But it's it's been a sense of wow can we work this out do I want to work this

8:29

out does what you need and what I need conflict so much that we can't find a

8:34

way forward or just what you and I need conflict and therefore that we can't

8:38

even enter that that tension together. Well and I wonder in hearing you say

8:43

that about you know a lot of my work is about what am I even allowed to need to

8:49

begin with. And when I think about how needs show up in relationship for me,

8:55

you know, having grown up in such a way where I was really not allowed to need

9:00

anything ever from anyone else. Even that idea of what could make this

9:08

relationship better? What could I even ask for? What am I allowed to need in

9:13

this context. I don't think that many of us even have those skills.

9:21

Yeah, I and I think like, also, how do we acquire them? Because, you know, at this point, it's been in adulthood, as you're, you're asking, like, but

9:34

with blood, sweat and tears, and it's not been clean, is what I would say. I have skills now

9:39

that I wish I hadn't acquired through heartache and my own brutality and others brutality. But

9:47

but I do have skills now, so, yeah.

9:52

I'm curious if you were to think about like a core set of skills that you might teach

9:59

to your younger self or you wish were taught, what is in that friendship toolkit for you?

10:07

That's a really good question. I think I have to notice that like the heartache

10:14

in that question is that we're talking about loss and things, needs that weren't met.

10:21

I think I want my younger self to still know how her courage matters,

10:27

but I think it also needs to matter before she's exhausted,

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or before she's put at risk of something, of either getting resentful or being humiliated.

10:41

She gets to listen to how tired she is. That would be one of my big skills that if I could tell my younger self that notice how

10:50

much work you're doing in a connection and doesn't mean you shouldn't do that work.

10:56

It doesn't mean you can't do that work, but if you're feeling tired, like sleepy or sad

11:02

or exhausted, what would it look like to pause what you're offering for yourself so that

11:10

But either you can choose to step back in or at least give yourself what you need there.

11:16

That would be my number one, I think, toolkit piece for her.

11:23

It's amazing how in hearing that, the first thing that comes up for me is this old feeling

11:32

of like, you don't, you know, your belonging is essential.

11:39

And you're not really a part, what you need is not really a part of that equation.

11:44

Just being good or being present or being who other people expect you to be or want

11:51

you to be or need you to be, and how truly exhausting all of that is.

11:57

Yeah. I think that, and then what do we do with the exhaustion? Take care.

12:06

Sometimes it's easier to keep going and ignore it because then we don't actually know what to do,

12:12

with how tired we are. Like, I love your chapter on rest and just how particular and aware and

12:19

sensitive and subtle our own cues are in that space. But if we haven't listened, we won't

12:28

actually know what they are. Yeah, I was at my 20th high school reunion last weekend,

12:35

and one of the kind of like cute anecdotes we were all talking about about my high school self.

12:41

Was that I often was known to have a 32 ounce Nalgene bottle full of iced coffee.

12:50

I went to a boarding school, so here I am filling up my iced coffee in the dining hall

12:59

and chugging coffee all day, every day.

13:04

Part of it is just, that's me.

13:07

But the other part of it is how tired I was as a 15-year-old child, 14-year-old Jeanne,

13:13

for many of these reasons that we're talking about right now.

13:17

Yeah, what did it, yeah, and interesting, like, oh, sweet to remember some things so

13:25

particular about you and, you know, no, no shade to your classmates, but like, what other

13:33

particular things about you were missed that weren't seen in that moment?

13:40

So one of the reasons that I love this book so much is because, I mean, friendship breakups are commonplace.

13:51

They are happening all of the time. But it is truly something that we don't hear a lot about.

14:00

And I, several years ago, went through hands down the biggest breakup of my life in any context.

14:11

And I, I mean, it really struck me while reading your book that I, it never occurred to me how.

14:22

There's shame interwoven in not hearing about other friend breakups.

14:27

There is this piece of, it must be me.

14:30

Even though this is something that is happening all of the time. Truly.

