0:00

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kurrigan. This is

0:02

next question. Yes,

0:14

the new year is upon us and

0:16

we're winding down this podcast season,

0:19

which has been a really special one for me,

0:21

sharing the making of my memoir and

0:23

some of the most impactful moments for my

0:26

personal and professional life.

0:29

But we're not done yet. People. If

0:31

you didn't get a chance to make it to any

0:34

of the stops on my book tour, and

0:36

frankly even if you did, I

0:38

have something special, stand

0:40

vibe lights check, audience

0:43

is in. Okay, Katie, let's

0:45

get ready. In three two,

0:49

we're going there live. Thank

0:54

you. You guys are so

0:56

nice to be here, to pay good

0:59

money to come see me. Thank

1:02

you so so much. Hi. Today,

1:04

I'm sharing some moments from my nine city

1:07

Whirlwind tour after going

1:09

there, came out and laid October. I

1:11

went there to talk about my book

1:14

in person. Here's a little taste.

1:17

Let's rewind, shall we, to

1:19

a time long ago and far

1:21

away. My

1:24

big break came at w r C at

1:26

local station in d C, located

1:29

right upstairs from the Washington Bureau

1:31

of I

1:33

was proud as a peacock to be part

1:36

of the NBC family. I had woken

1:38

up that morning with a healthy husband, our

1:40

lives stretching out before us. I

1:43

went to sleep with a husband who had stage

1:45

four calling cancer and a colostomy

1:48

back. As Peter Parker

1:50

in Spider Man reminds us, with

1:52

great power comes great responsibility,

1:55

and Matt unfortunately seriously

1:58

abused his. After my first broadcast

2:01

on the CBS Evening News, it was open

2:03

season on me, my makeup, my

2:05

hair, the fact that I wore a white

2:08

jacket after Labor Day. What

2:11

has been a raging success though,

2:13

is my merger with Muelner. Yeah.

2:18

So for all of you who may

2:20

not believe in second chances, I'm

2:22

here to tell you it is possible. But

2:25

I also got to share the stage with some of my

2:28

very favorite people like Eina

2:30

Garten and Jenn Garner, Chance

2:32

the Rapper, and Kim and Brad

2:35

Paisley. You know what he's He's

2:37

going there, Katie, he is now.

2:41

In addition to those celebrity interviews and

2:43

more on those in some bonus episodes to

2:45

come, yeha, I also about

2:47

to sit down with people you may not

2:49

know but should. Many of them

2:52

who I met along the way. They

2:54

were at the center of some of the biggest stories

2:56

of my career, ordinary

2:58

people who responded to extraordinary,

3:00

often traumatic events in

3:03

inspiring and life changing

3:05

ways. On this episode

3:07

of Next Question, I'm sharing the best

3:09

moments from those conversations.

3:13

We'll begin where the tour did in

3:15

Boston. I want to give

3:17

you all a warning. This is our first night of

3:19

doing this, so

3:22

so so seriously,

3:24

please please be gentle because

3:28

who knows what's going to happen. But I'm so happy

3:30

you're hearing. My guest was Celesque Corkrant.

3:33

Celeste was watching her sister Carmen

3:35

run the Boston Marathon on April

3:38

two and

3:40

was at the proverbial wrong place at

3:43

the wrong time. When one of those bombs

3:45

exploded. Celesque

3:48

would lose both her legs. How

3:50

do you put your life together? How

3:53

do you not let anger win? How

3:55

do you find purpose through the pain? How

3:57

do you go on? Well,

4:00

I'll tell you because she is, and

4:03

she's here tonight, so please welcome Celesque,

4:05

poor friend and her sister, Carmen

4:07

Icabo. Celesque

4:10

came on my talk show back in just

4:13

a few months after the bombing. Back

4:16

then, she walked carefully on

4:18

ill fitting prosthetics, but

4:20

in Boston this past October. She

4:23

walked across the stage confidently

4:25

and securely, accompanied

4:28

by her sister Carmen. Here's

4:30

a portion of our conversation. You've

4:33

come such a long way, I think

4:35

since that day when you were on my show.

4:37

And I think we should also mention

4:40

that their daughter, Sydney,

4:42

who was seventeen at the time, suffered

4:45

critical injuries that day as

4:47

well, had to go through numerous

4:50

surgeries. And I can't imagine

4:52

as a mom, you are dealing

4:54

with your own injuries, and

4:57

yet Sydney had her injuries too,

4:59

and you all ended up being sharing a

5:01

hospital brand didn't. Yeah, that was just

5:04

luck that we ended up at the same hospital

5:07

and everything. And then they put us when they realized that we

5:09

were mother and daughter, they put us in the

5:11

same room. But yeah, to be there

5:13

my mother everybody, like I've

5:16

always been like that, and

5:18

to not be able to to be

5:20

in a hospital bed, to have my legs

5:23

in these casts, and then and to

5:25

know that Sydney was so hurting,

5:27

you know, I would see her crying um

5:31

and he couldn't get up and go to her,

5:33

and I was I was always that's

5:35

my baby. Of course I'm going to be there. It

5:38

was. It was overwhelming because it was the two of

5:40

them, and celest really wanted to be her

5:42

mom and she really couldn't. Um.

