0:00

- Welcome to the new Media Show. We're back doing

0:03

- The new media show again. - People are actually gonna listen to this junk.

0:07

- We do it live. We're - Live right now. - We'll just do it live. - We're going

0:11

live. We're going live. - We just can't get enough. The new media show, let's

0:15

- Go. Just - Do it live. - We're going live, we're going live

0:20

- By being - The new media show. If we do it live,

0:23

- Just do it live, - But do it live. Going live, going

0:26

- Live The new media show. I'm unlike Adam Curry, and you're more like John c Devora,

0:30

- I think. I'm Adam Curry, and you're the old curmudgeon.

0:34

- We do it live doing the new media show again, - The new media show technology.

0:39

We make it sound so special. And we were talked about, Rob,

0:43

they didn't like our other intro music

0:47

- <laugh>. Yeah. I'm not, I, I'm not sure I'm entirely surprised, Todd.

0:51

- You know, they didn't like the ai monotone No emotion,

0:57

- Right? - Oh my God. You can't make any.

0:59

- Yeah. I think it's time to just, just do it like we've always done it, Todd, don't,

1:03

- You can't, right? You can't make anyone happy. Meanwhile, Rob, I am going to highly recommend

1:10

that you buy a Hial HEIL Hi microphone

1:16

holder, because as we are getting ready to go

1:19

to live today, yours broke

1:22

- <laugh>. - How many my, - My SM seven B just kind of, kind

1:27

of fell in my hand. <laugh>, - You were saying this looks loose

1:30

and it just kinda just like fell apart.

1:33

So that's an OC White. How many years did it last?

1:37

- I bought this, this boom stand back in probably 2000.

1:42

- Oh, so 20. It's, it's - 24 years.

1:45

- 24 years pretty good. So I almost,

1:48

- As long as I've been a podcaster <laugh>, - How many times have you re uh, replaced the springs on it?

1:54

- Uh, never. - See, I, I had one

1:56

and maybe Mike was a much heavier, but it would just sag on me.

2:00

And I was replacing springs every year, and I bought a, I bought a, hi.

2:05

I, I still say this is the best

2:09

boom arm known to man.

2:11

It's, I I've had mine for 20 years too, so, yep. Of course.

2:16

I'm looking to see. I got a little rust on there. It point, mine will be the one that'll fall apart next.

2:20

But anyway, so you are now having to

2:25

revert in an emergency. I may have an OOC wide around here. I'll look around.

2:30

I, because I don't throw anything away, matter of fact,

2:33

I know, I, I bet I have two of them if I'm find one. Yeah, I

2:35

- Think I have an, actually, you know what, Todd, I think I have another one in a box over here, so,

2:39

- Oh, if you don't let me know, I'll send you the one I've got in the closet over

2:43

here. So, you know, - I used to own three of them.

2:46

So <laugh> plus, if you go and try

2:49

and buy one one of these OOC white boom arms.

2:52

Now they're, they're like 250 or something. What? Yeah,

2:56

- I think they were like 60 or $70 before,

2:59

and I thought I was going out in a stretch. And of course, you know, the boom arms

3:02

- Back in 2000, they were like 79 or $80.

3:06

So that was a long time ago. - The, the, uh, the boom arms, I,

3:11

I probably should put up here is the fancy one that we,

3:13

because we took all the blueberry equipment and distributed,

3:16

and we had very, very, very nice boom arms that, uh,

3:20

were very, very expensive, that got no use.

3:24

So anyway, anyway, boom. Arm or not, you are using a mic stand,

3:28

so don't bump the table too hard. - Yeah, actually, I don't mind this, actually,

3:33

it's actually nice to have the full frame around me up here,

3:37

and then just the mic is down here, so,

3:40

- Okay. Well, I will say, don't mind it.

3:43

We, um, this has been a week for me where I have been,

3:48

uh, oh, what's the word I want to say, um,

3:53

tweaking and not from a, not a drug induced tweak,

3:58

<laugh> or dancing torquing.

4:01

Not nothing like that. Um, but it's been one of those weeks

4:05

where I just had been nitpicking every little thing.

4:09

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I tell you, I, I talked to,

4:12

to Dave over at, uh, Mac Mack Geek Gab,

4:17

and I blamed him, and him and I had a meeting today, and I, I blamed him for costing me money.

4:22

And, um, for years, I've,

4:25

everything's been the status quo here. I haven't touched really infrastructure since 2019.

4:30

Same thing at my lt. And now in my loft.

4:34

My speeds, my internet speeds are getting better.

4:37

And, uh, I have two connections there.

4:40

And anyway, the, I'm running some very, very old routers.

4:43

And, um, he was talking on his show about this, this product

4:48

from Unify Mm-Hmm.

4:51

<affirmative>. And, you know, I don't know about you,

4:54

but it seems to me about every three to four years,

4:58

the cable modem, not the cable modem, the router

5:01

that tack us to the cable modem. It seems like those things just, just, you know,

5:06

start causing you problems and gives you the middle finger.

5:09

And, and I just, like, it's not starting to happen here yet,

5:13

but it definitely is happening at the house. So I kind of did the plunge and bought some un unified gear

5:19

and <laugh>, my God, hurt my wallet just a little bit.

5:24

And, uh, so lo and behold, I,

5:27

and unbeknownst to me, I get a call from my, uh,

5:32

uh, I, my tolerated cable provider here, spectrum <laugh>.

5:37

And they said, Hey, we got a deal for you.

5:42

And I'm like, really? What's the deal? How much more money you wanna, you know,

5:45

having a business line in, uh, hey, you can go to one gig.

5:50

I said, one gig symmetrical. Oh, no, that's coming, but we can get you one gig and 35 up.

5:56

I said, well, how much more is that gonna cost me another $300 or something?

6:00

And he says, well, he says, it's 50 bucks more a month.

6:04

I said, it ain't worth it. I said, I'm not doing it.

6:06

I said, most of the country can get one gig symmetrical in

6:09

markets for 50 or $60.

6:11

I said, I don't need it. He, well, let me, let me talk

6:14

to my supervisor, <laugh>.

6:18

It's like, talk to the car salesman. He got it down to, oh,

6:21

- What's the latency on it, is the bigger - Question.

6:24

Well, he got it down to 30, so, mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, tomorrow I'll have one gig.

6:28

- Oh, $30, is that what you - Saying?

6:30

$30 more than what I'm paying currently. Oh, - Got it. Which,

6:33

- You know, do I need it? I need the up speed more, right? Yeah.

6:36

And I said to him, I said, so when is this one,

6:39

one gigabit, symmetrical gonna happen? One gig down. I said, I don't care about the down.

6:43

I got enough down. I need the up. And he said, uh, sometime this year, I'm like,

6:49

how much more is that gonna cost? He said, it's gonna be free. We're just gonna turn it on.

6:54

I'm like, huh. Hmm.

6:56

$30, maybe one gig symmetrical, uh,

7:02

the geek at me. Okay.

7:05

- Yeah. But is that like a year in the future, - Or is that right around the That's exactly, you know,

7:10

or is it, you know, 18 months? And, uh, so anyway, the guy comes tomorrow,

7:14

replace the modem. So then I'm thinking, eh, I wired this place for on, uh,

7:20

cat six, uh, thinking someday I would have more speed.

7:24

And I have one gig switches on everything I'm thinking.

7:27

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Now I start, my fingers start twitching

7:29

because of this buying this unified gear for the house,

7:32

which is totally overkill. I'm thinking, do I take this stuff I bought from the house

7:37

and bring it in here and do I take the stuff I have here

7:40

and take it home and where's the trade?

7:42

And so anyway, thanks Dave. Over at Geek Gab Weekly, uh, you know, all said and done.

7:49

I'm, you know, gonna be out probably two big ones, uh,

7:53

you know, to do all these upgrades, which,

7:55

you know, probably are not needed. But what do geeks do, right?

7:58

We, we upgrade stuff, but it's been a while since I invested in, uh mm-Hmm.

8:03

<affirmative> backbone here. And maybe, maybe time.

8:06

So, hey Dave, uh, in chat.

8:08

That's not the same day, different day. But, uh, anyway, happy podcasting.

8:14

Welcome to New Media Show, <laugh> <laugh>.

8:18

So yeah, tweaking has been the thing.

8:21

And, uh, it's, it's like spring cleaning, you know, it's,

8:23

it's, it's April, uh, so, you know, if you're a podcaster,

8:28

I, I think it's a good time to do some housekeeping.

8:32

And what does that mean? It means upgrade, uh, you know,

8:35

look at your show flow. It's a good opportunity to tweak. Yeah.

8:40

And by the way, we are live, litten live, so if anybody's streaming the show on one of those

8:45

wing fd new podcast [email protected], uh, please do it.

8:50

And no, uh, no, I will not, uh, impact you anymore.

8:56

Um, uh, it was Adam,

8:59

he was complaining about our pot on fire. Yeah. He's Oh, he was complaining about fire. Yeah.

9:05

Complaining about the fire. So, - Mr. Curry, is that who that

9:08

who Adam is? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. - Adam was complaining about that.

9:11

So anyway, um, here we go.

9:15

- So would you say he's, he's fairly anti ai,

9:19

or is it just that the music was bad? - No, we thought the music was bad.

9:23

And he's kinda anti AI for Right. General purpose.

9:26

I think, you know, he's been pretty, uh, you know, for

9:30

targeted solutions like we did. I, and I think he's, you know, I don't know.

9:33

I think the jury's out. I think he's okay with it.

9:36

But, um, and I'm, I've had to really tell the team, you know, to, uh,

9:43

to be honest with you, been a few things that have come across my desk lately.

9:47

I said, nah, that, that one,

9:49

we're gonna throw that one away. You know, that, that,

9:53

that didn't have enough human editing in it.

9:56

Um, and it, it sounded too, uh, mm-Hmm.

9:59

<affirmative>, you know, in conclusion, um, you know,

10:03

<laugh>, it sounded so, you know, we've been trying

10:06

to be very, very careful and not to, you know, in product

10:11

that we're putting out in pages and websites and stuff like that.

10:14

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But I did do, I did do something unique the other day.

10:17

I had a little fun, but I won't talk about it on the show

10:19

because I don't wanna turn this into an AI show again today,

10:23

- <laugh>. So, I mean, are there any topics that are top of mind

10:29

with you in the industry right now? I, I've got a couple that I wanted to mention

10:33

and kind of explore a little bit that have come up in the last couple days,

10:36

especially on Twitter. I don't know if you've been, uh,

10:39

- I, I saw your little, I saw your little spat.

10:42

Um, let's, I will say it's

10:45

- A spat, or is it just a kind of calling out an obvious thing?

10:49

- So, well, it's, it's interesting, but I will say this.

10:52

We did launch just a little tut toot of our own horn here.

10:56

Um, we did launch an a 50% discount for students.

10:59

So if you have a college student that's looking to, uh,

11:03

start a podcast 50% off for a year, all you gotta do is,

11:06

is validate you're, you're a student and we'll give you a discount over at Blueberry now.

11:10

So anyway, no one covered that news.

11:13

We, we sent that information out and, you know, no one covered, it wasn't in, I, I,

11:18

I don't know what happened. Uh,

11:21

- How dare you, James Cridland. How

11:24

- So? I don't know why it didn't happen Pod News,

11:26

but I guess it was, you know, not worthy of mention

11:32

- <laugh>. I have a feeling that context of James is gonna continue

11:37

to come up on the episode today, so, yeah. Well,

11:40

- It looked to me like, you know, you, you step Rob,

11:43

you know, when you're going to step into a pilot, do,

11:48

do, do make sure you put on your waiters,

11:50

because it looked to me. I did. You you did. You, you, you stepped into it.

