0:00

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and welcome

0:02

to Next Question Today.

0:05

Now to growing concerns about the deadly coronavirus

0:08

officially hitting the US. Los Angeles

0:11

County, where ten million people live, has

0:13

declared a public health emergency.

0:15

In Washington State, they are confirming now

0:18

the first US death. There is

0:20

a confirmed case here in New

0:22

York City. Coronavirus is now in the

0:24

nation's capital, Texas, Arizona,

0:27

Florida, Illinois, Massachusetts.

0:30

What began as a distant and mysterious

0:32

illness in China at the end of twenty

0:34

nineteen has made its way around

0:36

the world and is now spreading across

0:38

the US. As of this recording,

0:41

the majority of states have confirmed cases

0:43

of coronavirus that range

0:46

from a few to hundreds.

0:48

Here in New York City, where I live, there at least

0:50

thirty six confirmed cases, and

0:53

Mayor Bill de Blasio says they're

0:55

coming in intensely. Just

0:57

this week, I had my own brush with the virus,

1:00

which is now officially called COVID

1:03

nineteen. On Saturday,

1:05

March seven, I ran into an old friend, Rick

1:07

Cotton, who's the head of the New York and New

1:09

Jersey Port Authority. Two days

1:11

later news broke that he had tested positive

1:14

for COVID nineteen. We

1:16

only had seen each other on the street very

1:18

briefly and didn't have any physical

1:20

contact, but still, in this climate,

1:23

you can never be too careful. After

1:25

I heard the news, I immediately went

1:27

home and called the c d C. I

1:30

also called the New York State Department

1:32

of Health and spoke to my own

1:34

doctor as well. In addition

1:36

to them, I spoke to the first guest

1:38

on this podcast. They all assured

1:40

me I was at very low risk for contracting

1:43

COVID nineteen and there was no

1:45

need to self quarantine. So

1:47

I'll continue to take the same precautions

1:50

as you are, hopefully washing

1:52

my hands, staying away from large

1:54

crowds, and monitoring

1:56

my symptoms. But all of this

1:58

leads me to my next question, what

2:01

is coronavirus and how can

2:03

we protect ourselves and our loved

2:05

ones. To

2:08

understand more about COVID nineteen, I

2:11

called up someone who's working on the front

2:13

lines of this outbreak. Hi Maria,

2:16

Hi, how are you to be there?

2:18

So nice to hear your voice, you

2:20

too. Dr Maria van Kirkhove

2:23

is ahead of the Outbreak Investigation Task

2:25

Force for the World Health Organization.

2:27

She lives in Switzerland, but she traveled

2:30

to China just a few weeks ago to

2:32

study the virus. How would

2:34

you assess the current situation with

2:36

an understanding that it seems to change

2:39

almost by the hour. Yes,

2:42

so this is an evolving

2:44

situation, you know. So this is this is

2:46

an outbreak that began in December UM

2:49

with a cluster of patients with pneumonia

2:52

UM in Wuhan, China, and

2:54

then it has spread to other parts of China.

2:56

UM over the course of the month. In January,

2:59

there were case says that were being detected

3:01

in other parts of the world, mainly in Asia

3:03

to begin with, but also in other countries.

3:06

And this started with a travel link. UM.

3:08

And this is we we we found cases

3:11

that were identified in a number of countries,

3:14

and the outbreak has grown since then. UM.

3:17

What is interesting is that this is a new

3:19

virus. UM. Very early

3:21

on, the first cases were alerted

3:24

to US in late December early January,

3:26

but within a week, within one week,

3:29

the Chinese authorities were able to identify

3:31

that this was a new pathogen. This

3:33

was a novel coronavirus. That's where that

3:35

word comes from. UM. And

3:38

that and that's very important. So they

3:40

were able to identify that within a week using

3:42

full genome sequencing, was looking

3:44

at

3:44

the parts

3:47

of the virus itself UM, and

3:49

in finding that new virus, they were able

3:52

to share that with the world and say, this is a novel

3:54

pathogen. Here's the sequence,

3:56

which they made publicly available, and

3:58

that allowed countries all over the

4:00

world to develop PCR tests

4:03

for laboratory detection tests

4:05

so that they could start looking for that virus.

4:07

What exactly is a pathogen? Ah,

4:11

so the pathogen that we we normally call

4:13

these pathogenes either viruses or bacteria.

4:17

This new pathogen happens to be

4:19

a virus. I lead a group on emerging

4:22

diseases and zoonoses, and

4:25

most of the new viruses that we find come from

4:27

animals and they they

4:29

spill over from an animal to human, and we were

4:31

constantly on the lookout for new

4:33

pathogens, new viruses that

4:35

are infecting humans. Let's

4:37

talk about this one. What animal

4:40

was responsible for the coronavirus?

4:43

As of today, we don't know, UM,

4:46

but there's a lot of investigations right

4:48

now that are looking for what

4:50

was the animal source of this outbreak?

4:53

UM. This is a coronavirus, and we know

4:56

that coronaviruses have a link back

4:58

to bats um. Most viruses,

5:00

most viruses come from baths, but coronaviruses

5:03

come from baths initially. But what we

5:05

think happened here is that there was another

5:07

animal, or what we call an intermediary

5:10

host, that animal was infected,

5:12

and that animal was responsible for infecting

5:14

humans. There's a lot of investigations

5:16

underway in animal markets because

5:19

some of the initial cases in December

5:22

UM had reported a link to

5:24

one particular market, and

5:27

so that gave us a clue that there could be an

5:29

animal force. Tell us about

5:31

how contagious this is compared to

5:33

other pathogens you've just

5:36

you've studied. So

5:38

this is this This virus causes

5:40

a respiratory disease, and so people

5:42

who get sick have respiratory symptoms.

