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studies which operates online through the new

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books network and murals cheer lead that

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each for each do episode which was

1:54

an important new book in the broad

1:56

revealed of islamic studies and we chat

1:58

with it's odd it Anika

2:01

Schmading's new book Sufi

2:03

Civilities, Religious Authority and

2:06

Political Change in Afghanistan is

2:09

a deeply sensitive and rich study

2:12

of a variety of facets of

2:14

Sufism in contemporary Afghanistan. Focused

2:17

on the intersection and interaction

2:20

of Sufism and Afghan civil

2:22

society, this book simultaneously

2:24

offers a layered

2:26

and often moving account of

2:29

Sufism in Afghanistan while also

2:31

presenting an excellent critique of

2:34

Western NGO-driven understandings of civility

2:36

and civil society. The

2:39

book also engages a number of themes connected

2:41

to Sufism in Afghanistan including Sufism and the

2:43

state, gender in Sufism, Sufis

2:46

and the Olamah, and

2:48

Sufi religious authority through

2:50

the Aunirik imagination. This

2:53

wonderfully written book will also be a pleasure

2:55

to teach in the classroom. Here

2:57

now is my conversation with Professor Anika

3:01

Schmading. Hello

3:03

Anika, welcome to the New Books Network.

3:05

A real pleasure to have you on

3:08

our forecast. Absolutely,

3:11

and this was such a great pleasure reading this text. Both

3:15

for scholars and teachers of Sufism and South

3:18

Asia and Afghanistan and Islam, there is so

3:20

much there both in terms of research and

3:22

in terms of possible use in the classroom.

3:24

So really excited about talking to you about

3:27

this fantastic new book. We

3:29

have a tradition on the New Books Network,

3:31

Anika, that our first question is always biographical.

3:33

So I was wondering if briefly you could

3:36

share a bit with our listeners your journey

3:38

or story about how you became a

3:40

scholar. Sure, yeah. So

3:43

I think there's a very short answer and

3:45

there's a longer answer to that. I guess

3:47

the short answer would be curiosity and learning

3:49

from everyone. And The longer answer

3:51

is of course the combination of my own

3:53

studies and then spending time in the places

3:55

where I directly learned from people. So I

3:57

Studied cultural anthropology, political anthropology, and other things.

4:00

Fine and Comparative Literature in Berlin

4:02

and Am. I took a semester

4:04

off to hitchhike to Pakistan and

4:06

city their the university for one

4:08

semester in Islamabad and well I

4:10

was there. I realize that what

4:13

I was learning by being in

4:15

the place actually explain to me

4:17

so much more what and apology

4:19

was about what kind of questions

4:21

I one could ask and approach

4:23

and through anthropology And so I

4:25

decided that I wanted to just

4:28

spent more time actually in the

4:30

region to understand. Better.

4:32

Actually what I was studying at university

4:34

and so I decided to take a

4:36

year off and between might be a

4:38

and and May and I moved to

4:40

Afghanistan. To. That within twenty

4:42

eleven and I took on a

4:45

job as an intern in the

4:47

Afghan government. Ah and following that

4:49

I initially worked in and owes

4:51

Am but also for an Afghan

4:53

circus project And am I realized

4:55

that there was so much complexity

4:57

So much that am I wanted

5:00

to understand better So and back

5:02

to Europe to get a masters

5:04

in Middle East Area studies at

5:06

Leiden were also said it properly

5:08

learning Persian and pass to and

5:10

immersing myself in. History of Afghanistan

5:12

in the Region am I returned

5:14

for future research? In Twenty Thirteen

5:16

Fourteen and I decided I wanted

5:18

to pursue a Phd in anthropology

5:20

at Boston University which would give

5:23

me the time to properly understand

5:25

more facets of or what was

5:27

going on or I mean what

5:29

I was studying and it's only

5:31

see maybe such with not on

5:33

syfy communities and I actually be

5:35

searched initially on nine pneumatic commute

5:37

she's in Afghanistan. In

5:39

the during one of the research trips to. Enjoy

5:43

over which you with us are conducting

5:45

some research and for the European Union

5:48

and they got attacked and them during

5:50

a time when I was kind of.

5:53

Rethinking of the Weather and what

5:55

kind of research actually wanted to

5:57

do and had a very insightful

5:59

comments. And. How it

6:01

can happen friend of mine and and

6:03

it came from that experience actually that

6:06

I mentioned earlier from having spent time

6:08

in Turkey, Syria, Iran, Pakistan and which

6:10

are all countries with a sizable sushi

6:13

presence and also of course the to

6:15

chat bots of his men these countries

6:17

and and i was sitting overlap and

6:20

swiss my of can friend a ruler

6:22

who was at the timer director for

6:24

research institute death and ask him what

6:26

had actually happened to Soviets in Afghanistan

6:29

because of course. We

6:31

knew Afghanistan as a place which been

6:34

the cradle of mystic interpretation of islam

6:36

and of course also with the origin

6:38

of Milan majority in both the non

6:40

in the west as roomy. But.

6:43

It will. I'm wondering like okay

6:45

so what actually happened to these

6:47

communities in these last decades on

6:49

and I'm so He basically just

6:51

laughed at me and said like

6:53

well they also here and you

6:55

foreigners just don't ask about them

6:57

because all it's that he care

6:59

about is gender, counterinsurgency, and nation

7:01

building. And. So I

7:04

I just have that to

7:06

heart. And

7:08

decided. Such.

7:11

As basically a very delayed answer to

7:13

this discussion with my friends in which

7:15

I then I went on to on

7:17

the one hand for us to my

7:19

dissertation and also my post sucking which

7:22

Electron wrote. A book. That you have

7:24

no read and about and experiences

7:26

of city communities during attitude is

7:29

last twenty years am of minutes.

7:31

Of. Mention such occupation but also the

7:33

long history of kind of the

7:35

last four to five deck. it's

7:37

and of experiences that as if

7:40

he can meet his have had

7:42

enough. Of

7:44

a one hundred to sort of dive into the

7:46

book my be to talk about the title of

7:48

the book to do with disabilities and of you

7:50

know what a key aspect of this book. And

7:52

one aspect of the same in of

7:55

this book is this sub. What?

