0:01

Welcome to the New Books Network! Can

0:09

Now and Falcon Masks

0:11

mans the official podcast

0:13

of Fixing Universities Trains

0:15

Mass. In

0:17

American ideals and institutions, I'm

0:20

your host. Hanukkah your best.

0:22

We're about to have a

0:24

conversation about the talk, and

0:26

there's really no one better

0:29

to discuss. It in Today's

0:31

guest kept a few the

0:33

but whose professor of Political

0:35

Science at West So. He

0:37

also directs her graduate scholarship

0:39

program and cool directs their

0:41

American Foundations mine. He's also

0:43

current visiting fellow here as

0:45

the chains. Madison man whose.

0:48

Specialty is the history of political

0:50

thought. His most recent book is

0:52

on at were given that you

0:54

should absolutely check out but today

0:56

we're here to discuss his book.

0:58

Who Tarps Politics winner of the

1:00

Dell Both Winthrop Award for excellence

1:02

in Political Science. In this conversation

1:04

talks with these it would be

1:06

presenting. His own views and not

1:08

those of the United States Military

1:10

Academy and have no further ado.

1:12

I hope you enjoy. Hugh.

1:20

Welcome to the show! It's such a delight to have

1:22

you. Thank you. So.

1:24

I want to kick us are arm. I

1:26

mean, there's more of a lot of nitty

1:28

gritty things that one could ask about Plutarch

1:30

and how to treat him as a historian,

1:33

but just kind of it. a very broad

1:35

level about his project, you have a really

1:37

lovely quote in your book. That. Loot

1:39

Farc views the citizens saw as

1:41

a window into the city and

1:43

I think it's really beautiful occupation

1:45

and a really lovely way of

1:47

summarizing who Talks project but also

1:49

quite different from how we think

1:51

about political philosophy and the role

1:53

of politicians today. So can you

1:55

kind of unpacked that statement and

1:57

explain why we talk thinks that.

2:00

What we can learn about we talk for my

2:02

observation. Yeah, sure, thanks for the question.

2:04

I can thank you for having me

2:06

here. I'm really delighted that the opportunity

2:08

to talk about we talk is my

2:10

favorite authors negro beneath your books. So

2:12

yes, Oh, Plutarch says that he writes

2:14

about the am the souls of individuals

2:16

night, so he's interested. He says nonwriting,

2:18

his son, describing the great battles and

2:21

every little detail often. but I'm looking

2:23

at the soul. Which. Shows itself.

2:25

he says offers more and little things

2:27

and little anecdotes than a dozen great

2:29

battles. So he comes from abroad the

2:31

Platonic background we can say studied the

2:34

out the academy and as floss for

2:36

plan was for ammonia so I'm and

2:38

he seems to take seriously. I think

2:40

the parallel that Plato in Socrates establishes

2:43

between City in Salt. However, his

2:45

direction that he goes and analyzing it starts

2:47

more from the soul and use that as

2:49

a window to the city. And you

2:51

know from the city and working down to

2:53

it's institutions and understand the character at the

2:55

citizens. Looking a little bit. More

2:57

into delayed historians terribly you to

3:00

talk on you observe. A lot

3:02

of people have observed people don't

3:04

tend to take him seriously. The

3:07

transfer mean a little bit.

3:10

Cheap eaters Proceed City Details.

3:12

Of steel plate salacious. that one wouldn't

3:15

expect someone who is being super serious

3:17

and my new about the sources to

3:19

take seriously. And to with

3:21

somebody figures, We have plenty of

3:24

evidence that they existed Alexander the

3:26

Great correctly. And then you have

3:28

these people like Romulus who are

3:30

essentially mythological and they get equal

3:32

ranks if you. Well, they sort

3:34

of getting the corner space. On.

3:36

And so didn't that. As

3:39

historians how seriously silly take Plutarch

3:42

project isn't the case. that is

3:44

to sort of doesn't have anything

3:46

useful at all to say except.

3:49

About what Plutarch thinks about these suckers. or

3:51

is there something caught a broader that we

3:53

can say terms of what they're useful for

3:55

historically. As. Historians I think

3:57

we probably approached the tax differently than

3:59

just. Chinese people, they were trying to

4:01

understand political Larry or Fla suffer sir trying

4:03

to understand something new permanent about the world

4:05

and about the human soul. And I will

4:08

say that as a story and you know

4:10

I don't think to talk is worthless entirely

4:12

By say that We always have to keep

4:14

in mind that he tells us like if

4:16

you're looking for history that's not my main

4:18

entrance, know it's not. That isn't different. The

4:20

history of for instance in the are you

4:22

occasionally referred to as work as a kind

4:24

of history. He. Says in the introduction

4:27

to the Romulus enthusiasm is very well

4:29

aware yeah that we don't necessarily have

4:31

access to what actually happened since as

4:34

he's trying to make me look like

4:36

history. In. That case. So it's

4:38

not that he's unconcerned with history is

4:40

that his main focus is not history.

4:43

But the. Sole. Presents himself to

4:45

is much more as we might say psychologist

4:47

I think we could say no floss for

4:49

political philosopher, median ethicist in some sense, on

4:51

rather than historian and he wrote a lot

4:54

Though for a lot of these Niggers is

4:56

one of the main sources. We have a

4:58

lot of fragments we have made since and

5:00

stories is tax have been lost to us,

5:02

come from to talk slides and from the

5:05

other works he wrote back like didn't rally

5:07

up So you know there is worth something

5:09

we should approach or messy primarily as he

5:11

asked us to approach money in this work

5:13

the Parallel Lives. And which is in I

5:15

was more of a loss for less of a source. Yes,

5:18

And get a philosophy Interest affected

5:20

me just because I'm factory serious

5:22

about this and I can't resist.

5:25

I. Mean how exactly does

5:27

one go about doing. The

5:30

kind of research that the carpenters to produce.

5:32

This an ancient world because I think when we read

5:34

these things, we just sort of. Take

5:36

it for granted that. Either.

