0:00

Kia ora, ko Sarah Burgess tōku ingoa, he Pou

0:03

Hītori ki te Manatū Taonga. Hi there, I’m Sarah

0:07

Burgess, a historian at Manatū Taonga, the

0:09

Ministry for Culture and Heritage. Welcome to the

0:12

New Zealand History podcast channel where you will

0:15

find talks on Aotearoa New Zealand history,

0:17

culture and society. These talks are co-hosted by

0:21

Manatū Taonga and Te Puna Mātauranga o Aotearoa

0:24

the National Library of New Zealand and are

0:26

recorded live at the Library each month. Before

0:29

we get into this talk, just a quick warning that

0:32

this episode does contain a few swear words.

0:36

Kia ora koutou, nau mai, haere mai, ko Neill tōku

0:38

ingoa. Welcome, everyone. I'd like to, I’m

0:42

particularly pleased to introduce Ryan Bodman to

0:45

speak today. Because as some of you may remember,

0:48

we actually had him planned to speak to us last

0:51

year. In fact, twice. And we were thwarted by

0:54

COVID on both occasions. So we're really pleased

0:57

that we've been able to bring him, bring him to

1:00

Wellington to talk today about the value of social

1:03

media as a 21st century history research tool.

1:07

So over the past five years, and in fact, he

1:09

informs me maybe a little bit longer than that in fact, Ryan has been researching and writing this

1:14

history, ‘Rugby League: a New Zealand history’, which looks at the social and cultural history of

1:20

this football code in New Zealand. And as part of

1:23

this project, he has brought a broader

1:26

collaborative component to his research through

1:29

the use of social media. And in this talk, he's

1:32

gonna explore how he's used social media in the

1:35

development of the book with particular attention

1:37

on its value to academic historians seeking to

1:41

engage with people outside the university

1:43

setting. So please join me in welcoming Ryan to

1:46

the stage Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa

1:55

Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou kātoa. Ki te atua, tēnā

2:00

koe. Ki a Papatūānuku, tēnā koe

2:05

Ki ngā tāngata whenua, Ngāti Toa rāua ko Te

2:08

Atiawa, mauri ora. Ko kaimahi Pākehā te iwi. Nō

2:13

Tauranga Moana ahau. Ko Ryan Bodman tōku ingoa.

2:17

Tuhia 2 ki te rangi, tuhia ki te whenua, tuhia

2:21

ki te ngākau o ngā tāngata. Ko te mea nui. Ko te

2:24

aroha. Tihei mauri ora

2:27

Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā tātou katoa.

2:33

Thank you for coming along to the session of Manatū Taonga's public history talks. And thank

2:38

you to Sarah Burgess and Emma Kelly for inviting me along.

2:41

Today I want to speak to you all about the process of researching and writing 'Rugby League in New

2:45

Zealand History', which is a book length study of the football code

2:49

in this country that I began working on back in

2:51

2014. Specifically, I want to talk to you about the use

2:55

of social media as a tool in the development of that project.

3:00

Like many of us, I have a love hate relationship with social media. At a time in my life when I'm

3:17

actively trying to cultivate a greater focus on

3:32

the present moment, social media can be a real

3:34

distraction. But as a historian, I have found

3:38

social media to be a powerful tool in my efforts

3:40

to promote public engagement with my work. But it was Dr. Michael Stevens' Facebook page, 'A

3:53

World History of Bluff' that first made me aware

3:55

of the potential value that these platforms could

3:58

bring to my work as a historian Dr. Stevens developed his Facebook page in tandem

4:03

with his own book-length project. And on that

4:06

project's website, he explains the purpose of the

4:09

book's social media presence as follows.

4:12

'This project has a Facebook page largely to keep

4:15

people up to date with its progress and findings',

4:17

writes Stevens. 'However, it would be great if it also generated

4:23

some discussion about aspects of Bluff's history

4:26

as the Bluffy's Facebook group and the Bluff 2024

4:29

urban urban rejuvenation Facebook page often do'.

4:35

In line with his hopes for the page, Dr. Stevens

4:37

posts to the World History of Bluff Facebook

4:39

account often attract a significant number of

4:42

engagements. And when I took a closer look at who was engaging

4:46

with this page, I noticed that Dr. Stevens was

4:49

using his project's social media presence to get

4:52

his ideas and research before what looked like a

4:54

broad variety of people. Alongside fellow academic historians,

5:01

Dr. Stevens' posts were reaching and inciting an

5:04

active response from members of the public with a

5:06

connection to, or interest in Bluff, as well as

5:10

local, and amateur historians whose interests in

5:13

the deep south overlapped with those of Dr. Stevens.

5:17

And it was this use of Facebook as a tool to cut

5:20

across the silos that sometimes dominate this

5:22

landscape of historical inquiry in New Zealand

5:25

that initially caught my attention. I guess I come from the academic side of the

5:42

ledger. And it's been my experience that in the

5:46

university context, journal publications and

5:48

attendance at conferences with fellow academics

5:51

are viewed to be valuable uses of our time. While

5:54

little if any value is placed on making

5:57

intelligent content available and accessible to a

6:00

wider audience. But for the moment, can I just say that I think

6:11

the current state of play largely reflects structural issues, as employment in the modern

6:15

university context is often precarious, and any

6:19

hope of maintaining that employment has come to be

6:21

increasingly tied to an academic's ability and

6:23

willingness to meet a set of prescribed outputs.

