1:10

Music.

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Host Mara Glatzel and you are listening to the Needy Podcast. Here at Needy, we are devoted to

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sharing frank conversations and true stories about what it means to meet your needs consistently,

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dance on over to theneedypodcast.com. Now, on to today's show.

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Music.

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Hello everyone, welcome back to the Needy Podcast. I am beside myself to share with you

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that today's podcast guest is Laura Danger. Laura is a licensed educator, coach, content creator,

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and certified Fair Play facilitator who has been facilitating and educating in Chicago for over 12

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years. She has advanced endorsements in the areas of English as a second language and learning

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disabilities. Laura facilitates workshops, retreats, coaches individuals and couples,

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and creates educational content in an effort to create a more equitable world. She is passionate

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about domestic equity, the value of domestic labor, and how empowerment out in the world starts with

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with empowerment at home. Hi, Laura, welcome to Needy. Hello, and thanks for having me.

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Oh, I'm just thrilled, absolutely thrilled.

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For the people who are listening in, who don't know you, don't have a parasocial relationship with you

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the way that I do, tell us a little bit about what you do, and most importantly, why.

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Why do you do what you do? So a little bit about me. I'm an educator, a career educator and a facilitator,

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I'm trained in the Fair Play method. It's a system developed by the author Eve Rodsky.

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It's a book, it's a set of cards, it's a whole thing. Basically, my day-to-day is making free

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content online or coaching or doing workshops or writing curriculum about how people can have

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more equitable and connected and engaged partnerships.

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And especially focused around domestic labor. And I am a mother of two, a six-year-old and a

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three-year-old, and a husband, and I live in Chicago. LS. Awesome. I also have a six-year-old

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and a three-year-old. So that's a lot. KS. It's a lot. Yes. Yes. This is an interesting combination.

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LS. Yeah. Yeah. Well, especially for a conversation about needs as well as just equitable household,

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everything when there are so many needs of so many people that are so acute. So I'm curious,

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given that, what does it look like for you to meet your needs or have your needs met on a daily

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basis? I'll say it's, it's really been a work in progress. But I mean, this morning I woke up,

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it's like nine 30 where I am, I got up, I walked my kids to school with my husband, I got a coffee.

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And one thing that I've learned over the last couple of years is part of taking care of myself

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as routine and knowing what to expect, knowing what to expect out of a day or a week or the,

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the people in my life. So routine and.

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You know, I always tell millennials to like not spend money on coffee or like frivolous things.

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Just doing that, like not making myself a coffee every single morning and budgeting in that little

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joy has been really important for me. And it's just reflective of the larger way that I take care of

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myself, which is if I don't have to struggle, why struggle? Yeah. Well, and I think I love that

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example because I think it resonates with so many of us these like small ways

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that we're weaving joy and pleasure into our daily lives and I hate that advice.

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Being a avid coffee drinker myself I'm curious about how this is different. How

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did you come to this work personally? How is this different than how you used to

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meet your needs or not meet your needs.

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So I spent I want to say I spent I've spent my entire life thinking that sacrifice was,

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part of what made me valuable.

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And so much like a lot of my friends of very specifically a lot of the women in my life

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are I grew up with this idea that I had to like be flexible and prioritize other people's

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comfort. And I also come from a background of classroom teacher, I was a classroom teacher.

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But before that, I was working, I've always worked in like nonprofit field and things

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like that. And there is this culture of, I would get fulfillment. This I'm using air

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quotes here, I would, I was assuming I would get fulfillment from my sacrifice. So like,

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wow, I will feel very valuable. I will feel very fulfilled by doing this work, which is consistently

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depleting. And like, specifically throughout the last couple of years in the pandemic, which

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finally caused me to leave my teaching career, there was this constant thing of like,

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do it for the kids, do it for your kids, do it for your husband, for your marriage.

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Do it for, it was never me, never do it for me. So that was a huge change. At one point

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there was essentially, you know, I've started to refer to it as like a death, like there

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was a death of my past expectations, my past understandings, the version of relationships

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I had with myself and then my partner and even my kids.

