0:00

- Todd and Rob in the afternoon. - Hey, afternoon - Delight

0:07

- With Todd and Rob. Oh, yeah.

0:11

- Oh yeah. And here we are back in the studio.

0:14

Yo, of course you never left your studio, Rob, so

0:17

- I know that's true. Happy. Well, I did for, for a little bit.

0:20

I went back to Seattle for, for four days, uh, last week

0:24

to spend time with my father. So, so I did, uh, get outta the studio a little bit anyway,

0:31

but yeah, not as much traveling as I used

0:33

to do in the earlier days of podcasting, so, - So, ha, happy Friday to you.

0:38

- Thank you. Same - To you. And, and we are doing this on a Friday,

0:42

because yours truly

0:46

was traveling. All kinds of traveling <laugh>. Yeah.

0:51

And, uh, we wanted to get a show out this week,

0:53

so here we are. And we do have a few things,

0:57

I think, a few things to talk about. But most importantly, I had to, uh,

1:02

I left my headphones in my bag at the house <laugh>,

1:06

and I didn't wanna wear big ear muffins today, so I ran over

1:11

to, I don't even wanna say the, the store's name,

1:15

and bought the most cheapest in-ear

1:18

earphones I possibly could get. And it sounds like I'm talking in a tin can. So <laugh>.

1:24

- Yeah. I think it's, it's kind of remarkable that I,

1:27

I watch a lot of, you know, YouTube slash podcasts,

1:32

um, on a, on a regular basis. Don't say that

1:34

- Word in one word. I'm surprised.

1:37

- I know <laugh>, I'm surprised at

1:39

how many people are wearing those big, big headphones still when there's so many of these

1:45

behind the ear, in the ear kind of things

1:48

that you can wear. So, - Well - Look, look a lot better on

1:52

video if you're gonna do video. At least look the part, right?

1:56

- <laugh>? Yeah. Well, you know, that's, that's their, that's their in, that's their, uh,

2:00

that's their issue, you know? No,

2:03

- It is, but it's, I think a lot of people just either,

2:07

they really value the quality of the audio

2:09

that you can get out of those headphones, which I appreciate.

2:12

Um, and they're certainly a value to that.

2:15

I think a lot of people have told people over the years

2:18

that, you know, for you to really hear all

2:21

of the finer details of your audio quality, that you have

2:24

to have these really fancy headphones. - Well, the, I'm gonna tell you, the $6

2:27

and 88 cents ones that I bought work

2:30

- Were - Good. Well, they don't, they're horrible

2:33

- <laugh>. Well, yeah, but they, but you can hear what I'm saying

2:37

- At least. Yeah, yeah, - Yeah.

2:39

Right. And, you know, and then there's always these - Well, that's true.

2:42

Those aren't too bad actually, in all. - No, actually, I use these for most of my calls.

2:46

- And what Rob was holding up was a wired wired, uh,

2:51

the old, the old school. It's the, - It's the apple - Wired Yeah.

2:55

The wired one in - Here kind of thing.

2:57

- Right. But it was hard finding a wired earbud.

3:01

I, I everything was wireless. And I, you know, I don't, I I have a wired connection here.

3:07

So, anyway, uh, here we are. Welcome back everyone.

3:10

Hope everyone's doing well. Lots of news.

3:12

And of course, you know, uh, another 1500 people I've been laid off at,

3:18

uh, at Spotify. Okay. - You wanna start off there? Yeah, I wanted to start off,

3:23

and I put it in the title art for, for this,

3:25

that I think we're going through a, a little bit

3:27

of a podcasting reset right now. I mean, if you look at all of the various pieces

3:32

of what's happening and what's been happening for,

3:34

for a while now, it's, it feels very reminiscent of

3:38

what happened, um, back in 2008, 2009 timeframe, where,

3:43

where we just saw this kind of upheaval in the industry in a reset

3:47

and kind of, you know, the deck chairs are being rearranged,

3:51

and, and, and in this case it's like personnel right there, there,

3:55

there's a lot of people being displaced from some

3:58

significant players in the podcasting space.

4:01

Uh, and, um, and it's gonna, cause there's,

4:05

there's consequences for that, right? There's going to be, generally,

4:10

there are positive consequences 'cause that that talent gets spread around the industry

4:15

and o over time that turns into, you know, long term,

4:19

newer opportunities. - Well, I, I think what it is,

4:22

is I think the economy's in the crapper and, uh, it's

4:26

- Declining. It's not not - Going on.

4:29

No. And I think that, uh, you know, I I,

4:32

I don't know if you heard about Twitch, we can talk about that in a minute.

4:35

Not Twitch. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, but twit, yeah.

4:38

Um, so 150,000, excuse me,

4:43

1500 laid off at Spotify.

4:46

And I don't know how, of course there's no idea how many of those folks were

4:50

- On the podcast, - Were on the podcasting side. But it goes back to my, it goes back to my analogy

4:56

that free is not a business model. And even though Spotify has a paid tier,

5:04

they have a lot more people using that service for free

5:07

than they do that pays for it.

5:11

And you have, you know, a huge number

5:15

of podcasters that are over there

5:19

for free, costing them money.

5:22

So, you know, we'll, we'll see, we'll see how this, uh,

5:26

over time, how this, how this pans out.

5:30

Um, you know, what happens when, uh, Spotify all

5:33

of a sudden says to their podcasters, you gotta pay $20 a month

5:37

or $30 a month, uh, to be hosted over there, all of a sudden

5:40

that doesn't become such a great deal. And, uh, and it it will happen if they continue

5:46

to lose money in the way that they will have

5:50

to tighten their belt, and they will have to either cut services, uh,

5:54

otherwise they go outta business. - Well, 17% of their staff is a, that's a,

5:59

that's a couple notches on the belt. Right? That's,

6:02

- And you know, they said that their upcoming severance

6:04

costs alone will cause them to go into the red again,

6:10

uh, between a hundred and $116 million, where if they hadn't flushed nine

6:16

or a billion dollars down the toilet already,

6:20

and their piss poor strategy in their

6:25

podcast strategy, um,

6:28

I think their only win over there has been Rogan. - Yeah. And I think part of what's happened is that it is

6:36

that I think, um, you know, a lot

6:38

of the companies are moving away from these guaranteed deals with talent now. Wow. Um,

6:44

- That's given - They were never a very smart thing to do.

6:49

Um, I mean, I know I, I faced a lot of situations with

6:53

that too, and I just took my head and just go, I know you guys want

6:57

me to do these kind of deals. Yeah. But it's like they don't actually make any sense

7:01

to do, um, especially when it's on new shows

7:05

that you have no proven track record on.

7:07

Right, right. And, but that, that's what I mean.

7:10

It was only like a year ago when people were,

7:14

and so now we're hearing this rhetoric around dumb money and smart money.

7:17

So that's the phase that we're coming out of is dumb money.

7:20

And now we're moving into people that manage their money

7:24

a little bit better and, and more, - And of course, Spotify, Spotify, CFO quit too,

7:30

12.6 million. Well, you know, he's in in stock options he had.

7:35

- Yeah. He kind of, kind of di dipped, um, just,

7:38

just before the bad news. Right. - So, well, you know, the stock actually went up then

7:42

they, when they announced that. So maybe,

7:45

and they said it was automated trains, the stuff

7:47

that were already, was already scheduled. So, yeah. But you know, that's, you know, you, you

7:53

- Probably knew it was coming. Right? I mean, is he gonna get in trouble

7:56

for insider trading To some degree, but I don't know.

7:59

- I mean, who knows - If the stock went up just prior

8:03

to him selling, then maybe that gets him off.

8:06

- Yeah. But, um, you know,

8:09

and it goes back to this post I saw on twit.

8:13

Twits, LLC is laying off people previous this week, Leo said

8:17

that he is 1.1 million in the minus for 2024.

8:23

So the needs to get more subscriber at $7 per month

8:26

or people will be fired, or twit LLC will be closed.

8:31

That is a shocker. - So you're talking about, um, um,

8:36

- Leo LaPorte. - Leo LaPorte. Right. Okay. - I thought on twit,

8:40

- I get sometimes confused with Twitch and Twit sometimes.

8:42

- Well, no, we're talking about twit. - Yeah. Yeah. I saw he let, uh, Jason Howell go.

8:47

- Yeah, I saw that. And it's all because there's so much in the red,

8:51

probably couldn't afford a salary no more. And, uh, yeah. And it,

8:56

- I mean, all those people out there that, that were saying

8:58

that there's not a serious event happening in the podcast

9:02

advertising industry have been kind of blowing - Smoke up. Right. Right.

9:05

- People's, whatever, you know, and,

9:07

and this has been going on for quite a while.

9:09

It's just that the industry's been like, no,

9:12

no, no, it's not a problem. It's not a problem. But, uh, guess what,

9:15

these things wouldn't be happening if it wasn't a problem. - And, and I saw some comments in a variety of beds that,

9:20

uh, windows Weekly and security now are probably the only two shows over there

9:24

that are that profitable. And again, I haven't listened to either one

9:27

of those in years, but I also read some other commentary.

9:32

Um, and again, I have nothing to know.

9:36

I don't listen to any of Leo's shows at this point,

9:39

and I haven't for a number of years. But someone,

9:43

- When is that exactly? I, it's an interesting

9:46

'cause the same thing has happened to me. I used to listen to Windows Weekly every, every week. Yeah.

9:51

- Now, but what was, what was really interesting

9:57

was that several people

10:01

in this thread that I'm reading made the comment,

10:06

and I don't know, again, those of you that listen to twit,

10:08

maybe you can tell me or tell us if this is true,

10:12

but they went pretty woke over there, and I didn't realize that.

10:18

And if they did, again, I don't know.

10:23

- Well, they are just outta San Francisco, so,

10:26

- Well, it's a tech how can, you shouldn't be woke if you're tech,

10:30

you should be politically neutral. Oh,

10:32

- Well, Todd's some of the biggest woke companies in the world

10:36

are in Silicon Valley, - So, well, no, but I'm talking about the content

10:40

shouldn't be, if you're doing tech content,

10:42

it should be non-political - Y.

10:47

Yeah. - I do a tech show. It's non-political.

10:52

- Yeah. - I'm an equal opportunity bachelor.

10:56

You know, I, I I just tell people what I think and,

10:59

but I, I don't try to put a political spin on it.

11:03

- Yeah. But his everything turned political now, Todd,

11:06

so I'm talking about any topic. Um, somebody out there could spin it as a political,

11:10

- Well, may, maybe, maybe true. But you know, the, that's problem,

11:14

the announcement outta Disney recently

11:16

where they basically said that their,

11:22

I guess, internal stuff where they've lost a lot

11:25

of money on movies was not matching

11:28

what the American public wanted. So I, again, I don't know, I, I don't listen to, to twitch.

