1:10

Music.

1:29

Host Mark glatzel and you are listening to the needy podcast.

1:34

Here at needy we are devoted to sharing Frank conversations and true stories about what it means to meet your needs consistently messily and sustainably.

1:44

Needy is a listener funded podcast your contributions and enable us to continue bringing you the delicious conversations you adore without advertisement or interruption,

1:55

to become a member of the needy Inner Circle and to get information about today's episode dance on over to the needy podcast.com.

2:04

Music.

2:12

Welcome back it's the only podcast I am so excited to be here today with today's guests Melissa Urban Melissa just came out with a book on boundaries that is so fabulous and I had,

2:24

the distinct honor of getting to read the book ahead of time so I'm just thrilled to get to share her work with you and to have her answer some of our needy Inner Circle communities pressing questions about boundaries

2:37

Melissa is c.e.o. of the Whole 30 and an authority on helping people create lifelong healthy habits.

2:44

She's a six-time New York Times bestselling author including the number one bestseller the Whole 30.

2:50

And has been featured by The Today Show Good Morning America the New York Times The Wall Street Journal Forbes and CNBC she lives with her husband son and poodle named Henry in Salt Lake City Utah,

3:02

welcome Melissa I'm so excited to have you here Laura I've been so excited for this conversation as well so thank you for asking.

3:09

Before we get into you and your needs and your boundaries I would love to just if there's a person on Earth who doesn't know who you are I'm not sure but for that person,

3:19

who are you what do you do why do you do what you do.

3:23

Yeah well my name is Melissa Urban I'm best known for being the co-founder and CEO of the Whole 30.

3:31

Which is a 30-day self experiment designed to help people identify the foods that work best for them and really reset their health habits and relationship with food.

3:42

So that's kind of I think we're most people will know me from but you know in addition to that I'm a mom of one fantastic nine year old boy,

3:52

and my wife's I'm an avid hiker I read like most people breathe and I have interest that I talked about on my personal website and Instagram Channel,

4:02

the biggest of which right now include the subject of boundaries setting and holding healthy boundaries and the freedoms that those boundaries can bring in every area of your life.

4:12

So good I feel like there is not a topic that is more

4:12

misbranded.

4:20

Said and now injuries people we all need them most of us don't even know what they are or how to set them and I feel so privileged to have gotten to read an advance copy of your book which is fantastic.

4:35

Have you always known how to set boundaries.

4:37

Thank you so much it when you sent me your kind of advanced thoughts on the book I did a legitimate happy dance like an actual happy dance in my living room it meant so much no I was not born knowing how to set boundaries

4:51

most of us were dare I say all of us weren't you know this is one of those super important life skills like.

4:59

Financial management or communication that we're not taught in school we're almost never modeled by our parents or our families were not taught in the workplace

5:11

and when you discover boundaries it's this like game changer for your self confidence in your relationships

5:17

but I very much had to learn the hard way along with I think you know everybody else where I found myself in my 20s in a really precarious position

5:29

and recognize that the only way I was going to be able to protect my,

5:34

physical health my mental health in that moment my very life was to set an actual boundary

5:41

and that was the start of my journey Post drug addiction in my recovery

5:47

realizing that boundaries were going to be the key not only to my recovery but to making my life bigger and more expansive than I ever imagined

5:57

yes

5:57

yeah you know I would love to know from you kind of like what a boundary is and what about Andre isn't but I think,

6:06

one of the things that really strikes me around boundaries is that we think.

6:11

That boundaries limit us instead of create this vast openness of consent and open communication and the ability to thrive in our relationships.

6:26

And it's amazing how we think it's this really confining ultimatum sort of conversation we don't want to have that guaranteed to you know evoke a conflict we get so much wrong about boundaries.

6:39

We do we do it it boundaries have been really misunderstood and maybe even misbranded by the people who benefit from us having none so you know I think a lot of people think that boundaries are selfish or mean

6:54

and they are nothing of the sort boundaries are in fact kind.

6:59

People aren't mind reader's we should not expect them to know where our limits lie or the way that they can engage with us in a way that keeps us,

7:09

safe and healthy the way that we communicate that,

7:13

with the people we love in the people we care about is by setting and holding clear boundaries,

7:19

I think people think that boundaries are about controlling someone else's Behavior I set a boundary to tell you what to do and again that's not at all the truth in fact that's,

7:31

not even possible we know that you can't control someone else's Behavior a boundary is not about telling someone else what to do it is about what telling them what,

7:41

we will do to hold our own limits around our time our energy our mental health our money our physical space,

7:51

so I think those are two really big misconceptions about boundaries that when you reframe them,

7:57

you realize that boundaries are a gift they are an invitation to the people you love the people who you want in your life.

