0:02

Welcome to Culture Lab, I'm Christy Taylor. This

0:04

is the show where we talk about how

0:06

science intersects with our cultural creations. We

0:09

talk about novels, music, TV,

0:11

film. This week though, we're going

0:13

to talk about the moon. If you've

0:15

ever looked up at the full moon on a

0:17

clear night or observed all the changes it makes

0:20

over the course of a month, you

0:22

are participating in a tradition that stretches

0:24

back through thousands of years of human

0:27

history. For many

0:29

people, this sunlight illuminated rocky

0:31

body orbiting our Earth is

0:33

also the site of a certain

0:35

amount of spiritual awe, religious or

0:37

otherwise. On the concrete

0:39

side, we can thank the moon for the

0:42

tides, eclipses, and keeping the

0:44

Earth's rotation, and therefore climate, more

0:46

stable. The rhythms of animal

0:49

behavior follow the moon's light, but

0:51

we can also connect the moon's presence

0:53

to our sense of time, the reckoning

0:55

of stretches of time longer than just day

0:57

and night. And depending

0:59

on who you ask, the moon may

1:01

even be how humans started thinking scientifically

1:04

in the first place. Rebecca

1:06

Boyle is a science journalist. She wrote about

1:08

all of these things and more in her

1:10

new book, Our Moon,

1:12

how Earth's celestial companion transformed

1:15

the planet, guided evolution, and

1:17

made us who we are. I talked to

1:19

her last month. Welcome

1:23

Rebecca. My first question for you

1:25

is just, what is your favorite

1:28

phase of the moon? What's the

1:30

best? It actually depends on the

1:32

time of year for me. My favorite in the

1:34

summer is the full moon, just

1:36

because it's so dominant, but

1:38

it's also lower in the sky. So if

1:41

you ever notice that the sun and

1:43

the moon kind of seem to do

1:46

this double dutch like jump rope thing

1:48

across the sky. So right now in

1:50

the northern hemisphere going toward spring equinox,

1:53

the sun is still fairly low and the moon

1:55

is still fairly high. But in

1:57

the summer, after summer solstice, it's the

2:00

opposite. So the moon is really low on the horizon

2:02

and the sun is right overhead. And

2:04

I just like that moon, like the full summer

2:06

moon is just friendly. It's like right there. You

2:09

can see it in your window and it's

2:12

still so dominant on the

2:14

landscape, but it doesn't like overwhelm

2:17

the way that the winter moon can. And then

2:20

in the winter, I think I like the crescent

2:22

moon more just because

2:25

it's so dark, early, it's so cold.

2:27

You know, you don't want to be

2:29

out very late looking at it. So

2:31

it's just always kind of right there at

2:34

sunset. And it makes

2:36

it a little bit easier and more

2:38

accessible to see it. I

2:41

also love a crescent moon, though I had not

2:43

considered that maybe I like different things in different

2:45

seasons. So now I will consider that. So

2:48

when we talk about the moon

2:50

of earth, how singular, how special

2:52

is it? It is so

2:55

singular. It's the only moon like it

2:57

in the solar system. And as far

2:59

as we know, the broader galaxy, we've

3:01

never found a system like this anywhere

3:03

else. And it's much

3:05

more like a companion to the

3:07

earth than a subordinate, I think.

3:10

And that's partly because it's so big relative to

3:12

earth. I mean, it's one fourth the width of

3:14

earth. And if you think about the moons of

3:17

Jupiter, for instance, or Saturn, like

3:19

these are just tiny crumbs compared

3:21

to their host planet. And

3:24

they're far away, like they don't really do anything

3:26

as far as those planets are concerned, they're kind

3:28

of remnants, you know, from the formation

3:30

of the solar system. But our moon is

3:33

different. It was formed differently at

3:35

a different time in a different way than any other

3:37

moon we know of. Earth is

3:39

the only terrestrial planet to have a moon

3:42

like this. I mean, Venus has no moon,

3:44

Mercury has no moon, Mars has

3:46

these two captured asteroid little rocks

3:48

that are not even round. They're

3:50

like potato shaped little things. Yeah. But

3:53

our moon is like a planet. I mean,

3:56

it's huge. And it is

3:58

a companion to this world. world and it

4:00

really does shape Earth in

4:03

ways that are fundamental to our

4:05

existence. How did then

4:07

we get this unique companion?