6:32

There's a wonderful passage in the Noam Chomsky reader Understanding Power,

6:37

in which Chomsky reflects on the tradition of public education that existed at some American and

6:42

British universities during the interwar period.

6:46

'That was one of the big things in the 1930s, for

6:48

left intellectuals to be involved in' explained

6:51

Chomsky, 'good scientists, well-known important

6:55

scientists, just felt like it was part of their

6:58

obligation to the human species to do popular

7:01

science. So you had very good books being written about

7:05

physics, and about mathematics and so on - for

7:08

instance, there's a book called Mathematics for the Millions, by Lance Hogben,

7:13

which is an example of it. He came out of the

7:15

left. And the point is, those people just felt

7:17

that this kind of knowledge should be shared by everyone. If you're privileged enough to, say,

7:22

know mathematics, and you think you're part of the

7:24

general world, obviously, you should try to help

7:27

other people understand it.' In this passage, Chomsky is speaking to a very

7:32

different time in a very different place to that which we currently find ourselves. But the things

7:37

that he touches on, that knowledge is a public

7:39

good, and that those of us privileged enough to

7:41

have access to it have a responsibility to make it

7:44

available to others, strike a chord that lies deep

7:46

within me. I was originally planning on studying the history

7:50

of rugby league in New Zealand as a topic for a

7:52

PhD thesis. But after sharing some of my academic

7:55

writings with my parents, I began to have second

7:57

thoughts. My mum and dad, Garth and Julia

8:01

Boardman, don't have higher formal qualifications,

8:03

but they are both intelligent people. Despite this, the academic articles that I had

8:08

managed to get published during my time at uni,

8:11

were essentially impenetrable to them, as the style expected in those publications,

8:15

places little value on accessibility, And this realisation, that pieces of work that I

8:27

had really struggled to create, were of almost no

8:30

value to some of the people I love the most in this world really got me thinking, you know?

8:34

What's the point of writing like this? I didn't go

8:37

to university to become part of an exclusive club.

8:40

I went there to learn. And if the people who

8:42

raised me can engage with the stories that I'm trying to uncover, what the fuck is the point of

8:47

writing? So I abandon the PhD idea. And I began working on

8:52

a history of rugby league in my spare time, around

8:55

the far more important and far more stressful job

8:58

of looking after these two. Just a heads up, Ryan is talking about his two

9:03

kids. That's Rosie on the right and Archie on the left,

9:07

taking a quick food break from the pools. In line with what I've just told you, when I

9:12

started on this project in 2014, I set myself the

9:15

goal of writing a history that is academically credible, but publicly accessible. Whether I've

9:20

achieved this goal remains to be seen, as the

9:23

first draft of the text has only recently made it to a publisher. But when I saw how Dr Stevens was

9:28

using his project’s social media account to get

9:31

his academic research and ideas before a broad

9:33

variety of people, I knew that Facebook could be a

9:36

valuable tool in my own work as a historian.

9:40

So in September 2017 I set up the 'Rugby League: a

9:43

New Zealand History' Facebook page, describing it

9:46

as a page to connect with league fans and historians as I research and write the book.

9:51

And over subsequent years, the page has filled

9:54

that purpose well, helping me to get my ideas and

9:57

research before a much larger audience than would

9:59

have And by making some of my research available in

10:05

this way, the engagements made possible through

10:08

Facebook have served to both affirm the value of

10:11

my work and also brought an incredible amount of

10:13

additional value to the project. The platform allows users to engage with material

10:24

posted to a page in a variety of ways. Facebook

10:28

users can like, love, dislike or laugh at a post.

10:32

They can comment on a thread below a post and they

10:35

can share posts to their personal accounts, or to

10:38

pages that they administer. And through these different types of engagements,

10:43

you get a pretty clear idea of how material shared

10:46

to a page is being received by those engaging

10:48

with it. The first post to the page that received

10:52

significant attention was one I wrote about the

10:55

involvement of Pacific peoples in the history of

10:57

rugby league in New Zealand back in late 2017.

11:01

The post spoke of the post-war Pacific diaspora,

11:04

which saw many thousands of Pacific peoples

11:06

migrate from the tropical Pacific to these south

11:09

Pacific islands in response to sustained labour

11:11

shortages here. As many of these newcomers made their homes in

11:15

working class towns and suburbs, some embraced

11:18

rugby league, and the post spoke specifically to

11:21

the connection that developed between the game 5

11:24

and members of Tokoroa's Cook Island community who

11:27

established the Pacific Rugby League Club in that

11:29

south Waikato town in 1969.

11:34

Despite some anxiety as to what right I had to

11:36

tell the story of these people, the post about the

11:39

Pacific Rugby League Club and its connection to

11:41

Tokoroa's Cook Island community was

11:43

enthusiastically picked up by people associated

11:46

with the Club. One user whose father's dissertation I had

11:50

referenced in the post wrote, 'This is awesome,

11:53

truly is a proud and humbling moment. Thank you

11:56

for sharing'. Another follower responded, 'Good read, well done

12:01

Pacific', and then another expressed her pride in

12:03

the club's proud on-field record, 'There will never be another team like our

12:08

father’s. Chahoo!' [laughter]. In this way, the engagement options available

12:15

through Facebook mean that the platform can

12:17

provide a useful gauge on how material shared to

12:20

a page is received by those engaging with it.

