0:00

Hi

0:03

everyone. I'm Katie Kuric, and this is

0:05

next question. You know, I've

0:08

known and admire Dr Sanjay

0:10

Gupta for years. He's such

0:12

a great guy. He's also a neuroscientist

0:15

and the chief medical correspondent for

0:17

CNN, which, as you can imagine,

0:19

when COVID hit put him at

0:21

the center of the pandemic storm.

0:24

This may be a new pathogen that circulates around

0:26

the world. You're running into a situation where you just

0:28

don't have beds. If those numbers don't

0:30

budge, it's gonna be very hard to get to hurt immunity.

0:33

I think this has added a lot more urgency to

0:35

an already very urgent situation.

0:38

There has been so much to cover. In fact,

0:41

Sanjay also launched a daily

0:43

podcast on the subject. I'm Dr

0:45

Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical

0:47

correspondent, and this is coronavirus

0:50

fact versus fiction. Throughout

0:53

this very long year, Sanja

0:56

has really acted as our guide, helping

0:58

us understand the thorny virus

1:01

and what it means for our health, our communities,

1:04

and our country. And he admits

1:06

it's been as all consuming as you

1:08

might think. All I think about,

1:11

Katie has been COVID. You know, I

1:13

viral transmission, how

1:15

people evaluate risk social

1:18

behavior. But there is some

1:20

joy in getting so head down in something.

1:22

I feel like we live such distracted lives.

1:25

You get a little bit about a lot of things,

1:28

like I really know so much about this virus.

1:33

I also wanted to talk to Sanjay because

1:35

he's got a new book out. Yeah, believe

1:38

it or not, he found time to write

1:40

a book during this crazy year. It's

1:42

called Keep Sharp, Building

1:45

a Better Brain at any Age, and

1:47

it's fascinating. It's also a

1:49

practical guide for better

1:51

brain health, something I'm extremely

1:53

interested in. And don't worry, we do

1:56

get into that, but since I have the COVID

1:58

expert of experts, I couldn't

2:00

help but start our conversation there. You

2:04

must feel like you you have a PhD

2:06

in virology at this point, right, Yeah,

2:09

I mean totally and and and the the irony

2:11

is, Katie, is that this is a novel

2:14

virus, right, So I

2:16

mean novel actually means something,

2:18

which which that didn't really strike me until

2:21

a few months into this either, Like I think because

2:24

you said the PhD in virology. The the irony

2:26

is that that I think people

2:28

who had a lot of knowledge about this. In some

2:30

ways it got

2:32

in their way because it's very hard to

2:34

think about something as novel. You immediately

2:37

want to put it into a box. It's the box

2:39

of stars, it's the box

2:41

of H one, N one, whatever you

2:43

come up with. But this was novel,

2:46

which means that if you try to put it in a box,

2:49

you probably got it wrong. So they

2:51

had to cast aside their preconceived notions

2:54

completely, and that's

2:56

hard to do, right for a scientist,

2:58

it's really hard to do, and and it

3:00

goes against sort of how you think about things. Let's

3:02

get the best experts. And by the way,

3:04

I think there's really really

3:07

value, great value and expertise. Don't

3:09

get me wrong, But what you would

3:11

do is grab the coronavirus

3:13

experts, grabbed the pandemic experts, and that

3:16

was all important. But this virus

3:18

was just behaving in a totally novel

3:20

way. I mean. One of the best examples, as

3:22

you well know, was everybody

3:25

believed that respiratory virus is

3:27

really only spread when you were sick. When

3:30

you were when you had symptoms, that's when you spread.

3:32

And you know, the guidance was, will screen people

3:34

at airports, will tell people to stay home if they're

3:36

sick, which people should do anyway, regardless

3:39

of whether in a pandemic, and

3:41

we should be able to quell this thing. No

3:44

one really believed initially that

3:46

this thing would spread most efficiently

3:49

when people didn't have symptoms. That

3:51

that was that's never really happened

3:53

before, is it. As Dr Fauci has said, never in the

3:55

history of respiratory viruses has

3:57

that happened before. That's novel. I

4:00

mean, you know, remember the story of typhoid Mary.

4:03

She was a silent carrier of typhoid.

4:06

It was so dramatic because she infected

4:08

all these people in this single residents

4:11

in this community and all that, and people

4:13

couldn't figure it out. This is

4:15

like millions of typhoid Mary's in a way

4:17

of a of a brand new disease,

4:19

COVID, So it is it was quite extraordinary

4:22

to sort of see that, uh, see see how

4:24

that all played out. Well, before

4:26

we talk about your your new book,

4:28

keep sharp, because I'm really interested,

4:31

as someone who's sixty four, in

4:33

maintaining my mental acuity

4:37

as i age. I just want

4:39

to ask you one last question about COVID, and

4:41

that is, are we seeing

4:44

the light at the end of the tunnel. Every time

4:46

I feel optimistic, sang, I

4:48

then read something about variance or

4:50

increased cases, and it's

4:53

quite nerve racking, I think for

4:55

the average person who doesn't have

4:58

a medical degree or hasn't been deeply,

5:00

deeply entrenched in the science of this, I

5:03

mean, are we screwed? Are we at

5:05

the tail end of this pandemic? I

5:08

do feel the light on my face, in

5:11

your face. I mean, I do think that the

5:13

the tunnel is is the end

5:15

of the tunnels in sight? I mean, the

5:17

then can I just

5:19

can I just remind people, and I think

5:21

this is such an important reminder that they were having rave

5:23

parties in Wuhan at the end of

5:26

last summer. And I bring

5:28

that up only to say that we talked about the vaccines.

5:30

We talked about the fact that science is now rescuing

5:33

us, which is great, fantastic,

5:36

but so much of this didn't need to happen.

5:38

And I and I and I know that's not your question, Katie,

5:40

but I just feel like I can never answer a question about

5:43

um, about the sort of future

5:46

or being optimistic about this pandemic because I'm

5:49

so it's just so, it's

5:51

so, I'm so angry in so

5:53

many ways. I mean, you know, six people

5:56

died and some of them are my friends. And I've

5:58

seen families, I talk to families still,

6:01

I just it just this may not have even

6:03

been the Black Swan event, right, we think

6:05

of this black Swan event, this really contagious

6:07

virus, which this was, but something that

6:10

has a two to three percent mortality that would

6:12

be awful, that would be the Black Swan event.

6:14

This wasn't even that. There were countries around the world

6:16

that immediately quelled this and measure

6:18

their debts in the hundreds instead of the hundreds of thousands.

6:21

Having said that, we are a society.

6:24

Because we are we

6:26

focus on touchdowns and home runs and knockouts.

6:29

We don't care much for singles and doubles.

6:31

Because we're that society. We waited for science

6:33

to rescue us. And and the vaccines

6:35

will. I think they're really extraordinary

6:38

and really effective. They seem to be pretty

6:40

effective against the variant B

6:42

one one seven, the UK variant,

6:45

because there's a lot of concern about that variant. But if

6:47

you have been vaccinated, or

6:49

if you had the infection in the past, the

6:52

other you know, the the circulating coronavirus

6:54

that should also protect you. So it's really

6:56

I think it's really good. And I think with the warmer, warmer

6:58

weather in the summer, viral transmission

7:01

rates will go down. That would be great.

7:03

I do think, you know, um, we'll

7:05

probably get to hurt immunity over the summer,

7:08

but but it's worth reminding that her immunity

7:10

isn't a sort of destination. Necessarily.

7:13

You can pop in and out of her immunity.

7:15

So if not enough people get vaccinated over

7:18

you know, the next few months, then

7:20

going into the colder weather again in the fall,

7:23

we could see resurgences. It's

7:25

quite disturbing when you hear about the

7:27

people who are refusing to

7:29

get vaccinated. Many of

7:31

them are white men, Uh,

7:33

in this country. I think you see

7:35

the impact of politics on

7:38

that number, not only in terms

7:40

of the response to the pandemic,

7:42

but now to the response to the

7:44

vaccines. Uh. That

7:46

must be quite disturbing

7:49

for you too, it is for me. Yeah.