4:10

What are the leading theories of how

4:12

we came to have this

4:15

giant globe in the

4:17

sky right with us? It's

4:20

interesting to me that we're not totally sure

4:22

about this. We think that

4:24

there was probably, I mean, we have some basic

4:26

outlines of what we think happened and

4:29

this happened after Apollo brought some rocks

4:32

home. We were able to kind of draw some conclusions

4:34

about how the moon was made and we

4:36

think it happened after a collision

4:38

with early Earth and a different

4:40

planet which we've named Theia, which is the

4:42

mother of the moon in Greek mythology.

4:46

And Theia was probably the size

4:48

of Mars now and is

4:50

in the same orbit as

4:52

Earth and these two planets

4:54

collided and totally obliterated each

4:56

other. And somehow,

5:00

probably very quickly after this collision,

5:02

we ended up with this paired system

5:04

of worlds, the moon and the Earth as

5:06

we know it. I called

5:08

it Earth 2.0 because Earth 1.0

5:11

is totally vaporized in this event and

5:14

so is Theia. So Theia is

5:16

no more and Earth 1.0 is no more, but

5:18

now we have the Earth and the moon as a

5:20

system. And the particulars

5:22

of that are still pretty hotly debated

5:25

actually in planetary science. And

5:27

one more recent theory that I think is really compelling

5:29

is that there was this sort of new structure

5:33

that arose after this collision

5:36

in which both planets were totally destroyed,

5:38

vaporized and literally into droplets

5:40

of rock and

5:42

it informed this huge steaming

5:45

cloud and the

5:47

shape of it looked like maybe

5:49

a bagel, like kind of round

5:51

but puffy with this central kind

5:54

of hole. You know, it would have been like a central

5:56

mass in the system. It looks like a hole

5:58

if you visualize it. it. But in

6:01

that center is where Earth

6:03

reformed and somewhere else

6:06

in that cloud is where the

6:08

moon formed. And we're

6:10

still trying to figure out exactly how that happened. I

6:12

mean, the most recent supercomputer simulations

6:14

of this process suggest that the moon

6:17

formed within like 100 years of this

6:19

process, like 100 in human numbers, which

6:22

is kind of unfathomable to

6:25

me. That's not even geologic time. That's

6:27

right. I mean, it's off the hook. And

6:31

so, but we don't actually know. And that's

6:33

partly because it's so unique. There's no other

6:35

place that we can visualize

6:37

this. There's no other way we can study this

6:39

somewhere else and compare our

6:41

system to others to figure out how it

6:43

might have happened. But yeah,

6:45

I think that's one of my favorite

6:48

theories, I guess, is this structure called

6:50

the synestia. And it

6:52

may be unique in our entire

6:54

solar system. Speaking

6:56

of uniqueness, also, we've

6:58

got a pretty hotly anticipated solar eclipse coming

7:00

up in April, which is a

7:03

sun centric event in many ways, but

7:05

you can't divorce the moon from this

7:07

phenomenon. And it's in

7:09

fact, as you write a very wild accident

7:11

that the moon is just kind of the

7:13

right size in the sky to completely cover

7:15

the sun, but also, you know, not always

7:17

completely. And, you know, when it

7:20

is complete, you still get sort of this corona

7:22

of the sun completely visible against the

7:24

dark sky. So how

7:27

did that happen? This

7:29

never fails to blow my mind.

7:32

I mean, it's an incredible cosmic

7:34

coincidence that I think is in some ways

7:36

like a little eerie, that

7:38

the moon and the sun appear to be

7:40

the same size in the sky. And

7:43

this happens because while the sun is 400

7:46

times bigger than the moon, it's also 400 times

7:49

more distant, and they're both, you

7:51

know, a perfect sphere. And so

7:53

it looks like they kind of

7:55

line up perfectly. And people throughout

7:57

time on Earth have ascribed. meaning

8:00

to that. And I still think

8:02

about that. I mean, you know, it's a

8:04

very interesting coincidence that these things are the

8:06

same size in the sky to line up

8:08

such that the entire sun seems to vanish.

8:11

And all you see is the sun's atmosphere.

8:13

And imagine being someone

8:16

in antiquity or before antiquity, before people

8:18

started figuring out what was happening and

8:21

just the fear and uncertainty

8:23

and beauty and terror

8:26

of that event. I think it's

8:28

fascinating to think about how people must have felt. And

8:31

I felt that I mean, I saw one in 2017, there

8:33

was an eclipse across the US a

8:35

few years ago, and we're going to have the

8:38

same thing happening here again. And it's sort of

8:40

crisscrossing the opposite pattern. But that eclipse

8:42

was two minutes. And I drove

8:45

with my family to Kentucky, I was living

8:47

in St. Louis at the time. And

8:49

it was going to be cloudy where I was. And I was

8:51

like, I'm not missing this. So we drove like

8:53

five hours. And that turned into a 10

8:55

hour trip home because of so much traffic.