11:34

So I saw a, or twit a

11:36

- Meme on Disney that was talking about, um, how,

11:41

how people are claiming that

11:45

Disney's made more bomb movies right. Than Lockheed Martin.

11:48

- So, yeah. Yeah. And at the same time, you know,

11:53

now the word is on the street. And of course, we, we, uh, Mike, I

11:57

and Mackenzie recorded our 2024

12:01

predictions show. We do one of these every year. And, uh, let's do that

12:06

- A little bit on this episode too. Let's - Talk about what's - Coming through.

12:09

- Yeah, yeah. So I, I, I won't, I won't say

12:11

what Mike predicted <laugh> for, for his, uh,

12:16

for his predictions, but it, it revolved around Google

12:19

and YouTube <laugh>, and it wasn't necessarily positive.

12:23

Um, so, you know, I think that, uh, we will, we'll have

12:27

to see what transpires in 2024.

12:29

But, um, I really, you know, I, I've said, already said,

12:34

what I think is gonna happen, I think real simple,

12:37

AI is going to continue to advance. And, uh, companies are gonna be using it, uh, a lot more.

12:43

And they'll be offering tools. Um, matter of fact, I started testing our tool this morning.

12:49

Um, and then there's going to be, uh, um, as,

12:54

as I've said already in the show, real voices are going

12:57

to be winning. Uh, people are gonna be seeking out voices like you and I

13:03

and other podcast content.

13:08

And we need, we should not lose sight of the fact

13:12

that podcasting is a medium, is very special

13:16

and very unique, unlike, unlike many others, in that

13:22

we are truly in our listener's head, Literally.

13:27

And it's the most intimate form of content done.

13:31

I, I, I was listening to, um, I rode the train from Chicago,

13:36

and I haven't, I, this is the first time I've done

13:38

Amtrak since I was a kid. Um, and I rode Amtrak from Chicago to a Battle Creek,

13:45

which is about a two hour, 45 minute run.

13:48

And I listened to a couple of podcasts, and a couple of times the audio got so real,

13:57

I had to take an earbud out and make sure that it wasn't coming from

14:01

my computer speaker. It sounded like the person was

14:04

right in front of me talking to me. And I, I don't know if I'd experienced that in a while.

14:12

And it just kind of was kind of weirded me out just a little.

14:16

But it just, it brought me back to the realization

14:21

that we really are right there as close

14:25

as we possibly can be. People are riding along with us right now. And

14:30

- Yeah, I think as the technology gets better too,

14:33

we're we're pushing into kind of newer

14:36

experiences around audio too. More spatial audio Yeah.

14:39

And things like that, that, um, can, can really enhance

14:42

that listening experience, - Some of the really - Give that depth and perception.

14:45

- Yeah. Some of the TikTok stuff that's coming out right now, it's got some incredible

14:48

spatial audio, but I, you know,

14:50

I think it's just gonna get better. So maybe my prediction is maybe in 2024, more of

14:55

that will be employed. I don't know. Um,

14:58

- Well, I think audio quality is continued. Yeah. It's going to continue to get better.

15:02

I mean, 'cause I, I know that there are a lot of companies out there working on trying to make, um,

15:07

recording audio and all sorts of different environments.

15:10

I mean, I mean, you know, that I've been working in that area Yeah.

15:13

And, and, and trying to enable people to record anywhere

15:17

and have it good, be good audio quality.

15:20

And I think that's a powerful move in that direction.

15:25

- So, you know, I think from that perspective, uh,

15:29

and that's kind of where my heart is, that's where I think it's gonna happen.

15:32

You know, it's, um, we're

15:37

- Watching, companies aren't gonna be around either. Um, I mean, just look, look what's happening to Castro.

15:44

I know that there's a lot of fans of that app out there.

15:47

Uh, it's been active for a long time, but like we've said on this show for many years, it's,

15:51

it's difficult for podcast apps to, um,

15:56

remain economically viable because there's not a lot of sources of revenue

16:00

for them unless they sell - Subscriptions.

16:02

Right. Well, this is where the, the model,

16:07

uh, and we are lit in live today, by the way.

16:10

Um, it's - Been a while - To know this is, this is where the model

16:13

of giving value back to the apps as well as the podcasters

16:17

to the value for value live streaming Satoshis is, is key.

16:22

Um, so I don't know.

16:26

We'll, we'll see, we'll see what happens with, uh,

16:28

with layoffs and, and company survival.

16:32

Um, we're definitely, go ahead. - Oh, I was just, I was just gonna mention too, I know that,

16:37

that there was, um, some talk about, um, some concern

16:42

that the, um, the, the IAB, um,

16:47

was maybe not being supported, um, on renewals, um,

16:52

on podcast metrics standards. - I, I'll just say this, there is a,

17:00

those companies that are not currently on the current

17:04

standard know they're on the clock and they know that next year they're going to have to,

17:11

'cause what are they gonna, so they weren't required

17:16

to maintain certification. There wasn't basically there between versions.

17:23

Uh, it wasn't completely clear, and I don't wanna get into politics of it,

17:26

but I don't think there's gonna be any doubt that those companies that are on that list will renew when,

17:32

because there's a new ver there's another re another version

17:37

of the spec coming. And I, there'll be a public comment period at some

17:43

point here soon, I believe. - Okay. - And once that's released, then

17:48

what I think you'll see is those companies jump in and,

17:52

and get recertified. So

17:55

- I can see it just from a cost cutting standpoint

17:57

that they built this technology. It seems like it's working for everyone.

18:02

Um, unless there's a significant benefit to upgrading to

18:05

that next version, um, or,

18:08

or certification, you know, the cost involved in

18:13

adhering to that, um, officially is, is pretty high. Right?

18:18

- The cost is, the cost for the cost is gonna be annual going forward.

18:24

You'll have to renew annually moving forward. Mm-Hmm.

18:29

<affirmative> and the cost that's

18:31

- Gonna play into just the big platforms that can afford it.

18:34

- It, they have lowered the cost. - Oh, they have? Yeah. I

18:38

- Didn't realize that. And I don't know if I'm at liberty to say

18:40

what the cost is or not. Well, - Yeah, I don't think you have to, but it's, I

18:45

think it's good that it's not onerous

18:47

because that was driving a, a rebellion,

18:50

- Right? Well, the first - On the side of smaller - Platforms, the first certification cost us 35,000.

18:56

- Yeah. Oh, I, I remember that. - And the renewal was not that much.

19:02

Um, and then 'cause we did the renewal, now we'll do the renewal again.

19:06

And, um, they gave everyone time to budget so

19:10

that they would be have it and budget for follow on, uh, follow on years.

19:15

So, but the problem also is the IEB membership

19:18

costs is going up. - Oh, with Oh, the membership costs.

19:22

- Yeah. They changed. They're changing how they calculate membership.

19:26

Oh, membership cost. - That's what a lot of people, a lot

19:31

of the smaller platforms we're objecting to was, you know,

19:34

just the onerous cost. - Well, the, the membership cost is still a minimum as

19:39

of like 11 grand a year is the minimum, I think.

19:43

And then it goes up based upon your revenue. Yeah.

19:46

Um, but if there, but if there does start to be fallout if all of a sudden

19:52

companies are not starting to renew, which we'll see again,

19:56

I'm assuming all of them will based on kind

19:59

of the feel I had from, but originally there was only supposed

20:05

to be a renewal done on major revisions,

20:08

not decimals of revision. - Right. - And then they basically, they come back

20:13

and said, Hey, you're gonna have to renew every year. But it is an ones process no matter what.

20:19

It's, you know, it's probably 40 to 60. Yeah. Staff time.

20:23

Yeah. Staff time. It's huge. - And then resources within the, the company

20:27

beyond just the cash payments. Yeah. Um, and then I saw this post in pod news about the,

20:34

the OP three project, the open podcast analytics project.

20:38

I know that that's, that's that,

20:41

that's a little different than this, but I do know that they started out

20:45

being a potential option. Um,

20:49

- But there's no certification with that. And they're not gonna be IEB certified.

20:54

- Yeah. Right. It, and it's a little bit, it's the open podcast prefix project.

21:00

Yeah. What it is now. That's not how they started.

21:03

- It's been open. Yeah. They started as a, as an open project.

21:07

Now it's just because it's getting more expensive,

21:09

more people are using it. They need, I'm assuming it's a

21:12

- Prefix - Project. Yeah. It's a prefix project. It's always been prefixed.

21:16

- Well, I didn't thi I didn't think it was always,

21:19

I thought it was a, a, a potential replacement to the IAB.

21:22

- Well, they want, some people want it to be,

21:25

because in a pro, and here's why. It will never be, it's open. The stats are completely open.

21:30

You can see everybody's stats is using it.

21:33

Nothing is private. That's why it's open.

21:37

So anyone that's using it, what is that problem? Well, if, if you don't, if you don't want your

21:41

stats seen, it's a problem. - Well, so when you say your stats seen, um,

21:48

- It's all the stats, what - Does that - Really mean?

21:50

Means it's public, meaning anyone that's using OP three,

21:52

I can go and look at their, their stats. - Stats of what - Their podcast,

21:58

- Of all their podcasters. - I can look anyone that's using OP three,

22:03

I can look at their stats. Episode stats, program stats. It's open. Nothing is hidden.

22:12

- Okay. Okay. - So if you use, if you use the OP three,

22:17

your stats are open, your stats are public for everyone to see. I thought

22:22

- The code is open, but - The stats are open.

22:26

- Mm. Okay. Why would open to public say

22:34

- Everybody? - Okay. But is there a, an interface to be able to go see

22:39

- What the stat stats are? I don't, I don't use it. So I don't, I don't know.

22:43

- Hmm. - But it's open. I would be surprised at that. Yeah.

22:45

It's open. It's, it's a, it's, everyone's stats are

22:49

publicly, that's what they, it's all about transparency.

22:55

- Yeah. It's not about transparency of the,

22:58

of the algorithm being - Used.

23:00

Well, maybe, maybe that's - To the content creators. - It's an rob Go look it up yourself.

23:05

I don't, I can't talk to it. No, I'm, yeah. But it, I believe the, I believe the code's open,

23:10

and I believe the stats are open. - It could be open to sharing with other

23:17

- Platforms. No, it's, - I don't know that consumers can get

23:20

- Access to. I believe so. I believe it's all, all available.

23:26

- Hmm. Wow. That's, that's, that's interesting.

23:31

So, okay. Um, yeah. All right.

23:39

So what you're saying is that the industry doesn't have any,

23:43

any place else to go other than IAB

23:47

for a certification.