8:05

To show up in your life in a way that works for both of you in a way that keeps you both

8:11

safe and healthy in an environment of trust and mutual respect and the kind of clear and kind communication

8:20

that boundaries Evoque is truly a gift to give you some of the healthiest relationships whether it's a friendship or a relationship with a boss or a colleague or a co-parent or a romantic partner

8:35

boundaries are what will make that relationship healthier and happier and thrive.

8:41

Yes absolutely as you're speaking something that I was thinking about was being on the receiving end of somebody who has really impeccable boundaries.

8:52

Is for me so it's such a relief to know that I can trust you so for example like I can trust you I can email you and ask you for a thing and I'm going to know that.

9:05

You're going to say yes or no based on your capacity and I can totally trust.

9:11

In receiving whatever you say yes to because I know that's how you operate.

9:17

Yes honestly your yeses mean more when you learn how to say no.

9:24

Because you know now because I'm not afraid to say no if you said hey I would love you to do the can you appear on my podcast and if I didn't have capacity or the emotional energy or the time.

9:34

I would say I really appreciate the invitation but it's not something I can accommodate right now now the next time you ask me something and I say yes you know I'm not saying yes resentfully,

9:45

or begrudgingly or because I think I have to you know that my yes is a genuine yes so that clear and kind communication I keep borrowing this phrase that,

9:54

using brene brown spoke dare to lead what she so graciously allowed me to use in the book of boundaries but this clear is kind communication,

10:04

he's like such a game-changer for any relationship including the relationship you have with your professional colleagues yes.

10:11

Absolutely so we have a few

10:15

boundary questions from the needy audience that I would love to share with you everyone was so excited to get your your take on things and I want to just put in a plug for your Weekly Newsletter because something that I heard from

10:32

every single person who submitted a question was

10:35

how much they get out of your newsletter every single week especially when it comes to the examples that you share of how boundary show up and of course in the book you share so many.

10:45

But that you have a real knack for responding to your audience and creating content that is so useful so.

10:54

If you're not on Melissa's newsletter list I read it I read very few newsletters I read every single week it's so good and many of you are big fans as well.

11:04

Thank you that means so much I right you know I only I write all my own stuff I don't use a Ghostwriter and maybe someday I will,

11:12

but for now writing is the thing the part of my job that I enjoy the most and I'm not willing to give that up or Outsource that to anyone else and I write this newsletter fresh every single week.

11:23

And I loved it and I really do pour myself into it and I tell people every week on Instagram you should subscribe because my newsletter is really good.

11:31

And I love hearing people's experience that matches what I think of my own you know what of my own work product I mean the only,

11:40

hmm yeah that's satisfying yeah you think it's good and so do I yeah,

11:47

all right so I theme that came up a lot in the questions had to do with.

11:54

How do we hold boundaries with ourselves and it showed up in a couple of different ways but this first one I thought was so good and I'll just read it out loud.

12:03

I find it really hard to keep promises to myself when times are challenging even when I know that it will help me to keep taking really good care of myself.

12:12

How do you set boundaries with yourself and strike a balance between holding yourself accountable to your promises while also being compassionate about your compromised capacity.

12:23

So there's an entire I wrote an entire chapter in the book of boundaries on this concept of self boundaries because.

12:32

In some ways setting a boundary with yourself is easy the only person you need to rely on,

12:39

to respect that boundary is yourself right so you're not trying to convince your pushy mother-in-law or your toxic co-worker that this is the best way to engage with you the healthiest way,

12:51

you're only talking to yourself so in that aspect of self boundary can be easier but.

12:56

In many ways it's so much harder because.

13:02

The only person you're setting the boundary with this yourself which means if you disrespect the boundary the only person who's going to know,

13:08

is you so you tell yourself I'm going to go to bed early tonight.

13:13

Because when I stay up late and just bend out on Netflix I get mad at myself for that behavior frustrated with myself for not taking care of my you know self care and getting to bed early.

13:25

I go to bed late I wake up tired I miss my workout in the morning which just makes me not feel my best.

13:32

Okay that's yourself boundary you're going to go to bed late but what happens when you do go to bed late instead of going to bed early.

13:38

Like you might think about it and say well nothing happens I'm the only one who knows.

13:43

Nobody is going to hold me accountable but myself and the only thing that happens is that I go to bed late.