7:52

I mean there's been no not

7:54

a single part of this entire pandemic

7:57

that hasn't been politicized in some way.

7:59

I mean that I guess now you say that's in

8:02

in April of two one, and it's

8:04

obvious, right, everyone knows that, but started

8:07

starting off covering the story,

8:09

um and now all the way now to the

8:11

vaccines, even every single component

8:14

has been politicized in some way. So it is

8:16

it is disturbing the anti vax

8:18

movement. And you may not even remember this, Katie,

8:20

but I actually did a segment on your your show

8:23

years ago about anti

8:25

vaccination movement at that time around

8:28

h one and one. But it's been around

8:31

for a long time, the anti vaccination movement,

8:33

and it's sort of you know, it simmers it. We

8:36

saw measles outbreaks in Brooklyn and

8:38

and Disneyland and Minnesota.

8:40

This seems bigger though you know that

8:43

was a particular group, uh,

8:46

and it really dealt primarily with

8:49

childhood vaccinations and

8:51

now this has expanded

8:53

to um, you know, these

8:56

adults who I

8:59

don't know for one reason or another. I think you

9:01

can understand people of color and

9:03

the terrible history of Tuskegee

9:06

and some of the ways that people of color have

9:09

been abused in scientific research

9:11

in the past, and this kind of deeply

9:13

ingrained mistrust of the medical

9:16

community. So I think you can appreciate

9:18

that. But this is, you know, this

9:20

is a whole other ball

9:22

of wax, isn't it? Yes, it

9:25

really is. And and you know we're we're seeing

9:27

some of this for or really seeing it come

9:29

to light, I should say, you know, in a

9:31

in a pretty dramatic way. Now. I think I think

9:33

I was reading the statistics this morning, Katie Kaiser

9:36

Family Foundation, forty of

9:39

those in rural areas who say they

9:41

absolutely will not take the vaccine.

9:43

It's not any question of hey, I want more information,

9:45

I want to see how this plays out. They're just saying,

9:47

out of the gate they absolutely not take it. And

9:50

what said, what is the explanation? That's

9:52

the curious thing, Like you said, with some people

9:55

who are vaccine hesitants, it is concerns about

9:57

safety or mistrust or you

10:00

know, uh my my grandfather

10:02

was experimented on as part of

10:04

Tuskegee, you know, things like that. With

10:06

this, I think it's almost an extension

10:09

of this pandemic. Isn't even

10:11

real. It's not a hoax. Why would I take a vaccine

10:13

for something that's a hoax.

10:16

I'm not scared for safety

10:18

of it. I just don't. I think the whole thing is

10:20

sort of you know, the scam demic sort

10:22

of thing. So I don't know if that's

10:24

the case. For it's a huge percentage of people were

10:26

talking about here, so maybe there's a some heterogeneity,

10:29

you know, some variety of opinions there.

10:32

But bottom line, if if, if

10:34

the numbers stay that high, we're not going

10:36

to get to hurt immunity based on vaccinating

10:38

adults alone, which is it's

10:42

it's it's so. I mean, gosh, we wait for science

10:44

to rescue us. We don't do the basic public health

10:46

practices, and then when when this truly extraordinary

10:49

scientific achievement occurs

10:51

in the form of this vaccine, people

10:53

don't take it. You know, if you

10:55

are a Martian coming to planet Earth and saying,

10:57

so, let me get this straight.

11:00

So you didn't do anything about the virus.

11:02

You waited, created this amazing medicine, and

11:04

then you don't take the medicine to it.

11:07

Just it doesn't make any sense. It's a head scratcher

11:09

for sure. When do you think

11:11

Sanjay will be able to go

11:14

about our daily lives without mass

11:17

I think it'll be this summer, Katie,

11:19

I I really do. I mean, I know that there's people

11:21

who are painting a more dire prediction

11:23

around that, but you know, we for

11:26

no other reason alone with the warmer weather, and

11:28

then you're gonna really see the blunting

11:30

despite the vaccine hesitancy that we're talking about.

11:32

You are going to see a significant blunting of

11:35

people who are getting very sick, people who are dying.

11:37

And we know that the the vaccine does

11:39

seem to have good evidence that it stops or decreases

11:42

transmission. So I think we're really going to

11:44

get to a pretty good point. I think you'll still

11:46

see masks around, you know, in

11:49

in Hong Kong after Hong Kong

11:51

really wasn't a mask wearing country until after

11:53

Stars and then there was this huge psychological

11:56

impact. That's why they went to mass

11:58

so early in Hong Kong, but they became a mask

12:01

wearing culture. I think you will

12:03

see people who are just frightened still want to

12:05

wear masks in public places. I think

12:07

in flu season, you know, the colder months,

12:09

I think you'll see more masks. I think that may

12:11

become a a larger part

12:13

of our culture. Not a dominant, but I think

12:15

a larger part of our culture. That's interesting

12:18

because I remember being in Tokyo maybe

12:20

gosh, gosh, maybe ten

12:23

ten or twelve years ago and going on

12:25

the train to Kyoto and seeing

12:27

everyone wearing masks and thinking this

12:30

is so weird. Why are they wearing masks?

12:32

And now, of course I understand,

12:35

and you're right. I think when people are on places

12:37

like public transportation, if they're

12:39

in a closed spaces with lots of

12:42

strangers, Um, it actually

12:44

makes sense, doesn't it. I mean,

12:47

you know, one thing we saw, as you may remember,

12:49

is that the flu numbers were way

12:51

down this past season,

12:54

and that you know that that wasn't because of any

12:56

increase in in vaccination or anything.

12:58

That was because of just public health behavior. It's

13:00

always worked, you know. I don't

13:02

know there's a metaphor for this, Katie, right, I

13:04

mean we I don't know. I guess

13:06

it's true in our lives, like we'd rather just take a

13:08

pill for weight loss rather than go exercise,

13:11

and we always want the convenience. And

13:13

and this is this is another

13:15

example of that. We I

13:18

I was struck. And again, we can talk about

13:20

COVID all day long, but the but the I'll

13:23

never forget these these mask researchers from

13:25

Harvard, a guy named Abera Kuran. He

13:27

basically was doing all this modeling all along.

13:29

We were talking to him. He told me that if

13:31

for four weeks, and this is back, you know, October

13:34

November of last year, if for four weeks

13:37

everybody just wore a high filtration

13:39

mask when they went out in public, that's

13:41

it. For four weeks, if everybody did that,

13:44

it would have ended the pandemic. Are you kidding?

13:46

That's incredible. The virus

13:49

would have nowhere to go. It couldn't

13:51

find a willing host. I

13:53

mean, you know that that that sort

13:56

of that sort of concept is something that's

13:58

more than a hundred years old. I

14:01

just I just don't quite you know, I don't

14:03

know. Maybe I'm just being naive, But but you

14:05

hear that and you think it's amazing, right, I think it's

14:07

amazing. And yet we also

14:09

know both of us that in the United

14:12

States that couldn't happen. It just wouldn't

14:14

happen. I mean, human being

14:16

survived and thrived as a species

14:18

because we're reciprocally altruistic.

14:21

There's a reason that it feels good to do good.

14:23

Why should it feel good when I do something

14:25

nice for you? I mean, what purposes that serve my

14:27

evolutionary tree? I don't know, But the

14:29

reality is that it does feel good to do good. We

14:32

encoded that in some way in our DNA

14:35

and then people can't be bothered to wear a mask

14:37

to save tens of thousands of lives. I

14:39

just I'll that may be

14:41

one of the greatest mysteries of all out of

14:43

this whole thing. Well, I just

14:45

want to say, on on behalf of the

14:48

American public, thank you for your

14:50

coverage of this UM.

14:52

I think you're so measured and

14:55

uh so eloquent and

14:58

and honestly calming in

15:00

a way, and I just really

15:03

appreciate all the fantastic

15:05

reporting you've done throughout this pandemic.

