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Welcome to the New Books Network! Hello

1:03

Everyone and welcome to New Books and

1:05

Anthropology A podcast channel on the New

1:08

Book Network. I. Were you can go

1:10

on a host on the channel. And. Today

1:12

I'm talking to doctor as Jaco

1:14

A to Armor will coach or.

1:17

Who. Is the author of the book

1:19

Voodoo in Vogue, Fashioning Black Divinities and

1:21

Haiti and the United States published by

1:23

the University of North Carolina Press. Welcome

1:26

to the podcast Doctor Will Culture Thanks

1:28

for heavily! So cool! Yeah if it's

1:30

great, I'm really excited to talk with

1:32

you about your book. Ah my! Had

1:35

a great time at reading about a

1:37

Voodoo in Vogue and which you examine

1:39

the use of clothing and jewelry and

1:41

forming Voodoo communities in the United States

1:44

in Haiti. And so this is just

1:46

a typical introductory. Question to ask you how

1:48

you came to study voodoo and how you came

1:50

to write Woo to in. Yeah,

1:53

so big You so much for introducing

1:55

me I I've been looking forward to

1:57

this interview for awhile so on. If

2:00

it's the honor reagan to have

2:02

you are talking I famous first

2:05

book on voting involving your hear

2:07

me say the word vote do

2:09

vs voodoo Ah because that is

2:12

the wage you are distinguished. The

2:14

difference between Haitian. Voodoo.

2:16

From New Orleans vs. Bow Do though

2:18

do with the phone word from the

2:21

Nyt from the name which means spirit.

2:24

And so if you hear me

2:26

say bow do that like the

2:29

way to do those vote like

2:31

vote on vote and on I

2:33

love really excited about is that

2:36

this book is the second Ah

2:38

academic book has ever written on

2:40

a Haitian voted practitioner. ah and

2:43

the first thought was raided by

2:45

Care. Mccarthy Brown The Late Care

2:47

Mccarthy Brown. Ah mama Lola

2:49

on so I'm I'm really excited about

2:52

beat a heart of history and in

2:54

her book with a nice and I

2:56

want him and you know my books

2:58

around twenty twenty three. So been over

3:00

thirty years since another book on Haiti

3:03

in the Haitian diaspora or have been

3:05

written about on the as you think

3:07

about a vote who practitioner some that

3:09

practices of the village tradition ah. So.

3:12

This is this is really exciting that is really claim

3:14

to. Have a conversation. Ah

3:16

the you ask me, how

3:18

did I come into writing

3:20

on the boat? And both

3:22

and. Honestly, Reagan This

3:24

is in such a journey I

3:27

know that some people with a

3:29

like an ogre first book is

3:31

written, a founder discussion and turns

3:33

her blood but for me actually

3:36

I've been working on this since

3:38

undergrad, some one of those special

3:40

nerdy student ah as that have

3:42

been thinking about boat issue of

3:44

religion, a gender and sexuality ah

3:47

and overall Afrikaner studies since undergrad

3:49

so when I would I want

3:51

to use and a Barbara ah.

3:53

For undergrad and I was working especially

3:56

closely with what am I a for

3:58

a mentored mentors who's now retired. They

4:00

were perfect recording Michelle and.

4:04

Vet according Michelle was one of those

4:06

bird. Haitian faculty in Santa Barbara.

4:08

So I took a class and

4:11

in undergrad and and called Ask

4:13

and Up and Die For Collisions

4:15

Now Reagan I need you to

4:18

feel like out a junior by

4:20

that five of the spring semester.

4:23

And. A new I want to go to

4:25

grad school. Bus. And I knew

4:27

I loved village I love be good

4:29

about black religion. Ah my parents are

4:32

are christians I'd I'd I can can

4:34

come from because of have a bathroom

4:36

it's quarterly christian and and there is

4:39

a moment a that you when you

4:41

go into any type of black hole

4:43

sometimes you'll see a black season for

4:46

that is your why Jesus allow like

4:48

Morrow the King and now like Obama

4:50

you know and they so for me

4:52

ah I was tired of seeing and

4:55

white Jesus and so. I

4:57

imagine. There was

4:59

ah we have a girl Christian but

5:01

then you know in my in my

5:03

home been and began with that person

5:06

or a son or second generation depend

5:08

on that automatically from ah a Nigerian

5:10

American. And. I.

5:13

Had a they were you know the

5:16

repressing christian tradition in our honor Jesus

5:18

Christ and but imagine we're still do

5:20

libations the rest of the owner in

5:22

our ancestors and we always had herbs

5:25

and spices right there are if anyone

5:27

was sick so I would like. A

5:30

wide we have is why do we

5:32

do this stuff so bad with all

5:34

within the that was always curious about

5:36

and so now a sip of class

5:38

on and I for Religion and. Ah,

5:41

Here we are learning about

5:43

the African influences. During

5:46

the trend nationals travel adequate

5:48

rate that has impacted on

5:51

the New World and fourthly

5:53

portly of mood or west

5:56

and Central African to the

5:58

New World. And don't

6:00

we know that the weather better

6:03

Afghan that were include aware of

6:05

your from been in Nigeria, Angola,

6:07

Congo on Cameroon. Fab.

6:10

And and and others like I am the

6:12

i could eat a cookie going on on.

6:14

But again we keep Nigeria an ending. Or

6:17

Nigerians we know that day they are the

6:19

big Yorba President and other a significant amount

6:21

of evil present. So now my parents. Become.

6:24

From an evil family on and I

6:26

think that it's important you know that

6:29

for anyone that listening at my god

6:31

served in the be offer war so

6:33

that his arm of in windows and

6:36

that is when I'm from sixteen nineteen

6:38

sixty nine ninety seventy one is were

6:40

on the he but there was able

6:43

to sessions where people are a bookstore

6:45

wanted to on have a different er

6:47

den and a removal from the the

6:50

like nigeria so my dad with it

6:52

was a part of their leadership. In

6:54

the military that try to be. A part

6:56

of that armed. Resistance. So I gave

6:59

you this. Background.

7:02

But again imagine uncommon with all

7:04

that in that class and African

7:06

diaper religion. And so I'm sitting

7:08

there and I'm learn about ah

7:10

didn't religious tradition flag on condom

7:12

blade from Brazil that that he

7:14

a French Cuba there's a team

7:16

to Haiti it Haitian voodoo and

7:18

when I was I am I

7:20

hasten bowed you login I brought

7:22

the transplant explain trade on and

7:24

as I was learn bow how.

7:27

They. Were different nations

7:29

And Haiti? Ah, that's.

7:32

Ah, That. Brought.

7:34

People that was we brought people back

7:36

to me from different walks of life

7:38

like get the the about the Congo

7:40

that makes a the your by the

7:43

job of Nigeria ah that the with

7:45

a fondue from the name. People

7:47

for that. for Angola. And not only

7:49

are they having to work in that the

7:51

the toil, the of slavery and in the

7:54

slave trade thing about like. The

7:56

production of cup of cocoa and tobacco

7:59

and cotton. They all

8:01

had to figure out a way to communicate with

8:03

each other and a way to think about how

8:05

people are directing but the really their religion and

8:07

bringing their religion in there and or wholeness with

8:09

what each other ah in the state of white

8:11

the of. White Supremacy. And

8:14

so. This. Is where

8:16

we thing about leaving my trans national

8:18

trend nationalism, this election national altogether and

8:20

so when we think about though do

8:23

both do either is a meeting of

8:25

nations you know. Ah so I was

8:27

learning how they are different nations although

8:29

do it or the this is like

8:31

the standard a pantheon that get to

8:33

be what the pantheon and thing about

8:35

the spirit I get to be called

8:38

are within heat with in Haiti and

8:40

represent the different as a nation as

8:42

though they are calling people from like

8:44

they're the a set. Order of a

8:46

way that point on the different spirits and

8:48

the kind of of disappeared from the name

8:50

because people from angle lab if I'm from

8:53

the congo so adding that the petrol the

8:55

radha. Ah, Ah,

8:58

That get a nation than that did

9:01

you been Mit nation is a fascinating

9:03

to me and then they were not

9:05

to the evolution our lab have won

9:08

the game here I am learn about

9:10

like my own upbringing and then also

9:12

understanding that they were Ebola in haiti

9:15

so I would like this is it

9:17

This is so fascinating so ah I

9:19

want full of think about like when

9:21

we think about them number of scholars

9:24

and in African diaspora we are coming

9:26

with our for sell. That are full

9:28

understanding on and the way that we.

9:31

Are seeing the world? Where it?

9:33

Where we are. Friends. Or though

9:35

the but the have back rounded up with

9:37

didn't ask. And as for us to the

9:40

big it's origins don't see that do connections

9:42

that have a personal connection so I was

9:44

that included thought oh yeah this is it

9:46

this is this is fascinating and I started

9:49

asking questions about that different types of on.

9:52

What? What's happened with Ebola in The Evil

9:54

Influences Learning about how or the god

9:56

I'm laughing says i think it's a

9:58

kind of the funny. The Evil God

10:00

the have to give the evil God money.

10:04

And he added that when they're offering

10:06

now or reagan. I really love money

10:08

so I didn't know that there was

10:11

a different way of honoring. deed is.

10:14

That is I'm about as act

10:16

as a honoring the a deal

10:19

with with money a like this

10:21

is cool. I started asking questions

10:23

about like the different than these,

10:25

what was happening with them under

10:28

the female archetypes. As

10:30

Li freight and at the dance Whoa!

10:32

Who are like with the main deities

10:34

and ah well with happy with the

10:37

role a color them colonialism to look

10:39

at it's historical context And as Mcnair

10:41

color Ronald Mcnair scholar I was offered

10:43

a chance to do research to check

10:46

to see if they think about those

10:48

questions. So this is back in two

10:50

thousand and nine on. Where

10:52

I was able to go to Haiti under

10:55

the tutelage of. Clottey Michelle vet

10:57

according to sound professor would look for to. Strongmen

10:59

and of the Progress Professor The

11:01

Dead for tundra and naming names

11:03

I think about the this the

11:06

lineage of my own understanding and

11:08

and on training are that best

11:10

that heavily influenced how I moved

11:12

in the space of and also

11:14

this the privileges I got to

11:16

chapter travel with the scholars as

11:19

a joke at early an early

11:21

age on. Ah, and so.