5:45

I mean she could and she was. But

5:47

I think the hardest part about it it was

5:49

like, you know, we thought our

5:52

life everything was going to be so horrible because Cels

5:54

lost her legs. But Sydney

5:56

was so so sick, and so that

5:59

was what was so hard. Like her, her

6:01

injuries were much worse than selesces.

6:03

If you can even imagine that, you

6:06

had to obviously deal

6:09

with this sort of huge life

6:11

change. And I don't think

6:13

we should underestimate how

6:16

challenging it was, because not only

6:19

physically for you, uh,

6:21

Celeste, but also just mentally

6:24

and emotionally. It was really

6:27

really tough. There were days where

6:29

you just wouldn't get out of bed. Understood

6:31

days like that. Really, Yeah,

6:34

I had, I've been out of my legs.

6:36

I'm just kind of I started almost

6:38

all over again. I had surgery

6:40

from my nerve pain um

6:43

three years ago maybe it was it

6:45

was about three years ago over for COVID,

6:49

and that was

6:52

a long recovery and I was out of my legs

6:54

um for a long time. I was just in the wheel chair. So for

6:56

the last like I don't know,

6:58

three years more in my chair

7:01

than in my legs. But um,

7:03

but I felt like I needed that two

7:07

like ground myself or something. You know. Here I

7:09

am up on these stilts. And before

7:11

I lost my legs, I used to walk barefoot

7:13

all the time. I love to walk barefoot.

7:16

And I felt like there was some gonna sound goofy,

7:19

but I felt like there was some kind of connection

7:21

that was lost. You know, I

7:23

needed to be like down on the ground. You

7:26

I know, were introduced to other

7:30

people who were amputees who had

7:32

lost their legs, and it

7:35

was sort of helpful, but not that helpful

7:37

at first. Why was that? Um,

7:40

some marines came to see me, and

7:42

um, a lot of military people. So

7:44

it was a lot of men and

7:47

a lot of um single leg amputees

7:50

that I met with or that you know, came

7:52

to encourage me. And that was fantastic.

7:54

I needed that, but I

7:56

was sort of like missing,

7:59

I don't even know how to say it, like a female

8:01

connection really right, that's exactly how to say

8:03

it. And so and so

8:06

um and and luckily you

8:08

got connected with this incredible

8:11

woman in California who

8:13

have lost her her legs because

8:15

of frost bite when she was nineteen years

8:17

old, and you all

8:19

became best friends. And

8:22

I feel like that relationship

8:24

really turned things around, didn't it.

8:26

It really did. We I

8:29

met her in New York and she

8:31

was going to an event and

8:34

she said that we had had numerous

8:36

conversations on the phone, and then

8:39

she was like, I want to meet So she

8:41

was gonna go to the function

8:43

in New York, but she had my number,

8:46

let me tell you, because she was like, Celeste,

8:49

if I fly across the country and show up

8:51

there, you can't back out. And

8:53

I so would have. There was on

8:55

a good day, you know. I was just

8:57

like, New York, I'm not gonna be able to like

9:00

what you know. And I was just freaking out. And

9:02

then this one was like don't

9:04

you go? And

9:06

and so that I gave you, um,

9:09

you know, it gave

9:12

you back your fighting spirit in a way, didn't

9:14

it. It did? Because that's how Jamie

9:16

is. She's very um. She's

9:18

just a go get her and she's just

9:21

if I would cry, like say

9:24

I had to crawl to get

9:26

into the car or something like, you

9:28

know, get out of my wheelchair, get in

9:30

the back of the car, fold my wheelchair, put

9:32

it in the car. I would call her and just

9:34

be like, oh my god, this is you know what I

9:36

have to do. And she was like, yeah, but you can do it.

9:40

And it's so true. And

9:42

and now I went from

9:45

crying because I had to do something a

9:47

certain way to yeah, I've

9:49

got this, Okay, I got it. I

9:52

know that you have started to do

9:54

a lot of ad because he worked with an organization

9:56

called fifty Legs, which which

9:58

helps peep who who

10:01

need help getting post prosthesis

10:03

a prosthetic. I always have a hard time saying

10:05

that, yeah,

10:08

we help people get yeah, and

10:11

um that has that has that helped

10:13

you to by helping other people?

10:15

Absolutely? Um, she has

10:17

really been helped to so many people, Like there are

10:19

people in the hospital or whatever, and just

10:22

throw out all of our work with fifty Legs and

10:24

what has happened to thee last Like you know, we've always

10:26

said from the beginning, with bad comes good, and

10:30

I think that's the over you

10:32

know, the overwhelming theme in our life, as we always

10:34

have to say, with bad comes good, and she has She's

10:36

helped in so many people. And

10:38

in my situation, I feel strongly about

10:40

this in my situation, I

10:44

had so many people. I mean, the whole city of

10:46

Boston was behind all of us.