8:58

But it was incredible. And it

9:00

was sort of terrifying in a

9:03

way that I had a hard time

9:05

putting into words. Like it's, it

9:07

is really otherworldly is really unique.

9:10

And I don't think it's possible to

9:12

overstate how bizarre it is to see a total

9:14

eclipse. And I think we're

9:16

very lucky to have them right now in a few

9:18

10s of millions of years, we won't anymore. The

9:20

moon is moving away from us. And

9:23

eventually, it'll be further away, enough

9:25

that it will no longer eclipse the sun

9:27

totally. So we're lucky to be here

9:29

at this time. I'm going

9:31

to rattle off a few more facts like that

9:33

that surprised and even kind of stunned me from

9:35

reading your book. But on top of what you

9:37

just said about the moon drifting further away bit

9:39

by bit, the moon may

9:41

also be shrinking. The moon smells like

9:44

gunpowder. The moon is not just this

9:46

drab gray, but it actually has color to it. Our

9:48

own oxygen molecules can end up on the

9:51

moon. The moon may be why we even

9:53

exist as a species. These were

9:55

all some very big surprises to me. What

9:58

were the big surprises or even The lights

10:00

to you in the process of learning more about

10:02

the moon. I. Think the biggest surprise

10:04

to me was the role in it probably

10:07

played in evolution which I think is really

10:09

intuitive if you stop and think about a

10:11

permanent. but I didn't know this entire work

10:13

in the book and I think. The research

10:15

that shows us for relation is so

10:18

recent to they it's it's. That

10:20

was very surprising to me to see how clearly. This

10:22

connection can be made and as it has

10:24

to do with the tide and mean the

10:26

the moon. Creates a tied in

10:28

the oceans and that's probably the way that

10:30

we experienced the moon for the most part

10:32

on earth. other than its lay in a

10:34

you see at at night when it's full

10:36

or a crescent you know. But. Most.

10:39

People if they think about the moon at

10:41

all other than seeing it, It through

10:43

the tide. And. That.

10:45

Also is sort of if our of

10:47

experiences that is limited. We be spirits the

10:50

tide as like I'm on the beach as

10:52

a move my towel now because the tides

10:54

come again or something you know but. It's

10:57

such a fundamental, almost violent process

10:59

that the entire Earth is sloshing

11:01

around constantly. And so as the

11:04

moon and they're both play on

11:06

each other and mutual center of

11:08

gravity. And this tug

11:10

that the moon exerts on

11:13

us really changes our entire

11:15

planet. And back in the

11:17

past when the moon was closer it

11:19

would have been even stronger. This effect

11:21

and I started thinking about evolution. From

11:23

that point of view that I sounded

11:26

really cool. study on coral. Growth rings

11:28

said dated to the salary and period

11:30

which is like four hundred million years

11:32

ago and these are like tree rings

11:34

where you can make. You. Know

11:36

date, add environment or an age

11:39

of a coral by looking at

11:41

growth rings and looks like the

11:43

day was about twenty hours long.

11:45

Four hundred million years ago. Because.

11:48

The moon is was closer

11:50

and so earth day was

11:52

shorter sorry rotation was faster.