11:23

Why was there I was at

11:25

while. In

11:28

doesn't for the two thousand nine. I got

11:30

a chance to go to Haiti for the

11:32

first time and so when I ended up

11:34

in Haiti I started looking around. I noted

11:37

the mike. Some. Of these didn't

11:39

like swimming people look like like like

11:41

my my cousin, the my brother the

11:43

Mississippi like all that is so cool

11:46

so I am. I'm sure that background

11:48

story to. To. Signify that.

11:51

There. Was a number of connections I saw the

11:53

number that that the diaspora connections over my

11:55

time in Nigeria, my time and then now

11:57

my time in Haiti and it every single

11:59

year. organ up on on a

12:01

state of the place and learn about

12:04

though do in a traveler and learn

12:06

about voter ceremonies. So now ten years.

12:10

Prior. It's over ten years prior to

12:12

been and on in in Haiti. For

12:14

the first time, I made several trip

12:16

back and forth to Haiti. And

12:20

when it came to our thinking

12:22

about that, the project and now

12:24

but the monk rafol and and

12:26

and on a been a debate.

12:28

I've been to over three hundred

12:30

ceremony so make I need to

12:32

understand how many ceremony that it.

12:35

Might not be hundred pm I I've been

12:37

all around like different type of Haiti from

12:39

the get resolved melted. Bearable aid kit

12:42

off to of are deported friend

12:44

of into northern places up the

12:46

southern places I've gotta be placed

12:48

in Haiti and now the demise

12:50

of the diaspora like much y'all

12:52

New York City during the I'm

12:54

Northern California course Miami's that them

12:56

at the University of Miami ah

12:58

and of an author of Boston

13:00

on and that in I think

13:02

we should know that botnet the

13:04

third largest population of Haitians. He

13:06

should people the first is ah

13:08

I'm. A Miami and

13:10

the second is New York City

13:13

and so now pick him Boston.

13:15

I was able to look at

13:17

boat vote who practice in Boston

13:19

and and Haiti. So. Ah,

13:22

The been over three like a

13:24

building up at my my own

13:26

archives and my old and the

13:29

plot hole methods of exploring doing

13:31

a qualitative work and look at

13:33

a given ceremonies. I was noticing

13:35

that there was a special thing

13:37

about how people connected the spirits

13:39

are and how people are using

13:41

their own gifts and in a

13:44

way to. Be

13:46

attentive to their own training as well

13:48

as their gifts and a way to

13:50

honor the spirit. And so

13:52

ah, this is there. And the same thing

13:54

about when I was. Going.

13:56

To like have a home and much

13:58

wrong. It's like. Come on were

14:01

like I'm gonna get the like a

14:03

mediocre, a carpenter or allied. When.

14:06

I was in Haiti and even in

14:08

the He Should diaspora I noticed that

14:10

people that people who practice religion will

14:12

use their gifts ah to connect with

14:14

the spirit. And this is something

14:17

that I was noticing as is that

14:19

overall connection of how people have any

14:21

lived reality. The Lid practices with the

14:23

religion with their religious tradition. So we

14:25

think about live live religions. Idea com

14:27

for the Lid Religion Religion. Bow.

14:29

Do with a par their everyday

14:31

reality as a people would their

14:34

their their give their their focus

14:36

in their their on trainings to

14:38

to think about bow do in

14:40

a particular way on and so

14:42

in my book and voters vote

14:45

if it is that bed finish

14:47

This one of the places I've

14:49

gone to was this bill haitian

14:51

voted practitioner who recently passed away

14:54

his name of national var he

14:56

was a trained a biochemist and

14:58

in his home. He could.

15:00

She had over two thousand plants and

15:02

species and he knew what species that

15:05

when they were to honor. The different

15:07

spirit of each of organic element had

15:09

a correlation with the spirit of something

15:12

for healing, Something for like mental health.

15:14

And so he uses his back on

15:16

training that as a biochemist at Kenneth

15:19

the do that. Now when I was

15:21

also New York I heard about this

15:23

this carpenter ah who. Ah,

15:26

who knew the skin back of his home?

15:28

And it's them Brooklyn. New York, Brooklyn,

15:30

New York. That ah he had

15:32

a underground pool for a spirit

15:34

named what Lhasa then after that

15:37

is. The mermaid spirit

15:39

Again, I want I'm I'm using

15:41

these examples to showcase how. People

15:43

are you there telling Ah Choo

15:46

Choo connected the spirit and connected

15:48

to it in a unique way.

15:50

For reading about the diversity of

15:52

Oh Do as well as the

15:54

uniqueness of Oh Do even with

15:56

the even when vote who has

15:58

ah given rule that. The road

16:00

and and regulations you there

16:02

to it's practices. Again, people

16:05

were adding their own twist and

16:07

so. When I was at

16:09

Harvard Divinity School. and it is in

16:11

two thousand and eleven It's Eleven Twelve

16:13

thirteen of the went back and forth

16:15

the Haiti and going to others bases

16:17

in Montreal. I

16:19

met this woman named Bob

16:22

Mumble mode of through people

16:24

that. Do people

16:26

who have on. Ah,

16:28

talk with her or have

16:30

actually studied under her and

16:32

I. I've never. I went

16:34

her voter ceremony and I was noticing how that

16:37

she was using the pope or use a fashion.

16:39

And clothing and so I would

16:41

like. This is very distinct and

16:43

very different than than the the

16:45

this app that file ally a

16:47

couple hundred places. That I've I've

16:49

I've. Went to like the way

16:51

the shooting fashion and the more. Another

16:53

chance to talk to her. I found

16:56

out that on her training in her

16:58

schooling she was not only on she

17:00

had a degree in economics. She.

17:02

Has a degree in. Ah

17:05

fastened studies and a degree from led

17:08

the university as a mental health condition

17:10

so she was you the all her

17:12

training. To. help her aluminum

17:14

and beautify that the boat a

17:17

tradition. This. Was very distinct

17:19

from other other spaces. again. Ah I've

17:21

been to scare that Alaska for twenty

17:23

four hours. Yemen left by for four

17:25

to six hours. Ah but the way

17:27

that she's as fast and the way

17:29

that she was opt manning her space

17:31

by for the way that she was

17:33

ah making really distinct type of clothing

17:36

that was rare for after talking to

17:38

my mentor Going: is this something that

17:40

we can talk about the like No

17:42

one has talked about that the youth

17:44

of materiality and clothing in that way

17:46

at all like I think. I have my

17:48

project. I think I think I have it. Now.

17:51

I just brought the fact that I talked buy

17:53

clothing, I think it's important

17:55

to know that again or back

17:57

round and who we are are

17:59

instead. Pat How. Are

18:01

the way the be able

18:04

to see see see that

18:06

so. I i

18:08

i think factor people to have

18:10

a Africanists i used land and

18:12

also if you're part of the

18:14

first of. The

18:17

day of the African diaspora in for

18:19

me and again Nigerian There's a way

18:21

that clothing and fashion and how you

18:23

show up in the space of really

18:25

dies or impacts how people view you

18:27

and see you and then you know

18:29

if we think about of other religious

18:32

tradition like a crisp credit criticism tradition

18:34

the black Churches of people were there

18:36

funny back with you go away like

18:38

they're different has a clothing their the

18:40

way that you know you're not have

18:42

shown up for yourself and the community

18:44

but disrupt the spirit so. In.

18:47

My whole in my home been a

18:49

Nigerian family, my mom and will always

18:51

tell me that I need to be

18:53

a better job draft enough for Reagan.

18:56

And. Magic Anthony from California I call

18:58

my my dress styled a hobo sheet

19:00

style though this is like sat on

19:02

my from Sacramento of rove saw that

19:04

the Bourbon Sheiks I were yoga pants

19:06

and ah and I and I'm a

19:09

nice top and a mere of i've

19:11

always been flip flop and my mom

19:13

would say is apple please stop looking

19:15

like a bull you need to mix

19:17

of the dress better what what is

19:19

Oprah combs and if sees you please

19:22

little you have a a mother and

19:24

then she was bad as everyone. At

19:26

have thought. That look

19:28

better. So again the idea that

19:31

look about fashion about showing up

19:33

on who the food water you

19:35

this is. This is a part

19:37

of my for me my my

19:40

own Niger aesthetics now. Watching

19:42

how mobile mode ah a mumble

19:44

marine mode Evans is is shoving

19:47

are. using. Hurt and

19:49

using fashion to not only connect

19:51

with her community but also the

19:53

god I was like her I

19:55

heard degrees ah been made sense

19:57

to me Me neither that to

19:59

me and her her fashion authentic

20:02

made like Afrikaner sense to me

20:04

the way that life will are

20:06

using an address and fashion and

20:08

clothing to choose to connect with

20:10

themselves and the spirit. So this

20:12

is this is I hope that

20:14

our the great on background and

20:16

than my influences that have been

20:19

from my home as well as

20:21

on my own Censorship on and

20:23

off A why I chose to

20:25

do the things I want to

20:27

do. Ya. Are

20:29

you think you so much for that?

20:31

for the introduction to you and to

20:34

the project and the book and what

20:36

you were looking at? Am I love

20:38

how you connect to the to carry

20:40

Mccarthy Brown and your early Am classes.

20:42

As an undergrad, I also took a

20:45

class on African Die of Diaspora Religions

20:47

at the University of Virginia. As an

20:49

undergrad West the professor Cynthia How are

20:51

for time and on and we read

20:53

Mama Lola. So I always think about

20:55

Mama Lola and turn Mccarthy Brown whenever

20:58

I read. Generally

21:00

about African diaspora religions, the also about

21:02

women and these religions and and the

21:04

focus on like a singular person and

21:07

I always think about her and that's

21:09

like a. To me a classic book.

21:12

Yeah, in a decent I mean when I

21:14

say that came apart the brown put her,

21:16

put her foot in that book. She.

21:19

Really did on Now I know that

21:21

they are people bad on have problems

21:23

with it and they said that there

21:25

might be was it an earth and

21:27

pitfalls about the way this you thing

21:29

about poverty and end of that. There's

21:31

them to do other the death of voyeuristic

21:33

on. Our notions of how she's

21:35

been. it's been it. And in the stands

21:37

are talking to Mom and or Mama Lola.

21:40

And. Okay that I think

21:43

that there's a number critiques, but again,

21:45

we, you're the first book. That.

21:47

On Haitian a patient Abode Do and

21:49

aren't out of die for. Religion To

21:51

live religion to that you've been Reagan,

21:54

This the staple and and for me

21:56

and my own lineage. I was being

21:58

influenced by that book at that. With

22:00

it was very helpful to say to

22:02

say okay here the she did Now

22:04

here's another sure the land the she

22:06

has come from but now thinking about

22:09

myself specially as on of of a

22:11

black queer woman who is studying he

22:13

should bow do I recognized in a

22:15

field anthropological land and also reflects the

22:17

blend of their the way that I'm

22:19

going to end the field. That.