5:38

Sort of making outbursts to sort of

5:40

came out of nowhere in facts and

5:42

in what sort of the process to

5:44

figure out what goes into this Isis

5:46

taxed. As as your question

5:48

I wish I knew the answer is

5:50

a set as us and we know

5:52

a are we received. We're pretty certain

5:55

we scholars of which are yards that

5:57

he wrote the bulk of the parallel

5:59

lives hum. From this little town karen

6:01

there where he was born and died. A

6:03

very famous town though because a lot battles

6:05

were fought there for you know it in

6:07

their boots. In and not too far from

6:09

thieves, not far from Delphic Oracle. He comments

6:11

at one point in the beginning of the

6:13

mosque. Nice that he's writing from a little

6:16

town without a great library. The hinder me

6:18

a lot easier to write the kinds of

6:20

works he's writing. If you are in Rome

6:22

or alexander you some other place with more

6:24

the of luminous holdings right away because there's

6:26

so what is he has. He probably has

6:28

the tax that he owns and. Seems to

6:30

come from a fairly well off families and

6:32

so he wishes and that he has some

6:34

tax ready at hand on his desk I

6:36

think I'm but he seems also just to

6:38

have to pieces memory. Nice to have studied

6:40

you know many things at various points and

6:42

slice into as held on to them such

6:44

a way that he can draw on them

6:46

when he's writing his life and was probably

6:48

also assume and little bit of authorial licensees

6:50

or many of these hills. He gets us

6:52

to fill out a scene and make it

6:54

feel vivid and real which is extraordinarily gifted

6:56

it to you know stuff that he couldn't

6:58

possibly. Now he can tell it to us

7:00

as if he was there. Am I?

7:03

It doesn't defend my sensibilities. Sound

7:07

that he's inferring and kind of filling out

7:09

a scene in a beautiful way in order

7:11

to strike after this for a serious not

7:13

just new static, the serious purpose that he

7:15

has of investigating the someone teaches read or

7:17

something about. I will have

7:19

their authors write in a captivating

7:22

were sorcerer and in assets in

7:24

academic get remorse. And

7:27

you let's dig a little bit

7:30

more into Canada Biographical elements of

7:32

it and. It a previous

7:34

conversation on. This podcast with Chinese burqas

7:36

would recover that states and second one

7:38

of the distinctions that we talked about

7:41

less between. Of

7:43

work about statesmanship. Written by someone

7:45

who is actually in a political

7:47

role or someone says is in

7:49

more advisory role. On And

7:52

so weird as Plutarch fall within

7:54

that does he have any political

7:56

experience that he's using to write

7:58

these lies? An

8:00

interesting question of with dark I'm a

8:02

the the easy answer is no not

8:04

really I'm in the sense that he

8:07

doesn't have a role anything like that

8:09

of Alexander the great way to have

8:11

a younger crowd or dress up as

8:13

a side his his i'm more politically

8:15

experienced in I think we coming with

8:17

our assumptions about divide between philosophy and

8:20

and political life for left back with

8:22

us we're think we would tell when

8:24

we know from him out mostly comes

8:26

from his own you know accounts of

8:28

his life which is. An interesting fact

8:31

about as were to get sick health

8:33

of his life in a life must

8:35

assume that is born in Karen a

8:37

citizen Athens and heat We know he

8:39

goes to Rome. We know he has

8:41

friends among the ruling elites of the

8:43

day under the empire should say his

8:46

ears are about forty one twenty I'm

8:48

we know he was Roman citizen or

8:50

we know he served as an ambassador

8:52

from Greece to Rome. Oh we know

8:54

that Monday's frenzy as on the Roman

8:56

elite or senators who hold important military

8:59

command lexus his neck. This, the

9:01

static a T of the parallel lives

9:03

in several works at a collector's

9:05

in the rally as well. So we

9:07

should I think you know, assume that

9:10

to talk is writing not only for

9:12

philosopher and seven but for practical

9:14

men statesman of his day under the

9:16

empire am who might benefit from reflecting

9:19

on the kinds of souls that that

9:21

are presented to them. And it's

9:23

also worth keeping in mind though that

9:25

to talk even though he's not in

9:28

a holding these officers as console. Her

9:30

original unhappy. Is. About the politics

9:32

is on the local level. Now

9:35

yeah there's has are kind of carrying

9:37

a kind of like mayor I guess

9:39

it's arguments equivalent is were involved in

9:41

the administration of the Delphic Oracle have

9:43

any comments occasionally on what that kind

9:45

of life entails he says at point

9:47

in this work and it comes to

9:49

us and them rallying address with the

9:52

precepts of statecraft that some of his

9:54

friends will make fun of him when

9:56

he's accepting a delivery of like marble

9:58

or ago though it will ever. The

10:00

Building materials and he says the wrong to

10:02

make fun of me because even not a

10:04

little thing with i'm doing associate with this

10:06

little town the an attitude, building materials, the

10:08

source ethic and the potholes I am. It's

10:10

not a know. There's. Something noble

10:12

about public service no matter what level

10:14

you do it on. I'm. Such

10:16

that I think the Dark isn't being ironic

10:19

with us when he says that he actually

10:21

draws some inspiration for his own political life,

10:23

even on a very small scale, from the

10:25

sort of investigation that he does into the

10:27

lives of the great figures of the Greek

10:30

and Roman Catholic directly is now it's and

10:32

Earth Rifle. Man. Yeah.

10:34

I mean, even envisioning what it would mean to

10:36

be the manager at the Delphic Oracle? Funny

10:39

his truck like decision. I ever have a committee.

10:43

And in the idea of philosophy and

10:45

protect as a philosopher has. Come.

10:47

Up So like basically every single answer

10:49

is given so far so I think

10:52

it has come time to address it

10:54

defaults on. It. Does

10:56

not strike me as the typical thing

10:59

that would stand out to one when

11:01

one opens the parallel lives or some

11:03

work of Plutarch. to think oh, this

11:05

is really in some deep way about

11:07

philosophy as opposed to be about history.

11:09

So can you to send me a

11:12

little bit Why? That's. The case was

11:14

the tools are that pluto or if you

11:16

don't sit. Sit

11:19

and co that from. What? He

11:21

says. Yes yes or maybe

11:23

it's worth as the starting with the a

11:25

little bit of background he has the off

11:27

on disappear the works by Plutarch that come

11:29

down to us. So they're divided into two

11:31

big parts the Parallel Lives which is by

11:33

far his most famous work and that he

11:35

actually intended as a work he refers to

11:37

as at the Pearl Lot but then we

11:39

have this other collection called them Rally I

11:41

am does not written by to start as

11:43

work. he didn't title anything to Rally set

11:45

of had a catch all for everything we

11:47

have that isn't written as a price I'm

11:49

so that's helpful for thinking about what he's

11:51

doing as of. Last for though because

11:54

in them rally up or lot

11:56

of treatises dialogues that feel like

11:58

what we. I think

12:00

when we say philosophy. So for

12:02

instance he has a you a

12:05

piece on played us to Mass

12:07

where he gives an interpretation of

12:09

a player was doing and mates

12:11

and he has enough various investigations

12:13

and to nominate into an eerie.

12:15

this is some biological works I

12:17

find very interesting like a work

12:19

about whether M C animals really

12:22

and any more intelligence is also

12:24

or civics your obscure interesting things

12:26

that don't seem to have anything

12:28

necessarily to do with practical matters.