11:54

So do, do share your observation.

11:59

- Well, it's, it's one of those things that's been going on

12:02

for a couple years now between Pod News

12:07

and the upcoming kind of community slash kind

12:12

of, uh, as Brian Barletta says,

12:15

it's a trade organization, right?

12:18

Um, is, is what he

12:20

and Brian's contention is, is that sounds profitable,

12:25

is not competitive to Pod news.

12:28

Um, and it isn't a competitive thing, which

12:32

I don't agree with, but he seems to think

12:35

that it's something different than what Pod News is doing.

12:38

And then there are elements that are different, I would say.

12:40

But really, this whole conversation,

12:43

this primarily happened on, on X Twitter

12:46

and was Tom Webster posted a post about his,

12:52

his keynote that he gave at Podcast Movement Evolutions just

12:56

here recently, and made a little comment in the

13:01

Twitter thread saying, if you weren't at PME this year,

13:05

here's the keynote pod news didn't want you to know about.

13:10

So Tom kind of opened the Pandora's box on that one.

13:14

Um, and, and I, I just posed a couple of questions

13:19

after that and kind of wondered if,

13:24

if, um, um, you know,

13:28

sounds profitable had mentioned James Lin's keynote <laugh>.

13:33

- Oh, - Right. I mean, it's an obvious question, right?

13:35

Okay. And so I guess they had not, oh,

13:41

so you have this kind of situation, and I was pretty clear in my comments back

13:45

and forth about, um, it, it being, you know, these two

13:50

communities, whatever you wanna say, news sources

13:54

for podcasting industry have their, their constituents.

13:58

There's a lot of crossover between people

14:01

that follow Pod news and people that follow, um, uh, sounds profitable.

14:06

I think that's obvious for everyone to see. Um, so, you know, to think

14:11

that somehow they're not competitive with each other is maybe a little, well,

14:15

- I don't think sounds inaccurate. Sounds Prop is a news. There is news about their members.

14:21

I, you know, we, we don't get mentioned in Sounds Proper

14:24

'cause we're currently not a, a member member.

14:27

It sounds profitable, so I don't expect

14:29

to be covered in Sounds Profitables newsletters.

14:32

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> because, you know, they're talking about their industry topics

14:35

and generally about their members, which is, is fine.

14:38

Um, so I don't think I would have personally necessarily

14:42

expected, um, both to be talking about each other.

14:49

I, I, yeah. - And I made that clear in here too,

14:53

but I think what, what went over the line was,

14:57

I think Tom's mentioned that somehow James, um,

15:02

was kind of wrong for not listing his,

15:05

because what, what what had happened is, is, uh,

15:07

podcast movement has published most of their keynotes,

15:10

which is really the first time that they've ever really done

15:12

that, um, onto YouTube.

15:15

So I believe there was six keynotes that were posted.

15:18

- Sounds like sounds, sounds like they need my vid

15:22

to pod project to make it available as a podcast.

15:25

- Yeah. Right. And, and so anyway, I guess when James posted, um, all of the

15:32

keynotes, which he actually listed all in Pod news,

15:36

he only listed five out of the six. And so, um, well, I guess, you know, it makes sense.

15:44

Um, but for Tom to object to that, um,

15:48

I asked them if they had run in their newsletter, um,

15:52

all the keynotes either, and as it, as it turns out,

15:55

they had not run any of the keynotes. Um, but then subsequent on Monday, they ran, um,

16:01

primarily Tom's mention of his keynote.

16:05

Um, so, so, so that's why it was a little bit of a back

16:09

and forth around, you know, and I fully acknowledged in the Red Stream that, uh, I,

16:15

I think it's fair that both of 'em don't cover each other.

16:17

I think that's perfectly, you know, acceptable.

16:20

Um, but I don't see either,

16:24

I don't see James being upset.

16:27

It sounds profitable for not running his keynote,

16:30

but Tom was being upset at James for not running his,

16:33

so it was a little bit of a, you know, trying

16:36

to throw somebody under the bus, uh,

16:38

when I don't think it was really the right thing to do.

16:41

I mean, Tom doesn't think that he was throwing James under the bus,

16:45

but I think clearly if you read that tweet, it definitely,

16:49

- I, I missed the tweet and I, you know, to be honest with you Yeah,

16:52

- I just, uh, read it - To you. I, I attended two keynotes. Yeah.

16:56

What two keynotes did I attend? Well, actually it's a YouTube thing, considered a keynote.

17:02

Um, I attended three, I tainted, uh, I,

17:05

I attended James's keynote, uh, Tom's

17:09

and the YouTube Nothing Burger. So, you know, I, those are the only three

17:15

that I had time Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and specifically went and listened to.

17:19

And I did go to a couple of sessions 'cause I was expecting fireworks at a couple that turned out

17:24

to be no fireworks at all, which was, you know, first mm-Hmm.

17:27

<affirmative>. But, um, well, you know,

17:32

uh, I'm not gonna get into the politics

17:34

of why one company does over

17:36

what another company does, you know? And, uh, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's, um,

17:44

it is, it is what it is. And I know some of you hate that phrase, but, um,

17:49

- Well, and it kind of raised another issue is, you know,

17:53

Tom wrote back and said that, you know, that the community needs to support, um, sounds profitable.

18:00

And because kind of my bigger objective was this is kind

18:03

of not good for the podcast industry

18:05

and as a whole to have these different communities kind of,

18:10

- You know, and and - Bashing each other

18:12

or, or playing this - Sounds from an - Unfair

18:16

- Perspective. And, and, you know, forgive me if I'm wrong, Tom,

18:19

but you know, my, and I've talked to Tom about Sounds profitable

18:22

and, you know, we've, we've been mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, had conversations about

18:25

whether we should be in a group. We are not advertising focused Right. At Blueberry.

18:32

And that is, you know, that is a big,

18:37

big, big, big part of Sounds profitable, sound profitable,

18:42

um, business model is that they are largely, um,

18:48

you know, on the advertising side

18:50

and in regards to it being a trade association, you know,

18:54

that that's what they wanna become or, or angling towards.

18:58

That's fine too. But in my opinion, um,

19:03

there's more to the podcasting space than advertising.

19:07

Um, right. So this kind of

19:10

- Raises, I think, uh, Todd a a very important distinction here.

19:14

And I think that's, that's maybe part of a little bit of

19:17

where this is coming from, at least with me, is, is this,

19:22

this assumption that, uh, that, um, like it sounds profitable as an organization

19:26

or as Tom referenced, the Podcast Academy is somehow

19:32

representative of two organizations

19:34

that the whole industry needs to rally around Right.

19:37

And be center for, for this medium.

19:40

I'm not sure that it encapsulates the whole, whole medium,

19:44

or is even welcoming to the whole Medium. - Podcast Academy is doing nothing for podcasters

19:50

that don't have $250 to submit to an award show.

19:55

- Right. Well, I mean, I, - To me, I'm, I'm in the group

20:00

and I probably will not pay my dues again

20:03

over at the podcast Academy. I, I'm really thinking about not continuing

20:07

because they never did what they said they were going to do.

20:12

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, they have mentorship, they have promotion

20:15

of certain shows, and they have the awards.

20:19

What else are they doing? And to me, the average podcaster,

20:26

it gets no value, no value for the Podcast Academy.

20:32

And, you know, it's, they are Big Event

20:35

of the Year is an award show. And yes, they, they did recognize some independent content

20:40

creators this time around, but again, I, you know, what news are they making that helps

20:47

podcasters so - Well, and Todd, to add, add another layer to that, uh,

20:55

I heard many people comment at, I mean,

20:58

I wasn't at Podcast movement, but I, I, I, I heard

21:02

on the live show I did from people from the event telling me

21:05

that, um, they were amazed at how many people,

21:10

uh, were at the Ambs Awards, um, that were not,

21:14

or, uh, podcast movements or that anybody in the community

21:19

that was attending podcast movement were even aware of.

21:22

- So yeah, there was like, there was like maybe 5%. Right.

21:27

And that's, they, they all came in for the evening and - Left's.

21:30

Yeah. That's indicative of kind of what I'm trying

21:33

to say here about these niche groups that are in the podcasting space.

21:37

They are not representative groups of the broader, um, kind

21:42

of community of podcasts.

21:44

They are subgroups amongst the community of podcasts.

21:47

But I wouldn't point everybody to the podcast academy

21:52

and sounds profitable as the foundation of the medium,

21:57

- As, as a, as a business. There is definitely, you know,

22:01

as a company is running a company, there is definitely, um,

22:06

some to, you know, right. And maybe more, maybe more than less an, uh, benefit of,

22:13

of being a member of Sounds Profitable, you know?

22:17

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, um, for sure. But it's,

22:21

- No, I mean, there's benefits that are out there

22:23

for being a part of all these organizations.

22:25

If, if you happen to align with those benefits,

22:28

- You know, and I look at the amount of money that I have

22:30

to send IEB and the amount of money that I have to send to

22:37

renew my certification every year,

22:42

um, that, that's, that's a, that's a big number.

22:45

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that's probably just under $20,000 a year.

22:49

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So, and I won't get into

22:53

what it costs to be a member sounds profitable. That's probably publicly available on their website.

22:57

I'm, I'm not gonna quote that. Yeah. But you add that another amount

23:02

and, you know, at some point you have to say, okay, where's,

23:08

where am I gonna get this much of value?

23:12

You know, I have, I have to get, I have

23:14

to be certified at this point. I have to be as a business. Mm-Hmm.

23:18

- <affirmative>, - You know, until something changes,

23:21

I have to remain re you know, I have to pay that every year

23:24

to get that recertification. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Then if I pay another membership,

23:29

another membership, there's a lot of, we have a,

23:32

there's another trade organization that's starting

23:34

for producers. And, and, and I add that, so you know how, again, I have to,

23:42

I have to go back and say, okay, if I spend X number

23:45

of dollars, is that those relationships, is those, is

23:50

that value going to, um, increase my bottom line?

23:54

And right now, um, we, again,

23:58

we're not advertising focus and our third parties are, you know, our partner is,

24:05

you know, so they, they, they're members over there, um,

24:08

as I would expect them to be. And, um, someone I'm getting ready

24:14

to do a partnership with, they're not. So you, you know, it's, there's a whole there plethora

24:21

of things here.

24:24

And again, I, what they're doing over there is great.

24:27

I have no, nothing negative whatsoever to say about what they're doing Yeah. About

24:31

- Actually what they're doing. Right. - But even this show and the audience that we reach,

24:35

and then 99% of podcasters don't have a clue who Todd and Rob is.

24:39

They probably could care less. They don't know. The new media show is they don't follow any of this stuff.

24:44

This is where I keep going back and telling people, 50% of podcasters don't care

24:51

a iota about making a single penny on their show.

24:55

Right. They're not, they're not, they're not worried.

24:57

And those that are, are looking at multitudes of way

24:59

of making money for their show. So, um, it's not always.