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I had to have. I hit rock bottom. I burnt out. And even though I was trying really hard to meet my own needs.

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There was like a series of months where I was like, this is completely unsustainable.

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I'm going to I'm going to burn to a crisp. Like I am either I don't know what I'm going to do.

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It was like a trapped animal. And finally, I decided like, okay, I'm done. I can't,

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I can't do this anymore. And instead of escaping into the woods and never turning back, or like

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like packing up my car and disappearing. I'm just gonna quit all of the things and have this like life death.

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Like I gotta do something different.

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So it didn't happen in like one moment, but I do think over the last couple of years,

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it's been like, what feels good? And then doing that thing.

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Yeah, I'm curious what point Fair Play entered your life. Was this before or after this death?

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So I found Fair Play in the fall of 2019, which is when it came out,

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I found it maybe a month or two after it came out, working full time, two kids.

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You have children the same age, so I wonder, I don't know if you remember this time

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in your life, but when my oldest was three and the youngest was like six months old.

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And so I'm like in the depths. I had to start a new job because of a layoff during maternity leave.

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And so I was working full time. I was working alone at nights because my husband worked nights.

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And I was just so stressed out. I found this book and in Fair Play, she describes the mental load.

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She identifies the way that so many of us.

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Have imbalance in our homes because we protect one partner's time over the others,

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because of our socialization, because of social messaging.

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And this book, you know, I had been, so many of us know these things, right?

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Like, I know I'm managing more at home. I know, like, we kind of know, like, this is not, this doesn't feel good.

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But hearing her tell me back, yes, you're not in this alone, this is too much for one person,

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it doesn't have to be like this.

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I heard her message and it was just the beginning.

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So over the course of the year after I found it, I didn't have my husband read the book,

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but we did start having conversations about the mental load and things like, because my six-year-old had kind of a,

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she had a medical need, high medical needs for the first couple of years of her life.

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I took a lot of that on and it set my partnership up for pretty serious mismanagement

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and imbalance of the mental load. So we started, I started offloading the knowledge that I had been keeping and he started engaging with it.

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And so over time, we just started shifting and then the pandemic hit.

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And it was like survival mode all the time, every single moment of the day, no childcare,

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were both drowning and it kind of got put on hold.

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But after a certain point, like I said, with everything, it all became so clear that this couldn't keep going.

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And at that point, I basically came to my husband and said, we have to take this really seriously.

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We need to do like twice weekly, let's talk about this once weekly

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because I am a shell of a person at this point.

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And he was struggling too, struggling with me, but he got on board.

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And so for the last couple of years, we've really changed our interaction.

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We actually both became Fair Play facilitators.

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Yeah, I love that. I'm interested in that. Yeah.

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And so we both like preach the word of Fair Play.

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And all it is, is just a system. It's a system for talking about these things. It's a structure.

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Yeah, it's so interesting. I think that for me, I could get by.

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Without having my needs met for much of my life. Even when it didn't feel great,

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it wasn't so obviously broken either

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until I started having kids, which for me was really stressful.

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I had a lot of postpartum mood stuff and it just, the tiny cracks that were already there

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became bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

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And I hear from a lot of clients as well that the pandemic did this for them

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where wherever there were these sort of stress fractures just became exacerbated by the profound stress

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and uncertainty of the last couple of years.

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And what they maybe were accustomed to swallowing before suddenly was becoming unacceptable.

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Yeah, absolutely. That's too much.

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That's too much. So I have a lot of clients who come to this conversation about needs from this perspective of,

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I can't have my needs met because this person or this situation outside of me

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kind of holds the keys to that. And they're unwilling to do anything differently. They're unwilling to give me what I need

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in a multitude of ways. And it's clear that within your partnership, you've had a lot of these conversations,

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but I'm curious about how you talk to people who are on the really beginning side of it.

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Like I just, I want things that I am pretty sure my partner is not trying to give me.

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Yeah, I have a lot of feelings about this and I really am interested in your opinion.

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And for me, pretty fair play.

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And even like the months after finding fair play and reading it, I was already, I was already frustrated.