7:57

one might call the intersection but also it

7:59

also the into between Sufism

8:02

and Afghan civil society, and you

8:04

make it a point to use

8:06

this case study to critique sort of Western

8:08

NGO dominated notions of what is civil society.

8:11

So I was wondering maybe we can begin

8:13

with that. Could you speak a bit about

8:15

this underlying theme of the book in terms

8:17

of the relationship between civility and Sufism or

8:19

civil society and Sufism in Afghanistan? Could you

8:22

explain that a bit for our listeners? Yeah,

8:25

thank you for that question. So

8:28

my main argument is that by

8:30

using Sufism to look at Afghanistan,

8:32

kind of a crucial part of

8:34

Afghanistan's history in society, but also

8:36

civil space comes into view when

8:39

we apply this lens. And

8:42

this intersection of Sufism and civil society

8:45

actually came into view for me, not

8:47

from a literature lens at first, but

8:49

actually from an experiential lens. So it

8:51

came from an experience that I had at

8:54

a Sufi gathering in Kabul, where

8:57

one of the participants, and

8:59

this is also how I start the book, joked about this

9:02

to me and says, this is actually

9:04

the real Afghan civil society, what we're

9:06

experiencing here in this Sufi gathering. And

9:09

when she said that, it kind

9:11

of struck me for several reasons.

9:14

So at the time of my

9:16

research, of course, civil society have

9:18

become a special interest in

9:20

the kind of neoliberal development policy

9:23

that was driving the post 2001 state

9:25

building process in Afghanistan. And

9:29

interestingly, actually the woman who made that comment, she

9:31

was herself a part of that. So she was

9:34

a director of a large NGO. She

9:36

was interfacing with a lot of

9:38

international donors. But

9:42

she actually meant that what

9:44

is actually missing when we

9:46

see civil society as only

9:48

NGOs, we're actually missing

9:51

a really crucial part of what the

9:53

civil space is in Afghanistan. And

9:56

her critique actually is the critique

9:58

of seeing these

10:01

civil society, particularly as

10:05

NGOs that are actually English speaking, that

10:07

are mainly doing service delivery as well

10:09

in the development and reconstruction sector. And

10:13

of course, that's not uncommon in

10:15

the global development sector, where

10:17

of course the technically oriented NGOs

10:19

take over the job of aid delivery. But

10:23

what is, of course, furthermore happening or

10:25

what's happening in Afghanistan was

10:28

that these civil society

10:30

actors or organizations were also framed as

10:32

central to the post-2001 peace and state

10:34

building process as an attempt to also

10:36

humanize the war. So they

10:38

were actually seen by particular actors such

10:41

as military leads in the United States

10:43

as a kind of force multiplier or

10:45

as a part of the combat team.

10:48

So the kind of like linking up

10:50

of this kind of civil

10:52

society also with counterinsurgency. So

10:55

the joke of that woman who was attending that

10:58

Sufi poetry gathering was actually

11:00

targeted at this particular way of

11:02

understanding civil society, which is rather

11:04

limited because Afghanistan of course has

11:08

never been without its own civil

11:10

society sphere. So that's always in

11:12

the more informal sector, people

11:14

who are coming together on a

11:16

volunteer basis to improve infrastructure, to

11:18

support people in need or to

11:20

mediate disputes. So

11:23

once I started actually looking at these

11:25

Sufi communities in these ways, I

11:28

also found, of course, actual

11:30

evidence in, of course, the general

11:32

more history of Islam, right? When

11:34

we look at Amanda Savatore's work,

11:36

for example, who has argued that

11:39

Sufi logics historically have always been

11:41

important meeting points that

11:44

established social bonds between not only

11:46

the master and disciple, but also

11:48

between students. They

11:50

were always sanctuaries for long distance

11:52

travelers. Peers regularly

11:55

were recruited to mediate and resolve

11:57

problems. And Sufi authors,

12:00

in many ways connected a

12:02

wide variety of individuals, such

12:04

as social classes, and

12:06

also made connections between different

12:08

regions. So

12:10

my argument therefore builds on that, and

12:13

I use Sophism as a land to

12:16

which to better understand Afghanistan

12:18

society, and also built on

12:21

work by anthropologists who have

12:24

questioned this narrow usage of the

12:26

term civil society. And

12:28

I doubt it's therefore a

12:30

more expanded definition of what

12:32

they could term civility. So the

12:35

term itself, civility can be quite

12:38

misleading, of course, because I do

12:41

not mean to, with that kind

12:43

of morality or manners or civic

12:45

virtues. So I'm not trying to

12:48

measure the kind of civicness

12:52

of Sufi adherents or

12:54

how faithful they are, but

12:57

I'm using it to kind of analyze

12:59

the social networks of trust that are

13:01

created by these Sufi communities. And so

13:04

what I mean by that is that

13:06

they actually fulfill a lot of

13:09

important functions in society. So there's

13:11

of course aspects of socialization, public

13:15

communication of ideas, social

13:17

security, there's of course as well the

13:20

distribution of resources of food,

13:22

for example, at those Sufi lodges as

13:24

well. And as

13:26

already mentioned before, the kind of

13:28

mediation and conflict resolution. And

13:31

so if you look at

13:34

Sufi communities in this way, then

13:36

we can see these kinds of

13:39

changes and continuities in different areas

13:41

of society, such

13:43

as religious education, questions

13:46

of how national heritage is

13:48

negotiated, but also the

13:50

kind of space that

13:53

lets people voice divergent

13:55

opinions or tolerate coexistence.

13:58

So it's also a, a way

14:00

to look at how discourses

14:02

are shifting within society. Terrific.

14:07

The next question I want to ask before

14:09

we get more into some of the specifics

14:11

of the individual chapters is that,

14:15

of course, one ought not to over romanticize

14:20

or pigeonhole the specificity of any

14:22

context. But this

14:25

ethnographic project was conducted in rather

14:27

extraordinary times in Afghanistan.