14:35

Yeah. Yeah. And that's like, kind of the weirdness, the madness, the craziness of it is like,

14:43

you're alone because you've just lost your friends.

14:47

But actually, everybody else is having an experience like this,

14:51

like, you're not the only person to lose community, but we're all disconnected in that particular experience.

14:59

So it is wild. But yeah, I think it's the shame piece is really big. Like, we've attached our connection to our worthiness,

15:10

which is fair. I think it's fair. Like, that's how, like, it's all in, you know,

15:13

it's all who you know. It's like real estate's by location. And so who you're connected to gives us access to things

15:19

and other connections. So when you lose connection,

15:22

it's almost like you're losing a piece of your own worth.

15:25

We talk about this in romantic relationships, right? Where it's, you envision a certain kind of future

15:31

or you see yourself as one part of that context.

15:35

But when you've been friends with somebody for 20 years and you're in a small town

15:39

and everyone knows you as part and parcel, it's the exact same thing.

15:46

That is a facet of how you know yourself to be.

15:51

Yeah, yeah. I don't know, it reminds me of the iced coffee. People know your relationship,

16:01

from one view, and now they still know your relationship, but it has a whole new.

16:07

Narrative around it, and that carries weight. I wish it didn't, but I think that it does hold

16:14

social consequence that neither, I think, often neither party deserves.

16:22

That you know who whose side will other people take um how will people back away from you,

16:29

because they don't know how to talk about it or like they're both intrigued and like,

16:35

pushed away by the drama it's it's intense like even as i like try to talk about it i'm like oh

16:43

i can feel my own self like oof everything in me wants to run you know still yeah even after writing

16:51

a book about friend breakups that I've been through.

16:55

It's definitely not fun, but it is so necessary. You know, in looking at this particular friend breakup,

17:03

before we got on the recorded part of this conversation, we talked about how, you know,

17:09

as you welcome more of yourself into your life.

17:13

Friend breakups happen. And I remember being on the precipice of of allowing myself to be who I actually was out in public.

17:24

And that feeling of just terror of what if on the other side, nobody's there?

17:31

What if on the other side, nobody likes me?

17:34

And now being on the other side, knowing that that did come to pass.

17:39

There were people that weren't on board or weren't interested.

17:44

And I'm curious for yourself, or when you work with your clients, how you talk about

17:50

that dual reality of it being so scary, but also those of us who have passed through it,

17:59

even in the heartbreak, it's amazing to be surrounded by people who actually like you.

18:07

There's so much gained in that too. Can you say a little bit more about that?

18:14

Like the fact that like in being supported around friend breakup, is that what you're noticing?

18:18

Yeah. Well, I'm just wondering how we, how we kind of both hold the hope for you are allowed

18:25

and welcome to be who and how you are, and also hold the reality that it is true that

18:33

some people will not want to be on that journey with you.

18:37

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, I hope it's a trippy thing, isn't it?

18:45

Like, it's lovely to have as an idea,

18:48

but then like painful to believe in when they suffer.

18:53

So I can even notice it like slipping in and out of my mind right now.

18:56

Like, how do I even access that?

19:01

I think that when you have suffered in connection with someone, and especially if you've taken a

19:07

new chance on advocating for your needs or something like that, it will not be until,

19:14

a while later that you will recognize like the difference in people that like you.

19:21

Because, you know, maybe that relationship wasn't actually like by, you know, we have our

19:27

or assessments like toxic or unhealthy.

19:31

But when you're saying like you're in a relationship with people who really support you,

19:37

who you feel connected to, who you feel like you can advocate for yourself in,

19:40

it's gonna take some time to get to that place.

19:44

And that being in that place will inform so much more about the stories of the friendships you lost.

19:52

And I think painful ways, but you also will look back and see like,

19:56

well, this is what could have been, or this is where I made this same attempt

20:00

and someone didn't meet me there, or I wish I had spoken up just the way.