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I was already frustrated. And I don't say it with my husband, with myself.

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I was tired of believing that I couldn't have my needs met.

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And I would say things like, I really just want to blank. Like I wanna do, I wanna get involved in this.

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And my husband would be like, yeah, you should do it.

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And then I'd immediately, like you said, go to this like, well, I can't because you work nights and I do this.

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And how am I gonna get everything done? And I would just shut myself down immediately.

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And the word that I hear consistently, sure you hear this too, is resigned. I was resigned that this was life. And everybody

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else in my life is living like this. Every other mom is struggling as a mom, as a woman.

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And they all have partners. Most of the people I knew had partners who helped out around

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the house but weren't taking the household by the reins. And the advice that I give to

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people is first of all no one can hold a boundary but you.

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Music.

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Being in a state of vile misery all the time, telling yourself that you can't have the things you want

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while allowing your partner to have the things that they want.

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Or you can learn to value yourself and set those boundaries and hold those boundaries.

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Because what I see and I'm curious what you see is people either become alone in their partnerships,

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or they stay because of, And I really wanna validate this point.

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Our society makes it really hard to get a divorce. So maybe you stay for health insurance, security,

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for a variety of reasons. Maybe you stay, but emotionally you feel alone.

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Your needs are not being met. Or you begin to have parallel lives where you set your boundaries,

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you start going out on your own, you make intimate friendships with friends

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instead of your partner. Or you stay connected to your community and you kind of lose touch with them, or you get divorced.

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Unless you start speaking up and setting boundaries, boundaries are a relationship sustainer.

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If you want to stay in a relationship, in a loving relationship with someone you love,

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you're afraid they're not gonna meet your needs.

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What do you have to lose if you ask? It might end in disaster either way,

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but don't, I was afraid to ask. I asked and it hasn't been an incredibly easy transition, but my relationship after 13 years together

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is the best it has ever been because I got out of my own way.

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And I was like, I don't want this to be a divorce.

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I don't want to continue to feel alone or depleted. And I know my partner who loves me

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and wants to be married to me doesn't want me to feel that way. So I have to say something. And it's scary. But I had

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to do it. And I think other people can do it.

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Yeah, it is. It's, it's scary. And I think, you know, for me, I as a lifetime people pleaser,

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and kind of a recovering control freak, it was so hard to see that anything other than

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and like this is what it means to be a grownup, right?

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We are all like muscling through and doing shit that we hate and that's life.

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And that fear around, you know, if you show up as yourself and you are rejected,

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you've already been rejected. Like the bad thing is already happening, you just aren't interfacing with it.

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Which we don't, I mean, I hate that. I very much hate that. But it's true, you know, and I see this,

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I've had a couple of very substantial friend breakups over the last couple of years as I've

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become more of myself and really devastating to become more of yourself and have somebody say,

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you know, actually no thank you, but it was already broken and it comes out either way.

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Right? So maybe I don't ask for what I need. I'm resentful. Now I'm seething. Now I'm being a

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total asshole to everybody in my house because I'm not asking for what I need, but I am making it

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everybody else's problem that I'm not getting it. And I say that with compassion, of course,

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It's got to, our needs will be met in some way or the other. And my partner

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comes from a place of not really being raised in a family where needs are not a

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thing. And it's certainly not something that you're allowed to voice. So I would

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say their tolerance of my needs depends on where they're at on the day.

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But they can certainly see the benefit to the whole family when I'm fulfilled

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and I'm more relaxed and I'm carrying less. And I always like to point to that

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too. It's like you are the vessel for whatever it is you're trying to do, like your parenting,

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your work, your partnership. If you're not in good working order, everything suffers. You suffer,

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certainly, and everything suffers too. Whatever it is you're trying to protect by doing everything

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perfectly is suffering, even if you don't want to see that. Yeah, so true. So something that you,

19:07

I've seen you talk about recently on social media is this idea and you mentioned it before when you were talking this idea of.

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How somebody talking to somebody setting boundaries with you somebody talking to you about what they need that that's really a bid for connection.