14:32

And there are not many ethnographies,

14:34

especially in relation to Afghanistan's religious

14:37

present that we have in the Western Academy. So

14:40

I just wanted to ask you a bit about

14:42

the experience of conducting

14:44

an ethnographic project in a site

14:46

like Afghanistan, some

14:48

of the potentialities, but also some of the

14:50

challenges of ethnographic work in

14:53

a context that is so under explored in

14:55

the Western Academy. Let me very briefly talk

14:57

a bit about the experience of ethnography before

15:00

we get to some specific issues in

15:02

relation to the chapters of the book. Yeah,

15:06

so I think when thinking

15:08

about Afghanistan, a

15:11

lot of the literature that we

15:13

know, of course, comes more from

15:15

political science or IR. Can

15:18

we scrap that? Can I start again? Sure.

15:22

OK. Yeah,

15:24

so I approached Sufi

15:26

communities from an anthropological

15:29

perspective, which means

15:31

that I was looking at the networks

15:33

of Sufi teachers and students, their sociality,

15:35

but also their politics of interaction with

15:38

each other and with outsiders. And

15:40

I did that with

15:43

a number of different, very typical,

15:45

I would say, anthropological methodologies. I

15:48

did qualitative interviews. I

15:50

did participant observation. I

15:52

also looked at private archives of some of

15:54

these communities. But

15:57

what, of course, is maybe a bit more special. to

16:00

conflict settings, of course, is the question of

16:02

how to conduct the research safely

16:06

for both the

16:08

different people that I was

16:10

interfacing with and for their

16:13

wider community as well.

16:16

One of the responses for that for me was

16:18

to conduct the

16:21

research in multiple sites. So I

16:23

did multi-sided research in Herat and

16:25

in Kabul, so in two of

16:28

the major cities in

16:30

Afghanistan. So I

16:33

was spending some time in

16:35

the communities going to weekly

16:37

gatherings and teachings, attending annual

16:40

celebrations or attending

16:42

zikr sessions and videotaping and photographing speeches,

16:44

pretty much like the usual things

16:46

that I think any anthropologist

16:49

would do to conduct this kind

16:51

of research. But

16:54

of course one of the things that maybe

16:56

is special for most of conflict or post-conflict

17:00

environments is the

17:02

kind of dialogue with

17:04

many interlocutors about what

17:07

they consider a safe or safe way

17:09

of interacting with each other because there

17:12

is a constantly changing security situation,

17:14

of course, around us. And

17:16

so sometimes

17:20

that actually meant that I couldn't

17:22

spend very long time in one

17:24

place or it changed how long time I

17:26

could actually spend in communities. And

17:30

of course it's also a situation

17:32

where there is a very open

17:34

dialogue then with the communities that

17:36

I research about what is safe

17:38

for them to share with me

17:40

or what should I write about

17:42

and in which way. So I

17:44

did a lot what is often

17:46

termed dialogical writing, so I would

17:48

be writing already parts of

17:50

what I wanted to include later on in my

17:52

dissertation or for the book and I would

17:54

be showing it to some of my interlocutors and

17:56

getting their insights into whether

17:59

and writing about them actually

18:01

not only felt congruent with how

18:03

they were experiencing it, but also

18:05

whether that was actually safe to

18:07

name certain things or,

18:10

you know, to write about

18:12

in that sense also if it

18:14

became public in an environment that

18:16

also is quite polarized around some

18:18

of the issues there was writing

18:20

about. So I think in

18:23

that sense, a lot

18:25

of the difficulties of experiencing

18:27

research in Afghanistan are comparable

18:29

to other conflict laws. And

18:32

I believe that there has been always

18:35

actually a lot of room to actually

18:37

conduct underground research in Afghanistan, which

18:40

a lot of times is more

18:42

complicated also by institutions in

18:44

the Western Academy of actually

18:46

letting researchers go to those

18:49

places and doing that

18:51

responsibly. So I

18:53

think that there is actually a need for having a

18:56

broader discussion about this, how to conduct

18:58

this research to keep both the researcher

19:00

but also the research

19:03

community with whom we are doing this research

19:05

safe in the way that we're doing the

19:07

research. Okay, let's come to the

19:09

first chapter in which the

19:11

main theme is the relationship between Sufism

19:14

and the state and Sufi groups

19:16

and the state. And

19:18

here I think perhaps I thought the most

19:20

useful way to talk about this for our

19:23

listeners might be to talk

19:25

about these three main categories that

19:27

you talk about

19:29

in terms of conceptualizing this

19:32

relationship, what you call state

19:34

alignment resistance and strategic distance.

19:36

Could you explain a bit to our listeners

19:38

what you mean by these three categories and

19:41

how they shed light on some

19:43

of the ambivalence of this relationship

19:45

between Sufism and the state in

19:47

Afghanistan? Great question. Thank you for that.

19:50

So my take

19:53

on the relationship between Sufi leaders

19:55

and their community vis-a-vis the state

19:57

comes from this question how Sufi

19:59

can help. communities have dealt historically,

20:01

but also more contemporaneously, with

20:05

this ever-changing political circumstances that they

20:08

found themselves in. So I

20:10

believe most listeners would know maybe most

20:12

about, you know, the last 20 years,

20:16

with international intervention slash occupation and

20:18

counterinsurgency operation and terror attacks. But

20:20

of course, there's a

20:22

much longer history already of

20:25

revolutions and coups and rapidly

20:28

changing socioeconomic conditions, the Soviet

20:30

invasion, of course, before that

20:33

in the late 1970s, 1979. So

20:41

there are a lot of drastic changes

20:43

that Sufi communities have lived through. And

20:46

so I looked into how can

20:49

we actually understand the

20:51

relationship then from

20:53

like Sufi leaders and their communities

20:55

vis-a-vis the state. Historians,

20:58

of course, have cautioned that there's not

21:00

one particular Sufi approach to politics, per

21:02

se. But

21:04

what I found when I looked into

21:07

the historiography and my own oral history

21:09

interviews, was that Sufi communities

21:11

have shown a remarkable

21:13

dexterity in their ability to

21:15

adapt. And in fact, I

21:18

would actually say that their dexterity itself is

21:20

the framework. So the way to adapt in

21:22

these multiple ways towards

21:24

these changing political circumstances. And I

21:27

propose these three relational types that

21:30

you just mentioned, the state alignment,

21:32

resistant and assert, which are termed

21:34

strategic distance. And so

21:37

these three approaches, of course, do

21:39

not map neatly onto particular actors

21:42

or groups, but they're adopted circumstantially

21:44

as the environment shifts and changes.

