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FDIC. What's

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up, rich friends?

1:21

Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth

1:24

and Chill with me, your host, Vivian Tu,

1:26

AKA your rich BFF and your favorite Wall

1:28

Street girly. And before we start today's podcast,

1:30

I wanna tell you about one of the

1:32

best meals I've had recently. I was in

1:35

LA, I went to a delicious Thai restaurant

1:37

with a friend and we ordered a Thai

1:39

style tuna tartare. There were fresh tuna chunks,

1:41

finely chopped cucumbers, crunchy fried onion

1:43

bits and chilies that added a delicious little

1:46

kick in a tart lime juice. And to

1:48

make it even better, it was served with

1:50

the crispiest fried wonton bits and

1:52

the entire dish was just perfection. But

1:55

it got me thinking, how did a

1:57

little tuna swimming in the ocean become

1:59

this? dish in front of me. And

2:02

it also terrified me a little because

2:04

the only fishing and seafood knowledge I

2:06

had came from sea spheracy and the

2:08

deadliest catch. I like to consider myself

2:11

pretty knowledgeable and eager to learn, so

2:13

today I've invited a fish expert to

2:15

come explain to us the finances and

2:17

process behind the seafood industry, how much

2:20

does it cost to catch a fish,

2:22

why are some fish more expensive than

2:24

others, and what makes some fish so

2:26

much tastier? No no no no. So

2:29

let me introduce the CEO of

2:31

my favorite tin fish company, Fish Wipe.

2:33

Everyone please give a warm welcome to

2:35

Mestaka Milstein. Thank you so much Vivian. I

2:37

am truly so honored to be here

2:39

today as a very big fan of yours. Of

2:42

course, thank you so much for coming

2:44

on the pod, thank you for being

2:46

here. And before we get into everything,

2:48

I remember growing up and bringing sushi

2:51

or an Asian fish dish

2:53

to school and getting made fun

2:55

of. But nowadays it feels like

2:57

everybody's favorite food is seafood. When

2:59

did that happen? When did every

3:01

single little grocery store that you

3:03

go into now have a sushi

3:05

department? It's a great question.

3:07

So I mean it might feel like

3:10

that, but historically Americans have eaten

3:12

far less seafood than we're supposed to

3:14

according to the FDA guidelines. So historically

3:16

it's been about 80 to 90 percent

3:19

of Americans are not meeting their weekly

3:21

FDA recommended serving of seafood, which is

3:23

two servings. So I would

3:25

say that's still very much a prevalent issue

3:28

in this country is that people actually aren't eating enough

3:31

seafood. But that being said, the reason that you might

3:33

have seen this switch over the past few years is

3:35

that there was a huge resurgence of

3:37

interest and purchasing power in

3:40

seafood basically concurrent with

3:42

the COVID-19 crisis. So as people

3:44

were stuck at home,

3:46

had more time potentially, for many

3:48

people had more disposable income and

3:51

more interest in learning how to cook seafood, there

3:53

was massive growth in the

3:55

seafood industry in the U.S. The tin seafood

3:58

industry specifically, which is what Obviously

4:00

I work in a lone experience 10% growth from

4:02

2021 to 2022. So

4:05

there has been a lot of just increased

4:07

purchasing behavior, cooking, whether it's, you know, eating

4:09

out of restaurants over the past few years.

4:12

So you're, you're not wrong in thinking

4:14

that. Yeah. And pivoting to you for a

4:16

second, what made you want to start a

4:18

tinned fish company? You know, I think it's

4:20

so funny. There are so many different types

4:22

of entrepreneurs these days, but if I were

4:24

to see you on the street, I would

4:26

have been like, Oh, I think she's a

4:28

fishermen. Or like, she's a fisher woman. Like

4:30

I wouldn't think that. So it's just so

4:32

funny. What made you decide to start Fishwife?

4:34

Yeah. I mean, I think I was a

4:36

totally average American consumer of, I

4:38

would say seafood and canned seafood specifically. You

4:40

know, I grew up eating canned tuna

4:42

and same, you know, tuna sandwiches, et

4:44

cetera, very, very normal consumer. But I

4:47

think first of all, I had, I

4:49

lived abroad in Spain and college. Um,

4:51

and there I had my first exposure

4:53

to conservative culture, which I think is

4:55

a very common American, like tourist experiences

4:57

to travel to, whether it's Portugal or

4:59

Spain, I get a lot of texts

5:01

from people visiting Portugal these days. And

5:03

you witness that there's this really gorgeous

5:05

artisanal culture around seafood can serve us. And

5:07

you come back to the American grocery

5:09

store and you look at the can't

5:12

see food aisle and it looks like

5:14

maybe like medicine or like cleaning supplies.

5:16

Like it's all just like blue and

5:18

white. There is no one

5:20

or none of the brands are really

5:22

messaging like a culinary experience with their

5:24

products. Maybe they're messaging, you know, a

5:27

sustainability value proposition, but they're really not talking

5:29

about like, this is so tasty. You should

5:31

be putting on our rice bowls and pasta

5:33

or on toast, et cetera. So I think,

5:35

you know, during COVID I was eating a bunch of

5:37

tin seafood with my friend Caroline, we were living together

5:39

and just like eating so much tin seafood because it

5:41

aligned so much with the way that people were grocery

5:44

shopping at that time. So, you know,

5:46

trying to limit grocery store trips to maybe one every

5:48

week, once every two weeks. I think a lot of

5:50

people found themselves in the position I was, which is,

5:52

you know, how can I buy a product that is

5:54

shelf stable but also has a really

5:57

high nutritional content and can supplement, you know, can

5:59

be that. protein supplement in my

6:01

meals. And there's really like nothing

6:04

but canned fish, also

6:06

canned chicken, but like, let's be honest, the

6:08

canned chicken market is lagging. And

6:12

maybe canned beans, but like not a lot of

6:14

food CPG and for your consumers that are your

6:16

listeners that don't know what CPG means, it's consumer

6:18

packaged goods, it's the industry that I work in.

