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1:19

Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric and I'm

1:21

Bozma st. John and this is Back to

1:23

Biz with Katie and Bose. So

1:27

this is it. It's our first episode

1:29

of Back to Biz. We've been talking

1:31

about it for some time now, and it's

1:34

really happening. I'm super

1:36

jazz to get this party started. I know

1:38

me too, and it feels like it's the perfect

1:41

time to do it. Um. I'm still looking

1:43

forward to all the conversations that we're gonna have

1:45

here. You know, we've got ten episodes

1:47

to interview leaders in business, tech,

1:50

public policy, as well as entrepreneurs,

1:52

pop culture, trailblazers and just

1:55

all around huge big thinkers.

1:57

Well, and we could really use some big

1:59

thing ers at this moment in our nation's

2:02

history. Bows, and we're gonna be talking to

2:04

them about how they're responding

2:06

to these big societal shifts the pandemic

2:09

has brought about, about how they're adjusting

2:11

to this new way of life, often not just

2:13

through adaptation, but innovation

2:16

too. In many ways, Bose, I

2:18

think this has been a terrible thing, but it's

2:20

also a time for reassessing,

2:23

recalibrating, and in some cases,

2:25

I think rethinking everything that's

2:28

right that's right. And our first guests I think

2:30

really sets the tone for this series as

2:32

someone who's forward thinking and innovative

2:35

and just all around so cool.

2:37

She's so in demand, you know, I mean, she's a tech

2:39

journalist. Kara Swisher, Kara,

2:43

al Right, I'm here, Yeah,

2:45

I'm here, I'm here here. Hold on, Oh are you

2:47

cranky? No, not cranky.

2:49

I'm tired. I've had days. Let me get my

2:52

hold little one. Sec here

2:55

you are, and the sunglasses, the aviators

2:58

come on, I mean gonna

3:00

I'm gonna sleep during the internet. Wait, let

3:02

me be the picture in your Kara

3:05

is I think the personification

3:08

of the modern media Maven

3:10

and very good at alliteration too, because

3:12

bos this woman is everywhere.

3:16

She's a columnist for The New York Times.

3:18

She's founder and editor at large of the tech

3:20

site Recode. When she's not writing,

3:23

she's podcasting, the co host

3:25

of the award winning Pivot podcast. She's

3:27

the host of Recode Decode, and she's

3:30

also cooking up a new podcast for

3:32

The New York Times, which is still unnamed

3:34

right now, that's set to release this

3:37

fall. I don't know how she does it. And on

3:39

top of that, she's a mother of three, two

3:41

high schoolers and a relatively new baby.

3:44

She's quarantining in Washington, d C.

3:47

I love Kara. She's such a badass,

3:49

and more importantly, bows she thinks

3:51

I'm a badass. But I know you

3:53

got to know Kara recently

3:56

in one of your latest gigs, right,

3:58

yeah, that's right. Well you know what, We're about to be a trio

4:01

of badasses. I'll tell you that because I've

4:03

known Kara for some time.

4:05

I met her at first when I was the

4:07

chief brand officer at Uber and I had just

4:09

stepped into a big pile of it, and

4:12

she wanted me on stage at Recode,

4:14

which is our conference. It was September

4:17

sev and I went in really prepared

4:19

to face the fire. You know, I knew she was really

4:21

going to give it to me. So I was prepared for

4:24

Kara, But you know who I wasn't prepared for her

4:26

Mama, her mother, who

4:29

I met backstage before I even got on

4:31

stage, and she gave it to me

4:33

good. I mean, she was just giving me all the questions

4:36

and Kara, Yes, Kara had to come and

4:38

break us up. You know, I think she was probably stealing some

4:40

of Kara's questions. So well, I guess

4:42

the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, right,

4:44

those That's exactly right, because

4:46

I think Kara is an amazing journalist

4:49

and she's really feared

4:51

but also revered and that's a

4:53

tough combination. And we thought that

4:56

she was the perfect way to kick off our

4:58

debut podcast together her. She has

5:00

her finger on the pulse, not just a Silicon

5:03

valley, but I think the business world

5:05

in general, and the world of

5:07

pop culture like you do, Bows right,

5:10

and fashion because you know what, her affinity

5:13

for aviators makes a lot more sense.

5:15

Now I'll tell you that. Ye all right, last

5:17

show or a movie that you loved. Oh

5:20

god, there's so many um I think I

5:22

liked um Oh gosh. That's

5:24

while I was waiting for Top Gun Too, So I don't know

5:26

what to say. I love Top Gun to. I was so excited

5:28

for the sequel and Wonder Woman too. I know it

5:30

sounds crazy, I'm a big Top Gun fan. Anyway,

5:33

let's get to it, Kara

5:36

Swisher. I am super excited because

5:38

you are our debut guest

5:41

on Bound Biz with Katie

5:43

and Bows get it Bows. Oh

5:47

my god, Like the pandemic

5:49

has gotten to you. Katie, Oh

5:51

my god, let me look at Let

5:54

me look at your bookshelves for those Emmys and those

5:56

Emmys back there. What's going on? Just if

5:58

you Kara, just there, just but

6:01

you and those know each other already, don't

6:04

How did you guys get to know each other? Of

6:07

all things? Arianna Huffington's introduced

6:09

us um At at a graduation

6:12

she was speaking at in San Francisco

6:14

for a private girls school and

6:17

and she, uh, she was she

6:20

was hiring you to run marketing for

6:23

or to do marketing for uber Um.

6:25

And so we met there while Arianna was addressing

6:28

the young lady the young rich ladies of San Francisco

6:30

essentially, And I think your daughter went there eventually

6:33

at some point we're going to do

6:35

it, but then never moved up to Sanaa anyway.

6:38

So we met and but at uber and I listened.

6:40

She had nothing to do with the disaster that was uber.

6:43

She tried her best, Uh, sort

6:45

of got sucked into a really really

6:48

toxic situation. I think that you came

6:50

in post I think post

6:52

when everything was already headed downhill exactly.

6:55

But you know, it's like the I was telling

6:57

Katie that you were the

7:00

first person that I talked to when I decided

7:02

to leave. Ah, oh, that's rightly. I

7:04

wrote the story inside. Yeah, you know interesting.