15:07

So on behalf of

15:09

a grateful America, I would like to

15:11

say thank you, Sancho Gupta, Well,

15:14

Katie, thank you, thank you, And

15:17

that obviously means a great

15:19

deal in particular coming from you, So I

15:21

appreciate that you know, you get

15:23

it. You know, I mean, you're you are

15:25

the standard obviously by whom we all

15:27

measure ourselves. But also you know

15:29

you were all in these black holes, right

15:32

I mean, I don't know where you are right now. As I

15:34

said, I'm in this tiny little closet. I don't you

15:36

don't get any feedback. Sometimes it's

15:38

been really dispiriting because you

15:41

think, Okay, I'm a medical reporter in

15:43

the middle of a pandemic, that that is my you know,

15:45

that's a job. And

15:47

at the same time, the country in which I'm reporting

15:50

arguably did the worst in the world. I

15:52

mean, I know I keep taking this in that direction,

15:54

but it's just so dispiriting. Did I

15:57

did anyone listen to me? I mean,

15:59

if if, if you're the medical reporter and

16:01

presumably people are are counting on you

16:03

to provide knowledge hopefully that

16:06

will inform how they behave and

16:08

then we do the worst in the world. That's

16:10

that's you know, I'm going to need to reflect

16:12

on that. I think, you know, in

16:15

the years to come, like what is the real

16:17

impact here? One could argue that maybe it

16:19

would have been worse, who knows, you know, but

16:21

it's pretty bad. Well, don't

16:23

get too dispirited, because I think a

16:25

lot of people listen, relied on you,

16:28

and actually acted. So

16:31

even though the track record was bad, your

16:34

information was good and important.

16:36

So thank you. I appreciate that.

16:40

When we come back Sanja and I find some

16:42

optimism and believe it or

16:45

not, brain health, that's right after

16:47

this, let's

16:58

talk about keep sharp because moving

17:01

forward, I think many

17:03

people like me really

17:05

are interested in how to keep our

17:08

cognitive and mental health

17:11

at the top. And I think you

17:14

know, certainly, one big

17:16

change in medicine is that we

17:20

as patients are not passive.

17:23

It turns out, Sang, that there is a

17:25

lot of things that we can do to keep

17:28

our brains in shape, just like

17:30

we can do to keep our bodies

17:32

and our organs and other things

17:34

in shape. And that's why you

17:36

broke keep Sharp. But you have a very

17:39

very personal connection to

17:42

this, I guess, well, obviously because

17:44

of your specialty, but particularly

17:47

about Alzheimer's dementia and

17:51

are failing brain power that

17:53

happens as we age. Tell me about

17:56

that. Well, when I was

17:58

when I was twelve thirteen

18:00

years old, my grandfather, my

18:02

my mother's dad, who I was very

18:05

close to, um developed,

18:08

you know, signs of dementia.

18:10

He had had a a stroke earlier in

18:13

his life that had recovered and

18:15

was now developing. You know, just

18:18

these these um

18:20

periods of time where he he really wasn't aware

18:22

of what was going on. He would sometimes,

18:25

uh make a joke that no one

18:27

else was in on, you know, and it was all these things

18:29

that that I remember really being struck by

18:31

as a kid, because you look at adults and you're

18:33

not used to seeing brain power start

18:35

to diminish. And it was the first time I saw really

18:38

specific things like he could he could

18:40

still um right, but

18:42

he couldn't really read. It was it was all

18:44

these things that became really fascinating

18:47

in a way for me in terms of just how does the brain

18:49

work like that? But also to see

18:51

it in a loved one to wonder, is

18:54

that how genetic is that? Is? That? Is

18:56

my mom going to develop those symptoms? While I one

18:58

day all of that and then you know, fast

19:00

forward, you know, thirty forty years later, and

19:03

and we're still worrying

19:05

about the exact same things, and

19:08

and I haven't really made a lot of progress in terms

19:10

of being able to deal with that. So that was

19:12

that was a large part of what I think inspired

19:15

me to to to write the book What

19:17

has Happened over the last forty years?

19:20

Both from a, you know, a pharmaceutical

19:23

standpoint, but also more importantly, I think from

19:25

a from a lifestyle behavioral standpoint

19:27

in terms of what we know and how

19:29

did that influence you to go into neurology?

19:32

No, you know it's funny, Um, it

19:35

didn't. I actually when I started medical medical

19:37

school, I thought I was going to go into pediatrics,

19:39

and then I did a neurosurgery rotation,

19:42

uh during my third year of med school, and I just sort of

19:44

fell in love. So I came to it quite late. But

19:48

I was always interested in the brain because of my

19:50

grandfather, and so it felt like a very natural

19:52

fit. Let's talk about

19:55

the numbers. Because seven

19:57

million Americans have some evidence

19:59

of pre clinical Alzheimer's disease,

20:02

and by two sixty one

20:04

new case of dementia will be diagnosed

20:06

every four seconds. SANJ,

20:10

what the heck is going on here? Well,

20:12

this is this will become the most

20:14

dominant neurodegenerative disease

20:17

of our time. I think that

20:19

that part, I think is is pretty

20:22

well established at this point. But there

20:24

was two things about the statement that you just made

20:27

that I thought were really important

20:29

in terms of what we can potentially do about it.

20:32

As you point out, there's probably about forty seven million

20:34

people who if you were to look at their brains, they

20:36

would have objective evidence of plaques

20:39

and tangles and things like that, but

20:41

also have no symptoms. That's

20:43

the pre clinical time, right, so

20:46

out a little well,

20:48

it's you know, but I think this is ultimately

20:51

good news, and I'll tell you why. If you

20:53

look at patients with Alzheimer's disease

20:55

and and and able to retrospectively

20:58

look at their lives and their scans and their brains,

21:00

you find we now know that that Alzheimer's

21:03

starts in the brain decades before

21:06

people develop symptoms. Decades so

21:08

you're starting to see the kindling and then

21:10

even plaques and tangles. But the

21:12

fundamental point that neuroscientists really

21:14

started to focus on was almost

21:17

the the the analog of that,

21:19

meaning, Okay, so now you've established

21:22

that you can have a brain that has plaques and tangles

21:24

but still functions normally. So

21:26

why don't we focus on that side

21:28

of things instead of saying, hey, look, let's

21:31

get rid of the plaques and tangles, and we have spent

21:33

billions of dollars testing drugs to do

21:35

that that haven't really worked. What

21:38

if we say, instead, we have established

21:40

that a brain with plaques and tangles can function

21:42

normally. Let's figure out why

21:44

and see if we can basically

21:46

make that an aspiration. Do

21:49

you still have objective

21:51

evidence of Alzheimer's in your brain. Yes?

21:53

Is it consequential? No, because

21:56

you know you you are able to still have

21:59

normal cognitive function, memory, judgment,

22:01

all the things that you associate with a healthy functioning

22:03

brain. The metaphor, in some ways,

22:05

Katie would kind of be like a heart bypass surgery.

22:08

You've got a block blood vessel. Now

22:11

you you go in there and you bypass

22:13

that area of the blockage with a new blood

22:15

vessel. Do you still have heart disease? Yes?

22:19

Is it? Is it? Is it causing

22:21

you some dysfunction? No, because you're getting enough

22:23

blood flow now to the heart. If you can think

22:25

about that same metaphor

22:27

for the brain, Yes, you have plaques,

22:30

but there's so many ways to build all these

22:32

new pathways in the brain to your

22:34

destination, that little blockages

22:37

due to the plaques becoming consequential.

22:40

So is there a tipping point? You know you talk

22:42

about these tangles and plaques in

22:44

your brain. Um, is

22:46

it just a slow growth

22:50

of plaque or slow accumulation

22:52

of plaque and increase kind of

22:55

tangles that then lead

22:57

you from being perfectly functioning?

23:00

You know, maybe some memory issues right

23:02

that once in a while, you you know you're not

23:04

quite as sharp as you were as you when

23:06

you were younger. But where you

23:08

kind of fall off or it's just gradual

23:11

build up of this gunk in your brain, it's

23:14

it's it does seem to be a pretty gradual

23:17

build up, and you can tolerate

23:19

a significant amount of build up

23:21

before you I guess as you as you say, fall

23:23

off. You know, so what exactly

23:25

then pushes people over?