13:49

So it can be really challenging to hold a boundary with yourself

13:53

furthermore it can start to feel like your own self boundaries are like a punishment

14:00

if you don't word them or think about them carefully so I think about moms for example I'm a mom you're a mom

14:08

sometimes the only time we get to ourselves between what our kid goes to bed and when we go to bed and as much as I want to go to bed early it can feel really hard to put myself to bed early because I feel like I'm depriving myself of,

14:22

these different activities that I either could do or should do in this is the only downtime that I have so when I talk about self boundaries

14:31

I think of lot about thinking about future me you will hear the phrase future you in the book of boundaries often

14:39

and what you really need to do in terms of the consequences of not holding a self boundary is not think about well what happens in the moment because what happens in the moment is I just stay up late and watch another half hour if Netflix but what happens to Future me.

14:54

Is far more severe of a consequence so in thinking about a self boundary what happens to Future me well okay,

15:02

future me is going to go to bed mad at myself for not practicing myself care I'm going to be exhausted and maybe have that tired and wired feeling which I know I don't like and leads to a worst night's sleep I'm going to wake up tomorrow may be late

15:16

maybe feeling cranky without the energy to work out,

15:19

and I'm not going to like waking up and not moving my body that's not going to make me feel my best and that is not going to start my day off in a way that works really well for me which may Cascade into my mood

15:31

and my focus and my productivity and how I talk to myself for the rest of my day.

15:37

So when you phrase it like that future you is going to be seriously negatively impacted by this decision then I like to take it one step further,

15:46

if I hold this promise to myself and there's a whole other conversation to be had about why you are worthy of holding this promise to yourself,

15:55

what freedoms will I gain from holding this boundary and what I think about it like that now all of a sudden,

16:04

I will be free to get to bed at an hour that I know is taking the best care of me I will be free too

16:13

not you know luxuriate in bed for that extra 10 minutes and maybe

16:17

read a book or listen to a guided meditation a practice that I really enjoy knowing that that is contributing to a good night sleep I'll be free to get a better night's sleep and sleep longer

16:28

and deeper I will be free to wake up in the morning with more energy more vitality

16:34

more enthusiasm for whatever I want to do that morning whether it's a workout

16:38

or walk or journaling or maybe even just getting 10 extra minutes of sleep I'll know that I'm doing that by choice instead of by necessity and I will be free to craft exactly the kind of day

16:50

I want to have for myself or tomorrow knowing that I have nurtured my body and my mind and my spirit in this moment.

16:58

When you put it like that.

17:00

It is like okay this is not just I'm going to go to bed earlier this decision has real impact in real value on my life and how I,

17:12

talk to myself in a view myself and care for myself and will have an immediate,

17:18

and enormous impact on future me and I will look back on this and be so grateful for the freedoms that I have given myself with this one small decision.

17:28

That's how I want people to start thinking about boundaries with yourself.

17:34

While you were saying that I was thinking that that like the underpinning of that to is the future you matters.

17:44

The quality of your life matters that your personal experience even if nobody else knows whether you stayed up late or whether you're tired

17:52

but your experience of being inside of your own body inside of your own life matters yes and that is one small way that you can,

18:02

simply owner your own need that you can connect with yourself check in with yourself.

18:08

And honor your own need it seems like something really small I went to bed a half an hour early last night but when you think about it from the perspective of the consequences to Future view versus the freedoms that future you will experience

18:22

it is not a small decision at all it is a huge win and something you should absolutely high-five yourself for.

18:30

It's amazing how kind that feels too because I think so many of us are.

18:35

Socialize to keep boundaries or hold ourselves accountable I mean even that like the wording for me hold myself accountable feels really scary because of how I was taught to do that which was really by threat of punishment or cruelty or.

18:50

Making myself a problem to be fixed and.

18:54

Thinking about what you're free you know how you're free to experience your day what you're free to do based on that decision is such a delicious way to think about it.

19:03

It is and it doesn't mean that your day is going to go well,

19:06

okay going to bed earlier doesn't mean that I'm not going to wake up and my kid is going to be in a perfect mood and I'm not going to have any emergency emails but what it means is that I will be free,

19:16

to navigate those situations from a more expansive energetic,

19:21

capacity and that is huge whatever comes up in that day I know I will be better prepared to face it because of the very.

19:31

Small that kind of decision I made for myself the night before yes.

19:37

So I'm realizing now that all of these boundary questions that I have here are all cells boundaries.

19:44

Well kind of I mean indirectly yeah,

19:48

you know I think a lot of times when it comes to boundaries and I'll be curious if you think it's like the first boundary that you're setting is with yourself about what you what you find acceptable what you desire.

20:01

First having that agreement with yourself before you even communicate it to anyone else.

20:05

Yes you know one of the things I say so often in the book and in so many Communications I have with readers who send me their boundaries scenarios is,

20:15

you have to get incredibly clear on what your limit is before you attempt to communicate that to somebody else very often people will come to me with a scenario and say,

20:27

this relationship isn't feeling good I have an example of somebody who was asked to go to their all of their parents,

20:35

houses on the very like holiday day on Christmas day they were expected to all four sets of parents homes and she said I cannot do that this year it's not I can't do it and so okay.