7:06

I talked to Francis Free the other day,

7:08

who was also another pry excuse

7:11

me the other day when who was another person? It

7:13

was a Harvard Business School professor. You know, all these

7:15

women came in to try to clean up that mess, and

7:18

uh, and we're not successful. And of course Dark

7:20

Coaster Shaw Heat today had to lay off

7:22

I think three thousand people. It's some enormous

7:24

number of people that people have been laid off, and they're closing

7:26

down some businesses like freight. Um.

7:28

It was at the time then everything was going

7:31

great, and there was it was a culture problem that

7:33

was born of the CEO, Travis

7:36

klink and and the people he hired and

7:38

trying to turning around a

7:41

success, turning around a success

7:43

into toxicity. And so you were trying

7:45

to do that, and to me, it was like putting lipstick

7:48

on I don't know what, on a coronavirus

7:50

or something. It was just not good. That's not

7:53

to make a joke about, but really you were trying to market

7:55

something that had a fundamental issue

7:58

with its business and now of course it's because

8:00

of real issues of health and

8:02

other things. Well, we're excited

8:04

to talk to you, Kara, because a

8:07

lot of the columns you've been writing in the New York

8:09

Times or precisely some of the

8:11

things we want to address as

8:14

we go about this quote

8:16

unquote new normal or new new

8:18

future is ray Dalia said, that's

8:21

right. That's really how how

8:23

technology has been affected

8:25

and how technology can help or

8:27

in cases when it hurts. But before we

8:29

talk about business, I know we wanted

8:31

to talk about education. Sure,

8:34

yes, well, I mean that's the thing. I mean, we're all adjusting,

8:36

right. You mentioned you have a you

8:39

know, kids who are looking

8:41

towards graduation, et cetera. What

8:43

what do you think is going to happen? Um?

8:45

In terms of college, I mean virtual

8:48

college or you thinking of gap years?

8:50

Like what what do we do or what does what does

8:52

your your child do? I'm

8:55

leaving it up to him. He's gotten into two

8:57

schools and he's gonna be going to n y U

9:00

and so of course that's hot spots Central

9:02

um. And I don't

9:05

know. I'm going to leave it up to him. He every every

9:07

day is different. He's like, I don't know if I want to do school

9:09

on zoom. I think it's gonna gonna have to and there's gonna

9:11

be definitely different. It's not gonna be the freshman experience

9:14

that that everybody got to have.

9:16

Um, And so I'm going to leave it up to him. And although

9:18

I don't know what schools are going to do in terms of everybody

9:20

taking a gap yere people take

9:22

a gap year, that changes all the dynamics

9:25

to the school. UM. So I'm going to let

9:27

him decide. He's a he's a fine young man and

9:29

he will figure out what he wants. He's definitely handling

9:32

it better than most people. Yeah, yeah, but

9:34

I know that the you know, it's interesting.

9:36

There are all kind of creative solutions that educators

9:38

are going to create, right

9:41

and I guess to engage their students.

9:43

I mean, you said in a

9:45

recent column, I know of no parents, including

9:47

those living and what are considered good school

9:50

districts, who are happy with their children's

9:52

online classes terrible. So

9:54

so what happens? I mean, what are the innovative

9:56

ways you think that educators are going

9:58

to be able to gauge? I don't

10:01

think I think it teaches us that analog learning

10:03

is so important. I mean, I think they've been trying with these

10:05

zoom classes, but they're not engaging at all, and they're

10:07

not They're trying. I have friends who are

10:09

teachers and they're trying their best. Um,

10:11

but I think it's very hard to engage people without

10:13

the one on one that. That's what it shows

10:16

to me, like that, it's some things are not able

10:19

to be digitized, and this is one of

10:21

them. You think education would have gotten a lot

10:23

further. Um. I think for adults

10:25

it's a little better. Tons of people are taking webinars

10:27

and classes and learning to like, I

10:30

don't know, like cut hair, but not just

10:32

that, but like play the banjo and those those

10:34

work okay because adults can take it. But I think young

10:36

kids you really need to engage them on a one to one

10:39

level. And I don't know, it just it makes me

10:41

think that, like how good

10:43

are schools really? Right?

10:45

And but I think they have to be one on one

10:47

and have that social element. Are

10:49

you surprised, care though, that schools didn't

10:52

adapt more? You know, you have the con Academy.