10:48

Right, talked about Bostons and

10:55

people that I've met over the years

10:58

have car accidents,

11:00

diabetes whatever, and lose

11:03

limbs and don't have any of

11:05

that support that I had. So

11:07

I felt very strongly because I had so

11:10

much help and it helped me so much, and I don't

11:12

know what I would have done without that much

11:14

help. So every time when I can help somebody,

11:16

I feel like I'm just paying it forward, you know, And

11:19

I hope that and I tell them that if they

11:21

need somebody else they had some too. Wow,

11:26

you're you're really a remarkable person,

11:28

and not you are.

11:31

I just don't. I just dealt with a situation

11:33

that came to me as best as I could. You know,

11:36

I didn't choose this, but I'm

11:38

not done living, so of

11:40

course has gone. That

11:44

was Celesque Corkran and her sister Carmen

11:46

Icabo in Boston. In

11:51

New York, I got to talk with Lauren Manning

11:54

in two thousand one. Lauren was

11:56

a Wall Street executive at Candor Fitzgerald,

11:59

which was located it in the Twin Towers

12:02

on September eleven, Lauren was

12:04

just entering the lobby of the North Tower

12:06

when the first plane hit and a

12:08

fireball from the elevator shaft

12:11

enveloped her, burning more than

12:14

two of her body. Lauren,

12:16

who is also a wife and mother of two

12:18

sons, Tyler and Jagger, had

12:21

a slim chance of survival. And

12:24

yet you will not believe how

12:26

far she has come since I met

12:28

her two decades ago. She

12:31

is a real force of nature. Please

12:34

welcome the extraordinary Lauren. Manny.

12:39

You know I wanted. I was so thrilled,

12:42

Lauren, first of all, that you were willing to come

12:44

back and and sort of reconnect

12:46

with me, because you're such an

12:49

amazing person. It's such a inspiration

12:52

to me still to this day.

12:54

And I wanted to ask you just about

12:57

this whole healing process, because obviously

13:00

we just passed the twentieth anniversary

13:03

of nine eleven. Um, do you do

13:05

you have any residual effects from

13:08

the injuries that you sustained that day?

13:12

Completely so, my life on a daily

13:14

basis is lived

13:16

through a different prism of what

13:18

happened to me, and every

13:21

aspect of it is compromised

13:23

from the way any limb works to

13:26

the way my voice works. Learning how to walk

13:29

again and speak again, and to

13:31

really live again is all a study

13:34

in an ongoing series of

13:36

pain UM, only punctuated

13:39

by sometimes, uh,

13:41

the blessings that I have in life of a husband

13:44

and children who are even more painful

13:46

in certain moments. You

13:49

know, Lauren, you were you were a badass

13:51

before this happened, and I'm curious

13:53

if you're kind of tough. You're such

13:55

a determined woman. I mean,

13:57

when I met you at that rehab center, you

14:00

I just couldn't believe how focused

14:03

you were on getting better. Do you think your

14:05

personality type really contributed

14:08

to your healing? And You're you're a singular

14:10

focus on that, I

14:12

think so certainly. You know, we

14:15

all come from a different place

14:17

in a sense. But my

14:19

family and my my upbringing, and

14:22

UH also being in a business

14:25

that was dominated by men who

14:27

are all wonderful in so many ways, but highly

14:30

misogynistic and many others,

14:32

really difficult to make the

14:34

grade and to get paid what you

14:36

should. And it created within

14:39

me a thesis, along with my family's

14:41

service through the years, UH

14:43

in the armed services, back to the Revolutionary

14:46

Revolutionary War, that I

14:48

UM was there in ninety three when

14:50

the first Trade Center

14:53

terrorists detect occurred, and I

14:55

knew in a sense and believed, as many of us

14:58

did, they would come back. And when

15:00

I looked up and knew that most

15:02

of my friends and colleagues were certainly

15:04

gone, I had this chance,

15:07

and uh, I was not going to squander

15:09

one minute of it. And and so

15:11

many people from Canada. Fitzgerald

15:14

died that day. Was over six hundred,

15:16

right, six hundred and fifty eight. That's

15:19

just so hard to believe. Meanwhile, you

15:22

and you and Greg, and your husband

15:24

is such a sweetheart. Please

15:26

give him my best. You had another

15:29

son after this, You

15:31

have a son named Jagger. So Tyler

15:33

is now twenty one, and Jagger

15:36

is now eleven. Is that right? But we

15:38

just turned twelve. Tyler

15:41

just turned twenty one, and he's at Jay's

15:43

alma matera the wonderful Trinity

15:45

College, and Jon Mohlner's alm alma

15:48

mater, Trinity College and Hertford.