23:27

It's not all of a sudden you have an exponentially

23:30

more plaque, and that leads to the problem.

23:32

Maybe for different people it's a different inflection

23:34

point. But the brain is

23:36

actually quite resilient. I mean, that's the thing

23:39

that came out of this. Even with a lot of plaque and

23:41

tangle, you could actually

23:43

be doing fairly well. I mean the occasional

23:45

memory lapse, like you say, which is probably do more

23:48

to inattention than even anything organic

23:50

in the brain, but other than that doing

23:52

pretty well. And you see societies around

23:54

the world where arguably brain

23:57

function not only

24:00

is it good, it may be improving as

24:02

you get older, which is so incredible,

24:05

and that I think is one of the hopeful things

24:07

about this book, that that our

24:09

brains can get sharper and better as

24:11

we age and dementia is not necessarily

24:15

an inevitable, you know, consequence

24:17

of old age. So um,

24:19

you know, I remember reading Sanjay

24:22

how your brain like by

24:24

the time you're twenty three or twenty

24:26

four and then your prefrontal frontal

24:28

lobe and all this thing that has to stuff

24:31

that has to do with judgment, Like after

24:33

that, your brain really stops

24:35

absorbing and growing

24:38

and changing. I mean that was sort of

24:40

what I always thought, and then it was downhill

24:42

from there. But but this

24:44

book is really

24:47

cause for celebration in some ways, right,

24:50

right, absolutely, you know I

24:52

was told the same thing. Right, You've got a certain number

24:55

of neurons in your brain, and then

24:57

you're going to drain the cash as you go through

24:59

life. Certain things is like drinking alcohol and

25:01

things like that are gonna kill more brain cells. You're never going

25:03

to get them back. I think that's what our parents

25:05

told us to keep us front drink. It

25:08

works well to some extent, but the

25:10

the you know it, but that

25:12

that part of it is not true, and

25:15

that that may be one of the most fundamental new

25:18

things that we learned. And by the

25:20

way, you'll appreciate this, Katie, I'm

25:22

in some ways this book, I'm acting

25:24

as translator. I go to

25:26

these neuroscience meetings because that you

25:28

know, I live this bifurcated life between

25:31

medicine and media. But I'm still going to these neuroscience

25:33

meetings and they're talking about these fascinating

25:35

developments, and yet that hasn't really

25:37

gotten to the to the lay public yet.

25:40

So it's about a ten year gap in

25:42

some ways. Keep Sharp is to just accelerate

25:44

that that knowledge tree. But one of

25:46

the things that they've been talking about is exactly what

25:48

you mentioned, which is neurogenesis.

25:51

Everyone's heard of neuroplasticity, which

25:53

basically means you can recruit neurons,

25:56

brain cells from other areas of the brain to do new

25:58

functions. This is actually

26:00

growing new brain cells, and

26:02

we were told throughout our lives that it basically happened

26:05

twice. You know, when you were a baby in

26:07

your brain was still forming, and maybe

26:09

after an injury like a stroke or traumatic

26:12

brain injury, there may be a process of neurogenesis

26:14

that occurs. But what these

26:16

these neuroscientists have have really

26:19

I've been writing about and focused on for some time

26:21

is that at any age, a healthy

26:23

brain can continue to grow new

26:26

brain cells. You really can't say that

26:28

about any other organ in the body. So

26:30

it's quite incredible. The stem

26:32

cell surges, the various growth factors,

26:34

all these things that converge to

26:36

allow you to grow new brain cells at

26:39

any age. That to me was

26:41

deeply inspiring. It's super exciting.

26:44

But let me dis backtrack for one

26:46

moment, just so I understand the difference

26:48

between neuroplasticity and neurogenesis.

26:52

Um, explain it like I'm a fifth

26:54

grade Okay, So you

26:56

know, when you think of neuroplasticity, it's more like your

26:59

brain is is like plastic it's it's can

27:01

be molded. So let's say there's

27:03

been an area of your brain where someone

27:05

had an injury or a stroke or something. You could sort

27:07

of mold another part of the brain

27:09

to to fill the game, compensate, compensate,

27:12

Yeah, exactly. You know. Take so if it

27:14

was motor strength, for example, on the right

27:16

side of your body that was affected, cells,

27:20

brain cells that normally don't do motor

27:22

function, they're not responsible for motor function, could

27:24

be recruited to do that sort of work.

27:26

Or a sense. You know, even if you lose a

27:28

sense, other senses can start to become

27:31

heightened or even create, right.

27:33

You hear that with blind people, you know, in

27:36

terms of a heightened uh

27:38

sense of I guess all kinds of

27:40

senses, right, that compensate for the fact

27:42

that you can't see exactly and

27:45

that and that is a that is a It's an

27:47

amazing concept. It's what sort of gives

27:49

real birth to physical therapy,

27:51

to cognitive therapy. We're using

27:54

these therapies to basically recruit neurons

27:56

from other parts of your brain to do something. The

27:59

human is so amazing,

28:01

isn't it. It continues

28:03

to wonder and delight me every day.

28:06

And I've been thinking about this for forty

28:08

years, you know, I love it. Um

28:11

Neurogenesis is the growth of

28:13

new brain cells. So this

28:16

this, this, this flies in the face of

28:18

what we were all told when we were young, that you only have

28:20

a certain number of brain cells and that's it. This

28:22

is basically saying you can create new brain cells

28:24

at any age. The metaphor I think that may make

28:26

it more more accessible,

28:29

is right

28:31

now, our COVID life

28:34

is kind of like how our brain operates. And what

28:36

I mean is that you probably are at home.

28:38

You may drive to the grocery store. Maybe

28:40

you drive to a couple of different places and

28:43

you but you're not You're you're mostly in in

28:45

just a small, small square sort

28:47

of area of place. You know

28:49

how to get to all those places really well. You could drive

28:51

there with your eyes closed, no problem.

28:54

But but you you're not traveling

28:56

around the rest of the world. You're not even traveling

28:58

around the rest of the state right now. That's

29:01

kind of how our brains are. We use our whole brain, but

29:05

the time we're using our brains.

29:08

That's the thing. If you start to actually

29:10

do things to inspire neurogenesis

29:12

in your brain, it's kind of like building new cities and

29:14

visiting those new cities in your brain. It's

29:17

it's it's a it's a little bit of a simplistic metaphor,

29:19

but it makes me really happy to think about because

29:22

visiting other places in your brain is an incredibly

29:25

joyous thing. You start to see

29:27

patterns that you would have otherwise missed. You

29:29

connect dots, you're thinking is clearer,

29:33

and and and that's the whole concept of

29:35

of of what neurogenesis can do for

29:37

you. When we come back Sanche's

29:40

advice on how to keep our brains

29:42

strong, especially as

29:45

we age.

29:57

We'll take me on a trip, do

30:00

and how can I visit these

30:02

new places in my brain? Because

30:04

this is really exciting And

30:06

um, I know your book has a lot

30:09

of recommendations for ways

30:11

that we can encourage neurochantesis.

30:14

So what do I do? Son J? Yeah,

30:17

so you know. The way I'll tell you the way

30:19

that I wrote the book was I took

30:21

all these these neuroscience concepts and try to make

30:23

them accessible and also help you set

30:25

up a substrate for your brain in terms

30:28

of, you know, how you nourish yourself, how you

30:30

rest your brain, things like that. So the basics

30:32

are there, but your question is more about

30:34

taking the trip and building the new brain cells.