10:55

You would think that they would be a little more

10:57

forward thinking about digital learning in

10:59

general and perhaps come up

11:01

with ways to make it more engaging

11:04

and more effective. I guess yeah, But think about

11:06

the equipment you need if you want to do VR. That would be the

11:08

solution. Right now. First of all, a lot of kids

11:10

are getting completely lost. Your talk about

11:12

digital divide. It's crazy. It's

11:14

crazy, like not having internet access, not

11:16

having a great device, not just they're just not going

11:19

to school. They're not which is even worse. You know, Commmit,

11:21

now, if you get into the VR area, the equipment,

11:24

you know, it's just not there. It's just not there. And

11:26

it's not it's pricey, it's it doesn't

11:28

work that well, that would be the I

11:30

suppose the thing. But what what does How do

11:33

you do an engaged curriculum on

11:35

a screen? You know, you can do it with entertainment,

11:38

you can do it with chat. But I don't think it translates

11:40

necessarily because they've been working on educational

11:42

stuff for a long time online and they thought it

11:44

was gonna take over everything, and I just I just don't

11:47

I don't know. Well, let's talk about

11:49

business. Um, obviously this has

11:51

upended everything, so we're going to break it

11:53

down. First. Big tech, your

11:55

confident places I read like

11:58

Apple, Facebook, and of course Amazon

12:00

are going to survive, and I guess,

12:02

in the case of Amazon, even thrive. They're

12:04

all I think you talked about how

12:07

they were larded. I like that word

12:09

used in your column, larded

12:11

with enough cash. So what

12:13

they're too big to fail? Uh, they're not

12:15

too They're not too big to all. They're too rich to fail. Why

12:18

should they fail? They have so much money, Like,

12:20

that's the the issue. They have all this money. Some

12:22

of them are doing rather well, like the Amazon's

12:24

stock is really is doing really

12:26

well because they're providing services right now

12:29

and everyone else can't keep up. That's the real

12:31

issue. Is that already, except

12:33

it's already accelerating trends that have started

12:35

to happen. Retails already been under

12:37

duress from companies like mostly Amazon

12:40

essentially, So now it's not they're

12:42

not under dress. They're under darressed and they've been closed

12:44

and they're financially at a disadvantage, and they're

12:46

not getting VC money. They're not getting like you

12:48

know, the Delhi or any

12:50

stores are not getting that. And so

12:52

so the big companies, not just Amazon, by the Walmart

12:55

is going to be doing really well because you can

12:57

go to Walmart's nown essential store, but they

12:59

also sell like as Stephanie Rule just point

13:01

out surfboards, like, so what happens to the surfboard

13:04

guy? Right? He can't? You know,

13:06

everybody gets used to and doing well in this time

13:08

here, and they don't have these cushions that these tech companies

13:10

have. They don't have this technology that the tech

13:13

companies have to really figure it out. And

13:15

so say your Google and Facebook

13:17

and advertising, they're only going to get

13:19

stronger. Well everybody else look at their layoffs

13:22

and all the media companies. Google has maybe

13:24

a little bit of a downturn in the advertising, but when

13:26

this is over, where people going to go? Google

13:28

and Facebook? Which is why I assume the government's

13:30

investigating. Well, also where's

13:32

the government going to go to get cash? If you also

13:35

write they're coming after those

13:37

big, big industries, those big companies

13:40

because they are so rich and they're going to be

13:42

paying for a lot of the stuff that we need, right

13:44

exactly, they're gonna be the company's making money. And

13:46

so the issue is there's no how can you

13:48

innovate and how can you keep small businesses

13:50

alive in this environment? I think the government

13:53

is doing a very good job of it. As you know, so many

13:55

stories I mean, the amount of stories of misuse

13:58

of funds there's going to be in newspaper for for

14:01

years to come. Um and

14:04

And I think the issue is that these companies they're

14:06

they're not just rich, they're rich. There

14:08

are they can put. Look at all the tech companies like

14:10

Twitter told his companies employees just to

14:12

stay home forever. You know, if you want

14:14

to Google, they can work from home. Facebook

14:17

they can work from home. It's not ideal, but they

14:19

certainly have environments where that doesn't

14:22

hinder their businesses. Big

14:24

tech had recently been so scrutinized

14:27

for monopolies, for

14:29

uh tech addiction, for

14:31

misinformation and all kinds

14:33

of things. Now they're bigger fish to

14:36

fry. So they are probably breathing a bit

14:38

of a sigh of relief on that front, too, aren't

14:40

they. Although you know, Bill Bill

14:42

bar just was talking about that. There's two stories

14:44

in the journal, and I think there are times about

14:47

the Google being the case against Google

14:49

moving forward, the investigation against Schoogle moving

14:51

forward, and so this is an advertising

14:53

and so I think it's that was a little bit of a shot across

14:55

the bowl, like we haven't forgotten. I think the

14:57

issue is there's less appetite in dis

15:00

lative areas to do like privacy

15:03

bill. You know, when they're doing these other things, they can't

15:05

agree on lunch there, they can't agree. They can't

15:07

agree on pandemic relief right, like think

15:09

about it, Like they're not going to agree on what privacy

15:11

is. Now that's said. Look, you have like Elizabeth

15:14

Warren and Congresswomen up

15:17

um AOC is working on

15:19

this anti merger build during the pandemic.

15:21

You've got Josh Holly over on the right working

15:24

with Elizabeth Warren on the bigness of

15:26

big text. So there are a lot of interesting

15:28

coalitions forming around that. And

15:31

they've used the pandemic to redeem themselves.

15:34

You know, we're not we were we we got

15:36

rid of those anti vaxers, we did this,

15:38

we stopped misinformation about that. It

15:40

only underscores that they can do it. And

15:43

so when it comes to political stuff they don't do

15:45

it. But here they've done it. So I think they're using it as a

15:47

bid for um

15:49

maybe we're not so bad. But even

15:51

if they do good, doesn't mean they're not too big.

15:54

And I think that that'll be their issue going

15:56

forward. I mean, you you have been

15:58

talking about some of these Darling's selfcon

16:00

Valley, but they're they're facing challenges

16:02

too. You know, we talked about Uber a little bit, um

16:05

Airbnb. There there's so many

16:07

who are facing challenges, and obviously,

16:09

as a marketer, i'd love to talk

16:12

about, you know, perception, brand perception.

16:14

What is happening in press that affects

16:17

those businesses. What are your thoughts? Well,

16:19

I think of the Uber ads, they're I'm

16:21

glad you're not driving. I'm glad you know, It's like it's

16:23

like sort of Wendy saying I'm glad you're not eating

16:25

and eating it's not such a hot thing. I was fascinating,

16:28

you know, there was that whole thing together of all the

16:30

words they use. Now you know, we're here to help family,

16:33

hope, stay home, stay safe,

16:35

We're here for you, We're here for you. Um.

16:38

I was really fascinated by the Uber ones

16:40

with the tinkling music. I'm

16:43

not sure if it worked that I liked them

16:45

any better. I don't know why they spent money on it telling

16:48

me not to get in a car. I don't

16:50

know what did you think? Well, it's

16:52

it's it's actually funny because there are so

16:54

many different ways to present

16:56

the same idea, right, right, And

16:59

and so what brands need to do is

17:01

figure out actually how to just take

17:03

that idea of comfort and make

17:05

it sound like it's coming from them, but

17:07

not also destroy your business, you know, on top

17:09

of it. But what's the use of a marketing ad

17:11

that says, please don't get in a car if you're

17:13

a car rental, you know, a car sharing company.

17:15

I just don't. I don't get it. I don't get I was

17:17

sort of sort almost wrote to her because you're hating, was

17:20

like, okay, alright, like

17:22

please please don't do what

17:24

we do. I also feel like there's so many

17:26

of those ads going on now, you guys, they

17:28

all kind of blur together. For

17:30

me. Of course, they all wore

17:32

my herd and I'm like, yeah, but I

17:35

can't remember who's doing what.

17:37

They all start to feel pretty duplicative to

17:39

me, and and then I start feeling

17:41

like you're just jumping on

17:44

this band and kind of get turned off.

17:46

Yeah, but that's the whole point, is that they

17:48

should be melding

17:51

and molding their conversation

17:53

in this way, but affecting

17:55

their own business, you know. So I would

17:57

love an add that this sucks. We had a late pop

18:00

all off and you're not getting in cars like,

18:02

hey, come back to us when things are better, we'll

18:04

give you. Everyone gets a mask or something that's

18:06

that's more helpful for me what I don't

18:08

know. I don't know. It's interesting that that

18:11

uber is advertising. I didn't see one from Airbnb,

18:13

which of course is really talk about a company

18:15

that's really terrific, has a great product,

18:18

and it's really strained at every aspect

18:20

of their business. Was has set to go public?