22:22

Is gonna be very different than how she enters

22:24

into the field the that they're that they're the

22:26

way that the people are going to see me

22:28

and Buemi and talk to me and can be

22:30

very different than how see these me and else

22:33

or at how she's been viewed and talk and

22:35

talk about. So again this. When. He

22:37

looks more real a book when and

22:39

and understanding that I'm coming from black

22:41

them had an hour are as an

22:43

F, not ethnographic lance. I'm. Really trying

22:45

to get the heart. At that who you

22:47

are. And and how you're

22:49

engaging with the people. That really does

22:52

impact how people are being used again.

22:54

When I was thinking about be in

22:56

the field and be with Mother Lode

22:58

mom was home I was always put

23:00

the work so Reagan I wanted. Imagine

23:02

that again I'm a full body brown

23:04

skinned black little with fourth the hair

23:06

on five nine on a good day

23:09

he was gonna should I be yoga.

23:11

And ah, their ways.

23:13

And wish that I was moved into

23:15

different spaces. I was able to be

23:18

in the changing room to like help

23:20

with that the clothes and fashion. I

23:22

was able to take down people on

23:24

here again mom or Kim chi. the

23:26

ballot box has he people's heads like

23:28

that like a chair on as a

23:30

white woman you know and then I

23:32

was helping people tie up their head

23:34

raf on it like an African fast

23:36

as an. and so I think that.

23:39

On. The we need

23:41

that a diversity a book than a

23:43

diversity of voices to talk about as

23:45

good as can dive work religions and

23:47

again the fact that care Mccarthy Brown

23:49

both lay the foundation for me I

23:51

then okay this is great now what

23:53

can I do that makes my my

23:56

understanding unique. And. That the I want to say

23:58

this doesn't make sure I'd say that I will. The

24:00

Travel. With. My

24:02

Care Mccarthy Brown. During.

24:05

Her will our final days of

24:07

living and then also light her

24:09

final time in Haiti. With

24:12

an experience for me because she was on

24:14

going in and out of dementia event at

24:16

that time but it again I knew that

24:18

the to the historic moment of washes her.

24:21

Ah, The she is fluent in in Haitian

24:23

Creole. ah and you know when watch them

24:25

a struggle with the mission and like and

24:28

clarity. Your move. Move in and out

24:30

of clarity and watching her like. Ah,

24:33

move and dance and and and and

24:36

and enjoy the space. I knew that

24:38

little the go against this of the

24:40

historic moment bound never forget Reagan. One

24:42

of my favorite moments with her was

24:44

when I was there were the of.

24:46

A buddhist, I'm a little. In there were

24:48

that sums running that was happening Now

24:51

Care Mccarthy, Balkin Dan as of their

24:53

she was just. Just moving to sway in her

24:55

hips and I'll have like. That.

24:58

I'm I'm fine letting people know that anyone with

25:00

any. Ah, My.

25:02

Don't we don't live on that will be like

25:04

see she was. She was able to move as

25:06

you would like just moon has and Lunar by

25:08

al like this is cool and then. I would

25:10

feel like not carry. out

25:13

of the i have you had a know about the is

25:15

like what would that and then she and she told me

25:17

she said. Ah, Zoc who. Are.

25:19

Good at the air was as like you know. Ah

25:22

the you know they com years ago In in

25:24

an end I in Haiti is actually she's I

25:27

guess you look an issue that the body. Never.

25:29

Forget. And. I thought that

25:32

was so profound like have to the

25:34

magic mike eat he did tell there's

25:36

something happening with memory in mind but

25:38

again the fact that like she she

25:41

knew how to the movies union had

25:43

like ah center self and knowing how

25:45

to dance see the the that type

25:47

of the drumming that was that was

25:49

being played. I again

25:52

it's really maybe thing about the that how

25:54

religion is is and has happened I for

25:56

colleges is is that it embodied practice and

25:58

how memory can get stuck again. They'll

26:00

be stored on the body so

26:02

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every day at saks.com. Yeah,

26:33

thank you for for recounting that.

26:35

That's that. sounds amazing. Yeah, this

26:37

is definitely one for the. It's

26:40

it's that said be you know, almost

26:42

remembered and and documented as well. And

26:44

so I wondered if you could also

26:47

tell us about i'm vo Do as

26:49

a Religion And so you kind of

26:51

began with giving us a lesson already

26:53

and the differences between the term voodoo

26:55

and vote do so. I appreciate that

26:57

and I wondered I'm A I view

26:59

the just give us a bit about

27:02

it as a religion, you stay in

27:04

the book. There are many misconceptions about

27:06

it and intensity. Highly misunderstood answer. Could

27:08

you just give us sort of an

27:10

overview. So weekend or glick all

27:12

the on the same page understanding

27:14

as the religious and spiritual, you

27:17

know? Practice. Yeah thank

27:19

you so much on trailer to for a

27:21

minute listening and you want a quick next

27:23

a bit about he should go do. We.

27:26

Just need to understand at voting is about

27:28

ceiling. Vote. Who is about healing?

27:31

It's about lungs. It's about it.

27:33

It's about the ancestors. Ah,

27:35

It's about memories. Ah,

27:37

M I think about healing Unless

27:39

you think about people are taking

27:41

on an hour to gain natural

27:43

resources. And helping the body the. Mind

27:46

Soul on. And.

27:48

They're connecting with on the spirit

27:50

and the spiritual world both of

27:52

them west out west and Central

27:55

Africa and including the time indigenous

27:57

Americans at the time in the

27:59

Iraq and. We have remember

28:01

that the the first edition of People have.

28:03

An idea in Haiti ah that is

28:06

now at that it has now become

28:08

a them an amalgamation a combination of

28:10

these alleged litigation ah and and then

28:12

also you know the know about the

28:14

role of Catholicism in the tradition as

28:16

well. Now they have to weigh the

28:19

thing about the role of ask them

28:21

how that how that the path that

28:23

he adhesive. Oh do. They.

28:25

Are that there? Their lineages? I

28:27

said like that. talk about like

28:30

how people have a high their

28:32

African spirit on under Catholicism. So

28:34

for example St. Patrick's Day that

28:36

be the smartest path. Ah ah.

28:39

When. People are per hour of thing about the

28:41

Patrick's day, the battery like you know them, driver

28:43

snakes and all the stuff. When.

28:46

You go to the cabin sure if you

28:48

are correct or it's are talking about that

28:50

or. They're all the people

28:52

they're honoring. Dump a lot

28:55

that is the spirits up

28:57

on the surface spirit of

28:59

wisdom and I'm and though

29:01

the old been in spirits

29:03

ah and his on iconography

29:06

your that some of the

29:08

the. Think the he's not

29:10

a for like a show in like Snakes and

29:12

and Eight Ah so. There. Are

29:14

some could easily easy correlation see if

29:16

they patrick and on down below. And

29:19

so I thought about like they the way

29:22

that web site and with a tradition but

29:24

then there's also another term that did that.

29:26

Another way of thing about the role catholicism.

29:29

Especially. For. People

29:31

who study or and talk about

29:33

on the role of Congo influences that

29:35

that people who or where a Congolese

29:38

especially by the twelve and thirteen element

29:40

for the thirteenth century people were already

29:42

catholic of them. Have some people really

29:45

come in to Haiti already know the

29:47

catholicism is so again I'm bringing up

29:49

these two different distinctions of of

29:51

i'm I'm practicing and thing about the

29:54

raucous couples them because I know that

29:56

it's important know that there are many

29:58

passages of help. How our religion

30:01

and different had to religions had

30:03

had been in contact with low

30:05

do so Again I say that

30:07

vote you is about ancestors but

30:09

he'll a about love their it

30:11

also on an ethos. Of have

30:13

a a mode of understanding about

30:15

how you orient yourself of the

30:17

world at of not based on

30:19

individually numbered more of community. Ah

30:22

the the way of that they

30:24

are Frogger their their knowledge is

30:26

about how to see yourself see

30:28

yourself in connection with the community

30:30

and so ah of all all

30:32

the things I just said right

30:35

now the snippets of like really

30:37

good things about though do this

30:39

is very different than how I'm

30:41

european a year off. Answered imaginations

30:43

of though do have have been

30:45

and it because it's yes displaying

30:47

quit blankly and just matter. Family

30:49

is very anti black ah if

30:51

you don't on if you only

30:53

come from if I'm a christian

30:55

standpoint you're not going or stance

30:57

on like how they're at their

31:00

most multiple divinity that can impact

31:02

of that that the person and

31:04

on. And on and off opinion

31:06

about like their mother didn't neither still

31:08

a main did indeed been view that

31:10

like the that the main main god

31:12

five is the fact that. It's.

31:15

Very different thing pretty christianity I've installed

31:17

once a very different that that there

31:19

a way that Cristiana get compared to

31:21

go do on their the way that

31:23

they're the anti blackness act that com

31:25

that com then enter the way that

31:27

when people were talking about who they're

31:29

do that they do have a comparison

31:31

is over my work I make sure

31:33

that I try say that bow you

31:35

stand on it's own. That. Like

31:38

as I type of eat those either.

31:40

the sharing and and community and to

31:42

me oriented orientation ah the way that

31:44

people aren't big about the how to

31:47

raise a child. On.

31:49

How to how to address elder

31:52

than thing about elders spieler of

31:54

either boat orientations of of of

31:56

living on how do you think

31:59

about bearing the dad answer? earth

32:01

be again I'm I'm bringing these

32:03

men contests because. We

32:06

need some ganache that is a voted for

32:08

the their boat a perspective but also if

32:10

we take a boat you seriously as well

32:12

as well as and die for college a

32:14

fiercely the I understand how these religions down

32:16

on it's own and that with end of

32:19

an extradition their the body of there's a

32:21

body of work in a corpus of of

32:23

work that is really integral to like breaking

32:25

breaking down like how people see and orient

32:27

themselves in the world. So

32:30

I think that in a nutshell, that

32:32

that's the way they're shooting about, though

32:34

Do on. And the authors. You know

32:36

that historically. Shady. Had

32:38

been seen and have been

32:41

viewed as on. As

32:44

an. As.

32:46

Been Adam viewed as negative mostly because

32:49

of your because the fact that they

32:51

they beat the French. Ah and when

32:53

you are the first lap of the

32:55

public, when you are known for for

32:57

dismantling of white supremacy and and and

33:00

same that you are and same as

33:02

yours Humid and you're not a the

33:04

under the shield of a white The

33:06

friends of a White Supremacy a Our

33:08

tell my students and anyone with them.