15:50

Yeah, and uh, Jagger

15:53

turned twelve. And I

15:55

don't know how many of you have children, but twelve

15:57

is like fifteen. And

16:00

I've never been so wrong in my

16:02

life. Uh,

16:05

this was a reprieve to be here. To this

16:07

evening, so like happy

16:09

to say goodbye to my young boss. Um,

16:13

I am just so happy to see you. How so

16:16

life today. You have the challenges of having

16:18

an adolescent son, but and

16:20

you're you're You're also still

16:23

this tough businesswoman. I'm so

16:25

proud of you. You've got to start up, You're working,

16:28

you know, really hard on that. So

16:31

things are, things are good. How would you

16:33

describe your life today? I mean, they

16:36

are what they are. I think for most of us,

16:38

they're wonderful days and challenging days.

16:40

But the blessing of

16:43

having the moment to prevail over

16:46

the fears of failure, which

16:48

were very easy to let go after

16:50

nine eleven, has um

16:53

really given me an opportunity to

16:55

be in a space of doing

16:57

what I need to do in terms of supporting

17:00

things like sanctuary for families and

17:02

I pads for soldiers and helping wounded

17:05

and injured soldiers and starting a

17:07

startup based on social commerce

17:09

and the nexus of privacy for consumers

17:11

and allowing us all to get paid for it. So

17:14

that's a long winded answer, but well,

17:16

it sounds like your life is very full

17:19

and rich and purposeful.

17:22

It is purposeful, yes,

17:25

if not always divinely well

17:28

choreographed. I'm trying to get from

17:30

here to there, and you have been certainly

17:32

someone I've always looked to as

17:35

a woman that has led the way for

17:37

so many of us. I feel

17:39

so blessed and privileged that

17:41

I got to meet you, Lauren, and

17:43

I'm so proud of everything you've accomplished

17:46

and all that you've become despite

17:49

everything that you face. So thank

17:51

you for coming back and and being

17:54

here with us tonight. Thank you,

17:57

Thank you Laura

18:00

and Manning. Everyone. We'll

18:03

be back with more highlights from my book tour

18:06

right after this. At

18:17

each city I traveled to for my book

18:19

tour, I reconnected with some

18:21

of the people I've met during my career who

18:24

have left a lasting impression, people

18:27

like Tom and Pam Bosley, who

18:29

I got to know through a documentary I produced

18:31

in called

18:34

Under the Gun. The Bosley's have

18:36

worked tirelessly to reduce

18:38

the amount of gun violence, not only

18:40

here in Chicago, but all across

18:43

the country. They've joined forces

18:45

with other families and are

18:47

a real example to me of turning

18:50

their tragedy into action.

18:52

I just love them so much, so please

18:55

welcome Tom and Pam Bosley.

18:58

Tom and Pam lost their oldest son,

19:00

Terrell, to gun violence in two thousand

19:02

and six. He was just a nineteen

19:05

year old kid on his way to band practice

19:07

at his local church. His

19:09

murder remains unsolved

19:11

to this day. You know, it's been

19:14

fifteen years since you lost

19:16

Terrell and he would be

19:18

thirty three years old today, which

19:20

is so hard to believe. And you

19:23

all did everything right. You

19:25

kept him busy, you kept him involved

19:28

in sports and extracurricular

19:30

activities. It just broke

19:32

my heart to see him on those videos.

19:34

I'm sure it's just crushing for you all.

19:36

But um, what

19:39

you know when you think about Terrell today,

19:42

what do you think about Tom?

19:44

What? Well, probably by now we would

19:47

be grandparents hopefully,

19:49

and uh, you know, we just miss everything

19:51

about him, the music, the personality.

19:54

And you know a lot of his friends

19:56

have are now they're grown and they're

19:58

married wickid, so you

20:01

know when we see them, we flashed back a little

20:03

bit. You have two other sons, Trey

20:05

and Terrest. I know, tell us

20:07

how they're doing. Actually, trade,

20:10

I'm gonna start with the rest. So this is

20:12

my mildest son. So that's the one nobody

20:14

never sees. But he's my one that keeps

20:16

me a courage. Um.

20:18

He was actually closer to Terrel. So he

20:21

the one to be like, mom, you've got this, um

20:23

and he's always in the background. But Tray

20:26

is my uh my rock my,

20:28

he's my baby. But he's an activist.

20:30

He's outspoken. Uh, he's

20:32

the one that more like me,

20:34

you know as far as coming out talking about

20:37

tell story. So his goal is

20:39

he's an activist and his goal is to um

20:42

reduce gun violence. And

20:44

I know that when you lost Terrell,

20:47

you felt so alone and

20:51

and and there was nobody to really talk

20:53

to about what you all were

20:56

going through. And that was the impetus

20:58

for you to start this incredible organization

21:01

called Purpose over Pain. Tell

21:04

us about that we did that first year when

21:06

um, my life went throughout

21:09

our life was destroyed because through

21:11

our life was taken. I try to take my life twice,

21:14

UM, so I didn't have nobody to turn to.