19:25

So often it can be seen as like urinal you're the problem you're you know that the shadow side of that like you're being difficult but.

19:33

I really would love to hear you talk more about that because i think.

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So many of us are afraid to be that nag. And this reframe is so important.

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It's like, we talk to people about what we need because we want to stay in that relationship.

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We're trying to make that relationship livable, sustainable at bare minimum.

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Yeah, could you talk more about that? Yes, I picked that up from Nedra Tawaf's book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace.

20:02

And the revelation that that had for me, Because, okay, so the people I talk with,

20:08

the work that I do in domestic labor, fair play is an incredible tool.

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And that is a lot of what led me to this and has given me language to work with other people on it.

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But a lot of the work that I do independent of that is getting people to the table,

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or encouraging other people to do this.

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And when I realized that the hurt that I see and other people are these tiny rejections.

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And so a lot of times, like you said, people are protecting themselves.

20:43

I feel like I have been asking for what I need over and over again by saying,

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I need you to do more around the house. I need you to step up here or there.

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And whenever somebody doesn't do it or doesn't take it seriously or says,

20:57

that I work and you don't. They're tiny rejections. And so the term bids for connection I learned about from John and Julie

21:07

Gottman. And there's you can turn towards someone again, like I know, you know, this better than I

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do, probably. But when somebody brings something to you, I could be like, Oh, my gosh, look at

21:20

this cool flower. And my partner has the choice to turn and turn to me, turn toward and say,

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oh that is a cool flower, do you know what that is? Even if they don't care about the flower,

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they're turning toward me because they are making me feel like they're interested, they care,

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or they can turn away, they can look at their phone, they can not engage, they can say hey

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we're walking here, like can you stop deli-dallying? And that's the same thing that happens within a

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household is when I come to my partner and I say I need some help, I'm feeling really overwhelmed,

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they have the choice to say, you know what, this is even to me a rejection. Well, give me a list.

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Tell me what you need. It can go either way over and over again. I don't think people realize.

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That they're doing it, but continuing to throw it back at your partner and say, well, I don't have

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time. Tell me what you I don't have time. Tell me what you need me to do. Or, God, you're always

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telling me what to do or like this you're being an ag stop bossing me around I just want to sit on

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the couch is a constant turning away constantly telling them I'm not interested in the things

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that you have to do what you care about how we keep this house they don't care in the meantime

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like you said when I come to you and I'm unhappy or I need something it's because I want you to meet

22:51

that need. I want you to join me in it. I wouldn't ask if I didn't want you.

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And I do think it a bad sign from a lot of the people who come to me and that I should say that,

23:03

a sign that things have been very fractured is when they stop asking. You stop saying I want

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your help. Okay, because you're not you're no longer trust that your partner is going to turn

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toward you and say, I want to help you. I want to be there for you. You can't trust that anymore. So

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Yeah, the asking, asking to join, asking to set a boundary and stay together.

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That's what that's about. Yeah, I love the Gottman's myself.

23:34

I love relationship theory. It's something that I just find so compelling because I think, you know, the way that people

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relate and also for my work, the way that we begin to encode information about things

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through our relationships over the course of our lives.

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And of course, when it comes to meeting our needs, you know, this didn't just start with

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whatever relationships we're having now as adults, you know, we've been trying to get our needs met

24:02

and not getting them at or getting them at in ways that were overwhelming or underwhelming or,

24:07

made to feel a certain way for having needs over the course of our entire lives. And so it can feel,

24:13

I think so loaded to ask.

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You know, it's like I can bring myself to ask, but I don't have the capacity to tolerate you saying

24:25

anything other than, okay, great.

24:27

Yes, yes, yes. This has happened at work with me many times. I don't wanna rock the boat.

24:34

I want to maintain, like I wanna be that I am a really strong and independent employee,

24:41

and I'll ask for something, and then I've had bosses downplay or not,

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or punish me for asking, and that's awful.