18:22

I mean, can you I'm interviewing Brian Chowsky later

18:24

this week about that. But it's just like that

18:27

one is really like what do you do? There's nothing

18:29

to be said except you're in the wrong business at

18:31

this moment in time. I

18:34

think their eventually people will be fine. They'll be

18:36

a vaccine. People will go back to it because it's a

18:38

good product, right like you have the differential between

18:40

the good products. It's just because of this particular

18:42

pandemic and the actual structural things

18:44

those there's not cyclical, they're sort of pandemical.

18:47

And then there's things like gyms

18:50

that you may not go back to. A movie theaters is a

18:52

really good thing. Movie theaters are already

18:54

on the down swing, right except for like an Alamo

18:56

drafthouse that had an experiential kind of

18:58

element to it, and so movie

19:01

theaters are already on the downtown. That's why you're seeing all

19:03

these stories whether Amazon's going to buy a MC

19:05

or Disney would buy one of them, because

19:07

they don't matter anymore, like they don't there.

19:09

It's it's an opportunity for those companies

19:11

and it's a business that people stopped doing,

19:15

and so that's the issue. Are you a structural problem.

19:17

You have a structural problem where people aren't doing the same thing

19:19

with with retail like there was just was

19:21

a specialties. Specialties was

19:23

a fifties store. Is not a huge

19:25

business, but they have a lot in San Francisco. It started

19:27

in San Francisco, great sandwich store. It was a great

19:30

chain. It was doing great. It's closing down.

19:32

It doesn't have the financial resources to stay

19:34

in business, and it doesn't know when people are going to be the

19:36

whole structural change of people being at the office.

19:39

It's not just for the pandemic. People are going to be

19:41

going to the office as much and therefore the businesses

19:43

all around it. Parking

19:45

garages, delis things like

19:47

that, they're all going to be impacted, and so I

19:50

think people don't think about that the community

19:53

around these companies and

19:55

how much they'll be hurting. But

19:58

let's just go through some other sectors. Kara,

20:00

what about the future of airlines and

20:03

travel and the whole leisure kind of

20:05

vacation industry. Well, I'm always fascinated

20:07

by There was a story that that cruises have open and there

20:09

have never been more full, Like right,

20:11

everyone's dying to it. So there is an element of people

20:14

who take cruises are going to take cruises, and they've

20:16

got to just put in practices into

20:18

place that are going to keep people

20:20

safer because you know, in this whole

20:22

thing, the whole the whole idea of

20:24

what's happened here is analog has struck back

20:26

pretty hard, and we realize how much analog

20:29

stuff we do. I don't think people are suddenly not going to

20:31

be on planes. There's just gonna be different practices

20:33

going on planes are gonna be much more aware of things.

20:36

And the person who was on your plane that was always marrying a

20:38

mask isn't weird anymore, right, And maybe

20:40

they'll hand them out and they'll have Jet Blue on the front

20:42

or whatever the heck they'll have. But I

20:44

think it's like if if you were I

20:46

don't know if you're old in the buzz, but I know Katie and I are.

20:48

When we used to go. When I was a kid, we used to go through

20:51

airports right to the gate if there was

20:53

no security. Like I was telling

20:55

my kid that, I was trying to make them feel better. Of course, it

20:57

didn't about not being in school. I was like, oh,

20:59

what we used to go. Things change

21:01

and they don't go back, and so we had security.

21:04

Used to walk through the gates. Then we had a level

21:06

of security. Now we have enormous security. Over

21:08

time, it's the same thing with it. It's going to be a different

21:10

experience and everyone will adjust to it.

21:13

You'll get on later, you'll get on.

21:15

It'll be slower, you'll have masks,

21:17

there might be you know, all kinds

21:19

of things. Now. Interestingly, airlines, they flow the

21:21

air pretty quickly in those things, so I think people

21:23

will feel better.

21:26

We'll go back to that much quicker than you think.

21:29

Can I just mention one thing you guys on

21:31

airlines while we're on this topic, I've

21:34

heard about these flights where they're packed in like

21:36

sardines, And I'm like,

21:38

what what is going on here? Why

21:40

aren't they taking this more seriously?

21:43

And yes, I've heard about the air recirculating

21:45

too, but it seems to me

21:47

that they're not taking proper precautions.

21:50

What is that all about? If they want to get people

21:52

back? Right? So they so that because these loads,

21:54

when they load these airlines, they should have these middle

21:56

seats empty. Even then though you know what I mean, Like

21:59

you can do all you want, there's people in an enclosed

22:01

space and this is like, hello, hello

22:04

virus, that kind of thing, even when there's just a regular

22:06

virus or a cold, everybody get Yet You've been on lots

22:08

of planes, you know that. And so I think

22:10

it'll be really interesting to see how they're going to play

22:13

it. I think probably people will go back

22:15

to it's just at a different level and they can find different

22:17

reasons not to fly. And again, digital

22:20

means have made it so you don't have to. Like

22:22

I was talking to a big broadcast network.

22:25

You've worked for all of them? Is that correct?

22:26

I? Okay,

22:28

thank goodness, Okay, that wasn't that one, but

22:31

it was one of the ones you work for, Katie, And they were

22:33

talking about those those those upfronts that

22:35

they would go to and stuff. And this guy was

22:37

like, Oh, we'd pay a lot of money. We fly first class,

22:39

we get in the town cars, we go to the hotels,

22:41

we've had the dinners. You've been to a million of those. And

22:44

he's like, we did it all in two hours on the phone,

22:46

like the decisions it needed to be made,

22:48

and so why would we do it that

22:50

way again? Why would we spend all that money

22:52

again? It's like the three martini lunch.