23:49

- It's the only recognized. It's, it's gonna be the only thing that's gonna be Right.

23:55

You know, op three's not gonna be recognized

23:59

by advertisers. And most of the people that use OP three are not worried

24:02

about advertisers. - Yeah. I saw that the, was it Transistor

24:08

was on board with it? - Transistor, podium, nic, flight Path and Pod news.

24:15

- Yeah. - Uh, they basically have supported it.

24:18

They basically are, are contributing

24:22

of some of some sort. - Yeah. I also saw that, um, Tesla is now going to have, uh,

24:30

the Apple Podcast app by default in its, uh,

24:33

app store on the car. - Well, that's good - Because it,

24:39

prior it had only had, uh, Spotify app in it.

24:43

Hmm. So,

24:47

and it said, it mentioned there that the Tesla cars were gonna gonna support CarPlay.

24:52

I was, I was a little surprised at that.

24:54

But it's gonna be interesting to see what that looks like.

24:58

It's coming out in the holiday update for all Tesla car owners. And

25:04

- If I'm wrong on stats being publicly available,

25:07

someone correct me, but I'm 99% sure if that's the case.

25:12

- Okay. - Someone will weigh in here if I'm wrong, uh,

25:16

later <laugh>. - Yeah. - But that was my understanding is that the

25:22

everything is, is basically publicly,

25:24

you can see other shows stat. - Oh, okay.

25:29

Well, I guess there is precedent for

25:32

that kind of kind of stuff. I mean, I mean, there's,

25:35

there's always been a certain amount of, um,

25:39

content platforms that display, you know, the number

25:43

of views or downloads or something like that. I know it was something that speaker used to do.

25:48

Um, they used to display publicly all of the stat

25:52

of every episode publicly on their, on their website.

25:55

Yeah. Actually I had them make it optional.

25:58

Um, back, back when I was working for them.

26:01

- It's, uh, ALS also Curious pod track release.

26:05

Its ranker total global downloads

26:07

for top 20 publisher down 15% month on month.

26:10

And I'm gonna, I'm just gonna be real blunt.

26:14

- Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, - We didn't see a drop at blueberry.

26:19

- Oh. With the update to 17. Yeah. iOS. Yeah.

26:23

- And, and I said it before in a previous show, but everyone's waning whining about their drop.

26:30

And I'm like, not a, not a complaint over here.

26:34

And it just tells you that maybe some of these

26:40

stat systems need to, uh, uh, analyze a little deeper.

26:47

Maybe they need to start, uh, you know,

26:51

qualifying Well, let's, - Let's call it what it is.

26:55

The IAB metrics standard is not really a standard.

26:59

- It's a standard. It's a minimum. It's a, well, it, it, it's

27:02

- A recommendation and not everybody adheres to

27:04

- A hundred percent. Well, if you're certified, you have followed the guidelines, the

27:08

- General guidelines. But - There's, well, there's some slack in there.

27:11

There's some, there's some pretty strict rules in there.

27:15

- Yeah. But there's Slack. Right. - But it's the minimum, minimum requirement.

27:19

- There's the two hour rule and there's the 24 hour

27:22

- Rule. Yeah. No, no. The 24 hour depends on the 24

27:25

hour rule is the standard. There is no two hour standard.

27:28

The 24 hour rule is the standard. Okay.

27:34

- I thought that there was some variability there. No, that's in the standard,

27:37

because not everybody would, would agree to a hard and fast strict

27:40

- If you're not 24 hours. That's why Libsyn has two selections.

27:45

They have the IEB standard 24 hour,

27:48

and then they have the other selection that is not the IB standard.

27:52

- I was, I was very much against that,

27:55

that decision when I was at Libson, um, of giving

27:58

that toggle, - That toggle.

28:01

'cause the, when you flip it the other way, the numbers go up.

28:05

- Yeah. And it, you know, what's the point?

28:08

I mean, the, the, the whole point of the IEB metric standard was to get everybody on the same

28:12

- Page. Right. And, and if you are an IEB,

28:15

if you do present IEB certified standards,

28:19

you're on the 24 hour plan. Right. And that, and,

28:23

but that's the minimum qualification again. And is there

28:28

- Others that are going beyond 24 hours? - That's what we, well, there is a higher level

28:34

of qualification of a download. You can look deeper.

28:38

- Well, there's also the, the, the black list and the white list.

28:42

That is actually probably the biggest variable - Here.

28:45

Yeah. It's mostly the, the,

28:49

the list that makes the most impact is the deny list.

28:55

- Right? That's the black list. - Yeah. Yeah. That's the, - Or, or,

28:58

or in this, the proper way to say it probably is the block list <laugh>.

29:03

- Yeah. What's whatever, whatever the proper word is.

29:07

I think there was another word that was used too that was deemed, uh, inappropriate.

29:11

But yeah, the block list, - It's basically a list.

29:15

Let, let's be frank about, it's basically a list of bots

29:17

and platforms that have ips

29:22

or what, whatever that are, that are not actually listeners.

29:26

- I pay $12,000 a year to be updated every 24 hours

29:32

of that list of lists of servers, bots,

29:36

- 12,000 a year to - 12,000 a year for that list.

29:40

But that's, that's in a, that's the base. That's the base.

29:44

And then we have more. - Oh, that's a lot to pay for that.

29:49

- Yeah. It is a lot to pay for that. But it's, otherwise it's, it's, uh,

29:55

you'll spend every day whack-a-mole.

29:59

- Yeah. - So. - Well, and that maybe explains Yeah.

30:04

That probably doesn't explain the Apple difference.

30:07

- No, no, no, - No. Is the Apple difference more to do

30:10

with how the Apple,

30:12

- It was, how they were, does - Apple works with automated downloads?

30:17

- Yes. And the counting of those, - Right.

30:22

Does, does your platform or some of the other platforms have a, a like a way

30:28

of managing that that's different than what Apple's doing?

30:32

Like a more - No, we see, we see those ex we saw those extra downloads

30:38

before, but we didn't qualify them and count them.

30:45

Right. That's why we didn't see a drop, because we already knew they were duplicates.

30:53

We already knew it was the same ip, same user agent.

30:58

We, we knew It's not rocket

31:02

science. Yeah. It's really not.

31:05

- Yeah. - So, yeah.

31:09

- I was, yeah, I was a little bit surprised to see that

31:13

a couple of really major podcasts, like the Heavyweight show, which was part

31:19

of the New York Times best podcast of 2023, um,

31:23

- Getting canceled. You just, you have to ask on Spotify, it was being what? Canceled,

31:28

- Canceled by Spotify. - Oh, well, - And,

31:31

and another show, a Pulitzer Prize winning podcast called

31:34

Stolen is also getting

31:37

- Let go. Does it, does it mean it's being monetized?

31:41

- Well, I think what, what this is really doing is

31:44

their cancellation. But each of these shows are able to move to another, oh,

31:49

another platform. If they can get a deal with some other platform is,

31:55

I think this is kind of being miscommunicated.

31:57

Oh. I think this is really exclusive deals

32:00

that are getting cut off. Right. - Yeah. - So, so these shows are going back to the,

32:06

to kind of, kind of competing at the what,

32:11

where they probably should have been all along, which is kind of, you know, freely available

32:15

and not locked down to one platform.

32:18

- And what I found interesting was Red Circle has a new

32:21

launch, a new vetting feature, allowing advertisers

32:24

and podcasters on the platform of questionnaire

32:27

to discover which show is the right fit.

32:31

That shows me that they've been suitability - And - No, it makes me think

32:35

that they've been a little bit too loosey goosey

32:38

and they weren't matching real well to begin with.

32:41

So that's, yeah. But that's what I read into that. I might be wrong.

32:45

- Yeah. But that's also kind of the same thought process

32:48

that the brand suitability and brand safety system.

32:51

- Well, well, what is the question? The questionnaire could be,

32:54

what do you think of our product? Have you used our

32:58

- What's your Yeah. Is this talking about, um, advertisers?

33:01

- Yeah. Advertisers are gonna send podcasters a

33:04

questionnaire so they can, they

33:08

apparently the advertisers can make up their own questionnaire and then the podcasters respond to it.

33:13

And based upon those responses, they determine which show is the best bit.

33:18

May not be anything to do with brand suitability. It may be, do you like our product?

33:22

- Well, that's the ideology behind it though, right? Eh, - You know, it's fit.

33:25

- Right. - It's fit, it's fit around. - Yeah. Content. Yeah.

33:29

So, so it, it may be a way that Ri Circle is

33:33

basically able to avoid doing the brands

33:37

- <crosstalk>. Uh, maybe not. I think they're doing it. I think what it is is basically, oh, you think so? Yeah.

33:41

I think basically what it is, is the advertiser.

33:44

'cause you know, what we've always did is when an advertiser

33:47

comes in, you know, I always have a list of shows.

33:50

I'm like, if you have any reservations about this advertiser, do not accept this deal.

33:56

If you cannot endorse, if you cannot get behind,

33:58

if you cannot be enthusiastic, don't take the deal. If this

34:03

- Doesn't. Well, that's always been the case where - Well, - Podcasters have, have been able

34:07

to turn down ad deals. - Well, I don't know if

34:10

that's the case over at Red Circle. Well, - Programmatic has basically, you know, not allow that

34:16

- As much. Right, right, right. Well, again, we're not talking about,

34:19

we're talking about host spread. Right. Yeah, I'm sure. So

34:25

- Yeah. I just wonder, I mean, how's your programmatic business going right

34:29

- Now? It's growing fantastic. It's going okay. Yep.

34:33

Each month it's growing. Okay.

34:35

And, uh, I've, uh, I might

34:40

hit my KPI by the end of the month. I was, I had a KPI by the end of 2023. It's close.

34:48

And I was pretty aggressive, so it,

34:51

I might hit the KPII might be a few hundred dollars under

34:54

the KPI amount, I'll call that a win if I, you know,

34:59

if I'm within a couple hundred bucks. - Yeah. - So it's not gonna be,

35:04

I'm not gonna be under a thousand, and I'm not gonna be over a thousand.

35:08

I'm gonna be right in the <laugh>. Right. Really close.

35:11

But it's growing every month, so, - Okay.

35:15

- Matter of fact, I was kinda shocked the other day when I

35:17

looked at the numbers, how, how it's done. So, yeah.

35:23

- Yeah. That's good. I saw that road acquired Mackey, I thought was an

35:28

- Interesting, oh, they did - Acquisition. Wow.

35:31

- That's a road acquired Mackey.

35:33

I thought that'd been the other way around. - You would've thought, thought. Wow.

35:38

The truth of the matter is, is Ro uh,

35:41

road is being a lot more innovative - Yeah.