25:04

- Yeah. And my comment back to, to Tom on this thread about this whole thing

25:08

of a trade organization and,

25:10

and Tom just pointing to the Podcast Academy

25:13

and sounds profitable as the, as the industry kind of

25:18

focus of a, like a trade organization

25:21

or an association of sorts, is

25:23

that it's leaving off the table other organizations

25:25

that are active out there too. I don't know if you saw the announcement of the,

25:30

the Podcast Professionals Association

25:32

- Yeah. That's what that one I was referring to. Right, - Right.

25:35

They're ramping up, you know, Tracy and whatever. Yeah.

25:37

Trying to ramp up that. And, and then there's, you know, pod News is,

25:41

is a 30,000 member community out there

25:45

that's aggregating attention. Um, so, you know, there's other groups out there

25:50

that are having an impact that are broader than just those two groups, which cater

25:55

to a very niche part of the podcast industry.

25:59

- Right. You know, my, my job is

26:02

to help podcasters grow their show.

26:05

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, that's, that's my, that's my mission.

26:07

Give them the tools and services they need to grow their show.

26:10

Right, right. In whatever way they want. And connect them with whatever methods of that they need

26:16

to make money or not, you know?

26:20

And, um, so for me, we, yeah.

26:24

We could have a trade association, a podcast hosting companies.

26:27

Well, you know, that we couldn't, - Well, to some degree there is

26:31

a, a little bit of formation. Yeah. - We got the PSB <laugh>,

26:34

- But the podcast standards project, so, you know,

26:38

Sam set's now kind of the, - The spokesperson for - The spokesperson for it. Right.

26:43

- So, you know, and again, I think there's

26:45

so many dichotomies of populations of podcasters.

26:50

- Right. And that's, - You - Know, that's kind of my bigger point here is that,

26:54

you know, if I think back to, you know, the,

26:56

the entire time span of this medium, there's always been different groups in the medium

27:01

that have had an interest in a certain aspect of it, <laugh>.

27:04

Um, but I don't think that we've ever had, well,

27:07

- Hey, by the way, by the way, - One group that everybody can point to

27:10

and say, this is the group that you have

27:12

to join if you're doing podcasting, - Gee, if only Tom was the listener,

27:16

and it could be asked about this. But hey, great show.

27:18

You wanna come on, Tom, I'll, I'll, I'll fire it up

27:22

so you can come on you. Um, we can make this happen.

27:31

Uh, if you, if you've got Skype, Tom GNC pod two,

27:39

we'll leave it open. See if Tom comes in. <laugh>, you know, I,

27:45

again, I think every organization has value for

27:49

that audience of which is just a member of, but again,

27:52

I'm, I it's

27:56

- Perfectly fine if they all, all, all, all compete with each each other. But

27:59

- You would definitely, you have definitely put your waiters on today, Rob.

28:02

So, you know, you, you, you, you definitely stepped into do, do a little bit.

28:07

- Mm, I don't think so. I think I'm calling out what is plainly,

28:12

plainly there and obvious. - Well, I, I didn't see it, so I wasn't, you know,

28:16

and how many people actually saw that? - Well, probably not that many. Right.

28:21

- You know, and here you are, <laugh>, but it's, - But I think it, you're - Stirring a pot today now.

28:25

Me <laugh>. - Well, it's, it's

28:28

because I think it's an important topic to talk about in the industry around the different subgroups

28:33

and the different interest groups that exist in this medium.

28:36

And I think we have yet to have like one overriding,

28:41

like association organiz. There will never be - Organization.

28:44

There'll never be. Right. There's too many different groups.

28:47

- But yet we've seen all that happen in,

28:50

in other media types. Right. Like television and, and radio.

28:54

And, and those have had their - Well, no, you've got, you've got you.

28:57

- Well, the NAB - Well, but you, what you have is, yeah, you've got the NAB, but

29:03

- Which is the overriding group for the broadcasting industry.

29:07

Podcasting doesn't have that. - Well, I, the NEB doesn't really facilitate

29:13

that much for the broadcaster, the person on the mic,

29:19

do they, they mostly about the industry, the radio stations.

29:23

So they have a segment of Right.

29:27

Of people, so they don't cover everybody.

29:30

So there's no way to, to lump everybody into one, one pot.

29:34

- Yeah. And I think that that also is an important component here too, I guess, is

29:39

that there are subgroups and, and these groups pop up that cater

29:43

to a particular interest area. And, and that's the direction that we go.

29:47

But there's been this constant conversation around having a,

29:51

you know, a, a standards body for podcasting.

29:54

So that's kind of what we're seeing bubble up here

29:56

as we've seen separate groups form

29:59

that are taking on specific tasks

30:02

or roles in the industry to go

30:05

after these, these needs that are out there.

30:08

Um, and that's, I mean, certainly sounds profitable,

30:11

takes care of a certain need, uh, in the industry

30:14

around monetization and advertising and,

30:17

and those kind of strategy conversations that, you know,

30:21

are, are helpful to companies and, and podcasters.

30:24

Right. And then there's the Podcast Academy,

30:26

which has the awards stuff,

30:28

and then now there's PSP, which is taking care

30:31

of the RSS syndication, but, but

30:34

- You got people that are podcast hosts that want nothing

30:37

to do with PSP that you think, think that. Right. I

30:41

- Don't think there's a lot of reasons for a podcast talent to be involved in the

30:43

- Psp No, no, no. You have a podcast host hosting company. Yeah. Yeah.

30:49

It wants to, nothing to do with PSP because they think

30:53

unless Apple does it, it's not worth doing it.

30:55

So, you know. - Yeah. But I think that's, that's gonna change, Todd.

30:59

I, I don't see long-term podcast hosts wanting

31:03

to be removed from that discussion, uh, for very long.

31:08

It's clear that podcasting 2.0 has legs now,

31:12

and that the industry is starting to take it seriously.

31:15

- Well, you know, um, good. But we, you know, yeah.

31:18

We, we knew it was gonna take a while. Mm-Hmm.

31:21

<affirmative>. And, and the PSP is by far this, you know,

31:23

super organized group. You know, we meet Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like once a year

31:26

or something, you know, and kind of agree on some things we're gonna do.

31:30

And, you know, this thing with Sam is, you know,

31:32

the next step Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, uh, folks have laid out money

31:36

to build their website, you know, so, you know, there's,

31:39

again, it's under industries do not run on,

31:45

uh, organizations, trade organizations.

31:47

Any organization has to have cash. And, you know, and, and I, and

31:52

- That's always the challenge. - And I don't, and again, and I, again, it's a,

31:56

it's a strategic decision on my part on

31:59

who we give our money to, what value it's gonna bring to the company.

32:03

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And sometimes you have to be there. It's just like going to podcast movement in August.

32:07

We have to be there. We have to be there and wave the flag

32:09

and say, Hey, we're still in business. We're still here, but I maybe

32:12

don't need to go to evolutions. You know, maybe I just need to go to podcasts.

32:17

Maybe I just need to go to the podcast show. Maybe, you know, maybe I do three podcasting events a

32:22

year, and that's it. And then focus on other events that we've been investigating

32:26

that, believe me, attending most of the podcast, uh,

32:31

events are a lot cheaper than a lot of the other

32:36

shows that are out there in the creator space.

32:39

Um, you know, 1, 1, 1 event, we talked to a minimum 10

32:43

by 20 booth, $12,000 just for the booth.

32:48

And Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and that probably covers my whole bill for, um,

32:54

podcasts podcast or podcast evolutions, including hotels, travel, you know,

33:00

so if you're just talking $12,000 for a booth

33:03

and you know that in a high cost area,

33:06

et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it's just like events that we go to,

33:11

we have to be careful on. And again, I think they all bring value.

33:16

- Mm-Hmm. - <affirmative>, you know, but at the same time, my head's down we're busy.

33:22

- Yeah. There's clearly far less events

33:25

going on these days, but, - But, but it's not just events.

33:28

It's business is hard right now.

33:31

- It is very, very - Hard, you know,

33:34

and, uh, in getting information out

33:39

about what you have available is hard.

33:43

Um, right. So

33:46

unless you're spending a hundred thousand dollars in AdWords

33:48

every month, um, Mm-Hmm.

33:51

<affirmative>, which two or three companies are spending, you know, gobs of money

33:55

to get a, you know, a $20 a month hosting customers.

33:59

Um, you - Know, that I don't see it getting any better anytime soon.

34:03

- Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. - I mean, I mean, I think we're talking multiple years

34:08

before things improve, and I don't even know if it's gonna improve at that point.

34:13

So it just depends a lot.

34:16

You know, I think that the podcasting market is in a

34:19

transition right now, and I think it's, it's soft.

34:22

There's no question the, uh,

34:25

companies are not investing money. They're, if anything, they're pulling back

34:29

and cutting expenses. Um, and I don't know.

34:34

I mean, Todd, what are you seeing in the market?

34:37

Is it, is there any kind of a glimmer of kind of, I hate

34:41

to use the word hope here, but, - Uh, uh, 20, 20, 24 is gonna continue to be flat.

34:47

- Yeah. Yeah. I, I tend to have

34:49

that gut feeling too. So we'll - See you, I'll see what happens.

34:52

Um, you know, I look at the, you know,

34:55

are we in the black or are we in the red? And, uh, you know, where, where does that line draw?

35:01

And, uh, yeah. You know, and you know, the quick look is, let's look,

35:06

how much is the checking account, you know, <laugh>, you know, I hate to say it's kinda like that,

35:10

but it is kinda like that. - There's a lot of restructuring with companies, um,

35:15

that are going on now. You know, I mean, it's, people are shuffling the,

35:21

the deck on the boat, you know, the chairs on the deck of a boat.

35:24

You know, it's, it's definitely a transition time

35:28

- In the industry. Well, I, I think what it is, is that

35:32

the listening audience obviously hasn't won anymore.

35:36

They're here, they're hearing Yes. It's still, they're hearing me.

35:38

- Right. It's still growing. And it's, it is remarkable

35:41

that we've reached 95% awareness of what a podcast is.

35:45

- And in - The population, - Sustained superior content will always win the

35:50

day no matter what. The cream will always rise to the top,

35:55

and there'll always be room for anyone that has an idea, has a message.

35:58

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> has a story, has a passion.

36:01

We we're hearing the doors and lights is on for you, not left on is on for you.

36:07

And I, I think it's, uh, it continues

36:10

to be an incredible time to be a podcaster.

36:12

We're, we are closely watching some

36:15

of the stuff in our statistics on what shows are doing.

36:18

And shows are, are doing very well right now from a,

36:22

from a growth standpoint. Those that are consistent putting on a show every week,

36:27

they're doing, at the bare minimum, the stuff that they need

36:30

to do to promote their podcasts, that they're, they're growing.

36:34

And I see very few shows on a, this,

36:38

you know, a downward slope. Most of the shows are, you know, they're, they're up.

36:42

They may not be straight up, but they're, they're up. Right.

36:45

You know, I look at my personal show,

36:47

I look at the Geekness Central, I,

36:50

I'm actually kinda surprised. I've seen growth that show's been flat

36:54

for years maintaining, but I'm actually seeing, you know, a peaks of interest.

36:59

Um, and I don't know, let me, I I,

37:03

I haven't been in our stats in a long time

37:05

because I just don't look.

37:08

I should, but I don't, um, what's going on here?

37:14

Oh, I was pushing <laugh> screen

37:16

was jumping all over the place. And let me, let me look.

37:20

Uh, this show

37:28

I gotta go in and let's see the, see the big number,

37:33

you know, even this show, let's look at the past 90 days.

37:36

What's it been doing the past 90? Yeah.