20:05

You are in this new relationship that's actually mutual and supportive.

20:10

It's not as much comparison, but actually just staying with the grief,

20:16

and the heartache as it's revealed to you,

20:19

when you are in a friendship that feels really good.

20:23

I find it can be even really hard to trust that a friendship can be good when you carry the experience of

20:32

things will be good for a time and then the bottom will drop out.

20:38

You know, especially I find my own nervous system gets activated the larger the circle.

20:46

Oh, that's such a great, oh yes. More to manage, more to lose.

20:53

But also what it is like to lose in one fell swoop, and I am sad to have had this experience in my own life,

21:03

to lose all of your friends in a large group in one fell swoop.

21:08

So I think it's interesting too to notice it's hard to trust in relationships,

21:14

especially when you've had heartbreak before, and also that only gets amplified

21:18

the more people that are involved.

21:22

That's really solid right there.

21:26

Almost there with that one. That is, I don't think I had identified that actually as.

21:33

A piece of the puzzle because at least even from my own particular work around friendships lost,

21:43

is you are, you do get kind of tunnel vision. So, I think that's such an important point that,

21:48

the impact is wider. Like how much shame is funneling in? Because if it's just you and

21:53

one other person, then it is a little bit easier. But if people know that you're friends and how

21:58

many people know that you're friends, the fallout is so much wider. That's really good.

22:05

And the discomfort. Yeah. Oftentimes, we're talking about our lack of skill, Peter. And oftentimes, you know, what happens is

22:15

Because we are conditioned to let things go.

22:20

We let things go, we let things go, we let things go, they kind of build up.

22:26

We let things go until we hit a point where we literally cannot do it anymore.

22:35

And ending the relationship feels like the only option. And yet, I am aware, even as I am not particularly well-practiced, but at least I have the intention

22:51

to have conversations earlier and more often about what I need, especially when things

22:59

aren't working, so that you don't get to that point of being 15, 20 years down the line

23:05

and you have to ghost because it is just so insurmountable to do anything else.

23:11

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. And I think that is actually maybe,

23:16

can be a real freeing reality actually,

23:19

to say like, that does happen.

23:22

Like I, just to say like, in reading your book, I like the layers of what place are you at with your needs?

23:30

Are you at building your own trust? Are you at advocating?

23:33

You know, like I think this is the top and the bottom,

23:37

not hierarchical, but like, man.

23:40

Like what, if you need to ghost and you are at that place where like you literally don't feel

23:46

like there's any other option. Can you make room to spend time at least with yourself and not ghost yourself.

23:55

Even as you are ghosting another person. And I mean, I think being ghosted is devastating and

24:01

painful. And there's a lot of... I don't enjoy being ghosted, having been ghosted.

24:10

Don't know anyone that does. But can you be... Will you be with yourself? If that's all you can do,

24:15

can you not abandon yourself, at least in that? I forgot where your original question started.

24:21

But like where can we start to like clear some room so that we can like start with where we're at?

24:27

Because not all of us are going to be in a place where we feel like we can speak directly what we

24:32

need, especially if we've been holding back with friends and risking that level of vulnerability,

24:39

that level of conflict. So, you know, starting with where we're at is the only place we can begin.

24:47

Mm-hmm. Well, that's very generous and kind, and I like to hear that.

24:55

Yeah. It doesn't mean that I'm not totally pissed off when somebody says that to me,

25:00

but I, but still, it's like, you know, from one angle, we gotta work with what we got, you know?

25:08

Well, yeah, and I wonder, you know, it cuts in all directions, right? Because sometimes

25:15

that happens in relationships because on some level we know that this is not a person who

25:24

can tolerate us as we are and then it becomes more conflicted and uncomfortable as we become

25:30

more of ourselves. But sometimes we genuinely haven't given the other person the chance to

25:41

know us or to work things out.