12:30

With the history of the Greek city states

12:32

may think that's I'm so that's one way

12:34

in which we say yes, the range that

12:36

we might expect of of. And

12:40

but I think the parallel lives even

12:42

on their own terms merit detention that

12:44

would give to for me off philosophical

12:46

works because. Even though his

12:48

primary interest as he tells us and

12:51

as we see when we just read

12:53

it is not investigating with say metaphysics

12:55

you know, the nature of the cosmos

12:57

or anything like this he has interested

12:59

in permanent thinks. He's. Interested in

13:02

understanding the souls, the human soul as

13:04

it exists always and everywhere and he

13:06

has a particular way investigating that you

13:08

know they they need felt. This literary

13:10

form that Ios is is nearly as

13:12

president and will do at which is

13:14

writing these parallel lives. You know not

13:16

just the biography that was dunlop for

13:18

to talk, I'm writing to biographies putting

13:20

them in parallel with one another and

13:22

I snuck. For this philosophical purpose that

13:24

he wants us to be able to

13:26

compare, interest come to a judgment about

13:28

these two individuals set in parallel with

13:30

one another in order to kind of

13:32

deepen our understanding of the souls and

13:34

he showing us. But it's inadvertent ethical

13:36

concerns. What is the human soul? What

13:38

are its virtues and vices? How do

13:40

we? I could investigate that? Understand it.

13:42

That's where I think the kind of

13:44

philosophical you know interest steps in live

13:47

shows up. To give

13:49

some examples of ways in which

13:51

are particular lives in which. Yeah.

13:53

The way that he tells it sort of makes. Some.

13:56

Sort of philosophical point. Yeah

13:59

sure. How am I am a

14:01

Muslim example for some like Ruckus a

14:03

new guys don't have written the most

14:05

developed for the think it's is the

14:08

one where the can have it in

14:10

the schools have content of to talk

14:12

is the clearest fifth and so we

14:14

see this in part in the narratives

14:16

that to sort of the stories he

14:18

picks out I'm in my Fergus is

14:20

case he describes the chasm process be

14:23

educational process that Lycurgus goes through prior

14:25

to giving the last a Spartan. He

14:27

says this includes at traveling around the

14:29

world to. Access in particular that Lycurgus

14:31

visits at a credence and the Ionian

14:34

sea and that the way he tries

14:36

understand am when it comes to was

14:38

sparta right as he puts the credence

14:40

in the eye on his in parallel

14:43

with one another and a person the

14:45

parallel to success in order to understand

14:47

their lives and their regimes so he

14:49

shows in the body of lies me

14:52

action of right. I'm a singer

14:54

who's going through the kind of intellectual

14:56

process that to talk himself sets up

14:58

for his reader. Putting. Things impair

15:01

alone order to understand not only their lives,

15:03

plaza, the political implications, the city, the regime

15:05

is it. those last reflect on so there's

15:07

lots of example like that and lots were.

15:09

one of his characters is kind of doing.

15:11

it's like selectively I'm like the ones that

15:13

at the trucks a tough and we also

15:16

see it though in the way to to

15:18

talk arranges the pairs of socks content so

15:20

the lycurgus noom at us to stick with

15:22

this example he gives us to lock Evers

15:24

they're very different partners or his. there's a

15:26

similar enough income from because they probably the

15:29

same character type the both. Giving loss

15:31

and but one is eminently practical

15:33

interested in the region competitions and

15:35

can harnessing the power of ambition

15:37

the love of honorees using it

15:39

for the good city slickers. The.

15:41

Other interested in more religious matters

15:43

In chewing it'll take advantage of

15:45

the souls capacity to wonder if

15:48

the world around it to be

15:50

curious about what's going on outside

15:52

the city. And it's interesting how

15:54

you harnesses passions, stamps. Which

15:57

Noom is exercising his nose and apart

15:59

so works. So we have

16:01

a similarity. They're also this fast difference

16:03

and a thinking about how these two

16:05

law givers show us the type in

16:07

different forms we should Atticus that are

16:09

content to be able to discover something

16:11

about the nature of law getting and

16:13

the you know the different potential that

16:15

we have in our soul. I'm always

16:17

seen eye to interact with loss in

16:19

politics different list. And

16:22

you think that there's something? kenneth? Movie.

16:24

Reference. To a basic have

16:26

a question that in a particularly a

16:28

tonic. About that project or

16:31

ways in which. Some. Of the

16:33

big names of philosophy that Plutarco,

16:35

with such a big fan as

16:37

themselves, actually come up. Yeah,

16:40

that's a really interesting question. I'm there's

16:42

something kind of platonic about. you know,

16:44

a B I and they've of. And

16:46

you know that plate issues as philosophy

16:48

as exists when of law spurs having

16:50

a conversation with other people are oh

16:52

that's so to sing point yes of

16:54

their characters right? Their characters am your

16:56

that the action when I was just

16:58

as important as the argument in many

17:00

cases in others with us. We're thanks.

17:02

To Talk shows us these characters

17:05

and dialogue as. Wise

17:07

as we see them interacting and speaking

17:09

with people, he also gives us a

17:11

lot of they're saying that memorable saying

17:14

some is by no means indifferent to

17:16

the speeches that the statesmen make. I'm

17:18

that said, The main kind of

17:20

dialogic action in The Lives is really between

17:22

the two members of the pair. You know

17:24

that's what we're presented to see is the

17:26

life apparently isn't life to save his life

17:29

like purposeless. Newman is almost as if we're

17:31

supposed to put them. Together.

17:33

Right into kind of conversation that we

17:35

create nord understand really in what with

17:37

learn from lives less different and player

17:39

but I think coming out of a

17:41

Rolex with comic view you know that

17:43

you need to see kind of am

17:45

different viewpoints interaction with each other in

17:47

order to really into the activity of

17:49

reasonings. Lost his. That's a really interesting

17:51

point and said it also strikes

17:53

me that it's really interesting juxtaposition

17:56

in a way it seems quite

17:58

controversial. Write the. Stuff. It

18:00

not regime for I think we

18:02

today are able to look back

18:04

on with much. understanding.

18:07

Or much sympathy and a lot of ways

18:09

on. And. Know Also I

18:11

mean stands for. And.

18:13

Unit a kind of religious fervor that

18:16

I think it also in some ways

18:18

hard for us to empathize with from

18:20

a governmental perspective on. So I guess

18:22

looking at this two. Different receivers.

18:26

Does. Does Plutarch seem to

18:28

close. How. Did he portray

18:30

them? Why? Are

18:32

we to screw over? I can be

18:34

all about the i'm enjoying a pure

18:36

sparta so I made a sort of

18:38

is it I think of. It.

18:41

And very broad since we look back on

18:43

it and thinking, but then you know we

18:45

dig into some of the details as it.

18:47

Is quite difficult to even raf are I

18:49

mean for our heads around but living in

18:52

society like that. Could. Even be

18:54

like it's just so radically different. From.

