0:01

This. Episode is brought to you by

0:03

shopify. Whether you're selling a little are

0:05

a lot. Shopify.

0:08

Helps you do your thing however you

0:10

teaching from the launch your online shop

0:12

stage all the way to their we

0:14

just hit a million orders States no

0:16

matter what state you're in, Shopify is

0:19

there to help you grow. Sign up

0:21

for a one dollar per month trial

0:23

period at shopify.com/special offer all lower case.

0:26

That's. shopify.com/

0:28

Special offer. Your brain

0:30

needs support and new OLLI Brainy Chews

0:32

are a delightful way to take care

0:34

of your cognitive health. Made with scientifically

0:36

backed ingredients like Thai ginger, L-theanine, and

0:39

caffeine, Brainy Chews support healthy brain function

0:41

and help you find your focus, stay

0:43

chill, or get energized. Be kind to

0:45

your mind and get these new tropic

0:48

chews at olli.com. That's olly.com. These statements

0:50

have not been evaluated by the Food

0:52

and Drug Administration. This product is not

0:54

intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent

0:57

any disease. Hello

0:59

everybody, this is Marshall Poe. I'm the

1:01

founder and editor of the New Books

1:03

Network. I've published several academic books and

1:06

one of the things I found frustrating

1:08

is my inability to get them picked

1:10

up in the press. There really is

1:12

no PR service specifically oriented toward academic

1:14

books. Recently, however, I had the opportunity

1:16

to work with a PR firm in

1:18

New York, RLM, on a book that

1:20

I recently published. And I have to

1:22

say, they did a remarkable job at

1:25

a very low price. And this got

1:27

me thinking. I wonder if the New

1:29

Books Network and RLM could provide a

1:31

service that would promote academic books. So

1:33

the folks at RLM and I put

1:35

our heads together and we came up

1:38

with a package. It is specifically targeted

1:40

toward people like you, people who write

1:42

academic books. So if you're interested, you

1:44

should go to the NBN website and

1:46

click publicize your book. And there you'll

1:48

find some information about the services that

1:51

the NBN and RLM are offering. What

1:53

we really wanna do is provide you

1:55

with value for money. As far as

1:57

we know, no such service exists.

2:00

This is the first of its kind and

2:02

we really hope that it's successful and we

2:04

hope that it helps you get the word

2:06

out about your academic book. Welcome

2:09

to the New Books Network. Hello,

2:13

this is Lily Gorin with the New

2:15

Books Network, the New Books and Political

2:17

Science Podcast. Today, I'm joined

2:19

by Melvin Rogers, who is the author

2:21

of The Darkened Light of Faith, Race,

2:24

Democracy, and Freedom in African American

2:26

Political Thought. This was published by

2:28

Princeton University Press in 2023 and

2:31

it is quite a seminal book for

2:36

anybody who's interested in understanding

2:38

not only African American political

2:41

thought, but understanding the

2:43

United States. And

2:45

I think Melvin has led us through a

2:48

deep and rich consideration

2:51

of what it is the United

2:53

States is and what it

2:55

means to many people. But

2:57

I'm going to let Melvin talk all about that. I'd

3:00

like to welcome Melvin Rogers to the New

3:02

Books and Political Science Podcast and ask him

3:05

to tell us a little bit about himself

3:07

and how he came to this particular project. Hi,

3:09

Melvin. How you doing, Lily?

3:12

First, let me thank you for having me because I know

3:14

we've been playing a bit of

3:16

tag trying to make this happen. So I appreciate

3:19

you being patient and

3:21

being committed. So thank you. A

3:24

little bit about myself. So I'm a

3:26

professor of political science at

3:28

Brown University where I teach political theory.

3:33

And I am

3:35

mostly, I think I'm mostly interested

3:37

in American and African American political

3:40

thought. And I'm mostly

3:42

sort of focused on questions

3:44

that are related to, we

3:46

might call, the foundations of

3:48

democracy. But

3:51

the foundations of democracy not located

3:53

specifically in sort of institutional structures,

3:55

although those are very important, but

3:58

the foundations of democracy. has located

4:00

in us? Do

4:02

we have the requisite habits

4:04

and sensibilities necessary

4:07

to sustain, support,

4:13

and recreate democratic practices? And

4:17

what did critical

4:19

thinkers in the tradition of American

4:21

and African American political thought, what

4:24

did they think was

4:26

required of us in

4:29

order to sustain and

4:31

support and enrich

4:33

democratic life? And this

4:35

book really goes at that

4:38

sort of fundamental question from

4:41

so many different angles. But

4:43

it does it also through the

4:46

lens specifically, obviously, of African American

4:48

thinkers. But it's not just

4:52

siloing African American thinkers.

4:55

You are, for my reading of

4:57

it, sort

4:59

of putting in conversation American

5:02

citizens with

5:05

the idea of these habits and

5:07

sensibilities, with this idea of who

5:09

we are and the we the

5:11

people. Can

5:13

you explain a little bit about

5:16

the sort of how

5:18

you came into this project where

5:21

you have thinkers that array

5:23

across 200 years, more

5:26

or less, who

5:29

are not necessarily, as you

5:31

say, the founders? Right.

5:35

Well, I mean, the first thing is that I sort

5:38

of treat, and I

5:40

hope the readers sort of experienced this, but

5:42

I treat African American political thought as

5:45

our shared inheritance. Shared

5:48

inheritance in the first kind of local

5:50

sense, as part of America's

5:52

moral and political discourse and

5:55

language, and I think shared in a more

5:57

humanistic and expansive way in this sort of

5:59

second sense. But I

6:01

came to this project because after

6:03

I finished my

6:05

first book on the

6:07

American philosopher John Dewey, at

6:11

the heart of that book was Dewey's

6:13

preoccupation with contingency and uncertainty

6:15

and the importance of these

6:17

ideas to democratic life. I

6:21

was always thinking as I was working on that book,

6:23

well, what group of thinkers in the

6:26

United States has had to grapple with

6:28

contingency and uncertainty at the

6:31

very level of

6:34

their existence. And

6:36

there are a number of groups that present

6:38

themselves as candidates, but I had been thinking

6:40

about African American thinkers for a long, long

6:42

time, both as an undergraduate and as a

6:44

graduate student. And

6:46

so that was really sort of the beginnings of

6:49

my thinking alongside

6:51

my work on John Dewey. And

6:54

then I wanted to understand why

6:57

these African American thinkers

6:59

and artists remain so

7:01

committed to the United

7:03

States amid practices

7:05

of domination and exclusion.