20:48

Tell me what about this scenario is so overwhelming tell me what about it feels like you are being pushed over your limit and when we went through it.

20:56

It turns out it wasn't the visiting of four different houses in a single day she actually enjoyed that part she liked seeing them the issue was that at one house in particular.

21:08

The parents made her feel guilty when it was time to leave and always tried to get her to stick around later and made her feel bad for going to the opposite parents home.

21:18

That was where she needed to set the boundary it wasn't that she wasn't willing to make these drugs or she wasn't willing to see everyone so,

21:27

even in the case of self boundaries or even when you think maybe it's a boundary you need to set with someone else the first question you need to ask is what specifically is my limit here where do I need to set the limit

21:38

and then your question could be is this a limit I need to set with myself first and then realize that there's a piece of this that I need to communicate with someone else.

21:47

Yes absolutely.

21:50

Which you know having that increased capacity mean I know it was just an example about going to bed early but for me it's a real example of having that increased capacity of that extra half an hour of sleep too.

22:04

Have the energy to communicate with myself about what I actually want instead of just you know run my day on default.

22:11

Yes because when you when I stay and I'm saying me because this is I gave that example because that's my example to when I stay late up late scrolling through Netflix or Tik-Tok or whatever screen I happen to be on it is because I have,

22:25

purposely disconnected from myself I have said no no no I know my body it's like that me more your body is like

22:32

we need water we need sleeping like I don't know what it could be if I disconnect from myself that's when I am scrolling Netflix or Tick-Tock I'm not taking a moment to check in and ask for what I need and even just the fact of

22:47

taking a moment to say okay what do I really need in this moment like that is the win it's not even is it going to bed early sure that's huge that's a huge benefit but

22:57

the fact that I stopped to ask myself okay but what do I need.

23:03

Let's just call that like the initial win that's huge and if we can learn to make that more of a habit.

23:09

I think that's going to make all of these conversations whether it's with ourselves or other people so much easier.

23:15

Yes absolutely okay so the next one is another self boundary,

23:23

but with somebody who gives all she says I give all of my time away mmm-hmm things I schedule for myself always feel optional and when I know someone else needs me I find myself pushing those things to the back burner.

23:35

And then I end up feeling resentful because I don't do the things that I really wanted to do and I'm stuck in this pattern yeah.

23:42

There is a Byron I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Byron Katie she wrote the book loving what is she has this practice called for questions where you're sort of.

23:50

Identifying your story about a situation from the actual situation that's happening and one of the things my therapist says to me all the time is that we prefer.

24:02

The situation we are in even if it is hell.

24:06

To the unknown the unknown is so scary and uncomfortable that we would rather just be in the discomfort that we're in even if it's awful.

24:14

Then like take that new step and that's immediately what I thought of when I think of this idea I'm hearing things in here like.

24:22

I know someone else needs me and I would say well is that true does that person really.

24:28

Need you there are very few situations in my life where me not showing up for that person is like a serious issue.

24:37

Most of the time. It's either they're asking something of me and I could show up in this way or I could show up in a different way or I could show up not at all or.

24:47

I'm imagining that I'm the only one who can step in and fix this situation provides support in this situation handled the situation and,

24:56

to be honest that's not at all true so you know I think the first thing I'm thinking about here is that you are constantly giving your time away and then you end up feeling resentful and that leads to this like,

25:10

shame cycle this guilt cycle and of course that is not at all productive one of the first very practical things I would say is are you building in,

25:20

margins into your life I love this idea of purposefully building in,

25:27

margins so that my time and energy is not ever 100% accounted for the moment I wake up in the morning.

25:36

So when I tell my son it's time for breakfast we have 10 extra minutes in there in case he dawdles or we get delayed.

25:44

When I schedule a zoom meeting I don't ever schedule them back-to-back I make sure there's at least 10 minutes in between so that I have time to go to the bathroom or have a quick snack or if the meeting runs over I'm not like Domino enjoy the rest of my day.

25:59

So thinking about this idea of can I start building small margins into my day maybe that means waking up 10 minutes earlier.

26:06

And having 10 minutes to yourself to start your day off feeling proactive instead of reactive no maybe it means even though your family would you know love for you to participate in the board game after dinner

26:20

like no spouses in charge of that right now I'm going to go take

26:23

you know 10 or 15 minutes and do some tidying organizing or have some quiet time I think there are ways to build in margins conscientiously throughout the day even if it's five minutes here or there that might help in this situation,

26:36

the other thing is that honestly you have to recognize that your needs matter.