11:54

and i felt like that would have really

11:56

also had a dramatic effect on the tide

11:59

and i wondered that and

12:01

turned out so had a British physicist

12:03

had wondered the same thing around the

12:05

same time and published a paper looking

12:08

at this tidal cycle and how the

12:10

oceans of Earth at the time would have

12:12

responded to this gravitational influence

12:16

and it would have created these really extreme

12:18

tide cycles and it

12:20

turned out that these high tide cycles

12:22

were happening at the same time that

12:25

vertebrates were emerging onto land and

12:28

in 2020 a grad student published

12:31

the first kind of really deep

12:33

connection among these phenomena that

12:35

the tide and the vertebrate emergence

12:38

onto land and it's it's almost

12:40

unmistakable I mean like the

12:43

tide cycles in the Devonian period this is

12:45

like 380 320

12:47

million years ago a time frame is the age

12:49

of fishes and fish are the dominant

12:52

life forms in the oceans the

12:54

same time Pangea is starting to

12:57

form this famous supercontinent that gives rise

12:59

to the dinosaurs and kind of you

13:01

know students learn about in school is

13:03

starting to kind of close up so

13:06

oceans are closing ocean basins are narrowing

13:08

and tides in these basins would have

13:10

been extreme like 80 feet

13:13

of water between high and low tide so

13:15

if you're a fish in shallow

13:17

water and the tide is rushing

13:19

out it really rapid rate like

13:21

you better get out of there

13:24

or learn how to breathe the air and

13:26

move across the land and that's what

13:29

happened and I think the influence

13:31

of the moon on that process

13:34

has been underappreciated and I

13:36

never thought about it before writing this book and

13:39

then I kind of dove into the evidence and

13:41

it looks like pretty clearly that the moon

13:43

played a big role in that process yeah

13:47

in more recent history the tides

13:49

are also key to warfare on this planet

13:51

right I mean D-Day hinge on the tide

13:53

situation off the coast of Normandy You

13:56

start the entire book talking about the Battle of

13:58

Tarawa which is an. Example of

14:00

actually the moon kind of letting

14:03

down a military campaign. Talk.

14:05

About that. Yes, Of the spurs

14:07

in the Battle of Kerala in the

14:09

Pacific, and rover. To be

14:11

allies are trying to.

14:14

Get. Closer to mainland Japan

14:16

and eventually prepare for an

14:19

invasion and they're trying to

14:21

capture a series. Of islands that

14:23

was the the Gilbert Islands is now

14:25

part of that. They sniffed your boss

14:27

and indo rember of nineteen. Forty Three.

14:29

The plan was to capture the

14:32

coral at all called Terawatt and

14:34

it's surrounded by a barrier reef

14:36

and. The. Plan was to

14:38

make a beachhead in at

14:41

about eleven. In the morning on

14:43

a rising high tide and. The.

14:45

Tide actually sales. So the

14:48

marines as they're. Preparing to

14:50

invade this at all, they're both get

14:52

stuck on the reef and they have

14:54

to get out and way to cross

14:57

five feet of water to shore. And.

15:00

Japanese forces trying to maintain control

15:02

the island are just shooting and

15:04

three thousand marines died in the

15:06

saddle. And. It was because

15:08

of the tide. never came. This.

15:10

Is in part because they didn't have

15:12

good geographical maps at the time. This

15:14

is before the space age obviously. He,

15:16

no, he didn't have really good records

15:19

of of tied charts in this part

15:21

of the world. There are using tied

15:23

charge from a century earlier from the

15:25

age of maritime exploration or tide charge

15:27

from like the coast of Chile like

15:29

two thousand miles away. And.

15:31

So they were just us. And

15:33

what's more, they didn't know and nobody

15:35

thought to plan for where the moon

15:37

was in it's orbit. So it was

15:39

the opposite of a super moon which we

15:42

hear about now. In the context

15:44

of the moon being closer and it's elliptical

15:46

orbit, it was further away at this point

15:48

and so the tide was weaker. This is

15:50

the moon is more distant. It's gravitational

15:52

influence is less. It was just

15:54

enough difference to have this. They

15:56

called it a dodging tied. Where.

15:59

The tie did not. There's enough to float. The

16:01

boats over the reef and the battle

16:03

was so. Catastrophic said. this

16:05

is one of the things that led

16:07

to the know our Office of Oceanography.

16:10

Because the Allies in American. Leadership

16:12

realized like we don't know enough about the

16:14

ocean. we don't know what's going on here.

16:16

We didn't actually have scientists study this and

16:18

that can about after the saddle. And

16:21

to me it was interesting because my grandfather

16:23

was there in this battle and he he

16:25

was not on the invasion that day, he

16:27

was on a different island he was at.

16:30

That Bombardier if he wasn't in the planes.

16:32

But he quipped. The airplanes with bombs.

16:34

He was a marine and he was involved

16:37

in this battle and I I heard about

16:39

this as a kid. You know, I always

16:41

heard stories but. Like a lot of veterans, he didn't

16:43

like talking about it, so I didn't get that many

16:45

details. And. I never knew that

16:47

this influence the moon had. You

16:50

know played such a role in how this battle

16:52

ended up and he made it out of his

16:54

say he's become return home and. Marry.

16:57

My grandmother and have my mom and her

16:59

siblings and will visit him and I was

17:01

a. Kid every summer and out

17:03

here. Some stories about and service

17:05

but not much and certainly not.

17:07

About this, I never knew that the

17:10

role the moon played in that battle,

17:12

and to me it was just a

17:14

really fascinating and personal window into how

17:16

the Moon influence ss and ways that

17:19

we don't. Appreciate. You.

