0:04

On this episode of Newtsworld. The

0:06

Heritage Foundation released a new comprehensive

0:09

report this week that details

0:11

the dual crisis for boys and men

0:14

in America entitled Men

0:16

Without Meaning the Harmful Effects

0:18

of Expressive Individualism.

0:21

Here to discuss the report, I'm

0:23

really pleased to welcome my guest, Brenda

0:26

Hafero. She is the Assistant

0:28

director and Senior policy Analyst

0:30

for the Simon Center for American

0:33

Studies at the Heritage Foundation. Brenda,

0:48

welcome, and thank you for joining me on Newts

0:51

World.

0:51

Thank you for having me.

0:53

Let's start at the beginning. What is the boy

0:55

crisis?

0:57

The boy crisis is answering

1:00

question, which is how

1:03

and why are boys and men

1:05

in America and sometimes around

1:07

the world struggling to flourish.

1:10

And it turns out that this is mental,

1:13

physical, economic, academic,

1:16

and spiritual. So, for example,

1:19

the second leading cause of

1:21

death for men under forty five

1:23

in the United States is suicide.

1:26

The IQ of our boys are actually

1:29

dropping, and in twenty twenty,

1:31

only twenty five percent of men ages

1:34

seventeen to twenty four qualified

1:37

for military service because

1:39

of mental, physical, and

1:42

drug abuse or a combination of those

1:44

factors. Forty one

1:47

percent of our girls are proficient in writing,

1:49

which is not good, but only

1:51

twenty percent of our boys are

1:53

proficient in writing, and men

1:56

now are an approximately forty percent

1:58

of college degrees at a time

2:01

when the earnings for folks with just

2:03

a high school diploma is dropping.

2:05

And then over seven million

2:08

men between the ages of twenty five

2:10

and fifty five have entirely

2:13

checked out of the workforce. So it's

2:15

far reaching, and there are a lot of examples

2:18

of why millions of men and boys are struggling.

2:21

If there are seven million men between

2:24

twenty five and fifty five who've

2:26

checked out of the workforce, what are they doing.

2:29

They're not spending their time, for the

2:31

most part, looking after children

2:33

or doing very good things.

2:35

So on average, they're spending

2:38

about five and a half hours

2:40

watching television and movies,

2:43

so a lot of the time is being spent

2:46

in front of screens. About

2:48

half of these men are on medication.

2:51

There's a lot of drug abuse going on,

2:54

and it feels like they're

2:56

just kind of listless and don't have

2:58

a lot of purpose and in

3:00

their life.

3:01

How much does the rise of the gaming culture

3:04

a part of that?

3:05

I think it's certainly part of that. So video

3:07

games are part of that. Screen time and

3:10

video games are becoming more

3:12

addictive as they're being developed,

3:14

so a lot of these men are indeed spending

3:16

time in front of video games.

3:18

In your report, you say that the single

3:21

direct driver of the boy

3:23

crisis is the absence of fathers. What's

3:26

the evidence for them?

3:28

That's right, So there's a lot of

3:30

evidence. So according to Will Ferrell

3:33

and John Gray's book The Boy Crisis,

3:35

the absence of fathers or

3:37

his presence impacts school

3:40

achievement, verbal intelligence

3:42

and quantitative abilities, school

3:45

dropouts, employment, suicide,

3:49

drugs, homelessness, bullying,

3:52

victimization, violent crime,

3:55

rape, poverty and mobility,

3:57

hypertension, trust, and

3:59

and they So it's a

4:01

lot of causes there and a lot

4:03

of effects. And as an

4:05

example, telomeres, which

4:08

develop early in life and predicts the

4:10

lifespan of children.

4:13

Children with father loss have

4:16

by age nine telomeres that are

4:18

fourteen percent shorter, and

4:21

that effect is forty percent greater

4:24

for boys compared to girls.

4:26

So the lack of fathers, about half

4:28

of kids today grow up in

4:31

two parent households, half of them

4:33

don't. The lack of fathers

4:35

is really the primary driver behind

4:38

the boy crisis.

4:40

Does that also then lead to dramatically

4:43

greater criminal behavior.

4:46

Yes, it certainly does so, strikingly.

4:49

In Brad Wilcox's book, he points

4:51

out that young men without

4:54

both parents are more

4:57

likely to go to prison than

4:59

to grab away from college.