25:46

Yeah, and that's like the tricky bit of like, can we, what do we need to know about ourselves? And what have we been not, not

25:58

bringing forward such that the disappointment is actually, it's actually a fantasy in our mind, like, maybe as like, to your

26:06

point, about like, well, maybe I'll lose on my community. And then that does happen. But maybe that won't. But until you

26:15

actually recognize what you're bringing in from your history of why you shut down your games or

26:21

why you don't feel safe in relationships in general, is that how much of that is coming from,

26:28

your own history and how much of that is coming from the relationship itself.

26:34

And that to me is on the side of friend breakup, I think one of the most painful things when you

26:40

you feel as a friend that you've actually created room for people to advocate for themselves.

26:45

And then it is, you're told that it's, that you didn't.

26:51

And you have to reckon with what is true about that or what is not true about that

26:57

or how you're gonna deal with it, especially if that means that friend has walked away.

27:01

So how do you now ask for what you need in your friendships?

27:08

Think I have, I texted a friend before this podcast was like,

27:14

Hey, can I call you after this? So like little things of a request of time or when are you available? And also, I think one

27:23

of the things for me about advocating for my needs and friendships is, I.

27:30

Notice when I'm being protective about myself, and I try to say that that's what's happening,

27:36

Like I do a lot of narrating not like okay. Let me tell you all about me, but like hey

27:41

I notice a part of me right now is,

27:44

really stressed out and Either that is I feel like that's tension here like trying to name my experience in the moment,

27:51

Or I want you to know that's not about me. So try to stay with being as as honest as possible, as appropriate

28:01

about what I'm bringing to the relationship in that moment.

28:05

And I think that's not necessarily saying, hey, I need this from you,

28:09

but it is me making good on the promises I need to for myself of noticing that a lot of my heartache

28:16

and friendship has come from being dishonest about my experience.

28:21

Can you say more about that? Yeah. I mean, it's like burying what you're actually feeling

28:26

you get so good at it that you create a story that you're not actually feeling that thing.

28:32

Like you're not actually uncomfortable, you're not actually resentful, you're not actually scared,

28:37

you're not actually tired. Because some place in you actually doesn't want to feel that way,

28:44

or it doesn't feel that way maybe you have conflicting experiences. And so you... Like I

28:50

think a lot of us socialized as female, like we get really good at creating whatever story and

28:56

and putting ourselves in the place of what will play the part.

29:00

And we do it so much that it feels true.

29:04

And that's kind of to your point earlier, like let things go, let things go until you hit a wall

29:08

and then you have no option but to like tap out.

29:11

So being true with first myself about what's going on.

29:20

And every time that I haven't done that, it's actually not been around resentment for me

29:25

as much as it has been around setting myself up for humiliation.

29:29

That when I lie to myself about what's happening for me in a friendship where I'm starting to feel scared

29:34

or I'm starting to feel unseen, I set myself up, whether intentionally on the part of the friend or unintentionally,

29:43

to be humiliated because that for my own heartache and trauma is an easier way out,

29:51

than to stand in my dignity and say, this is what I want, this is what I need.

29:56

It's so interesting how.

30:00

True, this all does feel, you know, I talked to a lot of people about, you know, like how

30:10

we're in relationship with ourselves and how connected we feel to our own inner worlds.

30:16

And there's always this disbelief of people who say, well, how can I, how could you be

30:22

so disconnected from yourself? With yourself all day long. And just what I think is true, and obviously this is not true for every

30:37

single person on the planet, but what certainly has been true for me is that piece of how long

30:45

you deny something, and how convinced you are that that manufactured reality is true.

30:55

That's a quote right there. So it's not like you're lying. I mean, you are lying, but it's not, you don't conceive of it in

31:04

that way. Yeah, yeah. And I think when it comes to, like, that's the core of our desire, like,

31:12

the ways we're lying to ourself are telling the truth about what we hope for. It's just not

31:18

happening or we're trying to fill in the gap between like what isn't being met or what we

31:25

don't feel like we can say, you know, some other way, some sideways way. Again, for I think good,

31:30

that's where I come back to like the, we got to start where we're at, like maybe you don't feel

31:34

safe, but is that because you have a history of harm and trauma and so nothing feels safe? Or is

31:42

Is it because this person is unsafe?

