1:10

Music.

1:29

There, it's your host Mara Glatzel and you are listening to the Needy Podcast. Here at Needy,

1:34

we are devoted to sharing frank conversations and true stories about what it means to meet your

1:40

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about today's episode, dance on over to theneedypodcast.com. Now, onto today's show.

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Music.

2:13

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Needy Podcast. I am here today with Devon Loftus.

2:21

Devon is an author and writer finding inspiration in the human experience.

2:25

She believes that emotions are important messengers, a universal language of humanity

2:31

that connects us to ourselves and others.

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Outside of writing, Devon makes pottery and spends time with her son, her husband, and their pup,

2:40

preferably outdoors and preferably somewhere wild.

2:45

Welcome, Devon. I'm so glad that you're here. Thank you, thank you. I am very excited to be here.

2:49

Tell us a little bit about what you do you do and most importantly, why you do what you do? Hmm.

2:59

Oh gosh. Well, I am the founder of Moon Cycle Bakery. So Moon Cycle Bakery was a business I started a few years ago and we look at the menstrual

3:15

cycle and we look at certain hormones that fluctuate and then we look at micronutrients

3:21

that are lost because of those fluctuations.

3:23

And then from there, we created a cookbook that came up with all these wonderful recipes

3:30

on how to nourish yourself using these whole foods like sweet potatoes and cacao

3:36

and things that we can usually find in our supermarket.

3:39

So I do that, I love that. That's where I am lots of days.

3:44

And then I'm also a writer beyond that. I'm a copywriter by day

3:49

and I love to write poetry and just finished writing my second book which is about to come out in

3:56

gosh, a couple of weeks and that is a self-guided journal all about processing and meeting our emotions.

4:05

And why do I do it? I often ask myself that, especially when it comes to those two things,

4:10

kind of seeing the ties between the cycle and the second book and just me in general. I think that.

4:18

I really, I have been put on this earth to break down stigmas and make space for things and

4:27

and parts of ourselves that we often deny or reject either because they're big and hard

4:34

or because of societal pressures or ways that we think we have to be.

4:39

So yeah, that's why I do it.

4:42

Amazing. Well, I just love, when you came into my orbit, I was already a really big fan of Moon Cycle Bakery

4:50

at distance and I followed you there on all of the things.

4:54

And then I think, I don't know, I saw your email address come through for something completely different.

5:00

And I was so excited to get to know you and have read your book, which is fantastic.

5:07

And we'll say here for the record, I did say it before we started recording,

5:13

that I think that Dwell is such a phenomenal accompaniment to Needy, that they're like sister books.

5:21

Because the number one issue that I find when I'm talking to people about their needs

5:26

is that what we need is so highly informed by how we feel.

5:31

And if we don't know how we feel, then we don't know what we need, right?

5:38

And we, and feel, and it's very daunting, I think.

5:42

People are overwhelmed by feelings because they think, well, I'm supposed to feel it in my body.

5:48

What does that mean? I'm supposed to know what it means, what does that mean?

5:53

And then I always have a good crew of folks who know what they should, quote unquote,

5:58

should feel in every situation,

6:02

but aren't quite as connected with how they actually feel.

6:06

Hmm. So I'm curious for you how you came.

6:12

To write a guided journal about feelings. Yeah, well that last bit about how you should feel

6:20

versus how you actually feel I think is honestly what brought me to write well. So really since I was,

6:30

a kid, my therapist just told me this week your nervous system feels everything and I thought yes, yes it does. It has

6:39

since I was a child and that was always challenging, especially coming from

6:44

you know certain people in my life who never

6:48

could understand that, didn't have the tools themselves to really understand or accept their own feelings.

6:55

To your point, know what they needed to do because of those feelings.

6:59

So I often was told what I should feel. I often was put in a box and told this

7:06

is who you are, this is how you should be

7:09

and that's it, that's who you're going to be.