7:09

Now, how must they

7:11

have understood democracy in order to

7:13

make sense of their own

7:15

appeals to the polity? And

7:17

that got me going on the project.

7:21

I took something of a break as

7:23

I worked with Jack Turner on the

7:25

big volume on African American political thought

7:27

of collective history. But there

7:30

again, I was still constantly thinking about

7:32

this project. So

7:36

that's how I came to it. And

7:39

framed that way, it was me trying

7:41

to understand this tradition that I've been

7:43

teaching. And that

7:45

as I said, I'm an heir to, as

7:48

are you and your listeners.

7:50

And to try to sort of figure out what

7:53

did they think, how did they

7:55

think we had to sort of move and

7:57

comport ourselves in order to realize the vision

7:59

of democracy? democracy that they had in mind. And

8:04

so in thinking

8:06

about this, and you have

8:09

this very substantial volume

8:14

on African-American political thought

8:16

with lots of entries about

8:18

lots of different people and their

8:20

thought and their treatises and

8:22

so forth, but

8:25

you have selected

8:28

to think about this

8:30

through a number of lenses that

8:32

is not necessarily a kind

8:35

of systematic or

8:38

all-encompassing grouping, that

8:44

you are very

8:46

clear in the introduction that

8:49

you've chosen particular works

8:51

by particular authors to

8:54

understand and interpret. How

8:57

did you sort of,

8:59

again, you are an expert in

9:01

African-American political thought. How

9:04

did you sort of come

9:06

to approach who

9:08

it was and what they wrote in the

9:10

way that you did? So

9:15

one of the things about the

9:17

project is that the tradition

9:20

of African-American political thought is both

9:23

wide and deep. And

9:26

so the book, in some ways,

9:28

is not

9:30

exhaustive. So

9:32

the aim was to pluck out

9:34

a set of sort of

9:40

representative figures that

9:42

were sort of significant in their own

9:45

time period with respect to the text

9:47

that they produced with respect

9:49

to the

9:51

sort of kinds of arguments that they

9:54

initiated and put into

9:56

the public conversation

10:00

use that as a basis for the

10:02

sort of selection of the thinkers, even

10:05

as I was simultaneously claiming that they

10:07

were representative of a whole set of

10:09

other figures that we

10:11

don't necessarily see. Some of these

10:14

figures make an appearance. They don't

10:16

get sustained attention. They make

10:18

an appearance. But

10:21

that was the approach I

10:23

took, even as I sort

10:25

of say, the book

10:28

is not exhaustive. There's still much more

10:30

one could tell. So

10:35

I'll just use one example of

10:38

a kind of significant figure, which is

10:40

the first figure, the abolitionist David

10:42

Walker. Now,

10:44

if you were to ask most students

10:46

of political theory, have they

10:48

heard of this figure David Walker, they'll

10:51

say no. And you might ask

10:53

some figures who do work in

10:56

African-American political thought. And they might,

10:58

yeah, but not fully

11:00

understanding the significance of David Walker.

11:03

And David Walker's 1829

11:05

pamphlet to the colored

11:07

citizens of the world,

11:10

but in particular and very expressly to those of

11:12

the United States, really inaugurated

11:15

a kind of contestatory, let's call it

11:17

that, a kind of contestatory genre that

11:21

looked very different than African-American

11:23

thinkers prior to him and

11:26

looked very different than their various appeals. And

11:30

the amount

11:33

of, or the kind of righteous

11:35

indignation that you see at work

11:37

in the appeal sets

11:42

off a subsequent

11:44

long line of

11:47

argumentation that

11:49

looks very different than what was coming before 1829. So

11:54

the way you suddenly can understand Douglass's famous

11:56

Fourth of July address, and the right of

11:59

Comanche in the morning, the crisis indignation of that

12:01

text and the way in which he has

12:05

no problem criticizing the nation,

12:07

even as he's calling the nation

12:09

to a higher purpose, there's no

12:12

way to sort of fully understand

12:14

that mode of engagement independent of

12:16

David Walker. So there

12:18

is a moment that is both,

12:21

and there is a figure who's

12:23

critical precisely because he puts in

12:26

circulation a new mode

12:28

or a new sort of method of

12:30

critique and a new way

12:32

of engaging in contestation that then

12:35

becomes subsequently something of the

12:37

hallmark of African American appeals

12:40

and engagements with the nation. And

12:43

this is, I learned so much about

12:45

David Walker because I didn't know.

12:49

I am embarrassed to admit, but

12:51

I will admit it. You

12:55

do such a sort of really

12:58

skilled job of

13:01

teasing out what

13:04

are these sort of constant

13:06

tensions that I

13:08

think are really the backbone of kind

13:10

of your thesis in terms

13:13

of who the United States is, what

13:15

the United States is as

13:17

a concept of a democracy

13:21

and a republic. We won't go into

13:23

that conversation because it's not relevant, but

13:27

also in terms

13:29

of how these various

13:32

thinkers are wrestling

13:34

with that

13:36

contested confusion

13:39

in a certain sense. And

13:43

so I really

13:45

found your conceptualization of

13:49

a national character warring

13:51

against itself to

13:54

be striking

13:57

in terms of leading me through

13:59

all of this. this, but

14:01

it's also the sort of being

14:04

and becoming-ness that

14:08

all the African American authors

14:11

and artists that you pay

14:14

attention to, that you write about, they're

14:16

all in that zone. Can

14:19

you explain a little bit about

14:22

this concept of national character

14:24

warring against itself? Sure.