31:45

And those are hard to parse out. And in the moment, we never, I don't think that's like, oh, here's like, what's from

31:52

my past and what is actually here right now?

31:54

But yeah, it's just a lot of tension. That's what it is.

32:00

Yeah, I remember there was, I had been with my partner maybe for about four years.

32:05

We were just about to get married. I had like a breakdown, breakthrough moment that had a lot of things involved in it, but one of them was how.

32:18

I don't know who my life was set up for, but it certainly wasn't me. It was like I looked around

32:24

and I saw everything I was supposed to do. I was intimately acquainted with who I was supposed to

32:31

be and what I was supposed to do and had zero relationship with who I actually was. And I had

32:39

to come home and say to my partner, you don't know me at all. And also that is entirely my fault.

32:47

You know, you, by all accounts, you wanted to know me. And by all accounts, I told you

32:54

what I thought you wanted me to say for years.

33:00

And here we are about to get married. It was an uncomfortable conversation.

33:05

Brave one. But how, just how, how powerful,

33:15

these stories can be, how deep we can shove our truth down.

33:21

Yeah. And on the other side, what it is like to be yourself,

33:30

and not spend, I mean, hemorrhage energy into manufacturing your image

33:37

or micromanaging other people's perceptions of you.

33:41

Yeah. And adding to that, it's almost like it's part of it is the acceptance of the inherent

33:50

antagonism intention that will still be there. Like I think there's radically different experiences

33:56

when you are denying yourself and you become so practiced in that there's its own uncomfortability,

34:01

discomfort and despair and other things. But like it's so much better to get to be yourself

34:06

and be human, which includes still tension and miscommunication and like disappointment.

34:15

But you're actually almost even truly in the experiences of those things alongside like

34:22

the joy and connection and mutuality and, you know, hopefulness of all that can be because,

34:29

you're showing up as yourself this time. It doesn't mean that everything always feels great, but you're with you.

34:39

It's a really important distinction. And I would say too, sometimes it explicitly does not feel

34:46

great. It feels like being naked in the grocery store or I started this, this trick, this new

34:59

experiment where I don't phone five friends after I leave a party or a social engagement

35:07

to ask how I was. Was I too much? Especially since becoming a mom, my brain is just.

35:15

It's like several things happening at the same time, really stepping into some reclamation of

35:21

some neurodivergence, having a brain that is partially baked because I never sleep,

35:27

because I have little kids, and also allowing myself to be who I am, which is a lot.

35:31

And yeah, so leaving parties and I, I, everything in me wants to do that thing,

35:40

which is to look outside of myself for validation that I was fine from people

35:44

who I know will say nice things to me regardless of what they actually thought.

35:48

Solid. I mean, my favorite thing to do. But yeah, it is, it is uncomfortable to be who you are and to not, I don't know,

36:00

No, I guess having that perfectionism or that certain persona, that was a security blanket

36:09

for a really long time.

36:13

And almost then closing that stress cycle on your own or the anxiety coming into that.

36:22

I'm curious, if you have an interaction with a friend that does make you queasy or feel

36:27

like, Oh, I'll say too much or I would I spoke up like clearly and authentically and now

36:32

of crap, like you feel the.

36:36

The, I don't know, second guessing of that. I don't know if that's an experience you have.

36:40

Like how do you then work with yourself following that? Do you call that for the next day or what

36:45

do you do? I remind myself that it's my job to be who I am and that the reality of being who I am

36:56

means that I'm not going to be for everyone. And that while that truly sucks, believing that every

37:04

single person on the planet should like me and that that's that I'm safe if they do or that I'm

37:10

good if they do or that that's even a plausible option on the table is a real setup. So I do a

37:18

lot of self-talk around that. It's like what and I bring some humor in. It's like Mara.