35:44

- With their technology than Mackey. Mackey's a little old school. Yeah, it is.

35:47

- They're - Actually, actually based up in

35:49

the, the Seattle area. Wow. - That, that's a, that's, that's big. I missed that one.

35:56

- Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, - Huh. - Yeah. So, so I'm not sure what that means for Mackey, if

36:02

that just becomes a derivative brand under the road,

36:05

or how that AC acquisition really helps erode.

36:09

I'm not really clear on, or is it just taking out a competitor? I don't

36:13

- Know. I don't know. You know, I've got Mackey here at, here at the house,

36:18

- So Yeah. Or taking the, the road technology

36:21

and integrating it into the Mackey mixers.

36:23

Yeah. Um, that would be a strategic move.

36:27

That would make a lot of sense. I just wonder though, Todd, as we think about the future

36:32

of this, um, you know, as I've been kind of thinking about

36:36

and working with these more advanced ai, uh,

36:40

driven audio optimization platforms, um,

36:44

that we're gonna see that technology get in integrated into all these mixers and,

36:49

and recording platforms. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> natively, um, versus the current, like

36:55

with Road has, like their compressor software and

36:58

- All that kind of stuff that's, - That are fancy, eh, I mean, you have to

37:02

- Get in and <crosstalk> not unless the de device, not

37:04

unless the device is connected to the internet.

37:08

You're gonna have to, and, and they're gonna have to be, become much more

37:12

powerful processor wise. - I think what, what you could do though, is

37:18

it could be updated over a, over there update.

37:22

- Sure. Well, again, when you're talking ai,

37:26

you are not really talking ai. What you're talking about is some

37:29

programming that does certain stuff. AI is a, there's two different processes there.

37:34

Let's not get 'em confused. There's a lot of stuff that happens today that

37:39

is like an AI type process, but it's, yeah.

37:42

It's just some code. It's been written to do a certain thing. Right.

37:46

Um, I, I don't know, - Live but live optimization of audio.

37:51

Yeah. - We'll - See. Reduction.

37:54

It's, it's not entirely here yet, Todd, but it's coming.

37:57

- We'll, see, - I I'm talking to companies right now

38:01

that are actually working on - That.

38:03

But it's web-based. It's not gonna be in a, it's not gonna be in a road.

38:06

There's no way it can be in a road. Not until the road gets processor wise much more advanced.

38:13

- Right. Um, well, I mean, you look at a road there duo

38:17

and those, I mean, that is, that is becoming very intense on the software side.

38:22

- Yeah. But I bet it's only running off of something maybe equivalent

38:25

to a raspberry pie or something like that. It's probably not that big of a processor.

38:29

You might be surprised. Because again, it's code

38:34

- That could be what it is today, Todd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I'm saying is

38:37

that this technology will increasingly get integrated.

38:41

'cause what that'll do is that'll simplify the use of these tools.

38:45

Right? I mean, you and I both have set up road caster pros

38:49

and they are not easy to set up. I mean, they are, they are a challenge to set up properly,

38:56

um, because there's so many tweaks and adjustments and ups

39:00

and downs and stroller bars and turning off and on and all this

39:04

- Kind stuff. But Rob, I've had a whole rack of stuff here that I've had

39:07

to twist knobs and set stuff for years. So it's, to me, that's nothing new. But

39:11

- Where's it going, Todd? Is what I'm talking about. Oh, yeah, - Yeah, - Yeah.

39:13

Um, is simplicity, AI is going to take over a lot of this stuff. It's not,

39:18

- Yeah. We'll see, - I think the days of us scrolling up

39:21

and down on a mixer are numbered.

39:24

Um, and yeah. Uh, - We'll see. That's, that's

39:29

- Why - That is, - Why would it not?

39:32

- But again, that's not necessarily ai that is just, well,

39:36

- Okay. I mean, AI could have a component to it.

39:39

Um, but nonetheless, the technology is progressing to,

39:44

- They already have, they already have mixers that will ride.

39:47

If you get into expensive mixers today that ride the levels

39:52

by themselves, you don't even have to touch the, the faders.

39:55

The faders move by themselves. - Right. So if you spend, you know,

40:03

$200,000 on a, on that kind of mixer, right?

40:06

Yeah. But most people don't have access to,

40:08

- And that's usually tied to some midi device in

40:10

some computer and - Right.

40:13

- Yeah. - But most everyday podcasters don't have access to

40:17

- That. No, not at all - Currently. Um,

40:20

- But time will tell, - But I'm just trying to think out where this is going.

40:23

Right. And, and, you know, even the, the road duo is,

40:28

is an example of what I'm saying is

40:30

that they're getting smaller, more compact

40:32

and much more powerful, but they're also, unfortunately getting a little bit harder

40:38

to configure because of the complexity of them

40:41

- In, in the end, if you just set the microphone

40:43

and you set the level and don't set any of the other features, you're still good

40:47

to go. You know, that's when you,

40:49

- What's what's the point of buying a tool like

40:52

that if you're not utilizing, - Well, I bet you a lot of, I, I would, I would bet you 90%

40:56

of the people that own a road caster set the mic,

40:59

set the fader, and don't do anything else. You and I like to tweak. I, I guarantee you,

41:04

most people don't touch any of those other features.

41:07

They'll look at 'em and get scared of - Them.

41:10

Not like I had to tweak it to get decent audio quality out of it.

41:13

Well, I would say that the first two months

41:16

that I had this thing, I didn't feel like I had it set.

41:19

Right. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because what, what, what what I was hearing through my headphones

41:25

wasn't what was going out. - Well, that's a problem. And,

41:28

- And that's, and it's difficult to configure something if you,

41:32

if you're not hearing what it's doing, - It give you whatever's process is what you should hear.

41:38

- You would think. Yeah, that's, and that probably does most of the time.

41:43

Right. But there were times when I was doing this show,

41:48

and the configurations were all great,

41:50

but what was going out sounded like crap.

41:53

- So I think too is what happens.

41:58

And this is something that just because I've been around for such a long time, I record

42:04

right on the device, and then I listen to that recording,

42:07

I go back and Yeah. Record. - But if you're doing stuff live, Todd, it's, it's,

42:10

- But, but still, if you, if in order

42:12

to get the settings right, to get the settings right in your initial testing,

42:17

you should be, what I'll be is like, okay,

42:19

I am now touching the fader, moving it up to three,

42:23

and now I am, uh, touching the compressor.

42:25

I've moved it to 25%. Well, how does it sound?

42:28

I've moved it. I keep talking and make the changes actively.

42:32

And I listen to that and I go back. I'm like, okay, 25% was better than 10.

42:36

Let me go to 25 and you know, I'll spend a couple hours.

42:40

I bet you the average podcaster doesn't spend a couple

42:43

of hours setting up their mixer. No. - And that's kind of, I mean,

42:48

you just stated what my point is too, - But the thing is, this is what

42:51

- If the software is smart enough to but to set those

42:55

- Settings. But the problem is for you, the problem is it can't because every voice is different.

42:59

- You I know, but the, but the software see that,

43:02

that's what's changing about AI technology is that

43:04

- I don't, I don't think it'll ever, that's intelligent. Uh, okay. You know, I don't know. I don't think so.

43:11

Because, because it's your voice and my voice are different.

43:15

I guarantee you that your mixer settings are different

43:17

than my mixer settings. - Yeah. Because there's so many settings in here.

43:21

There's no way they'd be the same. - No, but you've tweaked it over time to get it

43:25

to sound the way you want it to sound. - Yeah. But that may not be the best setting.

43:32

- Here's the funny part. I haven't, I don't run on a road in the show I've run on, I haven't had

43:37

to touch my, except for the scratchy fader.

43:41

I haven't had to touch my rack settings since 2019.

43:45

There's no kids in here touching the knobs.

43:49

The environment's the same. I've set this my rack

43:52

and it hasn't changed in, in three years. Um,

43:56

- But you also run a compressor - Too, right?

43:59

I do run a compressor. So, - So that has to be adjusted.

44:02

- Not any, not because I, it doesn't,

44:04

I'm haven't touched it in three years because I set it once.

44:07

Got it. Right. The studio now is soundproof.

44:10

- You've had to do it with, with my audio.

44:13

- Well, I've had to turn your audio up

44:17

- And then at times I've had to turn it down here. Right.

44:19

- Because - I was booming out to you. - But it, and part of that is, is because of the Mac.

44:23

I think the weaknesses is the, when it comes in on the Mac.

44:27

- Well, Todd, I also think that we are geeks here

44:29

and we're okay with playing with this stuff. <laugh>. I think a lot of the newer people,

44:34

the younger people coming into the space, they don't have

44:37

that interest in tweaking with technology for hours and

44:41

- Days at a time getting frustrated. I think, I think most of the younger people are more

44:45

technical than you and me should probably, they should probably understand this better

44:48

than you and I did. I can't imagine them not.

44:53

- Yeah. - I don't know. I might be wrong.

44:57

- I think you like to be a contrarian. - No, I, I, you know, my kid,

45:02

someone showed me something the other day on my phone

45:04

that I did not know existed on the Android.

45:07

I have, I didn't know you could do this. Yeah.

45:11

And make it take a picture. I hadn't very clue.

45:14

I was trying to take a selfie and someone said, just use your hand.

45:16

I'm like, what? Yeah, do like that.

45:19

And I'm like, I did that. And it took a picture. I'm like, oh my God.

45:23

- Well, all of us have li limited attention span. Right?

45:26

<laugh>. So there's no way we can pick up every little

45:30

option and every little device that we have

45:33

unless we're constantly monitoring. Well, - It's one of those things where now I gotta subscribe

45:37

to an Android show to learn about all these tricks. I don't know.

45:41

- Yeah. Well that's <laugh>, that's,

45:43

that's the blessing and the curse. So, - So Rob, why don't you start a road caster show

45:47

and talk about how to set up the road caster. There you go.

45:50

- I don't have an interest in doing that, <laugh>. - It's too, it's too specific.

45:54

There's a whole bunch of stuff on YouTube. Don't worry.

45:56

Some other, some other geek has done it.

45:58

- Yeah, plenty actually. Yeah.

46:01

And people probably call 'em podcasts too, - Todd.

46:04

No, probably. Yeah. You gotta stop that.

46:08

You need to, you need, we need to have a, a jar here in,

46:13

you need a jar on your side. And I need a jar on my side.

46:16

Anytime you associate the word podcast with YouTube,

46:19

you need to put 20 bucks in it. And at the end of the year, we'll trade jars

46:23

and see who has the most money. - Well, Todd, I think we have to be practical about it too.

46:29

There is a podcast section in YouTube.

