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1:01

everybody! This Marshall poll on the editor to

1:03

the New Books Network and the like tell

1:05

you that we have a new and improved

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visit the site today. Welcome

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to the New Books Network! Hello!

1:35

Welcome to the No Books No, I'm your

1:37

host Stephen Sicko. My next

1:39

guest will be Kevin P. Real and

1:42

we will be discussing his book The

1:44

Russian Fsb A concise history of the

1:46

Federal Security Service. Published. By

1:48

Georgetown University Press and Twenty Twenty

1:50

Four. Kevin. P. Real is

1:53

a lecturer in Intelligence and Security

1:55

Studies at Brunel University. What. He.

1:57

Also spent over thirty years in the Us.

1:59

Gov. As a counter Intelligence and.

2:04

Ah Kevin A Real are what to

2:06

the new Books network? Thank

2:09

you thank you! Heard the or invitation. Yes

2:11

we're is like the begin Our interviews by

2:13

asking are just tell us a little bit

2:15

about yourself and what's the back story behind

2:18

reading this book? Of

2:20

I. Retired. From the

2:23

Us Government. Two Thousand Twenty

2:25

Two. After thirty years careers

2:27

as mostly a counter Intelligence

2:29

analyst and during that time

2:31

I. Work. The number

2:33

of different issues of Not Just

2:35

Russia I began my career as.

2:38

A Russian linguist and

2:40

that. Into

2:43

Dude in my interest in

2:45

Russian Intelligence activities through my

2:47

whole career. Up to

2:50

my retirement two thousand twenty one

2:52

I also conduct as to did

2:54

of academic work both a master's

2:56

degree and then my pitch teeth

2:58

related to. A Russian

3:00

Intelligence when your son university.

3:04

Announced. They were gonna be doing a series

3:06

of books. On. Individual

3:08

when told services. I

3:11

expressed interest and they accepted the

3:13

offer to. Write.

3:15

The volume on the Fsb. there will

3:18

be several other the other volumes of

3:20

other until the services coming out in

3:22

the series. Of the rather than

3:24

major until the services of world Cia M

3:26

I Six Massage Those are things. I

3:29

had the privilege of writing the Fsb volume

3:32

so. That's and I

3:34

also. Few years

3:36

ago was carrying a.

3:39

A a master's thesis that the

3:41

National Intelligence University United States. Where.

3:45

The student wanted right on the

3:47

Federal Federal Reserve's. And

3:49

there really wasn't a text

3:51

to direct so that students.

3:54

To. Look up. There. Were a

3:56

number of books. Out there the talked about various

3:58

aspects the of as. The like.

4:01

I'm. Sold. Out of in

4:03

border guns the new nobility. but

4:05

there was no book on the

4:08

Fsb itself. And so.

4:10

I was interested in trying to

4:13

tackle that problem and that's when

4:15

led me here. Now

4:18

what type of sources were you

4:20

able to use for this or

4:22

cause? Obviously it can be a

4:24

little difficult finding especially Russian sources

4:26

up on this matter can it.

4:29

Actually, Russian sources were easier to

4:31

find an English sources nuts because.

4:34

The. Russians. Meet. Them

4:36

Russian media talk for the been about

4:38

the Fsb. And. There

4:40

are even. A job announcements

4:43

out there for Fsb positions the

4:45

give some idea about how the

4:47

Fsb works and health organized in

4:49

addition to those Russian media sources

4:51

about which this quite a bit.

4:54

But. Also Russian dissident sources. Rather,

4:57

The organizations such as The Duffy

4:59

Center and I'm The and I'm

5:02

So.of Oregon who have and our

5:04

website that discusses the organization? the

5:06

Fsb. it's. Between.

5:09

Those two different sets of sources.

5:11

Russian media sources and the decision

5:13

source of the broad. There's obviously

5:15

a lot of an era lot

5:17

of Gap. And

5:19

the Da Vinci disagree on

5:21

focus quite a bit. so

5:24

there's a need then to

5:26

find the center of between

5:28

them. The media sources

5:30

tend to be more pro Russian.

5:33

The of is not surprising. The

5:35

decision sources are much more of

5:37

criticize critic critical of the Fsb.

5:39

It's so finding the middle ground

5:41

between them is something that had

5:43

to do in the in the

5:45

use of those Russian sources. Most

5:47

of the sources in the book

5:49

are Russian. Of

5:52

there's a few English language sources

5:54

particularly discussing some operations and Sub

5:56

became. Known

5:58

in the west, but. Most of

6:00

the Russian so and that surprisingly.

6:03

There. There's a lot of good information about

6:05

the of as be. In Russian

6:07

sources. Now

6:10

for any of our listeners who have

6:12

are not as familiar with the Fsb

6:14

or post Soviet Russian Intelligence, could you

6:17

give us like a brief introduction to

6:19

what the up as be is, what

6:21

are it's been No duties. Yeah.

6:25

This is Russia's primary internal.

6:27

Security Service. In.

6:29

That time to that large umbrella

6:31

of internal security. there are a

6:33

number of major functions. It

6:36

is a law enforcement organization for

6:38

numb. First of all, it is

6:41

responsible for the investigation and fans.

6:43

I'm prosecution of a number of.

6:46

Of violations of feminism, the

6:48

national violations within the Russian

6:50

law enforcement systems, the little

6:53

things like. Terrorism. Related.

6:56

Offences And tell them Cameron told

6:58

us and Canada espionage related. But.

7:01

As well in addition to that

7:03

sir fraud and economic crimes. And

7:06

Immigration Crimes. And.

7:10

Customs and smuggling crimes.

7:12

So it has a

7:14

broad range of. Law

7:17

enforcement functions that it can

7:19

use to achieve it's overall

7:22

mission of internal security and

7:24

some fans as politically securing

7:26

the was even Poussin regime.

7:30

It. Is Russia's primary counter

7:32

intelligence service. And.

7:34

That is has both a law enforcement. And

7:37

a broader operation full. A

7:39

function. I'm catching

7:42

spies, but also infiltrating.

7:45

Foreign. Intelligence Services similar to

7:47

the Kgb second shift directorate

7:49

during the Soviet era, and

7:52

it inherited most. Of.

7:54

What was the Kgb Second Shift? Read

7:56

through, It also

7:59

has. the other i kind of

8:01

tones related functions. Something.

8:03

Called Economic Counter Intelligence

8:05

which basically means protecting

8:08

the Russian economy. But

8:11

in that the same time that

8:13

also means of enforcing. A

8:15

high number of. Fraud.

8:18

And regulatory economic regulars.

8:20

Who are you laws

8:23

that. Fall.

8:25

Under a the Russians system

8:27

calls Counter Intelligence. Service.

8:29

It, it's it's It Also is

8:32

Russia's primary. It is Russia's border

8:34

agency border guard agency. That

8:36

has a law enforcement function

8:38

but also with has a

8:41

and insults operational function. And

8:44

it has a cover smuggling function

8:46

and all of those. Missions

8:49

are combine as into the

8:51

ruff ruff as be border

8:54

guards service. So it it

8:56

has a wide range of

8:59

responsibilities and. In. A In

9:01

the end it is. Really? The most

9:03

powerful and is security service

9:05

in Russia. Now.

9:09

Premiere. Last answer, it sounds like

9:11

it's primarily concerned with internal security,

9:13

but it also has some foreign

9:15

intelligence. What is the contrast between

9:17

the Up as B A B

9:19

S U P R if you

9:21

can quickly people does have one

9:23

tells for some responsibility as much

9:26

so that foreign intelligence responsibility actually

9:28

is conducted from Russian territory not

9:30

exclusively been a great a large

9:32

portion of it because. Of

9:34

the Fsb has access

9:36

to a communications channels

9:38

within Russia. Of

9:40

there is a. Pale. The

9:43

legal system through which the Fsb

9:45

can intercept. Communications. Crossings

9:48

through of up with from

9:50

crossing Russian cables and a

9:52

number of international tables crops

9:54

Russian territory. And. Because

9:56

of that recent or so huge.

10:00

Had access to a lot

10:02

of communications that transit the

10:04

world. In addition to

10:06

that, Hum, the

10:08

Fsb is the primary respond

10:11

every agency responsible for collecting

10:13

intelligence within the former Soviet

10:15

Space. including.

10:17

Within the non Russian republics

10:20

of the former Soviet space

10:22

which. Will. For any other

10:24

country would be foreign intelligence. For.

10:27

Roger. The. Former Soviet

10:29

space is. Also. Partially

10:32

considered. Is still

10:34

domestic territory. It's

10:36

somewhat of a indicator of. How Russia

10:38

views the sovereignty. It's of those

10:41

post Soviet states that stuff. She

10:43

sees them as still an internal

10:45

security matter. And

10:47

so the Fsb has that primary

10:50

responsibility within that former Soviet space.

10:52

And that's why Death as be

10:54

A So. Active.

10:56

In places like. I'm.

10:59

The Baltic States, Ukraine, Of

11:01

it also in Armenia. The. Fsb

11:04

have to look for dinner for a number

11:06

of years after the dissolution of the Soviet

11:08

Union. Continue. To run

11:11

border services in several states.

11:14

Including projects done in Kyrgyzstan.

11:17

And only recently the Armenian government.

11:20

Asked the Russian government that

11:22

has been to remove border

11:24

guards from the international airports

11:26

in here, you've on our

11:29

media. That. Those are

11:31

off foreign activities as far as.

11:33

The. Russian Federation is concerned,

11:36

but if they're also.

11:39

I'm. On. The.

11:41

Method Internal Security functions

11:43

as the Russian government

11:45

sees them. Now.

11:49

What are some of the foundations or

11:51

be up as beats now in the

11:53

west? Of course the both the Soviet

11:55

legacy of the Kg be. Is

11:57

one source, but. Also.