7:14

And I carried that with me for a very long time until I went to college where, you know, for the first time I was

7:21

really like, this isn't who I am but this is who I'm being told I should be or how I should feel. And that discord was such a, it was so,

7:31

it was such a bind, it was breaking me from the inside out that

7:34

I fell into a really deep depression, started having suicidal ideations,

7:39

and eventually, honestly, to survive, I needed to talk to someone.

7:45

I started going to therapy and it was there that all of this kind of surfaced and I realized

7:51

I didn't have to be or feel the way that everyone thought I should or I didn't have to make

7:57

people comfortable with how I felt.

7:59

I really just had to be honest with myself about who I was, how I felt, and what I needed.

8:06

And from there, I started.

8:09

Coming back to myself. And it was about um gosh that was I was 17 it was probably

8:15

10 years later um I had a myriad of things happen and I just found myself sitting in my parents house.

8:22

And I was so uncomfortable and I just started writing and discomfort just came out it was very yeah it was just it was not at all

8:33

planned that I would be speaking from the voice of discomfort but just happened that way. And then from there I realized that um when I did that I had more

8:42

compassion because I was able to see a part of myself kind of outside of myself like I would a

8:47

person and I was able to yeah heal a little bit more. Yeah I have to say that in reading through

8:59

the emotions in the book. I'm a really visual person and I'm, because of reasons that are

9:09

diet culture related, not as connected to my body as I wish I was or I'm learning to

9:16

be. And so, the whole thing of like feeling, like where do you feel it in your body? What

9:23

the kind of sensation that has been historically very tricky for me to tap into, almost like it sometimes there,

9:33

but not often. And reading through your different personifications of all of these different emotions

9:42

was so powerful for me because it, I could, that it just tracked for me.

9:47

In a way that I could hold on to. And, you know, in my work, I talk a lot about

9:52

how the work happens in the inner landscape and I create this whole metaphor for it.

9:56

And that is how, clearly how my brain works the more that I now understand it.

10:01

And I felt, even before I had read the book, when I heard you talking about the book,

10:06

had already lit up this new way of thinking about how to interact with emotions as they arose.

10:15

And so I'm curious for you about, I don't know, what your hopes are for how it's received, like how, who do you think it's for? And yeah, because I just was reading it with this idea that there's this huge subset of people who really just don't, we have this very narrow, and I'm a therapist, we have this very narrow scope of telling people how to understand their feelings, and it's much too narrow. much too narrow.

10:46

And I think your work widens it in such a delicious and affirming way. I love that.

10:52

I would totally agree. I think, I feel like I am still learning.

10:57

Like, honestly, I was saying to my husband the other day, I was like, I just wanna go and join some like study group

11:07

and just research the shit out of emotions.

11:10

Because I think they are so. Yeah, it's like the ocean. I'm like, there's so much we have yet to uncover. And with the,

11:18

different styles of therapy, even that I've been in, I start to see them differently.

11:22

So I did a lot of talk therapy growing up, a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and looking at

11:29

the stories behind things. And now I'm in somatic therapy, and that's so body-oriented. And

11:35

And I think maybe this work kind of meets somewhere in the middle, where for me, I am so sense driven.

11:45

When I feel like I'm connected, when I feel like I'm here and present, it's because I'm

11:51

focusing on my senses.

11:55

And so that's really what... That is within a lot of my writing, but that's really what drove these pieces as well.

12:02

And then that world bit you talk about of creating kind of the worlds that they live

12:07

in, that felt really important because I have a huge tendency to over identify.

12:15

So if I could see that these emotions live in certain places and I visit them, I don't

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feel like I'm stuck there.

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It's a place that I can come and go to, which is what ultimately my emotions want and I

12:31

want anyway and what I need but it's yeah it's done in this way where um I do think it's unique.

12:38

Like I haven't really seen it done where we can kind of see them as like parts of community right

12:45

like as people that make up our world versus good bad or me or not me so yeah definitely not as

12:52

narrow a little bit more nuanced I would say in that sense. Who is this book for who wants to

12:56

reach, gosh, I think everyone. I really feel like...

13:02

I mean, I think initially I thought like the big feelers, the people that really.