5:45

And the way that it's transmitted between people

5:47

is through droplets um, which means

5:49

if you cough or if you sneeze on

5:52

somebody, you are releasing

5:54

some of these droplets from your mouth, these little

5:56

droplets of fluid, and those droplets

5:58

can go into the eye, his nose, and mouth of

6:01

someone else if they're in close

6:03

distance to you. Not in the air, but in

6:05

they're actually in there within three feet of

6:07

you or so UM and so

6:09

if you're common contact with an infected

6:12

person UM, you could potentially

6:14

be infected by them. And what we know

6:16

about this virus is that for every

6:18

person who's infected, on

6:21

average, they infect two to

6:23

two and a half more people, and

6:26

that means that you have the possibility for this outpret

6:29

to take off. What's important to know

6:31

here is that um it's a new

6:33

virus, which means everyone is susceptible

6:36

UM and so what we're trying to do with all

6:38

of the information that we put out is to

6:40

try to tell individuals what they

6:42

can do to protect themselves

6:44

from being infected. So everyone

6:47

is susceptible because nobody has built

6:49

up the immunities to prevent

6:52

them from getting this virus. Having said

6:54

that, um it doesn't

6:56

seem as dangerous for young children

6:59

as far as everything I've read,

7:01

um and it's much more dangerous

7:04

for either older people or those

7:06

who have compromised immune

7:08

systems. Is that accurate? Yes,

7:11

that's right. What we know from initial

7:14

data is yes, indeed, young children

7:16

seem to not be infected as much

7:19

UM or develop severe disease.

7:21

So most of the children that we are learning

7:23

about that are infected UM have

7:25

a mild disease. We do know

7:27

that people of older ages over

7:30

sixty seventy eight years old UH,

7:32

and people who have underlying conditions

7:35

like cardiovascular disease, diabetes,

7:38

chronic respiratory diseases have

7:40

a higher risk of severe

7:42

disease and death. You

7:44

mentioned how it can be transferred

7:47

from human to human. A lot

7:49

of people are also concerned, Marie about

7:51

how long it stays on surfaces. UM,

7:54

what are you learning about that? So

7:58

we are learning that this virus can

8:00

stay on surfaces. So one of the ways that it gets

8:03

on surfaces is if you cough or if you sneeze,

8:05

These droplets come out of your mouth and they move

8:08

some distance from you and then they settle down

8:10

on surfaces UM, you know, like a

8:12

tabletop, UM or a door knob

8:14

for example. But they can be killed

8:17

by disinfectants. So it's very

8:19

important that surfaces are clean regularly

8:21

with the chlorine bleach for example, UM,

8:24

and then you can remove the virus from those surfaces.

8:27

And what are you learning about the lifespan? Because

8:29

I've heard everything from a few hours

8:31

to several weeks in

8:33

general, it's a few hours. I mean, well,

8:36

it could be a few hours. I should qualify

8:38

what that means. It doesn't mean one or two hours. It

8:40

could be up to a day or two. That's

8:42

still hours. But that sounds like a really long

8:44

time, doesn't it. I think,

8:46

Katie, what's important is for people to

8:49

know that they have some control over

8:51

this. You know that they can um

8:54

protect themselves, they can protect

8:56

their families in a simple way. Is

8:58

is regularly disinfecting your word space.

9:00

You know, if you look at your keyboard and you look at your

9:02

phone surface, making sure that that's clean, making

9:05

sure your handlebars are are cleaned

9:07

a few times per day, making

9:09

sure you wash your hands. I mean,

9:11

I know what people must be so tired of us

9:13

saying this, but washing your hands with soap and

9:15

water is a lifesaver, not

9:18

just for COVID nineteen but for many things.

9:21

And if you can't wash your hands, making sure you use

9:23

an alcohol rub well. You know you mentioned

9:25

and I noticed that things that are

9:27

are cleansers are Purel. Sorry

9:30

to use a brand name, but they're

9:32

antibacterial. And if this is

9:34

a virus, how does Purel protect

9:36

you from from it? If it's in fact antibacterial.

9:41

Well there are with the alcohol that's

9:43

in these alcohol rubs, Um,

9:45

you are removing that virus from

9:48

from your hands. I mean, the best thing for you to do

9:50

is wash your hands with soap and water and make

9:52

sure you follow the steps

9:54

and you get all of the surfaces of your hands and

9:56

you can remove those viruses from your hands.

9:59

But the alcohol rubbed alcohol

10:01

has to be six or

10:03

above alcohol and that will remove

10:06

that virus from the from your hands.

10:08

You were very kind to talk to me after

10:10

I realized I had a sixty

10:13

to ninety second conversation with someone

10:15

who was later diagnosed with coronavirus

10:18

and was probably about

10:21

three feet away, didn't touch and

10:23

basically just had a casual

10:25

conversation. Can you please

10:28

direct some of what

10:30

you would say to people who are

10:33

panicked that I actually,

10:35

you know, was talking to somebody

10:38

who was later diagnosed with coronavirus

10:40

who at the time was it was asymptomatic.

10:45

Yeah. So, so, first of all, it's it's

10:47

important to acknowledge that people are scared.

10:50

You know, there's a lot of information that's

10:52

out there, UM, some of it is

10:54

accurate, much of it is

10:56

inaccurate, UM, And people are

10:59

scared. It's a new dis ease, it's a new virus

11:01

UM, it's spreading around

11:03

the world, and people people can be quite

11:06

fearful of that. What's important for us

11:08

to understand is, you know, why are people scared?

11:10

What is it that makes them scared? To try to address

11:12

some of those UM. The

11:14

thing that you you've mentioned is you

11:17

you've indicated the type of exposure

11:19

that you may have had or you did have with

11:21

this individual. Knowing what the

11:23

risk is UM is

11:26

really important. So you've indicated

11:28

you know, the person was asymptomatic,

11:30

you were more than three feet away. It was a very

11:33

it was a very short encounter. You

11:35

know. Putting all that into context, what's

11:38

important for everyone to do is to assess

11:40

their own risks. You know, look at

11:42

what their exposure was, UM,

11:45

what their potential exposure was, because most of the

11:47

times it's even potential exposure is not actually

11:49

real exposure to the virus. And

11:51

then there's certain things you need to take into consideration.

11:54

What is your age, what are your underlying conditions?

11:57

UM? And then what do I do? So

12:00

if you are concerned, what should I do?