18:56

The way that we govern now I agree

18:58

completely I think is are lots of moral

19:01

commitments Third one yeah and fan of the

19:03

lead lead us to condemn different own and

19:05

running around loose bermuda slavery on down by

19:07

a right to actually are you throwing babies

19:10

are clearly. You

19:12

wouldn't recommend right? Change the policy proposal and

19:14

yet you have to talk is a says

19:16

it's broadly sympathetic view of Spartan and really

19:18

highlights the had defensible more appealing alliance of

19:20

it's that we have some messes with a

19:23

meal, might just be the tides of people

19:25

I hang out with my. Wanted to

19:27

do not want a certain announcer if I did this

19:29

come West Point is very smart and. Others

19:32

for sure I'm and the sound of

19:34

the toughness you know about the I'm

19:36

seeing the the military as as it's

19:39

a valuable like an avenue for you

19:41

know garrison one's one's virtue and month

19:43

commitment to the city or nation them

19:45

in the other these illnesses de. Cassis

19:49

course. But

19:54

I'm. Yes, But

19:56

as the best. So it is

19:59

different too. I

20:01

target. Interesting to me. Anyway, in Oregon

20:03

picks up the kind of what's a

20:05

more appealing aspects of Sparta without entirely

20:07

denying the others and life. Lycurgus for

20:09

instance is Francine a smart as this

20:11

kind of cosmos this ordered all with

20:13

internal motion competitions driving after Honor but

20:15

has a kind of beauty when you

20:17

stand back from it and see the

20:19

design of the whole thing. He tells

20:21

us that largely without talking about the

20:23

hell it's and but then in the

20:25

comparison in us we'll do a life

20:27

of one person's life of another always

20:29

Greek or Roman. But Any rights, these little

20:32

tax. Increases Right is

20:34

kind of comparison of judgment and I'm

20:36

in a in that particular judgment like

20:39

Ergas, New Months. He. Retreated

20:41

says he has some of the nasty

20:43

institutions. Or. Least.

20:45

Because else might Almost afraid and he

20:48

introduces that is something we should consider

20:50

when we're evaluating Like or Sonoma to

20:52

is a very interesting cigarette thinking how

20:54

important is generally sympathetic? Do it. It

20:56

gives a warts and all. Picture the

20:58

statement but doesn't wanna really can't overemphasize

21:00

towards. Let's say Spears was vindicating. Know

21:03

that even in doing that is where

21:05

have some of the problems to feed

21:07

her up a little. Bit about this

21:09

concept a sealer team yes as a

21:11

sort of the trucks complicated view that.

21:14

Yes to me at at Love

21:16

of Honor or we my translated

21:18

ambition that I think the Love

21:20

of honor that literal translation as

21:22

helpful because a it's the the

21:24

passion that that to talk statesmen

21:26

this assessment have a we have

21:28

to see so that's like to

21:30

be praised by other people's i'm

21:32

you know likes to avoid blame

21:34

whenever possible. It's painful and so

21:37

that there's a very old of

21:39

rebels dalglish to protect. Nice deal

21:41

with this tradition of last was

21:43

criticizing this passion. Saying that you don't

21:45

I might not be lowest passion that we

21:47

have, but it's broadly an accusation when you

21:49

say someone is ambitious. Plutarco in I was

21:51

aware of that critique of this passion in

21:54

some senses I think he shares on. I

21:56

don't think he halted out of the highest

21:58

possible thing, but when interesting, The end

22:00

of the way he presents for statement

22:02

to us is your call our attention

22:05

to the ways in which philip me

22:07

it is very important in living a

22:09

job. Positive virtuous life is a kind

22:12

of energy and the sole. If.

22:14

You're looking for a student to educate

22:16

to do great things you prefer. A

22:18

student is ambitious as opposed to someone

22:20

who's not ambitious. It off the bat

22:22

not because winning glory And you know,

22:24

having thousands of people telling her name

22:26

is necessarily the highest form of human

22:29

life, but there's a kind of longing

22:31

to do something big and notable and

22:33

a tad I can lead to virtue

22:35

and Internet standing in a displays also

22:37

can be channeled into you know, commitments

22:39

to virtue that it'll allow. Act for

22:41

truthfully brought this up with only one

22:43

is. Watching us to talk is really

22:46

think sensitive in a way that is

22:48

not unique but is particularly I think

22:50

worthwhile when were you know examining him

22:52

to be sensitive this of the value

22:54

of value of his passion, ambition. I

22:57

want to get a little bit more specific when

22:59

we talk about and Virtue and Pretax. I think

23:01

I mean if a major seen honestly in

23:03

the work and it's a really interesting topic

23:06

that I think sometimes he can just sort

23:08

of take the word for granted and not

23:10

really get into what it means. He had

23:12

this great float in your book from need

23:14

sat on that the. Characters. of

23:16

the tarp are raised in it and modern

23:18

way. That is to say,

23:21

become mature and accustomed to the heroic

23:23

am and I wonder if. He.

23:25

Would you look at the way that virtue

23:27

is portrayed in the cart? You agree with

23:29

me. Check that your something kind of fundamentally

23:31

on modern or for about it or if

23:33

you think that mostly it's kind of similar

23:35

with the way to think about political for

23:38

kids. Know. I

23:40

think there's something on modern and for me

23:42

I think us about you can books. That

23:44

means I don't think there's a whole lot

23:46

of value to reading books that just reaffirm

23:48

everything you think about it. I challenge you

23:51

to be something that you might have missed.

23:53

start. He and his options a sore from

23:55

i'm to talk holds up for admiration. States.

23:59

He says, isn't that there's a

24:01

particular way that virtues it's often

24:04

political life. That's. Worth contemplating admiring

24:06

emulating even if we don't do it in exactly

24:08

the way they did even a for like mayor

24:10

of a small town and Greece and maybe there's

24:12

something we can take it off from. This is

24:15

where it's it's been a maybe understand the passions

24:17

and runs or better. By. Virtue of

24:19

seeing them writ large Eight and in

24:21

these lives and we didn't mean to

24:23

read this kind of lives today. Rate

24:26

with we're difference have assumptions. I think

24:28

about the value of private versus public

24:30

lives. the value of in are pursuing

24:32

wealth vs pursuing honor. I mean we

24:34

start from a different of certainly different

24:36

assumptions about whether conquering people have a

24:38

good thing or a bad thing right?

24:41

There's all sorts of assumptions of which

24:43

are and he was at least starting

24:45

from that are different than ours am.

24:47

I don't think one. Necessarily as to

24:49

read to talk for Nietzsche in

24:52

recent terms of butter is very

24:54

for anything else, and it was

24:56

very hat widely read by virtually

24:58

every. Why does the are educated?

25:00

You know it and of a

25:02

partisan? It's partly I think because

25:04

of nature's. His

25:06

on a the fashion a little bit

25:08

in Oman people for ya tearing commitments.