13:08

Feel a lot, don't have a ton of tools to not even like process them, but meet them,

13:15

like aren't even sure how to name their emotions quite yet, which I think is a lot of people.

13:20

So I think that I think it could benefit everyone, but I definitely think it is for people that are

13:26

maybe used to feeling a lot and want a different way of interacting and

13:34

communicating with themselves. Mm-hmm yeah I could see this for people who are

13:40

not big feelers. Yeah. And need a doorway in. Yeah absolutely I actually think

13:48

there are certain people that come to mind when I was writing it that I thought this would be really good like this would be a really good tool for

13:56

them, I think, because it's distance enough that they, it might not feel as intimidating.

14:03

So yeah, I mean, that would be, I would love that. I would love if someone who's like, I just, this is so new to me, felt like this was a

14:10

tool they could pick up and start to have that conversation.

14:14

So I'm keenly aware that I started talking about feelings and now we're talking about

14:18

emotions and now I'm curious for you, what, how you define the difference between the two?

14:26

Oh, that's a great question. I think that I define, so the way that I look at it is,

14:35

an emotion is joy or discomfort or contentment, right? Like they have these names and then

14:46

the feeling is, is their characteristics. The way that they literally feel in my body,

14:52

the thoughts that come with them and that's kind of the feelings that ebb and flow.

15:01

The feelings that we feel in our body, those will come and then they'll go. But the emotions,

15:08

will always be a part of us. They'll always be inside of us. So that's why I think we're

15:13

remeeting our emotions over and over. I was just saying to my therapist that I could probably go

15:18

and rewrite this whole book and all of these emotions would look different at this point,

15:21

because I wrote it two years ago, two and a half years ago.

15:25

Because those emotions are always evolving and sometimes the feelings that come with them do as well,

15:31

but I usually still can tell i'm anxious because the feeling is tightness in my chest the feeling is,

15:37

racing thoughts, you know, the feeling is the story that,

15:41

i'm not going to Like i'm not going to be liked if I do this. It's it's those characteristics can evolve but they for me

15:48

are usually my signposts that the emotion is present.

15:56

Do you have a favorite emotion from the book? I do, I have a few.

16:00

I love sorrow, actually. I think I've, I don't know if you've read Bittersweet by Susan Cain, but it's so good.

16:11

And it's all about, honestly, like it's making a case for melancholy

16:17

and longing and how they help make us whole.

16:22

And she's, I mean, she's an amazing writer and she talks about certain anecdotal personal stories but she also looks at

16:28

like music and religion and art and.

16:33

I, she says in there that there are just some people who like have a thing for bittersweet emotions and I definitely think I'm one of them.

16:42

And so I really love Sorrow, I just think she's a really beautiful loving emotion for me hard and painful but I my life is richer having known her because on the flip side

16:54

I also have known deep wells of joy and I think they work hand in hand so I really love her.

17:01

I also love awe because I just think awe is one of the best emotions and to me he's like a very

17:09

casual, humble person that I can find in looking at the Grand Canyon, but I could also just

17:19

see it when I look at my kid. So he's everywhere, basically, and I really loved writing him as well.

17:29

I really like the emotions that you describe. I can't even, I was just looking around to

17:35

to see if my copy is of course in the house, that I could recall which one I loved

17:39

and highlighted oh so much. But like the kind of like slinkier, sort of like mean but sexy.

17:51

Yeah. Like cute characters in there. I felt like I could really identify with what it was like to share space

17:59

with those characters that were sort of seductive and kind.

18:05

Yes, I love those as well.

18:08

One of them is Temptation. I really like, yeah, I really loved her and Sensuality.

18:15

Even vulnerability has a like an air of.

18:21

Seduction. That's a great word. Yeah, those were so fun to write. I mean,

18:27

yeah, so fun to write. And I was actually thinking of you because I remember when we

18:31

were talking about doing the audio book recording, like when you're reading through certain pieces or

18:37

certain parts of the book, and you're with like, you know, three men, and you're talking about

18:42

these things. And I was like, yeah, those are some of the pieces where I'm like,

18:45

like, oh yeah, it's getting spicy in here.