22:55

Yeah, right, and they that stopped and it was

22:57

replaced by something else, And so I think that but

23:00

will begin to reconsider. If you're

23:02

not a business person, you're not reconsidering all

23:04

costs and thinking about what you can digitize,

23:06

you're not really good business person. Yeah

23:09

yeah, I mean, but speaking of the three martini

23:11

lunch, what happens to restaurants? You know,

23:13

what happens to that decimated dining

23:15

experience? Even after you think

23:18

yeah, because I think speaking of Uber, one of the

23:20

bright spots has been Uber eats, right, and so

23:22

what and they're talking there was rumors of them being

23:24

buying Grubhub. Well, they would

23:26

have of the delivery market in the United

23:28

States, I'm not counting New York because there's so much delivery

23:31

in New York and that's sort of a it's already

23:33

a system in place most restaurants,

23:36

but you know, they'd have their I think George

23:38

ash would have, Uber would

23:40

have that's a crazy amount of

23:42

control over the market, right, And

23:45

so people like that, like the delivery

23:47

experience. If they that, they get around and

23:49

get used to it, and so even if a small portion

23:52

of it moves from going to a restaurant to using

23:54

these availing themselves, that really can hit these restaurants

23:57

hard. Um. And and you know

23:59

you talked to a restaurant person, this was already

24:01

a problem. These delivery fees that these

24:04

companies take off the top,

24:06

this is gonna kill them. Same thing with grocery

24:08

stores. And after Amazon can deliver, if only a

24:10

small amount of people now like

24:13

delivery by by Amazon, they're

24:16

gonna use it. People people start to get

24:18

used to things, and so once it's it's I

24:20

hate to say it, but it's been a real marketing event for

24:22

things like streaming, like Disney streaming

24:25

or um or anything.

24:27

It's been a marketing event for for

24:29

for a lot of these people because people get introduced to

24:31

the product. I think. I think

24:33

the restaurant business, though, care has got to come

24:35

back. People, I mean, their social

24:37

lives revolve around meeting

24:39

friends at restaurants. Maybe not right away,

24:42

but don't you think they didn't come back.

24:44

I don't. I think it's gonna be. It's it's already been

24:46

a tray. Same thing with retail. I mean certain

24:48

retails certainly, but in general that

24:51

any trends that were present

24:53

are accelerated. And that's what you have to think about

24:55

it. If it's accelerated, it's

24:58

it's act. And then how by

25:00

tech you're really you're really You could

25:02

go around from industry to industry and look at this

25:04

streaming entertainment like people have been

25:07

using these look at Netflix never been more

25:09

useful and people never been bigger usage.

25:11

Now I think people are going to stay in those zones.

25:13

And they were already doing home theaters, they

25:15

were already the technology availed itself

25:18

getting these screens and the ease of use and stuff

25:20

like that. And so I do like Disney launching

25:23

the streaming platform and speaking which

25:25

Kevin Marriage is left to go to TikTok to

25:27

b ceo, TikTok, those kind of things

25:29

are going to do really well because this

25:32

this stuff has people have gotten used to

25:34

and are trying now. Not everything's gonna work. You saw

25:36

Quimby. I was going to say, what happened to

25:38

Quimby? But

25:41

we'll see, We'll see. It's a lot of money spent. It's

25:43

certainly they collect I think a hundred and thirty billion

25:45

dollars. Uh, it's a lot of money.

25:48

And it's a question they were hoping for commuters

25:50

right that people were on. So that's the issue

25:52

is that I don't think some of the product isn't

25:55

good, and I think some of the product is quite

25:57

good. And it's an interesting idea. It's just there's a lot of

25:59

options out there. Well, let's talk about

26:01

TikTok. Yeah. Yeah, because my daughter,

26:03

I mean almost eleven year old, she

26:06

has an account. She posts

26:08

a video. Hell, I don't know, a hundred

26:10

times a day she's begging me to join. I've

26:13

seen so many of those videos, you

26:15

know, these is TikTok.

26:18

This is a TikTok. This is TikTok, and

26:20

she loves it, you know. But also, I mean

26:22

we've seen other platforms that are doing so

26:24

well, like Zoom, you know, we've been thinking about

26:27

that and how much that's increase in use.

26:29

So what about those platforms is as

26:31

ways to recover maybe some of the

26:34

central company, And I think it's going to fall off once

26:36

this is over. I don't think Zoom is good, and Zoom was

26:38

under stress because of the privacy and security. I don't

26:40

know if you've gotten zoom bomb, but I certainly did. I

26:42

wanted to be Zoom. Let

26:46

me just tell you. You do not want to be Zoom.

26:49

Trust me. It was what detends what they're bombing

26:51

me. They're never bombing it was good

26:53

good porns. It's always real dirty

26:56

gross porn. Okay,

26:58

right, not cood

27:00

point. We don't want that. We don't want. You know, you have to

27:02

select your porn, Katie, as you know,

27:04

as if I have a user of porn. I mean you

27:07

have to choose it and to promise.

27:09

Okay, anyway, let's are

27:12

we too old to get on TikTok? No?

27:14

No, you're wrong? Yes, Okay,

27:16

you get the yes because it's not you're wrong. You're completely

27:19

wrong. Tell me why.

27:22

Oh my god, it's it's like when

27:24

it's like when all the adults

27:26

got on Facebook and ruined it. Now

27:29

because it's so the algorithms are so

27:31

good, you get the things you want to get, and

27:34

so I don't think it's quite like that. I don't

27:36

think it's so apparent they use algorithmic

27:38

selection so well compared to everybody

27:41

else, knowing what you want and feeding you what

27:43

you want and so you can stay in your little zones. What

27:45

I think is interesting. I've interviewed a lot of people and I think

27:47

they did one podcast with Gary Vaynerchick

27:49

and a lot of business people are trying out

27:52

TikTok and so is There was a great

27:54

story in the time to say about a vegan

27:57

chef who was an actress who was sort of a didn't

27:59

do very well and actress and now has been doing these

28:01

lovely videos on TikTok and now

28:03

she's a big hit shaded like

28:05

so like there you see

28:07

how it looks really thin. Now you've

28:10

got a few strips, But you know what you want

28:12

more than this? Do there because there should be business. You're

28:14

gonna use some liquid smokes, you know. And look

28:16

at Sarah Cooper, who's amazing. She's

28:18

a she's a comic. She left Google. I had done a

28:21

cod passed with her when she left Google to be a comic

28:23

a long time ago, and now she does

28:25

the Trump She does the Trump voice

28:27

with her acting it out. It's wonderful

28:30

and she's become like a real sensation.

28:32

I think she's going to parlay that into something there because

28:34

she's so talented. Not only that, but Gara

28:36

there was also a Washington Post reporter who's

28:39

doing critical reporting. He's

28:41

kind of young, and he's getting younger

28:43

people. He's for educating them, making

28:45

them more knowledgeable, and really engaging

28:47

them. Hello, old have you recently downloaded

28:50

the op TikTok but you're not quite sure what it's for.