37:38

Even this show is, is gradually up, not dramatically.

37:43

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's, you know, the, the, we're picking up listeners, um, you know,

37:50

some shows peak more than others.

37:53

Sure. Um, so yeah. And, and it's the same

37:58

- Thing. It's the same thing I see in my YouTube stats Yeah.

38:00

For the show too. It's, so some episodes, like, like,

38:04

I think, um, an episode that we did just on my account, just

38:08

with my version of this show, um,

38:11

I think picked up 4,000 views like

38:13

about a month and a half ago. - Again, you're talking about YouTube. So

38:17

- YouTube only. Yeah, that's just YouTube, right?

38:20

- Yeah. I don't get anywhere that your number, whatever your magic is you're doing over there,

38:24

you paying people to, to play that button or something.

38:27

- <laugh> No, I'm just creating, creating thumbnail artwork

38:30

that's unique for each episode. Well,

38:32

- I've been doing that here as well, so I guess I don't have,

38:36

- But it doesn't sell the episode, Todd, it doesn't sell the episode

38:38

because you're not putting text on it. You're just doing an AI

38:41

- Image. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't have time for the rest of

38:44

that <laugh>. - Well, it's, it's, it's looking at what works

38:49

and what doesn't work. - Well, obviously what I'm doing doesn't work

38:55

- Well. I mean, you have to look at what is working on,

38:58

but on, on, on YouTube if you want

39:01

to expect to succeed over there. - But I'm not a YouTuber, so that's part of it. So,

39:07

- Yeah. But is that because you're not trying to become a YouTuber,

39:09

or, I mean, you see where I'm saying it's a - Age.

39:13

Yeah, but we're, I'm, we're talking to podcasters. We're not talking to YouTubers, so

39:17

- Yeah. But we're on YouTube right now. - I know, but we're talking to podcasters.

39:21

99% of this audience is listening to the show.

39:24

- Why can't we talk to YouTube too, Todd? I don't understand

39:27

- Why we can't, but you know, they don't subscribe.

39:30

Make 'em po make 'em - Subscribe.

39:32

Yeah, they do. I've got one episode of the show that was watched 4,000 times on, on

39:36

- YouTube. My, did you tell Off, off on my account? Did you tell, did you tell 'em to come over

39:39

and subscribe to the podcast? Uh, probably not. You'd probably

39:43

tell 'em to like, and subscribe. - Well, no, Todd, I'm publishing this show, so what we need

39:47

to do is tell people in this show to go over

39:51

and subscribe to our - Podcast.

39:53

Okay. There you go. Podcast. So those of you watching on YouTube, come over to new media show.com

39:56

and follow the podcast. - <laugh>, you thought that I, I I should go in

40:00

and add content to our show? Uh, - No, from the show, but I guess we guess we

40:04

gotta tell the YouTubers to come over. We gotta, you know, yeah.

40:06

- We do it. It's part of accommodating all of the, the,

40:11

the listening platforms that we have to the show. Like e even X, right? Yeah.

40:14

I mean, we're here on, on X as well.

40:17

I, I'm, I'm, I'm assuming so. Yeah.

40:20

Um, so, you know, speaking to that audience is a little bit different too.

40:23

So that's kind of the transition I'm trying to make Todd,

40:26

with my work and what I'm doing for Streamy Yard

40:28

and whatever, is trying to think holistically about this ecosystem

40:33

of content creation and being a content creator that's creating content for all

40:37

of these platforms as best as I can, and trying to optimize those experiences to find out, well,

40:42

what works and what doesn't work. And it even means creating short content

40:46

shorts from this stuff. Um, which I could do with some of our past episodes

40:51

that were run through Streamy Yard. Yeah. Um, so I could do shorts and I've done a few, we'll

40:57

- Have that, I have that capability at Blueberry soon,

40:59

so be able to do that. Yeah. And if,

41:02

- Yeah. Yeah. Are you creating any kind of Yeah, I, I thought

41:06

that you were creating, um, - We're creating episode art.

41:10

Uh, yeah, we are, right? Yeah. - So just create a separate, uh, prompt in there

41:15

to generate a thumbnail for, - Uh, I do YouTube art, I do Oh,

41:20

- For YouTube art. - Yeah. But I, I, not in my ai I do that separately.

41:26

- Okay. - But the u the YouTube art I

41:29

get, I'm never happy with. So, you know, the last,

41:34

my last podcast episode wasn't too bad.

41:37

Um, I was talking about the American Privacy Right Act

41:41

that trying to get through Congress and they put a whole bunch of text on the thing

41:44

that's half of it spelled wrong. So, you know, that's, that's part of the challenge too.

41:50

- Yeah. Streamy Yard just added a new feature in the

41:53

platform that, that, that allows you to create your thumbnail art for YouTube or,

42:00

or the wide format art - Know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

42:02

- Um, and, and doing it in the tool using the graphics

42:06

and the, the images from the show.

42:10

Um, so it's usually very simple art.

42:12

It, it basically would be like both of our pictures

42:16

superimposed on it with big, bold letters

42:19

and text across the image itself, and that sells the episode. And that, that done,

42:25

- I guess I don't watch YouTube. I guess I don't watch YouTube that way. I don't look at art.

42:28

I look at the title of the episode. Well, Todd,

42:32

- It's no different than podcasting. I - Feel it's, but if I'm doing that on,

42:36

when I look at the art only on YouTube,

42:38

it's always clickbait makes me feel clickbait.

42:41

I let me read the title. And usually that's clickbait too. So.

42:47

- Well, certainly some of it is, yeah, I agree with - You. The majority of it.

42:51

- Well, I think increasingly what we're gonna see happen is episode level art

42:54

for podcasts are gonna be more

42:57

and more like what you see on YouTube. So I think that's, that's the ultimate direction of that, is

43:03

that the episode level art is going to be more sell, sell,

43:07

sell, sell, what the, what the episode is about.

43:10

It's the same thing with the importance of your episode titles, is

43:14

that it is gotta have important keywords that sell the episode.

43:17

It can't just be episode 2 0 3,

43:21

- You know? Well, you look at the art that I've been coming up with

43:23

for, for this show. Yeah. But that's

43:27

- Not, that's not really selling the content

43:30

of the show, though, is the problem. - Well, again, I'm not, I'm not a, again, I,

43:36

I think a lot of that's Click Beatty. That to me does not interest me to listen

43:41

to an episode when it looks click Beatty.

43:44

So if someone can figure out how to make it so it's not clickbait, then well, Todd,

43:50

- Todd clickbait, I think, I think what we have

43:53

to do is get really clear on what you mean by clickbait.

43:56

'cause clickbait is, is some sort of a falsification

44:01

of the content that's enclosed in the content, right?

44:04

- It's, it's, it's a, it, most of the stuff is, oh,

44:08

we drove off a cliff. Well, yeah, they drove down a little hill,

44:12

or, you know, whatever it may be. So,

44:16

- So it's an exaggeration is what - You're saying.

44:18

Yeah, it's exaggeration or it gives me anxiousness to want to, to see what happened.

44:25

- Well, I think the goal of thumbnail art on, uh,

44:29

on YouTube is to get people's attention, obviously.

44:32

- Yeah. Well, one - Thing, what are key, key things,

44:35

simple messages you can make visually to people

44:38

to entice them to click to watch your video?

44:41

- The response I've gotten, that's the goal of it. The response I've gotten recently is the newsletter I used

44:45

to send out was boring and bland.

44:49

And the newsletter I send out now on every episode is

44:53

actually got people reading it because it's actual true substance of what is in the content

44:59

without having to be flamboyant and say, I drove off a cliff. So, yeah,

45:04

- I don't think you have to do that, Todd, but I also see a lot of thumbnails that are created that,

45:09

um, do a much better job of selling a aspect

45:13

of the content that is enticing - Enough to people to listen.

45:16

You have, you have to have some expertise

45:20

in being able to do that. That is, that is not all going to be, I think's,

45:23

- A skill that you develop based on practice

45:26

and seeing what other people are doing that is working. Yeah.

45:28

- Well, I I'm not a big fan again, unless,

45:32

unless AI's creating, I can only draw stick figures.

45:36

So - <laugh>, there's entire, uh,

45:39

old YouTube videos out there talking just about how to create

45:44

- YouTube. Oh, I, I understand it. And that's, I don't have,

45:47

but the thing is, how long do you spend putting that together?

45:49

How much time do you spend putting together that arc?

45:54

- Well, that's why Streamy Yard built this tool into their

45:57

- Platform well before that. And not everyone uses Streamy Yard. It's not that.

46:00

If you're going to, it's not that hard. If you're live streaming

46:02

and not using Streamy Yard, how long does it take you

46:05

and what you gotta have Photoshop and, Hey, Todd,

46:09

- I can't, I mean, I can't just give you a, a fixed number.

46:11

- Does it, does it take you 20 minutes, 30 minutes? Uh, how long does it take to come up with your art?

46:17

- I think it depends on how you create the art, how long it takes.

46:19

Because I mean, Todd, I'm being totally honest, but

46:22

- I'm, I'm, - I'm being totally truthful here. Just go to Canva. Canva has all those templates

46:27

- In there. I understand that, but the majority of you - Just modify it and save it.

46:30

- The majority of podcasters don't have time.

46:34

- Yeah, Todd. Yeah, they - Do.

46:36

They don't. So they don't, they don't, they tell me they don't, they don't

46:40

- Time, they don't have time to create, um, episode level art.

46:43

- They, they haven't had time to create good show notes.

46:47

They don't have time to create chapters.

46:50

They don't have time to create episodes.

46:52

They have lives, they have wives, they have girlfriends and boyfriends.

46:56

They don't have time. This is why we did what we did

46:59

to give them some of the time back. Is it perfect? No. Does it improve the product output? Yes.

47:06

Will it get better over time? Sure. But majority of podcasters barely have enough time

47:12

to record their episode, write a title

47:15

and one paragraph for their episode and publish.

47:19

- Okay. - So - That's a pretty low bar of, - That's

47:26

- Aspiration though. - Okay. I have looked at thousands and thousands. Oh,

47:32

- I'm not, I'm not, okay. I'm not really disputing you.

47:34

I, I know that there are podcasters out there that think about this, like l like that.

47:38

But I'm also saying that, that there's many podcasters

47:40

that currently use Canva right now. Sure. And they, they will use Canva

47:44

to generate episode level art, square episode level art for their podcast.

47:49

- I believe that. But I - Bet you all they have to do is change the setting of Canva to make it widescreen,

47:55

use the same layout or, or, or the same content

47:58

and just save it as a widescreen version of their episode level.

48:01

- If they can afford Canva in these types times.

48:05

- Many people use Canva, - Though, I understand.

48:07

But a majority of podcasters a large number.

48:13

Again, it takes time. Do you have time to do this?

48:16

Most podcasters don't have time. You're probably talking 5%.

48:20

I, we, we'll have to start looking at the,

48:24

at the episode art for shows

48:27

and get, don't look at the top 100.

48:30

'cause they have staffs, they have teams go deeper in the stack

48:33

and start looking at how many people are doing episode art.

48:36

And I think you'll be shocked to find it's not that many

48:39

because they just - Don't.

48:42

Well, the question isn't, isn't to cater to the lowest common denominator,

48:45

but cater to what is going to help that podcaster grow.

48:49

- I reach - The success that they wanna reach.