18:50

But yeah, I love them. They're great too. Yeah, it was amazing.

18:54

I'm curious, I should pull back the screen on the audio book recording gig,

19:03

which is wild in and of itself. And I had in those moments, this real visceral sense of.

19:14

Like the places in my body where the patriarchy is just baked in so deeply.

19:21

Where I was felt like caught between what I was reading and standing behind what I was reading and also, you know, jumping out of my body trying to perceive myself as I was being perceived by the men that I was in the studio with and reading these things that were really vulnerable and true.

19:37

And also was I not making too much out of it?

19:40

It was just there were a few moments while I was reading it that were that I got really scrambled,

19:47

Totally totally. I very much feel that I I mean you explained it so well that like being in and out of your body at the same time and,

19:56

And that stepping out to be see how you're being perceived. I feel like that is.

20:02

What That's like the collective trauma.

20:05

Like that's exactly what it does. That's what it, what it has us do.

20:10

Because the minute that I felt like the minute I stepped out, I wasn't in my,

20:15

I wasn't like with myself anymore. I wasn't in my power anymore.

20:18

And, um, yeah, it was a trip. It was, it was definitely, it was a mind trip.

20:25

I like came home to my husband and was like, that was so, that was wildly uncomfortable and I'm just like judging the shit out of myself right now but I

20:34

knew it was to your point it's just like it's because you're staring it in the

20:39

face. Yeah well and you're creating this thing which is I mean in truth an

20:45

incredibly intimate act which is reading your work and when somebody's listening

20:53

to it they're not just reading your book they're also listening to you read it

20:57

out loud. And I find now on the other side, I can't wait to get your audiobook first and foremost.

21:05

But on the other side of it, when people tell me how much they like the audiobook,

21:10

That is my favorite compliment. Yeah, why is that? I have my own reasons, but I'd love to hear yours.

21:17

I don't know. It feels like they... It feels like we had a private fireside chat.

21:27

Except we didn't. Do you know what I mean? That is the energy that I came to that with.

21:33

And so it just feels like anybody who listens to the audiobook for Needy is going to,

21:39

to, I don't know, be in on it with me in a different way than just writing it, because it's fun.

21:48

There's, you know, the way you use your voice, the intonation, the, yeah, it was,

21:54

it gave it kind of a whole other life that I wasn't anticipating.

21:58

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like it's such an intimate thing to do.

22:02

Like, I even think about it, like, why do kids love being, I mean,

22:06

at least my baby loves being read to at night.

22:09

That's a new thing, but he like loves, he will start falling asleep

22:13

and he will start to settle down when he hears us reading

22:16

or even more than that, we sing at night to him and that's how he falls asleep.

22:20

I think there's just so much power in our voice and when we're using it in a very true and authentic way.

22:28

So like what's more true and authentic than reading the vulnerable and real raw words you wrote?

22:35

Honestly, even like basically in a room alone, there's just something even so intimate about

22:40

that where you're not even with anyone. Like it's like your pure essence coming through.

22:46

And so it's like you're when you're people listen to your audio book, they feel like

22:50

you're talking to them because you are really are.

22:55

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well and especially when what you're talking about is something that feels taboo or feels vulnerable,

23:07

or you don't often hear people talking about in a neutral or positive way and yeah there's a piece

23:16

to it that's almost... It's like we're conspiring together Yeah, I was gonna say it feels like,

23:24

Back in the day when you would like have to go and secretly meet someone,

23:28

At night somewhere to talk about this,

23:31

Yeah Uh, so I am curious. I mean when people are listening to this podcast episode

23:37

We will be in and around while coming out which is very exciting for everybody because they can get their copy in

23:44

with a quickness Um, but i'm curious for you about how,

23:49

you're, baking Caring for yourself into this process of launching your book having just oh so recently,

23:59

Uh been through that myself What does it does that look like for you?

24:04

Especially having done this one time before it feels really hard. Honestly some days. Um.