17:21

Traces really extensive arc of how

17:23

the mean has also touched our

17:25

culture, starting with it being a

17:27

time keeping tool than an object

17:30

of worship and then the someday

17:32

soon as not just modern astronomy,

17:34

modern science and I want you

17:36

to help me retrace an arc

17:38

a bit. starting with thousands of

17:40

years ago, the ways people use

17:42

pits and stones and other monuments

17:44

to track the moon. Why did

17:46

they do this? How did they

17:48

do this? So. I think the

17:51

oldest relationship we have with the moon is

17:53

through our ability to tell time and probably

17:55

also people just enjoy looking at it as

17:57

a single. Do you know it's beautiful and.

18:00

In an especially before the age

18:02

of civilization certainly. But even artificial

18:04

lighting at night. it's so powerful

18:06

at night he kept mistake it

18:08

in a huge you can't miss

18:10

it and thirty people just. Always

18:12

noticed that M are fond of it, but

18:14

didn't take long for early humans to understand

18:16

that we can use it and we could

18:18

use it to mark time. I mean

18:20

if you're thinking about. The cycle of

18:22

the sun rises and sets every. Day. And over

18:24

the course of the year you can tell it's in a

18:27

different location. In the sky we have the

18:29

solstices where it seems to go back the

18:31

other direction. but on the ten skills that

18:33

we live our lives, the moon is way

18:35

more useful. It changes every night. And

18:38

every morning. And so if you're.

18:40

Trying. To plan something. Or you're

18:43

going to meet someone somewhere you can

18:45

say I will meet you at this

18:47

tree when the moon is half full

18:49

in our something and that's a universally

18:52

understandable and accessible way of marking your

18:54

days. And so I think every every

18:56

culture on earth used it in this

18:59

way and figured this out and. Over.

19:01

Time that became more complicated the way.

19:03

That we use the moon to sort of count. Ahead

19:06

I think it's probably. The first

19:08

way that people were able to orient.

19:10

Ourselves and time and mentally move

19:12

into the future, which as far

19:15

as we know is it really

19:17

uniquely. Human thing. I mean you know

19:19

animals can plan and for edge and

19:21

things. Like that have enough squirrels can

19:23

gather. Not something like. That but as

19:25

far as we know humans of the only

19:27

species that can say you know. In

19:29

the six moon of the year I will go on vacation.

19:32

And if is it said, I'm. I

19:34

think the moon is really useful for that and it

19:36

and allowed us to make these mental leaps. In

19:38

terms of the know organizing our

19:41

lives and so people used Earth

19:43

and Monuments and Landscape Monuments to.