5:02

So this has all happened

5:05

despite in some ways the

5:08

best intentions of those

5:10

who created the welfare state. Has

5:13

the welfare state actually been an

5:15

assistant to the decline of males.

5:18

It certainly has. So much of this is

5:20

driven by the absence of fathers, which

5:23

is of course tied to the breakdown

5:25

of the family or the lack of family

5:27

formation. So the welfare

5:29

state which developed in the sixties,

5:32

some of those policies were

5:34

actually only given to single

5:37

moms, and this created

5:40

for a time the phenomenon

5:42

of fathers actually leaving the home

5:44

or not being in the home so

5:47

that moms could get assistance with their

5:49

children. And because of

5:51

that, that caused marriage

5:53

rates to decline and caused

5:56

even more of a breakdown of the

5:58

family. And we know that parents

6:01

that live together but don't get married,

6:03

those relationships are much

6:06

less stable than parents that do get

6:08

married. So the breakdown

6:10

of the family was caused

6:13

by the welfare state that was an impetus,

6:15

and at this point it's actually

6:18

become the norm, especially for the

6:20

lower class and for the poor. They're

6:23

not getting married at all, so

6:25

it's just become the way that things are

6:27

done, which was precipitated by

6:29

the welfare state.

6:30

In some ways. I was really

6:33

first bought into this by

6:35

Losing Ground by Charles Murray, where

6:38

he pointed out that the actual effect

6:40

of welfare had been to

6:43

break up the family, to reduce the

6:46

chances of getting out of poverty, and

6:48

to create habits which almost

6:50

guaranteed you would stay on poverty. And

6:53

I thought that Murray's book was

6:55

a major factor in how we design

6:57

welfare reform, which was

6:59

designed parents back to work and

7:02

to get children back into an environment where

7:04

work was a norm. The other big

7:07

impact for us was Marvin Olaski's

7:09

The Tragedy of American Compassion. More

7:12

Olaski argues that

7:15

bureaucratic compassion and

7:17

the transfer of money to the poor were

7:20

exactly what the classic nineteenth

7:23

century reformers hated because

7:26

it basically made it easier to stay poor

7:29

and as a result, guaranteed an

7:31

increase in poverty behavior and

7:33

an increase in the culture of poverty. I

7:36

mean, does that fit what your studies have indicated.

7:39

Yes, So welfare reform in the nineties

7:42

happened, and it tied welfare to work,

7:44

and we actually saw after that

7:46

happened that the decline

7:49

in marriage started to level off. Right,

7:51

it had been just devastating

7:54

to marriage rates, and

7:56

it creates intergenerational cycles

7:59

of poverty. The success

8:01

sequence, which is get at

8:03

least a high school diploma, get

8:05

a job, get married, and

8:07

then have children the success

8:10

sequence. If you do that, you

8:12

have about a three percent chance

8:14

of ending up in poverty. So it's a

8:16

really powerful tool.

8:18

In a funny way, though our policies

8:21

have been anti marriage,

8:24

and that we've said in order to get the subsidy,

8:26

you have to be living by yourself.

8:30

On the other hand, it's been pretty hard

8:32

to argue unless you go to

8:34

a guaranteed income. It's hard to try

8:36

to figure out how you design

8:38

a program which both provides resources

8:42

and discriminates in favor of marriage

8:44

rather than against it.

8:46

Right, I agree, And there are still marriage

8:49

penalties on the book, especially

8:52

for the lower class, ironically for the

8:54

poor when it comes to healthcare,

8:57

and so we did eliminate some of those marriage

9:00

penalties for the middle class and for the upper

9:02

class, but we haven't for the poor.

9:04

All this, it seems to me, and I think your

9:06

study indicates is compounded

9:10

by the education

9:12

system's impact on young males. Can

9:14

you describe some of

9:16

how the education system has an unintended

9:19

consequence than dealing with young

9:22

males.

9:23

Right, So the primary driver is the

9:26

absence of fathers, but I think education

9:28

system contributes its fair

9:30

share. So some of these trends

9:32

are long term and some of these

9:35

trends are short term. So

9:37

we now spend more time in

9:39

school, which has led to over credentialing

9:42

and the prioritization of academic

9:45

standards over development standards.

9:47

Things like recess, things like free

9:50

play, which are really important for children,

9:52

both boys and girls, but boys as well.