12:03

UM? And I think it's important that people know

12:05

that they can contact their local

12:07

health authorities UM

12:09

Departments of Health. UM. You know within

12:12

the US you have the U s C, d C. There

12:14

are hotlines that you can call. You can call

12:16

your own GP and ask the

12:18

questions that here's here's my concern,

12:20

here's my potential risk. What should I do?

12:23

We need people to know what they can do.

12:26

And what is different about this virus compared

12:28

to flu is that containment is not possible

12:31

with influenza, but containment

12:33

is possible with this coronavirus.

12:36

And the reason we can say that is because we've

12:38

seen such incredible efforts

12:40

by a number of countries, including

12:42

China UM that have really showed

12:45

us that transmission can be reduced,

12:48

case numbers can go down, and in

12:50

many parts of China they have their

12:52

zero reporting cases. So what are

12:55

they doing right? They have their entire

12:57

population mobilized

12:59

to against this. Every single

13:01

person in the population knows what they can do

13:04

in terms of these three things I mentioned, handwashing,

13:06

respiratory etiquette, social distancing.

13:09

UM. They're Chinese authorities

13:11

and other countries. Is not just China that has shown

13:13

us. Singapore is another good example. UM.

13:16

They've shown that if you identify all of your cases

13:18

and all of your contacts UM,

13:20

and that they're isolated so that that you remove

13:23

them from transmitting to other people, UM

13:26

care for them, making sure they get appropriate

13:28

clinical care, making sure

13:30

that they're communicated with and so that they

13:32

know what their risk is, and and and

13:34

by keeping them either in quarantine or isolation,

13:37

that they're they're performing a public health good.

13:39

There's been a lot of suspension of public

13:42

gatherings UM, and there's

13:44

been some movement restrictions in several temporary

13:46

movement restrictions in many cities across

13:48

China, and so all of those

13:50

that combination of of UM

13:54

efforts has has driven down

13:56

transmission UM. In some

13:58

situations has been quite dream and we've

14:00

seen that in Wuhan where we've seen a total

14:02

lockdown of some cities, and you're

14:05

hearing about some of this happening in Italy as

14:07

well. But that restriction of movements

14:09

of individuals prevents the spread UM

14:12

of the viruses. So what we're

14:14

doing for all countries, Katie, is we're talking

14:16

to all of governments UM

14:19

and saying the more aggressive action

14:21

you have early on, the better

14:23

chances you have to stop the outbreaks

14:26

of starting UM. And we have

14:28

evidence that this works in several countries and we

14:30

want to see that happen in the rest of the world.

14:33

So you mentioned UH self

14:35

quarantine or quarantining populations.

14:39

When should self quarantine or

14:41

any kind of quarantine be put into

14:43

effect? Who makes recommendations

14:46

on this? But it's up to national governments

14:48

to implements, and different governments

14:50

have implemented different measures in this

14:53

respect, so it's important to follow the national

14:55

guidance of what each country recommends.

14:58

UM. What you did in a perfect

15:00

example of this is that you had an exposure

15:03

and you went home and you self isolated

15:05

or you self quarantine. You went home and

15:07

that was a good measure before you and then you made

15:10

those phone calls to say, okay, what is my

15:12

risk UM? What we recommend

15:14

It depends on the type of exposure you have. If you're

15:16

a contact of a known case

15:19

UM, then we recommend a

15:21

quarantining of that individual so that there's

15:23

no chance of them passing it on to another

15:25

individual. They're monitored for fourteen

15:28

days, which is the incubation period, which is

15:30

the time from UM infection

15:33

to the development of symptoms UM,

15:35

so that for over those fourteen days, people

15:37

are monitored and they're checked for symptoms

15:39

to make sure if they have any fever or if

15:41

they have any respiratory symptoms, and

15:44

then tested. If we do that,

15:46

if we actually find all of the cases, find

15:48

all of the context, and we we can

15:51

by doing that, we can actually stop transmission

15:53

from from happening. We can stop human to human

15:55

transmission from happening. So, not to make

15:57

it all about me, but I did have contact

16:00

with a known case, was it Maria

16:02

because it was before the

16:04

diagnosis was confirmed,

16:07

or because I had very limited exposure

16:10

that I would not have to be quarantined

16:13

because everyone said that wasn't necessary.

16:17

So it's it's both. I mean, it's like,

16:19

like you explain, it's the nature of the

16:21

exposure that you would have with someone, and if

16:23

they had symptoms themselves, um,

16:25

what type of contact you had with them, if

16:27

you had physical contact with them.

16:30

Um. You know, one of the things we most worry about our

16:32

health care workers. You know, health care workers

16:34

who are our frontline workers. They have a different

16:36

type of contact with patients right there, touching

16:39

them, They're very close to them, they're

16:41

spending a longer period of time with them,

16:43

etcetera. That's

16:45

right, that's right, And so it's important that you assess

16:48

the risk based on that level of

16:50

exposure that you had. I

16:52

know that a person can be infected,

16:55

but asymptomatic can the can

16:57

the virus spread when someone is

17:00

asymptomatic before a diagnosis

17:02

has taken place? And how difficult

17:04

has that been that the incubation period

17:06

is so long. So

17:09

this is a very good question, and this is a very

17:11

important one. UM. We

17:13

are working with all of our member states

17:15

to better understand three things.

17:18

One, when cases

17:20

are reported, UM, are

17:22

any of them reported as being asymptomatic

17:25

And what I mean by asymptomatic is having no

17:28

symptoms at all UM. And

17:30

what we're finding in some countries a

17:32

small number of individuals are being reported

17:34

as asymptomatic UM.

17:36

Most of those people are contexts of

17:38

known cases UM, and so

17:41

the good the good news there is

17:43

that they've they've already been identified. Many

17:46

of them have either self isolated at home

17:48

or are in quarantine, and so they're already

17:51

UM restricting their their their

17:53

contact with other people. Many

17:55

of those asymptomatic people do go on

17:57

to develop symptoms. So having

18:00

one that's truly asymptomatic UM.