19:45

Be able to connect those cycles of the

19:47

moon to their lives and to be able

19:50

to tie those to the sun as well

19:52

because you know if you use the sun

19:54

to kind of figure out. When. It's

19:56

time for spring and summer. Winter and fall when

19:58

you're going to harvest. When you're. going to sow crops,

20:00

when you're going to hunt, you need to

20:02

be able to pay attention to the seasons. But

20:05

the moon gives you a more precise

20:08

way of marking time, and you have

20:10

to align these two lights in the

20:12

sky. And so ancient cultures across time

20:15

and across this planet figured out ways to

20:17

do that. I tried to find

20:19

the oldest ones. And

20:21

I think the oldest one that

20:23

is probably a lunar monument is

20:25

this field of pits in Scotland,

20:28

northeastern Scotland has a lot of

20:30

lunar monuments, actually. And one

20:32

of the oldest is probably

20:34

from about 8000 BC. So this

20:36

is 10,000 years ago. And it's a

20:39

series of pits dug into the ground

20:41

in this kind of arcing pattern that

20:44

traces the horizon. And

20:46

a few landscape architects

20:48

have studied this. And one

20:51

of the more popular conjectures is

20:53

that this was used as

20:55

a calendar device. So some

20:57

people would have maybe burned fires in

20:59

a pit, like maybe each lunar cycle

21:01

is represented by one of these pits, there

21:03

are 13 of them. And there can

21:06

be as many as 13 full moons in a

21:08

solar year. And so the

21:10

thought is that these have to do with the moon and

21:12

people use them to mark time and to maybe

21:15

mentally travel forward in

21:17

time. And then we

21:19

have this moment where the

21:21

moon goes from being a tool to being an object

21:23

of worship. And then many, many centuries

21:26

and thousands of years later, the

21:28

moon became crucial to Copernicus' calculations,

21:30

that in fact, the Earth revolves

21:32

around the sun, and

21:35

not as many people were sort of stuck

21:37

thinking the opposite. How was

21:39

the moon so key to

21:41

this understanding? And also why, you know,

21:43

as you write, is it so key

21:46

to science as a whole? I

21:49

think the way that we use the

21:51

moon as a timekeeper evolves

21:53

pretty quickly into a more deliberate

21:58

sort of form of aid. And

22:00

so a lot of early cultures worship the

22:02

moon and are really devoted to it and

22:04

personify it as a God. This

22:06

happens across culture and develop

22:10

this deep relationship with it. And

22:12

because of this devotion to it, people start

22:14

taking really detailed records of where it

22:16

is relative to the planets and what it's

22:18

doing and what phase it is, when eclipses

22:20

are happening. And that creates

22:23

this compendium of just data that

22:25

is used by Greek astronomers to make sense

22:28

of the universe for the first time. And

22:31

one of the earliest people to do this is

22:33

Ptolemy, who writes the Alma Gust,

22:35

which is kind of the great

22:38

magisterial work of antiquity

22:40

that brings down all of known mathematics

22:42

at the time. And

22:44

it is carried through 1500 years of history to Copernicus. So

22:50

Copernicus reads it and is like, this is wrong,

22:54

because Ptolemy has to do some really

22:56

interesting math to be able to make

22:58

his system work. So in his

23:00

system, which is geocentric,

23:03

so the Earth is at the center of the universe,

23:05

all the planets and the stars and the sun, the moon

23:08

go around the Earth. And

23:10

he works out their orbits with

23:12

these really complicated circular systems called

23:15

epicycles. And

23:17

to Copernicus, studying in

23:19

grad school, it's not

23:21

neat enough. And he's bothered by it. He's

23:23

actually a very devout Catholic

23:26

priest. And he's like, this

23:28

is just wrong. I don't like this. This is, I

23:30

need to fix the math here. It's messy. God,

23:32

yes, messy. And like, God would never have

23:35

created an imperfect system. So I

23:37

need to find a better arrangement of circles.

23:39

This is what he literally writes in the introduction

23:41

to his own treatise. And

23:44

he finds out, you know, that the truth that

23:47

it's actually not a geocentric universe that we live in,

23:49

but a heliocentric one. And that the sun is at

23:52

the center of everything. And we orbit the sun. And

23:55

I think the moon is in part responsible

23:57

for him finding this out because of the

23:59

way Ptolemais has to account

24:01

for its orbit. If his

24:03

mass is right, the moon has to get a

24:06

lot closer every month than it

24:08

actually does and move absurdly far

24:10

away. And that doesn't happen. The

24:13

apparent change in size is not

24:15

nearly as much as it would need to be for Ptolemais'

24:17

mass to work out. But I also think

24:19

it's interesting that the moon is one

24:21

of the reasons why we held on so

24:24

long to the idea of geocentrism.

24:27

Because the moon orbits the Earth. It

24:29

so obviously does. And you can tell if

24:31

you just watch it for a few nights. The

24:33

sun is what lights it, but it's going around

24:35

our planet. And you can feel it. And

24:39

so why wouldn't everything else be? It's

24:41

logical, you know? I don't blame people for thinking that

24:43

that's what happened, because it makes a lot of sense.

24:46

And the moon is kind of the

24:48

confusing element in

24:50

our cosmology until Copernicus figures

24:53

out the truth. And then after

24:56

thousands of years of staring up at the moon, of

24:58

the moon being an object of devotion

25:01

and of being data, we

25:03

actually went there. Human beings walked on

25:05

the moon. They picked up rocks. They brought

25:08

them back. A few representatives of our species

25:10

have touched that very distant globe in the

25:12

sky. You seem to have a

25:14

lot of love and awe of your experience writing

25:16

this book, but especially that moment when you got

25:18

to be in the same room as these lunar

25:21

rock samples that the Apollo mission had brought back.

25:24

What was that like? And what

25:26

importance do those rocks have, you know,

25:28

both as symbols, but also again as

25:30

data? I don't think there's

25:33

a way to overstate how important they are. And

25:36

I think it's in part because we've

25:38

learned so much about the moon's geologic

25:40

history and Earth's history from studying them

25:43

and looking at their components and how they were

25:45

made and what that says about how the moon

25:47

was made. But they're also

25:49

so transformatively different

25:52

to me. It was so bizarre

25:56

and almost like spiritual

25:58

to see them. so otherworldly, they're

26:01

so obviously not from here.