46:32

- Well, quit calling it that. What? But reminding people

46:37

- Well, okay, - So I think next week on the 13th, when Tom Webster

46:42

and team have their video thing review,

46:47

I think there's gonna be some good information that comes out of that.

46:50

- Right. And they're gonna confirm what I'm saying. - I think they're gonna confirm that top shows,

46:55

the top shows get

46:59

views, and that's it.

47:06

- I don't know. That's a pretty generalization, Todd. Well,

47:09

- I can guarantee - It's all about scale

47:11

and perspective, right? - It's about, no, it's what, what,

47:14

what do podcasters care about? - What's - They care about? How, what's

47:18

- Your definition of a big show, Todd? - A big show would be at least, at least

47:26

if you're gonna be on YouTube, it'd be a big, big show.

47:29

Oh, okay. I'll, I'll be simple. More than a thousand views per episode.

47:35

That would be a big show on YouTube. Big podcast On YouTube.

47:42

- Yeah. I do episodes on YouTube all the time that get a thousand views.

47:45

- You're rare. I don't know.

47:48

This show never gets a thousand on mine. A lot shows that get a lot more than, uh, 60,

47:51

70 on this, on this channel. That's it.

47:55

- Yeah. I mean, this show tends to, to

47:59

to struggle a little bit on, on YouTube. - I agree. Yeah. Because it's 90 minutes.

48:03

- Quite sure why - It's not formatted for YouTube.

48:08

- Well, - It's not, it it doesn't have a YouTube format.

48:15

We're not, and we're also old. We're old.

48:20

We're not young and hip. - Well, one thing that would be more, more compatible

48:25

with YouTube is if we didn't do this side

48:28

by side video thing. Um, I think, I think the shows that I see that are big

48:34

and successful, they flip back and forth between who's talking?

48:37

- Well, I can do that too. I can, I I did that for years.

48:40

You didn't like it? - What do you mean? I didn't - Like it. You didn't like it

48:44

when I flipped back and forth. I did that for years where we flipped from you to me.

48:48

I can do that right now. So, hang on. I'm gonna put me up front, or I am here,

48:52

and then I'm gonna put you over here.

48:55

All right. So ready to go? Ready. Rock and roll. We can flip back and forth. Okay. Yeah. Don't sweat

49:02

- <laugh>. Well, okay. So that doesn't happen

49:05

automatically in the platform.

49:08

I mean, you have to actually click a button. Yeah, - I gotta click a button.

49:11

So do they, - Okay.

49:14

- When they're running their show, they have someone that's running a switch.

49:19

- Well, there's nothing to keep the platforms from enabling who's ever

49:22

talking to flip it. 'cause I know Zoom does that, right? Um,

49:26

- Well, we're not using Zoom. - I know we're, well actually we are using Zoom.

49:32

- Yeah, but you're on Zoom on a single channel

49:35

and I'm, I'm No, but - You're not using Zoom.

49:37

- No, because you're - Using your TriCaster. - Right. So we can, so

49:41

- Is Yeah, that's actually a good, good topic.

49:44

I was just curious, is TriCaster still updating on

49:47

their, their tools? Are you getting patch updates for your

49:50

- TriCaster? Yeah, all the time. Yeah. - If people that are watching this don't know

49:53

what a TriCaster is, it's, it's basically like a studio in a box.

49:57

Right? So it'd be like a streamy yard that you have on a little computer on your desk

50:02

of sorts. Right. - And I stop putting up lower thirds.

50:06

I can put up lower thirds, I can put up the little pifer in the side if I want.

50:10

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, all I gotta do is make the change here.

50:12

Let me go over and, uh, grab the, the right graphic.

50:16

All right. We get that. We'll put that up there. Well, I've always

50:19

- Wonder, Todd, because you have like a, I mean,

50:22

I think when you bought that it was like a $50,000. Uh,

50:25

- No, because I see this is the problem.

50:28

Now I have to remember to switch. Um, I, uh, I, I started out with a used unit

50:35

and then they had this incredible upgrade path

50:38

where you went from one model to the next.

50:41

So I went from a, their base model to a 8 65

50:46

or what is, so I basically paid about half of

50:50

what a retail unit cost. Oh. And then I got a trade-in value.

50:55

So I've done two or three trade-ins.

50:58

So the last trade-in was, yeah, it was expensive,

51:01

but I'll never do it again. When this thing dies, then I'll switch to something else.

51:08

I'm done buying their hardware. - So when you say that you're gonna switch

51:12

to something else, would it be a platform

51:15

that would be more kind of software based cloud-based?

51:19

- Probably. But the challenge is, is I'm, I have to have something that supports NDI throughout.

51:23

'cause I'm an, I, I have an NDI studio.

51:25

I don't know if dreamyard supports NDI or not,

51:28

but Wirecast does. And some of the other software based stuff does support NDI.

51:34

So when you're seeing me right now, that's not coming over

51:38

that that image is being sent via a land cable,

51:43

not an SDI cable - Or a, or an HDM - Or HDMI.

51:51

Right? It's it's over a land cable, right?

51:54

- Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm doing here is HDMI.

51:57

So I go from my Sony camcorder to, to a,

52:02

like a translator that basically takes that signal

52:05

and converts it into a digital signal. Um, right. And,

52:08

and then I can plug it into a computer. It's all,

52:11

- And, and the thing that you - I to USB is

52:14

- What it's, and the thing you don't see here, and I probably don't have this camera white balance,

52:18

is I can actually do a different view. So I can, because

52:22

- You have like two or three different - Cameras.

52:24

Yeah, I have two. And they're not all balanced right now. So you can see they're off.

52:28

So my red shirt changes colors on camera three. So

52:32

- Do you ever really use all those

52:34

- Cameras? I do from time to time. And, you know, when I do, then I have to go in

52:37

and, you know, white balance the cameras and make sure the color matches so

52:41

that when I go from camera three and I'm showing that to this, it doesn't, you know,

52:46

it doesn't hitch in the face so, so much. - Yeah. Are they all different brands of cameras

52:51

- Or? No, two of 'em are the same brand. The third one is not.

52:53

So that's part of the problem that this is the third brand camera.

52:56

So, okay. This is the, these two are pretty close.

53:01

- Do you ever do, um, shows in your other studio that you have right next

53:04

- To you? Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do, uh, demos. I do blueberry stuff.

53:08

Uh, don't do too much stuff in the green room though.

53:12

I've used the green screen a couple of times. So that's probably the most underutilized.

53:17

- Yeah. That's your third studio, right? Yeah. - The, the demo studio, other side. The demo studio.

53:21

I can actually use, um, a iPad

53:27

to switch the camera. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I just set the iPad aside

53:31

and I get the same functions here.

53:33

And I could actually bring in, let's see here.

53:38

Like I can bring in, I've got pod news loaded up in email.

53:41

I could bring that up or whatever screen I wanted to bring up.

53:45

- Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. - So,

53:50

but again, if you're in a same room

53:53

and you're doing multi, I'm probably making people dizzy

53:56

here, switching back and forth. Um, if I'm doing, if they're in the same room

54:01

and they're in a table, then they've got someone

54:04

that is sitting there mashing the button switching

54:08

between people, right?

54:10

Yeah. That's

54:13

what happens on, on twit.

54:16

They have someone manually, sometimes Leo does the switching.

54:20

- Yeah. And I see even on, on YouTube,

54:23

people are sending up multi-camera shoots

54:26

and they, they have like two couches or something like that.

54:30

And there's a camera that captures both of them together.

54:33

Right. Kind of facing each other. And then there's a camera facing one

54:37

person and a camera facing. So there's actually a, a lot

54:39

of the shows are doing three camera shoots. Well, - You, even with the TriCaster,

54:43

and I just don't use it, is I can use, if it's,

54:47

if I have enough focal depth, I can take this camera

54:51

and focus it over here. So it only takes Right. A block.

54:55

So I can use the same camera to do three shots,

54:58

or actually up to six shots per camera.

55:01

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, depending on how much, you know,

55:06

how far back the camera is from the, from the object.

55:10

- Right. But that's how it's, you know, some of these,

55:15

uh, YouTube creators are creating more like a television experience.

55:19

Is that they're using multi-camera shoots.

55:22

- Well, they're, or they have - A guy that's that's, that's sitting there with one

55:26

or two cameras and they're flipping back and forward.

55:29

- Well, they're actually, most of 'em are using one camera

55:32

with the ability to focus the switch.

55:34

Yeah. To focus on the, and they, all they do is crop.

55:39

So it's just a crop part of the original image.

55:42

And we do that when we go to cs. - Yeah. And I've been able to do that with my 360 degree,

55:48

um, camera that I have too.

55:50

Or I can just set it between us and it'll capture, it's got two camera

55:54

lenses, one on each side of the - Camera.

55:56

Oh, and one on each side. - Yeah. And then I can, I can, in the software,

56:00

I can flip back and forth between the speakers.

56:02

- Yeah. There's no, there. If, if I had the camera could sit back further,

56:06

there would be no reason to have three cameras in here.

56:11

And actually when I, when I, I, I was, I got constrained.

56:15

What really happened to me here. Say again?

56:17

I didn't flip it. I got constrained because there's a wall that is literally from

56:23

where my finger is pointed right there about three

56:26

and a half feet away. - Mm-Hmm. - <affirmative>. So there was only

56:30

so far I could go back with the cameras.

56:34

Um, and if, you know, and it was basically

56:37

because the way this, I, you know, I

56:39

basically moved into a old dentist's office,

56:43

so I really couldn't pop, knock that wall out, um,

56:48

and move the cameras back further.

56:51

- Oh, I see what you're saying. - Sure. Yeah. Because that's part of it too. You get some

56:55

- More depth of their - More depth. Yeah. - Yeah. 'cause I see some of the creators have a view

57:01

of their, their desk Right. As well as their hands. So they can be much more kind of

57:07

gesturing as well. I mean, my setup here, I I just have a gigantic screen

57:13

that's in front of me that my, I've got a teleprompter

57:15

that's sitting on top of the screen. It's because my screen's so big that it kind

57:20

of elevates the, the camera up.

57:22

And I kind of have to sit up with my chair pretty high to get up in the air.

57:26

- Yeah. So what happens here is I've got the smallest

57:28

monitor I could directly in front of me.

57:31

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So here's the camera lens, right there is the monitor top.

57:36

So, and that's another issue too, is if I move the camera back, then all you see is the back

57:42

of the, the monitor. Right? So the,

57:45

so the goal would be is if you're gonna do this differently,

57:48

and because of the way my shows are and I need to be able to see the articles from my show.

57:52

Yeah. Is, that's - The challenge, - Is then I would have

57:56

to have the camera back further. Then I would have to have a bigger screen back further

58:01

so I would know what I'm talking about. And in this case, it's not, it's a little bit obvious

58:06

that I'm looking down, but it's not super obvious.