21:17

And what I myself, um

21:19

A Nettop She's Blare the

21:21

MoMA Blair Hope who was killed on the bus

21:24

and some more of us. We came together and

21:26

we started Purpose over Pain because we knew

21:28

God had a purpose for our life. So

21:31

what we started doing was supporting other

21:33

parents like us, uh, because

21:35

we didn't you know. Actually, throughout the

21:37

years we've been meeting people who who

21:40

didn't make it, you know, because of this. So we

21:42

support parents by doing events like

21:45

uh, this Christmas coming up,

21:47

it's a hard time for us. So we actually put

21:49

together sneakers ball Um.

21:51

We do different things to support them, and we

21:53

advocate for comments since gun maagers, we

21:56

mentor young people. So we just try

21:58

to stay busy helping each other and try to get

22:00

our cases stived because in the city of Chicago, over

22:03

the cases we may unstave. So we

22:05

walked the streets and we try to solve our cases.

22:08

So we united together to help

22:10

each other and just to support each other. And

22:12

you won't get phone calls, I mean

22:15

at all hours of the night from

22:17

grieving parents, which must

22:19

be so difficult. Tom, It's

22:21

tough because it never stops. Um.

22:24

You know, you hear about some cases in the news,

22:27

but then we get the ones you don't hear about

22:29

in the news, and and every time

22:31

you get that call, it takes you back to

22:33

the day that you got that call, you

22:36

know, so you're constantly reliving it. So

22:38

at times it's difficult. But the

22:41

joy you get, if there's a joy,

22:44

is that you're helping a parent get

22:46

through this process as best you possibly

22:48

can so that you know, um,

22:50

they can keep the memory of their kids alive

22:53

and we can bind together and

22:55

hopefully make a difference. Just have support,

22:58

right exactly because it's it's we get

23:00

like forty five phone calls a week. Actually

23:02

have the number in my pocket. I've

23:04

brought it with me, um, because

23:06

we really need to always say these numbers. UM.

23:09

Year to date here in Chicago,

23:11

we had three thousand, nine hundred and seventy

23:13

eight people shot and six dred

23:15

and eighty eight people did and nobody really

23:18

talked about it. And and November just you

23:20

know, we just started November, we had fifty

23:22

two people shot and we have twelve dead.

23:24

And these are the phone calls we get every single day.

23:27

We're getting forty five calls a week trying

23:30

to help buried children. And that's what purpose of the paying

23:32

do we make donations to burying our children

23:34

Because some people don't have insurance,

23:37

they don't have anything, so they you know,

23:39

want to cremate their children because they don't have money

23:41

to bury them. So UM, we

23:43

we there for them, We support

23:45

them all kinds of ways. Why why hasn't

23:47

it gotten better? Um? You know the statistics

23:50

in Chicago or worse than ever.

23:53

And I know that the governor has been

23:55

very supportive and is channeling

23:57

a lot of money million

24:00

dollars to to

24:02

to address some of the systemic

24:05

issues that are creating these problems.

24:07

But you know, how

24:10

do you how do you explain that

24:13

it's it's worse than effort? You

24:15

know, I was, I was speaking earlier. It's

24:18

a will issue in my opinion, Um,

24:21

just like the pandemic. You know, if you can

24:23

bring resources together to come

24:25

up with a cure, uh for a vaccine,

24:27

you can do the same thing for the pandemic of gun

24:29

violence. But there is a will, there's

24:32

a lack of a will to h

24:34

to do that. Well, I know one thing that gives

24:36

you hope is your son Trey has

24:39

become an activist as well, and

24:41

he gave a speech um

24:43

at the the two thousand

24:45

eighteen March for Our Lives event. I

24:48

was actually there in Washington, d C. Let's

24:50

show tray in action. It's

24:53

time to care about all communities eating.

24:56

It's time to stop judging some communities it's

24:58

worth as some community word. It's

25:00

time to stop judging you that look like me

25:03

or my brother, that come from a privates

25:05

communities any different than anyone else. It's

25:12

time for America to notice that everyday

25:14

shootings are everyday problems. I'll

25:18

close with this Pope by Marlotha King was

25:20

said, we must accept finite disappointment,

25:22

but never lose infinite hope. I said

25:25

this to say, no matter the hurdles we may face along

25:27

this journey, we must remain hopeful, and we must

25:29

continue to stand together and fight for the lines

25:31

that we deserve. Thank that's

25:33

awesome. I know you're very proud

25:35

of him, aren't you. Yes, we are. Well.

25:38

I'm so grateful that you both

25:40

came to to actually see

25:42

me and to share your story

25:45

with everybody in the audience. Thank you for

25:47

everything you're doing. And let's

25:49

not let four years past before

25:51

I get to visit with you all again. Thank

25:53

you, Sam and Tom Boss everyone.

26:02

Meanwhile, in Atlanta, I met up with

26:04

Amy Copeland in a

26:07

zip lining accident resulted in a gash

26:09

in Amy's leg that required

26:11

twenty two staples. The

26:13

wound was infected by a flesh eating

26:15

bacteria that's incredibly rare,

26:18

but also incredibly deadly.

26:21

It cut off her blood flow and five

26:23

of Amy's organs shut down completely.

26:26

She was on life support for several days.