21:47

So the first one, state

21:49

alignment, is maybe one

21:51

that a lot of historians would be very

21:54

familiar with. Because

21:56

over the centuries, many rulers in various parts

21:58

of the world have attacked. themselves to

22:00

Sufi peers or follow their guidance.

22:03

Of course, in the early

22:26

20th century, they were welcomed to Afghanistan

22:28

by the then ruler, Amia Habibullah, who

22:51

gave them land, for example, and a monthly

22:53

allowance to settle. For

22:56

the Mujahideedi, they established much

22:59

earlier, actually, already their

23:01

Sufi lodge in Kabul, and

23:03

it became very influential religious

23:05

family in Afghanistan that also

23:08

was asked, for example, to

23:10

perform coronation ceremony for the

23:13

Durrani ruler, Zaman Shah. Of

23:16

course, this is a very well-known

23:18

history that's also detailed by

23:20

historians such as Walid Ziyad.

23:23

They showed that actually in

23:25

the study of these next

23:27

Mujahidee alliances, rulers,

23:31

for instance, of newly established

23:33

states often lacked historical legitimacy,

23:36

and they required the backing of

23:38

spiritual institutions or of a spiritual

23:40

institutional base, and

23:43

they could draw on that as social capital.

23:45

So, that was kind of like a kind

23:47

of, yes, ambiosis, as one might

23:49

want to say. And this actually

23:52

carried on in the

23:54

last decades, where of course, particular

23:57

members of the Sufi families became ministers

23:59

or intermarried. with the royal family. And

24:02

they were important in the political establishment

24:04

in Afghanistan. And I think a lot

24:06

of history has often

24:09

focused on these families

24:11

and the more politically

24:13

visible Sufi groups.

24:16

But then kind of like there's

24:18

of course the second stance vis-a-vis

24:20

the state, which is resistance. So

24:23

Sufi communities have not only served

24:25

as allies of the state, but

24:28

also as key figures

24:30

of resistance. And in many

24:33

parts of the Islamic world Sufis

24:35

were known as critics of

24:37

power. We know that of course from

24:39

times of colonial expansion when Sufi peers

24:42

and brotherhoods were often

24:44

one of the authoritative

24:46

structures that were giving

24:48

resistance actually to

24:52

colonial powers. And

24:55

this actually didn't end in

24:57

the colonial period, but we also see this later

25:00

on with critics of

25:02

the Afghan state, such

25:04

as in Afghanistan, Pierre-Ella Mafayzani, who was active

25:07

in Afghanistan's political scene in 1950s to 70s.

25:09

But also in 1980s with the resistance

25:14

against the Soviet-backed Afghan government, there

25:16

were two of the resistant parties

25:18

that were also led by Sufi

25:20

peers. And I

25:23

believe that the third kind of

25:26

stance that Sufi

25:28

leaders and communities could take towards the

25:30

state and what I call strategic distance

25:33

is a bit more difficult to

25:35

trace because it doesn't directly come

25:37

out of a direct alliance as

25:40

being part of the state or

25:42

a direct political stance. So Sufi

25:45

communities have usually primarily

25:47

existed as localized social groups

25:50

and they were usually affiliated to

25:53

a particular Sufi teacher, a peer,

25:55

or a high-ranking student in Khalifa.

25:57

But they

26:00

did not have necessarily

26:02

an overt political affiliation

26:04

to central government structures.

26:08

So this is

26:10

basically just a normal fact of these

26:12

local groups life of how they just

26:14

lead their life. But in

26:17

moments when actually drastic political

26:19

changes took place, this

26:22

remoteness from power could also become

26:24

a shielding mechanism, a way to

26:26

stay apolitical to be power avoidant.

26:29

So there's different examples of that that mainly

26:32

actually came out of a lot of my

26:34

interviews of the

26:36

different communities. So it could mean avoiding

26:39

interaction with government representatives or

26:41

with insurgents. It could mean

26:44

migration either of individuals or

26:46

of a wholesale community and

26:49

then re-establishing of particular teaching

26:51

circles or of libraries in

26:53

neighboring countries. It could also

26:56

mean a discursive distancing.

26:58

So a community could

27:01

either self-censor or they could stay

27:03

away from voicing political opinions or

27:05

they could give depro of

27:24

these three rough typologies surfacing

27:27

in the history of Afghanistan.

27:30

And of course, there would be much more to

27:32

say about that. But maybe these examples already give

27:35

a taste of the

27:37

repertoire of these adaptations and these

27:39

groups were engaged in. Wonderful. The

27:43

next question I want to ask you again is

27:45

one of the key themes of

27:47

this book, which

27:50

is trying to question the

27:52

supposed and oftentimes supposed binary

27:55

of Sufis and the Olamah or

27:57

between Sufism and the stomach. legal

28:00

tradition in the study of Central Asia and Afghanistan.

28:03

Could you talk a little bit about how

28:05

you question this often presumed antagonism between

28:08

Dholama and Sufi masters with the help,

28:10

perhaps, of a case study

28:12

that you talk about extensively in Japras,

28:14

right? Yeah. I

28:16

think one of the difficulties when

28:19

trying to look at actually the different

28:21

Sufi groups is

28:24

this idea of having

28:26

these two different antagonistic

28:28

groups, that being,

28:31

on the one hand, the Dholama with

28:33

Imams and with, for example, the Dholama

28:36

Council, and on the other hand, different

28:38

Sufi groups. And this

28:40

has been amply

28:42

critiqued historically, of course, as they

28:45

used to be overlapping.