24:11

So the first time around, I I don't know if it was because it wasn't as vulnerable. I mean, the cookbook I loved with

24:21

my whole heart and of course, was every bit as invested, but it was less me bearing pieces of

24:30

myself. And I also had a co-author, so it was really nice to have someone to go through the

24:36

movements with. This time around, it feels a ton more vulnerable. I also feel like I have

24:41

way less capacity because I'm working full-time, I have three-year-olds, and so,

24:47

tending to myself has looked a lot different. And honestly, a ton of it is letting go,

24:53

which I'm terrible at. But it's been a lot of letting go of the things I can't control,

25:03

letting go of these really not even real expectations or this immense amount of

25:09

pressure I put on myself and then riding that wave and then

25:15

doing the death grip again and then letting go. I mean it's just it's a constant up and down, back and forth of.

25:23

Of surrendering and yeah trying to control.

25:26

But the tending part I would say is I've just been talking about it so So like I'll bring light to it and that and really bringing light to my needs.

25:41

So being very clear on what I need in the moment, in the next few days, in that next week,

25:49

saying it out loud so that I can enlist help, but also so that that need doesn't kind of get put on the back burner as it might.

25:57

And. Yeah, just trying to give myself as much grace as possible. Do you have any difficulty prioritizing yourself? Like taking up that space and asking?

26:11

I'm not sure how to exactly ask this question. I found that I would weave in and out of feeling

26:20

like I deserve this space I was taking up. We'll put it that way. Does that come up for you?

26:27

Especially when it comes to, I don't know, I mean, I think I was keenly aware during the time that

26:34

I'm doing this is the biggest thing that I have ever done in my career. It is huge personally.

26:41

And also there's this machine of family that I am typically taking care of so much of and.

26:49

Going back and forth between, yeah, this is what this makes sense, you know, career wise,

26:55

taking up this space is what it like attracts. But personally, that felt hard to hold on to.

27:03

Oh yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That's probably what I struggle with most is,

27:08

I have been flow from, I feel this is really good, like I want to take up this space,

27:15

I've worked really hard to take up this space, you know, like what I'm saying matters and

27:22

and will hopefully help people and feeling really good there.

27:26

And then the next second being like, oh my God, how can I take up this much space?

27:30

Like my husband and my son, this, or honestly just being like,

27:34

um, I just want to disappear.

27:36

Like I just want to like go and I'm like, why don't I live on a farm and just like have chickens and paint by day?

27:45

And like, why, why am I like going after this bigger thing? Do I,

27:49

that really, like am I really capable of doing that? Yeah, it's definitely a back and forth and

27:55

of trying to figure out. I don't know. I mean for me, I really do try to figure out like, am I being selfish and taking up this?

28:07

And that's a hard one to answer. Personally, I feel like some days I'm like, no, hell no. And other days I'm like, maybe. Yeah.

28:17

It's really challenging and something that I often say to myself is, uh, if I could do it any other way, I probably would.

28:27

But that relates to my writing, that relates to my work, that relates to a lot of things

28:34

that require, you know, for some reason I put myself in direct, in the direct line of

28:43

increasing visibility.

28:45

And also that is the most single most uncomfortable thing for me is that visibility.

28:51

Tension between wanting it and being totally overwhelmed by it and wanting it again.

29:01

Yeah. I felt like I really got in touch with my inner child and my inner child.

29:07

Liked attention and got really tired and needed a nap like that.

29:12

Totally. Yeah. I have been thinking about that a lot of like my inner child was the exact same

29:19

way. Like she was big and loud and she loved it. But then would hate if I went somewhere and,

29:25

like I remember going to like a rollerblading park like party or something and there was just

29:33

someone there that was infatuated with me and I remember like hysterically crying, could not take

29:38

it. I just wasn't in the space to receive it then. So yeah, I feel like I constantly question Is it a matter of.

29:49

Resting along the way like is it a matter of like I'm so wildly uncomfortable and tired of being in the spotlight right now

29:54

But I need to be in the spotlight So do I need to give myself what I need so I can be here like tend to myself over I can here.