6:21

Just not a lot of products answering that question.

6:23

So, and then beside that, there

6:25

was just so much excitement from

6:27

the culinary world about tin seafood.

6:29

So coming from people like Anthony

6:31

Bourdain and David Chang and Alison Roman,

6:34

these people have just been espousing the

6:36

benefits of tin seafood for, you know,

6:38

five, 10 years running. And I think-

6:40

Oh, geez. Yeah, exactly. And like,

6:42

I think a lot of people took the

6:44

opportunity of COVID to start creating these tin

6:47

fish experiences in their own homes. And I had seen

6:49

that in my own peer group, like people posting about

6:51

like tin fish hour. And I was like, what

6:54

is going on here? And then it was just

6:56

really a light bulb moment of, you know,

6:58

this is a huge category. It's almost a $6

7:00

billion category that has not had any innovation

7:03

happen in it really ever in the

7:05

US. And you just don't,

7:07

I mean, you know, because you look at

7:09

so many different sectors, like you rarely see

7:12

an industry of that size that has not

7:14

been disrupted or, you know, just reinvigorated. Yeah.

7:17

So that's why. Okay,

7:20

before we get into our next segment, I have a joke

7:22

for you. What do you call a person who speaks three

7:24

languages? Tri-lingual. What about someone who

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B E l.com/rich BFF

9:03

rules and restrictions may apply. Kind

9:06

of like what you mentioned, I always feel like in

9:08

my head canned fish when you walk down that grocery

9:10

store aisle, it's just like kind of mid

9:12

like you never think of something. You're like,

9:15

Oh, I could really, I really want to

9:17

wow someone with, you know, or germs or

9:19

an appetizer. I'm going to get canned fish.

9:21

It was always like, Oh, I'll get these

9:23

pre-souveted duck con sea legs that you can

9:25

get from the gourmet department and just heat

9:27

them up. And like people will love this,

9:30

whatever. And I immediately just think

9:32

of cantuna and how it doesn't have that much

9:34

flavor, you know, especially if you're getting it in

9:37

water versus in, you know, a Spanish olive

9:39

oil. But you know, I've tried your products.

9:41

I love them. You know, I'm a huge,

9:43

huge fan. Like what, how did

9:45

you decide to differentiate in this industry

9:48

to your point of like disruption when

9:50

it's been a decades long, centuries long

9:52

industry that hasn't changed that much? Yeah,

9:54

it's a really good question. So we,

9:56

I mean, we tried to differentiate in a number of ways.

9:58

I would say the first, the most obvious is

10:01

our brand positioning. So you know, we were very

10:03

much inspired by the real artistry

10:05

around conservation culture in Europe and many other

10:07

parts of the world. But I think the

10:09

one that I was familiar with is with

10:11

Europe. And that was really kind of like

10:13

the seed of the company was, okay, we

10:15

we this is an amazing product. It's like,

10:17

so healthy, it's shelf stable, like it deserves

10:19

basically a rebrand. So like it kind of

10:21

started with I, I didn't

10:23

think I was going to do as

10:25

much innovating on the the flavor profiles

10:27

and the supply chain and the

10:29

species as we ultimately ended up doing at first

10:31

was like, okay, we need to just

10:34

put tinned fish in a different light. So

10:36

you know, we created this really fun brand.

10:38

It's really inviting. It's really, really different from

10:40

everything that's on American grocery store shelves. So

10:42

you know, it has sort of a mascot

10:44

in the fish wave. And it's

10:46

really playful and vibrant. So that was kind

10:48

of the first thing. And then I started

10:50

getting into the flavor profile. So it was

10:52

like, okay, yeah, what is out there on

10:54

on the US grocery store shelves is like

10:56

basically like no flavoring at all, or no,

10:59

no innovative approaches to like the what is

11:01

actually going on in the can. So I

11:04

started looking at products starting to work with

11:06

canteries in both the US and outside

11:08

of the US. So we started working with a cannery

11:10

in Spain, and started developing

11:13

a preserved lemon flavor, which we thought

11:15

was, you know, it's not so out

11:18

there that people are going to be like nervous about

11:20

using it all the time. Like you don't really want

11:22

to create a product that people only don't want to

11:24

eat like once a month, like you kind of want

11:26

to create something that people are gonna you know, the

11:28

flavor palette is not so overwhelming that you're not gonna

11:30

want to eat it multiple times a week. So

11:33

that's kind of like been our guiding principle on

11:35

the flavor development is like, we want to

11:37

create products that are really differentiated, mostly

11:39

through just the quality of the product

11:41

itself, not going too crazy with the

11:44

with like flavor additions, etc. Like the

11:46

fly by jing smoke salmon, which you

11:48

referenced. That's kind of the furthest out

11:50

that we've gone on like really innovating

11:52

on flavor. I think we really wanted

11:54

to start by just creating products that

11:56

were really, really delicious and really welcoming.

11:59

So like The Corallina products that we

12:01

launched in 2021 was all smoked fish,

12:03

which I think the American palette really, really

12:05

loves. It was like smoky, salty, and sweet.

12:07

And that's kind of what we went for.

12:09

So we did smoked apple, courtuna, smoked rheumatron,

12:12

smoked salmon. And those products are really great

12:14

because they are, I mean, you've tried them.