9:55

And the progressive

9:58

style of education has really come

10:01

to predominate in our schools, and

10:03

we've shifted from a free range

10:05

parenting style to a safety

10:08

culture. So boys

10:10

now spend a lot of times in classrooms

10:12

where they are forced to sit still for long

10:15

periods of time. We've declined

10:17

recess. We've implemented

10:19

zero tolerance policies since

10:23

the nineties, which were meant

10:25

to be a reaction to the fear of

10:27

school shooters, and those have

10:29

punished some of the normal antics

10:31

of boys. And we've seen, for

10:33

example, that boys

10:36

who commit the same behaviors as girls

10:38

are actually punished more severely.

10:41

So there may be some teachers who

10:43

expect that boys and girls

10:46

should behave exactly the

10:48

same and the classroom environment

10:50

is just overall can be very challenging

10:53

for boys because their prefrontal

10:56

cortex takes two years

10:59

longer to dive developed than it does

11:01

for girls, So sometimes the

11:03

behavior skills are a challenge,

11:05

and teachers tend to factor

11:08

in good behavior to their grading.

11:11

You'd almost be better off to

11:13

design a system for males and

11:15

a system for females and recognize

11:18

that they're going to be substantially different.

11:20

Right, So we do have studies. We know certain

11:23

pedagogical techniques work

11:25

better for boys, so free

11:27

movement works better for boys.

11:30

Competition tends to work better

11:32

for boys. They need structure,

11:35

they need discipline, and girls

11:37

need many of these things too, but boys

11:40

especially need them. And then boys

11:42

tend to be interested sometimes

11:44

in different books from girls, so

11:46

they like hero stories that tend to like

11:49

nonfiction.

11:50

Brenda. One of the sort of things you think parents

11:52

can do and what kind of schools should

11:54

they be looking at in order to

11:56

help young males.

11:58

I think the schools that show

12:00

promise are classical

12:02

schools right now, and also Montessori

12:05

schools. Classical schools

12:07

are experiencing a resurgence

12:10

since COVID, But I

12:12

think a lot of parents are seeing

12:15

this as well, that classical schools

12:17

are particularly good for boys. So

12:19

the things that need

12:21

to be prioritized when educating

12:24

boys, it's kinetic education,

12:27

so free movement, pre play, nonfiction

12:31

books, books about heroes are the ones that

12:33

boys tend to like, having

12:36

a teacher that is actually

12:39

likes boys. So, since the sexual revolution,

12:42

and since the idea that boys and girls are the

12:44

same, three out of four

12:46

teachers are women,

12:48

and they've been educated in schools

12:51

that promote gender ideology,

12:54

so sometimes they expect the boys and

12:56

girls to behave the same

12:59

and boys tend to respond also to

13:01

competition.

13:20

In a sense, isn't that almost

13:23

in direct conflict with the current fad

13:26

though we're all the same.

13:28

Yes, this is a big part of it.

13:31

Many of these challenges can be traceable

13:33

to the sexual Revolution, and

13:35

part of the sexual revolution was

13:39

Simone de Beauvoir put forth the notion

13:41

that sex and gender can be separated

13:44

from one another, and that it's not tied

13:46

to biology, that the differences

13:49

between men and women are

13:51

a result of social norms.

13:54

And this underlies so

13:56

much of what has happened to young men

13:58

and boys, because once we

14:00

think that the sexes are the same, that

14:03

means that mothers and fathers are interchangeable,

14:06

and they're not. Both of them contribute

14:08

in unique and essential ways

14:11

to the raising of children. Once

14:14

we accept that, we believe in the classroom

14:16

that boys and girls should behave the same

14:19

and they don't, And some of the policies

14:22

that we've implemented as

14:24

a result of that have been particularly

14:26

damaging for boys.

14:28

So, in a sense, the effort to create a

14:32

monosexual culture, if you will, ultimately

14:36

is shaped by women and

14:38

defined as an almost anti male culture.

14:41

I would say the culture has not been

14:44

good about holding up

14:46

positive views of masculinity.

14:49

So the first and most important

14:52

role model that a boy has is

14:54

of course his father. He

14:56

learns how to be a good man by

14:58

looking at the witness of that example

15:01

and imitating it. But

15:03

then we've undermined male role models

15:05

in so many other areas. So

15:08

the adult dad has become such

15:11

an obvious example in our culture, and

15:13

things like Everybody Loves Raymond,

15:16

where the father is incompetent

15:18

and unreliable, he can't do anything

15:21

with the help of his wife. That's

15:23

a view we hold up. And then there's

15:25

the toxic masculinity narrative,

15:28

which tells boys that testosterone

15:31

is basically a poison and

15:33

doesn't encourage them to grow up to be

15:35

good men. They think that there's something wrong

15:38

with them and they're not getting encouragement.