14:28

So I think the first thing to say

14:30

is that there are sort

14:32

of two important components

14:37

of the thinking of these

14:39

figures that

14:41

work together. And

14:43

one component is just their

14:45

view of human nature

14:49

as a site of transformation, where the

14:51

kinds of creatures that are not settled

14:53

and done. The

14:56

second has to do

14:58

with the way in which this first interacts

15:00

with our political system. And

15:03

so the second is the

15:05

idea that the legitimacy of

15:07

democracy, what makes it worthy

15:10

of respect and obedience, is

15:13

never finally captured by

15:16

the institutions that speak in our

15:19

name. And

15:21

that's because there's always

15:23

excess problems that

15:25

sort of exceed what those

15:28

institutions are speaking to. And

15:30

that the legitimacy of democracy for these figures,

15:33

they weren't alone, a great many white figures

15:35

thought this as well, the legitimacy

15:38

of democracy hinges on

15:40

its ability at critical moments

15:42

to be responsive to the

15:44

sort of, let's call it

15:47

the excessive voices that are not

15:49

captured by their institutions. And

15:51

this gives you a notion

15:55

of both the people that

15:57

are being represented by their

15:59

institutions. right? That's

16:01

the, you know, a kind of descriptive account of

16:04

the people. And it also gives you

16:06

an aspirational view of the people, people not yet.

16:10

So now we have a view

16:12

of human nature that fits very

16:14

nicely with a kind

16:16

of normative story about what

16:18

makes democracy dynamic. And

16:22

in that context, we can

16:24

have both the

16:26

nation sort of acting or comporting itself

16:28

in light of a set of values

16:32

that are in tension with a

16:34

group of people demanding

16:37

that they be properly

16:40

recognized. The

16:42

values that are oriented in people, in

16:45

fact, on the ground, it's

16:48

exclusionary. And

16:50

thus we have the tension, or to

16:52

put it differently, now we have the

16:54

nation warring against itself. Eat

16:57

stress free this spring with Factor's delicious

16:59

Ready to Eat Meals. Every fresh, never

17:01

frozen meal is chef crafted, dietitian approved,

17:03

and ready to eat in just two

17:05

minutes. Choose from a weekly menu of 35 options,

17:08

including popular options like calorie smart, keto, protein

17:10

plus, or vegan and veggie. Get chef prepared

17:12

meals on the table in two minutes with

17:14

Factor's Ready to Eat Meals so you can

17:17

go back to doing what you love this

17:19

spring. Looking for gourmet meals?

17:21

Try meals that feature premium ingredients

17:23

like filet mignon, shrimp, truffle butter,

17:26

broccolini, and asparagus. And this is the

17:28

part I really like. No fuss, no

17:30

mess meals. Factor meals eliminate the hassle

17:32

of prepping, cooking, or cleaning. You simply

17:35

heat and savor the good stuff. Factor's

17:38

the solution for fast premium

17:40

meals without the need for

17:43

cooking. Head to factormeals.com/nbn50 and

17:45

use code nbn50 to get

17:48

50% off your first box

17:50

plus 20% off your

17:52

next box. That's code

17:54

nbn50 at factormeals.com

17:57

slash nbn50 to get 50% off your next box.

18:00

your first box plus 20% off

18:02

your next box while your subscription

18:04

is active. Reporting

18:30

and customer service on one easy

18:32

to use dashboard. You'll reduce

18:34

warehouse costs with reliable enterprise solutions

18:37

and save thousands on shipping costs

18:39

with discounts up to 89% off.

18:42

Plus you can effortlessly import

18:44

orders from everywhere you sell online.

18:47

So turn your shipping challenges into

18:49

opportunities for growth. Go to shipstation.com

18:52

and use code pod to sign

18:54

up for your free 60 day

18:56

trial. That's shipstation.com

18:58

code pod. And

19:01

you also talk about that in the first part of

19:03

the book, um, which is,

19:06

you know, chronologically a little bit

19:08

earlier in the history of the

19:10

United States, but you talk

19:12

about this as the sort of problem

19:16

with the Republic. So

19:19

you've just given us the

19:21

discussion of the issue around

19:24

the legitimate, legitimacy of democracy,

19:27

but you, you spend a

19:29

lot of time discussing the

19:31

idea of a Republic,

19:33

which is where one is not supposed

19:36

to be dominated with the unfortunate

19:41

and horror of

19:43

chattel slavery, which is a form of

19:45

domination. And that

19:47

these were again, also point

19:49

intention in the, in

19:52

the United States. Um,

19:54

can you talk about how Walker

19:56

And others are sort of dealing

19:58

with that? Concept.

20:01

That. So. If

20:03

we go bad a moment

20:06

to the claim I made

20:08

about what makes democracy legitimate

20:10

legitimate. The kind of vibrant

20:12

it's ability to be vibrant

20:14

and responsive to one skelos.

20:17

Well. The reason why you want

20:19

that to be the case.

20:21

The founder start that this

20:23

was quite important. The reason

20:25

why you want this to

20:27

be the case is because

20:30

you want to guard against

20:32

those moments in which citizens

20:34

are not participating do not

20:36

exercise control over I'm are

20:38

good the sort of practice

20:40

is and the institutions of

20:43

governance that will directing control

20:45

their lots of citizens find.

20:47

Themselves in that kind of position,

20:49

they lox citizens at all this

20:52

subjects because they really are subjected

20:54

to the arbitrary mercy of those

20:56

institutions and the individuals that are

20:58

in control of those institutions. Is

21:02

the so proud of what

21:04

democracy was about? And I

21:06

make no distinction between democracy

21:08

and what we might call

21:10

republicanism, the philosophical tradition of

21:12

republicanism. I make no distinction here

21:14

and I don't think is

21:16

useful to make one book. Part

21:19

of what democracy was about was

21:21

trying to ensure that ordinary everyday

21:24

citizens can participate and the

21:26

practice of self governance. and it

21:28

was premised on the idea that

21:30

they could. Do that without having

21:33

to bow to bosses kings of

21:35

Pope's But as if they did

21:37

have to bow, they would find

21:39

themselves in a bit in a

21:41

position in which they were subject

21:43

to another. Effectively they would be

21:45

in a position of slavery. Yeah

21:48

and and I found I found that.