28:47

So Dholama used to

28:49

also be Sufi peers

28:51

and used to both

28:53

actually give legal advice

28:56

as much as they were also engaged

28:58

actually in activities that we

29:00

would usually ascribe more into,

29:04

you know, for Sufi communities and for

29:07

Sufi teachers. But

29:10

it's interesting that kind of in the

29:13

last decades, of course, there

29:15

is a kind of

29:17

more like heightened bifurcation

29:21

that we can see between these

29:24

two different positions and how they're

29:26

being stereotyped or how they're being

29:28

cast. And in some

29:30

cases, actually, that has led to

29:33

Sufi communities themselves, very subconsciously

29:36

actually working with that. And

29:39

one example for me is, which

29:41

I've described in the chapter that

29:43

you mentioned, is

29:47

the Hanaka Palavan,

29:49

which is one of the

29:52

oldest Sufi lodges in

29:54

Ashikanwa Arefan, which is an old

29:56

part of Kabul. And

29:58

this particular chapter, Sufi

30:00

Lodge had been led

30:03

by one family over

30:06

the course of nearly 200 years and given

30:08

further from one

30:11

teacher to another but always kind of

30:13

remaining actually within the same family. And

30:17

during a period of time in

30:20

which fighting intensified

30:23

particularly in Kabul,

30:25

so this was kind

30:27

of at the end of the Soviet

30:30

government of the PDPA

30:32

in the end of the 1980s and then beginning

30:35

1990s when different

30:38

Mujahideen factions that had fought against the

30:40

central government were starting to fight against

30:42

each other period. That also is then

30:44

known as kind of the civil war

30:46

period in Afghanistan or often described as

30:48

such. During

30:50

this time there was also

30:52

a lot of fighting

30:55

that happened in the vicinity of

30:57

this particular Sufi Lodge and not

30:59

only had some of the teachers

31:02

before been threatened and imprisoned and

31:04

targeted but also then

31:06

it just became too

31:08

much for that family that had

31:10

had this particular Sufi Lodge. And

31:13

so they decided to leave

31:16

Afghanistan like at that time

31:18

many Afghans who went

31:20

to Pakistan or further

31:23

as well to the west at the time. So

31:26

the family left the Sufi

31:29

Lodge but what they decided

31:31

is to give

31:34

the leadership of

31:36

the Sufi Lodge to an Imam

31:39

who had led his own mosque

31:42

in a different part of town. His name

31:44

was Hajiz Dakhal and he

31:47

had known actually that particular

31:50

Sufi Lodge for many

31:52

years since he was a little boy. So

31:54

his father actually used to come to that

31:56

Sufi Lodge and he was

31:58

known by by

32:00

the community who

32:02

frequented this Sufi lodge as

32:05

somebody who was trustworthy and

32:08

somebody who would also maybe

32:10

be better positioned to well positioned to

32:12

take over this position

32:14

at this particular point in time. Because

32:18

what was happening of course, all

32:21

over Afghanistan also in Pakistan was also

32:23

a shift in general

32:25

discourse about religious authority and

32:27

who could be seen as

32:29

a legitimate religious

32:32

authority. And so him actually

32:34

being an Imam with

32:36

his own mask and madrasa had

32:39

a particular standing and was recognizable in

32:43

his particular role as an Imam.

32:45

So he actually took on also

32:47

as the peer of that community

32:49

and he did both. And what he

32:52

did actually then during the next decade

32:55

and two was that he

32:57

really shielded that community through

32:59

his way of interacting with

33:01

different power brokers who came

33:03

and went. In Afghanistan, so

33:05

on the one hand, he

33:09

interacted with different Wudaydi

33:12

sections who were there. On

33:14

the other hand, she also interacted then later with the

33:16

Taliban when they were in power in the 1990s. And

33:20

the Taliban at the time didn't

33:22

have a particular national

33:27

rule towards Sufi groups.

33:31

But from time to time, they would

33:33

maybe make moves to close the Sufi

33:35

lodge. So what he would do actually

33:37

was that he would talk

33:40

with his students in his madrasa and

33:42

figure out who would be

33:45

closely connected to particular

33:47

ministries of the Taliban

33:49

to talk with them to keep the Sufi

33:51

lodge open. So he very much

33:55

embodied this kind of, this

33:57

double sense of on the one hand,

34:00

being part of the general

34:02

ulema, but also actually being

34:05

the peer of the Sufi lodge. And I

34:08

found that

34:11

this was a way as well for

34:13

me in my book, then, to talk

34:16

a bit and to problematize this idea

34:18

that these are two absolute

34:21

separate realms that are

34:23

also antagonistic to each other. Because

34:27

in many instances where

34:29

I went to different khanakas to different

34:31

Sufi lodges as well, I

34:34

found that they were also

34:36

led by imams who also

34:38

had their own mask, who actually were leading

34:40

both at the same time. So these

34:43

are actually not mutually exclusive

34:47

roles to be had. And then I

34:49

think it would serve

34:51

generally well to reevaluate this

34:53

idea of Sufism

34:56

as being absolutely separate from

34:58

otherwise Islam

35:00

and from these other roles of the

35:02

ulema, for example. One other key

35:04

theme that comes up in this book, especially

35:07

in one of the chapters is Sufi poetry.

35:10

And what I really loved about this chapter is that you

35:12

showed not only

35:14

the religious significance and history of Sufi

35:17

poetry in Afghanistan, but also the

35:19

sorts of changes and transformations

35:21

that tradition has undergone over time,

35:24

especially in the modern and

35:26

contemporary period. So that's a very big question

35:28

I'm asking, but perhaps you could speak a

35:30

little about the significance of Sufi poetry to

35:33

Afghanistan. And what are some of the major

35:35

changes that this tradition and continuities for that

35:37

matter that this tradition has undergone in

35:40

the modern and contemporary periods? Yeah,

35:43

it's a huge question. I think

35:45

actually one where we need

35:47

even more research on and

35:49

writing on in the future. So of

35:52

course, on the one hand, the importance

35:54

of Sufi poetry in the religious and

35:56

social history of Afghanistan can not be

35:58

stated enough Sufi poetry. have

36:00

played an important part in Afghanistan's cultural

36:03

and religious history. It's

36:05

been a source of religious education and

36:08

also a particular point of pride, as well

36:10

as sometimes struggle in terms of cultural heritage.