12:17

The quality is so, so high. Everything is

12:19

obviously like hand cut, hand packed. It's just

12:21

stunning. But the flavors themselves

12:23

are not so pronounced that

12:26

you don't want to eat them like every other day.

12:28

And you can make them into other

12:30

things. I'm seeing a lot of people

12:33

using your products to make dips or

12:35

little appetizers. And that's nice that there's

12:37

some versatility as well. Yeah, so

12:39

that's continuing to sort of guide

12:41

our project innovation pipeline. Awesome. We

12:46

mentioned it a little bit earlier, but fishwife. Where

12:48

did you get the name? Tell us, what

12:50

is a fishwife? I love this story. Yes,

12:52

of course. So I was very lucky to

12:54

get the name actually the day after Caroline

12:56

and I came up with the idea to

12:58

start the business. So I was calling every

13:00

entrepreneur I knew. I think that's a

13:02

really great way to start working on a business. And it

13:05

definitely worked out well for us. And I continue to call

13:07

like 10 entrepreneur friends every week

13:09

for advice, et cetera. But so I called

13:11

my friend Greer who runs a textile company

13:14

with her sisters. And I think she was

13:16

just Googling fishing terminology and came across this

13:18

term fishwife, which is this really, it's an

13:20

old term. It dates back to the 16th

13:23

century. And it used to

13:25

be a neutral term that were referred to

13:27

the wives of fishermen that would sell their

13:29

husbands fish at the market while their husbands

13:31

were out at sea. And because of the

13:33

extreme perishability of fresh fish, they gained

13:36

a reputation for being really like a

13:38

loud and bossy and just like swearing

13:40

at people like, I'm a goddamn

13:43

fish. So then over time it

13:45

evolved into like this gendered slur for

13:47

women that were really like loud and

13:49

bossy and swore a lot. And

13:52

that just really. So it really just

13:54

like resonated so much. And it's also. continue

14:00

to be awesome because I can like

14:02

swear all the time like I have

14:04

permission to just swear in a professional

14:06

context because It's the namesake

14:08

of my brand. So I'm very happy with that choice

14:11

Love it. Love it so much and

14:14

you know going back in time a little

14:16

bit Is this something that you

14:18

know, your family has been in the food

14:20

business like what's your background? How would you

14:23

describe your upbringing? Did you have experience in

14:25

this space prior to starting fish

14:27

life? Yeah, so I did not I

14:31

Mean I'm from New Hampshire. Both my parents are

14:33

medical in the medical field and I worked

14:36

in the music industry my whole career So

14:38

I graduated from college in 2016 and then

14:40

worked in brand partnerships and artists marketing for

14:42

four years And so no nothing to do

14:45

with seafood at all Which I

14:47

mean when I was starting the company I was calling, you know

14:49

founder friends I was like is this

14:51

insane like can a person that has

14:53

no background in an industry? You know

14:56

start innovating that industry and the answer

14:58

is always yes because like so many

15:00

of the disruptors Obviously come from

15:02

this outside, you know come with an

15:05

outside perspective But I think the impetus is hugely

15:07

on you to make sure you

15:09

are equipping yourself with extremely strong

15:11

resources And and people that have been

15:14

involved the industry for 10 20 30 years. So, um, no I

15:18

think I think my background in branding

15:20

and brand partnerships and like audience building

15:23

Obviously has is actually super I

15:25

mean I say this all the time like my Professional

15:28

experience is very very translatable to this job and

15:30

people are always like how is that true? But

15:33

I would you know my old job was like Creating

15:35

brand identities for artists and their albums and

15:37

they're like launching those artists releasing those albums

15:39

and we go through a very very similar

15:42

Process of fish wife when we're coming up

15:44

with you know The concept for a tin

15:46

fish product and branding it and creating a

15:48

story around it So it's applicable, but I

15:50

definitely not not my background And

15:54

I ask, you know all the entrepreneurs all the

15:56

creators that come on the show this question because

15:58

I think it's really important to acknowledge,

16:00

like, if we come from privilege, would

16:03

you say growing up, your family was

16:05

lower income, middle income, you know, higher

16:08

income? Did that have any bearing on

16:10

your decision and your ability to, you

16:12

know, quit your day job

16:14

and start a company? I'm so glad you

16:16

asked that question because I kind of try to bring

16:19

it up in interviews a lot just because I think

16:21

it's so important. Like, you do find in the

16:23

founder community, like, a lot of people

16:25

have come from really, really immense privilege.

16:27

I definitely, you know, came from, both

16:29

my parents were doctors. I got put

16:32

through college. Definitely came from so much

16:34

privilege, especially on the educational front. And

16:36

I think that really matters because the

16:38

educational piece, like, I mean,

16:40

I can talk about fundraising, but like, when

16:42

I went to figure out how to fundraise,

16:44

like, I had this amazing community. I went

16:46

to Brown, which is like an amazing college

16:48

full-on type nurse. And those were the people

16:50

that, like, taught me how a person can

16:52

raise funds. So I would say I definitely came

16:54

from a lot of privilege that allowed me to do

16:56

this. Yeah, I worked in the music industry, so I

16:59

did not have a lot of savings. Like, that was

17:01

not my situation. Like, basically, I think this is an

17:03

important thing to talk about too, is, you know, when

17:05

deciding how to start the business, whether to raise money,

17:07

etc., I was like, how am I

17:10

going to buy all this fish? I don't have

17:12

a lot of money in the bank. I put

17:14

probably, like, I put half my life savings into

17:16

getting the company off the ground, but then it

17:18

was like, I need to do this full time.