26:44

Your energy matters you cannot keep lighting yourself on fire to keep other people warm as the saying goes you can't do it for other people and you cannot continue to abandon yourself.

26:58

Just to help other people you can't pour from an empty cup,

27:01

and if you really want to be there effectively for other people in your life if you want to have something to give

27:09

to your friends to your family to your kids to your work colleagues you have to make sure that you are pouring from a cup that is adequately full.

27:19

And if you're not to be honest you're giving all of your time away to somebody else but it's not particularly effective because you don't have a lot of capacity.

27:29

And you're never taking a moment to refill your own cup.

27:33

So I think the way you start doing this I realize this doesn't come naturally to you I understand it's uncomfortable I understand that you might have to do work with yourself.

27:42

Or with a therapist or counselor about the fact that you are worthy of having needs and taking care of your needs but start small.

27:51

Find a small space in which you can preserve your time just for you and recognize that the world doesn't fall apart.

28:01

Everyone goes on. Everyone is fine you can take that five minutes in the morning you can take that five minutes in the evening you can say no to that thing that someone asked you to do that is not necessary for you to be there it was just an invitation.

28:17

And you can say no for no reason other than I don't want to,

28:22

and I can give you a dozen different really kind ways to say that but practice take that small opportunity to say I choose me.

28:33

And see how it feels. And see if it feels uncomfortable and explore what that discomfort looks like and why and and maybe you work through that or process that in your therapy or in your journaling but,

28:44

you don't have to start off with like the biggest things possible I think in with boundaries when it comes to boundaries people feel like they need to like.

28:52

If they are used to being people Pleasers they kind of like immediately gravitate towards the nuclear option where you just,

29:00

throw a huge wall up and burn it all down and that's not at all where you need to start and I don't think that's healthy for you or your relationships you can start small

29:09

but I need you to get some small Wings here where you have an example of protecting your time and your space and your peace.

29:15

And see that it's okay I need that for you you need to build that self-confidence

29:15

beautiful.

29:22

When I first read this question I had a gut reaction because I missed used to be me 100% And.

29:32

The gut reaction was to that that part where I know someone else needs me.

29:37

And I love that you brought that Byron Katie question and because I use those myself but that piece of one of the boundaries I have learned to set in relationships in my own life is.

29:49

If you need something from me you're going to have to ask me directly and I'm no longer willing even though I'm really good at it,

29:59

that those skills are very honed for me of just kind of intuiting what people need all of the time that I am the boundary I set with myself is that I'm not.

30:12

Intentionally receiving that information you know and if I do notice I just kind of tuck it away and remind myself that until that person asked me directly I don't have to use my kind of Spidey.

30:22

Skills on them. But then the boundary with other people and saying like you're going to have to ask that doesn't mean I'm going to say yes but that's the first step the first step is you walking yourself in the front door.

30:35

And saying. What you need which for me everybody in my life was used to me just doing the things that they that they wanted and needed so this was a really big.

30:47

Shift there was a really you know a significant relationship negotiation.

30:51

And those boundaries which are like we're going to do things differently than we've been doing them before and it's going to be.

30:58

Better but it might be rough for a little I mean I when my husband and I got together you know four years ago for five years ago now one of the things we talked about initially was like,

31:11

say what I mean and I mean what I say so when you say to me are you mad I will think about it for a moment and if I say no you can trust that I am not mad,

31:21

if you are upset with me and you demonstrate that by making a face or kind of huffing around the house like.

31:30

I don't have a we don't have a problem we don't have a problem until you tell me that you are upset.

31:38

Because I am not a mind reader and I am not going to attempt to infer and that's worked incredibly well for us so I think that communication is again.

31:47

Incredibly kind I also want to point out to this original questioner that this is not like a

31:54

all-or-nothing game so when I when someone asks me to do a speaking engagement I will say here is my rate for your speaking engagement and if they come back and they say oh sorry that's not we can't afford that

32:08

I will come back and say okay what is your budget.

32:11

Maybe we can find a way to work together in a way that works for your budget I will adjust the scope of what I'm delivering to meet your budget you can do that with boundaries too

32:21

somebody says to you I need you to do this,

32:25

you say okay give me a minute to think about that please or let me let you know tomorrow you come back to them and say okay.

32:32

I like giving my energetic capacity given my work schedule whatever the reason is I can't do that for you but.

32:41

I could do this this or this would any of those be helpful.

32:45

Now if you have no capacity to assist in this moment absolutely please say that only offer things that you are able to offer genuinely and without resentment,

32:55

but it's not an All or Nothing. If my sister is like I'm desperately in need for like a vent session right now I'm drowning I will say to her.