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It feels terrible when you carry it with you and i think this is for from a needs perspective for

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me where i always want to be so compassionate to people like yeah it is really hard and your,

25:02

primary relationship can feel like such high stakes to engage in this work and also such high reward

25:13

Exactly. The not asking is giving yourself a no. So one thing that I have learned is

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it's all about American dreamism. The idea that you can meet all of your needs within

25:27

your partnership is very dangerous because then you're so reliant on the minimal, for

25:35

a lot of people, the minimal support that they are getting in their partnership that

25:39

they're so scared. It's so scary. Like, okay, if I don't have this, what do I have? And that is

25:46

another reason I really, really, really encourage like if you you think your partner is going to

25:51

absolutely reject the idea of, hey, let's sit down with this system. Let's divide domestic labor.

25:55

Music.

26:00

Let's address the imbalance, then hold your boundary around your time. Join an in person,

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I say in person because you have to draw a hard line, get out of the house if you can.

26:11

In person class or book club or sports team, begin to make connections that build up your

26:21

community and it will feel less scary to have these conversations.

26:25

It will feel less risky because you feel like.

26:32

I'm in this relationship by choice. This is something that can enrich my life, because I

26:38

know that I can have my needs met elsewhere. Well, and frankly, you know, this is one of

26:43

the reasons why I send so many of your social media posts to so many people, because I think

26:49

what I find is having voices. I think I originally found your page through my sister who had just had

26:56

had a baby and she was really exploring the side of the internet, which is like moms thinking

27:03

about how this all works, you know, and knowing that I would be interested.

27:08

And now I am. It's so it is so satisfying to consume.

27:13

I appreciate that. Yes, I am similarly angry about all of these things. And I love to hear you talk about it.

27:20

I think I absolutely am for joining things where you can meet other people and have your

27:27

needs met in person. Having your partnership be the only place where your needs are met

27:31

is impossible. It is an unrealistic expectation. But also, if you're starting to feel this

27:38

kind of way, I find listening to you say similar things in different ways over and over and

27:45

for again, really solidifies that idea. It's like where maybe somebody who's struggling with this

27:53

might have a hard time holding on to their own confidence. They can borrow from yours.

27:59

I appreciate that. That is a really important thing. At least on the internet, and I've connected

28:06

with a lot of journalists and authors and podcasters, and all of these people are creating

28:12

content from their own perspective. And sometimes I get in my own head and I'm like, I'm just saying

28:20

the same thing over and over again, people must know it by now. And then I find myself like this,

28:27

I get a babysitter every week so that I can catch up on work or even just go to a bookstore and get

28:33

a smoothie and not have to do bedtime by myself. Like my husband works nights, so it's annoying

28:39

with a three-year-old and a six-year-old. And this week I canceled the babysitter because

28:44

I had a family emergency last week and I had to hire someone twice. So I was like,

28:49

I'm going to skip out and I get, I feel guilty. But then Thursday night came and I was like,

28:56

oh no, no, I needed to prioritize my needs here. I'm, I'm burnt out. So I need to hear my own voice.

29:03

I need to hear myself saying these things over and over and over again so I don't doubt it.

29:10

And I read all the books and I listened to all the episodes. I don't think there are too many people saying.

29:19

This is not what other adult partnership parenthood needs to look like we have the ability to reshape how you do things.

29:29

Yeah well and if you think about it there's so many so many voices that are saying things to the contrary and reinforcing the status quo and so you know really intentionally surrounding yourself with voices that.

29:46

Like build up that those fledgling beliefs inside of you can be so transformative.

29:53

So who do you follow? Who does that for you? Okay, I'm gonna have to send you a whole list,

29:59

of people and hopefully you can put in the show notes or something, but obviously Fairplay and Eve Ronsky,

30:08

and Helen Peterson is doing a bunch of great work.

30:11

Chelsea Conaboy, just I hope I'm saying that right, wrote a book called Mother Brain and it's about the neuroscience behind parenthood. I want to say.

30:22

I mean a lot of authors, if the book How We Show Up by Mia Birdsong completely changed how I

30:29

understood care and what I needed for myself. Nedra Tawab has an incredible newsletter and

30:36

and Instagram where she does Medra nuggets.