12:00

Many people don't realize, but the

12:02

Czarist regime had it's own intelligence.

12:05

Agency be all crimes and that

12:07

is also a source of inspiration.

12:10

For. The Fsb hundred line in

12:12

explain how the To legacies kind

12:14

of mingle with the Fsb. I.

12:17

Would add a third like a feature that night

12:19

owl explained that the second but that the. The

12:22

Kgb is a major force.

12:25

For. Tradition. For.

12:27

Operations for structure even

12:29

for some personal within

12:31

the Fsb today seethed.

12:33

Certainly cannot understand the

12:35

Fsb today without looking

12:37

at the Kgb. But.

12:41

In. This post Soviet era. The

12:45

pre bolshevik A for on

12:47

as you describe has become

12:49

also an object of emulation.

12:52

Something. That never would have

12:54

been acceptable during the soviet

12:56

era. To. Look back at

12:58

seats the bourgeois. Free. Bolsheviks

13:01

security service but in

13:03

the. That. As be

13:05

era. The others fsb.

13:08

Honors. Those people. Who

13:10

were in the the both the

13:13

pre Bolshevik, the Czarist era security

13:15

service to the point where they.

13:18

Publish. Their writings. They

13:20

discuss them in official

13:22

Fsb did I'm publications.

13:25

And. They hold them up as. As

13:28

a objects of emulation. Because.

13:31

They. Got

13:34

back and now it's to

13:36

put as at least as

13:38

much to the imperial era

13:41

of Russia as they do

13:43

to the Soviet era in

13:45

some ways actually harked back

13:47

more to the Imperial era

13:49

and and puts in has

13:51

very ominous ostentatiously. And visibly

13:53

it's taken on the trappings.

13:56

Of the of of the Imperial

13:58

Air of Russia. And.

14:02

Part. Of that includes looking back

14:04

to that a security service

14:06

but also and another force.

14:08

In that. That to.

14:11

Make Up of the Fsb Today.

14:13

Is. The. Decade of the

14:16

Ninety Nine Days. That's

14:18

also post Soviet army for other

14:21

outside the soviet era. That.

14:24

The at a period when Russia

14:26

was. In Chaos. Russia

14:29

attempted. To make

14:31

it them a transition to

14:34

them of democracy but didn't

14:36

really succeed. On

14:38

russian would to was

14:41

able politically. I'm

14:43

it was unstable militarily as

14:45

it font. A an

14:48

internal war with sections and in

14:50

the Ninety Nine is at least

14:52

I'm was that of a very

14:54

quite poorly in that war. And.

14:57

It was unstable economically. As.

15:01

I'm. The. The Russian

15:04

currency as it defaulted.

15:07

A Or the Russian economy. A Russian

15:09

government defaulted on it's loans and I

15:11

tonight yates. I'm I'm.

15:13

On the her has that

15:16

damaging the currency value. And.

15:18

Then the. Have.

15:21

They sell off of the

15:24

Soviet era industries to what.

15:27

What through the woods than

15:29

created The oligarchy in Russia

15:31

all agree on cruises environments

15:33

and more in which Russia

15:35

was. Was. A

15:37

was is the paid. A

15:39

period of chaos and in

15:41

a period of chaos and

15:43

the Fsb today remember that

15:45

very well. Although

15:48

many the senior leaders did begin their careers

15:50

and the Kgb era in that case be

15:53

are still is an item of of pride

15:55

for them. That. Dedicated.

15:58

Than eighty nineties is and air

16:00

of humiliation. And.

16:02

That humiliation of something that

16:05

drives Fsb leaders today. To.

16:07

Make sure that that never happens again. And.

16:10

So. On offer those

16:13

arrows pre bolshevik. Soviet.

16:15

Era and the post Soviet

16:17

Nine. These have an impact

16:20

on how Ss beats views

16:22

it's own role in Russia

16:25

today. Now.

16:28

How would be up as be today

16:30

compared to the old. Soviet.

16:33

Kgb interview.

16:38

Since. About two thousand for.

16:41

The. Fsb has read accumulated

16:43

most of the functions their

16:45

work in the Kgb during

16:48

the Soviet era. This. Six

16:51

main exceptions to that, they

16:53

are. The our

16:55

foreign intelligence the best. Primary

16:58

for in told us that Str

17:00

which is a Kgb remnants is

17:02

well the it's heir to the

17:05

first keep track of the Kgb.

17:08

And. Then also the a simulated

17:10

security and political security of

17:12

the president. Which. Is

17:14

in the Federal Protective Service

17:17

which also is the error

17:19

to several Kgb directors. The

17:21

nine structure in the fifteenth

17:23

directorate which were responsible for

17:26

seated was curious and also

17:28

for. I'm before our

17:30

security of a high value of

17:33

facilities in Russia Us but then

17:35

also it hasn't the that this

17:37

of the episode the Federal Protective

17:39

Service Alpha. he has a sitter

17:41

actress from the Kgb which was

17:43

responsible for government's stance security, government

17:46

communications. All. Except

17:48

those couple of exceptions. Are.

17:51

Now within the Fsb. That.

17:54

Was not the case nineteen nineties.

17:56

however when the app as well

17:58

when the Kgb. The dissolved at

18:01

the end of the soviet era.

18:04

They dissolved in some. Disgrace

18:07

because the last Kgb

18:09

director was. Of was

18:11

one of the participants in a attempted

18:14

coup on because got but shop in

18:16

August Nineteen Eighty One. So.

18:18

The Efforts: There are many people in

18:20

Russia who were calling for the complete

18:22

dismantling of the Kgb Sisk. That

18:25

bill away with it and

18:27

start from scratch similar to

18:29

how other Eastern European countries

18:31

did such as Poland. All

18:33

six days said separate public.

18:37

And. The. Fsb today

18:39

actually looks back that periods as. Thank.

18:41

Goodness we never did that. We. Didn't

18:43

scrap all of the old Kgb

18:46

and start from scratch. But.

18:48

At the time, there were many calls for

18:50

the Russian government to do that, even within

18:53

the Russian population. And. By

18:55

about to about ninety ninety four,

18:57

what was the Kgb had been

18:59

divided into five pieces. I'm

19:02

the to that message earlier that. The.

19:05

Foreign soldiers was and one the

19:08

Zealand security was another. Border guards

19:10

were in a separate simpli separate

19:12

agency. And Stig

19:14

ins and Outs. Telecommunications Security was

19:17

in a separate agency as well

19:19

as for the Federal Agency Ports

19:21

Govern Communications and Information or Fab

19:24

See as it was called. Those

19:27

agencies. Existed for the

19:29

next about ten year for about ninety

19:32

ninety four to two thousand for roughly

19:34

within that period. And.

19:37

That also became part of the chaos

19:39

the nineties because they fought with each

19:42

other for but for budgets. They.

19:44

Fought for predominance with the president.

19:47

They spot to be the most loyal

19:49

to the president in some cases. And.

19:55

In. Nineteen Ninety Seven. Ninety Notes. Or

19:57

Ninety Ninety Eight Ninety Nine. A

19:59

Row. The Unknown. Former.

20:02

Kgb Lieutenant Colonel. Name

20:04

was even putting with name the Director of

20:06

the F as be. And.

20:09

He saw that. Interagency

20:12

rivalry. And.

20:14

He saw the. Ah,

20:16

the corruption that was beginning to

20:18

build within the Russian system. And.

20:23

When. He was booked the next. Year name's acting

20:25

president and then in two thousand eight

20:27

was named was was elected as former

20:29

president. Two thousand was electors former president.

20:33

He. Would. Begin

20:36

the effort to. Read

20:39

but some for really put the put the

20:41

puzzle back together again. And.

20:43

So that then led to

20:46

that two thousand four timeframe

20:48

when all those pieces were

20:50

again together. Then

20:52

they look similar. Their missions

20:55

or similar. There was

20:57

only one part of your Kgb that

20:59

was done away with completely. In.

21:02

Nineteen Ninety Two and that was

21:04

what was called of at direct

21:06

from. The fifth Directorate

21:08

was responsible for what in the

21:10

Soviet her, was called ideological Counter

21:12

Intelligence, which essentially meant. Pursuing.

21:15

This is. The pursuing

21:17

opposition from within the country. When.

21:20

Putting with drugs for the Fsb in the late

21:22

nineties and and became. Though. The prime

21:24

minister than that the acting president. He.

21:28

Began the process of.

21:31

Recreating. That.

21:33

Same. Organization. Which

21:35

at the end of the soviet era was renamed.

21:38

The Director for The Protection

21:40

the Constitution, And

21:42

and a director was a similar name.

21:45

Was. Recreate his. And.

21:47

Nineteen Ninety Nine. And

21:50

then. There was that. Became

21:54

later Earth's The Assist Directorate

21:56

of. The year they

21:58

have has been so. But

22:01

up to knit of then almost

22:03

every piece, Of the

22:05

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Now. One major difference, of course,

22:44

between the Fsb in the Kgb

22:46

are some of the ideological drivers

22:48

behind it's operations cause. The.

22:50

Kgb of course. They were guided

22:52

by. Communist ideology, Marxism

22:55

Leninism. But you mention in

22:57

the Fsb up in the

22:59

books that it's driven by

23:01

several different other factors like

23:04

russia, nationalism, A Russian

23:06

Orthodoxy and also conservative. Ideology,

23:08

woods and Away makes it more

23:11

aligned with the old or crown

23:13

out despite tsar. but I guess.

23:16

President. Putin kind of full fill

23:18

that void. But can you explain

23:20

how. These. Factors operate with

23:22

the Fsb. Of

23:24

so in your your your equivalency back

23:27

to the restaurant is is is accurate

23:29

and that is one of the things

23:31

it does dross that Czarist era. Into.

23:34

The Fsb today. It's is

23:36

that return of. A.