30:37

So after you sort of you know, make sure and

30:39

it's not challenging to get to the right sort

30:42

of place in terms of your diet, you

30:44

know, uh, and and the amount of rest

30:46

that you need. That's important. But

30:49

the biggest I think difference with

30:51

growing new brain cells versus how we typically

30:53

think about strengthening our brain is

30:56

that you don't necessarily want

30:58

to just keep doing the same things

31:00

over and over again. The whole practice makes

31:02

perfect sort of teaching the

31:05

killing drill sort of teaching that a lot

31:07

of schools focus on. It's important

31:09

to to understand and and be

31:11

able to learn concepts. But

31:14

that's kind of like those roads I was talking about

31:16

that you travel so well, that's like getting even

31:18

better at traveling those same roads. Now

31:20

you can really do with your eyes closed. Now you know

31:22

it's it's it's totally second nature

31:24

to you. But

31:27

if you were to do different things,

31:30

totally different things, things that get you out of your

31:32

comfort zone a little bit, a

31:34

totally different sort of hobby, that's

31:37

when you're starting to actually build

31:39

some of these new brain cells, create some of these new cities,

31:42

create some of the new roads, whatever,

31:44

whatever metaphor you want to apply to it. That's

31:48

that's a much better way

31:50

to sort of do that versus

31:52

the practice makes perfect. So if practice

31:55

makes perfect, change is what's going

31:57

to build the neurogenesis. It's

31:59

going to build the resili and redundancy

32:01

in your brain. So I played the

32:03

piano. Should I not

32:05

focus as much on the piano because I thought

32:08

about taking lessons even though

32:10

I took for ten years and I played by ear,

32:12

But I enjoyed the piano, And we actually

32:14

have a beautiful piano that

32:16

Jay and I bought each other for our birthdays

32:19

back in the day. Yeah, and but

32:21

but should I learn how to play the guitar or

32:23

the viol The violence sounds just horrible

32:26

if you're not good at it. But what do you

32:28

mean, should I try a new instrument? Yeah?

32:30

You know, so I asked a lot of neuroscientists

32:33

about this, because one thing about writing a book like this

32:35

is that it affects everybody, right, So even

32:37

the guys and gals who are who are

32:39

doing all this research, they're thinking about what to

32:42

incorporate into their own lives. And there are

32:44

a couple of things that sort of jumped out at me. One

32:46

is that something new is I think really

32:48

important. That's that's that that is

32:50

a key, But something that you can

32:52

also use your hands with

32:54

that you're actually activating your motor motor cortex

32:57

as you're doing, seems to be even more beneficial.

32:59

So so an instrument is great, um

33:02

painting, Try a new

33:05

one because a new one? Yes, I mean I mean

33:07

the piano again. I

33:10

want to be careful here. I did this Bill

33:12

Clinton. I was talking to him about brain

33:14

health the other day and he got on my case

33:16

because he said he loves crossword puzzles, and he's

33:18

like, so you tell me crossword puzzles are not good for No,

33:21

No, I'm not saying don't do those things.

33:24

But understand what you're accomplishing. You

33:26

are you are. You're paving those roads

33:28

really really well on your brain, and that is great, there's

33:30

great value in that. But if

33:32

it is true that you can build all these new roads,

33:35

and the question you're asking me is how to do that, then

33:37

it would be it would mean doing something different.

33:40

So I'm not saying stop playing the piano,

33:43

keep driving those roads, but if you want

33:46

to start going on these trips around

33:48

your brain, doing something different,

33:50

and preferably doing it in a way

33:52

that maybe even a little uncomfortable. So

33:55

if you're painting, and I just bring up painting, because

33:57

this is the one that came up set

34:00

all times among these neuroscientists. Learn

34:02

how to paint. I'm a terrible artist. Learn how to paint,

34:05

do whatever you can, and do it with your non dominant

34:07

hand. Yes,

34:10

this was another. In fact, they went so far

34:12

as to say that tonight at dinner, when you're eating

34:14

your dinner, try eating your meal with

34:16

your non dominant hand. And just see

34:19

what happens. And it's really interesting,

34:21

Katie, because we think of building the brain means

34:23

reading books and gaining new knowledge,

34:26

and that's true, but in terms of actually

34:28

creating neurogenesis, it's more like you think

34:30

about a physical workout. I'm gonna do something

34:32

different and I'm going to actually

34:35

now focus the less

34:37

side of my brain, which normally isn't

34:39

doing motor function. That's delicate or

34:41

fine. On actually doing that sort of stuff,

34:44

it has real relevance because again, you're

34:46

you're actually building these roads in these cities in

34:48

your brain, and that's fun. Try

34:50

it. It's fun. But on a more

34:52

practical level. To your original question, Let's

34:55

say one day the road

34:57

that you drive so well becomes

35:00

locked by one of these amyloid plaques

35:02

that we're talking about, some of these tangles. Right

35:05

now, you know that road really well, but you

35:07

know what, you don't really have other roads to

35:09

get from point A to point B. If

35:11

you've been building all these roads by

35:14

painting with your left hand and spilling your food,

35:16

but by eating with your non dominant hand, whatever

35:18

it might be, you're actually building roads.

35:21

This gets back to the bypass analogy.

35:23

Do you still have flacks and tangles in your brain.

35:26

Yes, So are these the cognitive

35:28

reserves that you're talking about, Yes,

35:31

the cognitive reserves, the cognitive

35:33

resiliency, which is often they often

35:35

use these terms interchangeably, but

35:37

that's exactly it. We have the capacity

35:40

to to have significant cognitive

35:42

reserve. We're barely tapping into

35:44

that. If you look at societies around the world

35:47

where people are living into their nineties and hundreds

35:49

and have hardly any dementia.

35:52

The presumption now is that if you were to image

35:54

their brains, they might have plaques and

35:56

tangles. If you're doing autopsy,

35:58

they may be diagnosed with all Heimers, because

36:00

that's how Alzheimer's was diagnosed, was that autopsy.

36:03

But the truth of the matter is that during their lives

36:06

they had perfectly normal cognitive function. Before

36:08

we talk about your twelve week program, I'm

36:10

just curious in terms of diagnostic

36:13

advances and and therapeutic

36:16

advances. I mean, will

36:18

we get to a point where someone can have

36:20

a brain scan and say, Okay, here's

36:22

the status of your tangles and plaques,

36:24

and here's what you need to do. Because brain

36:27

imagery, you know, I've ways found it so

36:30

interesting even when you talk about like antidepressants

36:33

and you know, serotonin reuptake

36:35

inhibitors or whatever they're called ss

36:37

is. Yeah,

36:40

that that you know, there was never a

36:42

way until recently to kind of measure

36:45

how the brain was reacting. They would just

36:47

kind of it would be very anecdotal,

36:49

you kind of throw it against the wall to see what sticks.

36:52

And now we have so much better

36:54

brain imagery. So will

36:56

that translate into dimension

36:59

all time person and preventative

37:01

strategies that we could follow. I

37:03

think, I think so. I mean, we're we're making a lot

37:05

of progress on brain imaging, and

37:07

you're absolutely right. I mean, the brain has long been sort

37:10

of considered this black box only

37:12

measured by its inputs and its outputs. You

37:14

really couldn't get a good

37:17

idea of its internal machinery. But

37:19

now we can. I mean, I

37:21

don't know that we're at the point yet where we can determine

37:23

degree of severity of

37:25

of dementia based on a scan, and

37:28

as I think we will. We think we'll get to that

37:30

point. I think we'll

37:32

get to the point where we can very quantifiably

37:35

measure the burden

37:37

of plaques and tangles and other things in the brain.

37:40

But well, but Again, what I think is so extraordinary,

37:43

Katie, is that you could have two people

37:45

with the exact same scan essentially and

37:48

very different clinical pictures.