30:41

And it's like one to two lines about something something that encourages you to hold the boundary.

30:49

So I'm thankful. I mean, my feed, Renee Reyna from the mom room podcast.

30:56

It's so many people are talking about this now. It is so encouraging.

31:01

It is so encouraging. I agree, thank you for all of those resources.

31:07

I will put them in the show notes. It is so encouraging and.

31:11

Is beautiful to be a part of a conversation that is both instigating and also soothing,

31:22

I would imagine, for so many people. And I'm curious, I mean, I imagine you get a fair amount

31:28

of pushback. Do you get pushback? Surprisingly, no. No, I don't. And I think I do think

31:36

I think I'm very strategic about, you know, a lot of my content, I will take like a trending

31:42

joke or a content that someone else has made as an example of a social norm.

31:50

And my platform has grown exponentially in the last year. And I what I would have talked about a year ago, I will not publicly talk about now, because

32:02

there's been a there's been a change. Been a change in the public conversation. A lot of people still come to the internet,

32:08

to TikTok or Instagram comment sections and are being really vulnerable about like, I

32:16

want to hear a lot is, you know, I'm jealous of my husband, my life changed when we had.

32:20

Music.

32:25

A baby and his didn't. And I hear people sharing that experience. And then in the comment sections,

32:28

will be like, yeah, me too. Oh, I feel you. But there has been, when people try to make

32:35

light about it now, there is less tolerance for that. And so that is a weird space to

32:42

be in because I never want to contribute to someone sharing their experience. And the

32:49

majority of American households are dealing the data shows are dealing with these issues.

32:56

So sharing out loud and trying to commiserate should not be punished.

33:01

So if anything, sometimes I have conflicts and I have to be really careful about commenting

33:07

on people's vulnerabilities. So I try to highlight the misogynistic joke that would like pair with it well.

33:14

I periodically get a tiny bit of pushback from men who say.

33:20

Well, I go, I work. And so if I work, then I shouldn't have to do things at home, like, what's her job? And that I think is just incredibly blatant misogyny. And it's not tolerated well. So it's really easy for me to cite data to put dollar signs to on the tasks that are done, I could talk about how long certain things take.

33:44

I mean, I even have the data of the average worker, how long they actually spend working

33:50

during a day, even blue collar.

33:53

I got all the data to back me up about how there is imbalance.

33:58

That happens rarely because my message is not, men are bad.

34:03

I do not believe that. I don't believe that at all.

34:07

I think that everyone misses out when you don't both feel empowered at home.

34:11

You know, Eve Rodzki says like, women can't be empowered out in the world if men aren't empowered at home.

34:17

And that's not a gendered thing. Anybody cannot be empowered out in the world unless they feel supported and cared for and

34:25

empowered in their personal life.

34:27

So if my message is that, how are you going to come back at me and say I'm wrong? I'm not wrong.

34:34

Well, you're not wrong. That's fact.

34:37

I do imagine it has a lot of feelings that show up there. And I was thinking about that this morning

34:45

and about how as much as asking somebody for what you need is an invitation and also a declaration

34:56

that you care about the relationship and you want to stay in it, the content that you create for me

35:02

feels like an invitation and rooted in an expectation that it is possible for people

35:07

to rise to the occasion. Yeah, I love that. That's what I'm trying for. The other piece that I feel really passionately

35:16

and strongly about is, like you said, I want to be really compassionate that there's a

35:22

lot of content out there of some, you know, woman leaves her husband at home with the

35:29

baby and things turn into a disaster. And people in the comment sections or will stitch

35:34

these or comment on it and they'll be like, I would never, I would never be with a man

35:39

who blah, blah, blah, blah. I would never, how do people settle for this? I never want

35:45

to send that message because life is complex. And there are a variety of reasons we are

35:50

led into partnerships that don't feel good. And like you said, I want it to be an invitation

36:00

to assess your own needs, to try thinking about your capacity and what does feel good.

36:07

It doesn't have to happen all at once. Even if you spend the rest of your life with someone who you love.