25:10

I'm. Still

25:13

sorta we learn from this out his are

25:15

to say I mean evidence had a virtues

25:17

we see is Stephanie. More ancients effort use

25:20

them, are accustomed to courage vickers very prominently

25:22

and and pretences yourself and statesmanship. I don't

25:24

think in any way these are outmoded are

25:26

obsolete right? So the helpful correct of maybe

25:28

to some of our assumptions but it is

25:30

a bit untimely in a way that shit

25:33

I think be really appealing to us and

25:35

not a reason for it as think the

25:37

dark side. Yeah. I think the

25:39

idea of cancer and nothing really big

25:41

difference between ancient and modern ways of

25:44

looking at the world is really T.

25:46

and I think excessive excessive protect is

25:48

quite interesting because it's and south and

25:50

imperial subject on a Greek be ruled

25:53

by the Romans and then writing a

25:55

book. That really explicitly

25:57

compares those those two.

26:00

You. Know traditions and histories arm and so

26:03

I mean if a sort of the

26:05

broad question and maybe we can insert

26:07

broadly and than drill a little bit

26:09

deeper. but. I mean does it

26:11

is that? I

26:13

mean how do you kind of square

26:15

had attitude towards empire? Is it?

26:18

I think it seems to me basically

26:20

to be a positive view on with

26:22

his kind of own person. all. Ah,

26:24

Cultural position. Yeah,

26:27

that's a good and really

26:29

hard question out. And yeah,

26:31

so to talk doesn't give

26:33

us a whole lot in

26:35

terms of his political opinions

26:37

about politics of his own

26:39

day. It's not prevalent

26:41

on same the parallel lines exactly where he

26:44

falls on what kind of you know empire

26:46

had like live in a Morelia. sometimes it

26:48

comes up i think broadly to served as

26:51

be very broadly about it You could say.

26:53

That he's not a revolutionary. He

26:55

doesn't present himself at my name and

26:58

I do I'm He doesn't say at

27:00

the days when the Greek cities were

27:02

free were better. Were. The days

27:04

when Roman Republic. Is. Better therefore,

27:06

we should return to that, try to

27:08

restore it. He

27:10

says of fact the talking that

27:12

way is pretty dangerous and it

27:14

sacrifices the good things that the

27:16

Empire does preserve peace. Press says

27:18

pieces a good thing which access

27:20

right and it's of them we

27:22

have I'm in one of the

27:24

pieces and them rally. He says

27:26

that the Greek cities have some

27:28

freedom now and perhaps more freedom

27:30

wouldn't be better for them so

27:32

you know so a a seem

27:34

so broadly be I'm not revolutionary,

27:36

can probably safer. In part that

27:38

said, I think. He is in

27:40

favor of of a particular kind

27:42

of empire and against another I'm

27:45

so he seems to favor a

27:47

vision of the Greek empire in

27:49

which the city's the Greek cities

27:51

and other in subject people's are

27:53

relatively free. right? Which is to

27:55

say if Rome was calling all of the shots,

27:57

dictating to all of the local need Every officials.

28:00

That we would they should do or

28:02

that would be a worse situation. According

28:04

to Plutarco a meeting some freedom is

28:06

important for am click like not look.

28:09

Dignity and rewarding. He knows some good

28:11

for expression of ambition. am the susan

28:13

favorite that so if you the empire

28:15

was it is relatively more free as

28:17

opposed to help to less free. It's

28:19

a little bit like and tacit this

28:21

I you know where he oh he.

28:24

There's plenty of praise of the at

28:26

the noble senators, more courageous senators and

28:28

fastest criticism of senators who just. Kowtow

28:30

to the emperor's a flatter and so on

28:32

and it seems safe to say the task

28:34

this is in favor of a stronger rather

28:36

than a weaker senate within the empire. I

28:38

don't think it follows from that that he

28:41

wants to overturn the empire and restore public

28:43

Little bit like that and Aca sentiment in.

28:47

War on Up with a lead singer Survivors

28:49

Baylor. Before we we think about it was

28:51

untimely and what might be accessible to assume

28:53

modern to put on Saturdays. Writing Under the

28:55

Empire actually is a really important thing I

28:58

think to hold onto just in terms. Of

29:00

how we given our assumptions of sore from

29:02

relate to him. So he's writing at a

29:04

time when as he understands it. Politics.

29:07

And really great politics of the free

29:09

cities in the Republic aren't a certain

29:11

sense in the past. You. Know I

29:13

mean are there going on in a in a way to

29:16

and the empire but. There's a way

29:18

in which, like private life matters a lot more

29:20

to him than it does to the figures his writing

29:22

about. Because. He's living at a

29:24

time when love put the space is filled up

29:26

by the Romans and by the the Emperor the

29:28

chosen. The way he presents himself to us, you

29:30

know we have him as a local mayor and

29:32

that sort of thing. And. He also

29:35

tells us about his family. Near. He tells

29:37

us about his kids are we know

29:39

little bit about the kind of life

29:41

lived at home so this sensitivity to

29:43

the goodness of private life is something

29:45

that I think we notify more with

29:47

modern the need some mothers something with

29:49

that are particularly to this work and

29:52

I think in this to my reading

29:54

of him all the more interesting get

29:56

out that he. Holds. Up these

29:58

old force politics to us forever. Asian.

30:01

Food is aware attraction to this other way of could

30:03

about in public and private to. Him. And

30:05

it has been much for market find

30:08

that he is very focused on the

30:10

Republican period. As from

30:12

some. Is that I mean?

30:14

I guess there's a lot of debate about.

30:17

What! What? Sort of loyal? He's that reflects

30:19

on, but it does strike me as

30:21

something that. Gets. Pulled.

30:24

Through I'm A is a lot of

30:26

the thinkers who admire him. like Machiavelli

30:28

and like the Founders. This kind of.

30:30

Fixation. On that particular period

30:33

of Roman history to can you

30:35

speak a little bit to a

30:37

why it your best educated guess

30:39

why he sort of has that

30:41

so guests and be the ways

30:43

in which that has influenced later

30:46

thinkers. Yeah, I think he's

30:48

evil. For small, he's very consciously.

30:51

Writing. About how to killer period and

30:53

thought he says it's you're not just

30:55

by accident like humans have said, the

30:57

last of his Greeks powerful pokemon is

30:59

alive at the time when the Greek

31:01

cities fine we fall under the sway

31:03

of room practice on accident of last

31:05

of his Romans Anthony is alive when

31:07

the republic his way to the empire.

31:09

Read. To is very consciously picking a particular

31:11

constellation of politics, your music, the periods white

31:14

about why is he doing that on the

31:16

empire mean. One thing you can say which

31:18

is true is that it wasn't so weird

31:20

under the empire when his writing is do

31:22

you think about those this times and political

31:24

life it could be kind revolutionary. their thought

31:27

you put our was at a time said.