23:40

Are they! I'm had

23:42

a religious and and

23:44

and conservative view within

23:46

the Fsb. Obviously.

23:48

During the soviet era. Religion.

23:51

Was a forbidden aspect to

23:53

stick to charities and said

23:56

ss of as if a

23:58

Kgb officer hat. A.

24:01

Child baptize which they are a

24:03

few hoops risk to the possibility

24:05

of doing that. It could. Be the

24:07

end of their career. In.

24:10

The post Soviet era, it

24:12

is now an overt parent.

24:14

Russian. Orthodox and over parts.

24:17

Of the Fsb to the point where

24:19

it's. When in said

24:21

he knew chapel. A

24:23

whole lot Russian orthodox. Church.

24:27

Was dedicated. On.

24:29

The ground of the Fsb Academy. It

24:32

worth the Russian Orthodox

24:34

Patriarch Kirill, who dedicated.

24:38

There is a strong sense

24:41

of the Fsb now protecting.

24:44

The Earth, The

24:46

The Christian Nature.

24:48

Of. Russian. National

24:51

Pride. And. That

24:54

began even before puts him. Of.

24:58

Another aspect of the

25:00

Fsb is that loyalty

25:02

to. The. Country's leader. as

25:05

opposed to loyalties and a. And

25:08

that began with yeah said before putting

25:10

came along. Of Yeltsin

25:13

demanded. Loyalty from his state

25:15

security service. And

25:17

when there were directors who. Dared

25:21

to not show complete.

25:24

A loyalty to yes and he basically

25:26

has the best. He had them removed.

25:29

And so he. He's a

25:32

fabulous the. The

25:34

expectation that the Fsb is

25:36

completely loyal to the president.

25:39

And back from the turn of the

25:42

orthodoxy has come as puts him has

25:44

become the present has now been that

25:46

and the problem for twenty four years.

25:49

And. For. Those.

25:52

Poor two things combined. that almost

25:54

bizarre like think sure of puts

25:57

him in. Not really he wouldn't

25:59

admit. Being a Czar, he would he

26:01

would. He would deny that was intense.

26:04

But. In many

26:06

ways he has taken that

26:08

role. And. That.

26:11

Connection to Russian Orthodox seats.

26:13

Are are directly related. To each

26:15

other And as you mentioned they then

26:18

bring that. That. Is

26:20

Czarist era. Can

26:23

have it's a philosophy back

26:26

into state security. Now.

26:29

Are their direct liaison between the

26:31

Fsb and the Russian Orthodox. Church.

26:34

Sure, More. Than what you just

26:37

mentioned. Why? Them it's

26:39

in the of it and they

26:41

track. Curiel talks very positively about

26:43

the patriotism of the Fsb. That.

26:47

The when other thing is similar to the soviet

26:49

era. Is that in

26:51

some ways the Fsb does pursue

26:53

religion. A

26:55

River pursues religion that it

26:58

sees as foreign of is

27:00

particularly focused on religion such

27:02

as Jos Witnesses and Scientology

27:04

which are outlawed. In

27:06

Russia as foreign organizations. As for

27:09

an agency, The. Fsb

27:11

pursues those religions. As.

27:14

As. I'm. A threat to

27:16

Russia. But it for

27:19

also presumes anyone who. Speaks

27:23

negatively about the Russian Orthodox

27:25

Church. So. It's

27:27

investigators. Aspect since

27:29

investigative capabilities are. Have

27:32

used to protect. The. Russian

27:35

Orthodox Church. And

27:37

in also. Pursues.

27:41

Any opposition ist. Who.

27:45

Ah, Advocates for the

27:47

any any policies that

27:50

are not in line.

27:52

with the russian of view of

27:54

conservatism but they beat religious policy.

27:56

Their family related policies whatever it

27:58

is though are. This is

28:01

who advocate for those

28:03

policies are also the

28:05

targets of Fsb investigation,

28:07

so. It then

28:09

is a good kind of falls directly

28:11

into. The Apis these priorities. Now

28:15

another part of the others d

28:17

Makeup is what you call beat

28:20

the check His mindset of course

28:22

checkers is a. Reference. To

28:24

be checked out which was the

28:26

very early ah, the first incarnation

28:28

of Soviet soldiers founded by Felix,

28:30

that of Shinskie. In the

28:32

immediate aftermath of the October Revolution.

28:34

Of course, checkers kind of became

28:37

all a slang term for anyone

28:39

involved in the Kgb or Russian

28:41

Intelligence. But what is this? Check

28:43

his mindset that. You. Talk about

28:46

and book! That. Is

28:48

one thing that he directly from

28:50

the Soviet era. During.

28:53

His so the era. Because. Of

28:55

the ideological view that. That.

28:57

Capitalists world was is circling.

29:01

The. Soviet Union and was trying

29:03

to destroy the Soviet Union. That

29:05

was the the ideological message that

29:07

the Soviet states of the Soviet

29:09

system com. Or. Trade. Any.

29:14

Incidents of. Opposition.

29:18

To the Russian the the

29:20

Soviet government. Was. Seen

29:22

as. As Foreign

29:24

sponsored. So. That meant

29:26

that anyone who spoke out against. The

29:28

Soviet regime was claimed to be

29:31

a tool. Of the

29:33

outside of the capitalist. World

29:36

They were capitalist infiltrators

29:38

into the Soviet system.

29:42

And that then allowed the Soviet.

29:44

State. Security System to. Enter

29:47

and exit in a pure ideological

29:49

sense to count for that opposition.

29:52

But. In the other side. I'm

29:55

on on. Any

29:58

western. A activity.

30:02

And he knew I wasn't told activity. Or

30:04

Western Even political activity was seen

30:06

as an attempt to destroy the

30:09

Soviet Union. So. The

30:11

Sec East mindset is the

30:13

combining of those to external

30:15

and internal into. Invariably.

30:19

A single entity. They

30:21

are always connected. And

30:23

we see that now with people like Alex. In

30:26

a violent who obviously. Wasn't

30:28

would die just a few weeks ago. The.

30:31

Russian government claims he was

30:33

a tool of the West.

30:36

The. Any opposition that see gave to

30:39

the puts in regime. Was

30:41

just because. A Foreign

30:43

intelligence service was telling for the do it. That.

30:47

Diminished. Him in the eyes

30:49

of Russians. Least. The

30:51

I was the goal of doing it because. The.

30:54

Russians could see him as. A.

30:57

An infiltrator of from the enemy.

30:59

Not. As a. A

31:02

I'm. A loyal

31:04

Russian citizen who was trying to.

31:07

To. Practice. Just fum. Support

31:10

Russian patriotism or the

31:13

Russian State. The

31:16

just read the last few days.

31:19

A group that is. Housed

31:23

in in Ukraine but

31:25

as conducted. Attacks.

31:27

Into Russian territory with with

31:29

both Fum assume some or

31:31

armor attacks as well as

31:33

drone attacks. Made.

31:37

Makes the claim that they are doing this.

31:39

Because. Of the Russian patriotism,

31:42

they're not anti Russian. They're anti

31:44

puts him. So.

31:46

They are trying to portray themselves

31:48

as being not a tool. Of.

31:50

The What. And. Ukrainian government.

31:53

Says we have nothing to do with them.

31:55

they're doing is on their own. This is

31:57

there a patriotic duty to perform. Russian

32:00

government, on the other hand, says

32:02

they are purely. Tools. The the

32:04

west. And. Anyone who opposes

32:06

the putting regime today. Must.

32:09

Be sponsored by. I

32:12

phone service. So. That

32:14

such his mindset combines those

32:16

two forces, the internal opposition

32:19

and the external. Covert.

32:21

Action. Into one

32:23

for always coupled. With

32:26

how it was viewed during the soviet era,

32:29

And. That of how a few today

32:31

and that really is that se

32:33

mindsets that really good grew up.

32:36

Around. Not a in

32:39

the linen era. And. Continue

32:41

throughout the entire Soviet era. Into

32:43

the post Soviet. Yeah,

32:46

they're really reached the site down

32:48

under Stalin with both Great Purges,

32:50

some were even many members of

32:52

all communist party were being killed

32:54

off because they're supposedly spies of

32:56

the west or special in Nazi

32:59

Germany. A spare absolutely

33:01

spending to be Germany could be written.

33:03

it could be Japan in the in

33:05

the purchase people were accused of being

33:07

spies for any of those for an

33:09

interface. And. Some of those has

33:11

been I was allegations were ludicrous. On

33:14

the surface, but. If

33:17

you could claim someone was a

33:19

foreign spy, Said. Anything

33:21

they said against the regime.

33:24

Could. Be thus, Tainted.

33:27

As for and in a foreign

33:29

and I'm. A

33:33

minute relations and so. That

33:36

allowed any opposition to

33:38

be seen as. As

33:40

a foreign tool and that

33:42

then continues today. Now

33:46

one of the major. Ah,

33:49

Activities of Yep as be as

33:51

you mentioned earlier as Counterintelligence. How

33:53

does it usually conduct these types

33:55

of operations? As far as we

33:57

can. Tell. From the sources.

34:00

You had a real blood. Cells.

34:02

Several types of counterintelligence in

34:04

the Russian system. one is

34:06

traditional caress bills, Identifying

34:09

foreign intelligence operations, neutralizing

34:12

them, Through. Arrest or

34:14

through double agent operations. And

34:17

just. Opera operating against

34:19

born until the services. Another

34:22

type of military counterintelligence which as

34:24

actually a separate entity within the

34:27

Fsb. It has been so since

34:29

Sept. How days and Nineteen eighteen

34:31

when the Special Section as were

34:33

created. And were then combined

34:36

under the it's a Car and then

34:38

the a Jeep You and and subsequent

34:40

under the Kgb it's. As

34:42

the thirties Directorate that still continues

34:44

today as a separate elements of

34:47

Counter Intelligence and it's mission is

34:49

to prevent. Any. Foreign penetrations

34:51

of the military it's and also to.