18:03

Among the reported cases that we know about

18:05

is rare. UM. What we

18:07

know from virus shedding

18:09

studies, and these are studies of looking

18:11

at people where you test them regularly,

18:14

you take a sample from their nasal

18:16

swab or their throats. UM.

18:19

We're looking at those individuals

18:21

before they develop symptoms, if there's any

18:23

virus there, and then after they develop

18:25

symptoms. And what we know is

18:27

from some people, UM, they can

18:30

shed virus, which means they can they

18:33

are shedding virus before they develop symptoms.

18:35

UM. So there is a theoretical risk. There's

18:37

a possibility that someone who is asymptomatic

18:40

and transmit, but right now we don't

18:42

believe that that's a major driver of transmission

18:45

because we do not have many documented

18:47

instances where someone who is

18:50

asymptomatic transmitted to other people. Do

18:52

you think that this will diminish as the

18:55

weather gets warmer, Um,

18:58

that's a good question. I get that question quite

19:00

a lot. UM. The true answer is we don't

19:02

know. UM. We have no reason

19:04

to believe that this virus will act differently

19:07

UM in different climates. You know, we're seeing

19:09

cases being popping up in different types

19:12

of climates. UM. We have a couple

19:14

of cases in Africa. We've seen cases in Singapore.

19:17

We've seen some cases in Brazil, UM,

19:19

and so we want everyone to be ready and to

19:21

be aggressive and to assume that it will behave

19:23

the same way. The difference with

19:25

with with not the virus, but there

19:27

are differences in the way people behave When

19:30

the weather is nicer, they spend more time

19:32

outdoors as opposed to being indoors.

19:34

So we will have to see how this virus behaves

19:37

once the northern hemisphere winter

19:39

ends. But remember the southern hemisphere

19:41

winter will begin. So UM,

19:43

we want to make sure everyone is acting as aggressively

19:46

as possible to contain this virus

19:48

and to stop transmission. And I know

19:50

you have to go, you have such important work to do,

19:52

Maria. But could this surpass the flu

19:55

in terms of the mortality rate Because everyone

19:57

keeps comparing the number of deaths

19:59

due to of flu versus this UM

20:02

is it just still early early stages.

20:06

So mortality of of COVID nineteen

20:09

is higher than flu UM.

20:11

From all of the information that we have from across

20:13

the country's um more people,

20:16

the mortality rate is higher than

20:18

flu UM. What is really important

20:20

that from all the cases that we know UM

20:24

to date, eighty percent of them

20:26

have experienced what is more of a mild

20:28

moderate disease which is not require hospitalization,

20:31

but about individuals will

20:33

develop severe disease or critical disease

20:36

which will require some respiratory support

20:39

UM and hospitalization, perhaps ventilation,

20:42

UM, and then a small proportion will have

20:44

died so far, UM.

20:47

What we need people to understand is that

20:49

this is a serious disease. UM,

20:51

that it can cause severe disease

20:53

and it can kill UM. And

20:56

so we hear a lot I hear a lot of Oh, it's

20:58

maybe just the flu, or it's just the add flu.

21:00

It's not that we need everybody to understand

21:02

that maybe even their own individual risk.

21:05

Maybe you are young, maybe you are healthier,

21:07

in your family is healthy, and that's wonderful. But

21:09

if you prevent prevent yourself from getting

21:11

infected, you also prevent yourself

21:14

from transmitting into somebody else who may

21:16

be part of a vulnerable population, somebody

21:18

who may be older, somebody who may have

21:20

an underlying condition. And so that's really

21:23

important. Again, we all have a role to play

21:25

here. If we can minimize our own

21:27

risk of infection, then we can minimize

21:29

that spread to vulnerable populations,

21:32

and those individuals have a higher chance

21:34

of death. How do you make

21:36

people cautious but not so

21:39

paralyzed with fear? And

21:41

I know you want people to take it seriously,

21:43

but you don't want mass panic

21:46

and hysteria either. Absolutely

21:49

not, we don't. We just want people to be

21:51

ready. UM. We want people to be

21:53

safe. We want people to be smart.

21:56

We want people to inform themselves with

21:58

the latest information. This situation

22:01

is moving very rapidly. It's evolving

22:03

quickly. Every day we're learning something new.

22:05

Keep up with us, be patient with us,

22:08

um as we learn information and we share

22:10

that with you. And and be kind

22:12

to one another, help each other out. Um.

22:15

You know, there's a lot of stigma, and there's a lot

22:17

of negative things that are happening.

22:20

But on the other side, we can see the

22:22

best in people. You can help them out. UM.

22:25

If you have neighbors that can't get out themselves,

22:27

help them with the groceries, you know, offer

22:29

offer some social support. Um.

22:32

Just be kind to one another. Um. Those

22:34

are the things we need people to do. Be ready, be

22:37

safe, be smart, and be kind. Well

22:39

those are words to live by. Corona

22:42

or no corona, right, Dr Maria.

22:45

Really, I've loved being able

22:47

to talk to you. Thank you so much. That

22:51

was Dr Maria van Kirkov, infectious

22:54

disease epidemiologist with the

22:56

World Health Organization coming

22:59

up. One Chinese American man tells

23:01

us what it was like to be smack

23:04

in the middle of the epidemic. You

23:14

Len Yin lives in Minnesota with his wife

23:16

Anne, and their two daughters. In

23:19

January of this year, he was scheduled

23:21

to travel to Wuhan province in China,

23:24

where he was born, for New Year's celebrations

23:26

with his family and friends. But as

23:29

he was getting ready, rumors began to

23:31

emerge that there was a mysterious

23:33

illness in the region. You Lynn

23:35

and his family tried to find out more

23:38

and I looked

23:40

online. That's really not a lot

23:42

of information and my

23:46

family in Wohan did not mentioned

23:49

at all about that. But I

23:51

was the nervous, so actually went

23:53

to check with uh

23:56

knem Nick. I usually go to

23:58

you just asked them you've there

24:00

any bacination for

24:02

me? And then my wife actually check

24:04

to your just acts that

24:06

there's something called travel klinic, if

24:09

there's anything that I should be worried

24:11

or is there anything we can do to

24:14

be safe, And at that

24:16

time, there's really nothing so I said,

24:18

okay, I just need to be careful. So

24:20

you land, said goodbye to his family in Minneapolis,

24:23

and boarded a plane for Wuhan. He

24:25

landed on January.