31:30

In nam the degree politics of his

31:32

day have to be very careful how

31:34

you invoke your marathon in and with

31:36

concrete battles were the Greeks are fires

31:38

any up to the first and then

31:40

and resisting a pass off because they

31:42

can we people tempest or had to

31:44

detectors thanks right? But he's speaking about

31:46

in a way I think because we

31:48

see must really the political virtues were

31:50

under republics under free cities and we

31:52

can then kind of understand the nature

31:54

of politics better as a kind of

31:56

a way of highlighting virtues that might

31:58

be a little bit untimely. Even in

32:00

two trucks own time, you know, and sit

32:02

at a meeting. The kind of dignity of

32:04

political life is a lot more evident when

32:07

you're contemplating parakeets. And when you're contemplating, you

32:09

know, a small town Mayor of Care now.

32:11

If the goal is to prevent

32:14

people from being hot headed and

32:16

doing crazy things, and why portray

32:18

people like Alexander? You.

32:20

Have Washington Partly we can learn to

32:22

seeing the excesses of us from the

32:25

dangers on Twitter for explicitly says and

32:27

one pair. The Dimitris Nathanael is going

32:29

to give us a negative example for.

32:32

Me other lives You know you're not this

32:34

on here. where surprise given is fairly solid

32:36

was get pictures with these people. Are.

32:39

You know there were more towards praise them blame

32:41

with say in general in the Dimitris as he

32:43

says and review bad example to learn what not

32:45

to do. That said the pretty much lives you

32:47

know they're on praiseworthy thinks, there's an analysis or

32:50

forward and now you know have a writer and

32:52

with as part of it's I think he wants

32:54

you to see you know kind of excesses as

32:56

well as just the virtues. Easy comes down the

32:59

salt because really fundamentally when it was to do

33:01

and. Sizes and me I think is

33:03

survivor history. As if I figure that

33:05

people necessarily look up to a very

33:07

compelling figure in a lot of ways.

33:10

But the talks been helped by

33:12

a lot of his readers, including

33:14

is this playwright is or a

33:16

second argument answer Sophocles our lives

33:18

are so eager is incredibly influential

33:20

family William Cigarettes lives at. Risk

33:23

of Us or is it for draws

33:25

deeply on the eyes and it's really

33:27

a you and nice way of we

33:29

love Shakespeare but haven't read to talk

33:31

wondering why an to stir reflect on

33:33

why Shakespeare sound this particular author Me

33:35

not only their hundred sonic us most

33:37

to but you found this particular authors.

33:40

Such a valuable window onto what ancient

33:42

get robbed was really about the secret

33:44

patch or for really is Julius

33:46

Caesar front of my mouth and stones

33:49

placed on i think. One. Of

33:51

the points that you make in your

33:53

book that is really interesting is that

33:55

we are currently having had a crisis

33:57

as Citizenship and the Plutarch. Hand.

34:00

Be useful for. That and that goes along

34:02

with a general on the lack of appreciation

34:04

for the genre of biographies, so I want

34:06

to take a little bit. Time. To

34:09

talk about the genre of biography. On.

34:11

Because it seems. That it

34:14

is very popular genre on in

34:16

a lot of different forms. on

34:18

the including hot Historians. Britney.

34:21

Spears and by ordered autobiography the Big I

34:23

mean it. It's sort of a funny, ridiculous

34:25

parallel, but I mean. That. sort

34:27

of style of you know that each

34:29

person or car kurt about Motivations definitely

34:32

have a a lot of popular swell.

34:35

And yes, Food. Have

34:38

particular style. As we've discussed is

34:40

very much out of favor with in

34:42

the Academy broadly. So. Key

34:44

Talk a little bit about. What?

34:46

You think actually our republic needs and

34:48

can gain from this type of writing?

34:51

We. Talk about food are big goal. What's

34:53

your because? assess? Yeah. I'm

34:55

not ready to productions a blue Public

34:57

Services as he was recruited of on

35:00

that's probably a little too much or

35:02

will be branded. As you know, it

35:04

can't hurt. I'm yeah, saw a biography.

35:07

It's really fascinating to me to the

35:09

sadness of biography in general up today.

35:11

And to talk he knows because the

35:14

prince of Biographers by Boswell easily of

35:16

really have a prominent kind of an

35:18

entrepreneur in the field and biography. I'm

35:20

he He. Piracy

35:23

today seems to me it wants to be

35:25

very popular. Food Deserts like you

35:27

see. Biographies referred me on the

35:29

bestseller list. Autobiographies Memoirs very popular

35:31

as well and incredibly well done.

35:33

I would not immune to million

35:35

years I have not read Britney

35:37

Spears. part of a non smoker

35:39

says he added. I will say

35:42

I'm a Bruce Springsteen Autobiographies one

35:44

the best Really? Yeah, I er

35:46

visit read em good period and

35:48

is really amazing so they're very

35:50

very good boss. I'm put off

35:52

notably doesn't right, You know biographies

35:54

of. Of artists or a phosphorus and

35:57

some other way we can. Tennessee's interests and says

35:59

man and plus. Like your my body and

36:01

excludes for his interest but we live

36:03

in a goal is a biography or

36:05

you know a I'm Robert Harris biographies

36:07

or the of them. As

36:09

never. Yeah, I read in the dim, colorless,

36:11

wonderful A even Walter Isaacson I think it

36:14

is. You know again, like focusing on a

36:16

type of person that the darkest right about

36:18

that really fantastic in a words that are

36:20

very popular. So and so what is about

36:22

biographies that means so much to us? To

36:26

talk says when he talks about what

36:28

he is doing and writing a biography,

36:30

it's that you as images wouldn't for

36:32

the signs of the soul that he's

36:34

giving us intimate access to people who

36:36

because they're famous and new well known

36:38

right? A The. Way it is a think

36:40

of them as far off right? Not really to

36:42

see them as real human beings and to talk

36:45

in length and it takes us inside the tent.

36:47

You know let's assume up close really understand who

36:49

they are, what the passions are in their soul,

36:51

You know what their. It's what they were like

36:53

when he spoke to them. that can be really

36:56

appealing. I think it exists at sense of intimacy

36:58

with someone who otherwise seems really big, far off.

37:01

And. That's interesting. it made it feel sort

37:03

curiosity is maybe wonder and it's highest

37:05

spirit of worms songs as expresses have

37:07

that way. I think the reason to

37:09

talk really loves that sacked the power

37:12

gives you isn't so much as to

37:14

kill a curiosity or teachers but details.is

37:16

as but he holds how biographies having

37:18

the classic capacity to shape the reader

37:20

soul. In. A way that

37:22

other forms of writing do not

37:24

seem so he says, for instance,

37:26

in the same in introduction to

37:29

the Pair Cleese that when human

37:31

beings see a virtuous deed, It's.