26:29

To save her, doctors had to amputate

26:31

both of her hands, her left leg,

26:34

and most of her right. She

26:37

was twenty four years old. The last

26:39

time I got to talk to Amy was back in just

26:42

a few months after her injury.

26:45

So much has changed since then.

26:48

Well, let's talk about sort of what's

26:51

been going on with you physically, because I

26:53

know you still do occupational therapy.

26:55

What twice a week? Still tell us

26:57

a little bit about the healing because

27:00

you continue to work

27:02

and to make sure that you're

27:04

as as independent as

27:07

you possibly can. Tell us what that involves.

27:09

Ye, So physically, I'm a swimmer, so

27:11

I swim. I woke up and swam

27:14

a mile this morning. Wow. And

27:16

I'm also a registered yoga teacher, so

27:18

I also practice yoga on a daily

27:21

basis, and I work out with weights because

27:23

having a disability, one of the most important

27:25

things is that I'm fit. And look, I know

27:28

you you are a beast in the gym. Amy,

27:31

That's awesome. Do you work out every single day

27:33

about five or six days a week. I try to give

27:35

myself, you know, even God rested for a day.

27:39

And how important that must be incredibly

27:41

important for you to make

27:43

sure that you're as strong as you possibly

27:45

can be, right, especially shoulders strength

27:47

to prevent injuries. I use my shoulders

27:50

and compensate with my shoulders for a lot of movements,

27:53

So being able to keep that strength is

27:55

really important to protect my body. So let's

27:57

talk about what you're doing. First of all, tell everyone

28:00

what you got your two master's degrees

28:02

in show off um and what

28:04

you're doing with those degrees because it's so

28:07

interesting. Yeah. So, first

28:09

master's degree in psychology, second

28:11

in social work. I'm now a licensed

28:13

clinical social worker in Georgia

28:15

and in Arizona, and I run

28:18

my own counseling group. So I have about

28:20

eight therapists who I direct

28:22

and consult with, and we

28:24

create affordable mental health opportunities

28:27

for people in Atlanta who may not have

28:29

health insurance coverage, so with fees

28:31

as low as thirty five dollars. And

28:34

then I also run a nonprofit organization

28:36

which is so Amy Copeland

28:38

Foundation. Yeah, so tell everyone what

28:40

the Amy Copeland Foundation does,

28:42

because I think it's so

28:45

awesome what you're trying to do, and

28:47

we also want to sell these nice people that

28:49

you're still fundraising for it, so explain

28:52

what it is. So our

28:54

mission at Amy Copeland Foundation is to bridge

28:56

the gap between nature and accessibility,

29:00

particular for people who are in wheelchairs.

29:03

One thing I realized waking up with the

29:05

disability is I didn't have the same freedom

29:07

I used to to be in nature, and

29:10

that was what I studied. After

29:12

a while, I realized people in wheelchairs

29:14

really needed that most. So we're doing that

29:16

in two ways. One is by creating

29:19

accessible workshop retreats, so we

29:21

go to beautiful places in nature and

29:24

people can come out and learn pain

29:26

management and self regulation techniques

29:29

for improving mental, physical, and spiritual

29:31

well being. In addition to that,

29:33

we just started our All Terrained Georgia

29:35

program, which actually allows people

29:38

in wheelchairs to visit their own community

29:40

parks any time they want with their family

29:42

and friends, which is so great. And I know

29:45

that these wheelchairs are expensive, and

29:47

so you want to make sure that you

29:49

get them and make them accessible for

29:52

people who need them all across the state

29:54

of Georgia and all all state parks.

29:56

Right that's right, and right now we

29:58

actually are doing our been cutting next

30:01

Monday for the first ten shares, which

30:04

will be housed at ten state parks within

30:06

about an hour or two of Metro Atlanta, and

30:08

those will be available for free rental

30:11

by people with disabilities starting in April.

30:13

This is the first program of its kind in the

30:16

United States, but I've already gotten

30:18

interest from North Carolina, Florida, Alabama,

30:21

Tennessee, South Carolina. That's where

30:23

all want to start programs there. So we're out.

30:26

He's so great. I was gonna

30:28

ask you, and we wanted to replicate it

30:31

in other states across the country. And

30:33

you know, I know that you that you do ecotherapy,

30:36

So is that mean sort of the idea

30:39

of healing out in nature, and that's

30:41

why you have these workshops where you bring

30:44

folks who kind of you believe in

30:46

in that kind of healing and the power

30:49

of nature to help people, right, that's

30:51

right. Yeah. I studied ecopsychology,

30:53

and what we learned there is that we're

30:57

from the earth, We're related to

30:59

the earth, we are a part of

31:01

the earth, and so being pulled

31:03

out of nature and

31:06

being really sedentarian indoors

31:08

can create a lot of secondary issues

31:10

for people who already have physical disabilities,

31:13

so the idea that it is only

31:15

natural for us to be in nature, and there's

31:17

all sorts of impacts that has on the human psyche.

31:20

I know that you are.