28:52

Well, I'm here with a self proclaimed expert on

28:54

TikTok, David Jorgenson. Dave, tell us

28:56

what TikTok is. It's like a viral video

28:58

app. And what is the or you page. It's

29:01

kind of like your news feed. You're probably on it right now. And

29:03

tell me why is the Washington Post on

29:06

TikTok? Uh? So,

29:09

I'm gonna go with kar on this. Bows I

29:12

think that business ignore TikTok

29:14

at their own peril, and I think

29:16

it's you know, I'm a big believer

29:19

in you just have to be on as many

29:21

platforms as you can. Mass media is

29:23

now an oxymoron and you just

29:25

have to consider aggregate viewers,

29:28

aggregate listeners, you know, And

29:30

I think Karra has done an incredible job

29:32

at that. Yeah, I don't thinking of TikTok all the time

29:34

now after I did this interview with Karri v Intertrik, because

29:36

he's doing advice, Like if you you could like there's

29:39

no real there's there should be a really important

29:41

business element giving business advice on

29:43

TikTok. It's a much more flexible

29:45

platform than in Instagram, which is sort of seen

29:47

as entertainment right. TikTok is

29:49

not yet formed, and so it can do a lot of

29:51

things. You're listening to

29:54

the debut episode of Back to Biz

29:56

with Katie and Bows. When we return,

29:59

Kara talks about how we all have

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You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie

31:50

and Bows. Let's get back to it. Let's

31:52

return to our conversation. With Kara Switcher.

31:56

Of all things that this has shown is how

31:59

many people are exposed, especially because

32:02

of the gig economy, which was fueled by

32:04

tech companies like Uber. Everybody,

32:06

all of them use use contractors. And I

32:08

think I had a really good podcast with Nicole

32:10

Hannah Jones, who is who who did the sixteen

32:12

nineteen projects. She writes about inequality for The New York

32:14

Times, which was all about this idea

32:17

of we call them essential workers now when

32:19

in fact, before this we treated them

32:21

as if they were not essential, not in essential

32:24

in terms of how we paid them, or kind of healthcare

32:26

or any kind of benefits. They're sacrificial

32:29

workers then. And it creates

32:31

this sort of with New York magazine called Rich

32:33

Corona, Poor Corona. Right, there's

32:35

these lords and the serfs, and we're

32:37

seeing that. We're seeing that in real time with

32:39

people who are not protected, and we've got to really start

32:41

to think hard about focus

32:44

on people, not corporations. And well,

32:46

I guess the question is you talked all these big

32:48

mockers. I mean, do you think they have the

32:50

stomach and the will to say we're

32:52

gonna start treating these essential workers

32:54

better. You have had that nightmare

32:56

story for Amazon. You know, Walmart

32:59

workers didn't get mass for the

33:01

longest time. I mean, do you think there's

33:03

going to be a real shift in attitude? Well,

33:06

look at that Amazon story was interesting because

33:08

one of the stories I read was like they happened

33:10

after Jess Bezos saw it and visited a warehouse,

33:12

not until then. So I don't think they're in

33:15

the presence of mind to think of these workers as

33:17

anything but sacrificial. They're not. They haven't

33:19

they do. The idea of what an employee is

33:21

has to change right very drastically

33:24

because in this economy a lot of people are contractors,

33:26

and so what is an employee? Do they how

33:28

do they get benefits? How do they get child childcare?

33:31

Look at look at the issues around childcare right now. Anyone

33:33

who has a young kids, no

33:36

matter what they're they're monetary

33:38

wealth right now unless you can force

33:41

someone to work for you and fly them to I

33:43

don't know, kirk Turks and cages wherever you live.

33:46

Everyone is now understands the childcare

33:48

crisis in this country because they don't have childcare

33:51

all of a sudden, And I think that's the

33:53

kind of thing we have to think about these workers is that they're

33:55

not paid enough. They don't they aren't able to

33:57

make a living wage, and we're taking we're

33:59

feeling it is a tiny bit in

34:01

in inconvenient ways. Yeah,

34:03

but speaking of the employees, you know, this is

34:06

such an interesting topic around

34:08

you know, sacrificial workers. By the way, that

34:10

just blew my mind with amazing

34:14

I love it. A sacrificial workers. I'm

34:16

going to use that from now on because that is absolutely

34:19

the truth. Thing gets the center of it. Um,

34:21

but you've talked about you know, w f

34:24

H working from home right, and

34:26

um, what that's going to be like? So

34:28

what do you think of that? I mean, what what happens?

34:30

Because Twitter right just announced that couple

34:33

from home like indefinitely, what

34:36

happens? How does that affect a lot

34:38

of people can't work from home? They can't

34:40

they have analog jobs, people who work for

34:42

the m T A say, or people who you

34:44

know, public transit, anyone who works delivery.

34:48

Lots of people can't work from home. And so what are

34:50

we gonna do for those people? You

34:52

know, it's very it's easy for people knowledge

34:55

workers to do this, you know, so Twitter like

34:57

doesn't matter where they are doing their coding it doesn't

34:59

that they have a they're not connection in their computer. They're

35:02

just fine like that kind of thing. And so what we've got

35:04

to think about that this country is is

35:06

more than just knowledge or else we make everyone

35:08

a knowledge worker, which isn't going to have right, you know.

35:10

I mean it's a really interesting questions.