37:33

Different than looking at a beautiful statue

37:35

are looking at in a someone who

37:38

has a skill like playing piano really

37:40

well we see virtuous deed. There's something

37:42

in us this is to talks analysis

37:44

of our Sos price that just response

37:46

to that in a way that we

37:48

want to do that to. We.

37:50

Want to connect emulate someone with were shown virtue

37:53

in the right way? So.

37:55

He understands himself to be.

37:57

Acting as a kind of intermediary between

37:59

what he calls the noble right it

38:01

going, And. Us.

38:04

The readers. By. Means

38:06

of these figures that he can hold thousand

38:08

and give us a kind of intimate access

38:10

to. it Shut Such a way that we

38:12

really can be inspired year with differently ship

38:14

around so can see how we measure up

38:16

to scrape people He's Holden out to us.

38:19

He thinks that that happens and biography in

38:21

a way that it doesn't in when you're

38:23

reading just a history or dialogue or like

38:25

that and that's. Something

38:27

I for back of my a little

38:29

bit exaggerated. But. I've seen this

38:31

happen. You know, in teaching to talk and

38:33

in setting biographies that if you really want

38:35

to inspire someone to live a particular way

38:37

of life, And there's any else

38:40

is this is true my own life

38:42

to mean there's the others know I'm

38:44

better way six. In really reading a

38:46

biography and trying to understand what that

38:48

life really is like, you know from

38:50

the person's perspective. He. Has

38:53

really like. The way the effect that because

38:55

it does strikes me that given that attracted

38:57

actually quite a bit. More practical. Than

39:00

a lot of people might initially sense. I

39:02

mean, even within their sort of oppression of

39:04

our she met these manatees practical broadly and

39:06

then mirror. Fashion or is it practical

39:09

to. Read: someone is assessing the she sings

39:11

out. Of that's

39:13

a little far as had discussed but

39:15

probably say that I really especially given

39:18

the you teach at West Point which

39:20

is a very practical oriented institution. I

39:22

wonder if you could speak a little

39:25

bit to the practicality of put a

39:27

car or ways in which is seen

39:29

it impacts people. Yeah.

39:32

I think the humanities are practical and

39:34

they're not practical right? every day to

39:36

day? So that in a deli subway

39:39

I approached these books like to talk.

39:41

I mean. I really couldn't care

39:43

less with her else Mr To promoted

39:45

as her his origin or get a

39:47

better job and business or whatever that

39:50

Amy Pascal demand is nice. I guess

39:52

this man can actually be pretty much

39:54

better jobs. Because

39:58

the reason why we engage with this. And

40:00

we read each of these books because of this. Deep.

40:03

Really important practical matters. how should we live?

40:05

Fish is a question is what has to

40:07

answer in our own way and we have

40:09

lots of different options for how to live.

40:11

Well one of them is the kind of

40:13

political life that the to talk holds up

40:15

to us allows us to understand but it's

40:17

weaknesses and what's really attractive beautiful down it.

40:19

So it to me that's a very practical

40:21

thing but it's not the sort of thing

40:23

we're worried about. you know it is kind

40:25

of him. demand the world or thought that

40:27

am I talked to talk about. This is

40:29

a real privilege of teaching to talk. In.

40:32

An institution. The mission of

40:34

which is to educate, train inspired leaders

40:36

of character for lifetime of surfaced in

40:38

the army and the nation. Hum West

40:40

waves at Take submission really seriously and

40:43

it really if uses everything that's done.

40:45

They're made from military training to what

40:47

happens in the classroom am and it's

40:49

a wonderful environment in which to really

40:51

study. You know great leaders from the

40:53

past and try to understand from them

40:55

not you know as matters your worship

40:57

by long shot. But. Just understand all

41:00

the ways that human beings can do

41:02

well when they live lives of you

41:04

know public service is and co ops

41:06

wrong track as he went about those

41:09

early on to and so I was.

41:11

Actually, I think there's something about the

41:13

environment. Or

41:15

so. And software. And

41:19

really appreciate send their own

41:22

see as people who. Actually

41:24

did. We were. Targeted. Very extremely

41:26

strict for the fact. Away I'll be remiss

41:28

given that for the Madison, far as I didn't ask

41:30

a little bit about the. Founders and.

41:33

Fell before we start asking the

41:35

sucks Did the tracks where in

41:37

fact the founding fathers. It. Had

41:39

a big impact of is really sorry.

41:43

South I yeah, I mean you know

41:45

a lot of the pseudonyms of a

41:47

user in the Federalist papers for Wisconsin

41:50

life a public allies with compared with

41:52

Soul on I'm yeah but a lot

41:54

of others to Brutus a Keto lot

41:56

of the people we know from the

41:58

synonyms of the of Earnest right. The

42:00

time the founders come to some projects

42:02

basically effect as lot deeper than that.

42:04

I'm A, you know we have added

42:06

the notebooks that Alexander Hamilton as a

42:08

young in the camp. George Washington's kept

42:10

our best as we can tell by

42:12

a kind of candlelight. Understand, you know

42:14

he read the lives of Plutarch as

42:16

a time when he knew that it

42:19

was involved in something great you the

42:21

founding of New Republic and he really

42:23

started them carefully. took notes on Andrew

42:25

expressions trust. And

42:28

less Spartans. Of

42:30

so you know this a day after they seem

42:32

to have had a really. Intimate

42:34

impact on a number

42:36

of. Sounders. I'm

42:38

in terms of just what are we doing,

42:41

what is putting life, what is the nature

42:43

of the passions were bring to this as

42:45

leaders you know in this great new enterprise

42:47

that seems in some way or another to

42:50

be kind of resonant with person suffers about

42:52

nature history I say another way that it

42:54

had that to Turkey Empathic helps us get

42:56

a window onto the founding period. In this

42:59

point out a reasonable to me my alongside

43:01

army and I was there to and Freeman

43:03

my mother or Smith's Point at. The.

43:06

American founders were moved not only by

43:08

in a virtue certainly not the only

43:10

by like wealth mets were thing but

43:12

I honor. By. The idea that they

43:15

would be in appraised remembered for long time

43:17

if they enterprise they were involved in word

43:19

spreads and they were ambitious non the low

43:21

sense but in the really great sense and

43:24

I think there's a way which that passion

43:26

that that many of them probably most than

43:28

hadn't their souls really resonated with what they

43:30

saw on the page of the dark so

43:33

it goes back to his passion for to

43:35

me that we're talking about E O M

43:37

F elo t most person can spots other

43:39

fella team. Recently

43:42

focus my the ambitious and I think. The

43:44

ambitious it can also spots and authors like

43:46

to talk to help them to really reflect

43:48

on that passion to see different forms of

43:50

it so they can understand better how to

43:52

live as an ambitious person in the noble

43:54

virtuous way and not end up like meters

43:57

as near bunch of other facts or what

43:59

the wrong way. Have

44:01

been a scholar sweetheart made

44:03

you read the genre of

44:05

biography in general differently. Yes,

44:08

Pass I'm I'm much more conscious. I think

44:10

of the ethical impact of biography than I

44:13

was with no mood or like I'm I'm

44:15

a little more conscious of the fact that

44:17

reading As Life with the Steve Jobs or

44:20

for Springsteen can have on the way. You

44:22

know, if you made my own least we're

44:24

think about different. you know him from him.