17:20

Like, we basically, when we got national press coverage

17:22

and sort of like national interest vis-a-vis DSC very

17:24

early on, and basically immediately it felt super

17:27

irresponsible for me to be, I was working

17:29

another job, I was working another startup for,

17:32

I don't know, eight months, the first eight months of working

17:34

on the business, and it felt just like insanely

17:36

irresponsible to be running a seafood business while doing another

17:38

job. And I was like, I need to go full

17:41

time. I raised a small-ish

17:43

round of capital, as they call it, friends

17:45

and family, but mostly from angel investors. And

17:47

I paid myself, you know, I paid myself,

17:49

but I paid myself a hit 10 for

17:52

the first two years of the business. But

17:55

like, I was able to pay myself a pittance

17:57

and be okay because I didn't have student loans.

18:00

And yeah, I think it's

18:02

like insane privilege to be able to start your own business.

18:05

And like, why bootstrapping, I think there

18:07

are maybe you've talked about this before,

18:09

but like, there are certain myths about

18:11

bootstrapping, etc. And like, it's just tricky

18:13

because bootstrapping is not a reality, even

18:15

for someone from like a tremendous privilege

18:17

like myself, unless I wanted to grow

18:20

the business very, very, very slowly, I'll

18:22

just say very slowly once, and

18:24

gradually. But even then, it's like

18:27

running a business while doing another job. At least

18:29

I experienced a lot of guilt about that, because

18:31

I was like, I have real customers out there,

18:33

I need to be 24 seven focused

18:36

on this business, making sure that you

18:38

know, the qa qc procedures are happening

18:40

that we're sourcing responsibly, etc. So I

18:42

think bootstrapping is amazing,

18:44

when you can do it. But I

18:46

think it's pretty hard for for most of us

18:48

to figure that out if you don't have like

18:50

family and supporting you, etc. I was

18:53

gonna say I think that's a really thoughtful answer.

18:55

Personally when I started your rich BFF, I

18:58

actually worked a full time job for

19:00

a year and three months before I

19:03

quit. And frankly, a big reason why

19:05

I quit was because management and agents

19:07

wouldn't find me unless I was doing

19:09

it full time. And to your point,

19:12

I mean, I was one

19:14

so burnt out, but two, it

19:16

just felt like I wasn't able

19:18

to give 100% because I was

19:20

so tired. Totally. It

19:22

definitely it definitely takes a toll on a

19:24

founder to feel like you can't be there.

19:27

And this is your baby, right? Like you

19:29

built this, this is something that you are

19:31

so invested in and not having that time

19:34

is I'm sure very challenging. But that

19:36

has ended up well for the

19:38

better for you. I do want to

19:40

ask that I think people are going to be curious.

19:44

You said you put half of your life savings

19:46

into this company. Are you comfortable sharing that

19:48

number? I think so. Yeah. I

19:50

received up like a little less than $30,000. So

19:54

not a lot, but like something. So

19:57

I think I put about somewhere between

19:59

15. and 18 grand to buy I

20:01

mean to buy the inventory um etc

20:03

to get off the ground yeah. But

20:07

before we talk more things fish I do

20:09

want to talk a little bit about myself.

20:11

As you guys know with the amount that

20:13

I'm working and prepping for my book launch

20:15

and going on tour it's really easy to

20:17

feel sluggish and a little bit stressed. That's

20:20

no surprise but if you've been a long-time

20:22

listener you know that I've been drinking AG1

20:24

over the past year and when I started

20:26

drinking AG1 daily I could feel a real

20:28

difference in my daily health. I had so

20:30

much more energy, I was more relaxed, and

20:32

I could focus. That's because AG1 is a

20:35

foundational nutrition supplement that supports your body's universal

20:37

needs like gut optimization, stress management,

20:39

and immune support. Since 2010 AG1

20:42

has led the future of foundational nutrition and

20:44

continuously refined their formula to create a smarter

20:46

better way to elevate your baseline health. In

20:48

fact because I wouldn't stop talking about it

20:51

even my friends and family have started drinking

20:53

AG1 and they always tell me how much

20:55

more energetic they feel, that their gut health

20:57

feels supported, their stress levels feel more manageable,

21:00

and that they're just getting the nutrients that

21:02

their body craves. AG1 is the supplement I

21:04

trust to provide the support my body needs

21:07

daily and that's why they've been a partner for so

21:09

long. If you want to take ownership of your health it

21:11

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richbff that's drinkag1.com/richbff. Check

21:25

it out. You

21:28

said 30,000. It was 15 to 18 to inventory.

21:31

What did you spend the other 15 or

21:33

10 grand on? Was that just like infrastructure

21:36

cost or tech or? Yeah branding.

21:38

I mean we paid we hired

21:40

our illustrator Danny really early on so

21:42

paying him for that. We did a

21:44

um I think this is like three

21:46

grand. We did a um like an

21:48

MVP so minimum viable product. For those

21:50

that don't know it's like startups often

21:52

really want to get a minimum viable product out to

21:54

market to test the market see if people are actually

21:56

interested in the business um before investing a shit ton

21:59

of money into it. to it. So we created

22:01

a minimum viable product that was a branded

22:03

box with samples that

22:05

we had been testing with canneries put into

22:08

our branding. And I

22:10

love to bring this up to people because

22:12

I think it really is important to have

22:14

a minimum viable product. And it's also really

22:16

hard to figure out how to do that.

22:18

Because like, for example, the canneries we were

22:20

talking to have MOQs, minimum

22:22

order quantities of, you know, 25,000 units at minimum. So

22:26

you do you want to get a minimum viable product

22:28

out there before you buy 25,000 units for you

22:32

know, $3 each. It's like that is a that's

22:34

a lot of money. That's a lot of money

22:36

that I didn't have. So so yeah, so

22:38

a lot I think like three to $5,000

22:40

went to creating these branded boxes and you

22:42

know, shipping them out to the customers we

22:44

were testing with. And then legal fees.