35:13

How do we how do you work from

35:15

home? And we do it in such a way that people

35:17

can have good childcare, good health

35:19

care um and

35:21

and a good working wage. I mean,

35:23

when they say they're going to give two more dollars to people

35:25

for you know, combat pay, essentially, it's sort

35:28

of that it's so insulting to me, you

35:30

know what I mean. Like or teachers,

35:32

how are they going to deal with not having

35:34

been trained in technology and now having to teach

35:36

courses and make them interesting. They're

35:39

just sort of here's a zoom, like good luck, Like

35:41

what like, excuse me? This is how we're

35:43

educating our kids. And so I think I

35:45

think we have to have a real public private

35:48

partnership on this stuff, because look, this administration

35:50

has been incompetent on every aspect. You can't

35:52

I can't imagine they're thinking for the future of

35:54

like what do we do next, you know, or how do

35:57

we return? Who are you impressed

35:59

by? I mean, if we ever needed some leader

36:01

great leaders and and thoughtful

36:04

leaders and thought leaders and

36:06

all of the above, it's now. So who

36:09

do you think is providing that kind of leadership,

36:11

whether it's in the in the world of tech

36:13

or outside of tech cacra. Well, you

36:15

know, there's different people that have different voices. You

36:18

know, Look, you can't help. But someone who

36:20

was who I've been very tough on over the many years,

36:22

Bill Gates, But I think they've been He's been really

36:24

prescient about this thing and what are we gonna do next

36:27

around healthcare? And his wife Melinda Gates

36:29

is really interesting. I think I'm

36:31

just thinking tech leaders. I think Mark bennie Off has

36:33

been one of the most outspoken about the idea of compassionate

36:36

capitalism and how to get there and

36:38

how you have to you have to figure out a new

36:40

ways of treating workers, um

36:43

and creatively educating them and creatively

36:45

caring for them. I think that he's talked

36:47

about a lot of stuff. Um. You

36:50

know, there's some politicians you can't help but admire. Elizabeth

36:52

Warren. In terms of some of them, I think she's

36:54

the only politician I'll tell you a big tech is nervous

36:56

about the idea of Vice President Elizabeth

36:59

Warren has got them wedding because

37:01

you know, she's she's super thoughtful about

37:04

what we need to do, and she's been talking about this issue

37:06

for the plight of workers and

37:08

the average person for a long time.

37:11

Um. And even even the Medicare for All debate,

37:13

like that may not be like all of a sudden

37:15

like oh yeah, maybe so um

37:18

And you know not everyone's going to get this not you

37:20

know that. I do see the push pull of people wanting

37:23

to get back to work. Of course they think I like not

37:25

having stores closed, the people

37:28

like not working. I just think it's this push

37:30

pull of what average citizens

37:32

have to realize they have to sacrifice, and it's something

37:34

Americans, the twitchy American electric

37:37

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37:39

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37:41

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40:23

You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie

40:26

and Boats. And before we finished

40:28

our conversation with Kara, we asked her for the

40:30

inside scoop on what tech

40:32

innovations were really impressing

40:34

her right now. Well, I think two areas

40:36

are really big and I've written about them. One is climate

40:38

change tech. I think there's some This is an area

40:41

we're going to have talk about the next crisis we're gonna face.

40:43

Climate change is an ongoing crisis that we have

40:45

to figure out, and technology has to play a big

40:47

part in it. Not just getting rid of the carbon

40:49

in the atmosphere, because that's just cleaning trash,

40:51

right, that's just so what how can

40:53

we make food? Like some of the food tech stuff

40:55

is really interesting, you know, how we

40:58

make food available, healthy food with

41:00

less a tax on the planet. Some of the

41:02

autonomous car stuff is really great.

41:04

I visited a couple of companies right before this actually

41:07

that I was really heartened by, like some of the stuff

41:09

that's happening there and the idea of

41:12

of saving energy in that way. Um,

41:14

some of the stuff around energy is cool. Like

41:16

how we can build homes, Like the way we build

41:18

homes right now is artisanal. It's ridiculous

41:21

waste of of of all kinds of them that

41:23

it contributes enormous amounts to greenhouse

41:25

gases construction does so,

41:28

Or what are we gonna do with if we're not going to have

41:30

cars like I talked about not cars, or

41:32

if we're not going to have so many commercial office

41:34

businesses, maybe we could turn them into homes so people

41:37

could live more affordably. Like there's

41:39

all kinds of like Like there's a great

41:41

book by Brad Smith, he's the president of Microsoft,

41:43

of all people Microsoft used to which used to be

41:45

sort of the evil Empire. He's written amazing book

41:47

called Tools and Weapons and the same

41:49

thing. It's about tech. But it can neither

41:52

be a it's like a knife. It can be a tool or

41:54

a weapon. Which one do we want to use it for? And

41:56

I think that's like there's all these kind of

41:58

stuff that we can take and start

42:00

to think about and what's a better way of doing it?

42:02

And I have to say all and if you want out a positive

42:04

I think young people really do get this. What

42:06

younger people do. My son is my

42:09

son like he calms me

42:11

down so much. He gets it, he understands

42:13

it. I don't think he's particularly one

42:16

way. He's just like, just take

42:18

a second, like we can figure this out. Like

42:20

they're much more. They don't. They're not cynical,

42:22

and yet they they do. I think

42:24

I think they're frustrated with all them We've given

42:27

them a terrible future with all this debt

42:29

we've just piled on right now. Um,

42:31

there's no choice here, unfortunately. But

42:34

but I think and there's who can say viruses

42:36

a virus, like there's nothing to be done about something like

42:39

this. Um. But I think they feels

42:41

that they're much more I don't want to say

42:43

hopeful, but they're more pragmatic about things.

42:45

And I feel like, whenever I talk to young people,

42:48

I feel much better about the world

42:50

because I think they've grown up in this tech environment.

42:53

They see it for what it is, and they're

42:55

not fool the way we are. And

42:58

and that doesn't panick them. It isn't you

43:00

know, it doesn't upset them quite as much. And

43:03

they're not afraid, I think to give

43:05

their opinions sometimes I have to say

43:07

without portfolio. But I think they they

43:09

feel very liberated to

43:12

to say what's wrong too. Sometimes

43:14

our embarrassment because I feel like

43:17

we have done a really shitty

43:19

job and a lot of departments. But I

43:21

love the fact that they they

43:23

care so much and they let you know they

43:26

care and what they're going to do about it.

43:28

And I think it's really refreshing to do. You

43:30

find that bows as well? Yeah,

43:32

I mean I think that there's so much to be said

43:34

for this coming sort of generation

43:37

right there, innovating in a way that we

43:39

never had to or generations before

43:41

them really haven't had to innovate in this way.

43:43

Certainly there have been, you know, terrible

43:46

moments in history where generations

43:48

have had to overcome what their parents did. But

43:50

you know, even talking about Karay, your son, you

43:53

know, going off to college and then

43:55

coming out of it, you know, what work is he going

43:57

to do? How is he going to do it? If he's not stressed

44:00

that about it, he's feeling hopeful about

44:02

what will become. I just think it's

44:04

a very positive way to look

44:06

at the future because although we've saddled them

44:08

with perhaps what is a really

44:11

detrimental, horrible burden.

44:14

Uh, if he's hopeful, that makes me hopeful.

44:16

Well, also, you have to have a historical perspective.