34:54

Monitor. The loyalty of

34:56

military members to ensure that

34:58

no one is tempted. To.

35:03

Fill any secrets to a foreign

35:05

state, Or to.

35:08

Become an opposition ist to that the

35:10

put in regime. Another

35:12

type of his economic kind of told them

35:14

it's early and that's essentially a regulatory men

35:16

miss and worth. It it

35:19

is directed at preventing threats.

35:22

Or. Are met neutralizing threats

35:24

to the Russian economy. Which.

35:26

Is very closely tied to Rush National

35:29

Security. Me: The Russian after

35:31

skirt he is is. Connected.

35:34

To. The economic

35:36

drivers of Russia us

35:38

particularly Petrochemical, the petrochemical

35:40

industry, and and I'm

35:42

minerals industries. Those. Economic

35:45

industries are so important that they

35:47

are considered a major elements of

35:49

the national security. So let's not

35:51

unlike other countries, other countries also

35:54

strategic, some. Streak. Economic

35:56

some aspects but economic

35:58

hundred total you to

36:00

protect the economic well

36:02

being. And. Then there's still

36:04

there's again back in the Fsb

36:07

today, the concept of ideological counter

36:09

intelligence. which means. I'm.

36:12

Protecting. The regime from

36:14

opposition. All of those.

36:17

Are. Both law enforcement

36:19

and operational missions. Law

36:22

enforcement meaning. That.

36:24

They can be. They can lead to

36:26

arrests and prosecutions. In. Court.

36:29

But. They can also be operational. Which means

36:31

that the effort he will. Will.

36:34

Endeavour to penetrate, Any.

36:36

Organization. That

36:39

in views as a potential

36:41

counterintelligence thread. Or

36:43

intelligence thread from any of those

36:45

counter that years. And

36:48

it will. Use. A

36:51

bullet human or technologic

36:54

tech, not technical penetrations

36:56

to. Monitor the

36:58

activities. And. To potentially manipulate

37:01

and drive the of the

37:03

activities in a direction of

37:05

our in Russia's interests or

37:07

and not really start against

37:09

Russia's interests. That. Often

37:11

means. Recruiting. People inside

37:13

those organizations. Who. Can.

37:16

Ah, monitor for the activities of

37:19

others them activities of their colleagues.

37:21

Often thought something that. The.

37:24

Care A speed A method the and that

37:26

the Epa speeds. And heritage both from the

37:28

Kgb or and. From. The A from here

37:30

are the affirmative that also extensively. For.

37:33

Recruiting Russians to monitor

37:36

other Russians. Is.

37:39

A. Major Counter

37:41

Intelligence Method. I'm

37:44

and. Identifying individuals

37:46

who are potentially threats.

37:50

And. Then. Coercing. Them or

37:52

persuading them in some way. To.

37:54

Work. For the Fsb

37:57

rather than against the Russian government, I

38:00

had to to penetrate. The organization

38:02

is a major. Ah

38:04

method that the Fsb uses.

38:08

It as the also. Obviously. Has.

38:10

The. Access to communications systems within

38:13

Russia. So. It can

38:15

monitor. The. Activities of.

38:18

On a threats in any of those

38:20

factors. And it

38:22

uses that extensively. To.

38:25

Of mitigate the threats and any of

38:27

those for ten or until various sorts.

38:30

Of. You. You see that? And

38:33

things like. When an

38:35

individual. Or is this is

38:37

the target of what's called a prophylactic.

38:40

Operation. Which means an F, a speedy

38:42

officer, or a pair of group of officers

38:44

will knock on the individual door. And.

38:46

Say you know what? We. See that

38:48

you are. Doing something that. We

38:52

think are going in a bad direction.

38:54

Maybe. You're involved in. An

38:57

opposition ist. Website. Or

39:00

maybe you are. I'm.

39:02

On. Having. Eager conducting

39:05

too much. You haven't

39:07

too much into our interaction

39:09

with a suspicious foreigner. Or

39:11

maybe. You. Do

39:13

but have expressed anti

39:15

regime. Abdel Fattah

39:18

sentiments in your

39:20

communications. So. We've

39:22

heard that. We. Her that

39:24

through our perception of

39:26

your communications. So.

39:28

We suggest that you stop doing it. And

39:31

you can either stop or will

39:33

will. Fill. Up from

39:36

prosecute you. And

39:38

those prophylactic conversation. Or.

39:41

Something that were com and during the

39:43

soviet era. And they

39:45

have come back into the Fsb

39:47

today as a way of trying

39:50

to. Physically. Nip opposition

39:52

and nip potential threat activity in

39:54

the bud before it, before it

39:56

becomes a real threat. Of

39:59

that requires. monitoring, either

40:02

human or technical. And

40:05

often it means that either

40:08

the FSB is listening to

40:10

communications or that someone in

40:12

the midst of that person

40:14

who is being spoke to

40:16

in a prophylactic conversation basically

40:19

denounced the individual. Say, hey, I heard

40:21

this guy say something suspicious

40:24

so you should go talk to him. The

40:27

idea of denunciations was, as you

40:29

mentioned earlier, during the Stalin era

40:31

purges, was a major source

40:37

of NKVD

40:39

investigations. It

40:41

has become a source

40:43

of FSB investigations today. So

40:46

it could be across that spectrum from

40:48

human to technical and

40:52

any of those might give a

40:54

lead toward a an

40:58

operation that leads to neutralization of a

41:00

threat. Now

41:04

another major responsibility of the

41:06

FSB is conducting counterterrorism

41:08

operations. How does it do

41:11

this? And this would especially would have

41:13

applied earlier in the

41:16

21st century with the Chechen problem, would

41:18

it not? Absolutely,

41:20

yes. And counterterrorism

41:23

is a major function of

41:25

the FSB and

41:27

it has, again, similarly to

41:30

counterintelligence both an investigative

41:32

role and an operational

41:35

role. The investigative

41:37

role involves identifying

41:40

potential threats and

41:43

arresting people hopefully before

41:45

a terrorist act

41:48

is culminated. Just in the

41:50

past week there was an

41:52

announcement that the FSB

41:54

arrested a group who

41:57

were planning a terrorist attack

41:59

in in Russia on

42:02

behalf of ISIS. I

42:06

don't know. Not a lot of the details of

42:08

that particular arrest have been made public. And

42:11

what the lead

42:13

was that the FSB

42:16

operated on in order to make

42:18

that arrest has not been made public. But arrests

42:22

are a method

42:26

similar to any counter-terrorist organization

42:28

around the world. But

42:31

FSB also has special operations

42:33

forces that actively

42:37

penetrate or neutralize

42:41

terrorist organizations. That

42:43

was particularly true, as you mentioned, in the Chechnya.

42:46

Or FSB Spetna's special operations organizations,

42:50

such as ALFA and BIMBLE. But

42:53

then other organizations, such as later,

42:55

the caucus's team, or now the

42:57

Tawarida team, which is

43:05

on Crimea, all

43:07

have the responsibility of

43:10

monitoring and then neutralizing potential

43:13

terrorist activities. And that neutralization can

43:15

be targeted

43:18

assassinations of terrorist leaders. It

43:21

can be the physical

43:26

attacks on terrorist camps.

43:29

It can be pursuing terrorist

43:33

leaders around the world. Russia

43:36

has become quite

43:39

notorious for conducting assassinations outside

43:41

Russian territory. And

43:43

most of those assassinations, although

43:46

the media tend to focus on

43:48

political focus, most of them have

43:51

actually been directed against Chechens. And

43:55

those, as far as the Russian government views, are

43:57

not the only ones that are in the Russian

43:59

territory. not political,

44:01

but military, militarily

44:06

justifiable targets. And

44:09

a number of Chechens have been assassinated in

44:11

Turkey, in Austria, in

44:14

Germany, in Qatar. And

44:17

those aren't usually the targets

44:20

of FSB operations, often

44:23

with the support of the personnel

44:26

loyal to Ransan

44:30

Khadir, who is the president of Chechnya. So

44:36

that counterterrorism operational mission

44:40

can be both defensive and

44:42

offensive. And FSB has

44:45

an entire toolbox in order

44:47

to do the across the

44:49

spectrum. Russia

44:51

also often labels

44:55

oppositionist activity as extremist

44:58

or terrorist activities. It

45:02

can do that because the people

45:05

who conduct counterterrorism operations

45:09

in the second service of

45:11

the FSB are the

45:14

same people who conduct, and I think I

45:16

misspoke earlier, I think it's in the fifth service,

45:18

second service, are the same people

45:21

who conduct counteropposition operations

45:25

or the same service anyway. And

45:29

so they have a spectrum of laws

45:31

that they can use to

45:35

prosecute anyone who is deemed

45:37

an oppositionist. And

45:42

often the laws

45:44

that they use are terrorism laws.

45:47

If someone claims

45:50

that Putin should not be the

45:52

president any longer, that

45:54

person can be prosecuted

45:57

using a terrorism law. law

46:01

that threatens the president with

46:04

the terrorist attack. One

46:07

of the violations under which

46:11

Alexei Navalny was in prison

46:13

for was extremism. And

46:16

so that connection between

46:18

counterterrorism and

46:21

counteropposition is close

46:26

and there's a blurry line between them. So

46:29

someone who is

46:32

planning a physical attack on the regime

46:34

is often viewed

46:37

the same way as someone who is conducting a

46:39

political attack on the regime. Now,

46:45

how are FSB personnel recruited?