37:50

One person may be completely debilitated, obviously

37:53

having dementia, and the other person may be functionally

37:56

cognitively normal. And again,

37:59

I look, do

38:01

I don't want to I don't want to have flax

38:03

and tangles in my brain. But mostly what I don't

38:05

want to have is the cognitive dysfunction

38:08

that comes with that. It's a different way

38:10

of thinking. It really is, like I think,

38:12

again, we focus so much on making someone's images

38:15

look better or whatever, and what

38:17

the person really wants is them to be

38:19

better, and there are ways to do that,

38:21

you know, with lifestyle changes. I mean, I'm

38:23

a neurosurgeon saying this, by the way, just remember

38:26

that because I'm a specialist. That's that's what I

38:28

was trying to do. And yet I'm now becoming

38:31

increasingly convinced that these types

38:33

of changes that we talked about in this book

38:35

really can can prevent you

38:37

from developing the symptoms

38:40

I was going to say. So you're saying that brain scans

38:42

are just part of the story. It's sort of

38:44

like it's half of the story

38:46

because even with them, you could

38:49

have these cognitive reserves

38:52

developed and be very

38:54

asymptomatic. Well, let's talk about

38:56

this twelve week program. Sharp

38:59

take us through this deeps because I'm all

39:01

ears. It's it's twelve

39:03

weeks where I basically based

39:06

on how I think your brain is going to change

39:09

and and react to things that you're now

39:11

doing that are different or new. Um,

39:14

it all sort of builds on itself. I start

39:16

off by really making sure you get the basics

39:18

right, and I'll tell you it's it's not

39:21

that complicated. There are a few big

39:23

messages in terms of the overall getting

39:26

it the substrate right, and as

39:28

you might guess, diet nourishment

39:30

is one of them. But but the big the

39:32

big takeaway here is I think generally people

39:34

know what a healthy diet is, and

39:37

for those who don't, there's some information in there about

39:39

what's specifically healthy for the brain. There

39:41

are some distinctions between the brain and the

39:43

body in this regard. One is one

39:45

is sugar. Um. You know, we we

39:47

we talk a lot about sugar, and people know that they shouldn't

39:50

need too much sugar. We used to get sugar,

39:52

you know, twice a year when fruit fell from

39:54

the trees. Even honey was protected

39:56

by the bees. And now we're eating a hundred

39:58

and thirty pounds a year on average of sugar. But

40:01

what was what was a learning point for me

40:04

was that the brain is exquisitely sensitive

40:06

to sugar. So typically you eat a

40:08

lot of sugar and you think, well, that's being

40:11

absorbed into cells. I have a lot of energy, whatever

40:13

it might be. These these are these are a lot of calories

40:15

that are now providing the energy the brain.

40:17

As soon as sugar levels get beyond a

40:19

certain point, and it's a pretty narrow range, the

40:22

receptors basically shut down. So

40:25

you could run into a situation where you're taking

40:27

in a lot of calories, a lot of energy,

40:30

and starving your brain at the same time. And

40:33

that that is a situation that leads

40:35

to a whole a whole cascade

40:37

of events that you can pretty easily

40:39

avoid. So that's you know, as

40:42

much as I talk about in the first few

40:44

weeks of what to do, there

40:46

are several things that you're

40:48

told not to do just to avoid and

40:50

that's that's more than half the battle,

40:53

and they're not that hard to do. I also

40:55

try to make the case for things like sleep,

40:57

which you've read a lot about I've read a

40:59

lot about, but reminding people just

41:01

how metabolically active the brain is

41:04

during sleep, and this wonderful conversation

41:06

that I'm having with you right now will be encoded

41:08

into my hippocampus if I get good sleep

41:10

tonight, so that twenty years from now I can

41:13

recall this and remember it. A lot

41:15

of times people say that they can't remember

41:17

something. It's not that they can't remember that, it's

41:19

not that they forgot it, it's that they never

41:21

actually stored it in their memory centers

41:23

in the first place. So these

41:26

are strategies to help that. But

41:28

then, you know, sort of the midpoint of the book is

41:30

really about and the

41:32

the evidence based things that we know improve

41:34

brain health. Starts off by asking

41:37

you to define what you think a healthy brain is.

41:39

What is a healthy brain? We know what a healthy

41:42

heart is, it pumps a certain amount of blood

41:44

out with each beat. What is a healthy brain?

41:46

You know? And and I spend a little bit of time

41:49

talking through talking

41:51

the reader through how they define that, because

41:53

it is different for different people. Robert

41:56

Zapolski, who is this evolutionary biologist,

41:59

I was interviewing him, and he and her forget. He

42:01

said to me that a healthy brain is a

42:03

is a is a brain that has a bigger circle

42:06

of you, is what he said,

42:08

which basically means you let more people into

42:10

your circle. Now why is that relevant. Well,

42:12

it's relevant in you know, ancient

42:15

times because you were more likely to be protected

42:17

by the group. But now it's this idea

42:19

of what true connection

42:22

does for for protection

42:24

of the brain. And and and now to

42:26

your earlier point, measurable. You

42:28

know, a lot of what we talked about is based

42:31

on objective data that we couldn't collect some

42:34

time ago. But I will tell you something fascinating

42:36

because I find this this topic really interesting.

42:38

But there's this loneliness researcher named Stephanie

42:41

Cacciope. She's an oregan. I know. I

42:44

at the in Chicago. Her husband

42:46

was one of the pre eminent scientists

42:49

about memory, and then he died, died,

42:51

I know. And now she's an oregan. And I talked

42:54

to her from time to time. It's

42:56

been tough, as you might imagine. And she's by herself

42:58

an Oregon, which you know, has a loneliness. Researchers

43:00

through this pandemic has been such a

43:03

significant thing for her. But she said

43:05

this thing to me that I'll never forget, and

43:07

and and I talk a little bit about it in the book, which

43:09

is we talk about connection, like right now,

43:12

you and I get to zoom and have this call about

43:14

you know this, this conversation that's very

43:16

interesting to me. Most connections

43:19

that we have with friends, maybe even

43:21

family to some extent, are pretty cursory.

43:24

How you doing, I'm doing fine. How you doing, I'm

43:26

doing fine. You know. It's it's how

43:28

do you get to a level of more profound

43:30

connection, because it wasn't.

43:32

As you've well heard, it's not about the number of connections

43:35

you have. It's about the quality. But what does that

43:37

mean quality? And one thing Stephanie

43:39

said to me was a

43:42

sort of shortcut to building the

43:44

quality and the high intensity connection

43:47

is to be vulnerable, to ask

43:49

for help, to share your problems,

43:52

which is totally counterintuitive to how

43:54

I think about things. I would rather not burden somebody

43:57

with things. But I took it

43:59

to heart. And I was talking my parents, who are in their late

44:01

seventies in Florida through this pandemic,

44:03

and we were having those conversations how you

44:05

do and how the girls. That was the conversation

44:07

for months, and I said to them, I

44:09

asked them a question about a problem

44:11

I was having one of my cars that my

44:13

wife's car had some smoke coming from the

44:15

hood. They're both engineers, and

44:18

for days, Katie, we started to have these

44:20

really interesting conversations about cars,

44:22

about their history of being interested in engineering,

44:25

in all this stuff, figure out

44:27

the way to build the meaningful

44:29

connection um that

44:32

that is. That is probably one of the most critical points,

44:34

and and they're there pretty easy

44:36

ways to do it. I think the point

44:38

is connection, deep connection

44:41

is good for your brain, yes, and good

44:43

for you, and I think you know it's good

44:46

for you in general. So the last

44:48

part of the twelve week program, I'll just tell you quickly,

44:50

is more about what we started talking about initially,

44:53

which is, then, how do you create Now

44:55

that I've primed your brain for neurogenesis,

44:58

giving you all the right amounts of the right

45:00

hormones, not too much epinephrin, but

45:02

enough oxytocin, and all that sort

45:05

of is happening by going through the first

45:07

few weeks of the program, Now how do you build

45:09

the new brain cells? And that gets to

45:11

a lot of what we're talking about in terms of that cognitive

45:13

reserve. You know, actually, um

45:16

uh, doing these different types of activities,

45:19

doing similar activities in a totally

45:21

different way, doing things with different

45:23

people, doing them in at different times, eliminating

45:26

certain things completely from your regiment

45:28

for a while, adding in something totally unrelated.

45:31

It's it was fascinating to me. I

45:33

tried it. I based this entire

45:36

thing on my conversations with these neuroscientists

45:38

who all tried it and written

45:40

about it and published it in journals. It's

45:42

fun, It's a fun ride. I was gonna

45:44

say, so, give me some ideas real

45:47

quickly before we go about things I could

45:49

do. Should I take a pottery class, Should

45:51

I learn Italian? Should I pick

45:53

up the guitar? What should I do? I

45:55

think that, you know, I

45:58

think the two big ingredients are it's would

46:00

be something you really haven't done before. This isn't

46:02

about trying to again build

46:04

a two lane highway where you're used to driving one.