15:41

And then we've undermined male

15:44

mentorship programs as well, things

15:46

like boy Scouts and free movement

15:49

in sports and those sorts of things, and

15:52

those are really important, especially

15:55

if dad is not around, because

15:57

those provide chances for

15:59

boys to get together and to see

16:01

male role models and benefit from

16:04

that guidance.

16:05

One of the things which is sobering you point out

16:07

of the report is that there

16:10

is an increasing tendency to sort of medicate

16:13

young males into not showing

16:15

male behavior, the

16:17

use of Riddlin and other things that your

16:20

report suggests that some drug

16:22

rehabilitation centers, thirty to

16:25

fifty percent of the adolescents are

16:27

now basically being medicated. They're

16:29

not learning how to live with reality. They're learning

16:32

how to avoid it.

16:34

Right, I agree, and that's certainly true

16:36

in our education system where we've seen

16:38

the diagnosis of ADHD

16:41

and add spike and

16:43

so many of our boys. They're

16:45

being put on Riddlin and these other

16:47

drugs to ensure that they're calm

16:50

and well behaved in the classroom,

16:52

instead of us revisiting

16:55

the structure of the classroom and

16:57

our pediological techniques in

16:59

order to cater to boys.

17:02

How is all this going

17:04

to ultimately change marriage behavior?

17:07

If you end up with a dramatically higher

17:09

percentage of women with advanced

17:12

degrees and a

17:14

much smaller pool of males with

17:17

advanced degrees, what happens

17:19

to the traditional classic bonding patterns

17:22

in terms of leading to marriage.

17:24

I think we're already seeing the effects

17:26

of that, and that marriage is declining

17:29

and people are getting married

17:31

later in life. So this

17:34

really started to happen with millennials.

17:37

Millennials, the disproportion

17:39

between the education of men and

17:42

boys are men and women, and

17:45

the income levels has really

17:47

sharpened. So, according to Gene TWANGI,

17:50

every single penny of the rise

17:52

in young adults income is due to

17:54

women's income. In the millennial generation.

17:58

And this is challenging

18:01

because women tend to

18:03

be hypergamous, meaning they want

18:05

someone who is equal or above

18:07

them in educational attainment

18:10

and income. So, for example,

18:12

women are ninety one percent

18:15

more likely to swipe right

18:17

on Tinder when a man has a master's

18:20

degree than when he has a bachelor's

18:22

degree.

18:24

That would encourage cheating and always

18:26

listing yourself as having a master's degree.

18:30

That's right, everyone can have a master's

18:32

degree when it's virtual. Right,

18:36

That is actually happening as well,

18:38

and online dating. Online dating is

18:40

very bad in many ways. Over

18:42

all the platforms, there's some differences,

18:44

but they're not good because they

18:46

can encourage what you're talking about, narcissistic

18:49

behavior. They can encourage lying

18:52

all those sorts of things, and then women

18:55

tend to get a false view of men because

18:58

they're looking at these men online who

19:00

are doing all these sorts of terrible things

19:02

and think that's what men are really like. So

19:05

an an inanimity does not encourage

19:08

good behavior. We've seen that in social media

19:10

and online dating.

19:12

But your core point, which I think is really

19:14

important and us into a controversy,

19:17

women in a sense are genetically

19:22

biased in favor of

19:24

finding somebody who has

19:27

higher education, greater income, and

19:30

a sense can protect them and can help them,

19:32

which goes directly against the

19:35

whole desire for independence and for the

19:37

modern woman who doesn't need any

19:39

of these things. But in fact,

19:41

if that's an underlying pattern, then

19:45

the way we're operating now as a society is

19:47

exactly counterintuitive. We're

19:49

going to produce and you already see this with African

19:51

Americans, a huge number

19:53

of people who are very talented and

19:56

have good incomes, who are female, with

19:58

a much smaller pool of

20:00

available males that they

20:02

could possibly marry given that bias.