46:48

Who tends to join the

46:50

FSB? The

46:54

FSB has an open

46:59

and an advertised job

47:01

recruitment process. People

47:03

can apply to be FSB officers. There

47:08

are advertisements on the web that

47:10

explain what the characteristics are of

47:13

a person who wants to join the FSB. They

47:15

should be loyal to

47:17

the country. They should

47:19

be able to pass a security clearance. They

47:22

should be physically fit. They shouldn't

47:24

have any ties

47:28

to any foreign

47:30

organization or oppositionist organization that

47:32

will tarnish

47:35

their potential loyalty.

47:39

For full officers,

47:42

for those who are

47:44

operational officers, they should have a university degree.

47:48

Often it's in law, but it doesn't have to be

47:50

in law. It can be in a hard science. It

47:53

can be in a more

47:55

social science background. But

47:57

people apply to be FSB officers. The

48:00

how someone would apply to the F B

48:02

I. Have. They

48:04

go through eighth and academy

48:06

training process. That academy. Can

48:08

be a a four

48:10

year degree. And

48:13

before they leave the academy. They

48:15

they can receive a degree. And

48:18

or they can have a degree before they

48:20

enter the academy and it can be than

48:22

or a trade craft training facility. I'm.

48:27

This is the how people can

48:29

come in from both of those

48:32

different avenues already having a degree

48:34

that is that of necessary for

48:36

the Fsb or of getting as

48:38

a groupie via the the Fsb

48:40

academy. That

48:44

those the full operational

48:46

officers have a higher

48:49

standard. Of Education.

48:51

Those. Who are. Gonna. Be.

48:54

Of Support officers have only a

48:56

requirement haven't have an instant Him

48:58

institute diploma not a full degree.

49:02

And for the most part. Army.

49:06

And the efforts These quite divided by

49:08

gender. I'm a

49:10

full. Officers are. Predominantly.

49:14

Male. And

49:16

they obviously do require a higher

49:18

level of education. He.

49:21

Support officers which include people like.

49:24

A. Medical Officers. Administrator.

49:26

Personnel. I'm. I'm.

49:29

And. Linguists:

49:34

The also some and said the

49:37

of the border guards are border

49:39

guards who conducts the. Rather

49:42

than the specs in the people in things

49:44

come across the border. They.

49:47

Don't require the same level of education

49:49

they can dump, so it's more common

49:51

for them to be females. A.

49:54

Most females in the Fsb

49:56

are in those support missions.

49:58

Particularly. Medical.

50:01

I'm linguists or

50:04

administrative. There

50:06

are there have been some. Prominent.

50:10

Female. Operations Officers one

50:12

particular officer who retired a few years

50:14

ago. what as the leader of a.

50:17

Social. Alpha Team. A

50:19

character. A camera that Anna Terrorism team.

50:22

And I mean I discussed at the book is to

50:24

some extent. But. She

50:27

wasn't a cousin. Not many

50:29

women make it to the rank of

50:31

colonel. There has been one. Of.

50:34

Female. General Officer

50:36

the Fsb in. The post soviet era.

50:39

And. She was a medical officer.

50:43

So any of those avenues can lead

50:45

to an Fsb career. I'm.

50:49

But the up as be operational off

50:51

their. Does. Have a higher

50:53

standard. Know.

50:56

Are. Also in

50:58

or major role. Duty. Of

51:00

the of as be is the border

51:02

guards service and this is also a

51:04

legacy from the jokes Kgb because I

51:07

know the Kgb border guards they were

51:09

kind of concert like a week. Soul.

51:12

Our soldiers in a way, is

51:14

that stillbirth? The case with the

51:16

Fsb. Yeah. It is

51:18

to say that is the Fsb. And

51:21

border guards are a mix of a

51:23

military. Law. Enforcement

51:25

and Intelligence responsibility had all

51:27

of those mixed in together.

51:31

And. It it is the largest personal.

51:33

Element of the Fsb. his has about

51:35

forty percent of the Fsb personal total.

51:41

He. Had. It is. It has a

51:43

large. Essentially military force.

51:45

Which. Are. The. The

51:48

the soldiers who man. The.

51:51

The The Borders is a physical

51:53

borders of the of the, the

51:56

the Russian Federation physical meaning both

51:58

of land and sea borders. Russian.

52:01

Coast Guard is part of the border

52:03

service so it it it. It

52:06

some. That secures the

52:08

maritime and and riverine border

52:10

portions of the Russian border

52:12

as well as that they

52:15

have the other some allow

52:17

as well land borders. It's.

52:20

It has a a large

52:22

number of. Young.

52:28

Conscripts soldiers who.

52:30

Perform. Much of the day

52:33

to day. Just

52:35

border monitoring responsibilities. As

52:39

did those are. A

52:41

higher caliber. Typically than the the

52:43

see the private soldier who goes into

52:45

the army. But. They're

52:48

still private soldiers for the most

52:50

partner conscripts and they have the

52:52

same and he on conscript. Term

52:54

of service as other others

52:56

do in the Russian military.

52:59

So. They are still that. Come.

53:01

Through a junior level for the

53:04

most part. They

53:06

have the Beauregard sort of also has a large.

53:09

Lawn for submission, particularly.

53:12

Investigating smuggling operations.

53:16

Smuggling of anything a people. Of.

53:19

Of of them kinda that

53:21

commercial merchandise of narcotics. And.

53:24

So does the border guard. Services is

53:26

responsible for making to for protecting

53:28

the Russian government against those smuggling

53:31

operations. The Russian territory gets his

53:33

family operations but then the the

53:35

border and Service also had an

53:37

intelligence missed. Particular.

53:40

Looking. In the beer

53:42

a border area. Within.

53:45

On. And the fifteen

53:47

kilometers and what? Can

53:50

pretend potential threats exist directly

53:52

across the border? Not mission

53:54

has existed. For. Many

53:56

years since the Soviet era. running

53:59

human operations across the

54:01

border into neighboring countries for

54:05

the purpose of identifying potential

54:07

smugglers so that they can

54:09

be caught before they enter Russian territory,

54:12

but also to protect

54:15

against potential intelligence

54:17

infiltrations. So the

54:20

Border Guard Service also has somewhat of

54:22

a counterintelligence mission by looking

54:26

for anyone who is

54:28

trying to enter Russian

54:31

territory for an intelligence

54:33

purpose. And

54:35

so they're kind of the

54:39

first resort, first

54:41

screen of people

54:43

to prevent potential threats

54:46

from entering the country. They

54:49

also have some special intelligence

54:51

missions, so it says supporting

54:54

other agencies who also conduct

54:57

cross-border operations into

55:01

neighboring countries, such as

55:03

the GRU in places like Poland

55:06

or Ukraine or

55:09

into Europe. The

55:15

Border Guards help

55:18

to ensure that those other

55:21

agency operatives get across the

55:23

border safely and then can come

55:25

back across the border when needed. They

55:29

also have a special mission of

55:31

supporting the dispatch and the recovery

55:34

of intelligence illegals.

55:37

Illegals are a special kind of

55:40

intelligence operative. The

55:43

FSB doesn't run illegals itself,

55:47

but the FSB Border Guard does

55:49

support the movement

55:51

across the border of GRU

55:53

or SVR illegals to

55:56

make sure that they can cross the border

55:59

Safely. The air. Identity.

56:02

Is not compromise when they crossed the border.

56:05

says. Their. Documents. He

56:07

says is. Is a gift. Is

56:09

a secure. It is complete. So.

56:12

that when they go towards the they

56:14

leave the country go to another good

56:17

got go to the operational location they

56:19

don't. Get. Caught with. With.

56:22

Than bad documentation. So.

56:25

The border guards have that responsibility as

56:28

well. So. All.

56:31

Those fall within the border guards. Are

56:33

also liaison function. That

56:36

an overly isn't where it. It

56:38

interacts with the border services

56:41

of neighboring countries all

56:43

the Russian border. For.

56:46

Kind of smog enough. smuggling operations a

56:48

particular. Foot It's A

56:50

It's a larger organization with. A wide

56:52

range of functions. And.

56:57

You mention the bought. This is kind

56:59

of that large organization of the Epa

57:01

Speed Generals is why. Oftentimes.

57:04

Trying to compare it will save us

57:06

or even British. Agencies.

57:09

Like the Fo. Like the F

57:11

B. I was about five and

57:13

I sex doesn't really. Doesn't

57:15

really work because the up as be

57:18

is almost. It's all know. It's

57:20

own thing. There

57:23

is no direct equivalent of the

57:25

Fsb. In. About and it just

57:27

about any of the country. Potentially.

57:30

In some other authoritarian states, There's

57:32

something that looks lot like it's. But.

57:34

Deathly Not in a democratic state. Them.

57:38

Some people compare the Fsb to, for

57:40

example, the F B I or M

57:43

I Five. And.

57:45

It does have the functions of those agencies

57:47

in it. But. It

57:49

has much more than that. To

57:51

come to compare the Fsb to Us

57:54

organizations who would need to include portions

57:56

of the Office of the Director of

57:58

National Intelligence. The judge, the.

58:01

National. Come Told Incident and Security

58:03

Service and The National Counterterrorism Center.

58:06

Or. In there and as. They. Would have

58:08

to include portions of the Minister of

58:10

the Department of Defense. The

58:13

Military Counterintelligence elements of the department

58:15

and fests some special operations on

58:17

of. A. Would

58:19

have to include persons of the Cia. For.

58:22

The does have that or in

58:24

humans mission, particularly in the post

58:26

Soviet States. It would have

58:28

to include much of what is in Vienna, say

58:30

in the United States because it does have. A

58:33

H I S against and.

58:36

Information Security Mission. It

58:39

would have to include even to the point

58:41

of. The. Securities Exchange Commission.

58:44

And. The law enforcement elements

58:47

of the Environmental Protection Agency.

58:50

All. Of though in and also the

58:52

The of Customs and Border Protection and

58:55

other elements on the to the the

58:57

of the Ah of Homeland Security for

58:59

to the Coast guards all of those.