36:13

It might not become maybe directly

36:15

a pairing for a Western

36:17

audience when reading Persians of the poetry

36:19

in its English translation, but many

36:22

of the phrases, of course, within the

36:24

poetry come directly from the Quran or

36:26

the echo, its spirit. So a

36:28

telling example of the different readings

36:30

and understanding of what to be poetry is

36:33

made of course be and that has been

36:35

written about a lot already. The

36:37

writing, one of its most prominent

36:40

exemplars of Jalaluddin

36:42

Ba'arci or Wumi, as he

36:44

is also known in the

36:47

West. And

36:49

he has of

36:52

course produced some of the most

36:55

important and beautiful poetry.

36:59

In Afghanistan, his work is actually called

37:01

the Quran in Persian. And

37:04

this is the case because Malana drew on

37:06

something that Purnuya called the

37:08

coronization of memory. So Quranic vocabulary

37:11

not only colored these poetic expression

37:13

and influenced the poetry, but

37:16

also Sufis were able to understand

37:18

everything in light of

37:20

different Quranic sentences and could draw on

37:22

it. And of course, Malana,

37:25

Wumi, he was a scholar

37:27

himself. And so a lot

37:30

of historically Muslims in the Persian

37:33

world learned about Islam, not only

37:35

through the Quran

37:37

and the Hadith, but also

37:39

through poetry of Wumi, Sadi

37:41

and Hafiz. So it

37:43

was a regular component in

37:45

Maratha education to,

37:47

for example, read poetry collections such

37:50

as Panch Ganj, like the Five

37:52

Treasures or Koliata Jahar Kitab, the

37:55

complete four books. And these were

37:57

these poetry collections that were also

37:59

thought in Madrasas. So

38:03

the anthropologist, Nilouf Hairy, who works on

38:05

poetry in Iran, of course, suggests that

38:07

poetry is, on the

38:10

one hand, religious ethical scaffolding for

38:12

people's lives, but also

38:14

an Islamic educational tool. And

38:17

that was also the fact

38:19

in Afghanistan where classical poetry

38:21

that's also overwhelmingly steeped in

38:23

Islamic mysticism provided this

38:25

important educational tool. Of

38:29

course, some of that has been changing, as

38:31

some of the poetry also has been learned

38:33

from that particular point of

38:36

the education. But

38:38

it used to be a big part of

38:40

how people learned about

38:43

Islam. And it

38:45

became such a huge part, of

38:47

course, of orality and making ethical

38:50

judgments for people to actually

38:52

see their lives through this

38:54

poetry. And not

38:57

only did a lot of

38:59

people learn about this in

39:01

schools, but

39:04

also Afghanistan had

39:06

particular poetry

39:08

hulks or poetry circles and

39:10

meeting places where Sufi

39:13

poetry teachers would

39:16

teach on Sufi poetry. One

39:19

example, of course, is with the title

39:21

Wudjadi about whom I talk a lot

39:24

in that chapter that you mentioned, who

39:26

was also a public intellectual who stayed

39:30

for over five decades in

39:32

Kabul's public library and had a weekly

39:35

teaching circle, for example. It's

39:39

also teachers like him who, of

39:42

course, were wooed by

39:44

different governments who tried to

39:46

persuade him to maybe

39:48

take an official government job or

39:50

write in favor of the government.

39:52

So different governments in

39:55

Afghanistan were always very aware

39:57

of how important actually Sophie

40:01

poetry was and how much

40:03

it actually mattered. And

40:06

maybe one example that

40:09

is maybe also interesting in

40:11

terms of the dissemination and

40:13

also the differences over

40:17

various decades than in

40:19

how poetry was disseminated

40:21

and received is,

40:24

of course, some

40:26

of the collaborations that I

40:28

described in the book. So,

40:33

one example is the family

40:35

of the next one year, Sophie teacher, Kandy

40:38

Ara and his family, who

40:40

have been teaching and writing about mainly

40:42

Biddle de Hilarie, who

40:45

is a famous Sufi poet

40:47

as well, not regarded by everybody as a Sufi

40:49

poet but who is also

40:52

taught as a Sufi poet in

40:54

Afghanistan, and they collaborated

40:56

with Muhammad with Sarah

40:59

Hung, who is an

41:02

important and beloved musician

41:04

in Afghanistan, he was classically trained in

41:06

India, and he

41:08

was among the first and only

41:10

artists permitted to perform live on air when

41:13

radio Afghanistan was

41:16

established, and he then became

41:18

famous for using Biddle poetry.

41:22

And in turn also of course Biddle

41:24

poetry and Sufi poetry became widely known

41:26

through him. So, the dissemination to radio

41:28

through music through song, and then

41:31

as of people listening to it

41:33

and singing

41:35

it and receiving it in that way, we have

41:38

another aspect into thinking of

41:41

like how Sufi

41:43

poetry is a part of

41:45

everyday life as well in Afghanistan. So,

41:48

another theme that comes up

41:50

in the next chapter, which is the question

41:52

of female participation

41:54

and I guess gendered

41:56

participation in Sufi orders is to

41:58

be a part of the future of the world. especially the one that

42:00

you focus on in this chapter, the Kargariya. So

42:03

I was wondering if you could speak a

42:05

bit about, again, some of the ambivalence. I

42:07

mean, that is the fantastic thing about this

42:09

book, that each chapter basically presents to the

42:11

reader a set of both potentialities, but also

42:13

ambivalences, in relation to the theme that is

42:15

discussed. So here again, I was wondering if

42:18

you could speak a bit about some

42:20

of the discursive and institutional

42:22

means through which female

42:24

participation in Sufi orders is

42:27

legitimized, is authorized, and

42:29

again, what kinds of ambiguities and ambivalences

42:31

do we see in relation to that

42:34

question? Yeah,

42:36

this is a very good

42:38

question. So of course,

42:40

when I was researching, when I started

42:42

to research, I realized that a

42:45

lot of the Sufi orders were predominantly

42:47

male, as was

42:49

also the general public Sufi

42:52

sociosphere. And

42:54

there were, of course, women in informal

42:56

settings. Women were, of course, at shrines,

43:00

also in the sphere of the household. So there

43:02

was individual learning that was happening for women. But

43:05

I was wondering whether women

43:07

also were part of,

43:09

you know, particular Sufi orders, or

43:11

could even teach or elite thicker

43:14

circles as well. I

43:16

think most of the different

43:18

Sufi, larger than Sufi orders

43:20

where I went, there was

43:23

a general approach where the

43:26

teachers or members said like, oh, well,

43:28

women can come. And if they come,

43:31

they will be given the

43:33

appropriate space, we'll make space for them.