36:14

But you still fold their laundry every day and you get to be a part of a sock like an indoor soccer

36:19

team once a year like cool that might work for you but to know that you can ask for the things

36:26

that feel good for you is like it shouldn't be revolutionary but it's revolutionary.

36:30

Yeah it's profound the way that we internalize the systems that exist externally and recreate

36:39

them in our relationships through our scope of what we think is possible to ask for. Like what.

36:45

We even think is possible to need to ask ourselves for. And I'm curious what you think about, you know,

36:52

how we can ask for more of what we want. Because I think sometimes I'll encounter people who.

37:00

They'll have summoned up enough energy, which of course this is a process and this does take a lot

37:05

a lot of energy and I'm saying this with tons of compassion.

37:07

Summon up enough energy to say even a small fraction of what they really want.

37:13

And then you enter into the kind of conversation, okay, I want this, you want that.

37:17

And you end up with now an even smaller fraction.

37:21

How can we, I don't know, be bright, like feel as though we're allowed to ask

37:26

for all of what we want and trust that we can work it out in the relationship, just because you ask for the full,

37:34

the whole thing of what you want. Doesn't mean you're gonna get the whole thing of what you want, but you're certainly gonna get more

37:39

of what you want and need than if you had already censored yourself in your own mind before making the ask.

37:47

Yeah, I would say a series of stories.

37:50

Music.

37:56

My therapist asked me when I decided to leave my job, and I now I implement this in my relationships

38:04

and the choices I made, which is just what need is this meeting? And when I realized,

38:12

I think it often makes me think like, you know, like you said, in a friendship, like,

38:18

ooh, is this meeting a need for me? Is it meeting the need of like, I'm feeling secure? I know

38:24

I'm safe, like this person's always gonna be here if I need to, but questioning if it is even meeting a need.

38:33

Can really help you decide like, or are you, you know what, okay, this is another one.

38:38

My friend, Maite on TikTok sent this really profound thing that I cannot get out of my head,

38:45

which was if you love someone for their potential, if you love something for their potential,

38:52

you are the potential. You are you the one making up the difference, meeting your own needs within this partnership?

39:01

Are you convincing yourself that they're meeting this need and you're actually the one doing it?

39:06

So just shifting and really like constantly living with that question in your head of,

39:12

could I get this need met elsewhere, like through my sports league,

39:16

through making more frequent calls to my mother?

39:20

Or is this something that I would like that would make me feel good.

39:25

Yeah, I think you just need to like, keep this, follow me. I'm just gonna yell that at you every day.

39:30

Surround yourself with people who will encourage you, but also question, question it.

39:38

Thank you. So we're almost at the end, but I wanna know about this deck.

39:43

Like I wanna know about the magic card. I think this is something,

39:46

the concept of having within a relationship that you're dividing up responsibilities in such a way

39:55

that one person is not still secretly responsible,

39:58

for half of the thing. That they're quote unquote delegating.

40:01

In my house, I'm known to be like, I am not the holder and knower of all of the things,

40:06

even though, yeah, I've been conditioned.

40:08

My brain does know where that one sock is. My mind, I do know whether or not we have diapers

40:13

and when we have to order more. My brain can't stop doing that, but I have to actively stop myself from doing that.

40:20

And I love how you talk about this.

40:22

And I think it would be, it's just really important for people to understand

40:28

when it comes to their emotional labor and the mental load, how they might still be hooked in,

40:32

even if they're, first of all, delegating, what is that?

40:36

But even if they think they're dividing up household tasks.

40:41

Yeah, so the biggest concept, but there are a couple of concepts within the Fair Play method,

40:46

one really big one is the idea of the CPE.

40:50

Music.

40:57

A school email yesterday, actually during our recording, he just texted me and he's like, did you fill that out?

41:03

So obviously he has the mental load on that, but we got an email about summer camp.

41:09

And someone in your household needs to know that you have to have, there's a conception of the task,

41:16

the anticipation of a need, we need summer care.

41:21

So that's the C, C for conception and then P is planning.