59:01

Fall. Within the Fs be. So.

59:04

There is nothing that compares

59:06

to the Fsb. In.

59:09

The United States for sure, and in

59:11

just about any other. Democratic.

59:13

State Because no democratic state

59:15

wants to put that much

59:18

power into the hands of

59:20

one organization. Particularly.

59:22

One. That. Has. Such.

59:24

A political. Focus.

59:27

Of protecting the political storm

59:29

Security of the ruling regime

59:31

has nothing quite like it

59:34

outside Russia. Now.

59:37

Spigot of It's political power. What type

59:39

of relationship does the Up as Be

59:41

have with. The. Russian president

59:43

and this particular case Vladimir

59:45

Reporters who himself was the

59:48

former. Director. And also

59:50

going back to being a Kgb agent

59:52

so. I know I am

59:54

blessed with taught them been betrayed. The

59:56

Fsb is almost as personal plaything. The

1:00:03

FSB has a close relationship to

1:00:05

the President, and that relationship

1:00:08

began, as I mentioned earlier, during

1:00:10

the Yeltsin administration, when Yeltsin

1:00:13

demanded complete loyalty

1:00:15

of the State Security

1:00:17

Organization to the President. That

1:00:20

is, to some extent, what replaced loyalty

1:00:22

to the party during the Soviet era.

1:00:26

The President demands that

1:00:28

loyalty and gets it. Partially

1:00:31

that loyalty comes because

1:00:34

Putin is the

1:00:37

greatest patron of

1:00:39

the FSB. Putin

1:00:42

speaks every year at the FSB

1:00:44

headquarters and praises the FSB for

1:00:46

the great work that it does.

1:00:50

Putin commemorates FSB

1:00:52

holidays publicly, FSB

1:00:55

anniversaries. Both

1:01:01

directors of the FSB, since Putin

1:01:03

became the President, were personal

1:01:06

close friends of Putin

1:01:09

from the St. Petersburg days. Both

1:01:16

of them have been in

1:01:18

Putin's inner circle. The

1:01:23

FSB has access directly to the

1:01:26

President through that personal relationship between

1:01:28

the FSB director and

1:01:30

Putin. It

1:01:33

has the personal patronage of Putin

1:01:36

because of its loyalty, and

1:01:40

it is a powerful organization

1:01:43

that Putin can use to support

1:01:46

his political security. That

1:01:49

is not to say that there is no rivalry

1:01:52

to the FSB. There

1:01:56

are other elements, particularly the Ministry

1:01:58

of Internal Security. which is

1:02:01

also a law enforcement, I'm sorry, Internal

1:02:03

Affairs, Ministry of Internal Affairs, MVD, which

1:02:06

is also a law enforcement organization, the

1:02:08

federal level law enforcement organization that

1:02:11

also protects the

1:02:13

regime from criminal threats. And

1:02:16

it and the FSB often clash. In

1:02:20

fact, that clash began during the

1:02:22

Soviet era. It

1:02:24

was exacerbated to some extent

1:02:27

in the Yeltsin era when Yeltsin placed

1:02:29

several former MVD officers over

1:02:32

the State Security Service in

1:02:34

the early post-Soviet era, which was in

1:02:37

an asymma to the State Security

1:02:39

Officer. And

1:02:41

in addition to the MVD, there's

1:02:46

also a relatively new organization

1:02:48

called the Roshkvarti

1:02:50

or the Russian National Guard. And

1:02:54

its responsibility is to

1:02:56

basically stamp out any

1:02:59

potential organized threats,

1:03:02

demonstrations, whether

1:03:08

they be physical or

1:03:10

electronic, any

1:03:12

organized effort

1:03:15

against the regime. So

1:03:18

it also has overlaps with the FSB. As

1:03:23

the Roshkvarti, the National Guard actually

1:03:25

was taken out

1:03:27

of the MVD, taken from the, what

1:03:30

used to be the MVD had basically an

1:03:32

army of its own, a group of internal

1:03:35

forces that were separated from the MVD and

1:03:39

made into a separate National Guard along

1:03:42

with several former

1:03:45

MVD special operations elements that were also

1:03:47

split off and put into the National

1:03:49

Guard. So all of

1:03:51

those elements have an internal security

1:03:53

mission within Russia. That

1:03:57

means that Putin has more than

1:03:59

one mission. multiple levers

1:04:01

that he can pull. The FSB obviously is

1:04:04

a very powerful one. In

1:04:06

addition to that, Putin also has the Federal Protective Service,

1:04:11

which has its own capabilities

1:04:15

to identify potential threats to

1:04:17

the president and to senior leaders. All

1:04:20

of them circle the president

1:04:24

with security while

1:04:27

the FSB is

1:04:30

high on that list. It

1:04:33

can be countered

1:04:37

if it gets too strong by

1:04:40

using one of those other organizations. There

1:04:43

have been minor

1:04:46

manifestations of opposition within the FSB.

1:04:50

There have been several FSB officers who have defected

1:04:53

since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in

1:04:55

2022. And

1:04:57

they have intimated or

1:05:00

have claimed abroad now that in

1:05:02

their defector locations

1:05:06

that there are people within the FSB who

1:05:08

disagree with the war in

1:05:11

Ukraine and who are

1:05:14

not supportive of Russia's

1:05:16

policies in Ukraine. That

1:05:19

is a potential threat to the

1:05:21

Putin regime. And

1:05:24

Putin would then use those

1:05:27

other levers of internal security

1:05:30

to ensure that those

1:05:33

expressions of opposition do not become

1:05:36

a major threat. So

1:05:39

all those organizations have to balance each other

1:05:42

in order to secure

1:05:45

the Putin regime. Now,

1:05:48

another major pillar of the Putin regime,

1:05:50

of course, is the Russian military,

1:05:52

which has a lot of

1:05:55

capability if it really wanted to get

1:05:57

involved. What is the- you mentioned- the

1:06:00

FSB does monitor the

1:06:02

Russian military, but what overall is kind of

1:06:04

the relationship between the FSB

1:06:07

and the military? To

1:06:10

a certain extent, they actually are cooperative with

1:06:12

each other. I mentioned the idea of,

1:06:17

the micro sense, the FSB

1:06:20

supporting the dispatch of illegals, that

1:06:22

includes your illegals, and the FSB

1:06:25

does support the identification

1:06:28

of potential recruits

1:06:31

for illegals, and

1:06:35

hands them over to other organizations,

1:06:37

such as the GRU, which runs

1:06:39

illegals abroad. The

1:06:43

FSB also has

1:06:45

a military intelligence collection mission,

1:06:49

particularly in the

1:06:52

post-Soviet states. Since

1:06:54

the war in Ukraine has

1:06:56

been occurring, at a municipal scale, Russian

1:07:03

espionage cases have been identified in

1:07:05

Ukraine. People who

1:07:07

are supplying information

1:07:10

to Russian forces for

1:07:13

use in missile

1:07:15

strikes, or in cross-border

1:07:20

operations. Those

1:07:22

espionage operations have, for the most part, been

1:07:24

run by the FSB. Even

1:07:28

though what they're collecting is primarily military

1:07:31

intelligence. The

1:07:34

GRU is also involved, obviously, in Ukraine, but

1:07:37

heavily involved in technical intelligence. The

1:07:42

GRU runs the surveillance aircraft,

1:07:45

runs the surveillance satellites that

1:07:48

collect intelligence for

1:07:50

military purposes. The

1:07:53

GRU also runs human sources, and

1:07:55

in a place like Ukraine, the predominance of

1:07:58

human sources is with. Yeah

1:08:00

to be. So. They

1:08:02

have to cooperate to some. Extent Because

1:08:05

much of that military intelligence

1:08:07

that the Fsb human sources

1:08:09

collects goes to. The

1:08:12

military for execution.

1:08:17

There's probably some classes.

1:08:20

I'm. As. You

1:08:22

are you. There there have

1:08:24

been some. A. Gruff

1:08:26

A media reports that. For.

1:08:29

Example in for and hacking operations

1:08:31

both. As You are you and

1:08:34

the Fsb are involved with porn.

1:08:36

Computer based collection operations. Or.

1:08:38

Covert Operations. Of

1:08:41

they sometimes. From. Compete

1:08:43

with each other and they even

1:08:45

sometimes collect on the same targets

1:08:48

without coordinating with each other. And

1:08:51

those often are are are.

1:08:53

Are kindness or covert operations and so

1:08:56

they don't. Want. A tip, their

1:08:58

hand even. To their own

1:09:00

core on internal not

1:09:03

alibi internal agencies. So.

1:09:08

It's It's a mix of cook cooperation

1:09:10

and. And. The competition

1:09:13

and with both trying

1:09:15

to. Vie

1:09:17

for the President's i as much

1:09:20

as possible. Ancestors

1:09:22

Be has the advantage in that

1:09:24

gives the Fsb does have that.

1:09:26

First. Hand access to the president through

1:09:29

the film but because the the a

1:09:31

friend of puts his. The

1:09:34

Gr you has only

1:09:36

secondhand acts as because.

1:09:38

Of. The It reports to the President via the

1:09:41

Minister of Defense. So.

1:09:44

Fun that Fsb has the advantage in

1:09:47

their competition, but. When a

1:09:49

war is happening now this is a jury. You

1:09:51

and the have. Of influence there

1:09:53

as well. Now.

1:09:56

who's alexander of the sale of

1:09:58

ich bortnikov and what is his

1:10:01

significance to the FSB? Bartnikov

1:10:07

is a friend of

1:10:09

Vladimir Putin's from both of their early days

1:10:11

as recruits in the

1:10:14

KGB in the mid-1970s.