21:51

Thinking about. The. Role

21:53

of being in a democracy.

21:56

Although. You did talk about it. As a republican,

21:58

I'm not gonna get it. That silly debate

22:01

with regard to the United States,

22:03

which is both a Republican a

22:05

democracy. That

22:07

it really helped me to think

22:10

about. This at the

22:12

concept of citizenship. In general. Because

22:15

this is also what is

22:17

a distinct since that you

22:20

tease out of the work

22:22

is that the problem between

22:24

political citizenship and of essentially

22:27

slavery. Where. You had no

22:29

standing as a citizen to begin with.

22:32

Me: Can you

22:34

explain how the thinkers that

22:36

you are encountering in this

22:38

book? Is thought

22:40

about this concept as

22:42

a tree. Sit in

22:44

each have their different

22:46

kinds of writing. How

22:49

citizenship is again I

22:51

kind of enveloping position.

22:53

Me: So I'm

22:55

you services of a bit of

22:57

the books that I think early

23:00

on of books that is a

23:02

bit terms are tricky as complicated

23:04

as to get complicated because when

23:06

we think the bowed on the

23:08

story of the American revolution we

23:10

think about or colonists by them

23:12

against the fighting against that it's

23:14

the sort of the the sort

23:16

of threat of domination. And

23:19

that they were fighting for their freedom

23:21

of Wizard of a visit. A drill

23:23

down on that a bit. Part

23:25

of what the colonists we're fighting

23:27

for. Where. The restoration of rights

23:29

that they have previously had that would

23:31

now denied. And

23:34

book cause those rights were not

23:36

be restored by King George and

23:39

Parliament. The The Colonists argued via

23:41

the declaration that that that a

23:43

thing that has the sort of

23:46

this of temperament and sensibilities of

23:48

a tyrant, snap fit to be

23:50

the ruler of a free people.

23:54

This problem. Is

23:56

very different. When. Compared

23:59

to the Thunder, Of African

24:01

Americans. But as when you

24:03

sort of the sort of. Pay close

24:05

attention to the institution of

24:07

slavery. The issue is not

24:10

that black people had standing

24:12

in that society that is

24:14

now denied. The. Argument is that

24:16

they were never thought to have stand

24:18

in the first place because they were

24:20

never thought to be fit for citizenship.

24:23

Very. Little than what the colonists

24:25

were experiencing. From

24:27

the case of the Pollen is what

24:29

you need is on the one hand,

24:32

break away from the British Crown and

24:34

create a set of institutions that sort

24:36

of acknowledge rights that you previously had.

24:39

And the case of African Americans are

24:41

in so far as you are sort

24:43

of arguing for transformation of the society

24:46

to which belongs you need something quite

24:48

more. Laws alone. Will. Not

24:50

by themselves. Are sort

24:52

of pre standing on that

24:54

you never had. You actually

24:57

now need to be viewed

24:59

by your counterparts as ah,

25:01

but kinds of creatures that

25:03

have that standing. right?

25:06

As you need to view them, I'm

25:08

as the times of creatures that a

25:10

worthy of be intimate, that the a

25:12

worthy of be in a relationship with

25:14

you seem to be the difference between

25:16

these two. the difference between political standing

25:19

and a kind of stand in a

25:21

while just simply about political institutions. but

25:23

as about culture itself. You

25:26

need to be regarded by the

25:28

culture as such as a member

25:30

of that society withstanding. And.

25:33

I I found that that. Deserve.

25:36

Move to x sit Think.

25:38

About culture in this way

25:40

is particularly important because we

25:42

are a jury to call

25:45

society We are a litigious

25:47

society. We always are harkening

25:49

back to the what the

25:51

Constitution says and interpretations of

25:54

and Federalist papers and so

25:56

forth By what you're treating

25:58

here per teacher. Early

26:00

in the chapter where

26:02

you're looking at different.

26:05

Components of Aesthetics where

26:08

you are exploring the

26:10

issues around lynching. Ah,

26:13

I'm from the perspective of

26:15

Billie Holiday's song from the

26:18

images used by the Naacp.

26:20

Ah, I'm from either Be

26:23

Wells's article that you're you're

26:25

sort of demonstrating. A.

26:28

Sort. Of broader conception of what

26:30

culture is and what he dies

26:32

in a democracy and I would

26:34

love for you to talk a

26:37

little bit about how you pulled

26:39

that chapter together because it's also

26:41

a kind of the pivot point

26:44

in the book to move from

26:46

sort of ah, the original sex

26:48

into that sort of second section.

26:52

So. So given

26:54

what I've already said about the

26:57

importance of culture, Was

27:00

saying that immediately emerges or or

27:02

what I hope the now of

27:04

quips to read a with his

27:07

own way of understanding the writings

27:09

of the figure is that populate

27:11

this tradition that I'm calling African

27:14

American political thought. So

27:16

why is it when you look at

27:18

day? But what does pamphlet he's on

27:20

the one the him talking about. I'm.

27:23

The sort of. Problems

27:26

All the. American institutions

27:28

and so far as they are bound

27:30

to slavery that in some way of

27:32

presuppose you'll also see this him another

27:34

figure in the eighteen thirties was a

27:36

East Them. But

27:38

all of these figures also seem

27:40

to constantly be put in the

27:43

question to Americans: do you like

27:45

the way you look. Given

27:48

this picture of you that I'm describing. Back

27:51

and It if you sort of

27:54

continue along this this line. I

27:56

think it is quite significant that when you

27:59

sort of. Read figures like Mariah

28:01

Steward I'm eighteen thirties and you read

28:03

in Frederick Douglas and eighteen Fifties.