24:28

I remember I was at

24:30

the luggage pickup. I've

24:34

felt nervous definitely

24:36

at that time because everybody around

24:38

me were wearing masks at that

24:41

time, and actually I

24:44

it was the first time I saw in twenty

24:46

and nine masks. I kind

24:48

of feel, oh, that's a strange mask. I remember

24:51

I saw it in myself. So

24:53

you has the needle evolved

24:56

involve seeing in

24:58

the front, so actually like

25:01

a breath, like a breathing thing. That's

25:03

right, that's my first time I saw it. I said,

25:06

well, that's really serious, serious

25:08

equipment for people to wear. Maybe

25:11

the pneumonia is more serious

25:13

than I thought. By January,

25:16

the Chinese government started to limit travel

25:18

around Wuhan. No one was allowed

25:21

to leave, and public transit was

25:23

also shut down. For

25:25

the first few days. I actually went out

25:27

with my family to go to different restaurants

25:31

and so that that that was the third

25:33

day. I remember I because

25:36

I say, having jet legs.

25:38

I woke up at two o'clock in the morning

25:41

and I got a message from a

25:43

friend in the United States. Actually

25:46

he he sent me attack saying, oh

25:48

I heard wah is lockdown? Is

25:51

that true? So

25:53

I said what? I was thinking, what

25:55

what? What do you mean lockdown? And

25:58

then I looking have

26:00

your search on the social media

26:03

to verify the news, and then

26:05

I found out there is a notice somewhere

26:08

business said or the traffic coming

26:11

out of Wahan locked down

26:14

did not say anything coming

26:16

in, so you can stay, are coming in, but

26:19

you cannot leave. Actually, I remember

26:22

it was not very clear at that time.

26:24

I was thinking, wow, so that there's

26:27

no trend going out, that there's no um,

26:30

there's no flights. Can I still

26:32

go by car? Actually? I was

26:34

thinking, should I wake up my

26:37

brother, you know, ask him to drive

26:39

me to Shanahai somewhere so I can go home.

26:41

Just nearly confused. At that time,

26:44

it was not very clear, so it

26:46

didn't seem like the government was communicating

26:49

what was going on very well, and you were getting

26:51

most of your information from social

26:53

media. You didn't know if you could leave

26:56

or if people could come in. You were

26:58

kind of in limpo. It's I was like that

27:01

that is correct. Just a lot of confusion.

27:04

Were you worried at that point, how

27:07

you were gonna get the heck out of

27:09

Dodge and back to your family in Minnesota.

27:12

Yeah, I was worried, but

27:14

at that time I was hopeful.

27:16

I was thinking, whi is the city

27:19

of eleven million people. In

27:21

my mind, there's no way that

27:24

the lockdown can last more than say

27:26

one or two weeks. So

27:29

I was actually very hopeful. My

27:31

trip was three weeks. I was okay,

27:33

just to see how

27:36

how you go. It may be the

27:38

lockdown may be lifted in a couple of weeks.

27:40

That that was my sinking

27:42

at that time. Actually on January,

27:45

when you looked out the window, what did

27:47

it look like outside? Yeah,

27:49

it was just quiet, very

27:51

quiet, which is very unusual

27:53

for the place where I stay

27:56

and my mom my Mom's

27:59

Countle. It's very is close to your

28:01

street. That street actually is one

28:03

of the most congestive street

28:06

in when usually people tried

28:08

to avoid it, so it's always always

28:10

a lot of traffic. But yeah,

28:13

that day, or even cover this before,

28:15

it's just not many cars is empty.

28:18

It's very strange. I

28:21

was almost felt like it's a sci

28:23

fi film, you know. The Actually

28:26

I remember that there's a film title code

28:28

on the day when the earth is still still

28:30

I was thinking about that. By

28:33

January, just five days

28:35

after you land landed in Wuhan, the

28:37

US government mandated evacuations

28:40

of US personnel and citizens

28:42

from the region. At that time, I

28:44

was surprised. Actually when the

28:46

first evacuation happened,

28:50

Actually that's the time I started to

28:52

get really really over it. I

28:54

said, I was thinking, what what I

28:57

did not know? Because the beginning

28:59

as a gonna just wait out for the

29:02

lockdown to lift, to be lifted.

29:04

When when United States evacuated

29:07

or the

29:10

or the councilor employees

29:12

and the staff and the family member,

29:15

I got really verried. One

29:17

heard the news um

29:20

it was it was said there's the only very

29:23

limited seas available

29:25

for private citizens. So I

29:28

tried to contact them, but at that time

29:31

was already full the flight

29:33

so had to wait, and there

29:36

was not really worth about a

29:39

new evacuation plan at all. So

29:41

I asked my wife to start

29:44

contacting people here

29:46

in the United States. So my wife

29:49

contacted UM, the state

29:52

the congressional representatives

29:54

from Minnesota, and they were

29:56

very helpful. They talked to your

29:58

state department and they found out and

30:01

there are there

30:04

were a new evacuation

30:08

flights planned, but there's

30:10

not nothing in the news. But that's

30:12

how I heard about it. Then I got

30:15

ragious on the State Department

30:18

website and there's

30:20

there's there's some confusion confusion

30:22

there to you. So I registered in their website.

30:25

I send an email to one

30:27

email address, and then the representatives

30:29

they helped to talk communicated

30:32

with the State Department too. So

30:35

that's how I got on the list to be evacuated.

30:39

See sometimes the government works,

30:41

right, I mean, thank goodness.

30:43

And did you feel guilty leaving

30:46

your family in China? I understand

30:48

your parents lived, their cousins lived there.

30:51

Did you feel bad, uh, saying

30:53

goodbye to them? That you have felt

30:55

really bad? When how did you leave?