43:35

But it was not that I actually

43:37

found women as actively teaching. And

43:40

this was until I actually started

43:43

researching with this particular Kaidiriya Sufi

43:45

order with the Faizanis, where

43:48

women actually not only learned and studied,

43:51

but they also led thicker circles

43:53

and they recited the Quran, and

43:55

they were teaching Sufi insights also

43:57

to other female students. And

44:01

I got curious about how

44:05

it came about, that in

44:07

this particular Sufi order, one

44:11

would have women

44:13

teaching and what actually

44:15

supported that. And

44:18

the Sufi order on the

44:20

one hand had particular,

44:24

I would say contemporary community

44:26

practices that supported it, but

44:29

also a particular discourse about

44:32

gender or about women that

44:34

supported the inclusion of women

44:37

in teaching. And so

44:41

this actually anchors in

44:43

the founder's life, Alama

44:45

Saizani, who actively supported

44:48

the inclusion of women,

44:51

not only in learning but also actually in teaching. He

44:54

was very active in the 1950s and

44:56

1960s, and

44:59

he himself is often

45:01

regarded as a

45:04

kind of moral exemplar. So he

45:10

lived actually in Afghanistan at a

45:12

time when he was also very

45:14

politically active. He himself

45:17

got at some point imprisoned for his political

45:20

activities. I can't get into that right now

45:22

here, but read in the book. But

45:25

he was a very interesting scholar

45:27

and peer. He taught individual

45:29

lessons on Tafseer and Sufism

45:32

and also regular Thursday evening

45:34

classes on the Masnavi, on

45:37

Malana Rumi's work.

45:41

And he actually

45:43

also first included his wife.

45:46

He taught his wife to read and to

45:48

write, and then she actually began to give

45:50

literacy classes to other women, whom

45:53

she then also led in zikr circles. And

45:55

there are many stories and memories that are

45:57

connected to Alama Saizani that I've seen. are

46:00

shared concerning his conduct

46:02

with other scholars, his encounter later on

46:04

with prison inmates, whom he shared a

46:06

cell with, but also his conduct with

46:09

male and female Murids with students on

46:13

the Sufi path, who were part of the

46:15

community. And Al-Amagh

46:18

has championed a particular discourse

46:20

in his writing about the

46:22

spiritual path, which then

46:24

took root within the community as a

46:26

particular approach to understanding spirituality.

46:30

And one Murid summarized it

46:32

at some point to me in saying

46:34

that it's not about either being a

46:36

man or a woman on this path.

46:39

It's about being human. It's not

46:41

about the outer physical form that

46:45

determines our own spiritual path,

46:47

but it's about the rule, the soul

46:49

or spirit, the act, also

46:51

the wisdom or reason, and the heart

46:54

that needs to be trained. And

46:58

that actually wouldn't matter whether the

47:00

heart resides in a male or

47:02

a female body. And

47:04

this is, of course,

47:06

a departure from some approaches that

47:09

either sketch women as spiritually

47:12

inferior, or in contrast,

47:14

as being exceptionally singled out as

47:16

spiritual guides because of their gender

47:18

and experiences, for example, as mothers,

47:20

as we see in some other

47:22

Sufi orders. And

47:25

in contrast, here in this

47:28

community, actually, there is

47:30

a particular discourse that

47:32

spirituality transcends gender and should be

47:34

understand as a non-gendered human endeavor.

47:37

And so the own discourse of

47:40

gender equality in the spiritual realm

47:42

and also actually to some kind

47:44

of unimportance of gender as a

47:46

category on the spiritual path then

47:49

also justifies women participating, also

47:51

leading zikr, Quranic recitation, or

47:54

Islamic learning. And

47:56

in this way, the

47:58

whole discourse really focuses focuses on the

48:01

heart that is seen as

48:03

the training ground to adopt

48:05

particular postures and to train

48:09

to be actually a good Sufi, to

48:11

be a good believer as well. And

48:14

this has been also supported structurally

48:17

by what I would call male

48:19

allyship, so male teachers, male students

48:22

who also supported women on their

48:24

path and also accepted them as

48:26

spiritual equals as well. So

48:30

it's not only that there

48:32

is a generalized discourse but

48:34

also other community practices around

48:36

that then support this particular

48:38

approach. Finally,

48:40

I want to talk to you about the

48:42

sort of last substantive chapter which moves to

48:44

the context of Herat, which is another key

48:46

context in addition to Kabul for

48:49

this book. And you talk about a

48:51

certain succession debate among the Sufi community

48:53

and I was especially captivated

48:57

by ways in which this whole debate

48:59

about succession drew on and

49:02

involved dreams and onyric imagination.

49:05

Could you speak a bit about this debate

49:07

and the role of dreams and how this

49:09

debate unfolded? Yeah,

49:11

it's a complex debate actually.

49:15

So when I

49:17

came to Herat and started

49:20

researching and interviewing Murids,

49:22

so students in this

49:24

particular Sufi order, I

49:27

directly came into a

49:30

moment in

49:32

which there was a succession debate. So it

49:34

was already happening when I

49:36

met the different Sufi teachers and

49:39

students in that community. So

49:41

two years before I came to

49:44

Herat, the community had lost their

49:46

teacher and leader, P.R. Osman Maud

49:48

Udditishti. And initially

49:51

actually because His son was

49:53

still alive. most on the outside of

49:55

the group actually believed that he would

49:57

inherit the father's position. A

50:02

practicing of predatory am transmission

50:04

of and of positions as

50:06

both an but when I

50:08

talked with the members of

50:10

the group they actually did

50:12

neither see him as an

50:14

automatic successor to his father.