58:10

So what I do with the browser is I minimize it, so it's

58:12

as close to the top of the screen as possible.

58:15

And then I purposely roll the, the,

58:19

the article up so that my eyes don't go all the way

58:22

to the bottom of the screen and it looks like I'm looking down.

58:26

- Yeah. - And again, you can kind of see it a little bit like right now.

58:30

Can you tell, I'm looking at the top of the, the top

58:32

of the screen is there, so I'm looking here at the top

58:35

of the screen here. I'm looking at the camera. Right.

58:38

So just, you can see there's a little bit of, uh, eye shift.

58:42

- Yeah. I have the same thing too. I looked down just a little bit

58:45

below my camera at the cu Oh. But I can also, I, I haven't properly configured my,

58:51

uh, teleprompter yet. So to kind of go up so my eyes would be up. Well,

58:56

- I have a big monitor behind the camera. So I look at you, you are directly above the lens.

59:03

Um, or if I'm in this view, you're a little bit sideways.

59:08

- Yeah. - It used to be, I'd have to look at you like this.

59:12

That's how I had to use to look at you before.

59:15

- Yeah. - And for those of you listening, we're like, okay.

59:21

- Well, so I think that the topic here is interesting

59:24

because I think, um, as we think about shows

59:27

that wanna be successful on YouTube

59:29

and as an audio podcast, I, I, I think that's

59:32

where the evolution that I see moving. So this kind of side by side thing,

59:37

and I'm doing it too, so it's, you know, with my other show

59:40

that I'm doing and, and things like that too.

59:43

But that whole flipping back and forth whole screen,

59:47

it presents a better experience on the television.

59:50

- Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. - Right. Um, because the, the image is more full screen,

59:55

and that's kind of what, you know, the major media companies do with this stuff too.

1:00:01

And I see a lot of the, the,

1:00:03

the bigger shows are flipping back and forth.

1:00:06

- So, so in a perfect world, what I would do, and again, I would take, see, we can see you right now.

1:00:12

Right? I moved you back. Right. Right. Now what I would do is this. Yeah.

1:00:21

- It's kind of dark, isn't it? Back up on that screen.

1:00:30

- I would hide you and I can still see you.

1:00:35

So I would show this, even though I've got you stashed,

1:00:39

I can still see you on your screen. - Got it. Yeah.

1:00:47

There's all sorts of ways to do this kind of stuff.

1:00:50

So did you see this, uh, this article about, um,

1:00:56

there's a copyright enforcement company is sending demand

1:01:00

for money to podcast directories for

1:01:04

reproducing thumbnail images from SS

1:01:07

feeds. Did you hear about that? Yeah, - I, I saw that.

1:01:09

And, you know, that was just some,

1:01:12

you know, it's a little weird. Well, what it is, is someone trying to extort some money and

1:01:20

- Yeah. It's like that patent troll back in the back five

1:01:24

or six, seven years ago. - And, you know, James did the right thing

1:01:29

by having the lawyer send the message, and of course they went away.

1:01:33

Yeah. And, um, if someone sends us that, we'll do the same thing, you know,

1:01:40

but we've got a lawyer on staff, so we're a little different.

1:01:44

But this is where, this is where a podcaster needs

1:01:47

to be careful on their album art. They need to make sure that their album art is not

1:01:51

infringing any copyright. - Right. - That it's original. You

1:01:55

- Can't be using the logos from, from brands out there.

1:01:59

- No. - Right. And that's the, that's really the, the risk area.

1:02:04

So if you put a logo, let's say you, you know,

1:02:09

you're creating a podcast about Tesla or whatever,

1:02:13

or some other company forward, or Microsoft, whatever,

1:02:17

and you use the Microsoft logo on your cover art.

1:02:20

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> you are at risk of, um,

1:02:23

violating trademark and copyright and things like that. So,

1:02:29

- And that's where you gotta be careful too, with the AI stuff to make sure you're not,

1:02:35

- Well, AI will completely not do anything

1:02:38

with a brand logo. - Well, it'll come close.

1:02:43

- It'll, yeah. So some brands just have text, right? Yeah.

1:02:46

So like, if you look at even a Microsoft, it's just the words in font.

1:02:51

Right? Right. And it could come pretty close to, to that.

1:02:55

So I, you know, I think brands, um, yeah.

1:03:00

Um, I mean, Microsoft has a logo,

1:03:03

but it's more of an icon. Um, - And that's where you gotta be careful when using Fiverr

1:03:08

and some of those other folks, 'cause you know, they, they don't care. They're

1:03:12

- Going to Google and grab images. Right. - Yeah. Be be careful. Yeah. Right.

1:03:16

And it's not that hard to create Avamar today.

1:03:19

So, you know, just Canva, Canva, <laugh>. Yeah.

1:03:23

They do a great job. - Yeah. It takes a little creativity to go in

1:03:29

and use Canva, but I know that they're increasingly at,

1:03:33

- Well, they have - Capabilities in - There.

1:03:35

Well, they have, uh, templates and you just correct.

1:03:38

- You know, - That's a simple, that makes, doesn't, makes it real easy.

1:03:42

And, you know, maybe pay for a couple months of Canva.

1:03:45

And of course, all the graphic artists, a lot

1:03:48

of the graphic artists out there are like, oh, pay me $600.

1:03:51

Well, uh, that, that ship has sailed. I think

1:03:56

- I'm not exactly happy with the, with the Canva user interface,

1:04:01

but that's not the best in the world, I wouldn't

1:04:05

- Think. Well, none of them are perfect. - Yeah. - But I don't know,

1:04:13

I guess, we'll, I guess we'll see. Um, but yeah, I'm someone come trolling, you know,

1:04:19

I I, I'd legitimately got hit on a, well,

1:04:23

what it was is I had paid for royalty fee.

1:04:28

I'd paid for an image off of a site, um,

1:04:33

had the license for the image. And where I got screwed was there was

1:04:39

image within the image. And the image within the image was a Getty Image. Mm-Hmm.

1:04:45

<affirmative> Basically, it was a, it was a picture,

1:04:48

and in the picture had a, um,

1:04:52

uh, picture album. And inside the picture album was a Getty picture.

1:04:57

And I end up, that cost me 300 bucks. 'cause that Getty image in the image within the image

1:05:04

was not licensed. And even though I had licensed the whole image,

1:05:08

someone hit, so I got screwed. I just, I had to pay the bill.

1:05:11

You get one from Getty, you just have to pay. You can't fight them. That was years and years

1:05:18

and years and years ago. And I put the, I put the law down hard on my writers.

1:05:23

I just like say, Hey, this is the, this is

1:05:25

where we're gonna get images from here on out.

1:05:28

You know, here's the account. They all have the login password.

1:05:32

They're royalty free and go over and get 'em there.

1:05:35

Don't be using any art from, uh, any other location.

1:05:41

You know, it's, it was expensive for me.

1:05:43

I couldn't afford it at the time. - Yeah. I saw that. The, the pod track, uh, ranker came out

1:05:49

with some numbers a few days ago, and yeah, we listed the top 20 publishers

1:05:55

are down 15%. I know we mentioned this a little bit earlier in the show.

1:05:59

15% month on month stating due largely to

1:06:04

modified download behavior on iOS 17. So, Mm-Hmm.

1:06:09

- <affirmative>. - Yeah. So that's a big drop.

1:06:12

- Yeah. That's, that's, uh, that's, that's a 15% drop in revenue.

1:06:18

- Yeah. I'm sure that the, the podcast publishers are, uh,

1:06:23

are feeling, feeling some pain. - Well, here's the thing. Let's just be honest about this.

1:06:29

Performance should be up. The advertisers should be thrilled.

1:06:35

- Oh, as far as ROI metrics. Yeah.

1:06:37

- Right. Yeah. Right. 15% could be the difference between a renewal

1:06:42

and non-renewal of a, of a ad campaign.

1:06:46

So when you're off, so the question is, here's

1:06:50

- The question. Yeah. But the brands and the advertisers being transparent

1:06:52

with the publishers that they, they got a,

1:06:56

a greater ROI on the campaigns that they did buy,

1:07:00

- Well, let's put it this way, is anybody gonna give 15% back for the entire time

1:07:05

that these downloads were being overrepresented?

1:07:09

- Well, that's, you're right, Todd. That's at the other end of the spectrum, right. Is because

1:07:14

- I remember, I remember relationship there.

1:07:16

I remember doing a audit for a very significant company

1:07:21

that had to write $6.7 million back to their advertisers

1:07:26

for overcharging them.

1:07:31

- Yeah. - Many years ago. Right?

1:07:36

So if you've been over billing 15%,

1:07:44

I know no one wants to hear this. Right? So would that not give an advertiser pause

1:07:53

that they've been paying for too many downloads?

1:07:57

That's a, that's a big number. You think about, uh, a campaign that's, uh,

1:08:02

let's say a campaign's doing a hundred thousand downloads

1:08:06

and 60% of the downloads come from Apple Podcasts.

1:08:10

That's 60,000. And then if we, if we do the quick math here, uh,

1:08:16

15% is 60,000. What is that? Three? Uh, three, no more than that.

1:08:23

Uh, 3000. No, no, no, no. My brain isn't working here.

1:08:27

I've got a little bit of, uh, I've had brain fog today.

1:08:31

So 15% of that, uh, is 0.15.

1:08:36

It's 45. No, 9,000. That's 9,000 downloads

1:08:42

that they got over build on. - Mm-Hmm. - <affirmative> on a hundred, you know,

1:08:46

so 9,000 at, uh, you know, $25 CPM, you know,

1:08:51

that's maybe not that much, $225,

1:08:55

but, you

1:09:00

know, for every episode.

1:09:04

- Yeah. - Hmm, hmm.

1:09:09

<laugh>. - Yeah. - Or, you know,

1:09:13

or 15% less than performance on those 60,000.

1:09:18

So - Yeah, there's always two ends of the spectrum.

1:09:22

- There's two ends. So now they're paying less

1:09:25

and getting better performance. Wasn't that the goal of the IEB?

1:09:30

The IEB was to make sure we are all on,

1:09:33

had the same number coming out so that everyone was, uh,

1:09:37

operating fairly and that we would, uh, could be,

1:09:41

could be compared on performance only

1:09:44

from network to network. - Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. - Yeah.

1:09:48

So everyone would have a level playing field. I remember that was the goal.

1:09:54

- Right. But I also saw on the

1:09:59

Media Roundtable, you know, um, um, Dan,

1:10:03

Dan Granger from Oxford Road, I guess had, uh, uh,

1:10:06

Stephen Goldstein on his podcast, the Media Roundtable,

1:10:11

whi which that, that podcast is actually hosted at Podcast One.