33:05

I can't right now I have this podcast interview in five minutes I really need to stay prepped for it as soon as I get off this call I am yours will that work for you or I can't do this right now I am.

33:17

Having a really hard day navigating my own depression can I send you a couple funny memes and check in with you in the morning and I will offer what I can offer and she will tell me if that is enough or,

33:29

she will say nope that's not enough for me right now and she'll know that she needs to find someone else to satisfy that need for her and that is an incredibly way kind way to communicate.

33:39

I love that I think that's so so useful and.

33:43

So much of what you offer is this like before I knew her I mean I'm so glad that you wrote a book on boundaries but before I knew you're going to write a book on boundaries even just.

33:53

What you would share on Instagram I would always share because it was so tangibly applicable you really have a skill for them.

34:02

I really appreciate that I thank you so much that means a lot

34:07

so the next question that I have at the time of recording this you wrote

34:13

an email recently this week which was fantastic and this listener was referencing that email so it's about being in conflict with other people and you wrote in that email that you don't have to be in conflict with people who are in conflict with you which

34:27

blew all of our minds pretty much I think and she said I know she wrote about this in the email but conflict really scares me

34:35

so even if I don't have to be in conflict with someone else how do I hold that boundary not to engage while also taking care of the fear feelings that I have about someone being mad at me.

34:46

It's a really. Really good question a very insightful question and and I did I wrote this entire email about the fact that like just because someone is mad at you or upset with you does not mean you need to accept their invitation into the conflict and I explained exactly how,

35:03

you know a kind way to do that unkind ways to do that.

35:07

This really reminds me of the relationship that I have with my husband he is

35:13

an anxious attachment style he really does get nervous and gets anxious at any sign of conflict and so when originally when we would have an argument or disagreement on something.

35:27

Almost immediately his reaction would be like okay well then I guess this isn't going to work out and I'm like what wait a minute wait a minute like we're just you know we're having this discussion about this thing what I realized was that he and I needed to have conversations about

35:42

trusting each other and having faith in the relationship when we weren't in Conflict so you know we came together and I said like look,

35:50

we're gonna argue or not always going to see things eye-to-eye

35:54

remember that we solve things as a team neither of us are trying to win like we're on the same team and know that no matter how heated the argument gets or if I get mad or if we need to take,

36:07

hours away from each other so we don't say something dumb that is not a statement to the strength of our relationship I am asking you.

36:16

To trust that our relationship is so strong.

36:21

That we can argue find a solution together and it doesn't impact the stability of our relationship and that was a really important,

36:29

place to get to and it didn't happen of course right away you can just say that and have someone go okay that makes sense you had to die had to demonstrate it.

36:38

So that meant that when we were in Conflict recognizing that he had an anxious attachment Style.

36:45

I would over-communicate babe I need five minutes right now and I promise I'm not abandoning you or this conversation but I'm pretty heated right now and I tend to say things in the Heat of the Moment that I know I won't be happy with.

36:59

If I can take 5 minutes by myself I could come back and I guarantee you we'll talk about this like in a much healthier way so that was one of the ways that I expressed what was happening for me in conversations and conflict so that,

37:13

he didn't get nervous I don't know if this person's partner is that self-aware or willing to engage but

37:19

you can absolutely self-soothe in the face of conflict.

37:25

So you can recognize and acknowledge and I don't want you to ignore the fact that you're really uncomfortable and that conflict is scary in fact you could even say that out loud.

37:35

I recognize that were in Conflict right now and I got to tell you it is really freaking me out I am not necessarily comfortable with conflict but I'm committed to resolving this with you as a team.

37:48

Feel free to say that you know you never know your partner may come back with a reassurance and that moment that's going to make you feel better,

37:54

but then you can also whether you're in the conflict or in moments outside of it.

38:00

You don't work through again with your therapist like what am I feeling when I'm in Conflict what memories are this bringing up have I been,

38:07

abandoned before have I been gas-lit before not to trust myself in my own feelings like what about this conflict makes me so uncomfortable and how can I tend to myself and self-soothe in this moment so that I can show up and resolve this conflict in a,

38:22

in a way that truly serves the partnership.

38:25

While also acknowledging that like this is a scary and delicate place for those I'm not a therapist you would be way better suited I think to talk to someone through that kind of a conversation but what I'm really sensing In This Moment is,

38:40

conflict is uncomfortable absolutely it would not do you any good to try to ignore or not acknowledge that fact but I think you don't need to nor should you.

38:50

Try to rely on your partner for reassurance and that moment I would look for ways to try to bring that reassurance to yourself that even in Conflict you are safe,

39:00

you are protected you can trust yourself and you will resolve this in a way that is healthy for you.