1:10:16

Bartnikov is actually one year

1:10:18

older than Putin and they

1:10:21

work together in

1:10:23

St. Petersburg in

1:10:25

clientele operations, second chief

1:10:27

director of operations through the 70s

1:10:29

and into part of the 1980s. Bartnikov

1:10:32

stayed in St. Petersburg for

1:10:35

several decades after that while

1:10:38

Putin then moved

1:10:40

to this first chief directorate and got it now

1:10:42

it's his famous job in Dresden, Germany where he

1:10:45

operated in four-minute houses. But

1:10:49

when Putin left the

1:10:52

KGB in 1991 or 1990 correction and went

1:10:54

to be the deputy mayor

1:10:59

of St. Petersburg with his old

1:11:01

mentor who became the mayor

1:11:04

of St. Petersburg. He

1:11:09

stayed in contact with those St.

1:11:12

Petersburg KGB and then post KGB

1:11:14

FSB friends of

1:11:16

his and those St. Petersburg

1:11:20

day friends are

1:11:22

now some of the most powerful

1:11:25

people within Putin's

1:11:28

inner circle. Bartnikov

1:11:30

is one of those.

1:11:32

Bartnikov remained in St. Petersburg for a number

1:11:34

of years. He rose in

1:11:36

the ranks, became an FSB

1:11:39

senior officer. He

1:11:43

was directly involved in when Putin

1:11:47

was the director of the FSB

1:11:49

in the late 1990s. He continued to be a senior

1:11:55

official. He moved to FSB

1:11:57

headquarters to the Nazi festival.

1:12:00

economic counterintelligence service, which

1:12:03

is one of the more powerful services

1:12:06

within the organization. And

1:12:09

he then, in 2008, became

1:12:11

the director of the FSB. He

1:12:15

has been a close

1:12:17

confidant of Putin for

1:12:19

decades. And because

1:12:21

of that closeness, he is

1:12:25

a force in maintaining the

1:12:29

Putin patronage toward

1:12:32

the FSB. He

1:12:34

is a very conservative-minded person.

1:12:37

He is very much of the Czech East

1:12:39

mindset. He

1:12:43

has spoken very strongly

1:12:46

about the threat from

1:12:49

the West, from NATO, from the United

1:12:51

States particularly. He

1:12:54

views the West as a serious

1:13:00

threat to Russia that's trying to destroy Russia. And

1:13:04

in that view, he directs

1:13:06

the FSB to

1:13:08

pursue any manifestation of

1:13:11

Western interference within Russia, which

1:13:14

then is directly

1:13:16

supported by Putin. So

1:13:20

he's a major force for

1:13:23

the FSB and for the security of

1:13:25

the country. He, however, is

1:13:27

over 70 years old. And

1:13:31

he's beyond retirement age. And

1:13:35

he will be there for

1:13:37

who knows how long. Because

1:13:40

he is such a close friend of Putin, he

1:13:43

will be there until Putin decides he needs

1:13:45

to leave. But

1:13:49

who replaces him is still a big

1:13:52

question. And that

1:13:54

will depend upon a number of forces

1:13:58

Upon who still is a leader. He.

1:14:00

is around and the F as bt. When.

1:14:03

Botany cause is removed. As.

1:14:06

Are there any all St Petersburg

1:14:08

day? Colleagues. Have put in

1:14:10

still there. Or.

1:14:13

Will it be a younger? New.

1:14:15

Generation of Fsb officers who

1:14:17

may not have as closer

1:14:19

connection to put in for

1:14:22

these the long term. The

1:14:24

French A collection. So.

1:14:27

That's. That's still a a

1:14:29

question. It's out. He. Is.

1:14:31

With but Nikos now getting

1:14:34

nearer the end of his

1:14:36

career, On what.

1:14:38

Will happen. To. That net the world

1:14:40

of who will be his successor. And how will that

1:14:42

affect the Fsb? Now

1:14:46

we have talked about how the up as

1:14:48

be. Cooperates: With other

1:14:50

Russian intelligence agencies including the

1:14:52

Russian Military, how does a

1:14:55

cooperate with partners abroad And

1:14:57

you do mention especially about

1:14:59

how Chinese Intelligence is a

1:15:01

major partner at the Fsb?

1:15:04

How does that relationship for.

1:15:07

It has. A foreign liaison.

1:15:09

I'm a mission. It's. Both

1:15:11

Ogres and then understand. It.

1:15:15

So the Fsb runners, what does the

1:15:17

equivalent of. Of at the

1:15:19

as if the latter says. So. There.

1:15:22

Is. A few Athens Be

1:15:24

officers posted two embassies abroad.

1:15:27

For. Basically. Law

1:15:29

Enforcement liaison purposes. And

1:15:33

they performed. On

1:15:36

the the a liaison mission with.

1:15:38

With. Foreign Services. In

1:15:40

a declared fashion. and were there are

1:15:42

in countries where they were Russias it

1:15:45

is. It's safe to operate in that

1:15:47

manner. and countries that are allied with

1:15:49

Russia. Evans.

1:15:52

The also has. A. Liaison

1:15:56

with. Has. Several of the

1:15:58

Internal Security sir. of the

1:16:01

post-Soviet states to the point of nearly

1:16:05

the driving

1:16:08

force behind them in

1:16:10

a way similar to the

1:16:12

KGB's operations

1:16:16

in Soviet block countries

1:16:18

during the Cold War. So

1:16:21

in countries like Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Belarus,

1:16:26

even Armenia, although to

1:16:29

less extent over time, the

1:16:33

FSB has a

1:16:35

strong force in

1:16:38

not directing but steering

1:16:40

the operations of

1:16:43

those internal security services in those

1:16:45

post-Soviet states. The

1:16:48

FSB also conducts liaison

1:16:50

with other allied services,

1:16:54

such as with China, with

1:16:56

India, with Pakistan,

1:16:59

with Iran, for

1:17:01

the purposes of coordinating

1:17:06

efforts that those countries have in common

1:17:08

with each other. Often

1:17:12

those commonalities will be

1:17:14

countering Western influence, countering

1:17:17

Western intelligence activities. But

1:17:22

those foreign liaison missions

1:17:24

only go so far, and

1:17:27

they can only go as far as the states trust

1:17:29

each other. In

1:17:31

the former Soviet states, they trust each other

1:17:34

pretty much because they all grew

1:17:36

up in the KGB days together. But

1:17:39

in those states outside

1:17:42

the former Soviet

1:17:44

space, Russia

1:17:47

is as much careful in

1:17:50

its liaison as it is cooperative.

1:17:55

China is a good example of that. China

1:17:59

is... The FSB

1:18:01

views China at least as much as

1:18:03

a threat as it does as a

1:18:05

partner. In

1:18:08

the past 15 years

1:18:11

or so, China

1:18:13

has been the country

1:18:16

behind a large number

1:18:19

of espionage cases of

1:18:21

people arrested in Russia

1:18:24

for espionage. They were working on

1:18:26

behalf of China. The

1:18:32

Chinese intelligence services

1:18:34

have been

1:18:37

identified as hacking into or

1:18:40

using computer based operations to

1:18:43

penetrate Russian computer systems,

1:18:45

particularly computer systems that

1:18:48

are involved with military research and development

1:18:51

or military weapons systems. So

1:18:54

Chinese have been an

1:18:57

intelligence threat to Russia. The

1:19:01

Russian border guards also have

1:19:03

a major presence along

1:19:05

the Chinese border. That

1:19:09

is a remnant of the Soviet

1:19:11

era, but it hasn't been removed. There

1:19:15

are memories,

1:19:18

historical discussions within the

1:19:20

FSB about the glory

1:19:22

days of the Soviet Union that

1:19:24

sometimes discuss the KGB

1:19:27

efforts to prevent Chinese

1:19:30

threats. So

1:19:32

they look at China sometimes as a

1:19:34

threat, not as a partner. There

1:19:37

have also been some embarrassing

1:19:40

occasions when FSB

1:19:42

officers have actually been

1:19:44

caught and arrested,

1:19:46

prosecuted for smuggling

1:19:49

commercial goods coming from China.

1:19:53

So while China

1:19:55

is an

1:19:57

ally of Russia. in

1:20:00

a military sense and a diplomatic

1:20:02

sense, political sense, the

1:20:04

FSD probably views China at least as much

1:20:06

as a threat as it does a partner.