22:46

I mean, I think that's also something about

22:48

a lot, especially when it comes to like bootstrapping,

22:51

etc. is like, you got to do it right.

22:53

You got to do it right. There's so much,

22:55

there's so much bending the rules of you

22:57

know, legal, like when you actually need your

22:59

lawyer to write a contract when you can

23:01

get one from another founder, etc. But if

23:03

you're actually really going by the book, it's

23:05

super expensive, like one co manufacturing agreement. So

23:07

these are the agreements that you, you know,

23:09

hire your lawyer to put together to make

23:12

sure you're protected in the relationship with you

23:14

and your co packer co packer is like

23:16

the person that produces your product. So a

23:18

cannery for us. But like that can run

23:20

you between if you do

23:22

it the cheapest way, like $5,000. But if you like that's

23:26

like with your team kind of doing a lot of

23:28

the work, but like it can run you up

23:30

to 10 grand to do like a legal

23:33

contract. So it's something to think about people

23:35

don't people don't think about how much legal

23:37

fees cost. So and then like getting a

23:39

fundraiser up and running, which we did, you

23:42

know, right after launch, maybe the like six

23:44

months into working on the company, you

23:46

know, you need to hire a lawyer to

23:48

oversee a fundraising process and manage that. So,

23:50

so fun. So many fun little things. Yeah.

23:53

And let's move our business brains

23:57

over to the actual fishing.

24:00

side of the house. Can you just

24:02

walk me through fishing industry basics? Like

24:04

how much money is the industry worth

24:06

annually? Like how does it work? Yeah,

24:09

so it is a crazy,

24:11

crazy industry. Fish is efficiencies

24:13

that are actually the most

24:15

globally traded food commodity in

24:17

the world. And it is just a commodity

24:19

that moves around the globe. But 90% of

24:22

the seafood that we consume in the US

24:24

is actually from outside of the US. Often

24:26

fish that is caught or raised in the

24:29

US will be sent outside of the country

24:31

for processing and sent back to be

24:33

sold. So it's really, it's just an

24:36

insane industry from every angle. I mean,

24:38

the global the global seafood industry is

24:40

about a $600 billion industry. Oh my

24:42

god, big, big, big money. And

24:45

the North American seafood industry is about $40

24:47

billion. The canned seafood industry is

24:49

projected to be at about $6 billion

24:52

over the next couple years. And as

24:54

I mentioned, has really experienced a ton

24:56

of growth over the past three years.

24:58

So yeah, it's a really big industry.

25:00

There are, I mean, especially in the

25:03

canned seafood space, just a handful of

25:05

really powerful incumbents that dominate the industry.

25:07

And have like gobbled each other up

25:09

and, you know, international acquisitions, etc. And

25:11

I've also like been embroiled in a

25:14

lot of like, you know, price fixing

25:16

scandals, etc. So I

25:18

think it's, I mean, I think it's a very,

25:21

and, you know, speaking to your

25:23

introduction, it's a very confusing industry

25:25

for consumers. That's scary. And I

25:28

think there's a there are many reasons for that,

25:30

which I can go into all of them. I

25:32

think, you know, the one that I like to

25:34

talk about a lot for obviously my own purposes

25:36

is there really aren't any brands in the industry

25:38

that people know and relate to. So let's say

25:40

like, Vivian, what's your favorite ice cream brand? I

25:43

know it's a hard one. I have several. Probably

25:46

Dan Lewin. Okay, great. What's

25:48

like your second favorite ice cream brand? Oh,

25:51

not ice cream, but it's Halo Top. They do like

25:53

a nice healthy alternative. Amazing. I love it.