33:11

I don't think that that now your

33:13

religion is going to be seen as

33:15

as bad as demonic. As as horrible

33:17

as not is not good. Know you're

33:19

like there were the narrative that gets

33:22

pushed because the fact that you won

33:24

again I would ask a question what

33:26

does it mean to be the first

33:28

will to be the first you're gonna

33:30

get scrutinize a lot of install. Historically

33:32

Haiti aren't very forgiving from defeating the

33:35

French and other be having a blockade

33:37

i'm from other European nations when they

33:39

started coming monday. sort of wonder if

33:41

their independence are and then all. we

33:43

also having to pay a billion dollars

33:46

in debt. Are to

33:48

France for winning For winning

33:50

Reagan no other nation had

33:53

to pay. Ah I'm Ah.

33:55

adapt. To. The.

33:57

Losing nation has no other. Never

34:00

had a pity. Bring. Bird Bird

34:02

Bird. The getting their independence. To.

34:05

The Truth: Adidas we're starting

34:07

was crying A nation. And.

34:10

Crippling a nation or they're all on their own.

34:12

Independent. America, Europeans have.and

34:14

again United States meeting up in relation

34:16

between that have faith in Haiti United

34:19

States have benefited from Haiti. Penfold.

34:22

Of you, think about the Louisiana Purchase. My

34:25

thing but the role of Louisiana

34:27

as N N and that that

34:29

the number of a southern and

34:31

Caribbean connections visit by the Us

34:33

off you pay. It will be

34:35

all funny thing about like the

34:37

Us occupation in Haiti from I

34:39

think it's in the Ninety Third

34:41

Fourth Dog and I'm I'm giving

34:43

and for providing some this historical

34:45

context can't that about the Us

34:47

impact on Haiti, the use of

34:49

minerals and N N and people

34:51

and and on our resources That

34:53

both natural resources to have been

34:55

stripped from Haiti to benefit the

34:57

European nations? Ah, these are things

35:00

that. We. I understand that when

35:02

we think by Haiti as it is today,

35:04

they're the reason why had look the way

35:06

it does because of the fact that ah.

35:09

Ah, Hey. Katie in

35:11

the my in the eyes of European nations have never

35:14

met to be great. If

35:16

then it it benefits everybody. Yeah, Yeah,

35:19

no, definitely the ah thank you

35:21

for that that. Ah,

35:23

And three into Voodoo as a

35:25

religion and also a piece of

35:27

history. Ah, and I think it's

35:29

important as you said to to

35:31

think about Vote Who as a

35:33

complex and very rich religion, you

35:35

know that that stands on it's

35:37

own and you can see. Also,

35:39

like throughout your buck you discuss

35:41

different ceremonies and different divinities as

35:43

well. I'm and in your book

35:45

you Aussie use the term i'm

35:47

Spiritual though that you know really

35:50

ties the book altogether. And I'm

35:52

gonna quote you because. You define

35:54

it as quote The Performative Use

35:56

a fashion to unify practitioners and

35:58

connect with the spirits. If I

36:00

wondered if you could tell us more about this

36:02

concept of Spiritual Vogue and how you're using it

36:04

in the book? He at

36:06

ray and our the my bag

36:09

like Uma with birch of those.

36:11

So initially. I. Was really

36:13

thinking about how to think

36:15

about this interactive framework. Ah,

36:18

That centers across the being seen through

36:21

draft touch a new a movement and

36:23

how the speaks to how to communicate

36:25

with practitioner than the i have a

36:27

like be a doormat practices and co.

36:31

thinking. About do a full load. I

36:33

was really thinking about the name is

36:35

I initially of why the call this

36:37

this term spiritual catalog and I still

36:39

think about how to use that term

36:42

on about how people are moving and

36:44

walking and so. Ah, When.

36:46

I think what the worth spirit I'm thinking.

36:48

About. Vs

36:51

insisting that religion is like how this

36:54

how the given these play a central

36:56

role in on and and haven't accomplished

36:58

with people and taking when people say

37:00

that that the spirit speak to speak

37:02

to them I have added religious that

37:04

he scholar and not going oh is

37:06

that really what's happening? Is there like

37:08

just more of like is it about

37:10

power and agency and add is a

37:12

signal real about i'm I'm not doing

37:14

that. I think that this is that

37:16

this is the turn of all of

37:18

a way that you know I'm number

37:20

village. They. Scored like to put

37:22

pull away and had like a

37:25

political objective understanding about religion and

37:27

that really gets back. Really bomb.

37:30

On. It

37:32

really makes the understanding about how

37:34

people are living. It.

37:37

Within the world very shallow. Like for example,

37:39

when someone says it they scored a touchdown

37:41

and then they say they have been God

37:43

and God help them. No one bats an

37:45

eye. But. When people say you

37:47

know the God spoke to me they said I

37:50

need to do right and by the to work

37:52

better and three my wife better and N N

37:54

F get a better job. He looks like there's

37:56

some people like it Like question of what? That

37:58

really the spirit. He didn't have

38:01

a psychological breakdown. Is this something that

38:03

it's happening your mental psyche and I'm

38:05

like no, I'm not going to do

38:07

that and by not doing that, I

38:10

really got a chance. I came from

38:12

a African I'm Lynn. That release. On

38:15

challenges and and in his thinks about

38:18

their ways out. Be black the been

38:20

these have impacted the haven't acted black

38:22

people and for though that tracks the

38:24

village tradition so that's where the spirit

38:27

com, then it's it's It's saying that

38:29

that spirit. Put the spear and

38:31

the black The beneath play a

38:33

role in how people are are

38:36

are moving it within the with

38:38

the live the world Okay now

38:40

lifting about the word both on

38:43

and this is coming from can

38:45

only at Afrikaners perspective but also

38:47

black clear on a person, black

38:50

queer perspective and and and queer

38:52

queer studies perspective. I was really

38:54

interested in the ways in which

38:57

the diaspora has impacted of though

38:59

do. And I

39:01

noticed that when people are

39:03

getting practitioners ah were getting

39:05

taken over by spirit on

39:07

ecstasy and some that possession

39:09

practices I actually saw. I'm

39:11

a couple times in I'm

39:14

in both Haiti and the

39:16

diaspora that people. Were sort of both.

39:18

During possesses Now by the way, What's

39:21

Happening? And so I was

39:23

really interested in ah the role

39:26

of both of as like you

39:28

know hogan and movement of Marlin

39:30

Bally's work about but cleaned up

39:32

and pumps ah was very influential

39:34

for me to think about the

39:37

ballroom seen in these regions. The.

39:40

Future Think about how

39:42

Black Queer studies his

39:45

last days blacks were

39:47

study is ah ah.

39:50

Ah, Is a black as

39:52

if it with her lap or studies is

39:55

black Studies and and black were studies is

39:57

clear study that you just is on. And

40:00

Co. both. Help me think about the

40:02

role of fashion, the role of. A

40:05

been seen and on the way that

40:08

clear people put have played an integral

40:10

role in in bow do so again

40:12

I thought about like this idea about

40:14

rough patch and movement this really shipping

40:17

so far as they get about the

40:19

role of material culture and idea of

40:21

what had been seeing touched that that

40:23

that the different senses with the not

40:26

sensational religion thing about Sally promised work

40:28

I'm so what is. What? Is

40:30

the materials when is what as the

40:33

thing that use a dorm adorned somebody

40:35

and with in mumble. Mode Home.

40:38

Ah she has

40:40

on. She. Has

40:42

changed The read them in

40:44

a voter stanley again. opinion

40:46

about in individual, unique and

40:48

innovation. Total innovation the happened

40:51

in Bow Do. So.

40:53

I want everyone to imagine. There

40:56

being a bowtie ceremony the citizen

40:58

is don't have my unable to

41:00

cut but it's just so dope

41:02

and. Like say they were in.

41:05

A scam money for Get it

41:07

Now Get A is a spirit

41:09

of life, death and sex so

41:11

his colors are ah guinea. This

41:13

is my my third time this.

41:16

Get. Industrial light, Deafness, sex and

41:18

it is the spirit of like

41:20

that the that guy but the

41:23

cemetery so you usually see get

41:25

it in a black top hat

41:27

us to anti ah I'm and

41:30

ah and ah he looks like.

41:33

Like This. I'm. A

41:36

Lego a play on our

41:38

Friends are areas Aristotle Aristocracy

41:40

on and so when women

41:43

usually wear dresses for I'm.

41:46

Ah, Get a t but

41:48

we usually wear colored a purple

41:50

and bull and black and white

41:52

and that is usually what you

41:54

just were on like the deck

41:56

that use it as were that.

42:00

The their money so. In.

42:03

A boat a ceremony use easy

42:05

to see people were the colors.

42:07

Live in Mumbai modes home. She

42:09

thought that by is wearing white

42:12

and I'm. Why is that?

42:14

The universe of holler About people were to represent

42:16

all the spirit. And so

42:18

usually in a boat if their money

42:20

it is the drumming, singing and dancing

42:22

that dictate the start with thoughts of

42:24

the other other voters. Germany or Mama

42:26

Mode does like you. There will be

42:28

the goods, pecking order, what you call

42:31

on the different spirits. oh you're calling

42:33

the raw Diet the Roddick spirit, your

42:35

column, pets or spirit. Ah you calm

42:37

and nago spirit. And then when it

42:39

comes to get day instead of like

42:41

it being like the drumming bag that

42:43

that stop forgettable break Mumble Mode and

42:45

harassing her communities will go through. That

42:48

the change your own change into another draft

42:50

and then come out of even more elaborate

42:52

draft though this so member i just thought

42:54

at the it will be like white and

42:57

the now she had a good the beautiful

42:59

black an ad and purple like flamboyant resin.

43:01

People are like who ah oh my god

43:04

was can do as you can do

43:06

this for now for over twenty years the

43:08

now people are expect like what is it

43:10

was it like a now a moment of

43:12

reveal going what are people that which it

43:15

were this time and so. Seven.