48:51

- Right. Exactly. Why we've done what we've done. Because when I hear majority,

48:57

- Your messaging is saying is

48:59

that everybody is doing like the base minimum.

49:02

- They are majority are doing the base minimum. But

49:06

- I, I don't think that's what we should be

49:08

- Communicating people. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just telling you,

49:10

that's why I asked you how much time you were spending creating this

49:15

fabulous art that you're putting up. I'm not, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I

49:19

- Created - Okay, - Todd, I created basic templates

49:22

that I just reuse over and over again. - Okay. I'm, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

49:27

- I know you are. Okay. And it's, and it's fine.

49:30

And I think it's, I think we have to be careful

49:32

that we're not encouraging people to

49:36

just do the bare minimum. No, I'm - Not.

49:39

But I'm just telling you the reality of what's happening

49:41

with a podcaster that's in the trenches doing their show.

49:46

- Right. No, I'm, I'm sure there are folks out there like that.

49:49

Todd. I'm not, I'm not really arguing that.

49:51

I'm just saying, well, what's the best practice? Well, okay, best practice is to create Sure.

49:55

- The best practices. - If you're doing a YouTube video,

49:59

your best practice is to create something that's more engaging and not just an AI generated image.

50:05

- I know, but we're talking about podcasters here. We're talking about episode art.

50:09

- We should, I know, but there are podcasters that are doing YouTube too, Todd.

50:12

Not, I mean, it's, well, it's growing,

50:15

so I would just accept that. But

50:17

- They're not Okay. Happening. There are, but they aren't seeing any traction

50:22

- Because maybe they're not doing these things. Todd,

50:25

- I think - You, just, like with us with this show,

50:28

we're not supporting custom thumbnails

50:31

with our show in YouTube.

50:34

So I'm doing it off of my account. - I do it off my, - But I'm seeing

50:37

results off of my account. I'm not - Doing - Seeing results off of your account.

50:41

- I'm doing the same thing. - <laugh>, you're not,

50:43

you're doing completely different album art than I am. Or

50:47

- Then send me over your album mart. I'll use yours. Happy to take it.

50:51

- <laugh>. I have - Once or

50:53

- Twice. Sometimes. I You haven't used it though.

50:55

- Well, I'll use it if you send it to me. I very rarely get it from you.

51:00

- Okay. - All right. Do you wanna do custom? I'll, I'll put your, but you gotta send it right away.

51:04

It can't be two days from now. <laugh>

51:07

- Can't be Oh, after the fact. You mean, - Because this, this show goes up immediately <laugh>,

51:13

you know, at least within an hour. - Okay. - Because again, I don't have time either.

51:19

- Right. - You know, that's, again, it's, that's the thing

51:22

that we're, look, and over time these templates will get

51:25

better and having the ability, the thing is,

51:28

I don't wanna pay for Canva. I don't want to, I don't wanna pay for some

51:31

of these other platforms out there. - But Todd, not everything is about what you do <laugh>.

51:35

- Okay, I understand that. But here's what I, if I'm not, okay, Rob, please understand.

51:41

- Yeah. - If I'm not trying to be,

51:45

I could buy Canva, I can buy Headliner,

51:48

I can buy all these things, I can put

51:50

that on my expense report, no issue.

51:53

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, the average podcaster does not have

51:57

the budget to have three

51:59

or four tools to help 'em with three or four things that they wanna do to grow their show.

52:04

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So in order to walk the walk and talk the talk, I have to use what I can do

52:11

without having a whole bunch of fancy stuff.

52:15

Because I don't want to have to tell a podcaster, you have

52:18

to have Canva, you have to have headliner,

52:21

you have to have this. And - Next thing, well then don't,

52:23

don't tell 'em that they have to. Well just say it's an option.

52:28

- We tell 'em it's an option. But the problem is, Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> The problem is,

52:32

again, if I'm gonna walk the walk and talk, the talk I have to be able to do with what I have,

52:38

and this is one of the reasons why we provided what we

52:40

provided, so that those that don't have the extra $20 a month for Canva,

52:45

the extra $20 for a headliner, the extra $20 for some, or 30

52:49

or $40 from some AI program, the extra $50

52:53

or something for a social media platform,

52:56

you know, this stuff adds up. The next thing they're like, well, I'm gonna go use Anchor

53:01

'cause it's free because I have to use all this other stuff.

53:05

I can't afford to pay my podcast host anymore.

53:08

So I have to be able to provide tools

53:11

and services that allow them to use internally the stuff

53:14

that we're producing to save them money. 'cause more than 50% of the folks

53:19

that are creating podcasts today, they don't care about making money.

53:23

So they're budget conscious. So again, I'm not saying you shouldn't use these tools.

53:31

My social media team uses Canva, you know? Right.

53:36

So again, - Millions of other people around.

53:39

- Right. But, - But it's not the only tool that's out there. That's

53:42

- True. There's, but they all cost money.

53:47

- Sure. I mean, people have to have some sort of a

53:52

image software if they wanna do anything with images. Sure. So,

53:55

- Yeah. Well, there's free tools out there. You can do image manipulation.

53:59

So yeah, you don't need to have a Photoshop subscription

54:05

to edit and an image. There's lots of stuff out there.

54:08

But again, it all depends on, you know,

54:13

if I'm not down in the trenches doing this

54:15

and I'm worried about podcasting, I'm not worried about, worried about YouTube.

54:19

So - Yeah, I mean, it's, I just see video get taking a

54:28

bigger and bigger chunk out - Of I the people aren't, people only have limited time

54:32

to watch video. The beauty bubble says, Todd, you have to play the game.

54:36

I, I understand. She says, you can update

54:40

any feature on YouTube at any time.

54:42

That's true. I love this show more and more.

54:45

It's taken me a few years, but these two are growing on me.

54:49

<laugh>. - So who said that? - That said,

54:53

that was from a beauty bubble on YouTube. Oh,

54:56

- <laugh>. Oh, okay. On YouTube. Right.

54:59

- On YouTube. And then I haven't even looked at Facebook.

55:01

Stephanie says, I, if you want to create video art,

55:05

use a template and change the title of the episode.

55:07

Yep, that's fine too. I agree. Yeah.

55:09

<laugh>, Canva isn't fancy. And it is, and it is fairly inexpensive.

55:15

So what does Canva cost a month? 20 bucks. - Mm. I think you can get a subscription for less than that,

55:21

but yeah, I'm not sure off the top of my head. Yeah,

55:24

- Canva, let's look at pricing, uh, pans and pricing.

55:33

- The big advantage of Canva is it gives you hundreds

55:36

of input options. - Oh, I, oh, I understand that.

55:40

- And, and then you can change the color,

55:43

you can change the specific layout.

55:45

You can make it transparent. You can make a video out of it.

55:49

Yeah. You can do all sorts of - It.

55:51

It's, it's a, it's a tool for dummies like me that don't know how to make graphic card.

55:54

So they don't even put their pricing on the page.

55:57

See, okay, here it is. Oh, they do have a free version.

56:01

And $119 a year for one person if you, if you buy a year.

56:05

So again, if I've got - No, that's like, well, that's like $10 a month.

56:10

- So if I have podcasters are paying $12 a month

56:12

for hosting, or $20 a month for hosting,

56:16

now they're at $240 for just a single tool. So, again, which

56:21

- You can use it for so many different things, Todd, that that's the,

56:24

- But the majority of people that are creating content are in a single channel.

56:28

You know, they're not, they're maybe on Instagram

56:30

or, you know, they're, they're not in,

56:32

they're not on five different social media platforms.

56:35

And again, they don't have time. This is what we keep hearing from podcasts.

56:38

I don't have time to create clips.

56:40

They don't have time to create, uh, templates.

56:43

I don't have just the simple fact, I guarantee you,

56:46

if you went into Canva to create, uh, album art, episode art

56:50

for this show, you'll spend at least 15 minutes in there.

56:53

At least 15. Getting

56:55

- Well, especially the first time that you go in and use it.

56:59

I mean, I use templates over and over and over and over

57:01

and over again, and it's really quick. So, - So let's say 10 minutes each time.

57:06

10 minutes times, you know, well, - You're probably gonna spend probably a half an hour,

57:09

the first template or the first setup or,

57:12

or more depending on how much research that you want to do

57:15

to find the right template. And then you, you need to get into that template,

57:19

make some customizations to it, make some edits,

57:22

and then save that. And then you make it to create your first

57:26

episode version, right.

57:29

And, and then from that point, you just reuse it over and over again. Right.

57:33

- But then it gets boring. You are using the same template over

57:35

and over again. It becomes, - Well, you make slight adjustments to it,

57:39

but you don't, I mean, it doesn't have to be perfect. Like a, like let's say you do an interview show,

57:44

you just trade out who your interview guest is on there

57:46

and maybe adjust the colors a little bit and then save it, put it out.

57:50

Or actually, I use it to create, um,

57:54

my thumbnail and then I create a countdown clock

57:57

for my video show, um, that actually counts down right on the image.

58:01

So I convert that thumbnail into a video file. Right?

58:05

- Right. - And then I have a countdown clock, like a 15 second countdown clock that I can play

58:09

before the beginning of my live show. Right. - But again, I think it,

58:13

if you look at all this stuff, Mm-Hmm.

58:16

<affirmative>, you and I have budgets. We can add all this stuff.

58:21

And there is, part of my strategy is talking to podcasters.

58:26

Time and money. Time and money. Time and money.

58:30

How do you save me time? How do you save me money?

58:34

And because I don't have time, and sometimes I have money, sometimes I don't.

58:40

So that's part of it. When you ask someone to create a great title, great episode,

58:48

art, excuse me, episode text,

58:52

and all the other things that should go into a package of an episode.

58:56

- Mm-Hmm. - <affirmative>. Um, that's a lot of time.

59:01

So, - Yeah.

59:04

- You know, I used to, it takes - Time to be a podcaster Todd. It's not like, I mean, I mean,

59:07

at some point, maybe it'll be easier. I'm not sure. Well,

59:10

- That's one of my goals is to make it easier

59:13

and maybe it's not perfect product, but in the end, what it really boils down to is,

59:19

is over the years, I would look at,

59:22

and it's still the <laugh>, I look at individual's podcast websites.

59:26

We can go into that for a whole hour and a half. But again,

59:31

just getting the feel from people

59:33

and them telling me where their pain points are.

59:39

Most, most podcasters, even right now when I tell 'em, no,

59:43

you can do episode art. They're like, what? Huh?

59:47

- Well, a Apple finally supports their own tag

59:50

- <laugh>, you know? So they're what, you know, right.

59:53

Well, I use such and such app and there's no episode art there.

59:56

So, you know, it's on the app's fault too,

59:59

for not surfacing this, this episode art.

1:00:03

And maybe, maybe now, maybe these other apps will follow

1:00:06

through and do what, you know, apple finally did.

1:00:09

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But don't get me wrong. I understand where you're coming from, Rob, and just it's,

1:00:13

- Well, I'm just seeing my own efforts

1:00:16

generating more results. Sure, sure. And so it's just a matter of, you know,

1:00:21

I'm trying to get better at my thumbnail - Or for, and, and whereas I was just saying, my effort

1:00:27

where I've been putting effort on my audio podcast is

1:00:31

seeing results. And I'm not incurring time.

1:00:36

It's not perfect, but I'm not incurring a, a time deficit.

1:00:41

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I get done with this show and about an hour when this show's been

1:00:45

published, I'm, I'm out the door. Same thing with my other show.