31:23

You struck me even I mean even when

31:25

I met you all those years ago, four

31:28

months after you were dealing

31:30

with everything. You are an

31:32

incredibly positive person, but

31:35

you also deal with some challenges

31:38

and there have been dark days for you to amy

31:41

and and how have you gotten through

31:43

that. I know that you're a big believer in kind

31:45

of seizing on

31:47

those those tough emotions

31:50

and letting that happen. And you have

31:52

an interesting story about falling down

31:54

and just kind of literally mentally

31:57

and physically collapsing. Yeah.

31:59

Yeah, yeah, it was right after

32:01

Actually I got the van on your TV

32:04

show. I got donated my wheelchair accessible

32:06

van and I would drive down to Valdosta.

32:09

And the very first time I ever went down

32:11

there, they brought me this tiny little

32:13

shower bench to use. It was my first

32:15

time showering outside my house.

32:18

And as soon as I reached for the shampoo,

32:21

I slipped right off and I was all alone.

32:23

So I reached for the grab bar. That's

32:25

what those are there for. Right, my

32:28

arms slipped in between the grab bar

32:30

and the wall, and I'm sitting on the floor

32:32

of the shower with my arm twisted

32:34

behind me, and y'all,

32:36

I just started screaming and crying

32:39

and it was amazing

32:41

what happened after my twenty minute

32:44

timber tantrum. Nothing.

32:49

I was still sitting on the floor of the shower of my

32:51

arm saying the grab bar, but I felt

32:53

a lot better. And it was kind of in that moment

32:56

that I realized life

32:59

is this whole wave of emotion and

33:01

we have to experience all of

33:04

it. And once all the emotion

33:06

came out of me, I saw the conditioner

33:08

there, and I've learned being in a wheelchair

33:10

you can dive or anything with duct

33:12

tape or w D forty, and

33:15

that conditioner might as well have been w D forty

33:17

because I was then able to squirt

33:19

it on my arm and a wriggle free.

33:22

But I truly believe that it was experiencing

33:25

all of it that allowed me to have

33:27

the clarity. So that's

33:30

kind of how I deal with it, by inviting in

33:32

whatever experiences I have without

33:34

judgment and letting them move,

33:37

because when they get trapped, that's when they

33:39

turn into something else. That's

33:42

a good life lesson, I think for everyone

33:44

right to let to let

33:46

it go and to feel the

33:48

pain so you can move on.

33:51

And I know meditation has helped

33:53

you enormously with pain management as

33:55

well, right, Amy, That's right. And you know meditation

33:58

is really about witnessing our experience

34:01

without judgment, just seeing what is

34:03

and breathing through it and being with

34:05

it. And so that's how I've managed to control

34:08

my pain is actually through relaxing.

34:10

Usually when we experience pain, we tense

34:13

against it, we try to get away from it, and

34:15

that creates a more painful experience

34:18

typically than the initial stimulus.

34:21

So what I've learned is that through relaxing

34:24

eases the pain and I can welcome

34:26

and breathe through anything, which means

34:28

I'm really not scared of very much anymore. Freathe

34:32

through it. Amazing and

34:34

and and and getting to a high

34:36

point. You got married last year.

34:39

I'm so happy for you. So,

34:42

um, tell me a little bit about your husband.

34:45

How you met. I know he shy

34:47

and kind of introverted. I wanted him to come

34:49

tonight, but he told Amy, go do your thing. I'll

34:51

be waiting at home. But he's a teacher, tell

34:54

me about it. Yes, he's a ninth grade

34:56

teacher, so teacher, social worker.

34:58

We get along real well. We have great

35:00

communication, great communication.

35:03

He would be rolling his eyes right now if he was here,

35:05

because he would say I over communicate.

35:07

But that's another story. But

35:09

yeah, we met after my injury. The

35:12

relationship I was in at the time did not

35:14

make it through that trauma, which was one of the

35:16

most heartbreaking parts of it for me. But

35:19

I got back into the dating world

35:21

and a wheelchair and all and online,

35:24

mind you, very interesting

35:26

experiences were had. But luckily

35:29

I met this one and he saved me

35:31

from all of that. Um. It turned

35:33

out we had about fifty mutual friends on

35:35

social media when we met, so

35:37

he actually went to the same school I did,

35:39

so we had an instant recognition and connection.

35:42

And I'm so happy for you. What's his

35:44

name, Stephen, Stephen. We'll

35:46

tell Stephen. We're so happy for him

35:48

and for you. And before before

35:51

you leave, you once wrote about

35:53

your accident and your life and you

35:55

said, if you had to do it all over

35:57

again, you wouldn't change a

35:59

thing, And that, to me is

36:02

quite a miraculous statement. Amy Copeland,

36:05

Why tell me how were you able

36:07

to say that? And why are you able to think that?

36:10

Well, Stephen one.