26:04

They don't look anything like Earth rocks.

26:06

I mean, every rock here is molded

26:09

by this planet, by time and wind

26:11

and water and the

26:13

tide, the movement of continents

26:16

over the Earth planet's tectonic

26:18

cycles. And you can

26:20

tell they're like beaten down where Earth

26:22

rocks have this like weariness about them,

26:24

the softness to them. And

26:27

moon rocks do not. They're sharp

26:29

and jagged and blocky and they're

26:32

crystalline. They look rough edged

26:36

because they are. There's no erosion on the moon

26:38

to beat them down like there is here. And

26:40

so that's the first thing you notice is that

26:42

they look really different from anything you've

26:44

ever seen on Earth. And

26:47

the way they're treated by the

26:49

curators is almost like

26:51

reverence. They're protected

26:54

in these glove boxes and

26:56

pressurized air. Samples that

26:58

are not being worked with are stored in

27:00

a vault that's like a bank

27:02

vault and the door actually came from

27:05

the Federal Reserve. So it's like imagine

27:07

this giant wheel, you're

27:09

spinning a wheel like a bank

27:11

robber heist movie. That's just about to say that

27:13

would be a fantastic heist movie right there. Yeah,

27:16

exactly. So the whole

27:19

experience of seeing them and being near them

27:21

is just very, it's

27:23

almost like a pilgrimage. And you

27:25

have to bathe yourself in the air

27:28

to wash away all of your own

27:30

impurities. You have to put on

27:32

this bunny suit and pure white to

27:34

be able to enter the room. There's a lot of

27:36

kind of familiar feeling

27:39

rituals for anyone who's grown

27:41

up with a tradition of religion like I

27:43

did. And I feel

27:45

like it's almost impossible not to

27:47

feel like the entire thing is very special.

27:50

And then you see them and they really are, they're

27:52

really unique. And I don't

27:55

think anything can substitute for the

27:57

ability to touch the moon here on earth. Speaking

28:00

of touching the moon, our space reporter was

28:02

talking to us earlier this year about how

28:05

this really feels like this year is the

28:07

year of the moon. There's the eclipse coming up

28:09

but are also pretty much everyone and their mother

28:11

is sending landers or has sent landers at this

28:14

point. Private companies are sending

28:16

art up there and more controversially have

28:18

tried to send human remains up there.