30:58

Um? Yeah,

31:01

I it was pretty tough, especially

31:03

my parents are older and

31:07

um but there's a really

31:10

not much I could do there to even

31:12

help them do worry about

31:14

my job in the United States to myself

31:17

because it might have a family here to

31:18

rely on me. So

31:21

but it was very difficulty decision. Actually,

31:25

I'm sure you were torn. Are your

31:27

parents doing okay? They

31:30

are doing fine in terms

31:32

of coronavirus, they're

31:34

okay. But my dad is older,

31:37

so she actually she he felt

31:39

twice already since

31:41

I left, and

31:45

he just couldn't get the

31:48

care he needed for now.

31:50

So I'm very nervous about that.

31:53

Still. Oh

31:55

he couldn't get Is that because all the doctors

31:57

and the medical personnel were focused

32:00

STU people who were getting the

32:02

coronavirus so other

32:04

things. Uh, we're not

32:06

being prioritized that that is

32:08

correct, and also frankly,

32:10

we don't want to go to hospital

32:13

at this time too. Right. I'm

32:15

sure that was a concern, particularly

32:18

for older people. And if he has any

32:20

underlying health issues, well,

32:22

good luck with him. I hope he's doing Okay.

32:25

Let me ask about you. Uh, on

32:28

the final leg of your journey,

32:30

you're flying home on this massive, unmarked

32:33

cargo plane. Were

32:35

people on the plane sick? Were you nervous

32:37

about being in such close proximity

32:40

to people who were heading out of

32:42

the country that they might be contagious?

32:45

Yes, we're very nervous, and

32:48

that that's the time. Actually, I

32:50

will mask the whole time, and

32:53

the people are really not talking to

32:55

each other. There's not much socializing at all.

32:58

Pretty much everybody have to themselves.

33:03

On February five, you land landed

33:05

in San Diego with the rest of the evacuees

33:08

contention upon getting the flight out of China

33:10

was a fourteen day quarantine on

33:12

a US military base where

33:15

you land tried to settle into a new

33:17

strange reality. This

33:19

was the the largest

33:22

un quarantined since fifties.

33:25

So I don't think anybody

33:28

was actually prepared. So

33:31

um, even I

33:33

remember at the beginning the

33:36

food was not enough, right,

33:39

like really, yeah, we didn't have enough

33:41

food to eat. That was the biggest complaint.

33:44

And how we do

33:46

laundry, that was a big question.

33:50

We felt like a kind of like a refugees

33:53

in a way because nobody really

33:55

packed a lot of stuff. So

33:58

first of all, god, there's oh, how do we

34:01

do laundry? So they were not prepared

34:04

for that. It's

34:06

so little things like that and Ilso

34:10

the protocol who

34:12

should be who should be tested?

34:15

How you know how

34:17

much restriction everybody should be

34:19

getting wasn't wasn't.

34:23

What was clear was everyone

34:25

tested. No, only

34:28

people with a fever got

34:32

tested. I believe the whole

34:34

time we have uh

34:38

nine people got tested I think, and

34:42

you never exhibited any symptoms. You

34:45

never got sick. I had

34:47

need to be a cough. Um,

34:50

So I actually went to the medical tent two.

34:54

I told him I have need to be a cough. They

34:56

checked me and then they say they

34:58

told me nothing to wor Bob. But

35:02

they did come back to me asked

35:04

me to stay home when we had

35:07

one confirmed the case. So

35:09

they asked me to stay inside the room.

35:11

Oh, one confirmed case at

35:14

the military base before

35:16

that. So how were you able to interact

35:19

with the other people there? Did they bring

35:21

food to your room? Can you just give

35:23

us a little feel for your

35:25

day to day activities while you were at the base.

35:29

We can move quite freely on

35:31

the CDC. They suggested not

35:33

to wear masks. They were saying,

35:35

anybody who wants to wear a mask, they can,

35:37

but they do not recommend that. And

35:41

we we we were told just keep a social

35:43

distance, which is six ft away from

35:45

each other. So

35:48

the food were delivered in

35:50

a like in a hole in

35:52

a big lounge area. We

35:55

we would pick up the food and at

35:58

beginning I would pick up the food and go back

36:00

to my room to eat it. And

36:02

later I found out a few people that are

36:04

you're hanging out around the area,

36:07

so I would actually eat with them.

36:09

Just again keep social descent. That's

36:11

when we can chat Nibia with each

36:13

other. We talk um.

36:17

So every day we have a daily meeting at

36:19

the two o'clock just to

36:22

keep us updated and everything, the

36:24

current virus itself and also

36:27

if anybody got sick in

36:30

in our in

36:32

the current in site, and

36:35

we do two

36:37

times morning and

36:39

evening. We have to check our temperature. So

36:43

that's that's mandatory. And

36:46

I was said that we really you

36:49

know, we can do pretty much anything

36:51

we want, and we can. We can

36:53

go outside of the room and start

36:55

jogging in the yard. Um,

36:58

you know, there's a great science. So

37:00

I have a lot more movement than when

37:03

I was in China. What was it like getting

37:05

home to your wife and two kids. You must

37:07

have been so happy. I

37:11

was really Yes, I was really happy,

37:13

and it was very grateful. There

37:15

are so many scenes I took

37:18

for granted in life that very a lot

37:20

of small things like driving my daughter to your

37:22

school, even shoveling snow,

37:25

all those things just you know, it

37:28

seems so far away when I was quarantined.

37:31

So actually what I feel like, I finally

37:33

can do normal things again.

37:35

That was so great, And I

37:38

was really grateful for my wife. She

37:41

worked really hard to get me on

37:43

the flight, and she worked very hard

37:45

to just to you know, make

37:47

sure my daughter feels nothing

37:50

strange, you know, for

37:53

the last the whole months.

37:56

So really grateful for that. And just

37:59

you know another thing too, I can find it huck

38:01

someone that's not a

38:03

strange. There's no human touch

38:07

during the whole ordeal. So

38:10

when I come home and actually can't hug my

38:12

wife, kiss my daughter, that was fel great.

38:14

Are you back at work? Has life returned

38:17

to normal now? Well,

38:19

I'm back to work. I

38:22

wouldn't say back to normal

38:26

because I really did not expect.