41:26

So at this point, my husband, you know, he got the email, he read the email, he said,

41:31

this is something we need to do. He then forwarded the email to me with a comment that said, hey, do we want to do summer camp

41:40

or do we want to consider signing the big kid up for soccer or gymnastics or something?

41:47

And I was like, I don't really know. I would, you know, I gave him my input because I'm a stakeholder in this home and he's still

41:55

ultimately responsible for it, but he consulted me. What would I like? How do we feel about how

42:01

we raise our kids? Do I have time off this summer or no? And then the execution is signing up or

42:11

paying attention to when registration is, making sure I get the paperwork done, all that. So,

42:17

So ultimately, my husband is holding the summer childcare card.

42:24

He is responsible. If he needs me to fill out certain paperwork, he has to ask me. I'm not managing it.

42:31

Is fully capable. But it took two years where I was managing it before, two years of doing it together,

42:41

for him to feel confident. And it's truly him. He thinks I'm better at it. I'm not.

42:46

Just this morning I forgot to make my kid lunch. Like I am doing better, but I have had practice.

42:52

And so it will take time. But he loves our kids. He's engaged with them. He wants to instill

43:00

the same values in them. So he takes it. I think that's such a great point of

43:06

having more practice. And you know so often when dividing up labor in this way

43:13

can feel like, well I am better. I mean I'm literally built for it and that is a

43:18

fact. I am literally built to occupy this role. I have been receiving social

43:25

messaging my entire life that gives me the skills that make me custom fit for this role and also.

43:34

That doesn't mean I'm the only one who can do it. Right. Yes. And I will tell you it takes,

43:41

like you said, it takes so long and it takes intention to let go. But I can confidently

43:49

tell you, he had to text me because I forgot to give him input on it. Like he, I really,

43:56

it is not on my plate. It is not on my mental load. I didn't even think about it. Just like

44:02

I think so many, so many primary caregivers are like, I feel like I always have to remind

44:07

him like you should have equal opportunity to be the brain dead one, like the one who's

44:14

not paying attention to it. You should be able to split. It truly is splitting the mental

44:19

alone. He gets to worry about just as much as I get to worry about. We share it. Share the annoying.

44:27

The back end mental stuff. We each get our turn. Awesome. Oh, Laura, it has been such a delight

44:35

having you here. Thank you for hanging out with us. If there was somebody listening to this who

44:41

was like, okay, I want to need some of that, but I don't know where to begin. What would you tell

44:48

them. So I think three books, three books, check them out from the library, get them at your local

44:56

bookstore, wherever, start with Fair Play and then go to How We Show Up by Mia Birdsong and then Nadra Nadra.

45:07

Music.

45:17

Is so important awesome thank you so much where can we find you i'm gonna join tick tock after this conversation i'm pretty sure you know what i'm a lot more i post maybe three times the content on tick tock.

45:33

Wow because tick tock functions differently and.

45:38

You can like click through someone's comments and bring it back to a video and it provides way more context for what i talk about.

45:45

So it's lost when I repost over on Instagram sometimes. So yes, three times, two, two or three times content over on TikTok.

45:54

But yeah, you can find me on TikTok. I do post a lot on Instagram at that darn chat.

46:01

I have a YouTube video that is like 10 minutes. You can put me on 2X speed.

46:06

It's a YouTube video about Fair Play. And there's a Fair Play podcast that you've Rotsky does.

46:11

A Fair Play documentary that you can get on Hulu. I'm not in those, but they're a good start.

46:18

Yeah, so you can find me online. Awesome. Thank you so much, Laura.

46:23

Yeah, thank you so much. It's been super fun. Music.

46:35

Thanks for listening to the NeNe Podcast with Mara Glatzel. If you want my support in learning

46:39

how to nourish your needs, dance on over to theneedypodcast.com to take my quiz to figure out

46:45

what you need right now and how to meet those needs with a greater sense of ease and confidence.

46:50

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whipped up for you, skip to the needypodcast.com. And, as always, permission loves company,

47:16

so if there is a human in your life that you think will benefit from this conversation,

47:20

I will be so grateful. Music.