1:00:49

I'm not spending an extra 45 minutes trying

1:00:52

to monkey around get something. Right. Sometimes it's just good enough.

1:00:57

And over time it'll get better. And then, and then guess what's the most important part?

1:01:03

We can do all we want with episode art. We do all we want with show notes.

1:01:07

And it really still boils back down to good content.

1:01:12

But if we can give people the time to focus on creating better content.

1:01:18

- Right. I think that the challenge though, that a lot of podcasters have right now is standing out, uh, and,

1:01:24

and being found, you know,

1:01:26

I think is is one of the biggest things. - It's always been in, but again, not for every podcaster is

1:01:33

that an issue being found is not the problem.

1:01:36

It's being, the show is being found as easy.

1:01:41

It's having the episode be found. - Right. And, and I do think at episode level R

1:01:50

does give a, an opportunity to potentially grow

1:01:54

because that, just like what we're seeing with U YouTube,

1:01:59

YouTube is very much a episode driven

1:02:02

- Platform. When was the last time you grabbed your phone and search for a new show with your phone

1:02:08

- Search for what new show? What type of new

1:02:10

- Show? Any, any podcast. When was the last time you searched

1:02:13

for a new podcast that you were looking for on your phone?

1:02:18

- Uh, that's pretty much the only way I do it.

1:02:22

- You search for new podcasts via your phone?

1:02:25

- Sure. - I never have - In the browser, in the,

1:02:29

- The only way I find new shows is when people recommend new shows to me

1:02:33

- Or in the Apple podcast app or an, those kind of things.

1:02:37

I'll, I'll look at the list of

1:02:41

featured shows that are in there. Yeah, of course. I've got a different interest in

1:02:44

probably a Joe blowout there. That's, yeah. - I, in the b industry,

1:02:48

and again, I'm a big Google guy, so I'm look, and again, I don't, I,

1:02:52

I very rarely add new shows to listen to.

1:02:54

And it's usually done through a recommendation.

1:02:57

So again, yeah. - And most, most people today, um,

1:03:01

their phone is their computer. So you know, it, this option that, that somehow we're,

1:03:08

we're thinking that people are still using laptops or desktops.

1:03:11

They they are, but that's not their primary device anymore.

1:03:15

- Well, it's my primary device. I'm on the stupid thing. I know. But that

1:03:19

- Doesn't mean that it's, - If you have a job,

1:03:21

you're not 3-year-old or a 30-year-old, if you a job,

1:03:24

you are not working without being on a computer <laugh>.

1:03:30

Unless, unless you're in industry and you're using your hands.

1:03:33

And that's a whole different situation. - I would say mobile phones is the number one access device

1:03:39

now for all these things. Problem. - Yeah. Maybe, you know, - Maybe

1:03:44

- You're not, you're not doing, you're not doing a lot of,

1:03:47

- You just have to go look at the, uh, well, - I, for consumption, yeah.

1:03:50

But I'm looking for new shows. I, again, I'm not using my phone to go look for new shows.

1:03:55

I'm not even using my web browser.

1:03:59

- Okay. - So again, how are you,

1:04:01

how are shows being discovered? I think it still remains word of mouth to be number one. Oh,

1:04:07

- Well, yeah. As far as the sharing part.

1:04:09

- Yeah. 'cause you said people are having a hard time being discovered.

1:04:11

And I, again, I think it's about getting your

1:04:14

- Audience. Well, I think there's a lot of, yeah. I think if you look at, uh, even the Apple Podcast

1:04:20

directory catalog, it's cluttered with a bunch of,

1:04:22

uh, archive shows. Right? So even if you went in there searching for something,

1:04:27

you're gonna come up with a search result that is flooded

1:04:30

with shows that are

1:04:32

- The three point - Most, the shows that you show up on the list are gonna be shows

1:04:36

that maybe published an episode a year ago or something

1:04:39

- Like that. Yeah. The 3.4 million shows that haven't produced a new episode in the last

1:04:42

- Right. Of which there's only maybe three or 400,000 Yeah.

1:04:45

That have published an episode in the last 90 days. Yeah.

1:04:47

Right. So that's the challenge that I think that exists

1:04:53

for current podcasters is just the being buried in the,

1:04:58

the kind of yellow pages of

1:05:02

- Podcasts. Right. Hey, Ted, uh, why don't you tell the team

1:05:04

to start suppressing shows that haven't produced a new episode in the last

1:05:07

60 days? Yeah. I think - That would be a terrific thing for them to do, is

1:05:12

to only surface shows that are,

1:05:15

have published an episode in the last, you know,

1:05:17

30 days or something like that. Right.

1:05:20

- Yeah. That's, that would, that would help at least on Apple Podcast,

1:05:24

- That I would also, if Ted, if you're listening,

1:05:27

I would love to see the prioritization

1:05:29

around video podcasts be, be an option again in there too.

1:05:33

Like a, like it used to be where it used to throttle

1:05:35

between audio and video, and so you could see what's available on the video side

1:05:40

versus the audio side. I don't know why that that was stripped out of the ui, but

1:05:46

- I, you know, what's interesting is the,

1:05:51

how can I say this about giving it away, I guess I,

1:05:53

I can say we've been talking to a lot

1:05:58

of video

1:06:01

first Mm-Hmm.

1:06:03

<affirmative> platforms. I guess we'll leave it at

1:06:06

that. And, uh, video

1:06:08

- First platforms. I'm trying to think,

1:06:10

- Uh, video first - Consumption side. - Yeah. You know, someone consumption, you,

1:06:13

let's say someone, you know, you got, you know, five shows

1:06:16

and you're video first. Um, they are more now looking to

1:06:23

be off YouTube, um, building their own brand,

1:06:27

building their own destinations, uh, just

1:06:30

because the YouTube algorithms that got them buried,

1:06:34

they can't be found and they want, uh,

1:06:37

an accompanying audio podcast and everything else that goes along with it.

1:06:42

Um, sure. And they, and, and,

1:06:45

and they're finally now waking up that, yes,

1:06:48

video podcasting is actually a thing, um, that, you know,

1:06:52

you can actually have a true video podcast in an RSS speed,

1:06:56

which people are waking up to. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So I, I think we'll see, um,

1:07:02

a growth in that regard, um,

1:07:06

because there's a lot of people that don't trust YouTube,

1:07:09

uh, and a lot of networks that are pretty great content

1:07:12

that has no reason to ever think about being de platform,

1:07:16

nor should it, because it's not far right far left.

1:07:19

It's not any that, it's, it's good content,

1:07:22

but Google is king makers

1:07:25

and Google decides who wins and who loses.

1:07:28

And it's a, it's that way on YouTube.

1:07:30

You can have the best content in the world and YouTube, if they don't surface it,

1:07:34

you will never be found. Therein lies the problem.

1:07:37

I don't care what search you do, it'll be buried in search.

1:07:41

It'll be 25 pages deep, and the content will never be found.

1:07:45

They are true king makers, and you can, I can absolutely guarantee you they're putting

1:07:50

the thumb on the scale. - Sure. - So brands are now not

1:07:56

liking having the thumb put on the scale

1:07:58

and are looking at ways to take things back.

1:08:02

Same thing with book authors. They're all, they're saying, Hey, you know,

1:08:06

there's too much control on these big platforms.

1:08:09

Let me start, is it too late? Maybe.

1:08:13

But it goes back to my saying, I've been saying for years

1:08:16

that you never build your castle on rented land.

1:08:20

And people are starting to figure out, even though web two,

1:08:23

Web3, whatever we're on now, that Yeah, maybe, maybe, uh,

1:08:28

maybe I should bring this home. - Well, Todd, I think you raise,

1:08:33

raise an intriguing point from the standpoint that is, is

1:08:37

beyond just talking about YouTube, it's,

1:08:40

it's video content just generally, and,

1:08:44

and its opportunity as you look to the future, I think, um,

1:08:47

video publishing to communities, um, online communities,

1:08:52

um, that are siloed, uh, may be

1:08:54

where the future looks like. Um - Huh.

1:08:57

What are you saying? - Well, taking your show

1:09:00

and publishing it to a community that,

1:09:04

that supports you in like a Kajabi platform,

1:09:07

- Or again, you're building on someone else's

1:09:09

- Platform Yeah. Or super wave type platform that is being built

1:09:12

by, by Streamy Yard. - Again, you're building it on someone else's platform.

1:09:16

You're not building it on your.com. This is, well,

1:09:18

- I mean, no, it's not to say that you don't wanna do

1:09:21

that off, off your own website. I think you do. So I think

1:09:24

that is the other part of this too. But if you wanna build a community outside of YouTube,

1:09:30

specifically YouTube, right? There's rumble, there's, I guess there's locals, there's,

1:09:36

um, discord, there's all sorts of platforms out there

1:09:39

that are alternatives. Now, they're not perfect. Right.

1:09:42

- But you don't have, we, I'm streaming right now, uh,

1:09:46

in new podcasting apps without Rumble, without YouTube.

1:09:50

Right. So, - No, I think that that's fantastic too.

1:09:55

And so I think starting to think beyond YouTube, I,

1:09:58

I think is the right way to start thinking.

1:10:01

- And, you know, obviously we use the YouTube embed on our

1:10:04

live page, but I probably should switch that out and put a, put our HLS streamer up there so that it's Sure.

1:10:10

You know, I could do that. Um, and as people become more savvy

1:10:15

and understand what is potentially happening, I, again, I'm,

1:10:20

I, I think in the end, open RSS wins, wins, wins.

1:10:23

And it's because again, it's open, not siloed. Yeah.

1:10:28

- I'm a, I'm a huge fan of that. I, that's what I'm doing for the other show that I do.

1:10:33

Right. Um, and as well as this show is a video podcast too.

1:10:39

I just don't know why Apple depreciated that so much

1:10:42

- Side. I think it, I think it's pretty simple. I don't use,

1:10:46

at least currently. - Well, it's simple, but it may not be

1:10:50

be the right thing. Right. - One thing I will say is I don't watch YouTube on my phone.

1:10:56

I don't, I don't watch YouTube on my,

1:10:58

I watch YouTube on my tv. - I do both, but - Okay. Yeah.

1:11:02

I, I don't, because I'm, I'm in the, I live in the country

1:11:05

and barely half the times it won't play if I'm not on wifi.

1:11:12

If the, if I watch YouTube at home

1:11:16

on a television, then when I'm using my

1:11:21

phone to listen to content, listen,

1:11:25

I'm not watching content. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and YouTube

1:11:27

admitted it at their own thing. They're, they're astonished by the growth of YouTube too.

1:11:31

The number of people watching YouTube on tv. Well, every, every TV that's being sold today has YouTube on

1:11:37

it as a, as a access thing. There's nothing

1:11:39

- Yeah. Because they're all smart. There's smart TVs,

1:11:41

or they're Rokus or - They're, there's nothing for podcasts on the tv.

1:11:45

So where do I consume the pod tv? Mm-Hmm.

1:11:48

<affirmative>, what happened? I'm just hearing a, something just break.

1:11:53

Hmm. I just had, I just had a tone change in my ear.

1:11:59

Um, so I think that

1:12:03

be probably the reason Apple did that is they know that most

1:12:06

of the people are listening with this face down, um,

1:12:09

in the car, in a pocket, um, using CarPlay.

1:12:14

I use CarPlay. I, the only thing I use in CarPlay is the,

1:12:18

uh, the maps and the podcast app.