39:08

Yes as I have an anxious attachment Style,

39:13

myself and conflict is terrifying for me and I've had to learn a lot of those self-soothing things but I think.

39:21

Something that really spoke to me in that.

39:24

Is that idea of having conversations with the people you're in relationship with outside of conflict about how you want to be in Conflict together.

39:34

Hmm yes,

39:37

we established my husband and I established Rules of Engagement or early on in our relationship things that we were and we're not going to do when we were in Conflict things like we will never use.

39:49

Mean words we will now I know what my husband's,

39:54

worst nightmare buttons are I know the words that would absolutely decimate him because of his past trauma and history,

40:03

we have agreed never to use those words we've agreed to take time off anytime we need it for any reason because we assume that it is for the good of the relationship and the discussion

40:14

coming up with those kind of you know maybe some couples have the don't go to bed mad we don't have that we've gone to bed mad and like that's okay for us

40:23

but I think coming up with this idea of Rules of Engagement early on can be very helpful and also reassuring.

40:28

I love that idea my partner my partner does not.

40:34

Care about going to bed angry yeah and I formerly had that role of you know just like kind of duking it out until late in the night.

40:44

And I always had Partners before who are perfectly happy to Duke it out with me link until the sun came up literally yeah and yeah.

40:52

It is amazing when you are in the you know outside of conflict moments to have that also that nuanced understanding of.

41:02

You know my way doesn't actually really serve me it comes naturally to me absolutely to like fight it out until we're like.

41:10

Able to say that you know whatever it is the fights over.

41:16

Again speaking to that first example you gave us like we have so much more insight in the morning after we have slept through the night then we will,

41:24

yes anyway I mean I have a personal boundary with myself that I very much try to maintain even though it's challenging because I get.

41:34

00 at night,

41:37

00 because I'm ya hired.

41:49

Yeah actually do any of it justice.

41:52

So smart your willpower is Zapped you are mentally exhausted its when I want to bring in the swirling tornado of all of the bad things that ever happened ever and.

42:02

Yeah you just shouldn't do it yes it's like asking yourself am I tired am I hungry yes you know how am I supposed to and honestly even with myself,

42:13

sometimes I'll want to kind of go into a topic in my own mind.

42:18

That I am not resource enough to adequately Explorer yes and you just that is so smart yeah can't do it.

42:28

Yes absolutely I mean I think I you know all the time I tell people who are asking me questions if this works if your best friend was talking to you about this what would you tell them.

42:38

You would never say to your best friend yes I think 9 p.m. is a great time to dive back into that like,

42:44

dumb thing you said earlier today on that work calling wondering how it's going to affect your performance or the fight that you're in the middle of with your but you would never tell your best friend that so

42:54

I like to use that best friend rule a lot when I'm talking about like okay am I talking to myself the way I would talk to someone else and if not why am I not giving myself that same Grace,

43:04

yeah. Well in acknowledging to that so many of us have been conditioned to be vigilant and responsive Around the Clock.

43:15

And such a gift that we can give to ourselves is like hey.

43:18

I try to turn my phone off between 8 p.m. and 8 a.m. like I need 12 hours out of the day where other people aren't in my mind and I'm not you know.

43:28

Going to be have a news story kind of like sneak up on me when.

43:34

It's going to completely wreck my piece completely wrecked my sleep and having those,

43:40

kinds of I don't even think about it as a boundary I think about it more like a guideline because probably half the time I don't follow it but it's like best practices for being in my body yeah.

43:51

That's such a good way to put it I like that so much yes so I'm curious if there are any boundaries that you've set in your own life recently that.

44:04

That required some adjustment because I think there's a lot of perfectionism that goes into this idea of like I have to come up with just the perfect thing to say just the perfect boundary that will be foolproof.

44:17

And instead so often it's that oh I said that and I tested it and then I realized you know I needed more of a margin for example.

44:27

Or to do it a different way is there anything that you've been working with that's required some.

44:32

Oh yeah you know you've hit on such an important point and another potential misconception about boundaries is that boundaries are rigid,

44:40

once you set a boundary that is the boundary that you live with from now until the end of time and you don't ever revisit it and you don't ever relax it.

44:48

And I think nothing is further from the truth things change you change your goals change your sense of safety changes your relationship changes so

44:58

I'll give you an example I had to set a boundary with my parents

45:02

while back because they overstepped in a major way around my co-parenting relationship with my son's dad.

45:10

They inserted themselves in they shared some opinions about how we should be co-parenting in a way that was like a super overstep and left me really mad.

45:19

So I set a boundary with them. We will not be discussing this do not ask me any more how it's going do not don't even bring his name up my co-parenting is now not a subject of discussion that I will be entertaining now.