30:02

And or is it like I'm in the spotlight and I Take up space and I show up and then when I'm not this like I go and I take a hiatus

30:09

like I'm always wondering about that process between,

30:14

resting verse like taking larger amounts of time off. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I don't know what that is. I don't

30:22

know what that answer is yet. I think for me it varies day by day. Some days I can like go for a

30:27

walk or go get ice cream or whatever and feel like okay I'm good today. Like I did the little

30:33

bits along the way that I needed to and then other times I'm like I need a fucking week off. I need

30:38

to go like hideaway somewhere and that's just what that's gonna be. Well and I wonder, visual

30:47

image that I'm getting for you right now is that when big things happen, it's like inside of us

30:57

where all of these emotions dwell all of the time. It's sort of like a raucous dinner party

31:04

where everybody is present and talking over each other, that kind of like, it's chaotic.

31:12

Yeah, it is. I think that's also why in the book, like the steps of, the steps I go through,

31:20

are for that exact reason, like the naming the emotion or the greeting it, the sitting with it,

31:27

the conversing with it and then the saying goodbye because.

31:32

If I am feeling overwhelmed or I'm feeling like I'm at that dinner party and everyone's yelling over each other, I love that.

31:39

I don't even know who's there really, right? Like I'm so flustered and I'm not really present that I have to sit down and name them all to really understand what's going on and then what I need to do about it.

31:54

Um, so I think, I think that's why naming your emotions is so important.

32:00

Um, but so often I, I have people in my life where, you know, I'll ask, well,

32:06

how are you feeling? And their response is, well, I think, you know, or like, or they'll just

32:11

replay what it is that happened.

32:15

So I think that naming an emotion, um, Brene Brown says it in the Atlas of the

32:20

heart, something to the effect of like, it doesn't give the emotion more power.

32:23

It gives you more power. But it's, yeah, it's hard sometimes to know what the emotion is.

32:32

And also because I think emotions can be so nuanced. Well, something that I get a lot of in my work is when I ask people how they feel,

32:42

They tell me that they feel tired.

32:44

And rest becomes this kind of catch-all to me and I need something that I don't have.

32:55

And as you were just talking, I was thinking about how I think certainly this has been the case for me, but I can see this with clients too, that tired becomes a catch-all.

33:08

Becomes the catch-all. And that sometimes we have...

33:17

These sort of buckets that are, you know, if you think about the feeling wheel,

33:22

the things that are the closest to the center. But, you know, tired is just such a compelling

33:29

one for me because it's like, I'm spiritually tired, I'm physically tired, I'm mentally tired.

33:36

These have such completely different flavors for me.

33:43

And having an offering set up in such a way that people are encouraged to dig a little bit deeper,

33:52

and get to know what their own particular flavors are, I think is so powerful.

33:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's such a good point. It's funny, that's actually.

34:02

That is so, so, so true.

34:06

I mean, I can hear myself saying it and it's something that my husband growing up, like,

34:12

it's something I've been with my husband.

34:14

I've known him since we were 18. And I remember even when we were younger, him talking and I could tell something was

34:21

off and I'd be like, what's wrong? Or, you know, how are you feeling?

34:23

And he would say, I'm just tired. And I, and you just kind of know to your point, like, there's so much underneath that.

34:30

But if you don't have, I also think to your point of like, it's one thing to not be able

34:37

to name it, but if you also can't sit in it and be like, okay, well, this emotion makes me feel heavy.

34:44

I feel like I often equate tiredness with heaviness. Or this emotion, like some emotions leave me feeling breathless, like I can't catch

34:56

my breath. And sometimes that makes me feel tired. There's all these, you're right, there's all these little flavors.

35:03

I love that word. And I think that's why the second step after naming it and sitting with it is so important

35:09

because yeah, you really start to understand.

35:13

What it feels like in your body and then from there, what stories, for me, it's like what

35:20

stories make me feel this way too. Yeah, what way of looking at this makes me feel this way? So walk us through the process. Yeah.