28:05

This both are concerned about is the

28:08

two shows, but they also concerned

28:10

about. Societies.

28:12

And. The habits of sensibilities of

28:14

society. And by the

28:17

time you get that, the Boy

28:19

is the Boys is most explicit

28:21

wb the boys most explicit. And

28:23

that ain't Not Rework The souls

28:25

of black folks and would you

28:27

see very clearly this movement between

28:30

institutional analysis and this movement between

28:32

a sort of meditation or culture

28:34

that makes possible the disregard a

28:36

black likes. This

28:40

past of working on two

28:42

levels. Was at

28:44

the heart of are either

28:47

Be Wells's reflections and the

28:49

late nineteenth century early twentieth

28:51

century arm and Billie Holiday's

28:54

or a performance out that

28:56

that song Strange Fruit which

28:58

is about mention are be

29:01

Wells is very much concern

29:03

are about our the absence

29:05

of and t. Are

29:07

anti lynching laws she wants? She

29:09

wants anti lynching laws on the

29:12

books. But she's

29:14

also are very sensitive

29:17

to the invisible laws.

29:20

That. Make possible. The

29:23

lynching of black people without

29:25

penalty. That sort

29:27

of police the boundaries between black

29:30

and white life and that authorizes

29:32

is used as a one moment

29:34

anyway percent. Arm.

29:36

To sort of to sort of basically say

29:39

that a black person has violated them. And

29:42

one half the Aswell.

29:45

Either be was given way, you are in

29:47

time in late nineteenth century given that we

29:50

going to the Civil War. Given that we've

29:52

gone to reconstruction that has collapsed, it has

29:54

failed. What? Makes you

29:56

think that this could work and

29:58

I think. The to Hi

30:01

This is this idea of human

30:03

beings as a static projects. Were

30:07

not settled. And

30:09

so along the path that we've been

30:11

fallen from the eighteenth one he is

30:13

down to I to be wells we

30:15

see different attempts. To.

30:18

Stage and Dramatize.

30:21

Looks, problems that I'm black people

30:23

are confronting and the ways in

30:25

which the problem that your confront

30:27

him has everything to do with

30:30

the problem of white rice. Right

30:33

arm and. And

30:36

what I think a significant year

30:38

is that when you take either

30:40

Be Wells and Billie Holiday together,

30:42

one of the things that you

30:44

come to realize is that will

30:46

for them to democracy does not

30:49

merely live in our institutions. it

30:51

can also live in our bones

30:53

in the movement of our bodies.

30:55

So Billie Holiday's performance of Strange

30:57

Fruit ah and the ways in

31:00

which she would have often sort

31:02

of dramatize on her face Bahar

31:04

that one should feel. A

31:06

bear witness to lynching was

31:09

an attempt to sort of

31:11

ah to sort of dramatize

31:13

what it, what it means

31:15

to be horrified by the

31:17

violation of democratic values. As

31:21

embodied in the violation of

31:23

black clients. And.

31:27

This. Is. Something

31:29

that we are still wrestling

31:31

with obviously. Ah, I'm unfortunately

31:34

to regularly. Ah, and

31:36

you know it's clear.

31:39

That deep Black Lives

31:42

Matter movement has direct

31:44

the is a direct

31:47

descendant as this kind

31:49

and I'm spotlight. On

31:52

that. The violation

31:54

of of black bodies,

31:57

Ah, I'm and and so.

32:00

As we're talking about. An.

32:02

Aesthetic Component: A

32:04

songs on that.

32:07

It. Highlights for.

32:10

Us and understanding of.

32:13

The. Problem that's at the heart

32:15

of the American experiment. As

32:18

you are discussing it, I'm

32:20

but I I wanted to

32:22

bring you to this question

32:25

of the the sort of

32:27

shape of the book itself.

32:30

Him on you. You talk

32:32

about user the earlier works

32:34

that that were before the

32:36

Civil War. ah, I'm David

32:38

Walker and some of the

32:40

others that you highlight. Ah,

32:42

But then you reach a

32:45

sort of points where you

32:47

use the phrase that you

32:49

eve sort of. I

32:52

forgot where came from but Newell I'm. Sure

32:54

to tell me Ah, this

32:56

a society that never was

32:58

that may yet be Ah,

33:00

I'm an that. He's

33:03

sort of moves. From.

33:06

Sort. Of this I guess on the

33:09

certain sense setting up the foundation

33:11

of. thinking. About

33:13

African American thought

33:15

to. What you

33:17

say are essentially for

33:19

questions. Ah, I'm about

33:21

domination or republicanism which

33:24

we've already talked about.

33:26

Ah, I'm. But. The

33:28

capacity for transformation that the

33:30

writers in the second half

33:32

of the book are. Wrestling.

33:35

With in a somewhat different way.

33:39

And so you have. You have what?

33:41

We were just talking. About with regard

33:43

to chapter. Five. But

33:46

you go through in terms

33:49

of. Two boys and

33:51

baldwin. Ah, I'm

33:53

as third sort of

33:55

trajectory. Out. He

33:58

can you talk about. That

34:00

capacity for transformation.

34:06

So. Full.

34:08

Of first part all.

34:11

The. World. Is.

34:14

Helping to bring

34:16

into focus. Or.

34:19

Is why. Culture

34:21

becomes the ground on

34:24

which the. The. Appeals

34:26

the battle takes place. And

34:29

the first part. I'm

34:32

some sort of thing gets

34:34

us. Are

34:36

to a more in which on

34:38

the one hand you have a

34:40

set of think of that sitting

34:42

on where as susceptible to transformation

34:45

that they want to sort of

34:47

deploy that as a waitress or

34:49

resists practices of domination and that

34:51

they do this partly because they

34:53

sort of see in democracy or

34:56

kind of openness as we moved

34:58

applied to i am boy impart

35:00

to i try to make bomb.

35:03

Are on too good to. On.

35:06

This argument about the sort of

35:08

democracy as a side of openness.