37:24

Well you like you're gonna be for every single person all seven and a half billion people on the

37:29

planet. But yeah, I genuinely desire that. I mean, you know,

37:36

it's fair. But yeah, a lot of self talk and a lot of like, it's okay to be uncomfortable. And, you know, and also it is to

37:44

be expected that after a lifetime of being a certain kind of way or reading the room and adapting that practicing not

37:57

doing all of those things is uncomfortable because it means that I'm less pleasing to

38:04

people. And there are consequences to that.

38:08

Yes, there are. Yep. Yep. It's, it's not.

38:14

It's not, I will say it is not safe in the realm of what we've been told we need for safety.

38:22

But I think it, yeah, it's a stronger place within ourselves that we've got us, you know,

38:27

regardless of someone else's experience. Like other people's experiences matter to us,

38:34

I think, based on the intimacy and the trust and based level of relationship. But it is anyone's

38:40

right to resent me or feel like they don't like me because they're their own person.

38:45

And I feel like sometimes I'm okay with that idea, but it's only been like for five minutes,

38:50

every couple of years. Feels better to be, you know, feels better to be like you're not in danger

39:02

of displeasing someone.

39:08

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

39:12

So I'm curious for you now, with all of your skills,

39:20

what does it look like to have rupture and repair, to experience conflict and

39:30

not just run away or pretend nothing ever happened or, you know, skirt the issue.

39:38

Like, how can we actually talk about how we feel and what we need in relationship?

39:49

Yeah. I think number one is just being clear on whether you're clear on that in yourself.

39:55

And if you're not clear on that in yourself, and you need it, you need like dialogue to talk

40:01

through it, then also, that's a need right there. Then you can start there. You can say,

40:06

I don't know what I need right here. Can we talk through that? Or if you... Because if...

40:13

Sometimes they can get too pressurized to try to figure it out on your own. And then in some ways,

40:18

we can more easily create narratives there. So, I think, are you clear on that? And how well do you

40:25

know your history of heartache when it comes to the loss of relationships or just the loss of

40:33

connection or what conflict means to you? Was conflict actually abuse? So, actually, maybe you

40:38

don't even know what conflict is. And I think that those are some places to start. And the other

40:45

thing is like, on the on the note of conflict, like, I think you pointed this out in your book,

40:50

your book that our needs are in conflict with each other, like our own needs. So we're like

40:55

negotiating it ourselves at some level, from day to day. And just sort of noticing little moments

41:01

of tension that are actually not threats, as you're like, oh, I'm in conflict. I don't know

41:07

if I want to get a iced coffee or a hot coffee, like, and even like to say like, oh, maybe that's

41:13

That's tension, that's conflict, that's difference, that's indecision.

41:18

And it can kind of just ease this idea that, oh, if I say something that is disruptive,

41:24

that actually isn't the problem and it's an invitation for us to be closer, more connected,

41:31

and for us to discover more of ourselves in that process.

41:33

That I believe is what is true about conflict. is not. Conflict, I believe, is good and necessary for us as human beings to grow.

41:43

Or do anything so I think that's probably my Not really quite a how-to

41:50

But to get familiar with your story around tension,

41:53

And how connected you are to your own needs So that you can know what you're actually asking of in your friendships.

42:06

Yeah, so the thing we don't want the answer to be Which is, there's no quick fix.

42:14

Yeah, sorry. And anyone who says otherwise is marketing an ideal and that's

42:22

they're not um, they're selling you something.

42:26

The quote that puts us right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is so good. It is. There is.

42:35

So much tension. I think just innately, in the desire to be known and also the fear of being known, and,

42:50

I could probably sit forever and hear you tell me that the presence of tension and the

42:57

presence of conflict is not actually, you know, I don't actually have to burn down my

43:03

my house and run away screaming. That maybe could be fine.

43:06

Because yeah, I think we need those messages.