46:06

This is about getting to you know, to

46:10

Italy instead of staying in New

46:12

York or or going somewhere even different in

46:14

Argentina, you know, totally different.

46:16

If you can do something that involves your

46:19

your your hands, like pottery or painting.

46:21

Even better, that was something that came up over

46:24

and over again. And then the second

46:26

ingredient, I guess, and this is a little bit

46:28

more vague, is that it's

46:30

it's good if it makes you a little uncomfortable.

46:33

I And I know that sounds almost euphemistic

46:35

or too easy or too simple, but the

46:38

whole point is that when you start

46:40

to release certain hormones

46:42

in the body, like some stress

46:45

hormone, stress can be good. It

46:47

really helps that process of neurogenesis.

46:49

So a little bit of discomfort with something totally

46:51

new, preferably using your hands, that's

46:53

a pretty good prescription. Before

46:56

we go, can you tell me about

46:59

foods that are healthy brain foods?

47:01

I know that you hear about fish, you

47:03

hear about nuts, you hear

47:05

about extra virgin olive oil. Are

47:08

all those things sort of good brain food?

47:10

And what else should I be eating other than staying

47:13

away from the cupcakes? Yeah? Nor

47:15

Yes, definitely the sugar thing I mentioned

47:18

already, So I mean that's just that's just a I

47:20

think you could accomplish sev of

47:23

all the other things by basically just

47:26

eliminating added sugar from your diet. But

47:28

I think the adage what

47:31

is good for the heart is good for the brain remains

47:33

true. But I think with the brain there

47:35

are a few a few distinctions.

47:37

One is, if

47:39

an apple a day keeps a doctor away, then berries

47:42

are what's good for the brain. Berries

47:45

really good data around berries. Really start to add

47:47

berries into your diet. I think that's

47:49

one of the big ones. And while most

47:52

of the neuroscientists did not advocate a caloric

47:54

restriction diet, necessarily a

47:56

calorie reduced diet overall to

47:58

the extent that you can do it. We create a

48:00

lot of metabolic byproducts from

48:03

from overeating, and a lot of those

48:05

metabolic byproducts get accumulated

48:07

in the brain. So if you

48:10

can cut down on the amount of energy

48:13

that has to be metabolized in that way, you

48:15

can make a lot of progress. Even though

48:17

berries may be good for your brain.

48:19

You don't believe in this whole idea of supplements

48:22

or superfoods, do you, now?

48:24

I you know. I think super food first of all,

48:26

is a really vaguely defined term. As

48:29

part of this book, I asked a lot of people, and I even

48:31

talked to your friend Mark Hyman about this as well.

48:33

It's it doesn't it doesn't have a really

48:36

objective meaning. There are some foods

48:38

that are maybe better than others. But I

48:40

think the thing about supplements that struck me

48:43

was was the idea that for

48:45

certain people who have deficiencies,

48:48

then supplementing that part of their diets important.

48:51

But you know, Katie, in this country, and

48:53

I'm not advocating this, but in this country, even

48:56

the standard American diet, like if

48:58

you go to a McDonald's, even the

49:00

food is largely fortified, you

49:03

know, with all these different vitamins and micronutrients

49:05

and things like that. That that is a decision that

49:07

our US d A made decades ago

49:10

to fortify food so that people

49:12

wouldn't develop basic nutritional

49:14

deficiencies. So oftentimes we're supplementing

49:16

something that doesn't need to be supplemented. A

49:19

lot of a lot of the approaches

49:22

more in terms of what you're not eating versus what you

49:24

are eating, and that that you know that

49:26

holds up to be true. So berries

49:29

I single out because they are one of these

49:31

foods whose active ingredients are particularly

49:33

good at crossing the blood brain barrier, particularly

49:36

good at creating these scaffoldings,

49:38

you know, for the neurogenesis

49:40

that we talked about earlier, So I

49:43

put that high on the list. But what

49:45

about you know, I see this stuff in the drug store

49:47

and I'm like, Oh, should I be taking like privig

49:50

in or should I be taking what is

49:52

it like? Almost isn't it like jellyfish

49:55

to run derivatives and stuff? And

49:57

I'm like, should I be doing that? Well?

50:00

You know, I the privileged one is interesting because

50:02

you know, Eric Kendell is very involved

50:04

with this, and he's a very prominent neuroscientists

50:07

did a lot of the original jellyfish research

50:10

basically trying to figure out where the memory

50:12

stores were in jellyfish, how jellyfish

50:15

remembered, and isolating those stores

50:17

and basically creating a supplement. It's

50:19

a fascinating idea. I

50:21

don't know that it really works. I mean, it's

50:23

very hard to study this sort of thing. You know, it takes

50:26

decades long studies to prove that something

50:28

like that's improving memory. What we

50:30

do have is is decades long data

50:32

on societies around the world where

50:35

dementia is essentially so rare that it's

50:37

reportable. You know, if somebody developed dementia,

50:39

you'd report that in the medical journal. But

50:41

my my point is though that with these

50:44

we don't need to have the supplements. We know

50:46

it's possible to be done because

50:48

we see it having already transpired

50:50

real time and large societies across

50:52

the world, and in

50:54

those societies, you know, I took

50:57

the neuroscientific data that we had and

51:00

tried to see, are are they in some

51:02

ways applying that unwittingly?

51:04

I mean they didn't read these papers obviously, but

51:07

were they sort of just by default

51:09

essentially following that that right

51:11

diet, following that right amount of movement, following

51:15

the right amount of rest. So movement, for example,

51:17

I'll just tell you this was an interesting one. If

51:19

you look at movement, it's probably

51:22

the only thing that has has

51:24

the longest amount of evidence behind

51:27

it in terms of actually creating neurogenesis.

51:29

All of this is new research, but that that's sort

51:31

of the oldest new research. But

51:33

what was fascinating to me was that

51:36

what does movement mean to people?

51:39

Right? I use the word movement instead of exercise,

51:42

because what they found was that moderate

51:45

movement, brisk walking that

51:47

tended to be a lot better for neurogenesis

51:50

than intense exercise. Now,

51:52

why would that be Well, it turns out

51:54

that when you briskly exercise,

51:57

you're releasing a lot of what is known as brain

52:00

derived neurotrophic factor. That's kind

52:02

of like the miracle grow for for your brain. As

52:04

was described, if you are intensely

52:06

exercising, you also tend to release a

52:08

lot of epinephrin and epinefrin

52:11

is actually a blocker. It's a it's a

52:13

cascade blocker of what b

52:15

d NF, this neurotrophic factor does.

52:18

I know, I'm throwing a lot of language at you, but I'm

52:21

FOLLI. Intense exercise may be great

52:23

for your heart and you know,

52:26

maybe even weight loss, whatever your goals.

52:28

Maybe, but for your brain, intense

52:31

exercise actually is not good

52:33

and you find that can actually be a little

52:35

bit destructive by releasing these stress

52:37

hormones that block the beneficial

52:40

effects that exercise should have on your brain.

52:42

I never knew that, and it

52:45

so like I think. I go for a walk as

52:47

often as I can with Rebecca. Now, that wasn't something

52:50

I did. I was out there thinking, I got forty

52:52

minutes, I'm gonna go hard. That was

52:54

my sort of approach, and sometimes

52:56

I still feel the need to do that. But walking

52:59

is great. Brisk here here,

53:01

here's the best way to do it. If you want to just make it for

53:03

your brain. Take a brisk walk would

53:06

a close friend or family member and

53:08

talk about your problems, and that

53:10

sort of brings all these things together in

53:13

some ways that we've been talking about. Take your take your

53:15

you're very smoothie with you, and you've pretty

53:17

much nailed it. I'm curious

53:20

about social media and the way we live

53:22

our lives. You know, we're constantly distracted,

53:25

we have constant incoming information,

53:27

our attention spans have shortened.