12:24

I have found this to be particularly useful as a

12:26

means to assess the value of material that explores the popularity of rugby league in

12:31

communities that I have little or no connection to.

12:35

And as well as serving to affirm the value of my

12:37

research outputs, engagements with my project made

12:40

possible through social media have also brought

12:43

an incredible amount of value to the work. As already noted, a key goal in the development

12:50

of this project is to produce a book that bridges

12:53

the public/academic divide. And the book’s social

12:56

media presence has supported this goal. In his book Limbo: blue-collar roots, white-collar

13:01

dreams, the Italian American journalist Alfred

13:04

Lubrano reflects on some of the defining values of

13:07

blue-collar working-class Americans. Working class life is not an area of study that

13:12

has attracted much interest in New Zealand recently, as social class has been an

13:16

unfashionable tool for understanding these islands

13:19

for some time now. But much of what Lubrano has to say about America

13:24

rings true here with the key values he identifies

13:27

in his work including an emphasis upon family, a

13:31

deep respect for parents and elders, a strong

13:33

sense of loyalty and an open and honest manner

13:36

that is devoid of hidden agenda or subtext.

13:39

. In the local context we’d articulate that last

13:44

point by suggesting that working class people call

13:46

a spade a spade, or they say when shit stinks.

13:50

And in light of rugby league's historic association with working class people, my efforts

13:54

to write an accessible history have occasionally

13:57

benefited from this forthright manner. In 2019 I posted some material to the Facebook

14:02

page Across that decade there was a significant growth

14:10

in the size of New Zealand's underclass as the neoliberal economic agenda of the ‘80s and

14:15

‘90s devastated working class communities all

14:18

over New Zealand. As a result of the history being covered, some of

14:23

the issues discussed in the post were quite sensitive. And the text reflected that.

14:28

And in the comment section 6 below the post, an

14:30

active follower of the page offered some feedback.

14:34

'Hopefully the book is easier to read than this post', he wrote, 'a working man's game needs a

14:38

working man's book'. Now, from this comment, it was clear that I'd

14:43

failed to meet what is the central aim of my entire project.

14:46

So I was initially pretty disheartened after I

14:48

read that. But, if working on a project for

14:51

several years teaches you anything it is that

14:54

setbacks and criticisms provide a space for

14:57

growth, when we're able to view them in that

14:59

light. 'Thank you so much for your comment. It's tricky

15:06

to find a balance as some of this material is very

15:08

sensitive and requires quite a lot of thought.

15:12

But I do appreciate the feedback. Was it the use

15:15

of specific words that prompted your comment, or

15:18

the thrust of the piece as a whole?' And he replied, 'Just read too academically. But

15:24

if that's the route you're taking, that's fine'. I went on to explain that that's not the route

15:29

that I am taking [laughter] and I joke that I'm trying to find some mythical

15:34

middle ground between public accessibility and

15:37

academic credibility. And then out of the blue

15:40

someone else joined the conversation, describing

15:42

the original post as an awesome read and great

15:44

summation. 'I grew up in a working-class family',

15:47

the user explained, 'encouraged by my dad to read

15:50

all we could'. Now this comment was really affirming to me,

15:54

because I grew up around working class people who were not formally educated, but who placed a high

15:59

value on knowledge. So I wrote back, 'Thank you,

16:02

it is my hope that the book will honour the tradition of working class intellectualism that

16:06

was once upon a time strong around worksites,

16:10

like the wharves and the coal mines, so I really

16:12

appreciate your comment'.

16:21

And a few months later, after posting additional

16:23

material to the page, the same Facebook user who

16:26

had criticized the earlier post offered a

16:28

complimentary comment, 'Much more enjoyable this

16:31

time', he wrote, 'nice flow'. And there's a bizarre connection between league

16:37

and Once were warriors. I've been at Warriors games where people around me will just quote

16:41

verbatim whole sections of the movie.

16:46

Yes, fascinating connection. As well as providing space where I can access

16:52

feedback on my research outputs, social media has

16:55

also proven to be a powerful tool to engage with

16:57

people closely connected to the history that I'm exploring.

17:01

Of course, oral history interviews are a

17:03

traditional research tool that allows historians

17:06

to engage directly with people involved in the

17:08

topic under discussion. And in my opinion, nothing

17:12

can beat the experience of sitting down with someone and speaking to them about their lives at

17:16

length. But oral history is a labour and time intensive

17:20

approach to the study of the past. As a result,

17:23

there are limitations to the number of people

17:25

that you can realistically engage with through this tool of historical inquiry.

17:30

With social media however, historians can gain

17:33

access to a very large pool of people. And if the

17:36

tools are used with respect and humility, they can

17:39

provide a powerful space to tap 7 into the vast

17:41

amount of experiential knowledge that exists

17:44

amongst the people and communities who are intimately connected to the topics that we are

17:48

exploring. One of the most popular posts on the page, the

17:54

Facebook page to date, explored the popularity of

17:56

rugby league amongst New Zealand's patched street

17:59

gangs. The post reached 1000s of people, some of whom

18:04

were gang members, and it was generally well

18:06

received by them. Very interesting read one user

18:09

wrote, and another commented, 'What an awesome

18:12

read, the man Dennis O'Reilly', referring to one

18:15

of the people referred to in the text. As with the

18:18

Pacific rugby league example, engagements with

18:21

this post helped to affirm the value of the material to people closely connected to the

18:25

stories being told. And as the post's popularity grew, the comments

18:30

section below the post developed into a significant source of additional information about

18:35

the topic. One follower of the page responded,

18:38

'Fantastic read', and went on to tell me about the

18:40

presence of gangs and the league competition around where he lives. And another follower joined

18:45

in explaining that the Mob even had a second team

18:48

called the Young Bloods in that area. 'The Black

18:51

Power members used to play for Turanga Panthers.