35:12

Do we have historical figures

35:14

that essential to America's moral

35:16

and political left? A thought

35:18

in this way Jefferson of

35:20

Cause Whitman of course becomes

35:22

quite important in this regard.

35:24

I'm and do we have

35:26

figures that also thought arm

35:28

as part of the dynamic

35:30

of democracy that we were

35:32

on us that it projects

35:34

and development. And

35:38

so this ends of the second

35:40

part is about trying to sort

35:43

of flesh that out in our

35:45

flesh that are various ways. I

35:47

so we have either Be Wells

35:49

and Billie Holiday arm deploying the

35:51

horror. The. Right? The

35:54

motion of horror as

35:56

a way to generate

35:58

affirmative agency. I

36:00

thought sometimes when I think Ahora as

36:02

generated the as a kind of paralysis

36:05

and they say no because we are

36:07

the horrors of we are the horrors

36:09

that we can also be the site

36:11

for work or potentially transform in ourselves.

36:14

By the time you get to some

36:16

alleged you know the boys two boys

36:18

is interested in both the sort of

36:20

a static dimension of who we are,

36:22

but the emotional. Also, the emotional damage

36:24

of who we are into. the boys

36:26

is also playing with these concepts and

36:28

an interesting time the fact. I'm

36:31

by the time we get to some of

36:33

my baldwin, all of these things at work.

36:36

Baldwin. Both seasons of Open the He

36:38

things that democracy turns on the description

36:40

of the people that is both the

36:42

people in fact and the people Not

36:45

yet. But Baldwin also knows that we've

36:47

been scarred by our history. And

36:50

so what does it mean to

36:53

both appealed to once fellows to

36:55

appeal to the emotions to see

36:57

them as open to be in

36:59

transformed while simultaneously taken seriously that

37:02

the ground from which you begin.

37:05

Will. Be a ground that is.

37:08

Stained. And

37:10

that what comes out on the other

37:12

side both were black and white people

37:14

are like will also be staying I

37:16

am and so that sort of the

37:19

trajectory of of sort of or of

37:21

part one to to depart to and

37:23

and ultimately sort of so we're we

37:25

were we land ah at the end

37:27

and by the time we get to

37:29

the and I think might the defense

37:31

of asked racial politics that we'd been

37:34

laying out across the whole book is

37:36

by the time we get to the

37:38

and I think appropriately to. Chase

37:40

served. As it

37:42

should be given how racial history. And

37:46

and that's one of the of

37:48

course. Places. Where you

37:50

read the reader which is

37:52

I'm. We are in

37:55

this. Country that

37:57

Reed has long been

37:59

quite optimistic about my

38:01

it's ah. About

38:04

new near sit in progress and

38:06

so forth. but side we can't.

38:09

We. Can't really. Legitimately.

38:13

Take that on without. understanding.

38:18

The the past that we would love

38:20

to erase. Ah,

38:22

I'm. An in Again

38:24

it's. The.

38:26

Historical This is this is

38:28

the reality of the United

38:31

States arm and the the

38:33

thinkers that you wrestle. Where

38:36

are all as you say.

38:39

Sort. Of. Trying. To. Put.

38:42

The two things together. Ah,

38:45

I'm. I'd. I'd love for

38:47

you to discuss a little bit

38:49

about any of the thinkers that

38:52

are sort of your threading through

38:54

this book. On. How

38:57

they. Were. Able to

38:59

essentially maintain those two

39:01

threads. So we've been

39:03

talking about. Like.

39:06

I will, I see. so he said. One

39:08

of the. Important

39:10

parts of the book is

39:12

the role that faith replace

39:14

him and the story so

39:16

we now know. That these

39:19

think those believe that what sort

39:21

of underwrites democracy the time the

39:23

dynamism. We now know that that

39:25

dynamism will include us armed who

39:27

accounts of the people for descriptive

39:30

A currently aspiration or can't We

39:32

now know that they see us

39:34

as as human beings as dynamics

39:36

and that part of what they

39:39

think can move as as both

39:41

armed or a is sort of

39:43

appealing to us as creatures not

39:45

done this arm and who can

39:48

be emotionally sensitive. I'm at a

39:50

mostly some that as the basis

39:52

for political transformation. But

39:55

they also know him a

39:57

final analysis. That. What

39:59

the market see? Ah,

40:01

turns on in the very

40:03

first them sense is that

40:05

ordinary everyday individuals. Can.

40:08

Render judgments, About.

40:11

The forces that will govern their lives. You.

40:14

Can persuade them in one

40:16

direction or they may say

40:18

no. And so

40:20

as your appealing to them, you never

40:22

exercise sovereign authority over the. And

40:26

it the fact that they can potentially

40:28

say know that white Americans can potentially

40:30

say no to their black counterparts. Raises.

40:34

The question will, what will keep you commit

40:36

it? What will keep you find them against

40:39

these forces And the argument by make is

40:41

that all of these figures are bound together

40:43

by a commitment to faith. And

40:45

that saved for them. Is

40:47

as I say, I'm a book or

40:49

kind of running ahead of the evidence

40:52

you need to finally justify the position

40:54

you tests. And

40:56

this is a very difficult, a

40:59

very challenging position to assume. And

41:01

it was and is one of

41:03

the threads of the book. That

41:07

made of. Completing. This

41:09

book quite difficult because one has to

41:11

say of has a a Bm. The

41:14

drama, the book, the subject matter

41:16

still going on, and one has

41:18

to wonder what is this the

41:20

right historical moment to advance this

41:23

kind of argument given what we're

41:25

seeing the the United States now.

41:27

Ah, and yet it seemed to

41:29

me that this is what these

41:31

thinkers were committed to. I'm this

41:34

idea of faith and end. The.

41:36

Other thing that it reveals

41:39

his there for them. Faith

41:41

is part and parcel of

41:44

political lighting, especially. In

41:46

cases where what's at stake is

41:48

the very foundation of your beer.

41:52

I. What's. At stake is

41:54

a matter of ultimate things. I.

41:57

Those whether the United States or.