1:20:10

It probably partners with China on certain

1:20:13

narrow aspects of

1:20:16

particularly targeting common

1:20:18

threats that they see from the West

1:20:22

and from NATO, but

1:20:27

they probably operate against each other

1:20:29

as well. And they

1:20:31

somewhat operate with one hand

1:20:34

hidden behind their back

1:20:37

so that the other

1:20:39

side doesn't see what they're doing. So

1:20:41

China is a mixed bag as

1:20:43

far as Russian liaison. Now,

1:20:47

do the 1969 border

1:20:49

clashes figure into this

1:20:52

how the FSB views

1:20:54

China? Because the Soviet Union and

1:20:56

China actually had border clashes in 1969

1:21:00

that almost escalated. Absolutely,

1:21:03

it does. And that

1:21:05

remnant to the border guards that that's

1:21:07

still the kind of heavy force of

1:21:09

border guards that is on the Chinese

1:21:11

border is there from that era, that

1:21:14

60s, 70s, 80s era when the

1:21:17

KGB viewed China as almost

1:21:21

at the same level of threat as the

1:21:23

United States. The United States was the main

1:21:25

enemy. China was the

1:21:28

secondary enemy in the 1960s

1:21:30

through the 80s. That

1:21:32

hasn't gone away, that sense of threat. And there

1:21:35

are heroic monuments

1:21:40

to Russian border guards on

1:21:43

that eastern border with China that

1:21:45

are looking across the

1:21:47

river, the Amur River into China saying,

1:21:50

yeah, we're still here. We remember that

1:21:52

time when we shared

1:21:55

fire across the river from each

1:21:57

other. We haven't forgotten that. there

1:22:00

are large other

1:22:03

directorist or elements of the

1:22:06

Russian border guards that are

1:22:08

there to monitor that

1:22:10

potential return of that potential threat. Now

1:22:15

what is the common image of

1:22:18

the FSB within Russian society and

1:22:20

this even includes how are they

1:22:22

commonly portrayed in Russian

1:22:24

media pop culture? It's

1:22:27

a mix as well. The

1:22:29

FSB portrays itself not

1:22:31

surprisingly as heroic, as

1:22:34

patriotic. I mentioned

1:22:36

the book in some detail. They

1:22:38

even have an arts contest where

1:22:41

they every

1:22:43

year they award books

1:22:45

and films and music and

1:22:49

different artistic manifestations

1:22:56

of the FSB and those

1:22:58

monuments that I mentioned to the FSB border

1:23:01

guards have often won

1:23:03

those artistic awards. The

1:23:07

FSB portrays itself as

1:23:10

the protector of Russia and

1:23:13

it does that through historical

1:23:16

discussions. There are

1:23:19

organizations that publish

1:23:23

historical essays

1:23:25

and academic

1:23:27

discussions of the FSB

1:23:30

and its KGB predecessors and

1:23:32

to show how the FSB

1:23:34

is the

1:23:38

best of what used to be the

1:23:40

KGB. It

1:23:42

looks back on its own history

1:23:44

with great pride and

1:23:46

then portrays that pride out to the Russian

1:23:49

people. That's one

1:23:51

side. The other side is that

1:23:54

Russia, the FSB has suffered from

1:23:58

some significant corruption

1:24:00

problems. And that

1:24:03

tarnishes that heroic image

1:24:06

that the FSB tries to portray itself to

1:24:09

the point where just a few years ago there

1:24:12

were several FSB officers

1:24:15

who were arrested for a

1:24:17

burglary. Essentially

1:24:19

they learned of a

1:24:21

criminal activity, a

1:24:24

businessman who gained

1:24:27

a large amount of money through criminal

1:24:29

means. They learned

1:24:31

about it through their FSB investigative accesses.

1:24:35

They learned that this person was going to be depositing

1:24:38

money into a bank, a

1:24:40

large amount of cash into a bank that he had

1:24:42

earned or received through

1:24:45

criminal means. And

1:24:47

they basically robbed the guy

1:24:50

of his cash thinking,

1:24:52

well no one's gonna care. This guy's

1:24:55

a criminal. No one's

1:24:57

gonna cause any fuss

1:25:00

about this burglary because

1:25:03

this guy received

1:25:05

the money through criminal means anyway. So

1:25:07

we're just going to take

1:25:10

it from him. Well

1:25:12

in just a couple weeks the

1:25:15

identities of those FSB officers

1:25:18

became public and they

1:25:20

included some of the

1:25:23

FSBs even, their,

1:25:25

the special operations forces, the

1:25:28

people, the people within the

1:25:30

FSB are supposed to be the elite, the

1:25:32

alpha and bimple units. They

1:25:34

were involved in this burglary and

1:25:38

that showed the FSB as simply

1:25:40

common criminals. So

1:25:44

when Alexei Navalny published

1:25:48

some pretty major

1:25:54

exposés of the Putin

1:25:57

corruption, it all

1:26:00

also discussed how

1:26:02

the FSB was trying

1:26:04

to prevent the Navalny team from

1:26:06

collecting that information. So the FSB

1:26:09

was protecting Putin not just in

1:26:12

his presidency role, but also

1:26:14

in his accumulation of

1:26:17

huge riches. So

1:26:19

the FSB has both of

1:26:22

those images of a heroic

1:26:27

organization and a corrupt

1:26:29

organization. And over time,

1:26:33

that perception of

1:26:35

corruption has grown in

1:26:37

that balance of those two to the

1:26:41

point now where there are some people who

1:26:43

just expect the FSB to shake

1:26:46

people down. That

1:26:49

the FSB economic counterintelligence,

1:26:52

which has access to

1:26:54

the banking industry, what's

1:26:56

called the Directorate K or Directorate PE,

1:27:01

which has access to large industries,

1:27:03

that they're just going to skim money off in

1:27:06

the process of that law enforcement function

1:27:08

that they perform. That's

1:27:11

just expected. And

1:27:14

that taints

1:27:16

the FSB's image in the Russian

1:27:18

population. Now

1:27:22

we did touch upon this a little bit, but

1:27:24

what has been the FSB's activity

1:27:26

in the ongoing war in Ukraine

1:27:28

thus far that we know? As

1:27:31

I mentioned,

1:27:33

FSB's been heavily involved with

1:27:36

collecting tactical military intelligence in

1:27:38

Ukraine to the point

1:27:40

where it will recruit sources who can

1:27:43

report on the landing

1:27:47

locations of missiles and

1:27:50

assist the Russian missile forces

1:27:53

with correcting their artillery fire.

1:27:57

That has been an accusation that The

1:28:01

Ukraine SBU has

1:28:03

leveled against the FSB in

1:28:06

a number of occasions. The

1:28:08

FSB also runs the

1:28:10

internal security mission within the

1:28:13

occupied territories of Ukraine.

1:28:16

So it does all the same things,

1:28:18

but even more intensely in

1:28:20

Ukraine in those occupied areas than it

1:28:22

does inside Russia itself. So

1:28:24

preventing any manifestation

1:28:29

of opposition to Russia's

1:28:31

occupation, to

1:28:33

listening to any

1:28:36

pro-Russian views,

1:28:42

and then exploiting

1:28:44

those views by offering

1:28:46

to recruit that person who has

1:28:49

expressed them for operational

1:28:51

purposes. It

1:28:56

is the primary law enforcement, the major

1:28:59

law enforcement organization within Crimea. So

1:29:03

it has that spectrum of

1:29:05

operations that FSB performs on

1:29:08

Russian Federation territories. It

1:29:11

has moved that same spectrum into

1:29:14

Ukraine with

1:29:16

even more intensity within

1:29:18

the added mission of

1:29:20

tactical military consultants collection. Now,

1:29:25

what is the future of the FSB

1:29:27

in your view, based on your research?

1:29:31

The FSB is

1:29:33

in a very strong position

1:29:36

today because of that

1:29:38

direct relationship with the FSB director

1:29:40

in Putin, Bartnikov in Putin.

1:29:44

I mentioned earlier, what happens

1:29:46

after Bartnikov leaves raises

1:29:49

a question mark. If

1:29:52

the successor to Bartnikov

1:29:54

is not as

1:29:58

close a friend of Putin, It's

1:30:01

hard to say what that

1:30:03

relationship might look like. It would become

1:30:06

much more a Putin almost

1:30:08

becoming the director himself and

1:30:10

directing those activities. Eventually,

1:30:14

Putin is going to leave too. Putin

1:30:16

won't live forever. I

1:30:19

mean, he obviously is going to be reelected in the

1:30:21

next few days to another six-year term

1:30:23

as president. But

1:30:26

he's over 70. His

1:30:28

health is good today, and there have been rumors

1:30:30

of bad health, but those are probably wishful thinking

1:30:32

on behalf of those people who have rumored that.

1:30:35

His health is good. He'll be around

1:30:37

for a while, but

1:30:40

he'll die eventually. He won't live

1:30:42

forever. And when Putin

1:30:44

does go, that

1:30:46

will put the future of the FSB

1:30:49

integrator question, because

1:30:51

there won't be someone like

1:30:53

Putin with the

1:30:55

personal power of Putin

1:30:58

to replace him. And

1:31:01

the person who replaces him could actually be

1:31:03

a rival to the FSB. If

1:31:06

the person comes from administrative defense

1:31:09

background, or if

1:31:11

the first person comes from a non-security

1:31:14

service background, there

1:31:17

actually could be some

1:31:19

opposition to the FSB's power.

1:31:23

So it

1:31:25

very much depends upon the persons

1:31:28

of Putin and Bartnikov and

1:31:31

who replaces them,

1:31:33

and that will determine where the

1:31:35

FSB goes in the future. Well,

1:31:39

this has been a very fascinating discussion. Do

1:31:41

you have any final thoughts, maybe

1:31:43

touch on anything in the book that we did get

1:31:46

to in the discussion thus far? Just

1:31:52

to reiterate, the FSB is one of the

1:31:54

most powerful organizations in R There

1:32:01

aren't a lot of English language

1:32:03

materials on the FSB. So

1:32:07

hopefully this book will be of value to

1:32:10

anyone who is interested in

1:32:13

learning more about the organization. Well,

1:32:17

we always like to end our interviews by

1:32:19

asking our guests, what are you working on

1:32:21

now? Well,

1:32:24

I just, just about the same time

1:32:26

as this FSB book was,

1:32:29

was released. I

1:32:33

signed a contract with Georgetown University

1:32:35

Press again for the GRU version of

1:32:39

the same series. That will be a couple

1:32:41

of years in the future yet. It'll take some

1:32:43

time to research and write that. But

1:32:46

that will be also another of the

1:32:50

volumes in that series of

1:32:53

concise histories of foreign intelligence services.

1:32:56

I'm also doing just some other

1:32:58

research on, on counterintelligence

1:33:01

and how counterintelligence operates, which

1:33:04

will hopefully also turn into a book in the

1:33:06

near future. So I have plenty

1:33:09

of things to keep me busy. Well,

1:33:12

maybe when you finish some of those projects like

1:33:14

the GRU book, maybe we can have you back

1:33:16

on the podcast. We'd be happy to do it.

1:33:20

Kevin, real. Well, thank you for joining

1:33:22

us on the new book stuff. Well,

1:33:25

thanks for the, for having me and look

1:33:27

forward to talking to you again sometime. Hello,

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