43:10

We need to be told that tension can exist and it's not, you know, your fault.

43:15

You did something wrong. You weren't taking care. You should be better.

43:20

You should be different. Because I think for so many of us, I know for myself, it's like whenever the presence of conflict or even just like the whiff of,

43:31

Conflict or tension exists. It's like sends me into hyperdrive thinking about well, what should I have done differently?

43:38

What should I do differently now? How should I change to meet this moment to smooth it out?

43:44

Yeah and I think that's the lie and I think that the reason it's so hard is because it's

43:48

societal, social conditioning for decades and centuries, you could argue.

43:54

So, and if to change the narrative together, we can look at it as actually like,

44:02

oh my gosh, conflict is here. Like, this is our doorway.

44:07

Like, this is actually going to answer it. Awesome.

44:13

Yeah. Thank you so much. Is there anything last words you wanna leave us with?

44:19

Yeah, I mean, that lingering question of like, what, how can people care for their needs,

44:28

or if you're just starting out, I have a quote that I really love to come back to

44:32

when it comes to confronting things that are scary in our life story, friendships, relationships

44:38

where anxiety comes up. Is to ask yourself the question of what will happen if I do this, or if this, like,

44:48

what am I actually scared of, if you can identify that.

44:50

And then to give you this quote from Annie Rogers, which is, what you fear most has already happened.

44:57

And that in so many ways, our fears are a symbol of what has already occurred.

45:04

And therefore, the invitation into the risk or danger in front of us is actually to write a new story.

45:11

Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry. Really, really good. This whole conversation has been really good.

45:19

I appreciate you. I loved your book. Tell us, where can we find you?

45:24

Where do you like to hang out online? Yeah, I am mostly on Instagram, although it's sporadic right now as I'm also in grad school.

45:32

So Kate Sled on Instagram. My website is my name, Katherine Sled.

45:36

And yeah, I have the book out and you can get it on Amazon, Kindle or Paperclap.

45:44

And it's, yeah, it's just been such a joy to have this conversation.

45:48

Thank you so much for inviting me. This is my first author conversation about the book actually.

45:53

So I'm just like loving it. So thank you.

45:56

My gosh, I'm so happy to have gotten to host that conversation.

46:00

I just truly, I mean, if you're listening to this,

46:05

you've heard me gush about this now for almost an hour, but so many things in me that I didn't even know

46:13

I needed to have answered or be spoken to,

46:19

showed up while I was reading this book. And so I'm just grateful to you for sharing your time with us.

46:24

And I highly recommend that everyone follows you on Instagram.

46:28

That's where I first found you. And I was like, oh my God, what is happening here?

46:33

I both need to lean in and also want to run away.

46:38

That's fair. I get that. Yeah, that is very true. which people say about my work too all the time.

46:45

It's like, I know I need it, but no, thank you.

46:49

I do wanna say your book is some kind of magic.

46:51

I, there's really important truths in it and they are said so invitingly.

46:57

So I admire and love how you present things that we need in ways that we would wanna run away from,

47:04

but they're actually so inviting. So just wanted to put that out there.

47:08

Yeah. Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. All right, friend, thank you for being here.

47:14

This was great. I hope you have a great day. Yeah, you too. Bye.

47:19

Music.

47:37

Listening to The Needy Podcast with Mara Glatzel. If you want my support in learning

47:41

how to nourish your needs, dance on over to theneedypodcast.com to take my quiz

47:47

to figure out what you need right now and how to meet those needs with a greater

47:50

sense of ease and confidence. If you love today's show, please leave us a review on iTunes and consider joining the Needy Inner Circle, where,

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48:05

or interruption. To become a member of the Needy Inner Circle and gain access to the inspiring behind the scenes treats

48:12

we've whipped up for you, skip to the needypodcast.com.

48:15

And as always, permission loves company. So if there's a human in your life

48:20

that you think will benefit from this conversation, I would be so grateful if you would share it with me.

48:24

Music.