42:00

Were those who engaged

42:02

in our intense are

42:04

sort of conflicts here

42:06

and elsewhere. To have

42:08

your society recognize you

42:10

as an equal. Typically

42:12

the evidence is not point in

42:14

the your directs. this is precisely

42:16

why it's a battle and sold

42:19

them. What would make you believe

42:21

that you could that you could

42:23

actually realize this thing I'll with

42:25

the evidence is often pointman the

42:27

opposite direction or minimally of mixed

42:29

And it seems to me that

42:31

there has to be or for

42:33

think of there has to be

42:35

some vision of what it means

42:37

to be a human being that

42:39

can become the basis for for

42:41

one's one's. One's faith and that seems

42:43

to be what is what sort of drive

42:45

in these was driving these figures. And

42:48

I I appreciated that essentially

42:50

it not necessarily a reconfiguration.

42:53

have an understanding of faith

42:55

because it's not necessarily a

42:57

religious safe, but it is.

43:00

Are. Kind of religiosity about

43:02

white. one has to

43:04

sort of think about

43:07

or believe an about

43:09

when fellow citizens. Or

43:12

the potential for when fellow citizens.

43:15

And that I wanted to ask you

43:17

a follow on to that because you

43:19

you spend a lot of time in

43:22

the discussion of democracy talking about the

43:24

fact that. Democracy. Make

43:26

all of us vulnerable. We

43:28

are all vulnerable within the

43:31

context of democracy. Ah, I'm.

43:33

And. In that capacity,

43:37

A black person? A white

43:39

person? An immigrant. We are

43:41

all. Dependent.

43:43

On. Others. In

43:46

a very real way for

43:48

what's that? The. Country

43:51

will be ah. Can

43:54

you explain a little bit about

43:56

how this. Vulnerability.

43:58

Is sewn into. Who Democracy

44:00

particularly in the United States.

44:05

Yeah, I mean I think that the

44:07

I'm. I'm adding you've already have

44:09

laid out quite nicely, which isn't that. The.

44:14

Significance and the

44:16

inescapable. the inescapable

44:18

character of. Dependency.

44:22

Is what creates

44:24

the are on.

44:26

The for the conditions of our

44:28

vulnerability. M. And

44:31

that the thing I think is important in

44:33

the contents of the United States is the

44:35

way in which. I'm

44:38

race. Is

44:40

often deployed. To. Run

44:42

interference. Between.

44:45

Some Americans recognition of that

44:47

vulnerability so that even when

44:50

and this was something that

44:52

you know James Baldwin was

44:54

very much aware of. This

44:56

was something that that sort

44:58

of define the sort of

45:00

on the sort of migration

45:02

story as black people left

45:04

the south to go nor

45:06

arm and a big businesses

45:08

were managing the influx of

45:10

them. One thing that that

45:12

could be said to one's.

45:14

White counterparts is that look? You're

45:16

not like them. But

45:19

in focus In or not be I'm like

45:21

down. You find yourself

45:24

unbeknownst yourself been exploited by

45:26

those very forceps, but at

45:28

least somewhat like them. As

45:31

a little what I mean when

45:33

I say that race rhymes interference

45:36

and and sort of obscures both

45:38

are see a vulnerability and some

45:41

that are seated vulnerability that comes

45:43

about. I'm. Because.

45:45

Of the sort of expanse

45:47

of notion of freedom, but

45:49

democracy makes possible. Democracy.

45:53

You're not a democracy as as well as

45:55

a sort of social political ideal. Doesn't

45:59

necessarily have within itself

46:01

on it's it's own

46:03

safeguards. I'm the safeguards

46:05

are us. Democracy.

46:09

Or as have no problem with constructed

46:11

institutions that can function like a trojan

46:13

horse to itself. And unless we have

46:15

the requisite add the and since wanted

46:17

to say wait a second. I

46:20

see you came through that door

46:22

but your with the commitments. right?

46:25

So so this. so this idea?

46:27

Obama ability. Of course, you know.

46:29

For me, I derived this idea

46:32

both from the tradition I'm but

46:34

of course, in the current and

46:36

contemporaneous In a contemporaneous way. I

46:39

derive it from Denny Hamlin. right?

46:41

Are talking to strangers And this

46:44

emphasis on democracy as make the

46:46

most vulnerable rather than secure in

46:48

a master amulets is extraordinarily important

46:51

ideas. But of course it was

46:53

an idea. The black been on

46:55

long. Island.

46:58

And and that and that some of

47:00

my James Baldwin wants to say i'm.

47:02

Is the whole stack of democratic

47:05

freedom. That. Creates

47:08

possibilities and to the extent that one

47:10

must insist on a favorite team. You

47:13

are failing to grapple with what?

47:16

democracy? Arm or at

47:18

demands. On. That your

47:20

freedom. Is. Intimately bound up

47:22

with vulnerability and and the

47:24

opportunity for development for groups

47:26

were expensive of society is

47:28

connected to that to to

47:30

the extent that you insist

47:32

on on your sovereignty. And.

47:35

The absence of vulnerability. That.

47:37

Means you know what the possibility to expand

47:39

yourself, right? And.

47:42

And. In this regard can this

47:44

is some of what you you

47:46

talk about later in the bike?

47:49

That. Is this sort of. The

47:52

way that disarm rebel and he makes you

47:55

feel. Right arm so it

47:57

it becomes an hour fact as as

47:59

at all. Known our unrecognized

48:01

component, particularly for White

48:04

America, Ah is also

48:06

where we. At I

48:08

would think and I think you sort of. Tag.

48:11

This in a bit were white

48:13

supremacy comes from. Goes.

48:16

And so that that that

48:18

vulnerability tied to the freedom

48:21

is wine Dad has to

48:23

inevitably you have to come

48:26

to terms with. Feeling.

48:28

Vulnerable. You

48:31

don't do the argument you

48:33

know white supremacy is really

48:35

sort of value and wife

48:37

was over nonwhite box and

48:39

event but have it's but

48:41

blood. At the heart of

48:43

this is that it. Response.