43:18

Hundred Imagine like. When. She

43:20

come down and eat as either the

43:22

stairs in the basement of out of

43:24

my Medicare Massachusetts with which is a

43:26

suburb of Boston. Or. If

43:29

it's like this long for possession walk and

43:31

is optimal Haiti and that for her others

43:33

by his people are watching they're experiencing they're

43:35

sitting with it's a better bike fuck about

43:38

the catwalk odd because it's this is there

43:40

the more with a practitioner are looking at

43:42

transmitter they are presenting themselves in the most

43:44

dignified way and then that the the they

43:47

are honoring the spirit and then also like

43:49

the people are watching their like wow this

43:51

is what a boat is down when i

43:53

support the look like still beautiful on i

43:56

feel of the spirits are here. ah

43:58

and so she changed this rhythm,

44:00

this normal rhythm of the starts

44:02

and stops of the vote of

44:04

Vodu by centering the role of

44:06

fashion. I just thought that that

44:09

was so great. And again, what

44:11

I love about my work is

44:13

that it's applicable to other religious

44:15

traditions like Brazilian Condembele, like Cuban

44:17

Santeria, that have these beautifying elements

44:21

of fashion and clothing that's

44:23

just in the religious tradition.

44:25

So it's my hope that

44:27

people can understand the religious

44:29

dynamism of fashion and how that

44:31

can relate to their particular

44:34

work. And within

44:37

Spiritual Vogue, I was

44:39

hoping to... No, no. Within

44:41

Spiritual Vogue, I was examining

44:45

how this

44:48

idea about fashion can target

44:50

major somatic elements of race,

44:52

gender, and sexuality, and also

44:54

thinking about late ideas about

44:56

labor and spiritual embodiment, and

44:58

also how we could think

45:00

about visions and dreams.

45:03

And within Vogue and the

45:08

understanding of Vogue, people

45:10

have dreams with the spirits. And

45:13

you know what the particular spirit, because of the

45:15

way that the spirit is dressed, what they're saying,

45:18

what color that they have on.

45:21

And so fashion, even in the

45:23

dream-like space, is very important. So

45:25

I'm thinking about the physical space,

45:27

the metaphysical space, and

45:30

how fashion has centered a role in that. Yeah,

45:34

thank you for that. And so you've talked

45:36

a bit about Mambo Mode, so you gave

45:38

us your... how you came

45:41

to the work and your concept

45:43

that's framing the book. You've interwoven

45:45

Mambo Mode throughout those answers, but

45:47

I wanted to focus on her

45:49

specifically with a question. And especially

45:53

because you said the book is about

45:55

a singular religious figure.

45:58

And so she plays the central role

46:01

in the book as well. And she

46:03

leads the Sibudu community

46:05

in Boston and it's transnational

46:07

in Jacque-Mél, Haiti. And

46:09

as you just talked about, she uses clothing

46:11

in distinct ways. And so I wondered if

46:13

you could talk about like who was Manbo

46:16

Mode and if you want to elaborate

46:19

on her community, how

46:21

she used clothing in her religious practice

46:23

and you know, why you would,

46:26

like what does, why you would focus

46:28

I guess on a singular figure. Yeah. So

46:30

I want to make sure I say this that although

46:32

I focus in the book,

46:34

I focus on Manbo Mode as a central figure.

46:37

I, what I want, I also

46:40

interwoven with my over

46:43

decades worth of experience in being in

46:45

the voted, in voting ceremonies in the

46:47

voted, many different voted communities. So

46:50

what I was, I was elaborating

46:52

that Mama Mode is a central thing for us to

46:55

think about as a case study. But

46:57

what I was also showing is that she is

46:59

not the end all be all. This is a

47:01

way of thinking about Vodou, but

47:03

there's many other homes that I've seen

47:06

that she made, that they do something

47:08

just a bit different. Again, Mama Mode

47:10

lives in, has a

47:12

home in Boston, Massachusetts, as well as

47:14

Jacque-Mél, Haiti. Jacque-Mél, Haiti is about

47:16

three hours from Port-au-Prince, South to South.

47:19

So like the way that the North does

47:21

Vodou is very different from the South. The

47:23

way that the South rural does, does Vodou

47:25

is different from urban

47:27

areas. So we need to think about time, energy, like

47:31

the length of the religious practice, and

47:34

as well as people's own ancestors. Mama

47:37

Mode, her home is called

47:39

Société Nago. And

47:42

that is, her home is under

47:45

the guise and the instructions and guidance of

47:48

the spirit of Vodou. Although all the spirits

47:50

represent Vodou, there's still people that have like

47:52

more special affinities. So like I've been to,

47:55

like for Mama Mode, her home is for

47:57

Ogu and that's a god of war. And

48:00

there are people that their home is

48:02

run by the Gidde family. So like,

48:04

you know, the spirit of life, death,

48:06

and sex. That orients how you move

48:09

just very differently. So,

48:11

again, I hope that people see is that

48:14

I was very mindful about

48:16

saying mama moe is part of

48:19

a large spectrum

48:22

of vodu aesthetics. I

48:25

remember Dana Rush called it a

48:28

vodu vortex where things get put inside

48:31

into vodu. But

48:34

again, when you read the book, you know

48:36

it's a case study, but I also showcase

48:38

them like, okay, this is how mama moe

48:40

does it. I've been to other

48:42

ceremonies where this is not the only

48:44

way. So what I was trying to

48:46

showcase is that there is uniqueness and

48:48

dynamism in vodu. And people are coming

48:50

at it in very unique ways. Now,

48:53

when people hear this, I

48:55

sometimes feel like there's someone that's going to be out

48:58

there that's going to be like, oh, this is a

49:00

free range of doing vodu. No, absolutely not. And

49:02

what I was trying to show about clothing is

49:04

that there's ways to think about

49:07

clothing, but there's still like set

49:10

rules and regulations. For example, I

49:12

just told you about Gidde, and

49:14

I told you that his colors

49:17

are black and

49:19

purple and white. There's another

49:21

spirit named Kuzinazaka, and

49:24

that's the spirit of agriculture and

49:26

farmer and farmer, and like a

49:28

farmer agriculture and the spirit of abundance.

49:30

Okay. His

49:32

type of clothing is more of like cotton, plaid,

49:37

denim. He's a farmer. So you're

49:39

not going to give Gidde

49:43

farming clothes or farming materials to represent the

49:45

spirit because that's now, that's a fashion faux

49:48

pas, and that's a religious faux pas. So

49:50

again, I want to make sure that like

49:52

there's some uniqueness to how you can do

49:54

the religious tradition, but like you

49:57

don't get it twisted that you know you can just

49:59

dip and dabble and like say, okay, the spirits

50:01

can do, can want this type of material and it

50:03

doesn't matter what they want. They just, they're just happy

50:05

we're there. No, no, no. If you do that, if

50:07

you do that stuff wrong, like the spirits will not,

50:10

will not come. So there's still rules and regulations about

50:12

how to do this type of work. So

50:16

when you ask me who Mambo Mode is, Mambo

50:18

Mode again is a voted practitioner.

50:21

And her name is her full name is Mambo

50:23

Marie Mode Evans. And she

50:26

has, she is in her and it's

50:28

so funny because in the book, I don't really give

50:30

her name, but her age, I want you to think

50:32

about like, she's in her sixties because again, she, she

50:35

was like, I don't know if anyone's talked to like

50:37

middle age or senior black women. It's hard for you

50:39

to, for them to pin down the age. So she

50:41

was like, it's not cool. Gila Jumue was my age.

50:43

Don't ask me that fucking question. So

50:47

but just think about she's in a minute and 60. She came to

50:49

the United States in the

50:51

eight, in the eighties looking for, you

50:53

know, for education and an embedment for,

50:55

for her, for herself and her children.

50:58

She has three kids and

51:02

she, she has

51:04

always been, had affinity

51:06

with the, with the Vodu spirits and

51:08

the, and the connection

51:10

with the Vodu spirits. And she's been trained

51:12

by her spiritual mother about how to practice

51:16

Vodu. Now in the book,

51:18

I talk about the Genesis. That's like in my

51:20

chapter one, I talk about the Genesis

51:22

of Mambo mode and how

51:24

she had dreams for different spirits

51:27

like G'day. And there's another spirit

51:29

named Edelie Giroudge,

51:31

Edelie with the red eyes, that's

51:33

intense warrior spirit.

51:36

But also known

51:38

as like having red eyes, fierce,

51:41

fierce woman that had told her that

51:43

in, in her dream that she needed

51:45

to do better about the way that

51:47

she dressed and the way that she

51:49

approached herself in Vodu and that she

51:51

needs to be initiated. Now you're

51:54

going to hear me talk about initiation. I

51:56

want to, I also want for those that

51:58

are listening to know that initiation and

52:00

initiation practices are one

52:02

of the things that happens

52:05

in VODU, but not everybody gets

52:07

initiated. There are people that have

52:09

ancestral lineage, that their grandparents, their

52:11

great-grandparents have passed down the VODU

52:13

knowledge to them, and so they

52:15

don't do initiation rights. And

52:18

there's people that go through initial initially in

52:20

this toy rights to regain

52:22

knowledge, to reclaim knowledge, or to say that

52:24

this is a way that they want to

52:26

stabilize themselves and showcase that they are within

52:30

an affiliation of VODU. So

52:34

again, it depends on what trajectory that you

52:36

are going through. So for

52:39

Mamod, she went through an initial initiative rights

52:42

as Mambo Asogwe, so

52:45

it's like the head Mambo, you

52:50

have all the sendees and powers

52:52

and toolage to of

52:54

being a head Mambo. Mambo

52:56

means female practitioner. So

52:59

like I said, she's had

53:01

dreams of the spirit, telling

53:06

her she needs to do better, and so in

53:08

the early 90s, she

53:10

had a dream that

53:12

she should be initiated, and

53:15

that she should dress better.