44:18

And I think I just did a great podcast John met Jim,

44:20

who has written lots of loves of people. He's amazing

44:23

and one of the things that I think we have lost

44:25

historical sense in the way our

44:27

society is built so so tech forward

44:30

and so digital forward, and that like

44:32

someone the other day was, you know, this is just

44:34

terrible. I'm like, well, slavery was terrible, the

44:36

Civil War was terrible, the Whiskey Rebellion

44:39

was terrible, McCarthyism was terrible, Salem

44:41

which trouser. Like, we have an ability

44:43

to overcome things. It's just my

44:46

only worry is that because we're so

44:48

jacked into the tech system that it's

44:50

taken over our brains in that addictive way.

44:52

And it's really the communications

44:54

platforms are so invasive

44:57

and toxic that it may be the things

44:59

that's pushed us over the edge. But

45:01

we've overcome so much horrible

45:04

history and for for lots of people and

45:06

reached for some really big goals

45:09

like them. I was watching for some reason, I was watching

45:11

the speech that Kennedy gave about the

45:13

moon landing, and I was like, oh,

45:15

remember that was great, Like there

45:17

we can the minute we have a leader that's like that, I

45:19

think it appeals to our best nature and

45:22

it pulls us away from from

45:24

all of this. Well, maybe we just need to get out

45:26

of the way, Yeah, or just

45:30

just let people. I'll end on. I'll end you a happy

45:32

note. I live in this neighborhood in DC

45:34

right now with my kids in Shaw. And

45:37

one thing that's great. If you walk around a city at

45:39

least I don't know what it's like in the suburbs. Everyone's

45:41

on their porches talking to each

45:43

other. It's really people are sick of the screens,

45:46

like they've gotten outside. They and

45:48

and this. You just go by and meet. I've

45:50

met. I know all my neighbors now, which is incredible,

45:52

which I which I've moved into a new house, but I did,

45:54

I would have taken me forever, would have been closed inside.

45:56

And there was this family across

45:59

right on the owner for me, and they were all outside

46:01

doing the electric slide of all things. And

46:05

I was like the electric slide that these

46:08

kids were loving it. There's little

46:10

kids in name of course, Like I was like, this is an

46:12

awful dance, but it's not. It's not. It's a great

46:14

dance. And you know, and they

46:16

moved to the macarena and it was like it

46:18

was just a lovely night and I was like, oh,

46:21

okay, you can be like this, you know what I mean? There

46:24

was a there was a real sense of community

46:26

that was had been lost and I'd forgotten

46:28

about. And I thought that was I hope you. I hope you have

46:30

video of yourself doing the macarina. I

46:32

did not. I was socially distanced and I am I

46:35

could not do the electric slide to this day,

46:37

I tried. I can't,

46:39

No, I can't

46:41

talk. I think I want some try

46:43

to teach you to do the body

46:46

roll. So we made

46:48

I was, well,

46:50

we're going to be successful in electric slide. No, that's

46:53

not happening. I can I will do it so badly.

46:55

You'll be like I cannot believe someone dances quite

46:58

so bad. It's really depressed. And

47:00

I have to learn to dance because I'm getting married

47:02

again. I think about hope over experience,

47:05

um and uh, and it's

47:07

a triumph of hope over. And my

47:10

my girlfriend is an amazing UM. She

47:12

does tango and she's like, if you know, dance

47:14

on our freaking wedding. I'm going to divorce you right afterwards,

47:17

and I was like, how, I've got to learn to dance. So

47:19

I'm going to get onto YouTube and learn how to

47:21

dance. It's all right, but we can. We can

47:23

do a zoom and bow and I teach you

47:25

because I'm a pret I've

47:28

seen you. You get down, Katie Couric, you

47:30

pat down, blow like I saw one picture

47:32

of you. I was like, girl, what's happened

47:34

there? Jesus stripes? I drop

47:37

like it's hot,

47:40

drop it like it's what? Oh

47:43

it is hot, Katie? What can you say?

47:47

It was hot to start with, it remains hot.

47:49

It will always be with Katie Kirk.

47:52

Kara, thank you for doing that. Yeah,

47:56

who's who's next? Who are you having up?

47:58

What is what is this? What do you try to do? Find hope?

48:00

Right? We're just we're

48:03

just talking too smart forward looking

48:05

people who were you know, thoughtful

48:08

and interesting and fun to talk to you? But

48:10

I would tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

48:12

Carol. Well, good, that's a good discussion

48:14

to have because we can we can change things

48:17

for the better and get rid of the shooty things for sure.

48:21

Like that. Thanks Kara, thank you, thank well.

48:25

That was it the very first episode

48:28

Back to Biz with Me, Katie

48:30

and Me so Bose,

48:33

what did you think? Oh my goodness, I'm about

48:35

to pop the champagne. That was fun and

48:37

we're gonna do ten. So there's a lot more

48:39

to come. We'll be talking to CEOs, entrepreneurs,

48:42

political leaders, cultural trailblazers,

48:44

gosh and so many more. So

48:47

stay tuned, everybody. The next one will

48:49

be coming the first week of June, and new

48:51

episodes land every Thursday after

48:53

that. You can find Back to Biz

48:55

episodes in the next Question

48:58

feed or by searching Apple Podcast,

49:00

the I Heart Radio app, or wherever

49:02

you listen to your favorite shows. And

49:05

if you like what you've heard, spread the word.

49:08

Let us know. Come find us on social media.

49:10

We're on Instagram and Twitter and

49:13

TikTok. What do you think bows,

49:15

are you going to do it? Oh? Hell no, I'm

49:17

not getting on TikTok. They can find you on TikTok.

49:20

I might do TikTok. I'm an early

49:22

adapter woman, so you might

49:24

find me doing a few very

49:26

strange dances. So tell Layel your

49:28

daughter, she's got to join me and

49:30

follow me at least on TikTok. So

49:33

I have somebody following me this all right,

49:35

Well, the next show will be Katie and Lael.

49:38

Okay. Meanwhile, I'm Katie

49:40

Kuric and I'm Boa St John And

49:43

this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Thanks

49:45

for listening, everybody, Okay bye.

49:57

Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production

49:59

of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media.

50:02

The executive producers are Katie Currk, bozmas

50:05

St John, and Courtney Litz. The

50:07

supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The

50:09

associate producers are Derek Clements,

50:11

Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto.

50:14

Editing by Derek Clements and Lauren Hansen,

50:17

Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special

50:19

thanks to Adriana Fasio. For

50:22

more information about today's episode, go to Katie

50:24

Kirk dot com. You can also follow

50:26

Katie Kurrik and bozmas St John on

50:28

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50:30

more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit

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