1:10:15

So I don't know if you knew that or not. Hmm. Um, I guess Stephen was on

1:10:22

that program talking about, is it time

1:10:26

to move past RSS - Oh my God. Really? So

1:10:31

- That was, yeah, that was one of the topics.

1:10:35

- What, what, what is, what is there, okay.

1:10:41

What are we moving to? - I know, I, I

1:10:46

- Agree. Time new would be on RSS. Okay. Then what?

1:10:50

- Yeah. - What then how, how are you, it sounds to me like

1:10:55

he's not a, he's not a gatekeeper type of guy, is he?

1:11:00

- Well, I don't know if I would put him in that kind of

1:11:05

mindset, but I think, I mean, he spent most

1:11:10

of his career in, in commercial radio.

1:11:12

Um, so you think about, um, just the fact

1:11:17

that, you know, Dan

1:11:21

Granger would have him on, on that topic given

1:11:26

Dan's passion for podcasting.

1:11:29

Um, so did you - Listen to - It?

1:11:31

Free podcasting, all this kinda stuff. And I, I think this maybe is a response to, you know,

1:11:37

you know, Steve is doing a, a course at the NYU

1:11:42

in New York here on the business of podcasting.

1:11:46

And I think what he's seeing is the same thing somewhat

1:11:50

that I've been saying too, is the influence

1:11:53

of, um, of YouTube, - Spotify, oh, stop.

1:11:57

Put another $20 in the can, please. - I know. And, and you know, that way

1:12:02

of thinking plays into proprietary platforms,

1:12:06

- Right. On. They then, then what they're saying is to

1:12:12

all the thousands and tens of thousands of indie podcasters,

1:12:16

they have no desire to do, do video.

1:12:19

They're telling them to fuck off. - Yeah. But I mean, 'cause if you host your show, um,

1:12:27

just on Spotify, or you host your show just on YouTube,

1:12:30

or you host your show just on these platforms, then,

1:12:34

then the place for RSS starts to dissipate.

1:12:38

Right. And I do agree with that. Um,

1:12:42

- That's, well, you, you, you agree it starts to dissipate,

1:12:45

but you agree that it's a bad idea. - Well, it's a bad idea for podcasting. Yeah.

1:12:50

I agree with that. I mean, I mean, I think it's hard

1:12:54

to make a case to get rid of RSS in

1:12:57

- The context. It's impossible to get rid of r ss - Today.

1:13:00

Right. Um, and how it's been for a long time.

1:13:03

I don't think that RSS is broken as a, as a method

1:13:07

of distribution of content. Rob, - You've been drinking the YouTube Kool-Aid too much?

1:13:11

- No, no. Well, no, I don't think it's broken <laugh>.

1:13:13

And I think that we do need to move

1:13:17

to podcasting 2.0 kind of Yeah.

1:13:20

Enhancements to it. But the industry needs to embrace that too.

1:13:23

And, and I, I'm not sure that that, that they have

1:13:28

as much as probably what we need going forward.

1:13:32

It's, but, you know, part of, part of

1:13:34

what they talked about here is, well, also around dumb money

1:13:38

and podcasting, but, um, how, you know, what they say,

1:13:43

if anything, advertisers should do with AM and FM radio.

1:13:48

So they're also talking about the, the other end

1:13:50

of the spectrum, which is what's gonna happen to broadcast radio.

1:13:55

- They're screwed. Um, - Right.

1:13:57

So if you think about getting rid of RSS and you think about, um, radio not being a place

1:14:04

to engage anymore, then what are we left with?

1:14:08

We're left with, um, everything moving

1:14:10

to large proprietary platforms, um,

1:14:14

on kind of exclusives. - Well, guess what? That's when, that's when the

1:14:21

podcasters will be treated the same way as

1:14:26

musicians, and they will get nothing.

1:14:30

They'll have to rely on live events, concerts, merchandise.

1:14:35

They will get nothing. So anyone that buys into this that's a creator,

1:14:43

they they need to be shook violently

1:14:46

and say, think about

1:14:50

what you're doing. - Yeah. 'cause in the metadata here, they are claiming that

1:14:56

we're, we're going beyond the RSS feed.

1:15:00

Okay. So they're, they're making the assertion

1:15:03

that they see in the market that we're already moving

1:15:06

beyond RSS - Then what they're, what they're,

1:15:09

- I think they're being triggered by what they're seeing at YouTube.

1:15:12

- Well, guess what? They're then part of the podcast industrial complex

1:15:16

that is only worried about themselves and not worried about creators.

1:15:20

And the, the second we stop worrying about creators

1:15:25

and start overarching the importance of big, big media

1:15:29

companies that are already screwing creators,

1:15:34

people we have to, we have to be on the war path

1:15:38

on this type of conversation. - Well, it brings back the issue of gatekeepers. Yeah.

1:15:44

Um, and it brings back the issue of

1:15:47

more control over the content, um, content moderation.

1:15:51

So the bigger platforms are gonna be fully embracing

1:15:54

content moderation. So you think about these brand safety

1:15:57

and suitability tools that are rolling out too,

1:16:00

- Thank God for open RSS. - Right? And you look at what's happening at YouTube

1:16:04

around content, um, filtering

1:16:07

and censorship and things like that. Um, you can kind of see how that plays into

1:16:14

kind of this, this view.

1:16:16

And it's actually going back to an earlier era, uh, around content.

1:16:21

And, and unfortunately we're,

1:16:23

we're seeing a tough time, right. People are, you know, you know, you continue

1:16:29

to see there's fewer shows

1:16:32

updating weekly, there are episodes.

1:16:35

Um, and I just wonder, Todd, I mean,

1:16:39

how do we get this moving in the other direction again?

1:16:42

Or are we gonna see a shift towards just, you know,

1:16:46

a a relatively small pool of huge shows

1:16:49

and that becomes the medium, which is exactly like we had back in the nineties with, um,

1:16:54

- I don't, I don't, these big networks, I, I don't agree

1:16:56

with that because there's always, well,

1:16:58

- No, are we seeing a, I mean, are there,

1:17:00

there's a danger of that. - Ah, there's, there's always been a pool of big shows,

1:17:06

and there's always been an audience for every show

1:17:10

for a smaller show, right? Yeah. So, you know,

1:17:13

and not every show is gonna be a big show.

1:17:16

Not every show's gonna be to live on the topic and the genre.

1:17:19

No, they're not. Right. And not every podcaster cares.

1:17:22

They're, they're a big show. I I I, I, I, I don't, I refuse to be drug down into

1:17:29

the thought that we are going

1:17:34

to move into an era of what it was

1:17:37

before, where you have to sign a contract

1:17:40

to be on a platform, and you have to be controlled by a program director.

1:17:44

And you can't say X, Y, and Z because it's gonna piss off an advertiser.

1:17:49

You know, this is, we have to realize that

1:17:52

that's the direction it's going right now. Well, guess what? Not everybody caress about money.

1:17:58

And if this is what it's all about, people are,

1:18:01

this is a conversation completely about money.

1:18:04

If if money wasn't involved, no one would care.

1:18:09

There would be no discussion about YouTube or anything.

1:18:13

This is about money, about whose pockets are gonna get filled and in the, in the,

1:18:18

and in the end, you go to a closed system,

1:18:21

podcasters are not going to get paid.

1:18:24

You remain in an open system. You still have the viability if you want, of the potentially

1:18:30

of earning money, but you go to a closed system,

1:18:33

the rich will get richer, the creators will get screwed.

1:18:40

Yeah. They don't care. Look what YouTube does now.

1:18:44

YouTube only rewards the top shows.

1:18:46

The rest of the shows get nothing. Nothing. Right. Nothing.

1:18:51

What happens on Spotify, only the top shows get money.

1:18:55

Everyone else gets nothing. So it's up to their own devices to monetize their podcasts.

1:19:05

Right? Yeah. And podcasters gotta realize this.

1:19:13

And I, I think you, you don't hear podcasters saying,

1:19:16

let's kill RSS. You only hear that from many people.

1:19:22

You don't hear pod a podcaster saying, we need

1:19:24

to abandon RSS. That only comes from people that are part I I, I'm part

1:19:29

of the podcast industrial complex, but I'm also a podcaster.

1:19:33

Right. And,

1:19:41

you know, I just, I I'm at a point now where,

1:19:46

eh, I guess, you know, we just have to continue to educate.

1:19:50

I I, is there anyone in this audience

1:19:55

that thinks it's a good idea to get rid of RF?

1:20:01

And if there's anybody in this audience that thinks it's a good idea to get rid

1:20:04

of RS please stop listening today. Yeah. You're part of the problem.

1:20:16

People need to start speaking up.

1:20:21

You know, I'll go over there and comment on that one.

1:20:24

- Yeah. I'm also on, on his website too,

1:20:28

and there's an article in here talking about the same topic,

1:20:31

and there's a quote from his article said, there is,

1:20:37

there is still a debate about what a podcast is.

1:20:41

- Well, you know, - And whether it

1:20:44

must have an R assessment, - <laugh>, I think that ship has sailed.

1:20:49

- Say, we'll have to move beyond that.

1:20:53

- No. The list. But the thing is, we're not moving beyond that.

1:20:57

The listeners choose where they wanna listen to podcasts.

1:21:00

If they wanna listen on YouTube, great. If they wanna listen their podcast app, great.

1:21:06

But I don't want to deny them the ability

1:21:09

to listen on a podcast app. - Right? Yeah.

1:21:14

I mean, his argument here is, as TV as an example,

1:21:18

sees its business model crushed by viewer choice, it now

1:21:22

delivers content wherever there is an audience.

1:21:26

Yeah. To be found. Of course, podcasters thinking about how

1:21:28

to grow and retain audience should have

1:21:33

my students in mind, is what you're saying, uh,

1:21:36

younger people in mind and how they discover content. Of

1:21:39

- Course, we've always said we don't care where they listen long as they listen.

1:21:43

Right. But stop talking about getting rid of RSS,

1:21:47

it's podcasts should be consumed where every people,

1:21:50

where we've always, I've said that from day one

1:21:53

since 2004. I don't care what,

1:21:56

- I'm not sure, you know, it's probably being portrayed exactly.

1:22:00

Um, the way it should. I mean, R-S-R-S-S should remain the way it is. Yeah.

1:22:07

Right? It's not like we have to promote

1:22:09

or advocate for getting rid of rsf. No.

1:22:14

- Right. That would be - Time to move beyond - R That would, that would be the death of the industry

1:22:19

- Move beyond the concept that it only has to be RSF

1:22:23

- Tell Libson, tell Buzz Sprout, tell rss.com, tell

1:22:27

all the all the companies that you're not needed anymore.