53:19

So in the earlier chapters, I talk

53:21

about how Gadeh came

53:24

to her in a dream and presented her, and told

53:26

her to dress up well for the

53:28

spirit, and showed

53:30

her how he, for the next

53:33

ceremony that was happening for

53:35

her, that she needs to wear his

53:37

clothes, and that was a suit and tie. And

53:40

then so one of the vivid

53:42

stories that she told me was that

53:44

she went to the men's warehouse in

53:46

Cambridge, Massachusetts, and asked

53:49

the tailor to dress her up,

53:52

or size her up for a suit and

53:55

tie for the, Just

54:01

sorry. She went to a

54:03

tailor and she told the tailor she wanted to be sized for

54:05

her suit. And they went back and

54:07

forth because in this case the tailor was

54:09

telling her that he only made suits for

54:11

men. She's like, listen. And

54:14

in her head she couldn't tell him this. That

54:17

the spirits want what the spirits want. But

54:19

I need this suit. You're going to do

54:21

this for me. And today I'm a man

54:23

so size me up. So what

54:26

I loved about this

54:28

conversation is that it

54:30

didn't matter what the outside world is. She

54:32

had to do things to honor the spirits

54:34

because the spirits were demanding her to dress

54:37

up. And

54:39

what she was doing, and

54:41

I told Sedd this earlier,

54:43

that normally for women, most

54:45

women when they honor

54:47

G'day or any type of voting ceremony,

54:49

they usually wear dresses. And

54:51

again, I was thinking about the gender dynamics. Most women are

54:53

in dresses. And even if

54:56

you're a queer woman or a masculine

54:58

woman, most

55:00

of the times for the

55:02

ceremonies you're still in a

55:04

dress to honor the spirits. But

55:06

for Mambo Mo to wear a suit and

55:09

tie back in the 90s, this

55:11

again, I'm going to talk about spiritual

55:13

innovation, she plays on gender

55:16

and masculinity. And that is

55:18

something, again, I've been to so many ceremonies. I have never

55:21

seen a

55:23

voted practitioner, a female voted

55:25

practitioner wear men's clothing. And

55:29

again, it's not saying it hasn't been done. But

55:31

again, I'm trying to make

55:33

sure, I don't want them to go, well, I've seen this.

55:35

Okay, that's great. What I'm trying to

55:37

say is that this is rare. It's

55:40

rare for women to do that play

55:42

on wearing

55:46

masculine clothing or men's clothing

55:48

for ceremony. And so she

55:50

still fits into the voodoo

55:52

tradition because she's still wearing

55:54

clothes for Gere. That's

55:56

part of his suit and tie. But again, the way

55:59

that she plays on the women's clothing, plays on gender was

56:01

so, it's so unique. And it's, again,

56:03

it's rare in Voda community. So

56:06

again, I'm trying to showcase the uniqueness. And

56:09

again, like I talk about this too, Mambo

56:12

Mode has many degrees. And

56:14

I, hopefully, if anyone

56:17

that's listening to me knows that

56:19

like, when I found Nigerian, I'm really Nigerian.

56:23

A lot of us that are first gen

56:25

Nigerian or even part of the

56:28

Caribbean, but let me speak to my journey

56:30

for ourselves, for my sake, is that you're either

56:32

a doctor, a lawyer, engineer, and if you're not

56:34

that, you're a failure. So, and

56:36

the way that we see each other and we talk

56:38

to people, it's like we have degrees. So she, like,

56:40

you know, when I, like, so Reagan,

56:42

if I talked to you, I'm like, oh Reagan, like, so

56:45

what's your name? And you'll say, you know, Reagan.

56:47

And I'm like, what's cool that you go to

56:49

Reagan? Like, that's just how we orient ourselves. So

56:51

when Mambo Mode talked about all the degrees she

56:54

had, I was like, yeah, she made Naja sense

56:56

to me. So,

56:58

so she used her, so when

57:01

the spirit was telling her to dress up and

57:03

make her own clothes, she had,

57:07

she's using her fashion degree to

57:10

connect with the spirit. So again, I'm

57:13

hoping that people can see that

57:16

not only that I found that she

57:18

to be very unique and

57:22

different, but I also was attempting

57:24

to get, I also wanted

57:27

to showcase what does it

57:29

mean to think about Haitians

57:31

and Haitian people that are

57:33

middle-class versus thinking about vodu solely

57:36

being for people that are for the poor.

57:39

Because there is this misunderstanding

57:43

that vodu is only for poor

57:45

people. And again, if we

57:48

don't understand Haiti's history,

57:52

the stripping of the wealth, then we'll

57:54

miss out on that

57:56

this is not, that this is a, this

57:58

is a, political and

58:01

economic disenfranchisement that's been happening

58:03

to Haiti. That's not all Haitians.

58:06

There are Haitians that have money. So

58:09

we're watching, I really wanted to showcase

58:11

what happens when people do have money

58:13

and how people use that money. So

58:15

I noticed that when I was showcasing my

58:18

work earlier, early on to different people,

58:20

there's a way that some

58:23

scholars were kept saying that, oh, mama mode,

58:25

as well as the number of black people

58:27

were a part of conspicuous consumption and any

58:29

sociologist will know that that's a very, I

58:31

think it's a very horrible way of thinking

58:33

about black people because

58:35

it's like, oh, they're always just

58:37

buying things and even at the

58:40

stake of them eating or whatever, they have to just buy things.

58:42

And it's like, what? No, like

58:44

people are making conscious decisions. So again,

58:46

mama mode is middle class. She got

58:48

two houses. And I really

58:51

wanted to show a different perspective and

58:53

understanding of black

58:55

people and the diversity of black people. Again,

58:58

this is very distinct from Cara

59:01

McCarthy Brown's Mama Lola, where

59:04

poverty is a reality. But

59:06

again, I'm like, Mama Lola got her own shit.

59:08

She got her own house, own car. She

59:11

got two jobs. That

59:14

song, I-N-D-E-P-E-N-T-E-N-T. Do you know that?

59:16

I really like that was like

59:18

my song that I had for

59:20

her. So

59:24

again, when we think about the

59:26

role of fashion and the way that she's changed

59:29

this rhythm with the role of fashion in her

59:31

orientation, now she's been perfecting this for over 30

59:33

years. She's had different

59:35

homes. She's

59:41

beautified her home in Jacques Mel, invited people

59:43

from all over the world to come to

59:45

her vote to stand money. And another thing

59:47

about her that I think is very unique is that

59:49

her practitioners, they're also

59:51

different people. They're doctors and lawyers or

59:54

engineers. They are nurses. They

59:56

are carpenters. They are teachers. They

1:00:00

are plumbers. Like they have many

1:00:02

different jobs. And they

1:00:04

also, some of the,

1:00:10

the way that mom would have spread

1:00:12

throughout the diaspora, I can

1:00:14

now go to a spiritual home in

1:00:16

Brooklyn, New York, in New Jersey, and

1:00:18

even in like Port-au-Prince, Haiti. And I

1:00:21

can tell someone has been watching mom

1:00:23

mode because of her uniqueness in the

1:00:25

dress that she's made. So she has

1:00:27

a unique dress that she stylized and

1:00:29

she has a community of seamstresses

1:00:33

that showcases her types of

1:00:35

dresses. So it's

1:00:37

not only her that's not part of

1:00:40

the special sense, it's her community.

1:00:42

So she's also making dresses for 30 to 40 people

1:00:47

where 300 people are coming to

1:00:49

the ceremony. It could be that grand, where 80

1:00:51

people are in the ceremony. So

1:00:54

making those types of dresses, saving

1:00:56

up money and having other people buy into

1:00:58

getting those dresses. This is also something I'll

1:01:00

think about the role of labor and economics

1:01:03

in the role of dresses and dress

1:01:06

production. So

1:01:10

lastly, I wanna bring out that not only, again,

1:01:12

she's educated, she has dreams of the spirits. She

1:01:15

has to think about the members

1:01:17

of her spiritual home and

1:01:20

she is, her influence and her

1:01:23

dress influence has

1:01:25

spread. She also

1:01:27

has a huge online platform where

1:01:29

hundreds of thousands of people have

1:01:31

watched her ceremonies online via YouTube,

1:01:35

Instagram, Twitter, and people have a

1:01:37

website of

1:01:39

her spiritual home. So

1:01:41

I want to make sure that people

1:01:43

know that there is a national and

1:01:46

international presence of momo. Therefore, I have

1:01:48

dubbed her to be the Beyonce of

1:01:50

Haitian Vodou because

1:01:52

of the way that her influence has

1:01:54

spread. Okay,

1:02:03

great. So thank you so

1:02:05

much for that answer

1:02:07

about Monbo Maude and her community. I

1:02:10

really, I thought she was such a dynamic

1:02:12

character and she just jumps off the page

1:02:14

every time you talk about her and your

1:02:16

interactions with her. And

1:02:18

I wanted to move on to how

1:02:20

you mentioned money and you said earlier

1:02:22

in your answers, you know, you like

1:02:24

money. So, and you just mentioned Kozen

1:02:26

as a spirit. And

1:02:29

so it seemed like practitioners and leaders exert

1:02:32

quite a bit of like labor and economic

1:02:34

resources to maintain their religious community.

1:02:37

And I thought it was fascinating that one

1:02:39

of the spirits called Kozen aided Monbo Maude

1:02:42

in pursuing compensation for

1:02:45

her services. So

1:02:47

it seemed like the spirits themselves

1:02:49

were aware of these matters. And

1:02:52

so how are people negotiating economic

1:02:54

and like the work and labor

1:02:56

aspects of Vodou to sustain the

1:02:58

religion and the community? Yeah, you

1:03:00

know, I want to give

1:03:02

a shout out a shout out and get some credit to

1:03:04

Dr. Anthea Butler,

1:03:07

who is at the University of

1:03:09

Pennsylvania. Because one of my earlier conversations

1:03:12

with money

1:03:14

and labor, she was asked, she's

1:03:16

like, you know, where is the money coming from?

1:03:19

Like what's happening? And then I

1:03:21

was like, I can

1:03:23

do this. Because again, for me that

1:03:25

like really love money, I was I

1:03:27

was watching how mambo mode, especially with

1:03:29

two big communities has

1:03:31

to manage her own livelihood and

1:03:33

her own cost as a

1:03:36

parent and someone that has children

1:03:38

in her own livelihood. And then

1:03:40

also thinking about her spiritual children

1:03:42

and making sure that for the

1:03:44

ceremonies, these ceremonies can house thousands

1:03:46

upon thousands of dollars. It's

1:03:49

like, how do you save? Like how

1:03:51

do you prepare for like the like

1:03:53

the different types of meals that are

1:03:55

needed for the spirit? How are you

1:03:58

shipping the religious materials from

1:04:00

Haiti to the United States. And then from the United

1:04:02

States to Haiti, it

1:04:04

requires a team, it requires a number

1:04:06

of organizations, and also requires people that

1:04:08

you trust in the community that can

1:04:10

handle the money. So when

1:04:12

we talk about the exhausted amount of

1:04:15

labor and economics that is needed, you

1:04:17

need a whole squad. And

1:04:20

so again, I keep talking about how Mama voted

1:04:22

beyond the vote of Vodou. When we think about

1:04:24

Beyonce, and Beyonce has a beautiful team, and that's

1:04:26

the reason why she's able to do amazing

1:04:29

feats and think about

1:04:31

the different types of dynasm of her

1:04:33

performances. And I think that's

1:04:35

what Mama Mode is doing. Like she has

1:04:37

people that are, again, seamstress that are creating

1:04:40

the dress. She has people that are maintaining

1:04:43

the home in Jacques-Mélle, Haiti, while she's

1:04:45

not there. And then different

1:04:47

people in Boston that are maintaining

1:04:49

the space. And so I talk about,

1:04:51

this is in my chapter, my third chapter

1:04:53

of my book, where I talk about

1:04:55

the intricacies of the different types

1:04:58

of labor. And I'm very

1:05:00

heavily inspired by Judith Calvary's work on

1:05:02

labor, called Labor of Faith. And

1:05:05

her work is dealing with Pentecostalism,

1:05:07

but the

1:05:09

amount of labor that is

1:05:11

in within Vodou communities is

1:05:14

just as unique to think about how there

1:05:17

is very different types of labor, of

1:05:21

aesthetic labor, the type of, the pair

1:05:23

in the clothes, the emotional labor, like how

1:05:25

people are dealing with day-to-day actions. Mama

1:05:27

Mode is putting out fires to

1:05:32

make sure that the community as

1:05:35

well, like people have arguments every day, or

1:05:38

every day, but like, different kinds of arguments or

1:05:40

tensions within the community. And then

1:05:43

there's also intimate labor.