35:33

Yeah, so there are, so every emotion is put into five different worlds, like everyone

35:41

has their own little world. The five worlds or categories are prickly emotions, full-bodied

35:48

emotions, groovy emotions, spacious emotions, and transcendent emotions. And within at the

35:56

end of each of those categories, there are journal prompts that then take you through

36:00

four steps that we've just been talking about a little bit. So greeting an emotion or naming

36:05

it, sitting with an emotion, conversing with it, and saying goodbye. I say saying goodbye

36:10

with gratitude because that's my process. But you don't, you know, gratitude is not always accessible

36:15

and you don't need it, I don't think, to regulate. So the first one being meeting an emotion or

36:23

greeting it. We talked a little bit about that, but basically naming it to your point,

36:27

starting to understand how it feels in your body.

36:30

And then from there you sit with an emotion this is where we get a little more curious about those stories or those

36:38

hurt story patterns um some of our triggers or our beliefs that kind of certain emotions I find I have certain

36:47

beliefs that just trigger certain emotions and they can go on loop.

36:50

So for things like that getting aware of yeah what those stories are and where

36:54

they might stem from although that's not always possible to figure out. The third one would be conversing and that one is my favorite because it's the

37:02

creative writing part where you personify your own emotions. So this is where, yeah.

37:09

The prompts are all things like if this emotion that's present was a person,

37:14

you know, what would they look like? What would their disposition be? Where are you meeting them

37:19

in the world? What's around you keying into those senses? What do you smell or taste or

37:24

feel and ultimately what are they there to tell you what do they need.

37:29

And then the last step being saying goodbye with gratitude and so the last step is giving

37:35

thanks to the emotion for showing up but giving thanks to yourself for,

37:41

sitting with it and for talking with it and for giving it the acknowledgement

37:44

that it and you need.

37:48

So those yeah those are the four steps. I find myself most curious about the saying farewell portion.

38:01

Because I remember when I was streaming it, thinking like, okay, okay, okay, okay, I'm with you, okay.

38:10

And now I have to, there seems to be quite a bit of emotional regulation involved with.

38:19

Intentionally saying goodbye and especially with a more full-bodied or triggering emotion to be with and,

38:30

I'm curious about how you came to that.

38:34

What was that learning like for you? What does that look like for you in practice?

38:39

Yeah, so this is the regulating part is 100% what I'm still learning

38:46

It has always been, I didn't really have it modeled for me growing up so it has been something that I've always been curious about

38:55

and my practice is still changing. But when I say goodbye what I really mean is not over identifying or coming back

39:06

into yourself, coming back into your body. So for example those full-bodied

39:11

emotions yeah they are their full body they take up your whole

39:15

body so it's hard to just snap out of it, right? Which is not anything that I think, I don't think

39:20

we can logically talk our way out of feeling something. I don't think we should. So it's more

39:25

of a matter of if you've named it and you've sat with it, like you're full of it basically at this

39:32

point and then you've talked with it, you know what you need or maybe you don't, but you at least

39:37

know that it's there and it's trying to speak up and you can't fully hear it quite yet, but you

39:42

also just you can't hold it anymore either because it's starting to turn

39:48

into rumination, it's starting to to become too overwhelming, it's it might

39:53

even be like you have to literally go and pick up your child from school but

39:58

whatever the reason, you have to shelve it. And for me, it's moron.

40:04

It's more of getting out of that that space of being with it so conversing with it and hearing

40:10

what it has to say and what you think and more so coming back to your body so things like dancing,

40:16

just moving um going for a walk uh this is honestly where i think it comes back to being

40:22

really clear on what you need so what do i need right now for this emotion to simmer a bit to be

40:29

at bay like for me to just come back to me and find that stillness inside

40:34

because for whatever reason I can't sit with it anymore.