18:53

And now some play for the Falcons', the user went on. 'Most are productive members of society, and

18:58

some aren't, just like any group.' Several other

19:03

users offered similar reflections on the presence

19:05

of gangs in their local competitions. And then an

19:08

entirely new comment thread popped up when

19:11

someone drew the connection between the game's popularity amongst gangsters in New Zealand and

19:15

the sport's presence in prisons. 'What about the

19:18

formation of the Parry team?', the user wrote. 'Paremoremo Prison inmates played in the Auckland

19:22

Senior B Comp. That would have been a collective

19:25

of different gang affiliates united by the game of

19:27

league.' In response to this comment, several

19:32

other users responded with additional information

19:34

about prison rugby league, including personal

19:36

reflections about playing for or against prison

19:39

teams. 'Yep, I played for the Paremoremo team a

19:42

few times,' one user wrote. ‘That was the most

19:45

wellbehaved team in the competition. Teina Pora

19:47

was hooker before he got out'. And another

19:50

replied, 'I played for Mount Crawford Prison when

19:52

they had a team. I think we were under Marist

19:54

Northern. And then in Rangipo, we played under

19:57

the Taupo Broncos, but after a couple of minor

20:00

incidents, the team was withdrawn from the comp.

20:04

Then the Turangi Dambusters started recruiting

20:06

inmates from Rangipo to play in their premier

20:08

team alongside some prison officers'. As you can

20:12

imagine the history of rugby league amongst

20:15

patched street gangs and in New Zealand's prisons

20:17

are topics with pretty short paper trails. There

20:20

is the odd newspaper article and news story about

20:23

prison rugby league. And the sport’s popularity

20:25

amongst gangsters is mentioned in the handful of

20:28

books that explore the history of patched gangs in

20:31

New Zealand. But beyond that, information about

20:35

these elements of rugby league's history in New Zealand are confined to the memories of those

20:39

involved, meaning that much of the detail that was

20:42

posted below the Facebook 8 post was new

20:45

information to me. In turn, the information and

20:49

detail offered by the page's followers in

20:52

response to the post significantly expanded my

20:55

understanding of this aspect of the game's social

20:57

and cultural history in New Zealand. And as the

21:01

Facebook page slowly developed a following, these

21:04

sorts of engagements where the audience of the

21:07

page were enhancing my knowledge of the sport’s

21:09

history became commonplace. Many followers of the

21:14

page have shared their personal experiences of

21:17

anti-league prejudice in secondary schools, and

21:20

one has spoken of the game’s informal exclusion

21:22

from the armed services. Facebook users have

21:25

shared photos to the page that speak to the

21:28

sport’s place in New Zealand society and culture.

21:31

And users have occasionally directed me to additional texts that offer more information

21:37

about a topic mentioned on the page. And when I

21:40

have made errors on the page, those mistakes have

21:42

been brought to my attention. In speaking to the

21:46

value that social media can bring to the work of 21st century historians, it is not my intention to

21:52

suggest that these platforms represent a substitute for more traditional research methods.

21:58

The research base of my book has been constructed

22:01

with the traditional tools of the historian:

22:03

primary documents, secondary sources and oral

22:05

history interviews. But it is my experience that

22:09

social media can serve to get our research

22:11

outputs before a very wide variety of people, and

22:15

the resulting engagements made possible on the

22:17

platforms can bring an enormous amount of value to

22:20

our work. I'll give you another example. The role

22:24

of women in the history of New Zealand rugby league is a theme that runs through ‘Rugby

22:28

League: a New Zealand history’, but again, it is a

22:31

topic that does not have a great deal written about it. In March 2019, I came across this

22:38

wonderful photo of a Manurewa Marlins team on

22:41

another rugby league Facebook page, with a comment

22:44

suggesting that it was a women's team from New

22:46

Zealand that toured Australia in 1976. I had come

22:51

across information regarding the significant

22:54

growth of women's rugby league in New Zealand in

22:56

the 1970s, but the first overseas tour by a

23:00

women’s side that I had previously heard about

23:02

didn't take place until the ‘90s. So I posted the

23:06

photo to the Facebook page with the comment, 'Wow,

23:08

what an amazing photo. If anyone out there knows

23:11

names of the players, the team's name and details

23:14

about the Australian tour, I'd love to find out

23:16

more'. And in response, a user commented below the

23:20

post identifying his mum as the person with the

23:23

cat. I then interacted with the user on Facebook, and

23:27

subsequently via email. And he shared photos of a

23:30

scrapbook that was put together by his mum, Ngaire

23:33

Fielding, after the team returned home. And the

23:37

scrapbook is a treasure trove of information,

23:40

including all the names of the women involved,

23:42

article clippings about the tour from local and

23:44

Australian newspapers, and a couple of extra

23:46

photos. As you can imagine, I was thrilled to make

23:53

this connection with Mrs Fielding's son, Rod. The

23:56

material he shared with me added significant

23:58

additional information to my project’s coverage

24:01

of the development of the women’s game in New Zealand. And what's more, I have not come across