1:22:33

- No, no. But that's not what's being said here, Todd.

1:22:35

It's, it's like, uh, I think

1:22:38

what the industry has been is very insular to say,

1:22:41

podcasting is only about - RSFI think you and I have been. Right. And

1:22:45

- What he's saying here is that, is that we, we, we have

1:22:47

to open our mind to think about

1:22:50

how audiences are consuming the content that may be seen

1:22:53

as an Rs as - A podcast.

1:22:56

Yeah, that's fine. Again, we're, we're on YouTube, but

1:22:58

- That's, that's, yeah. Instead of focusing on just,

1:23:01

you know, and I think he's using this, - What he, what he should say is, is podcasts have moved

1:23:07

beyond RSS are being consumed everywhere,

1:23:09

but they've been that way for the last 10 years.

1:23:12

- Yeah. It's, it's, it's perception of what a podcast is, is

1:23:17

expanded in the mind of the, of the viewer, the listener. Right.

1:23:20

- And it's our fault, - But the medium

1:23:23

of RSS has a place in the ecosystem.

1:23:26

- It's our fault. It's podcasters for letting this happen.

1:23:30

- No, I don't think, so's - Not our fault.

1:23:32

It is our fault fault. We, that is because we haven't educated our audiences on the value.

1:23:37

- Well, Todd, there is a piece of this that we don't have control over,

1:23:41

and that's, that's what a platform like a YouTube does, right?

1:23:45

- We don't, or - A platform like a Spotify does. Sure.

1:23:47

We don't have as podcasters out here,

1:23:50

- The - Real world. We don't have control over those

1:23:53

- Big, you're missing the point as a podcaster.

1:23:57

No, we don't have control of what YouTube does or what Spotify does,

1:24:00

but we as podcasters can very well exfo

1:24:06

the value of being on open RSS

1:24:10

that guarantees that this show

1:24:14

and any show that's in podcasting will stay online

1:24:18

regardless of the commercial interests

1:24:22

of YouTube and Spotify.

1:24:24

If they decide that this show should not be surfaced,

1:24:28

should not be, should be shadow banned, should be buried,

1:24:33

we don't have to worry. We still are in control of our destiny.

1:24:37

We're in control of our brand, we're in control

1:24:39

of our dot coms, and we could put the double middle finger at any

1:24:44

of these platforms that they call themselves a podcast

1:24:48

platform, but yet are not being ingested by RSS

1:24:51

because this show and all podcasts that are on RSS will remain online

1:24:57

regardless of what those big hamus do do.

1:25:01

- Yeah. I do think that there's an example of that,

1:25:03

and that's Alex Jones, you - Know, but there's lots of examples of that.

1:25:08

Spotify kills shows on a daily basis off their platform.

1:25:14

I get the emails, podcasters,

1:25:16

why have I been removed from Spotify? Why we don't know why they've been removed,

1:25:23

- Right. - All the time removed, episodes removed,

1:25:28

this episode was removed because of X.

1:25:32

- Yeah. But I have this, this conversation with folks

1:25:35

that are not what I consider to be part of the podcast

1:25:39

industry or part of the, the bubble of podcasting.

1:25:43

And they, they kind of just,

1:25:47

but look at me if I say, you know, people in the industry are very focused on RSS,

1:25:53

and it's like, if it, if a show doesn't have R Ss feeds,

1:25:56

it's not a podcast, and they just look at me puzzled.

1:25:59

It's like those people don't, - Those are, but those are listeners

1:26:04

and we, we don't care how listeners consume

1:26:07

the in the industrial. - Okay. But we're splicing hairs

1:26:10

- On this. Okay. No, no. We're talk right now. This show's talking to podcasters.

1:26:15

- No, I get that. - Okay. So podcasters need to talk

1:26:19

to their audiences and they understand.

1:26:22

Don't care where you listen, but remember, if I disappear off YouTube,

1:26:26

you can still find me over here. Or if I disappear, okay,

1:26:29

- Todd, what I see happening in the industry is people are

1:26:32

objecting to anyone calling a video version of,

1:26:37

of a podcast or a show that looks like a podcast, um, on YouTube as

1:26:44

you're like making a huge mistake by calling that a podcast.

1:26:48

And, and, but that's not taking into account

1:26:51

what the viewer sees. And it, it comes across as that we're being, um, kind

1:26:56

of a little retro here. - I don't, I don't call out what was actually happening.

1:27:02

I personally send comments in YouTube channels.

1:27:07

I don't say anything to anyone publicly.

1:27:10

If they say that they're, they're, uh, they have a podcast on YouTube.

1:27:13

I don't rerate them. I just leave a comment.

1:27:16

I can't find your podcast on Apple Podcasts.

1:27:20

- Yeah. - Where is it? - Right? Yeah.

1:27:26

- You know, I think it's a reasonable question because all they do then is

1:27:29

because oftentimes they don't know,

1:27:33

they don't know well, - Or they don't want the, the extra effort

1:27:37

and the extra expense. - 90% of it is they don't know

1:27:42

they're in a YouTube ecosystem. They think, oh, this is YouTube.

1:27:45

This is where I'm put my podcast. They, they, they don't know. They, they just don't know.

1:27:50

They haven't been educated. - And not all shows on YouTube will make

1:27:55

good audio podcasts. - <laugh> No. - You know, that's, that's also a, a,

1:28:00

a truth as well. Um, you know,

1:28:03

especially if they're very visual and things like that.

1:28:07

And they don't talk about the visual experience in their program. Right.

1:28:11

- So what you need to do is, anytime anyone ask about this show, make sure you send them

1:28:15

to the video version on Apple Podcast. - Right. Well, that,

1:28:19

that actually blows people's minds sometimes.

1:28:22

It's like what? You can get video and Apple podcasts.

1:28:26

- Yeah. So just do that. - Apple is not, not really promoting that anymore

1:28:31

- And just do that going forward. - So yeah. And I do, and I do.

1:28:35

And people look at me shocked. - Okay. So has some tweets.

1:28:39

I mean, some, some, uh, boosts come in and we're out of time here.

1:28:43

1701 from Mike Dell. Ours s is only way for free

1:28:46

and Open podcasting 1701 from Mike again.

1:28:50

Welcome back. I got two of those. Thanks for the double boost.

1:28:54

We got one 111 SAS from some quack,

1:28:57

and he says Podcasting 2.0, episode one.

1:29:01

And so basically, uh, oh, that was from a,

1:29:07

a different show I was on, sorry. Yeah. Uh, 12 sets. Oh, that was from Podcasting 2.0.

1:29:13

Um, 1701 sets from Mike De a week ago.

1:29:16

Overcast Podcast grew and Castomatic does OPML import.

1:29:23

Um, 500 SATs from RSS.

1:29:25

Ben, great to hear you guys from two weeks ago.

1:29:30

Um, Let's see

1:29:35

what else this was. Uh, yeah, I've already read these.

1:29:38

So those are the boosts that come in. We've had a lot of streaming SATs, though.

1:29:42

A lot of people are listening to the show on, uh,

1:29:46

podcast apps.com. A show, uh, app from podcast apps.com

1:29:50

and streaming our, um, castomatic, um,

1:29:55

what else, uh, fountain, what else is,

1:29:59

who else is listening? Let me look here. Podcast Guru.

1:30:06

So anyway, those are some of the apps that are streaming SATs to us.

1:30:10

Um, 809 SATs a minute, 28 SATs a minute.

1:30:14

A hundred SATs a minute, a thousand SATs a minute.

1:30:18

So yeah, thanks for everyone that is, uh,

1:30:20

streaming the show live. So open RSS

1:30:28

you have to pry it for my dead cold hands.

1:30:32

- <laugh> <laugh>. - And you owe the, you owe the,

1:30:36

you owe the tip jar of 40 or 60 or a hundred bucks or whatever.

1:30:40

It's for many times you said many. The p word associated with the Y word

1:30:45

- <laugh> - Podcast and something Tube.

1:30:51

- Yeah. <laugh>. Not that we can't do

1:30:55

that. Yeah. - Alright everybody, IM you go, go ahead.

1:31:00

- I was just gonna mention that I just popped,

1:31:02

popped over the podcast index catalog of content

1:31:06

and it's showing 4,294,000 shows.

1:31:10

- Yeah. How many in the last 10 days? - 241,102 have published an episode.

1:31:17

- How about in - 3,330

1:31:21

8,006? Uh, 89.

1:31:24

- Man, we gotta get that number up - In the last 60 days.

1:31:28

413. - Yeah. - Almost four 14 and 90 days.

1:31:34

463. - That number's down. Okay.

1:31:41

- I'm, three days is only 107,000.

1:31:45

- I [email protected].

1:31:48

At Geek News on Twitter, at Geek News at Geek News chat on Mastodon.

1:31:55

- Please, uh, let us know what you think about the format

1:31:58

of the show and what, what you think about this show

1:32:00

and how you know, what we need to do, you know, better

1:32:05

with the show to, to meet your

1:32:08

needs or what you're looking for. Hope hopefully we're, we're doing a good job, Todd.

1:32:12

I, I mean, um,

1:32:14

- Numbers are steady. - Uh, well that's, that's always good.

1:32:18

I'm always happy to, to see that.

1:32:21

Um, but, uh, you can find me, um, on Twitter at Rob Greenley

1:32:25

and, uh, I have a website, rob greenley.com.

1:32:30

I do a show on the Streamy Yard channel every Thursday night

1:32:33

at 7:00 PM Eastern. Uh, it's live. I had Jim ACH on, um, yesterday

1:32:40

talking about the history of video podcasting.

1:32:44

Oh. So that was the episode, which was very interesting.

1:32:48

'cause we talked about all those early shows, um,

1:32:51

that were popular back in the early era of, of podcasting,

1:32:56

uh, when, when video was a, a really,

1:33:00

a really very viable, um,

1:33:04

media type in the podcasting space.

1:33:06

Whole startup companies were started and Jim was in the middle of it, um, back in those days.

1:33:11

And, and now he just came out of being the CEO of VidCon.

1:33:16

So he's very much plugged in.

1:33:18

But yeah, so, so if you wanna send me an email, um,

1:33:21

Rob [email protected], that would be, uh,

1:33:25

it'd be great to hear from you. - And, uh, so anyway,

1:33:28

we'll be back on our normal scheduled time next Wednesday.

1:33:32

Everyone. Take care and we'll, we'll see you back here, uh,

1:33:36

back here, live in Lynn. And, uh, thanks for being with us today. Everyone.

1:33:40

Take care. You next time. Yeah. - Bye everybody.