38:30

And it became so serious

38:33

here now because I when I

38:35

one him once, I really

38:37

said, when I was in quarantine, after

38:40

quarantine, everything what

38:43

be normal? There's no

38:45

you know, nobody even talk about coronavirus

38:47

anymore. I you really

38:49

did not expect. Many

38:52

weeks after that we are

38:54

talking about, you know,

38:56

lockdown in Italy or

38:58

those very serious scene

39:01

Right now, there does seem to

39:03

be um a lot of panic,

39:05

I think all across the country. And

39:08

um, how is it different from

39:11

what you can tell the reaction here

39:13

in this country versus the reaction in

39:15

China. I think

39:17

once in common is there's

39:20

a mistrust

39:23

in government. I

39:25

think that's truly, that's

39:27

the same Chinese uh and

39:30

American here. I don't be id think they

39:32

believe um the even

39:34

the official news they see. I

39:37

think that's very the

39:39

same. The difference is

39:42

um Chinese people,

39:44

I really believe they

39:47

they will follow whatever the

39:49

government tells them to do.

39:52

The even the magic is very drastic,

39:54

like say do not go outside, you have to wear

39:56

a mask all the time. Even

39:59

they don't believe that, but they

40:01

followed that and they are hopeful that

40:04

what turned out the resulting out

40:07

to be good. In the United

40:09

States, I believe from what I

40:11

see on the Twitter or talking difference,

40:14

people already have a picture that how

40:17

coronavirus should be dealt with, how

40:19

how what was the responsible should

40:22

be like. So if the garment or

40:24

the media's does not respond

40:28

the way they wanted, they're just

40:30

not ready to accept that. Other

40:32

than realizing you shouldn't take for granted

40:34

certain things like a shower, hugging

40:36

your wife, or taking your daughter to school.

40:39

What have you learned from this whole experience?

40:42

What I learned is that the information,

40:44

trusting information is so important.

40:46

There are so much misinformation

40:50

flying flying around on Twitter

40:52

and even in the news. You

40:55

have to we have to be very, very careful

40:58

to check the source. And I thing

41:00

I learned is listened to the experts. I'm

41:03

not experting embarrassed, so I try to

41:05

find experts I can

41:08

trust, so I try

41:10

to listen to them.

41:12

Ellen, thank you so much for talking

41:14

with us about your experience. We

41:17

really really appreciate it. And stay

41:19

safe, stay healthy, and

41:22

and many many thanks. Thank

41:25

you for me. Thank you so much. When

41:33

we come back trying to find answers

41:35

to some of your burning questions about

41:38

the COVID nineteen outbreak. I

41:56

understand a lot of you out there are worried

41:58

about COVID Night Team, and I understand

42:01

why. It's a lot of information

42:03

to take in. We want to answer

42:05

some of the questions you sent to me via

42:07

social media. So the good news

42:10

is the doctor is in. Dr

42:14

Shaffner. Hey, it's

42:16

Katie Kuric. Thank you. Dr Schaffner.

42:19

Dr Bill Shaffner is the medical

42:21

director of the National Foundation for

42:23

Infectious Diseases and a professor

42:26

at Vanderbilt. Okay, let

42:28

me go ahead and go through these questions, Dr

42:30

Shaffner, because you've been so nice. K

42:33

Jersey Kids asked, when do you predict

42:35

or when do the authorities

42:37

predict the virus will peak in the US.

42:42

Wait a minute, you didn't tell me I had to have my crystal

42:44

ball here. Uh. We

42:46

hope, we hope

42:49

that since it's a respiratory virus,

42:52

and respiratory viruses like influenza,

42:55

as we all know, they abate come

42:58

March and April into a maybe

43:01

this coronavirus will have read

43:03

the textbook and does the same

43:06

thing. But we don't

43:08

think that will mean even if it does

43:10

that, that it will go away completely.

43:13

One of the things that could do is go

43:15

south of the equator because

43:17

as we start having summer, they

43:20

start having winter, and so

43:22

could it be that in Australia, New Zealand,

43:25

Southern Africa, and in South America

43:28

they're due for this coronavirus

43:31

and then could its cycle

43:33

back our next winter. Maybe

43:37

all the more reason to keep research

43:40

going on that vaccine, because if

43:42

it does persist or come back,

43:44

we'll need that vaccine down the road. We're

43:47

hearing, by the way, speaking of that, that the vaccine

43:49

is going to take a year, year two, a year

43:51

and a half to be developed. Is that what

43:53

you're hearing as well? Yep, yep,

43:56

yep, And let's all take

43:58

a deep breath about that. You you

44:00

want people to hurry up, but not rush.

44:04

Nobody wants to start delivering

44:07

an unsafe or an

44:09

ineffective vaccine to our

44:11

population. We want to be sure

44:14

we're doing it right. Let's give

44:16

them a little time. Science can't

44:18

be rushed. Jen Scoville asked,

44:20

should we be pausing personal travel?

44:25

Well, Jen, I would ask,

44:27

if I may ask a personal question,

44:29

are you older than sixty? Do you have

44:31

one of those underlying illnesses?

44:34

Because if you do, I would ask you to

44:36

think twice about how essential that

44:38

trip is right now, and

44:41

if it's not all that essential, postpone

44:43

it. And as Dr Tony Facci

44:46

has said from the n I h don't

44:48

even think about going on a cruise.

44:51

I know, really, squid six, these

44:53

are funny handles. Am I crazy

44:55

to want to continue going to work out classes?