24:06

any information about the Manurewa Marlins’ tour

24:09

from any other source, meaning that without

24:12

Facebook, this part of the game's local history

24:14

would have passed my project by. All of the

24:17

examples that I have spoken to so far highlight

24:20

the value of the book's social media presence to

24:22

the project itself. The page has been an

24:25

invaluable space to place my research outputs

24:28

before a wider audience that has attracted

24:30

engagement from academic historians, rugby league

24:33

historians, and people with a passion and an

24:36

interest in the game. This audience has brought

24:39

significant value to the work, both through their

24:41

engagements with the material shared and their

24:44

willingness to bring new information and sources

24:46

to my attention. But it is with some reflections

24:50

upon the personal value of the page to my experience of working on the book that I would

24:54

like to conclude this talk today. For those of

25:00

you amongst us who are historians, you will know

25:03

that our job or hobby can be a very isolating

25:06

one. There is a great deal of time spent by

25:09

ourselves and often in our heads, reading,

25:12

writing and thinking and then doing that over and

25:14

over again. But 'Rugby League: a New Zealand

25:18

History', the Facebook page, has offered something

25:21

of a counterpoint to this sense of isolation. I

25:24

still spend most of my working day alone, lost in

25:27

the past. But thanks to the Facebook page, I do so

25:31

in the knowledge that there are people out there who are actively interested in my efforts and

25:35

supportive of what I am doing. In response to a

25:40

post published at the end of 2018, an active

25:43

follower of the page thanked me for my dedication

25:46

and tenacity and providing something the game

25:48

needed in this country. And in response to a post

25:51

published last year, another follower of the page

25:54

wrote, 'Awesome work, bro, please don't stop'. I

25:58

have never met these people in person, but I have

26:00

felt a strong sense of warmth through their engagements with the Facebook page. So much so

26:06

that on those occasions when the cloud of

26:08

self-doubt has descended upon me, I have drawn on

26:12

comments like these to fuel my determination to

26:14

see this project through to its end. So, I would

26:18

like to conclude this talk today by acknowledging

26:20

all of those people who have engaged with the project's Facebook page over the last few years.

26:25

In doing so, you have made this project and my

26:28

experience of working on it so much better in so

26:31

many ways. I hope that when the book finally

26:35

comes out, you are able to take pride in the fact

26:37

that you helped play a hand in its development.

26:39

Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou e hoa mā. And thank you

26:45

to those in the audience and to those listening

26:47

to a recording of this sometime in the future for

26:49

your attention today. Thank you, Ryan. As promised, we have plenty of

26:58

time for questions and comments. And we've got a

27:02

couple of microphones which we can hand around to

27:04

people. Ryan, ngā mihi nui ki a koe, that was really

27:10

awesome. I was interested in how you're engaging

27:14

with people. And I see you've talked a little bit to Rod about this, about the effects of taking

27:20

images from online. How are you dealing with it

27:24

and in terms of your publication?

27:27

There's not a singular approach. I guess you have to have a different approach to the institutions

27:31

than the individuals but um, a lot of its just

27:35

relationships, I think, like you establish a

27:38

connection with people and they understand what you're about. And yeah, they can see that you're

27:47

driven by something which might align with making

27:53

them interested in supporting the kaupapa. And I

27:56

mean, I've just found, I think the, the Facebook

27:58

page has ticked along. For a while people have

28:01

seen what it's about, and people are interested

28:04

in engaging with it to an extent ‘cause um … yeah

28:12

there's nothing formal, just email him and be

28:15

like, this is all good. And yeah nothing formal,

28:18

just, it's quite a nice difference from that

28:21

formality that's expected within middle class

28:24

circles. But I see in terms of publication that you will

28:27

acknowledge, Oh, for sure. Yeah. Hard. Nah, got to do that. That's, that's

28:33

one thing I've found, too, that um identifying

28:36

the people in the photos is real important within that context too, just to sort of acknowledge the

28:42

massive contribution that they've played to the

28:44

story being told and to honour them, in that way,

28:47

so you know, make sure that the people whose

28:53

collection it comes from and also the people who are in the photo are acknowledged as much as

28:56

possible. Thank you. Hi, thanks for that. That was fantastic. I

29:02

probably have a follow on question from that because people are commenting and giving you extra

29:06

information. So you're going to be using that

29:08

information in the book as well. And how are you

29:11

kind of framing it? I haven't sort of used it specifically like to

29:16

reference it. But say the Pacific, the Pacific one

29:18

out of that post, I went to Tokoroa and did interviews. And there is that space to do that too

29:25

with the 11 prison league, I had sort of tied

29:29

up a few interviews, but it started to feel like

29:31

it was becoming a different topic entirely the

29:34

more I went down there, so I wanted to hint at it. But yeah, it's more just given me a more rounded

29:43

idea of the context like, yeah, how things are

29:47

being perceived from the community and how they're understood and just affirming what I've

29:51

been thinking or taking me in new directions. So

29:55

yeah, partly, it's just filling it out in my head.

29:59

And partly, it's leading on to new things. Yeah.

30:04

Additional interviews sorry, or additional

30:06

research. Yeah. Additional interview sorry, additional research. Yeah. Hello, Ryan. Hello,

30:13

Do you have any idea of the numbers of people

30:17

who've commented on the Facebook, or the

30:19

contributors who contributed to the Facebook?