1:12:22

Actually, I use the Fountain app in CarPlay. - Mm-Hmm. - <affirmative>. So I

1:12:29

think people probably don't watch a lot of podcasts on,

1:12:34

they're just so used to listening to podcasts.

1:12:36

They don't look at the screen. So, Mm-Hmm.

1:12:39

<affirmative>, I, I, that's probably why they had the stats on it.

1:12:43

There was a, and probably not too many people were doing

1:12:45

video podcasts for about 10 years. - Yeah. I just did a, I just did a lookup on

1:12:55

video consumption on mobile phones. It says, according to Y's media, 57 to 75%

1:13:01

of global video is watched on mobile devices.

1:13:04

- Now, here's another reason for that. Mm-Hmm.

1:13:06

<affirmative> not, I don't doubt that statistic at all, but if you go into any foreign country,

1:13:13

most people do not actually have connected TVs.

1:13:18

Because if you are on a data outside the United States,

1:13:22

and I will say, not necessarily in Europe,

1:13:25

but if you get into Asia, people are paying for their

1:13:30

mobile either through load with sometimes called peso wifi.

1:13:34

They go pay a machine and get wifi for six hours.

1:13:38

So of course, this is their consumption device out largely

1:13:42

outside the United States. They're not watching.

1:13:45

- Yeah. That's, that's, that's the number that it shows here.

1:13:48

57 to 75% of global video is watched on mobile devices.

1:13:52

I, it says in, in the United States, it's 70%

1:13:56

of digital video audience prefer watching on their smartphones.

1:13:59

- That's amazing. I I don't watch video on my phone.

1:14:02

- It says only 59% prefer to watch on smart TVs.

1:14:07

- Yeah. I don't, I don't, that I don't understand either.

1:14:10

But I guess guess if you're, you know, if you're younger

1:14:13

and you don't have enough, maybe you're in a, maybe you don't ha, maybe you're still living at home.

1:14:17

You don't have a TV in the bedroom, uh,

1:14:19

you're watching a tablet or something. So Yeah, there's a changing demographic.

1:14:23

So I guess, you know, because I have a, you know,

1:14:26

a 50 inch TV or whatever it is in my living room, you know,

1:14:28

that's a place where I plop down and watch videos

1:14:31

because I just, I get wonder how that spec runs

1:14:34

as you get older, <laugh>

1:14:37

- Well, I, I mean this, this,

1:14:40

this percentage follows my consumption. I mean, I think I do consume more content on my,

1:14:45

on my smartphone, but 60%, um, on my smart TV too,

1:14:50

I've got, I think I've got four smart TVs in the house. So,

1:14:54

- But I, I, again, I don't watch videos on,

1:14:57

if I do, it's a reel. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that's,

1:15:01

that's the only thing I probably watch. Or maybe a TikTok. Yeah. So, but I don't watch Yeah.

1:15:05

YouTube on my phone - Phone.

1:15:09

Right, right. But you know, increasingly you pop up the YouTube app

1:15:13

and it's, it's gonna present you with shorts. So

1:15:16

- Yeah. I don't watch shorts on YouTube, so matter of fact, it's the same. I avoid them.

1:15:22

- It's the same kind of content. <laugh>. - Well, again, I avoid them, so, okay.

1:15:28

- There's a difference in the content between - YouTube shorts and Oh, yeah, absolutely.

1:15:31

TikTok, TikTok shorts completely. Yeah.

1:15:34

Usually in YouTube, it's shorts that are associated with a channel.

1:15:38

And I only follow x number of YouTube channels on TikTok.

1:15:42

I get this never ending flow of people that I can follow.

1:15:46

That's the main difference. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. - Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. - And Facebook feeds me just junk.

1:15:51

Facebook shorts are horrible. Horrible.

1:15:56

So - Yeah, - Again, we're not, we're not,

1:15:59

we're not doing shorts. This is a, this is a podcast focused show.

1:16:05

You really drank the Kool-Aid, Rob on YouTube?

1:16:09

- No, it's about online video. It's not about, it's really not about YouTube.

1:16:14

It's just that YouTube is the number one

1:16:17

platform for video. Yeah, - Of course.

1:16:20

For video. It is, it's true. Right, - Right.

1:16:22

And they, they have been embracing podcasts, um,

1:16:27

in, in their limited way that they have

1:16:30

- No, they, they're embracing YouTube channels in their way

1:16:34

- Labeled as a podcast. - Labeled as a podcast. Right. Yeah. Don't give them credit.

1:16:38

Don't give them credit for something they haven't

1:16:41

done successfully yet. - Well, they accomplished what they wanted to accomplish.

1:16:46

- Right. They, they, they, they accomplished their mission.

1:16:50

- Right. Which, that's what, that's what YouTube does.

1:16:53

- And, and meanwhile, for the first time in ever,

1:16:56

we hear podcasters crying,

1:17:00

because guess what? They figured out. They control the, the channel.

1:17:05

They control it.

1:17:09

- They control what channel - Everything.

1:17:11

They, they control the a algorithm. They control who gets surfaced. They control YouTube.

1:17:16

- Oh, you're talking about being a podcast? Is that what you're saying? - Yeah. The podcasters are complaining about YouTube

1:17:20

because they have no control over their destiny over there.

1:17:26

YouTube is a king maker, and you go to the podcast section,

1:17:31

it only lists the most popular shows.

1:17:35

You know, again, for the average podcaster,

1:17:37

YouTube has done nothing for those

1:17:42

that have great audiences and big audiences already.

1:17:45

Yep. They've done good. But when you have big companies

1:17:49

that have put a lot of money, that have had great success in podcasting

1:17:53

and getting no traction in YouTube, there is a reason for that.

1:17:57

- I don't believe that you can buy placement in,

1:18:00

in, in YouTube's algorithm. No, - You cannot.

1:18:03

Of course not. You can't - Buy. So it's an earned place in the algorithm.

1:18:05

- No, it is a selected, they are king makers. They,

1:18:09

- No, it's an algorithmic thing. - It's not. Okay. Don't.

1:18:13

If you believe that, if you believe that all the shows

1:18:16

that are listed in the podcast section of the YouTube app is based on algorithm.

1:18:21

Come on. Those have been,

1:18:23

why wouldn't it be Those have been, those have been cherry picked. - Yeah. But why, why wouldn't it be if they've, they've

1:18:31

leveraged that algorithm to do what they want it to do?

1:18:34

- Well, they've leveraged it to do what exactly what they wanna do.

1:18:37

You will put they, they select who's in that list.

1:18:40

- Who's they? Todd - YouTube. - Who's YouTube? - YouTube staff.

1:18:47

- You think YouTube staff is picking

1:18:49

and choosing which video that they feature - In the podcast section section?

1:18:54

Absolutely. They, I'm sure they have, but

1:18:57

- That's not how they work. Todd, sorry. - Okay. Rob, go in. They don't work like that. Go into the

1:19:00

- It's all algorithmic done. - No. Yeah, it's, I've, okay, go.

1:19:04

- I've talked to YouTube people before. Go - Into the YouTube podcast section.

1:19:08

Oh, you see the same 20 or 25 shows? That's it.

1:19:13

- Okay. Well, that particular section of YouTube, is that

1:19:17

what you're specifically referring to? That's what

1:19:19

- Is the, that specific section, - That page that No, that nobody goes to.

1:19:24

- Exactly. - So

1:19:27

- Why are you pointing point to that one? That's what they, that's what they were highlighting

1:19:31

as the Crown gem of the YouTube experience were Oh, yes.

1:19:36

That was, you know, that's

1:19:39

where their success stories came from. - I thought they were talking more about

1:19:45

the YouTube music side. - No, they were talk, they talk mo they talk very

1:19:50

little about YouTube music. <laugh>, like three mentions.

1:19:55

- Okay. So I'm, I went

1:19:59

to youtube.com/podcast. Yep.

1:20:02

- Yep. - And I'm trying to pull it up. It's, it's loading.

1:20:08

I'm just trying to see if they have any clue in here, uh,

1:20:13

if it's algorithmic or not. And I'm looking at it,

1:20:17

and it does appear to be featuring

1:20:22

shows that were like, um, published most recently,

1:20:26

kinda like a ranking based on how frequent

1:20:29

or how new it was published. Um, most popular.

1:20:34

So it looks like a rank list of the most popular show that was updated.

1:20:38

- And I guarantee really same names fairly recently.

1:20:41

Same names, Lex Friedman, Paul Finn.

1:20:45

- Well, it's recommending us on the homepage

1:20:50

right now as a live show. - Well, I, I don't see that. - All I do on my screen.

1:20:55

- All right. Let me bring it up right here. So where, where did you, where did you find live?

1:21:02

- I recommended - Okay. Recommended. Nothing.

1:21:08

- Okay. Well, you must not be subscribed to this show then.

1:21:14

- I'm subscribed to my channel. - Okay. - So it shows you your channel.

1:21:21

It makes you feel good because you're subscribed to your channel.

1:21:23

It's recommending you, but it doesn't recommend me.

1:21:27

So again, these, they, they're king makers on this

1:21:30

and picking who, it's the same shows again

1:21:33

and again, I go in here and look at this. It's the same, same 20, 25 shows

1:21:39

that are in this section that they were highlighting as such a success.

1:21:43

- Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. - Yeah. Same shows club.

1:21:47

She, she built the Franco. Is he a podcaster?

1:21:50

No, he's a YouTuber. Um,

1:21:57

politics, 48 hours. Theo Vaughn. Again,

1:22:03

same, same shows again. Pat McCafe show. ESPN, uh, NBC.

1:22:10

Again. That's it. That's all we've got. And this is what we are calling success.

1:22:17

And you know, the average, the average podcaster will never be found here.

1:22:23

And so let's, you know, minus out of this,

1:22:26

and we just go to the homepage of YouTube.

1:22:30

And basically the only thing I'm shown here is the stuff

1:22:33

that I'm subscribed to, which, you know,

1:22:36

I would expect that to be on. But again, if I search podcasts, then what am I shown?

1:22:44

I'm shown the same shows, same exact same shows

1:22:48

that were over there in that top 20 list or whatever.

1:22:50

They had same, same list of stuff.

1:22:54

There's again, the Yvonne. So again, this is to me, oh,

1:22:59

what happened, Rob, are you still here? - Oh, yeah. I just wanna share my, my screen here.

1:23:06

- Yeah. So I, again, I don't, that doesn't show up

1:23:11

for me. So yeah. - So yeah. So we're right here.

1:23:15

- So go into Incognito window

1:23:18

and look at that. And

1:23:21

- Well, it says right in the text,

1:23:24

it says re recommended based on your subscriptions and

1:23:27

- History. <laugh>. - No, I mean, yeah. But that tells you it's,

1:23:31

it's an algorithm, but it's, - It's not, but it human edited.

1:23:34

Okay. But it doesn't show, that's not,

1:23:36

my show is not presented to me in that recommended list

1:23:42

when I bring up that list. Well, - Yeah, yeah.

1:23:44

It's, it's not gonna recommend my version of the show,

1:23:48

but it's recommending your version of the show.

1:23:51

- Oh, that's curious. - So, yeah.

1:23:54

'cause it shows it up up here that there's six people watching

1:23:57

and it's off of your YouTube channel.

1:23:59

Oh, that's the Geek News Central slash - Oh, that's curious.