25:56

I just listened to that podcast about

25:58

that company. So insane. story

26:00

you could probably need like four more ice

26:02

cream brands I love like

26:04

what are the seafood brands you love? Yeah

26:08

you know what there is one and only because it had a pop

26:10

culture moment with

26:15

Jessica Simpson chicken of the sea

26:18

is not chicken it's tuna and

26:20

that is the only reason why

26:22

I remember that. Exactly so

26:24

I mean gotta love chicken of the

26:26

sea for creating this space for that

26:28

beautiful pop culture moment but there's just

26:30

no there are no brands in this

26:32

category and like that's again it's very

26:34

rare to find such an enormous industry

26:36

that has no brands and I think the lack

26:38

of brands has contributed to a lack

26:40

of understanding around seafood because we do

26:43

look at brands like how you're talking

26:45

to me right now we look at

26:47

them to help us understand you know

26:49

the mechanics of the industry and help

26:51

like tell I mean brands are storytellers

26:53

so like they tell the story of

26:55

their product and because there are no

26:57

brands in seafood like no one is

26:59

doing a very good job of telling

27:01

the story and many which are just

27:03

incredible incredible stories so gosh

27:05

I can't you remember what the question was

27:08

or what I'm even talking about. Fishing

27:10

industry basics like you know I

27:12

think there are I'm really curious

27:14

because I was reading this piece

27:16

about how there was a major

27:18

problem with Somalian pirates but in

27:20

reality those pirates were just fishermen

27:22

who could no longer make a

27:25

living because major fishing corporations had

27:27

basically destroyed all of the fishable

27:29

area and you know off of

27:31

the coast of Somalia due to

27:33

deep-sea trawling which correct me if

27:35

I'm wrong it's basically where they

27:37

take like a mega like rake

27:39

shaped thing and just kind of like

27:41

scoop up everything from the bottom up

27:44

and it just completely destroyed

27:46

the ecosystem and now you know there

27:48

are obviously so many factors impacting the

27:50

fishing industry I think what you guys

27:52

obviously do a really great job of

27:54

branding and also sharing is that your

27:57

fish are sustainably farmed. someone

28:00

says like fish is fished, is that like a

28:02

guy with like a rod or is that like

28:04

a mega, you know deep sea

28:06

trawler and then when you say sustainably

28:09

fished or sustainably farmed like I Like

28:11

I'm having a hard time picturing what that looks like

28:13

because I know what a farm looks like when they're

28:15

growing corn or if they're growing wheat, but fish don't

28:18

grow out of the ground and How

28:20

do you farm fish? It's such

28:23

a great question and you had I mean, I'm

28:25

so glad you're asking That there were like a

28:27

couple a couple questions and what

28:29

you brought up But like I think

28:31

what you're talking about is they call

28:33

it IUU fishing so it's illegal unreported

28:36

or unregulated fishing Wow, definitely just like

28:38

one of the biggest threats and challenges

28:40

to the fishing industry from every aspect

28:42

from like the From

28:45

the labor aspect and human rights

28:47

aspect and also the environmental perspective

28:49

and unfortunately one fifth of wild

28:51

caught fish In the globe is

28:53

caught illegally, which is horrible That's

28:56

a huge percentage. It's a huge

28:58

percentage and for reasons you can imagine Traceability

29:01

and fisheries management is very very

29:04

complex and that's why this

29:06

is the case but let me get into your question

29:08

about like farming versus wild

29:10

caught fish because this is like the

29:12

biggest it is The

29:15

biggest area of confusion people do not understand

29:17

it There's just and I have learned so much

29:19

and I'm so grateful for that opportunity So

29:22

basically in seafood sustainability,

29:24

there are zero blanket statements like there

29:27

really aren't any except maybe

29:29

that that shellfish

29:31

aquaculture so like oysters and

29:34

muffles and raising oysters and

29:36

muffles is like always sustainable I have

29:38

I can't think of a situation where

29:40

raising shellfish would be unsustainable. They don't

29:42

require any seed inputs They're like a

29:45

self-sustaining both of those species. So that's

29:47

kind of like the only blanket statement

29:49

I think you can say about sustainability

29:51

and efficiency food. Otherwise things are really

29:53

quite nuanced Which is

29:56

why I think there's why people have so

29:58

many question marks about how to buy sustainable

30:00

seafood. Okay, so we can break

30:02

it down into, you know, let's say

30:04

farming and fishing. So a fishery, just

30:07

for people to know, because I hear there's

30:09

a lot of confusion about this, like a fishery refers

30:11

to a wild capture fishery.

30:13

So that's in the ocean, that's

30:15

fishermen catching wild fish. A farm

30:17

relates to an operation where people

30:19

are raising fish, not wild fish.

30:21

So I'll first look at farms.