30:21

I wouldn't know how many. There's probably like 20

30:27

to 30 active people who are often engaging with

30:30

it, and then I mean, that one about the gangs just

30:33

when that really ballooned out beyond anything

30:37

else I've ever done. So that was, that had just

30:42

hundreds and hundreds of comments, but um, in a

30:45

way, I just think it was like, they just like

30:47

being talked, like talked about like humans. And

30:50

that was really important to them. When you see

30:52

how the Herald writes about them, it's just a fucking disgrace. Hi, Ryan. Hi there. Carrie has

31:01

been a massive contributor to my project to both on social media and off. Sorry, thanks so much,

31:05

Carrie. Oh, that's all right. It's not about me. The

31:08

question though, I want to ask you, we all go

31:10

down as historians to the National Library and

31:13

look through Papers Past, through newspapers and

31:15

so on. I just wonder under the new norm now, how

31:19

much you look under the different social media

31:22

pages, the histories and so on, rather than the

31:25

old diggings that we go through. I don't really, I don't really explore people's

31:32

Facebook pages too much, I just 'like' lots of them. And as it comes up, I sort of will delve

31:36

into it. So that's really important. There is a

31:42

lot of content on 12 there. But a lot of it's very curated. So there's still a lot of value to

31:46

the, just the, the bedrock of historical sources.

31:52

But no, there's … I mean, social media often when

31:56

it is curated, it's taken, there's new meaning there too there's the meaning and the content, but

31:59

there's also the meaning in the storytelling, so, um, I mean, a huge amount of information to wade

32:07

through. And I've found a lot of gems. But yeah,

32:12

I'm not sure, how long are, I don't really know

32:16

how it all works. Is that digital stuff going to be there accessible always? Or is it going to get

32:20

lost? Or? So I don't? Definitely in the

32:24

contemporary moment, I find it useful, but how long it's going to be there for future historians

32:29

I don't know. It all feels very ephemeral,

32:32

really, and momentary. Sort of like everything

32:37

now. Awesome, Ryan. How often do you feel that you

32:45

need to post to keep this active? And what do you

32:49

see the future of it sort of building on your

32:52

previous answer? Do you hope to keep this going

32:56

after your book’s finished? No, I'd like to get off Facebook as soon as

33:00

possible. I only got back on Facebook because of

33:03

this. At least that's what I tell myself. So, no,

33:09

I'd like to keep using social media in the future,

33:12

I feel like it's a tool that I will use for

33:17

future projects. But in terms of this page, um, I

33:20

don't have any great plans for it. I, Ross was

33:25

just saying that there's a program now of placing

33:30

digital records into institutions. So that would

33:33

be real cool. But in terms of, yeah, I sort of

33:38

conceived of this as going alongside the life of

33:42

the project and finishing once the project's done.

33:49

Yeah, so I don't think it will, I think it will finish soon. But like I say, I definitely will be

33:53

using social media again, because it just

33:58

democratizes the whole process, I feel and I mean,

34:01

there's been awkward conversations that I've had to have on there, but that's alright, too. Because

34:06

at the end of the day, it's their stories, and

34:09

they should be able to hold me to account. So

34:13

yeah, this will stop soon, but I reckon it will be

34:16

part of my practice for a while. I watched a Herbs documentary recently. The

34:27

question of the dawn raids just fell out the

34:30

film, really, it was very much that and the

34:35

anti-apartheid work. I'm not asking you if, if

34:41

that's going to be in your book or anything like that. But it's, I mean, the Herbs were a political

34:49

band, I think as well, quite self-consciously.

34:52

So, and rugby league doesn't necessarily construct

34:58

itself in that sort of way. I’m sort of

35:00

interested in the way things, you know, might drop

35:06

out the discussions that you know, you might or

35:09

might not feel are essential to include, but it

35:13

could be anything, but for me, obviously, stuff

35:16

like the dawn raids are very important. Yeah, my next potential project is about Bob

35:22

Marley's influence and impact on New Zealand and

35:25

that came out of this, essentially, just

35:27

constantly seeing him appear on posters and

35:31

people's houses I visited or on their Facebook

35:33

feeds or. And it's very much the same world like,

35:37

City Newton the club down Auckland central was

35:41

closely connected to the people in the Hawkes at

35:43

Bastion Point and a lot of the, because there was

35:45

a maritime connection with the whānau there. And

35:48

so they, a lot of those guys were ‘Leaguies’ and

35:53

a couple of the Herbs played for City Newton. So

35:56

it's, it's, there were a lot of connections. And

36:00

I mean, the game was closely connected to working class life in Auckland. And so a lot of those

36:06

Pasifika Māori responses had a lot of trade union

36:10

support. So just the relationships were all

36:13

connected there. And so Will 'Ilolahia who is one

36:19

of the founders of the Polynesian Panthers, he was involved with league here and in Tonga. So the

36:23

connections are all there because league’s a game

36:27

for marginalized people because of what rugby

36:30

union has been, either has or, we've been told it

36:35

represents in this country. So that, that other

36:39

game represents, it brings those different people

36:42

together who felt a sense of alienation from the established order. So they're all, they're all

36:45

there. There or thereabouts for sure. I mean, same

36:51

scene, same scene. : Ryan, it's, it's interesting, you've been giving

37:01

a talk demonstrating the power of the internet as

37:04

a historical research tool, yet you're clearly

37:07

still thinking in terms of traditional book

37:09

publication. Have you considered the possibility

37:13

of publishing on the internet? You're probably

37:19

very keen to have a book, but even to publish

37:21

supplementary material that may not go in the book, or a summary? So that, because my