1:05:47

And I'm thinking about how people are, the

1:05:49

type of care that comes in, like the in

1:05:51

and out of ceremonies, when people are coming out

1:05:53

of possessions, that their possession can be

1:05:57

very hard and tense on the body. So how

1:05:59

do people call? the head, fixing the

1:06:01

head wrap, making sure that people are okay,

1:06:03

laughing with people and understanding like where people

1:06:05

are coming from. Okay, like if this person

1:06:07

is one person is getting

1:06:09

taken over, are they more flamboyant and

1:06:12

expressive? Are they more reserved? But either way, you

1:06:14

still have to know how to take care of

1:06:17

the body, the physical body

1:06:19

when someone

1:06:22

is moving in and out of possession. So

1:06:24

that's when we talk about the labor, this

1:06:27

is so

1:06:32

intentional about how people

1:06:34

are very

1:06:36

concerned about the finances as

1:06:38

well as the people relationship

1:06:40

that's happening. And in

1:06:43

religious studies, labor is

1:06:45

not talked about enough

1:06:47

about how people are doing these religious

1:06:50

works. And so this is where I

1:06:52

leaned on a lot of my like,

1:06:54

some economic understandings about about money and

1:06:56

balancing money. And that

1:07:00

was very helpful. So again, really

1:07:02

having an interdisciplinary method to

1:07:04

approach approach this work was

1:07:07

very helpful. And again, when you talk about

1:07:09

Kuz and Azaka, asking

1:07:13

mama mode or demanding mama mode get

1:07:15

paid for her services. We're

1:07:17

again, we're seeing that that the spirits

1:07:19

are really serious about having

1:07:22

practitioners to

1:07:25

understand that the that the spiritual work they're doing

1:07:27

is work, this is labor, this is a job,

1:07:29

and you should get paid for that. And also

1:07:32

the role of money, money is energy, money is

1:07:34

exchange, money is a way that you put into,

1:07:36

if you want something spiritually

1:07:38

done, you need to pay for it.

1:07:40

So and that's part part of the

1:07:43

energy exchange that is happening. Yeah,

1:07:47

I like that that description that money

1:07:49

is an energy exchange, that that's something

1:07:51

to think about and hold on to,

1:07:53

I think in our in our own

1:07:55

daily lives. And so I

1:07:57

wanted to ask you a question about doing the research.

1:08:00

for the book. You

1:08:02

mentioned that you did interviews and participant

1:08:04

observation and you just told us that

1:08:08

you participated in over 300 ceremonies

1:08:11

over this extended period

1:08:13

of time that you've been studying VODU.

1:08:16

And so you also have these like

1:08:18

stunning photographs throughout the book and I

1:08:20

think you took the photograph on the

1:08:22

cover and you did at

1:08:25

least 60 interviews that you conducted. So I wondered

1:08:27

if you could talk about the research and you

1:08:29

also mentioned not

1:08:32

being initiated as a

1:08:35

particular kind of identity if you will, a particular

1:08:37

kind of status in a religious community as a

1:08:39

researcher. So I wonder if you could talk about

1:08:41

that for us. Yeah, thank you

1:08:43

so much because I think that the ways

1:08:46

that we get into the work, the methods

1:08:48

and the practice that we get into the

1:08:50

work is very, very important as to how

1:08:52

we come out, we

1:08:54

come and talk about these religious

1:08:59

understandings. And

1:09:01

I think as scholars and especially scholars who

1:09:05

study the religions of the African diaspora,

1:09:08

it's important to know like where people,

1:09:10

their stance is at as well as

1:09:12

like how people are approaching this particular

1:09:15

field. And I was very intentional

1:09:18

about, I'm gonna start thinking

1:09:20

about the role of not

1:09:22

being initiated because

1:09:26

although that could have been a thing,

1:09:30

I was asked to get initiated many

1:09:32

times by different,

1:09:34

not even just in my most

1:09:36

homes, but in other spiritual homes.

1:09:40

I was very adamant about

1:09:44

having some boundaries

1:09:47

with the people in

1:09:50

this in the spaces

1:09:55

that I studied. And

1:09:57

I think, sorry, I wanted to have

1:09:59

some boundaries. with the

1:10:01

people and the spaces that I study.

1:10:04

And I think it's important because I

1:10:07

noticed that this is when I'm going to

1:10:09

some of the conferences, I'm

1:10:11

thinking about the American Academy of Religion

1:10:13

and the American Anthropological Association. When

1:10:16

I would go to these conferences

1:10:20

and I would tell them when I'm studying, some people

1:10:22

were asking me whether I'm an initiator or not. When

1:10:24

I said no, they were like, oh. And

1:10:27

it's almost as if you're not a serious

1:10:29

scholar in African diasporic religions when you're not

1:10:31

initiated. Now, obviously this is not everybody, but

1:10:33

this is what was happening to me when

1:10:35

I was going into these spaces. And

1:10:38

I didn't like that. And so there

1:10:40

are people that are scholar practitioner and

1:10:43

that's wonderful, that's fine. But what

1:10:45

I was hoping to showcase in this book is that

1:10:47

that is not the only way to study African

1:10:49

diasporic religions. And that for

1:10:51

me, that's something that's not initiated, that you

1:10:53

can do an exemplary

1:10:56

work in

1:10:58

African diasporic religions by thinking about

1:11:00

public facing spaces, without

1:11:02

going into the entrapment of like,

1:11:04

what's happening with the initiates

1:11:07

and the secret, the secrecy and falling

1:11:09

into this voyeuristic trap. I did not

1:11:11

want to be a voyeur

1:11:14

in these black religious spaces. It was

1:11:16

so important for me to not perpetuate

1:11:19

that anthropological

1:11:21

gaze of voyeur as

1:11:24

a black scholar studying black religion. And

1:11:26

so for me, having that boundary

1:11:28

was something that was very important

1:11:31

for me. And I think that

1:11:33

for scholars who

1:11:35

are interested in African diasporic religions to see

1:11:38

again, that there is many ways of doing

1:11:40

this religious tradition. I

1:11:42

also had some of my students when

1:11:45

I taught at the university, as I teach

1:11:47

at the University of Miami, and

1:11:50

as like some of the class I've taught at Penn

1:11:52

and Princeton, when people were

1:11:55

interested in Haitian religion and

1:11:58

Brazilian contemplate and sense of religion. and human centoria.

1:12:01

I had students come up to me

1:12:03

like, yeah, I'm really interested in studying

1:12:05

this, but you know, I'm thinking about

1:12:07

when I actually get initiated. And I'm

1:12:09

like, who told you this? Where did

1:12:11

you get this from? And so I

1:12:14

want to showcase my book and my work to say

1:12:16

like, no, this is how you can do this work.

1:12:19

Here's how we can think about public-facing work and

1:12:21

public ceremonies.

1:12:25

And also the amount of time, again,

1:12:27

I spent over a decade in these

1:12:29

spaces. I think

1:12:32

it's important also for people to know that

1:12:35

I am in credit card debt because

1:12:38

of the fact that I had to use my

1:12:40

own personal money to make sure that I was

1:12:42

going to these sites, whether I had the research

1:12:44

funds to do it or not. It was important

1:12:46

for me to say, okay, what

1:12:48

you're not initiated to

1:12:50

do, but like you need to go to the

1:12:53

people. So if somebody wanted me to come to

1:12:55

New Orleans to talk to them, like I have

1:12:57

the funds to be there. So again, this took

1:12:59

my own money. This took

1:13:01

my own long time, my own labor to

1:13:04

sit with the people and to sit with

1:13:06

Black people thinking and propping

1:13:08

Black religious traditions. And

1:13:10

then you brought up

1:13:13

the idea about my photography. Reagan, I'm

1:13:15

so glad that you liked my pictures.

1:13:18

I have gotten really

1:13:20

good over time. And

1:13:23

I really I want to credit one

1:13:25

of my sister friends and colleagues, Brianna

1:13:28

Eaton, who is at

1:13:30

this point, she's

1:13:32

a grad student at Brown University,

1:13:35

who was very mindful about making sure

1:13:37

that I had a great camera

1:13:39

at the time. This is like early, not early 2000s,

1:13:42

but like from 2009 to 2013, 2011.