30:24

So there are many methods of

30:26

aquaculture. I'll zoom into our rainbow

30:29

trout. So rainbow trout is basically

30:31

by and large not commercially, wild

30:33

trout is not commercially available. When you're eating

30:35

trout, there's a, I mean, I would say

30:37

it's like a 99% chance of eating

30:40

farm raised trout. I know there's like one fishery

30:42

up in Canada that's like in this big lake,

30:44

but I doubt that the

30:47

lay person is using that trout. So the

30:49

trout farm that we work with, it's the

30:51

biggest trout farm in America, and it was

30:53

sort of an acquisition of several individual trout

30:55

farms. And basically what you can imagine,

30:57

this method of aquaculture is called land-based

30:59

flow through raceway. I know it's a

31:02

bit of a mouthful, but what it

31:04

is, is just kind of imagine like

31:07

an Olympic size swimming pool with different lanes

31:09

in it. And those lanes are protected. So

31:12

instead of like an actual swimming pool

31:14

where you could swim from one to

31:16

the other, there's, you know, walls and

31:18

barriers between every lane. And the flow

31:20

through part refers to water

31:22

being pushed through that Olympic

31:25

size swimming pool to ensure that there's a

31:27

ton of motion in the water. So the fish are

31:29

swimming back and forth and the water is being kept

31:32

clean. So it's really amazing because a

31:34

lot of these aquaculture operations

31:36

have to exist in a

31:38

particular geographical location because of the

31:41

like geographical elements. So for

31:43

like or geological elements. So

31:45

for example, and I know it's getting a little bit nitty

31:48

gritty, but it's really cool. So the

31:50

valley that our trout farm is in

31:52

an Idaho was split

31:54

by a huge like flood in,

31:56

you know, prehistoric times. And

31:59

it has resulted in all of the, an

32:01

ancient aquifer being cut. And so

32:03

there's all these waterfalls that are

32:05

bursting out from like

32:08

the cliffs that are on the side of the valley. I

32:10

promise we'll get to a place that makes sense. So

32:13

the scout farm harnesses the

32:15

power of these waterfalls and

32:18

diverse them into these

32:20

like Olympic sized swimming pools. So they're

32:23

actually not even needing to come

32:25

up with the like energy. It's

32:27

hydroelectric energy that comes from this

32:30

bisected aquifer. So anyway, I know that was

32:32

a lot. I feel like I went a

32:34

little bit deep, but that is

32:36

one method of aquaculture. For

32:39

another example, there's something called

32:41

a RAS system, a recirculating aquaculture

32:43

system that actually looks like a

32:45

huge above ground swimming pool. So

32:47

that's like completely, you know, not

32:50

touching any part of an external

32:52

environment. And that is, I

32:54

would say is still a very burgeoning

32:56

industry, but a RAS system, so

32:59

that's like completely contained. It does require a

33:01

ton of energy. And there have been a

33:03

lot of problems getting into work really effectively

33:05

in the US at least. I'm

33:08

not familiar a ton with RAS systems because

33:11

I don't work with any of them that are working super

33:13

well, but I think it's a huge,

33:15

huge area of opportunity and we'll continue to see

33:17

that develop. And I think we'll become a very

33:19

big part of our aquaculture industry. But

33:21

anyway, so all that is to say, there are

33:24

many, there's open net pen farming, which doesn't sound,

33:26

I think people have a very strong

33:28

ideas of what open ocean

33:31

and net pen farming is. And by the

33:33

way, there are reasons for, you know,

33:35

aquaculture does have a, I think a stigma

33:38

for many people. It's a really, really,

33:40

really relatively new industry. I mean,

33:42

if people have been doing some

33:44

form of aquaculture for thousands of

33:46

years, but like this sort of

33:48

commercial industrial aquaculture is still

33:50

in its nascent stages. So

33:52

there has been irresponsible farming and there have been

33:55

escapes, there's in sea lights, et cetera, like what

33:57

you saw in sea spears sea, but that's some

33:59

players. and not others. It's like when

34:02

you think about, you know, the poultry

34:04

industry, obviously there are horribly irresponsible and

34:06

abusive farms, but then they're also amazing

34:08

ones. And it's the same thing in

34:10

all cultures. So I think that's

34:13

all I know I'm talking so much, but like basically

34:15

the moral of the

34:17

story for farms, and I'll get into

34:19

fisheries, is that there are people doing

34:21

it extremely well and extremely responsibly and

34:23

people that are not doing it well. And

34:25

that's kind of like how it is with

34:27

every, I mean with every industry generally, but

34:29

with every, you know, food industry. So there's

34:31

no blanket statement, you

34:34

know, farm raises is better or worse.

34:36

You kind of have to like dig

34:38

into the farm. That being said, most

34:40

people don't have the time to dig

34:42

into the farm. So we work with

34:44

ASC certified farms. ASC is the agriculture

34:46

stewardship council, and that's the global standard

34:48

for sustainable, responsible

34:50

farming. So if you want

34:52

to get farmed fish, which I would

34:54

highly encourage, I mean there's amazing, nutritious,

34:56

really high quality farm fish in the

34:58

world. I think you can refer to

35:00

the ASC seal, it's a little light

35:02

blue seal, to make sure you're making

35:04

a responsible decision. Okay, I'm

35:06

going to talk about fisheries for a less time

35:08

than that, because I know that was a lot,

35:10

but it's kind of the same thing

35:12

with fisheries. There are some that are

35:15

super responsibly managed and some that are

35:17

not or they're unregulated and

35:19

they're not, you know, being properly monitored

35:21

or regulated. So like the North

35:24

American fisheries, we have some of

35:26

the best regulated fisheries in the world in

35:28

America. That's the Magnusson's, I always like to

35:31

say this wrong, the Magnusson's Stevenson,

35:33

the Magnusson's Stevenson fishery

35:36

bill was passed in the 70s and basically it

35:39

just put a lot of standards into place to

35:41

make sure that the American fisheries were being properly

35:44

regulated to ensure their sustainability. So

35:46

we have really great fisheries

35:48

in the US. I think people can feel

35:51

really great buying American COTC food products, but

35:53

there are many fisheries that are not as

35:55

well regulated. And that's where I think you

35:57

can get into situations like you're talking about.

36:00

what the small pirates were, there's just

36:02

less strong regulation, less effective

36:04

fisheries management. And just to give

36:06

you an idea, like, what is

36:08

fisheries management? So,

36:11

so much to unpack the Arabian, I feel like

36:13

this is, it's really just, it's

36:15

quite a bit, but I love that you are nerding

36:18

out on this so hard. You're

36:20

like, I love fish so much.

36:23

Yes, it's, I mean, there's just so

36:26

much. And I think it's really challenging

36:28

because I want people to better understand

36:30

the seafood industry. But when you do

36:32

try to dig into it, you don't want

36:34

to give blanket statements because they're because they're

36:37

not true. It's like there's no species that's

36:39

always sustainable other than maybe shellfish, as I

36:41

mentioned earlier, and there's no fisheries that are

36:43

always sustainable, like these things change, they say

36:45

they change a lot. So I think

36:48

that's the challenging aspect is like when you

36:50

are thinking this is this is the nexus

36:52

that I give people to look at when

36:54

they're thinking about seafood sustainability, you have to

36:56

think about what species of fish it is,

36:58

where it's caught and how it's caught. And

37:01

that combined is like that's the

37:03

that is the fishery. So there

37:05

are it's just like every time

37:07

you think about a seafood product, you

37:09

have to look at it from that angle, which is a lot

37:11

of angles to look at. You

37:16

have said there are no blanket statements. However,

37:18

you want to move on to a slightly

37:21

lighter note. Little lightning round, so you are

37:23

going to have to make some decisions. And

37:27

we'll start easy and they'll get a little

37:29

harder as we go along. Okay, scared,

37:31

but I'm ready. First up tuna,

37:34

salmon or rainbow trout. Pick one.

37:36

Oh my god, so hard.

37:38

I'm gonna say rainbow trout, even

37:40

though I love salmon. Wow. The

37:44

rainbow trout, I think rainbow trout because not

37:47

enough people are eating rainbow trout and it's the best thing in

37:49

the world. So I love that. You

37:51

go to the store, you see a

37:54

label wild Alaskan cocks or

37:56

sustainably farmed. Which one

37:58

are you buying? Oh my god. So

38:01

hard. I like farmed Sam because

38:03

it's so fatty and delicious. And

38:05

because I think there's really amazing, like

38:07

the farm that we work with is just a

38:10

really incredible innovative farm and I think that more

38:12

farms need to follow suit and

38:14

innovate and like invest in advances. Sorry, that

38:16

was so much more than you asked for.