45:32

I can keep them from talking about my co-parenting relationship amongst themselves but I would not be a party to that discussion that was received loud and clear boundary respected from day one.

45:43

We are all now in a different place three years later my son is in a very different place he's far more secure he's less anxious about going back and forth between households

45:56

we've established a much better routine around that my relationship with my co-parent continues to improve in terms of,

46:03

we still communicate really well we still help each other out my parents have understood.

46:09

Why Crossing that line was so problematic and I have sensed relaxed that boundary so now they will say things like you know how are things going there and I will answer them in more detail than I have in the past because.

46:25

Their understanding has changed my context has changed and the situation has changed so I think it's really important to constantly re-evaluate.

46:37

This is the boundary I set is this the boundary I still need is this the boundary that is still best serving the relationship is it best serving me and the relationship I have and in this case relaxing it felt like.

46:51

A deeper connection with my parents a

46:55

better sense of pride in that I was able to share better news now than I was a couple of years ago and they inserted themselves

47:03

and just an easier relationship with my son now that he's older and it makes sense for him to want to share about his life at his dad's it was the right thing to do and I think.

47:13

If I had been super rigid about it it that boundary would have perhaps turned to a place of being less healthy than it is now since I've relaxed it.

47:23

Well thank you so much for sharing that I think it's such a beautiful example and.

47:30

It's true so many of us believe like not only have to set the perfect boundary about once I've said it that's it like set it and forget it and.

47:38

The reminder that we're always in conversation with ourselves always in conversation with our boundaries making sure that things still work or fit is.

47:49

Just so beautifully put and I think president for me certainly so thank you yeah happy to share.

47:56

All right Melissa well I could ask you boundary questions all day long yeah that's I know that we can keep you forever I know that at the time of airing this your book will have just just just come out.

48:10

Any last words you want to tell us about.

48:14

Why we should pick it up immediately yeah I really appreciate that I think one of the things,

48:21

that always frustrated me in all of my research on boundaries the books I read the research articles the scientific papers from Educators and researchers and therapists and scientists is that I would.

48:35

I would hear about a boundary scenario I would think oh I have that situation I read all about it and why the boundary would be so helpful and all the areas that it was going to you know bring me freedom,

48:45

and then it wouldn't tell me how to say it,

48:48

I really think people struggle they are on board like yes I want to set a boundary with this in law or this co-worker or my romantic partner here but how do I say it in a way that still feels,

49:02

kind and how do I say it like without directly reverting to the nuclear option and so,

49:08

you know one of the things I really wanted to do in the book was tell you exactly how to say it which is why I have more than 130.

49:16

In categories that I've labeled green yellow or red green for the most gentle boundary language and read if you really after time and,

49:25

continue reinforcement need to like really hold that boundary firmly and I hope that those scripts are going to be what people

49:34

feel comfortable literally copying and pasting in their real life I want you to know not just the benefits of boundaries and what it will bring to your life and all of the freedoms that it will bring but I want you to know how to do it so that you can start,

49:48

practicing in a way that feels really authentic and really organic to your relationships so hopefully people find the scripts as helpful as my Instagram readers have in the past yes you know.

50:02

It strikes me now that this is why I love your work so much exactly is that so many of us don't have,

50:11

well cultivated realm of possibility for what a healthy boundary even looks like because we haven't had role models for it.

50:21

And we learn by relating we learn by experiencing and so if you haven't ever experienced somebody who is particularly Adept at setting and holding boundaries in a clear and kind way.

50:34

Then yeah you don't know how to do that I mean that's that's exactly how we learn.

50:39

It's true that your work really offers that modeling in such a beautiful way thank you so much I really appreciate that.

50:47

Well thank you I will put of course all of the ways to find you in the show notes and we're all going to be reading your book

50:56

can Lovin up all those scred I can't wait I love hearing stories from people who have are setting boundaries holding boundaries boundaries success stories is they're my favorite so send them all my way

51:08

well do this.

51:11

Music.

51:27

Listening to the Nene podcast with Mara glatzel.

51:30

If you want my support and learning how to nourish your needs dance on over to the needy podcast.com to take my quiz to figure out what you need right now and how to meet those needs with a greater sense of ease and confidence.

51:42

If you love Today's Show please leave us a review on iTunes and consider joining the needy Inner Circle where your monthly contribution enables us to continue bringing you the delicious conversations you adore without advertisement or interruption.

51:56

To become a member of the needy Inner Circle and gain access to the inspiring behind-the-scenes treats we've whipped up for you skip to the knee podcast.com.

52:05

And as always permission loves company so if there's a human in your life that you think would benefit from this conversation I will be so grateful if you would share it.

52:14

Music.