20:06

Right, I think women want someone

20:08

who's going to be a strong partner

20:11

and is going to be a partner, not

20:13

someone that they have to look after

20:15

themselves. Right, We've seen this narrative. So

20:18

when men are struggling, which they

20:21

are academically, physically, mentally,

20:23

spiritually, which we've talked about, women

20:26

are without partners, and

20:29

especially if they're financially

20:31

stable, they have so many other opportunities,

20:34

so they're looking at these men and saying,

20:36

this man is not someone I want to marry,

20:39

which has led to, especially

20:41

in the lower classes, this phenomenon

20:43

of women who are having children

20:46

outside of marriage, because they

20:48

don't view the father of their children

20:51

as a responsible and reliable

20:53

partner, and so the

20:55

sexes are tremendously interdependent.

20:59

It's not just about finances.

21:01

Men and women have things to learn

21:04

from each other and from that friendship

21:06

and support. We love our fathers,

21:09

our sons, our brothers.

21:11

They contribute so much to

21:14

our lives. And I think being

21:17

grateful for a father's

21:19

sacrifices and what he brings financially

21:22

is true. But that's not all that fathers

21:24

and husbands do for women.

21:26

They contribute in so many more ways

21:29

and contribute to human flourishing.

21:32

So, getting back to the narrative

21:34

that women and men are interdependent,

21:37

and especially when it comes to

21:40

the raising of children, having

21:42

both a mother and a father is essential.

21:45

In your report, the Heritage Foundation really

21:47

has a whole series of very

21:49

practical positive steps

21:52

that should be taken. Could you just walk

21:54

us through the sort of key breakthroughs

21:56

that you think would make us so much

21:58

healthier country and park

22:00

by reintroducing males to

22:03

pursuing life and being engaged and

22:06

having a sense of self esteem.

22:08

Right, So this, as you can imagine,

22:10

since we've talked about the breath of this problem.

22:13

There needs to be comparable

22:15

solutions that are going to be in a lot of

22:17

different areas, but to name

22:19

a few, the most important is

22:22

to revitalize marriage

22:24

and fatherhood, and to hold up

22:27

fatherhood and having a

22:29

family as actually fulfilling

22:31

and such an important part of the

22:33

purpose of life that men are searching

22:36

for, not just men, but men and women.

22:38

And this is particular and important

22:41

because now so many of

22:43

adults have come from broken

22:45

homes themselves, and when

22:47

that happens, those adults

22:50

can have a negative

22:53

view of marriage. They're not quite sure

22:55

necessarily how to work through

22:57

communication in a healthy manner

23:00

because they miss that model of

23:02

what a good marriage is. So we

23:04

need to have more of a conversation about

23:07

what the purpose of marriage is and

23:09

what to prioritize when you're looking

23:11

for a spouse. Another

23:14

solution is school choice, of course,

23:16

because it's really important for parents

23:19

to be able to go to a school and

23:21

evaluate a school and say, is

23:23

this a good environment for my

23:26

boy, for my specific boy. Are they

23:28

prioritizing discipline,

23:30

are they allowing for competition and

23:33

for recess? And do they

23:35

have books on the curriculum that my

23:37

child is going to be interested in. Then

23:40

a third one would be to get away

23:42

from the narrative that there's

23:45

one track in life, which is to go

23:47

to college, and to actually open

23:50

up vocational schools and apprenticeship

23:53

programs. Brad Wilcox indicates

23:55

in his book that the Department of Education

23:58

spends seven twenty nine

24:00

times more on colleges and

24:02

universities than vocational

24:05

education in high schools and

24:07

community college. And

24:09

the economic opportunities for

24:12

men with a high school diploma or less

24:14

have shifted because of economic shifts,

24:17

and so that's really a challenge.

24:19

And then finally, I would say that we

24:22

really need to prioritized

24:25

embodied interactions. So

24:27

get away from the screens, get

24:30

towards free play and

24:32

bodied play, get away from

24:35

dating apps, and get back to

24:37

face to face interactions.

24:53

You're playing a major role in

24:56

helping shape public policy, and

24:58

you come at it from a very interesting background.

25:00

What got you personally engaged

25:04

in this kind of activity. I mean,

25:06

what you're doing is very important for the whole country.