1:24:02

Sos, because you're subscribed. I bet you if I was subscribed to your show,

1:24:05

it would show up in mine then. - Probably. - Probably. But you have

1:24:11

to already be subscribed. No one is, if you're not subscribed, my, my show's not,

1:24:15

our show's not gonna be shown in that list. You know, it is not. So this is wherein a lot

1:24:23

of content creators are having mental angst against YouTube.

1:24:30

They're not helping to grow a show. Yeah.

1:24:33

You might get discovered if you're lucky in a search

1:24:35

result, if you are lucky.

1:24:37

- It's, it's, it, it operates from the standpoint of,

1:24:41

um, merit. Right? So it operates based on

1:24:46

what the engagement is in the content. Right.

1:24:48

- So again, an average podcaster will never,

1:24:51

just like the average YouTuber will never be found.

1:24:55

- But you can't say never Todd, because that, that's not how the algorithm works.

1:24:58

It's not never, it's, it's based on the, the amount

1:25:03

of, um, or the, the watch time

1:25:07

and the frequency of visit

1:25:11

to a particular channel or a piece of content that dictates its

1:25:15

- Promotion. So therein lays again, the same argument that you have

1:25:20

to become a YouTuber and follow all the YouTube rules

1:25:25

and having a ingestion of your RSS feed into YouTube? No, no,

1:25:29

- No. This has nothing to do with RSS feeds.

1:25:32

- Okay. But if you, most podcasters

1:25:36

that are sending their stuff to YouTube are doing it via RSS feed, having their audio.

1:25:42

- Okay. But that's a different argument. Okay. I wasn't even talking about that.

1:25:44

- It's, it's the same thing. So, - Well, okay.

1:25:48

- Because most podcasters are not

1:25:50

building a YouTube channel. - Yeah, I get that, Todd. Okay. <laugh>.

1:25:56

But, but there are shows that are doing YouTube channels

1:26:01

and podcasts. W this show is an example of that. That

1:26:05

- Is correct. But - The other show that I do

1:26:08

for Streamy Yard is an example of that. Right. So, but

1:26:10

- Stream Yard is, there's - Plenty of other shows. - Say Streamy Yard is a video first platform,

1:26:15

not a podcast pat platform. So,

1:26:20

- Well, okay. I mean, so does that mean that, okay, so

1:26:26

- If - Are talking about a tool to create content

1:26:29

- No, what I'm talking about - Has to be dedicated to a

1:26:31

- Specific, what I'm trying, what I'm trying to, what I'm trying to imply is that

1:26:36

the reason podcasters are complaining,

1:26:41

and again, we already knew this before this ever started, is that if you want

1:26:45

to succeed on YouTube, you have to work really,

1:26:48

really hard on YouTube. - So, - So those

1:26:55

that are, are seeing no success. - That's not true, Todd. It's true.

1:27:00

That's just not a true and - Accurate. The majority - In all cases, the - Majority, the high majority are not.

1:27:05

Why do you think people are all pissed off? Why do you think people are just saying, okay, forget it.

1:27:14

- Okay. - I'm - Just saying it's all a matter of, I mean all,

1:27:18

it's all a matter of degrees <laugh>. Right? - It's true. I mean, there's, there's, I mean,

1:27:22

- What do you consider to be successful, Todd? Is that over 10 listeners or is it over a hundred thousand?

1:27:30

- It was sold as the second coming. - No, but what is your definition

1:27:35

of a success on YouTube?

1:27:39

- Uh, being able to be monetized, that would be success.

1:27:41

To be able to have enough watch hours to be,

1:27:46

to, to be monetized. That would, I would consider that to be successful.

1:27:51

- Okay. I've got about 2000, 2000 subscribers to my,

1:27:55

my channel, and I'm fully monetized.

1:27:58

- But again, you're one of a very small percentage of people

1:28:01

that go through and ask, go through and ask.

1:28:03

The majority of podcasters that are on YouTube,

1:28:06

they're not monetized, they're not getting traction,

1:28:09

they're not getting views. - But what's the vast majority of podcasters

1:28:13

that are publishing audio into RSS feeds are monetizing.

1:28:17

- Well, that's by choice. They can be monetized if they want.

1:28:21

- No, but I mean, is it $2 a month

1:28:25

or, I mean, no, - I don't know what - E it's all a matter of scale.

1:28:29

Right? Well, that's true. I mean, this whole conversation is, I think we have

1:28:33

to really get brass tacked with this.

1:28:36

It's is, if you wanna monetize, you have

1:28:38

to have an audience, right? Yeah. - And that's no matter what - Right.

1:28:42

In places to capture attention.

1:28:44

But, but, uh, are places, you know, like YouTube, um,

1:28:48

Spotify, other platforms. - My main point is you go to Apple Podcasts,

1:28:53

you can go way deep into the category

1:28:55

and way deep into the catalog. You can go to the business category

1:28:58

and you can keep scrolling and scrolling.

1:29:01

Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> and see just about everything in the inventory depends on how long you wanna scroll.

1:29:05

Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>, it's not possible on YouTube. Completely not possible.

1:29:09

You go to the podcast section on YouTube and there's about 20 shows that they highlight.

1:29:14

That's it. So again, there's gonna be no discovery on YouTube

1:29:18

unless you do a lot of work. - Well, because there's so many shows

1:29:22

or so many channels on YouTube there, there's no way

1:29:25

that they could present everybody on one page.

1:29:29

- Exactly. - I mean, I mean, you're talking,

1:29:31

you know, millions of shows, - Not millions of podcasts.

1:29:35

- Well, some percentage of them are podcasts. Right.

1:29:39

- But again, I'm just saying from a growth standpoint,

1:29:43

everyone keeps telling, oh, this is the number one place to be discovered.

1:29:46

Number one place to consume podcasts for about 25 shows.

1:29:50

- Yeah. I think we both agree that, that that statement,

1:29:53

that it's the number one place to consume podcasts is probably a, a little bit of a

1:29:59

stretch <laugh>. Well, - That's what all the surveys - From a practical,

1:30:03

- It's all the surveys say that's, this is the place to go.

1:30:06

- Well, that's, that's what people are telling the researchers that are audiences

1:30:11

is that that's, that's where they're discovering new podcasts.

1:30:15

- Discovering about, they're discovering about 25

1:30:18

podcasts or 50. Well, Leo Vaughn, regardless,

1:30:24

- Regardless of what that number is, people are perceiving it as a place for them

1:30:27

- To Yeah. Perceiving buy podcast. Yeah. Perceiving

1:30:31

- It's the number two search engine. - Oh, I'm not disputing, I'm not disputing that.

1:30:35

But again, the, the bill of goods that was sold,

1:30:40

that this is going to be the second coming, this is the place you have to be to be discovered.

1:30:45

- Well, I don't think anybody's saying that. Well, - That's not saying that that was what was sold.

1:30:51

- I think it's, it's just one place to be. And I think all the trend lines are pointing to increased

1:30:55

interest and increased production of video and

1:31:00

however you publish it. Whether it, and, but

1:31:02

- Currently, again, - YouTube is the number one video consumption

1:31:05

- Platform. Again, you are gonna - Make video. You better be on YouTube. That's all

1:31:09

- I can say. Again, you only have so many hours to watch.

1:31:13

- I don't know what that has to do with it, but it does. - We're long. I'm tired of arguing.

1:31:19

- We're not arguing. We're clarifying on a point around

1:31:24

why video and podcasting is okay.

1:31:27

I, I think that there's - Wrong, I'm not saying it's not okay.

1:31:29

I'm just saying Right. Again, this, this, this,

1:31:32

this. I guess

1:31:35

- I get it, Todd, you don't like YouTube and that's, no,

1:31:38

- That's the bottom line. I'm not saying I don't like YouTube.

1:31:41

I don't like what they Well, that's - Kind of how it comes across.

1:31:44

- I don't like how they have bastardized it.

1:31:47

- I don't think YouTube has really done anything. So that's part

1:31:50

of the problem is that they haven't done enough. - Well, again, it's not where I consume podcasts.

1:31:59

- It's fine. But there's millions of people out there that are

1:32:01

- Yeah, that's true too. Eh, can't out that.

1:32:05

- Yeah. So I think we can leave it at that, you know,

1:32:10

if you're listening to this and you've stuck around for this

1:32:13

- <laugh> Yeah. But - That, that, you know, you can decide for yourself. We've

1:32:17

- Got great listenership right now going, or great viewership going on on YouTube right now.

1:32:22

- <laugh>. That's, well, that's a good thing.

1:32:25

Get that thumbnail up there, Todd <laugh>.

1:32:30

- And you know, I - Mean, I didn't even make it custom artwork for today's episode.

1:32:33

I'm using a piece of generic art right now, so,

1:32:37

- You know, it should be a boxing gloves or something. - Um, yeah. Right, right.

1:32:41

- I I just, again, I, I play a little bit

1:32:44

as devil's advocate here, so, you know,

1:32:46

it's just, it is what it is. I'm just call me, call me an old curmudgeon.

1:32:52

I, I, I like my audio podcast. I,

1:32:56

- I'm, I'm not gonna argue with you on that <laugh>, so,

1:33:00

- And I definitely a big fan of that too. Definitely, definitely. Listen more than I

1:33:03

watch, that's for sure. And what I watch on YouTube is not a podcast.

1:33:09

I'm not watching two people talk on PO on YouTube.

1:33:12

That's, to me is insane. Why would you do that? Right.

1:33:16

Why, why, why are people watching us talk?

1:33:19

That's the next question, <laugh>, - Because they got nothing else better to do.

1:33:24

- Uh, I think so. Go ahead. - So we, we should probably call it, call it a day.

1:33:30

'cause I, I have another interview I have to do in five minutes.

1:33:33

- Okay. Are you going, you're, so you're going actually going to NAB now.

1:33:35

Wow. When, when was that changed? - Um, about a week and a half ago.

1:33:40

- Oh, okay. You're going to ban the stream Streamy yard. Booth

1:33:44

- Stream yard doesn't have a booth. Oh, really? So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm on a,

1:33:50

I'm a moderator for a panel as part of the Creator's Lab.

1:33:53

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, conference that's going on at the event in the South Hall.

1:33:57

Oh, okay. Um, so on Sunday. And I'm also doing a Streamy Yard workshop,

1:34:03

um, at that as well. Just gonna get up and talk about

1:34:06

the platform and how it works. All right. So - Todd, - So if you happen to go to NAB,

1:34:11

you know, go check it out. It's the CRA's lab conference in,

1:34:16

in the South Hall up on the second floor, which you Oh,

1:34:19

you know, well, Todd, yes, - I do.

1:34:22

<laugh>. All right. Give me, gimme your contact and then we'll get outta here.

1:34:25

- Uh, I'm at, uh, X Twitter at Rob Greenley.

1:34:29

And also, uh, you can send me an email if you want

1:34:32

to rob [email protected].

1:34:35

Rob greenley.com and go check out my, my stream yard, my Streamy Yard show,

1:34:41

um, podcast tips with Rob Greenley every Thursday night at

1:34:44

7:00 PM Eastern <laugh>. So - At Geek News on X Todd, I mean at Geek News.

1:34:50

At Geek news.chat on Mastodon geek [email protected]

1:34:54

on an email. So follow or subscribe to the podcast

1:35:00

on a new podcast [email protected].

1:35:03

And, uh, or go watch us on YouTube. Uh, yeah. Okay.

1:35:07

Whatever everybody thinks. We'll see you next time.

1:35:10

Take care. Okay. Bye. Bye.