48:46

To a set of existential questions that

48:48

we all can front. Who.

48:51

Am I what is my purpose? What

48:53

is my place in this society? White

48:56

Supremacy response to all of

48:58

those questions. And this

49:00

is why the boys thought are in.water

49:03

that white supremacy you was a kind

49:05

of you know he's of whiteness as

49:07

a kind of religion. Because

49:10

religions. The The

49:12

Great Religions speak to those existential

49:15

questions. right? End

49:17

Of the part of what

49:19

these figures wanted to sort

49:21

of the let laid bare

49:23

is that. What

49:26

you what is missed is

49:28

that the ability to sort

49:31

of answer those questions or

49:33

can't be disentangled from. The.

49:36

Vulnerability. As part

49:38

and parcel of helping you figure out who

49:40

are you have, what would you describe what?

49:42

what you to do of what is your

49:45

place in this and this in this society.

49:48

And you know, Baldwin was

49:50

very clear that this a

49:53

very difficult difficult questions for

49:55

anyone to face and but

49:57

such, they're difficult questions. I'll

50:00

meet up in front of their

50:02

own is directly they have been

50:04

white Americans who know what they

50:07

are doing when they engage and

50:09

white supremacy. I'm when they dominate

50:11

others. And. Then they are great

50:13

many others that are not so clear

50:15

what they're doing when they can put

50:17

an act in the name of white

50:19

supremacy them when they don't call it

50:21

that I it's and boulders quite clear

50:23

that very difficult very difficult thing to

50:26

grapple with but he was also insists

50:28

of i think the tradition bear this

50:30

out as that one's white counterparts. Need

50:33

to sort of figure out their

50:35

relationship to those existential questions. I

50:38

failed strikes and added a figure that out in

50:40

relation to the history that they have given life

50:42

to. An African Americans

50:45

are part of helping to bring

50:47

it into view. But

50:49

ultimately ultimately. Ones.

50:51

White counterparts. Arm.

50:54

And the ways in which they sort

50:56

of dominated the trajectory of the nation

50:58

and thus we can save a nation

51:00

Army has to work out it's relationship

51:03

to that history. Yeah.

51:05

That that is the an inheritance.

51:08

That and in our we always talk about.

51:10

Slavery and stay inheritance of

51:12

the nation bed and terms

51:15

of understanding who I am

51:17

in a democracy and the

51:19

is also my inheritance. And.

51:22

On. This. Is a fantastic

51:25

but Melvin I can now now

51:27

that it's come out. what are

51:29

you working on? Oh,

51:31

I'm well, I'm still. You know I'd

51:33

send. you know, we write blogs, you

51:36

know this lube rebels who write articles

51:38

and then we move worth of next

51:40

thing and I spend so much time

51:42

As bad as bad as I felt

51:44

bad, you know I have to effectively

51:46

hit the intellectual red carpet to support

51:48

it and timid and to try to

51:51

generate allies with because it just seems

51:53

to me. I'm. But

51:55

you. Know we write his books and we write

51:58

his pulse with the hope. That

52:00

someone will take about will read

52:02

it and will join him a

52:04

conversation even at of them are

52:07

contested story way I'm and that

52:09

sometimes you generate allies for it

52:11

they will say yes and sometimes

52:13

you will create an audience on

52:16

the didn't know that they exist

52:18

it around and we're ready for

52:20

this or this block but I

52:22

am I have put to I

52:25

have put pen to paper I'm

52:27

on a on to new projects.

52:30

What is all origin stories which picks up

52:32

with his book? Ends.

52:34

Com And that book on origin

52:37

stories is basically about. How

52:40

preoccupation? Origin stories of the

52:42

genre of talking about our

52:44

history and the ways in

52:46

which that preoccupation with origin

52:49

stories. I'm also. Ah,

52:51

Ah ah ah turned out to

52:53

be our failure to grapple with

52:55

our freedom fighters origin stories settle

52:58

existential questions. I Origin

53:00

Stories About the origin stories are deterministic.

53:02

You try to violate your origin story

53:04

and seat see what happened to you.

53:06

To or just or is do a

53:08

lot of work and in doing that

53:10

work I'm gonna I'm gonna argue. I

53:12

I think from addicted the in actually

53:14

get from the way. with

53:17

at that the so danger possible

53:19

the that comes with democratic life

53:21

and i think the other book

53:23

project that sort of put some

53:25

thoughts down on on paper i'm

53:27

ah is about of figure. There's.

53:29

Been a great deal of time with in this book. The

53:31

boys. And as an attempt

53:34

to sort of, I'm. Now

53:36

go back to my roots. Are. As

53:39

a political theorists that picks on one think I'm

53:41

focused on one big ass but the try

53:43

to figure out on to tell a story about

53:45

how the boys holds together. From.

53:47

Souls and ninety know three. To

53:50

dark Water Or nineteen Twenty To dusk

53:52

and dawn Of Nineteen Forty. That

53:55

there is actually a very have a

53:57

physical here is to the boys are

53:59

it's. The Whole Foods

54:01

and that coherence. Are.

54:04

Also contains. Development.

54:06

And departures I'm as so and so.

54:08

That's a that's another project that that

54:10

put some thoughts down on on paper

54:12

for both of those prices will lose

54:15

it. Mouth whichever one gets Public snacks

54:17

I have, You'll come. Talk to me about

54:19

it on the news like that work. Well.

54:21

Thank you very much for having me. As it's

54:23

my pleasure and I assume one can

54:26

purchases but at Princeton University Press is

54:28

web sites Is there a brick and

54:30

mortar store to which you would like

54:32

to give a shout out. On.

54:36

Any brick and mortar store that people

54:38

care about. Great. Set some streets. Thank

54:41

you Melvin Rogers for joining me today

54:43

to talk about the dark and light

54:45

of faith, race, democracy and freedom and

54:47

African American thought. It has been a

54:50

true pleasure and an honor to chat

54:52

with the about it. Thank.

54:54

You.