37:28

experience is that you have no idea what people

37:31

poking around on the internet are after and this

37:33

is a way of actually making people aware of the

37:36

work you've done. And even as a useful marketing

37:39

tool, if you have a summary there, you can point

37:42

people to your book. Yep. Yeah, there's definitely lots of interesting

37:45

conversations to be had in that regard with the publisher. But I guess I'm a writer rather than a

37:52

seller of books. I'd like to speak to the people

37:54

who know how to do all that stuff, and what that looks like in the contemporary, in the current

37:59

moment. I mean, there's a lot of scope for like,

38:04

linking some of the, there’s an amazing amount of

38:07

footage of the game, and you sort of had this footage from back in the day and just the stuff

38:12

that it captures around Carlaw Park, or around

38:14

these different places. It's interesting in and of itself, so there's a lot of scope for some online

38:20

content. But yeah, definitely keen to have that

38:23

conversation. But like I say I just finished

38:27

writing it and need to start turning my attention to that sort of stuff shortly. But thanks for the

38:32

idea. And the reflections.

38:37

Oh, kia ora Ryan, Andre Whittaker here from

38:39

Wellington Rugby League. Kia ora Andre. Good to see you again. More of a comment and

38:43

acknowledgment rather than a question. Just

38:47

firstly, acknowledgments for the work you're doing

38:49

and the book and, and, you know, subsequently,

38:52

the, the Facebook development that's brought more

38:55

people into reflecting on the game, I think. And

39:01

kind of following on from the last speaker how

39:03

it's opening a channel for people who may not

39:07

think about reading research documents or history

39:10

in a formal manner then say some of the people in

39:12

the room, but will engage in bite sized pieces of

39:19

history that interest them specifically, that

39:23

they can see on Facebook. And I think particularly

39:25

too as you look at some of, as you have mentioned, some of the history of the people

39:30

involved of rugby league around trade unions,

39:32

working class environments, and very much face to

39:35

face people. And, and as we also know, a lot of

39:40

those environments in terms of trade unions and

39:42

working class environments, aren't what they used

39:45

to be, and not a lot of the connection is

39:47

happening so great that you're opening a channel

39:50

that they can reengage. And also perhaps, you

39:54

know, that's another way that people who may not

39:58

normally think of this as something they would do, would start looking at formal research and

40:02

history reading. So just acknowledgement and

40:05

comments really, good stuff from a broken-nosed

40:08

rugby league player in the room. Yeah. Hey, that's, that means a huge amount to me,

40:14

Andre, thank you for that. I mean, that's part of

40:17

the, the idea really is to, a) move away from the

40:25

idea that thinking is for certain people, because

40:31

thinking is for everybody. And engaging with ideas

40:38

makes life richer. And just whenever I'd say to

40:43

people at university, 'Why aren't we writing so

40:46

people can read it?', they’d just be like, ‘They're not interested’. I was like, 'Nah, man,

40:50

like, you just make them feel like idiots, because

40:53

of the way that you write'. And, yeah, I mean, as

40:58

soon as I saw the academic value of the topic of

41:01

rugby league, it was obvious that it could be a

41:05

vehicle for getting people to think about it. To

41:09

think more, because they're already engaged in the, in the sport, they're already interested in

41:13

the sport. So that was an easy in. And then you

41:16

start talking about things like Māori urbanisation

41:18

or the diaspora of Pacific peoples, and that's

41:21

their life story. And so then that starts to

41:24

interest. So yeah, nah, it's really great that

41:29

that has sparked that interest because like I say,

41:33

I mean, I grew up with a granddad, who left school when he was 14, and he had an insatiable

41:38

intellectual curiosity. I didn't agree with hardly anything he came up with. But he, yeah, he made me

41:46

know that learning was for me, as well. And it

41:50

should be for everyone. We've got an education system that leaves a lot of people feeling like

41:54

idiots, and it's fucked up. It's unbelievable.

41:56

But that's the norm. And to me, knowledge is one

42:01

of the most beautiful things of life. So, it's a

42:04

privilege to be able to share it and absolutely

42:07

humbling that, that it's reaching receptive ears.

42:12

So, thank you for your comment. Kia ora Ryan, thanks for your talk and your

42:19

research. I'm just wondering about the geographic

42:23

spread of the respondents. So, are you getting quite a good spread across the country, you know,

42:27

teams from the South Island, Christchurch, the

42:30

West Coast, Wellington? Sounds like you've gotten

42:33

into some smaller spots. Has it been a good tool

42:38

for that? Yes, I guess when you say that, it has, because it

42:43

does have that immediate reach. There's no geographic limitations to it. I hadn't really

42:46

thought about that. But yeah there’s, I mean, I made a conscious effort of trying to get around

42:50

to Waitara, Greymouth, Hawke’s Bay, because I live

42:55

in Auckland. And that's where the game has always been most popular. I'm trying to make sure that

42:58

it's not an Auckland-focused history. And it's

43:02

been really useful as well for Australia because

43:04

there's this massive pool of working class New

43:07

Zealanders in Australia who essentially left here

43:10

when they deindustrialised the place. And went

43:13

and got work there. So, there's like they have

43:17

heaps, sort of particularly Māori rugby league

43:19

over there is really strong and it's often around.