50:16

but actually they said that

50:18

it's pretty open of would

50:20

actually become the next sufi

50:22

at the next leader of

50:24

the community. And.

50:27

I'm so I ask them how

50:29

will it be decided? who will

50:31

be the next Am a teacher,

50:33

the next and leader in the

50:35

community and they said it would

50:37

be decided am through receiving a

50:39

dream of the Prophet Mohammad. And.

50:43

This. Was. Quite. Striking

50:46

to me. I mean, of

50:48

course I knew about the

50:50

general importance of dream. Within

50:52

Islam within you know most

50:54

excludes religious traditions and but

50:56

I have not actually heard

50:58

about this particular configuration of

51:00

using dream So beams of

51:02

course used to make many

51:04

decisions to their practices such

51:07

as it's too hot i

51:09

am did I used and

51:11

to induce stream so there's

51:13

a and session of in

51:15

Iraq and cleansing and preparing

51:17

and setting and attention to

51:19

then receive guidance to a

51:21

dream and which. Is practice

51:23

quite widely not only in Afghanistan

51:25

but also in the wider region

51:28

and and of course there is

51:30

also in a many a historic

51:32

presidents were and political leaders am

51:34

such as. after my found

51:37

in nineteenth century up until actually that

51:39

taliban leader mullah mine and ninety nine

51:41

it's justified then legitimacy as head of

51:44

the construction declaring divine dreamed had had

51:46

predicted death success but a lot of

51:48

that actually am has been a lot

51:51

of that has been kind of after

51:53

the fact so it's these are a

51:55

lot of times and diary said we

51:58

have or recordings or after

52:02

actually somebody has already taken up

52:04

leadership. So this kind of reversal

52:07

of having dreams as a

52:09

part of this practice of

52:12

figuring out who should be the next leader

52:15

was quite striking to me. And so how

52:18

this actually played out on

52:21

the one hand, it draws on particular

52:24

underlying cosmology

52:27

that dreams have this ability

52:29

to open up and in

52:31

between space, a

52:33

kind of bazaar. And in this

52:36

in between realm of consciousness, our

52:38

dreamers are more open to the

52:40

divine spirit, to also believe in

52:43

existence of the power of prophetic

52:45

dreams. So there's kind of

52:47

this openness for meetings. And

52:51

what happened in the community then is

52:53

that two of the

52:56

community teachers or two

52:58

of the community students were also at the

53:00

same time teaching in the community. They

53:03

published a book about their own

53:06

community, kind of like a history of

53:09

their own community. And

53:11

in the book, they detailed actually a

53:14

lot of instances in

53:16

which the dream had

53:18

established certain decisions and

53:22

had actually impacted the constitution

53:24

of the community itself, their

53:27

practices and many different ways

53:29

how they were

53:31

deciding on

53:35

particular decision making matters.

53:37

And when they published

53:39

this community history, so this

53:42

was self published and then

53:44

also distributed in

53:47

Herat, for example, to the Ulama

53:49

council or to also what was

53:51

established at the time in Herat,

53:53

which was so-called Sufi council, which

53:55

was a council of different Sufi

53:57

groups in this civic civil society

53:59

space. It

54:01

kind of started a conversation

54:03

about whether to decide

54:07

on a leader through dreams or

54:10

how leadership should be

54:12

decided on in the first place. It

54:17

started this conversation about that. And in

54:20

actually then seeing how that unfolded,

54:22

it was very interesting in seeing

54:24

these processes. On the one hand,

54:26

between the authors of this particular

54:28

book and other people within

54:31

the community who also saw

54:33

the book itself as a kind

54:35

of litmus test for

54:39

potentially the authors as

54:41

a kind of candidacy for leadership. But

54:44

also then within the wider community. And

54:47

what was interesting there was the

54:49

wider Sufi community. So outside of

54:52

the Sufi order. And here,

54:55

for example, the Sufi council and

54:57

the different other Sufi community, Sufi

54:59

orders, Sufi gathering places also

55:02

discussed the book and also had

55:05

discussions about whether

55:08

this was actually a right way to decide

55:10

on a leader. And

55:12

there was also criticism leveled

55:15

against the community. But

55:17

interestingly, not against the

55:20

mechanism, not against using

55:22

dreams to decide for

55:24

leadership, but only

55:26

about the fact that at that point

55:28

in time, no leader had

55:30

been decided yet. Because

55:33

basically a lot of the other

55:36

Sufi teachers saw it as

55:39

being wrongful for a Sufi

55:41

order to be without leadership.

55:44

So what was interesting in this whole navigation

55:48

of this moment in which there

55:50

was no leadership was

55:52

actually that dreams with

55:54

a particular place within Islamic Orthodoxy

55:56

and within the cultural history of

55:59

Afghanistan had a very firm

56:01

place, even in such

56:03

a really insecure and difficult

56:05

moment for this community. So

56:09

it was actually a mechanism, a method that

56:12

the community could draw upon for

56:15

decision making, even though there was

56:17

this contestation about what it then

56:19

would mean in terms of who

56:21

would become the next leader.

56:24

Sufi's civility, religious authority and

56:26

political change in Afghanistan by

56:28

Professor Anika Schmidding, published

56:31

by Stanford University Press in 2024. Thank

56:33

you so much

56:35

Anika for this outstanding book and for

56:37

your time in talking about it with

56:40

such insight and clarity. I

56:42

really appreciate you being on the New Books Network. Thank

56:45

you so much for having me. So this was

56:48

my conversation with Professor Anika Schmidding

56:50

on her wonderful new book, Sufi's

56:52

Civilities. I hope you enjoyed

56:54

this episode of New Books in Islamic

56:56

Studies, which operates online through the New

56:58

Books Network. This

57:01

is your host, Sheer Al-Etareen, signing off.

57:03

Take care, stay well and keep listening

57:06

to NBIS New

57:08

Books in Islamic Studies. Bye.