1:13:48

And then I had

1:13:51

a strong camera. Then all of a sudden,

1:13:53

I noticed that the camera was also was

1:13:57

for like some of the space I was in like. it

1:14:00

was too much that people kept watching me. And

1:14:02

I noticed that if I had a good phone, that

1:14:05

I can maneuver a little bit different

1:14:07

that people won't feel like it didn't

1:14:09

feel as abrasive. So again, I had

1:14:11

to change the way that my, my

1:14:15

use of technology so that I can like move

1:14:18

ceilings in the space in the space. So I

1:14:20

watched how like only think about like my participant

1:14:22

observation, it has changed over time. Reagan,

1:14:24

I'm also going to share with you that I

1:14:26

used to be one of those people that like

1:14:28

came with like a freaking big book and I

1:14:31

was writing all these notes. And I thought people

1:14:33

got frustrated with me. So when we think about

1:14:35

these ethnographic methods, I had to learn really quickly

1:14:37

quickly that the field was not a classroom. That

1:14:40

again, the new

1:14:42

strategies I was taking, for

1:14:45

me, it was like taking notes

1:14:47

on my phone versus on a piece of paper,

1:14:49

though type of memory I had to do to

1:14:51

memorize like the work. That

1:14:53

was also like different strategies and

1:14:55

techniques of understanding the

1:14:58

spaces. And then I have to go and and

1:15:04

write the space down, the things down. I

1:15:07

also I haven't shared this with people too, is

1:15:10

that the first few years I was,

1:15:12

when I was going back and forth

1:15:14

to Haiti, I was staying in Mama

1:15:16

Mo's spiritual home. And she

1:15:18

has like some rooms where people can share,

1:15:20

can share. And I noticed that like

1:15:22

the first few years, it was actually rough for me

1:15:25

as a practitioner to observe, I was always enmeshed with

1:15:27

the people. And like, imagine there's like

1:15:29

so many bodies. And I learned

1:15:31

a lot, it was like very immersive. But then

1:15:33

the last few years, I actually had my own

1:15:35

space. And one of the years

1:15:37

I remember, this was in 2018, where I

1:15:39

actually had my own space so

1:15:44

I can go back and forth to Mama

1:15:46

Mo's home. And I don't think people talk

1:15:48

about that enough, like how people are in

1:15:51

like different, are in different spaces and how

1:15:53

people are able to process. Reagan,

1:15:55

I recognize that when I had my own shit,

1:15:58

my own bathroom, my own stuff, I

1:16:01

was grateful for the early

1:16:03

experiences, but now like moving more,

1:16:06

knowing more about the voting home, I felt

1:16:08

like I was maturing in the space so

1:16:10

I can like come in and out. That

1:16:12

was actually very helpful for the way I live

1:16:14

with a process and actually breathe into the voting

1:16:17

space. And then also notice I had like a

1:16:19

balance of like coming in and out of the

1:16:21

home. So I wasn't bobbing a number of people.

1:16:23

And then also like I had time to process

1:16:26

and write things down and just rest. So

1:16:29

again, I'm describing the different

1:16:31

types of methodologies and the things I had

1:16:33

to change over time. And again, I was

1:16:35

getting older. And so

1:16:37

I think that it's important to know

1:16:40

that when scholars are moving into

1:16:42

the field, they're also changing it as well. And

1:16:46

I'm hoping that whoever is listening to this,

1:16:49

they know that like your method about how

1:16:51

you move, that also impacts how people see

1:16:54

you too. And so when

1:16:56

I wasn't on top of that, on

1:16:58

top of the folks, I

1:17:00

thought they appreciated me more. They're like, God, give us

1:17:02

a break. I wasn't asking

1:17:04

you a question. I was just coming in and playing. But

1:17:06

also again, I already did that work already. So I had

1:17:08

to keep doing the same thing over time. I

1:17:11

was changing things up. So, but again,

1:17:13

when you think about the photography,

1:17:18

I'm so glad that you're able to see it. Cause

1:17:21

I was, again, Brianna Eaton

1:17:23

really did help me articulate

1:17:28

and isolate like the types of intimacy

1:17:30

that I wanted to capture, types of

1:17:32

beautiful fashion. The

1:17:36

gaze not to look like it's very voyeuristic.

1:17:38

So it's like, you're just, you're in it,

1:17:40

but not like, like staring top down,

1:17:42

but you're immersed in it. So

1:17:45

she was a wonderful research assistant and also

1:17:47

like a sister friend to me. And

1:17:50

she helped me like figure out like the use

1:17:52

of my camera, like when to move away, when

1:17:54

to have different shots. So I'm

1:17:57

very honored about like the team

1:17:59

that I created. to help

1:18:01

me capture these beautiful moments. And so,

1:18:03

again, you hear me name out these

1:18:05

names because I wasn't doing this

1:18:07

by myself. I had beautiful people that were

1:18:09

able to walk with me during this stage,

1:18:12

the many stages I had to produce the book. Yeah,

1:18:16

I think readers will also really, they'll

1:18:18

love the book as well, but the

1:18:20

photography is also, it's wonderful.

1:18:23

And there are color photos in the

1:18:25

middle of the book that I should

1:18:27

also say. And I like how you've

1:18:29

mentioned that intimacy. I think that captures

1:18:31

exactly what the photos were doing because

1:18:33

you have pictures of people's tattoos and

1:18:36

people getting ready in their rooms. And

1:18:38

that's the perfect adjective to

1:18:41

describe the tone of those photos.

1:18:45

So thank you so much for talking with

1:18:47

us about the book. And so the last

1:18:49

question is, now that Voodoo

1:18:52

and Vogue is out in the

1:18:54

world, what projects are you working

1:18:56

on now? Or what do you

1:18:58

have coming up that you see on

1:19:00

the horizon for you? Yeah, can I just

1:19:02

talk about the reception already that I've been

1:19:04

getting before we think about the next project?

1:19:07

And sometimes as scholars, we like to go, okay, what's the

1:19:09

next thing? And,

1:19:12

Reagan, this project with the

1:19:14

labor of love, which I have a labor,

1:19:16

when it came out, I

1:19:18

have never seen black people so

1:19:20

excited. This

1:19:22

is, I'm thinking about, so

1:19:24

let me just say, I'll say this. This book

1:19:27

is for scholars of the African diaspora, scholars

1:19:30

who are interested in the African diaspora, who

1:19:32

is interested in religious studies, feminist studies, black

1:19:34

studies, queer studies, boom. This

1:19:37

book also is coming from

1:19:39

an Africana lens and

1:19:41

for people that are interested in Africana

1:19:43

studies. And also my

1:19:46

heart of hearts, I'm thinking about

1:19:48

when black people think about black religion,

1:19:51

what is it supposed to look like? So,

1:19:54

having black people that

1:19:57

are both scholars, practitioners, people that

1:19:59

are... aficionados of

1:20:02

religion come up

1:20:04

to me and go, ooh, you

1:20:06

did that shit. Like that's fun,

1:20:08

Reagan. I don't think, like it

1:20:10

was important for me to think about like when I

1:20:12

was writing to make sure that the writing was very

1:20:15

clear. I knew that my audience could be broad. So

1:20:18

I wanted scholars to take hold

1:20:20

of it for grad students, for undergrads and to

1:20:23

be able to read it. But I also think

1:20:25

about practitioners

1:20:27

who are reading this tradition. And if this is

1:20:29

their first time learning about vodou and

1:20:32

people that are Haitian and people who are

1:20:34

the diaphragm, if they're reading this for the

1:20:36

first time, what does that look like? And

1:20:39

you know, when I went to, when

1:20:43

I've been in these vodou homes, everyone

1:20:45

has a library. And so I

1:20:47

would see a Karen McCarthy Brown's

1:20:50

book. I would see Robert

1:20:52

Ferris Thompson's Flash of the Spirits

1:20:55

book. I would see

1:20:57

who's the book, I

1:20:59

would see Elizabeth Perez, a Religion in the

1:21:01

Kitchen. And then now I get to see

1:21:04

my book. I've been to like four different

1:21:06

homes and I saw like their books, my

1:21:08

book and the shelf. And

1:21:10

I know that this is like, this is

1:21:13

just the beginning. And I feel so cool.

1:21:15

Like this is dope. Cause I always

1:21:17

kept saying, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna be a part of

1:21:19

that academic

1:21:21

space that

1:21:24

like when people are trying to learn about the religious, it's

1:21:27

there. So when I say with the reception, I

1:21:29

had people come up to me and cry that they

1:21:32

don't like, I didn't know that this religion could

1:21:34

be so beautiful. And I think

1:21:36

that I'm talking about the tears and people's

1:21:38

joy because I think that when

1:21:40

scholars write, I always ask like, who are you

1:21:43

writing for? What is your audience? And

1:21:46

I did not want to write

1:21:48

in a way that it was thinking about black trauma

1:21:50

porn. I'm like, I don't care about that. I'm not

1:21:52

interested in that. I'm interested in

1:21:54

thinking about the complexities of

1:21:57

Vodou, the intricacies of Vodou, the

1:21:59

fact that... Black people are not a monolith,

1:22:01

so there's different types of opinions and ways of

1:22:03

being. And

1:22:05

again, I think about Black joy, Black beauty,

1:22:08

Black people that revel in

1:22:11

themselves. This shit was fun to me. So

1:22:14

again, I'm glad I was able to have

1:22:16

the chance to talk about the reception, because

1:22:18

I think that although

1:22:20

I know people are going to have their

1:22:22

critiques, and that's fine, I'm prepared for that.

1:22:25

I mean, you can't be in this field

1:22:27

without critiques. And I'm

1:22:29

also celebrating

1:22:31

the fact that the reception has

1:22:34

been overall very, very

1:22:36

powerful and positive. And that

1:22:39

sits with me very well. And

1:22:42

so now that I

1:22:44

finished this part, this book, and I'm still

1:22:47

sitting on going on tour, that's why we're

1:22:49

here. My second

1:22:51

book is thinking about specifically about

1:22:54

Black queer women in

1:22:56

both Haitian vodou and in hoodou. And

1:22:59

the things I could not say as much when it

1:23:01

comes to gender and sexuality, as much,

1:23:05

because you know, this book was about fashion, and

1:23:07

you know, gender and sexuality was a part of

1:23:09

it, but it was not the whole of it.

1:23:12

I was like, ah, I just need it. I just

1:23:14

need a whole other book. There's like, there's a section

1:23:16

I just couldn't get to, because like, it didn't, it

1:23:18

just kept taking down on tangents. So

1:23:21

what I couldn't do there, I'm doing

1:23:23

here by thinking about the

1:23:25

dynamics of Black queer women and the

1:23:27

role in Haitian vodou, and also like

1:23:29

how they're using vodou

1:23:31

and both hoodou and from New

1:23:34

Orleans to think

1:23:37

about ideas about their own

1:23:39

ways of being in community,

1:23:42

online presence, and

1:23:44

the roles and connections to their

1:23:46

conversations with different divinities as well.

1:23:50

Great. So that's wonderful. I love to

1:23:52

hear about that reception of

1:23:55

the book. That's heartening to hear, and

1:23:57

we will look forward then to the

1:23:59

to the as work coming out as

1:24:01

well as you continue

1:24:04

on this academic journey. So thank

1:24:06

you so much for talking with us about this book.

1:24:09

I'm Reagan Gillum. I've

1:24:11

been speaking with Dr.

1:24:13

Eziaku Atuama Wunkocha, who

1:24:15

is the author of the book Vodou and

1:24:18

Vogue, Fashioning Black Divinity in Haiti and the

1:24:20

United States, published by the University

1:24:22

of North Carolina Press. Thank you so much for

1:24:24

writing this book and for sharing it with us

1:24:26

on the podcast. Thank you. Okay.