38:19

But oh my gosh, depends on what you're

38:21

eating. Depends on what you're eating. Cool.

38:23

What is your favorite type of sushi, if

38:25

you were to order? Oh my gosh, so

38:27

tough. I mean, I love scallops.

38:30

I love toro, but toro can be

38:32

complex because if it comes from,

38:34

if it's true toro and it comes from luffin tuna,

38:36

luffin tuna is really by and large, not

38:39

sustainably fish. So I wouldn't eat

38:41

that. But I think most of the toro I would

38:43

be getting is also not from luffin tuna. So I

38:45

love toro. Since we are

38:48

fish-wise, fuck Mary Kale, flounder

38:50

from Little Mermaid, Marlin the

38:52

dad from Finding Nemo or Mrs.

38:55

Pluss from SpongeBob Squarepants. Oh

38:57

my God. Okay. Fuck the

38:59

dad from Nemo. I

39:04

don't know Mrs. Puff, so we can kill her. We can

39:06

kill her. Did you not watch SpongeBob growing

39:08

up? I did, but I haven't watched it in a long

39:10

time. Okay. All right. And

39:12

what was the last one? Flounder from Little

39:14

Mermaid. Okay, obviously Mary, Mary

39:16

Flounder. Very, very, very, like

39:19

that. That is a rising lineup for me. It's not

39:21

where I thought this was going to go, but I

39:23

am happy to hear it. Love it.

39:25

Love it, Addie. Last

39:29

but not least, if you were a fish, what kind of

39:31

fish would you be and why? Oh my

39:33

gosh. I would be, I was in

39:36

Hawaii for the first time and I saw

39:38

very long fish that looked like a pencil.

39:40

I think I would like to be that. A pencil

39:43

fish. The pencil fish. Just because I'm like, you're

39:45

so crazy looking. I want to look, I want

39:47

to be like that. Are we like

39:49

confident it wasn't an eel? It

39:51

wasn't an eel. It was like the funniest,

39:54

funniest little pencil fish. But I don't know what

39:56

it was called, but I was like, it would be

39:58

cool to be that long. Okay,

40:02

and to wrap our episode up, I

40:04

do want to ask, economically speaking, I'm

40:06

sure you've noticed things have gotten a

40:09

little tighter with consumer's wallets. How

40:11

do you best recommend people who enjoy fish,

40:14

who enjoy seafood to get it for the

40:16

least expensive prices while also keeping in mind

40:18

all the things we've discussed today about buying

40:21

sustainably and not completely destroying the planet?

40:24

How do people affordably eat the seafood that

40:26

they love? That's a great question. I

40:28

mean, I will take this opportunity to advocate

40:30

for the tinned format just because tinned

40:33

fish, it's been proven that, you

40:35

know, tinned fish reduces food waste because, you

40:37

know, it's like you're making a whole fish and

40:39

you might eat half of it and then maybe

40:41

you put it in the fridge and then you're

40:43

not actually going to eat that the next day.

40:45

And so I would say, like, buy canned fish,

40:47

like whether it's fish wipe or

40:49

some other kind, like it's perfectly

40:51

portioned for one, you know, meal

40:53

and then you don't waste anything

40:56

and not wasting is affordable.

40:58

Like as you, I feel

41:00

like, you know, it's just don't buy what you

41:03

don't need. It's so crazy. I was just doing

41:05

research for another piece of content I was making.

41:07

Nearly 40 percent of food in

41:09

the US is wasted and it amounts

41:12

to $408 billion of waste every year.

41:16

That's a lot of money. See, that's I think I

41:18

think that's what I would advocate

41:20

people reframe, like when they're looking at maybe a

41:22

piece of fish that's bigger than a can of

41:24

fish. It's like, OK, maybe it is

41:26

maybe the ounce is more, but like you're not. Are

41:28

you actually going to eat that whole thing if you're,

41:30

you know, a person with a partner or if you're

41:33

living on your own or what have you, like whatever

41:35

you can do to prevent food waste, even if it's

41:37

getting a higher quality, more expensive product, which is kind

41:39

of the philosophy I've been living by recently.

41:41

I love it. OK, please tell

41:43

everyone where they can find you, where they

41:45

can find Fish Wife. You can

41:47

find Fish Wife on all social channels at

41:50

at Fish Wife. And then

41:52

our website is eatfishwife.com and

41:54

you can get all of our products there. And then

41:57

we're in Whole Foods and a bunch of specialty stores

41:59

around the country. So, but the

42:01

website is your best bet. Amazing. Awesome. Thank

42:03

you so much for being here today. I

42:05

had so much fun talking with you and

42:08

nerding out about fish. Thank you so

42:10

much for letting me nerd out about fish movie.

42:12

It is a real privilege. Thank

42:15

you. Oh my God, I got so nerdy. I really

42:17

gotta get better. I gotta get better. Thanks

42:21

for tuning into this week's episode of Net Worth

42:23

and Chill. If you liked this episode, make sure

42:25

to leave a rating and a review and subscribe

42:27

so you never miss an episode. Got a financial

42:29

question you want answered in the future? You can

42:31

leave me a voicemail or text me at 908-858-3410.

42:38

Make sure to follow me at yourbitchbff

42:40

across social media for even more relatable

42:42

financial content. Special thanks to my

42:44

team at AudioBoom as well as Range Media

42:46

and WME. See you next week. Bye.