53:30

I read a fascinating study a while ago

53:33

that said the part of your brain I think

53:35

it's a hypocampus you can correct me if i'm

53:37

wrong, responsible for

53:39

for creativity. It only

53:42

fires up when you're bored.

53:44

And that's why you have so many great

53:46

ideas when you're in this shower, when

53:49

you're not distracted, or when you're taking

53:51

a long walk and you don't have your phone

53:53

with you. And I'm curious the impact

53:55

of all this mental stimulus

53:58

or stimuli has on

54:01

nerroa genesis and keeping

54:03

our brains healthy. You know, yeah,

54:05

okay, that that that's a It's a great topic and

54:07

I approach it as a person who wrote this book

54:09

frankly, also as a dad three

54:12

teenage girls, because and this is conversation

54:14

topic number one in our household all the time.

54:16

And I'll tell and I'll tell you two things that actually came

54:19

out of a dinner time conversation I recently had.

54:21

Um And I try not to be too

54:23

preachy with with my girls,

54:25

although sometimes I can say I don't use

54:27

this line often, but I can say I did write a book

54:30

about that. The girls hate it when

54:32

I do that, but it's true, and I can use

54:34

that as a wild card to actually get them to listen

54:36

to what I'm saying about the fact

54:38

that when you are distracted

54:41

like that and you think maybe even

54:43

you are multitasking, the

54:45

brain is actually not that good at multitasking.

54:48

It actually requires a lot of energy

54:51

to shift back and forth between things,

54:53

between scrolling through your social media

54:55

feed, trying to have a conversation, trying to

54:57

look your dad in the eye when he's talking to you,

54:59

whatever might be. It's a it's hard

55:01

to transition back and forth between all

55:03

these things. We think we're being efficient, and

55:06

we're not, because the amount of energy it takes

55:08

to actually make the switch is a lot

55:10

higher than we realized. That's kind of novel

55:12

thinking because you know, it's always been about multitasking.

55:15

How many things can I do at the same time. But

55:17

the second thing, which I think is, you

55:19

know I worry about the most, and I think is what

55:21

you're saying as well. Is that leaving

55:23

aside just the content on social media

55:25

for a second, and just the fact that it's

55:28

so incessant, Like you're saying, we

55:31

talk about stress and on

55:34

the brain and on the body. Stress

55:36

in and of itself is not the enemy.

55:38

I mean, in fact, we need stress. I was

55:41

a little nervous to do this podcast with

55:43

you today because I have so much respect for

55:45

you. But it makes me a little stressed because I have that nervousness.

55:47

But it's good. I need that because I prepared

55:49

for this. But the

55:51

problem is that we can't get a break

55:53

from the stress. Social media screens,

55:57

the incessant nature of it make it very

55:59

difficult for us to ever turn the stress

56:01

off. We don't want

56:03

to turn it off completely or never have it. That would

56:05

not be a worthy or or possible

56:08

goal. But we

56:10

don't get breaks from it. And that's

56:12

what I worry about the most. With with my

56:14

girls, myself to some extent, although I'm much more

56:17

aware of it. But that's what I worry about, Katie.

56:19

So you're saying that it's really important

56:22

to put the phones down, put them away,

56:25

even studies that show if it's on a

56:27

table, it's distracting

56:30

by its very presence, because

56:32

you can't have a deep, focused conversation

56:35

with that thing in your line

56:37

of sight, right that that that

56:39

the distraction, just

56:41

the presence of it, whatever it may be, it

56:43

takes you away from from being in the moment.

56:46

And again, I know some of this sounds so euphemistic,

56:48

but and maybe you've heard it all before, but

56:50

now the data is there. I mean, I

56:53

mean, the smartphone has only really

56:55

been around since two thousand five, Katie.

56:57

I mean you think about that fifteen years,

57:00

and it's not that long, and we've

57:02

had some of the biggest behavioral shifts

57:04

ever recorded in human history

57:06

during that time. You talk

57:09

about kind of constant stress, and

57:11

you need stress in them recovery. I guess

57:13

that's because your your brain is producing

57:15

too much cortisolve, right, I mean, the stress

57:18

hormone or is it doing

57:20

a lot of other stuff of physiologically.

57:23

I think I think the thing that that is

57:26

becoming clear is that the absolute

57:28

amount may not be as important

57:31

as how long your selves are are

57:33

sort of exposed to the to the stress hormone,

57:35

you can have these amazingly high spikes.

57:38

And they saw this, uh in people

57:41

fighter pilots, people who are in these incredible

57:43

situations for periods of time, really

57:46

high spikes, so high in fact, that the blood

57:48

vessels in the back of their eyes would change. They would

57:50

have to account for blurinus

57:52

of vision because they're they're they're a benefference

57:54

spikes so high. But when

57:57

they weren't in that situation,

58:00

they had incredibly low levels of

58:02

stress, really high heart rate variability.

58:05

Heart rate variability is a really interesting measure

58:07

of this because if you have high heart

58:09

rate variability, that's good. That

58:12

means that means your your your blood vesseles

58:14

aren't clamped down by all the stress

58:16

hormones. They're they're kind of loose

58:18

and can the variability is good. And

58:21

so it wasn't the spikes in

58:23

in cortisol, epineffer and other

58:25

stress hormones as much as it was them

58:28

staying plateaung at an at

58:30

an unreasonably high level. Interesting

58:33

when it comes to stress. In closing,

58:35

because I've kept you far too long Sunday,

58:37

but I could talk to you all day. Is what

58:40

is the impact of this

58:43

year plus of really

58:45

for many people, this constant

58:47

stress, And how

58:50

is that going to, in your view,

58:53

affect us in terms

58:55

of collective trauma? You

58:57

know, we we have we have pretty pretty

58:59

good data on what these stress

59:01

hormones in prolonged periods of time

59:04

due to the brain um we've you

59:06

know, we're, we're. That's been documented now

59:09

in all sorts of different studies. Nothing

59:11

quite like this, obviously, because this is so

59:13

unique, and that's why I still preface

59:16

by saying I don't know for sure. With great humility,

59:18

I try and answer some of these questions, but

59:21

I think there will

59:23

be an impact. But I think that we've also learned

59:26

that we can grow new brain

59:29

cells, though we can recover from that.

59:31

We can create situations where

59:33

it doesn't become such a incessant

59:36

memory that that it basically leads

59:38

to post traumatic stress, which is a real concern

59:40

as well. There will be people that

59:43

have significant amounts of post traumatic stress, but

59:46

our ability to treat that, to recognize

59:48

it is better than before, and our

59:50

ability to to build new brain cells

59:52

to help compensate. Is better than before,

59:55

so impact significant,

59:57

but solutions you know emerging

59:59

as well. So it

1:00:01

is possible to heal. I hear

1:00:03

you say it is possible

1:00:05

to heal, and and we we we've

1:00:08

seen it before, you know, with other even

1:00:10

other pandemics. A

1:00:15

huge thank you to my friend Dr Sanjay

1:00:18

Gupta, who you can watch on CNN

1:00:21

or listen to on his daily podcast

1:00:24

Coronavirus Fact or

1:00:26

Fiction. His new book, by the

1:00:28

way, is called Keep Sharpe, How to Build

1:00:30

a Better Brain at any age. And

1:00:32

I want you all to know I just ate

1:00:34

breakfast using my left

1:00:37

hand. Next

1:00:44

Question with Katie Kurik is a production of My Heart

1:00:47

Media and Katie Kurk Media. The

1:00:49

executive producers Army, Katie

1:00:51

Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising

1:00:54

producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate

1:00:56

producers Derek Clements, Adriana

1:00:58

Fassio, and m Lee Pinto. The

1:01:01

show is edited and mixed by Derrick

1:01:03

Clements. For more information about

1:01:05

today's episode, or to sign up for my

1:01:07

morning newsletter wake Up Call, go to

1:01:09

Katie Currect dot com. You can also

1:01:11

find me at Katie Currect on Instagram.

1:01:14

And on my social media channels.

1:01:16

For more podcasts from I heart Radio,

1:01:18

visit the I heart Radio app, Apple

1:01:21

podcast, or wherever you listen to

1:01:23

your favorite shows.