25:08

Well, thank you. I have written on feminism

25:12

and critiques that and I

25:14

started getting interested in this topic

25:17

because once you're thinking about

25:19

women, you have to think about men

25:21

because we're so interdependent and

25:23

you end up reading that literature as

25:25

well. And I came across Warren

25:28

Pharrell's book The Boy Crisis, and

25:30

it's really eye opening

25:32

because the statistics are

25:34

just staggering about

25:36

the importance of fathers and

25:38

not enough talk is

25:40

happening about this problem for how severe

25:43

and how important it is. And

25:45

you can miss it depending on your

25:49

perhaps your demographics, your stage

25:51

in life, and maybe not see it for

25:53

what it is. And once you start

25:55

to see the economic

25:58

shifts, the education shifts, the

26:00

breakdown of the family, and how far reaching

26:02

it is, we need to be doing

26:04

more work to try and combat this devastating

26:07

effects.

26:09

You've work at Heritage, but

26:11

if I understand quickly, you also do some work

26:13

at Hillsdale.

26:15

I was a James Madison Fellow

26:17

with Hillsdale. It's a program for young

26:20

public policy professionals.

26:22

Did you find that helpful?

26:24

I did find it helpful because you're having

26:27

discussions with other

26:29

folks in these areas and learning

26:31

their perspectives and refining

26:33

your ideas. Right, that's what freedom

26:36

of speech, that's what deliberation does.

26:38

So it's always helpful to get in a room

26:41

with some other smart people and sharpen

26:43

your ideas.

26:44

We have somebody who came to us as an intern

26:46

and now is with us as a policy

26:48

person who came out of Hillsdale in

26:51

Michigan. And we have another person is with us

26:53

who's now going to Hillsdale in Washington

26:55

in their graduate program. It seems

26:57

to be a very rigorous and very

27:00

serious institution.

27:02

I would wholeheartedly agree they

27:04

are doing good and serious work at Hillsdale.

27:07

It's a nice counterpart to Heritage, which

27:09

I've known Heritage since Fulner founded

27:11

it. Its impact on the country has

27:13

been really pretty profound on

27:16

a whole range of policies.

27:18

Yes, I'm very grateful to be there,

27:20

and it gives you also a sense of responsibility

27:24

because we are doing good work,

27:26

and if you work at Heritage, you

27:28

are very privileged and have

27:30

an obligation to try and help the country.

27:33

So, in a sense, the next

27:35

administration could develop a

27:37

kind of male reinforcement strategy

27:41

and have a series of initiatives designed

27:44

to rebuild the self

27:46

sufficiency in the sense of direction

27:49

and the sense of engagement among

27:51

young males in a way that may be an integral

27:53

part of our anti drug program because

27:57

having people having greater self esteem,

27:59

I suspetfect will be correlated with less

28:01

likely suicide and less likely

28:04

drug abuse.

28:05

Absolutely, about seventy percent of

28:07

the opioid overdoses were

28:10

men, so this is certainly part of

28:12

that issue. This is very much

28:14

a cultural problem, and

28:16

we need cultural solutions. But I

28:18

do think there is room for public policy

28:21

on these issues. And some of

28:23

them are not new solutions.

28:26

They're old solutions, things like school

28:28

choice that we just haven't been able

28:30

to implement their things

28:32

like reinvigorating mail

28:35

only spaces. So there is room

28:37

for some public policy initiatives here.

28:40

I look forward to it, and I'm confident that Heritage

28:42

will be providing some of the guidelines

28:45

for those kind of policies for the next Congress

28:48

and the next administration. Brenda, I want

28:50

to thank you for joining me. Your new

28:52

report, Men Without Meaning

28:54

the Harmful Effects of Expressive Individualism

28:57

is available at Heritage dot org

29:00

and we'll also have it featured on our

29:02

podcast show page. I really appreciate you

29:04

taking the time to walk us through this

29:07

very important, literally at the heart

29:09

of who we are conversation.

29:11

Thank you for having me.

29:15

Thank you to my guests. Brenda Hafera. You

29:17

can read her new report Men

29:20

without meaning the harmful effects of expressive

29:22

individualism on our show page

29:25

at Newtsworld dot com. Newsworld

29:27

is produced by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia.

29:30

Our executive producer is Guarnsey

29:33

Sloan. Our researcher is

29:35

Rachel Peterson. The artwork

29:37

for the show was created by Steve

29:39

Penley. Special thanks to the

29:41

team at Gingish three sixty. If you've

29:43

been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple

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Podcasts and both rate us with five

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stars and give us a review so

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others can learn what it's all about. Right

29:53

now, listeners of Newtsworld can

29:55

sign up for my three free weekly

29:58

columns at ginglishree sixty dot com com

30:00

slash newsletter. I'm Nutkngriich.

30:02

This is neutral

30:16

M