44:26

I have and so on. So am I.

44:29

Think that happens whether you're conscious of it

44:31

or not when you read my oversee. But.

44:34

If you're reading a great bag for

44:36

and reflecting on what he was doing

44:38

when he wrote biography I think really

44:40

highlights and that an element of really

44:42

bad as is another way to protect

44:44

definitely impacted me is. Out we

44:47

have relatively few parallel lives, even though

44:49

I did read arguably live in a

44:51

golden age, a biography this idea of

44:53

writing biographies together and a that's not

44:55

quite as in fashion as it was.

44:57

you know, in which which arms writing

44:59

out for swimming and he made it.

45:01

It's awesome. I'm in, it's he. I

45:03

think about that a lot to like.

45:06

There's a way in which like comparing

45:08

and contrasting similar sorts of lives I

45:10

think has a particular kind of off

45:12

significance. I'm that Iraq has carried into

45:14

my own practice. I'm reading magazines and

45:16

holding. Up People lox. Ah. Yeah.

45:21

It's a really lovely point an and

45:23

then one last question. the closest out

45:26

here on. Having

45:28

read one of the few people who is

45:30

sat through the entirety of the lies that

45:32

you click on this mess it strikes me

45:34

that a lot of text and you to

45:36

think of the data For instance in. Have

45:38

you read the Bible? There are certain

45:40

tests but maybe feel sort is uniquely

45:42

presents from. Do you ever have that

45:45

sense reading Plutarch? and are there particular

45:47

lives that you feel like seem as

45:49

if they ought to have been written

45:51

for people today? Well.

45:56

All of the lives are worth reading. Coming to

45:58

Die. For yeah, The

46:00

issue to govern government heard about. they

46:02

weren't able to assess assess novel or

46:04

so all Missouri three but in some

46:07

of them inevitably have particular resonance given

46:09

the kind of politics am you're living

46:11

through. And for me I know I

46:13

mentioned Lycurgus New I just as being

46:16

I think the most useful pair for

46:18

getting sensible Pluto is doing with the

46:20

project as a whole to I think

46:22

that's not a bad place to start

46:25

and I've become very interested in discussions

46:27

around the decline of the Republic you

46:29

know, Whether America are you know the last

46:31

wherever I lost my them are in a

46:33

moment to kind of Oliver and Little. My.

46:38

Heart's the Dark as a few pairs

46:40

of life that are particularly valuable for

46:42

contemplating that question neither the issue of

46:44

decline and fall and at when how

46:46

to live well at a time when

46:48

you know either there's an opportunity for

46:50

a new or maybe not it's I'm

46:52

into this. Recommend a few of those

46:54

and so put art in a route.

46:56

Twenty two pairs of biographies. We have

46:58

forty six lives that are in the

47:01

per lives. The reason that we have

47:03

forty six, not forty four as you're

47:05

at one pair that, especially health care

47:07

costs, exactly. I'm an easy. Spartan kings

47:09

paired with the groggy at a great

47:11

now reformers a know of Rome and

47:13

I think that pair is particularly

47:15

resonate with some of our concerns. And

47:18

in that isn't clown, these are consciously

47:20

trying to restore a regime under

47:22

they understand to have fallen away from

47:24

it's kind of original intent in one

47:27

way or another is actually reads

47:29

the life of like Kirkus becomes familiar

47:31

with his way of life, he engages

47:33

in this kind of activity that

47:36

the dark or else is motivating whole

47:38

project. On the basis of have

47:40

reading and left like I decided to

47:42

try to restore. Of

47:45

he said he'd the ominous try

47:47

it. It's an interesting things to

47:49

contemplate crappy to try in their

47:51

own way to restore the Old

47:53

Republic and I hope it won't

47:55

be spoiling everything for a have

47:57

listeners the or everyone else to

47:59

say doesn't necessary really work out

48:01

as they planned. does. I think

48:03

a very good lesson for anyone

48:05

is concerned with projects frustration of

48:07

running off As contemplate I'm in

48:09

a slightly gloomier side of that.

48:11

Maybe I'm there's a pair that

48:13

I really love. The Cato yeah

48:15

I gave younger and so cannot

48:17

see. I'm an homage and to

48:19

I'm focused on I think is

48:21

most underrated of the tracks myself.

48:23

I really do not director my

48:25

math and fuck out of the

48:27

statesmen am when Athens is falling

48:29

under. The sway of mastodon

48:31

who. Opposes. The

48:34

mosque nice to mask and he says will

48:36

fight them at the beaches we will never

48:38

have given. We must oppose them and maintain

48:40

Athens independence. All costs such as as was

48:42

probably given. His I am the

48:44

hook me up the Athens we use today.

48:46

We should make our peace, get the best

48:48

possible deal we can. I'm. He

48:51

does that in a way that

48:53

shows you. The. Virtues.

48:55

Ah, associated with that kind of

48:57

position, which is now we're accustomed

48:59

to take. Away

49:03

the power to talk start his biographer

49:05

that is able to hold up someone

49:07

like focus and or gives access to

49:09

the kinds of roaches you know that

49:12

that that life and tales of and

49:14

also in a lettuce really think about

49:16

the limitations that way of relating. Typically

49:18

I'm false first as some others that

49:20

are maybe more obviously noble. Or

49:23

thank you so much to. This is

49:26

an absolutely a fascinating discussion and I

49:28

we absolutely encourage listeners to read the

49:30

Carol Alliance that also if they're too

49:33

long. Then. She has a really

49:35

wonderful book on it, which will be linked

49:37

in the short sentences the day. He

49:50

put his initial. Of

49:55

need you here for that. Same

49:58

t and thing. And

50:08

according. At all the really fascinating

50:11

about half. Past can

50:13

also find us on social

50:15

media on Twitter hat Madison

50:17

program as well as on

50:19

Instagram and Think That. Finally,

50:22

if you enjoy this episode he

50:24

do consider. Leaving us any meetings

50:27

or with you. We really do.

50:29

Appreciate it again. Thank you

50:31

so much for tuning in

50:33

and a kiwi masterpiece! Year

50:35

on Madison.