28:20

With all this talk of moon bases,

28:22

mineral extraction, even just like planting a

28:25

flag, it's starting to feel

28:27

really crowded, isn't it? It

28:29

feels very crowded, it feels very exciting,

28:31

it feels kind of troubling. It's sort

28:33

of all of the above to me

28:35

and I think I'm super

28:37

excited about the energy around getting

28:40

to the moon. People are really invested in this

28:42

and I mean both like literally

28:45

and figuratively there's a lot of a lot

28:47

of money flying into the lunar economy

28:49

right now and there's just a lot

28:51

of excitement and interest about going back and sending

28:53

people back there, sending robots up there. But

28:56

I hope that as this happens that

28:58

we at least take a moment

29:00

to consider what we're doing up there and why

29:03

what the moon represents to us and

29:06

the fact that it doesn't belong to

29:08

anyone, it doesn't belong to NASA or

29:10

the US or you know Japan or India

29:12

or China or Russia, any of

29:14

the spacefaring nations are trying to get up there

29:17

and it doesn't belong to private companies that

29:19

are trying to get up there for both science

29:22

and profit-making ventures

29:25

and I think we need to be thoughtful about

29:27

that and understand that it's a part of Earth,

29:29

it's a part of all of us, it belongs

29:32

to all of us which means it belongs to no

29:34

one and so we need to

29:36

be really careful with what we do

29:38

up there. And in this journey we've

29:41

talked about of the moon from you

29:43

know timekeeper to God to scientific fact

29:45

to question mark resource,

29:48

it feels like there's still room in a lot

29:50

of ways for the moon to be a

29:53

site of awe as well even

29:55

among atheists like myself, many

29:58

people on this planet just celebrated the lunar New

30:00

Year, there are entire calendars like

30:02

that that still run on the Moon. Can

30:05

awe and I guess cultural

30:07

significance for the Moon exist

30:09

with an extractive commercialized multinational

30:12

Moon? I think that

30:15

is an open question and it's

30:17

one that frankly concerns me because

30:19

I do think that if the

30:21

Moon becomes you know basically

30:23

a mining outpost for various

30:26

countries there is something

30:28

lost and it's power

30:30

over us maybe even

30:32

physically. I mean I don't know that remains to

30:34

be seen but certainly it's power over us

30:37

emotionally and philosophically I think

30:40

would be diminished or at least

30:42

changed if it just becomes a place

30:44

for us to traipse around

30:46

and start digging. You

30:49

know, I think it's there's a way

30:51

for us to explore the Moon that's really

30:53

exciting and that's really secular

30:56

in the sense that it's for

30:58

everyone. It's not limited to one

31:00

culture or one you know experience

31:03

of the Moon but

31:05

I think I don't know exactly how

31:07

that's going to come to be right now and

31:09

I don't think anybody else does either. There's not

31:11

anyone in charge. There's not really an international agreement

31:13

about how to do this. I think

31:16

a useful way to think about it is Antarctica because

31:19

we've all kind of agreed as a planet

31:21

that it's special. We've all agreed

31:24

that doesn't belong to any nation even though

31:26

a few countries have tried to lay claim

31:28

to it. There's no

31:30

battles right now for you

31:32

know supremacy there or for

31:34

sovereignty. We've all kind of

31:36

agreed that the Antarctic Treaty is

31:39

a way that we're going to use the framework to

31:41

imagine this landmass which

31:43

is austere. It's beautiful.

31:45

It's very dangerous. It's difficult

31:48

to get there. There's a

31:50

lot of parallels with the Moon. I think it's

31:53

a good example for how we can do

31:55

this thoughtfully. There's tourism there. There's science there.

31:57

People go there. People can stay for a

31:59

long period. with training and

32:01

equipment and preparation. And I

32:03

think that's how we can treat the moon. It doesn't

32:05

have to be kind of carved

32:07

up the way we've carved

32:09

up this planet with artificial borders

32:12

and extractive goals.

32:15

But I think now is a good time to

32:17

have this conversation because this is sort of happening

32:20

in real time. I mean, there's a lot going on this year,

32:22

as you said, and I think it's a good

32:24

time for a reckoning on what we're doing. We

32:26

started this conversation talking about the phases

32:29

of the moon and your favorites. As

32:31

we talk, the moon is almost full. And

32:36

I guess regardless of the phase, I'm wondering

32:38

what you would invite listeners to

32:41

notice and appreciate about the moon the next time

32:43

they see it. Again, regardless

32:45

of phase, but maybe there's some phase

32:48

specific instructions as well. Regardless

32:50

of phase, think about where

32:52

it is in the sky when you see

32:54

it. Is it morning and you're going off

32:56

to school or work or dropping

32:59

off your kids? Maybe it's in

33:01

the morning sky. Is it

33:03

early evening and you're walking your

33:05

dog or something after dinner

33:07

and it's a crescent. Just paying

33:09

attention to where it is depending

33:12

on what time it is, I

33:14

think is an interesting way to imagine this

33:16

orbit and how it goes around this planet

33:18

and how the sun lights it differently depending on

33:20

where it's located. And then notice

33:22

it again the next night and see how much it's changed.

33:25

And you can sort of feel the

33:28

becoming if it's a crescent. You can feel

33:30

it growing. You can see it getting bigger.

33:34

One thing I think I want people to think

33:36

about is that when you see

33:38

the moon, it's almost always a gibbous

33:40

moon. That's the most common phase you'll

33:42

see in your life because

33:45

it's usually gibbous in the morning when

33:47

it's after full, it's waiting. And

33:49

it's gibbous for several days before

33:51

it's full at night. And so most

33:53

of the time you're awake, the

33:56

moon is in that phase, which I

33:58

think is an interesting way of thinking about. our

34:00

lives. Like we're always sort of almost.

34:04

We're always becoming something. We're always

34:06

changing. And the moon is

34:08

an interesting way to think about that and how

34:10

we grow and change on

34:13

a daily basis. That's beautiful.

34:15

Thank you so much, Rebecca. Thanks

34:17

for having me. Thanks

34:21

for listening to this episode of Culture Lab from

34:23

New Scientist Podcast. Rebecca Boyle is

34:25

a journalist and author of Our Moon,

34:27

How Earth's Celestial Companion Transformed the Planet,

34:29

Guided Evolution, and Made Us Who We

34:32

Are. If you liked this interview,

34:34

make sure you subscribe to our feed for more like it.

34:37

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34:42

Find more of the great journalism from

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New Scientist on our website at newscientist.com.

34:46

I'm Christy Taylor. Bye for now. This

34:55

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34:57

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