45:00

I don't think you are. I

45:03

think at any age you can go to

45:05

a workout class that's not really

45:07

a close, intense environment

45:10

where you get face to face with people,

45:12

take some wipes along perhaps your

45:15

gym probably has them, and

45:17

wipe off the seats and your bar bells

45:20

and things like that before you use

45:22

them. And after you use them, because

45:24

that will make them more friendly to others. Uh,

45:27

gentle, good exercise, good

45:30

for the body. Alison wants

45:32

to know how could a person tell the difference between

45:34

corona symptoms and cold

45:37

symptoms. That's

45:40

pretty easy. I thought you was going to ask me

45:42

the harder question, how you how can you

45:45

distinguish it from flu? We'll

45:47

do that as a follow up. Yea

45:51

so cold, think of from the neck

45:53

up, sore throat, stuffy

45:55

knows, feeling kind of punk. Maybe

45:57

your eyes get a little bit red, maybe

46:00

a little bit of fever. Not so bad. Coronavirus

46:04

and flu, who are they're

46:06

indistinguishable, will get down

46:09

into your chest pretty quickly, cause

46:11

irritation of your bronchial tubes and

46:13

a cough, a kind of a dry

46:16

cough. And then both

46:18

of those viruses can make you

46:20

more sick by having you

46:22

feel really punk, losing your appetite.

46:25

Some people get abdominal pain and diarrhea.

46:28

And then, of course, as we move along

46:30

the more serious part of the spectrum

46:32

of illness, if that virus

46:35

gets out into your lungs, the coronavirus,

46:38

it can cause pneumonia, and if

46:40

that's bad enough, you'll have difficulty breathing.

46:43

By that time, you will have called your

46:45

healthcare provider or shown up in the emergency

46:48

room. When someone has a mild

46:50

case and doesn't need hospitalization.

46:53

What kind of medicines are most

46:56

effective for dealing with this? Is

46:58

it sort of common sense? Like syrup

47:00

and plenty of fluids,

47:03

chicken soup, that kind of thing, Adville

47:06

thailand All. I mean, what are you recommending

47:08

when people actually do test positively

47:10

for this? That's

47:13

perfect, You've just written the prescription. I

47:15

could be a doctor, why

47:19

not? So stay away from

47:21

folks, and if your home, keep

47:24

up your fluids. Chicken soup

47:26

is wonderful. Uh. Coffee

47:29

and alcoholic beverages don't count

47:32

because they tend to be diuretics.

47:34

They tend to draw you out, actually right, they they're

47:36

very dehydrating. Yes,

47:39

so they don't count. Uh. Plain

47:41

water works just fine and

47:44

sure for relief of

47:46

symptoms. Uh, an

47:48

aspirin or anything

47:51

like that, A thailand All will certainly

47:53

help. Should pregnant women

47:55

worry, that's one question we got

48:00

at the moment. I haven't

48:02

seen any data to suggest

48:05

that coronavirus infection in a

48:07

woman can affect her baby, but it

48:09

has not been well studied,

48:12

and I'm sure there are physicians

48:14

in China who have had experience with this who

48:16

are going to tell us of their experience.

48:19

So I'm going to put that one off on the side.

48:21

But in terms of worry, I

48:24

think you're like a normal person,

48:26

except you're a bit immuno suppressed.

48:29

Uh. That's a natural condition

48:31

in pregnancy, and so take

48:33

special care to avoid people

48:36

who are coughing and sneezing. Wash those hands.

48:38

And it's not a good time to travel

48:42

when if you do believe you have

48:44

coronavirus, either you've been diagnosed

48:46

or you just feel like you have a Hopefully

48:48

you you'll call your doctor if you feel like you

48:51

you have it. Um At what point

48:53

is it safe to go out in the world again. It's

48:57

safe to go out in the world again

49:00

when you're feeling better and your fever

49:02

is all gone. And

49:05

that's the general recommendation we make

49:07

for influenza, and it would apply to

49:09

the coronavirus also. Well,

49:12

I know you have other patients you need

49:14

to talk to. Dr Bill Shaffner. Thank

49:16

you so much for spending some time answering

49:18

these questions. What a pleasure,

49:21

Katie. Good to be with you and call

49:24

any time with more of those

49:27

very interesting questions, and I'll take another

49:29

one of your pop quizes. Okay, Dr

49:31

Shaffner, thank you so much. Sure,

49:34

bye, bye bye. That

49:36

was Dr Bill Shaffner of the National

49:38

Foundation for Infectious Diseases.

49:42

And before we go, I want to return

49:44

to Dr Maria van Kirkov for

49:47

some tips and words of advice. Pay

49:50

attention to what CDC is saying and

49:52

what government websites are saying. You

49:55

can always come to W H O, DOT, I N

49:57

T and see you know the information that we

49:59

have. But the basics, these fundamentals

50:02

of hand washing, of respiratory

50:05

etiquette. What we mean by that is making sure

50:07

you sneeze into your elbow or sneeze

50:09

into a tissue, UM, and put

50:11

it in a closed bin, and then wash your hands.

50:14

Practice social distancing, keep three feet

50:16

away from people, especially people who are are are

50:18

sick. Um. These things

50:20

are very simple to do and everyone

50:22

can do them, from your grandmother to your children,

50:25

UM. And these are things that we want everybody to

50:27

know and practice inner

50:30

daily life.

50:34

That's it for this episode of Next Question.

50:36

We really hope it's given you some important

50:39

information and put you at ease at

50:41

least a little bit as the story

50:43

of the outbreak continue to evolve.

50:46

You can find the most updated information

50:48

and recommendations at CDC

50:51

dot gov and the World Health Organization

50:54

at w h OH dot I

50:56

n T will also be updating

50:58

my newsletter Wake Up Call with the latest

51:01

articles and information, and by the

51:03

way, you can subscribe to that at

51:05

Katie Currek dot com. Stay

51:07

healthy out there, Everyone, wash your

51:09

hands for twenty seconds or just

51:12

sing Happy Birthday twice. Until

51:14

next time and my Next Question, I'm

51:16

Katie Couric. Thanks so much for listening.

51:22

Next Question with Katie Couric is a production

51:24

of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media.

51:26

The executive producers are Katie Currik, Courtney

51:29

Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising

51:31

producer is Lauren Hansen. Our

51:33

show producer is Bethan Macaluso.

51:36

The associate producers are Emily Pinto and

51:38

Derek Clements. Editing by

51:40

Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagan and Lowell

51:43

Berlante, Mixing by Dylan

51:45

Fagan. Our researcher is Gabriel

51:48

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51:50

on today's episode, go to Katie Currek

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