43:23

In Sydney it's big, but also like west with the

43:25

mines and parts of Queensland, like there's a

43:28

whole other story there of like, a) the

43:30

increasingly trans-Tasman nature of Māori population, but also the migration of working

43:34

people when they destroyed the industry here they

43:37

all, a large number of them went there, like you talk to working class communities, and so many of

43:41

them will have uncles or cousins or people over

43:44

there. So that's been a real important connection,

43:47

and someone wants to have a book launch over there. So that's been all through that. So that's

43:53

been really useful for that, I guess, spreading

43:57

beyond New Zealand to Australia too. Which is

44:00

cool. Yeah, because the story sort of, New Zealand

44:03

rugby league history becomes an Australasian

44:06

story later on, really, because the game just

44:10

becomes entirely reliant on the money of the

44:12

broadcaster. Kia ora, I was wondering if you tried any social

44:18

media platforms other than Facebook, or if you

44:22

would try any others in future projects?

44:26

Yeah, well, I would. I don't, um, Facebook was

44:30

just the most obvious just because it allows ... I

44:33

guess the only one I'd think about it in comparison is Twitter. And it's just much shorter

44:37

space as you can write. And also, I'm a super

44:40

obsessive dude. So social media and me don't go very well together. So, I try to keep my

44:45

distance. But yeah, I think it would be, there

44:49

would be space for another social media platform.

44:54

But it was the platform that I was familiar with

44:59

and I got back on to do this project so … yeah,

45:04

Instagram could be good. I mean, any of you young

45:07

people into Bob Marley? You have much to say about Bob Marley?

45:12

Kia ora Ryan, Sione here. I don't have Instagram,

45:16

I'm still on Facebook. But thanks for an awesome

45:22

presentation. Thank you. I just want to touch on

45:24

one of the things you just mentioned. So you

45:26

talked about rugby league, of rugby league being

45:29

a platform for those who are alienated from the

45:32

established order. Can you unpack that just a

45:35

little bit more? Yeah I guess that's the sort of one of the

45:39

broader, probably the central thesis of the book

45:42

is to say, well, here's this game, which, when it

45:45

came here, it came with a whole lot of baggage

45:48

which existed in England, because it had split

45:52

from rugby union over the issue of player payment

45:57

in 1895. So it had a clear class dimension in

46:01

England, when it came here, it very much took that on too, because the way that the rugby union

46:06

compensated its players was, yeah, it was

46:11

essentially to under pay or not to compensate

46:15

them in full with the idea, or at least, the ethos

46:19

developed in a place where compensation wasn't that important, because everybody had plenty of

46:23

coin, but once working class people started playing it, that way of approaching the issue of

46:28

compensation just wasn't fair in their context

46:30

because they couldn't go and play football and be

46:33

away from work. And so there was this issue that

46:37

arose. That's what rugby league was formed over.

46:40

And so that same thing happened here. In the

46:46

early 20th century rugby union people at that time

46:52

were, I mean, they were pretty much just the

46:54

social and economic establishment, they were all

46:57

the same people. They all got educated at the same schools, and yeah, so that was, that was

47:05

their game and they really, when rugby league was formed, they really, really attacked it doggedly

47:12

and, and so all throughout the 20th century,

47:16

there's this, the game is confined to these

47:20

pockets of working class areas, or to say the

47:24

Kīngitanga in Ngāruawāhia Huntly, who are very,

47:28

historically very antagonistic towards the Crown,

47:30

or Irish Catholics in the South Island who

47:33

embraced rugby league in response to sectarianism

47:36

17 pandered to by rugby union, patched gangs. And

47:39

because rugby union is just part of New Zealand

47:41

Inc., right? It's just like the brand of New

47:43

Zealand now. And rugby league offers something

47:48

different. It's not necessarily better, but it's

47:51

way more real. So yeah, I think, I think that's

47:57

just a long history in this country because rugby union has been, has meant, has been, we've been

48:05

told it means so much to so many people. And

48:08

rugby league has ... I mean, it doesn't, it hardly

48:12

even features in the histories like, like, they're just, even the historians maintain the

48:18

marginalisation to be honest, it's so deep, they

48:20

don't even see it. It's yeah, but that's just my

48:24

contention, that class issues run through the

48:27

society so deeply that they are not seen because

48:31

they're just part of the woodwork. And so that's

48:35

why this project really attracted me because it was like, here's a game which is so clearly based

48:39

on class, like, nobody can deny it. And that's,

48:45

yeah, that's just one aspect of it. The

48:48

alienation, but I think because in the school

48:50

system, the councils, the people in authority,

48:52

really had it in for this game. And so it

48:55

developed that, it developed that identity both

49:05

without and within where people, they sort of

49:09

yeah, they use it as a marker of their identity as

49:11

standing at odds with that game, which

49:16

essentially, just bullies, just bullies. But

49:20

that's the state. That's what the state is, I

49:23

think. Well, thanks everyone, for some really interesting

49:28

questions and comments there. We’d better bring

49:30

things to a close. So I'd like to thank Ryan again

49:33

for what was a really fascinating and thought

49:35

provoking and entertaining talk today. So please

49:38

join me in thanking Ryan.

49:45

Thanks for listening to this New Zealand History podcast from Manatū Taonga. Don’t forget to

49:50

subscribe, and if you’re looking for other content

49:52

about New Zealand history, check out earlier talks

49:54

in the series. You can find them on your favourite

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podcast channels, just search for ‘New Zealand

49:59

History’. Mā te wā!