40:38

I think that looks different for everyone. For me it honestly looks different on a day-to-day basis but my go-to's are

40:45

music so like I definitely music and dancing for me helps me kind of move through whatever needs to move through so it's not as

40:53

overwhelming and journaling as well so just even just brain dumps, like getting everything out of my head so that I can say goodbye and come back to

41:02

it later if I need or want to. And then, yeah, deep breaths, like being with playing, like being

41:10

with my son. But yeah, anything that just makes me feel like I'm reconnected to my body and not

41:17

necessarily dwelling in my head. Yeah. Yeah, because I think for some of us,

41:24

especially, you know, those of us who didn't receive a ton of modeling around this kind of.

41:33

You know, I think so often about when I'm talking to my children, where, you know,

41:40

especially I have a six-year-old, and especially she will say, I can't stop. I can't stop.

41:48

And I had to teach myself how to stop in order to teach her.

41:56

Yes. Because I remember these conversations where I was like,

41:59

you have to stop. And she was like, well, I can't, I don't know how, how do I? And my.

42:06

Well, that's an excellent question. I mean, you know, it is something that I understand,

42:10

of course, intellectually, but I can, you know, know in my body that feeling of it is,

42:16

it's impossible to do any of those things. And so thank you. I love that all of the examples

42:22

you gave us and also the invitation to not over identify with our emotions, because I think,

42:29

that is a trap many of us fall into. The idea that there is there is a me that is

42:34

separate from the me who is in that. Yeah. Yeah. Space is huge in and of itself and

42:43

to have that modeling is very generous. Thank you. Of course. That's yeah. That's

42:50

that's definitely something I've struggled with since I was a kid. So yeah.

42:56

Yeah, I think you're right. A lot of people feel that way. And yeah, I love that.

43:04

I love that. I can't stop. That's a very real way of putting it.

43:09

And my son's the same way.

43:11

My son's just, I mean, kids anyway, right? But my son is very much like me, where

43:17

he's just very big feeling. And I've actually started to teach him some of these,

43:23

some breath work that I've learned at therapy.

43:26

Because there's movement involved and it's pretty amazing to see how quickly

43:34

it can work. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it really is.

43:42

Yeah, it's just, I mean, I think the kind of celestial joke of parenthood is how much

43:50

of your own reparenting you are doing in the process. I wouldn't bold me that.

43:56

Yeah, me neither. Yeah, that was a surprise. Yeah, it's amazing to re-meet yourself at every stage and to learn, to have that yearning

44:12

for I want to give this to my kid and I can't because I don't know. I don't know. I, you

44:22

know, it's just not embodied for me yet. And practicing it on your own. Yeah, that's a whole other podcast.

44:28

I was just about to literally take those words out of my mouth.

44:33

Devon, well, it has been just wonderful having you here. I am so excited for your book. I

44:39

and wait for it to be out. Is there any last words you wanna leave us with? Any last things you want us to know?

44:47

I think that the one thing I always think of when it comes to this kind of work

44:52

that I've had to get to myself, honestly, is so much of what I feel like you talk a lot about too,

45:00

Mara, is like, just come with grace.

45:06

Don't judge how you do it. The thing I'm learning too with all of this is just.

45:13

Trust yourself enough to eat up everything that brings you back to yourself. So no matter how that looks or if it's

45:20

different from day to day or moment to moment, if it works for you, and I'm a big believer in

45:26

all of this, nothing's prescriptive. So if it works for you, then let it work for

45:32

you. For me, and how amazing it is that you can know and trust yourself enough,

45:39

to lean into that, so that there's no right or wrong way of doing any of this.

45:47

I love that, thank you so much. So tell us, Devon, where you like to hang out.

45:53

Where can we find you? Where can we hang out with you?

45:57

I was gonna say, you could find me in the woods. No, I don't like to be online, so don't find me there. Yeah, exactly.

46:03

I like to hang out on Instagram, but I really like hanging out on Substack actually.

46:11

I'm just starting to write again there, but it's cozy. I like it there.

46:16

So yeah, you can find me under Devin Loftus or my newsletter is called Letters from Home on Substack.

46:26

And on Instagram, it is at underscore Devin Loftus.

46:33

Amazing. Well, I will put this both and all in the show notes and thank you. Thanks for

46:38

being here. Thank you for having me. Music.

46:59

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47:03

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47:40

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47:46

Music.