36:13

But also I've always

36:16

had this much energy, Katie, and now

36:19

I get invited here to talk to you and

36:21

to share this message with all these beautiful people,

36:23

and to start a program, the first

36:25

of its kind. This is really

36:27

exciting for me to be able to

36:30

make this impact, and for

36:32

me this is the reason, this is the meaning that this happened

36:34

to me, and for that I will be forever grateful.

36:37

Well, you're my hero, Amy Copeland.

36:39

Honestly, thank you for

36:41

coming. Thank you, I

36:45

mean, come on when

36:50

we come back. The story of one of the most

36:52

remarkable women I had ever met.

37:06

One of my last stops was to the Golden

37:08

City, San Francisco. Uh.

37:10

The fog made things a little tricky for

37:13

us to get here, but we got here

37:15

and we made it. Thank God. The Bay

37:17

Area is home to one Miss oral

37:20

Lee Brown. For more than two

37:22

decades, the Oral Lee Brown Foundation

37:25

has been paying for kids who are living

37:27

in some of Oakland's toughest neighborhoods

37:30

to go to college. It all started

37:32

on a whim after Earl met a little girl

37:34

who asked for change outside a corner

37:37

store. It was at that moment

37:39

that Oral realized the kids

37:41

in these neighborhoods were in trouble and

37:44

college was their way out. So

37:46

in n she adopted

37:49

a class of twenty three first graders,

37:51

and she made a promise to them that

37:54

if they graduated from high school, she

37:56

would pay for each and every one of

37:58

them to go to college. Now

38:01

Oral wasn't some millionaire. She was

38:03

a real estate agent who grew up picking

38:05

cotton in Mississippi. But

38:08

Oral kept that promise and she

38:10

didn't stop there. How

38:13

cool is Orally Brown? So I'm

38:15

super excited because

38:18

Orally is back, and please

38:21

welcome her to the stage. Miss Orally

38:23

drow So,

38:28

Um, you adopted that first class

38:30

of first graders, thirty

38:33

twenty three kids thirty four

38:35

years ago, and since then,

38:37

you, Orally Brown, has have sent

38:40

one hundred and twenty two kids to

38:42

college. Where me and God God

38:45

more than me, you and God

38:48

where I mean, you

38:50

were just one of the most extraordinary people

38:52

I've ever met in my whole career.

38:54

Orally really, so

38:58

I want I want people to learn a little

39:00

more about you. Orally tell us about

39:03

your childhood, because that makes

39:05

your story even more phenomenal,

39:08

well good evening. Um.

39:11

I was probably born in the worst

39:13

state in the Union, and that was in Mississippi,

39:17

and I started

39:19

working at the age of eight. My

39:21

father had a saying is that if

39:24

you ate, you contributed to the food.

39:26

So if you ate it, you

39:28

had to help bring it in, take

39:31

care of it, or pick it a hot

39:33

chocolate or what have you. So at

39:35

the age of eight, my mother started me

39:37

cooking. I was too

39:39

little at the time to know what

39:42

a warm was, so she

39:44

would take and pick the greens, but everything

39:46

else onmade cakes. At the age of eight, I

39:49

was making it and I was standing in the

39:51

cottonfield and I will just tell God, please

39:54

get me out of here. I will do whatever.

39:57

And you were one of twelve one or twelve

39:59

kids the baby set up. A

40:01

little before my twelfth birthday.

40:04

My mother sent me to stay with my sister

40:06

because she had eight kids, and

40:09

so kids was the least

40:11

thing on my mind. And

40:13

so when you make

40:15

a promise to God, sometimes

40:18

he will make sure that you keep it. Because

40:20

see my promise was Lord getting

40:22

me away from Mississippi. I'll do whatever

40:24

you know. And so

40:27

from Babyson to adopting

40:29

twenty three students and at

40:31

the time, I'm making for to five thousand

40:33

miles a year. So I was crazy.

40:36

You work and and and you. So you

40:38

started, before you started this foundation,

40:41

you were doing it on your own. Early you

40:43

were putting money away every single

40:45

month. You learned to do that, you

40:48

were investing it. And by the time

40:50

those first graders graduated, you

40:52

paid for nineteen kids to go

40:54

to college. How in the world did

40:57

you do that? You're like an investment

40:59

gene. No,

41:05

when God is mother climate,

41:07

it would go a long ways. And You're

41:10

right. By the time they graduated

41:12

out of mind forty five thousand knowledge

41:14

each year, I was able to

41:16

save ten thousand dollars, still paid

41:19

my ties, and still paid

41:21

my obligation. And one

41:23

of my friends said to me one day, or how

41:25

do you do it? And I reminded her that

41:28

I lived at one time off

41:30

for two dollars a day. Let

41:33

me repeat that, two dollars

41:35

a day, and so living

41:38

off for two thousand a day, then four to five

41:40

thousand, all I was a millionaire. And some

41:42

sense, what would these

41:44

kids have done without you? Orally I

41:47

was thinking about that all these

41:49

kids that you have helped, because

41:52

they were from tough circumstances,

41:55

weren't they. Um At

41:57

that time, there was at least four or five

42:00

young people's killed in

42:02

Oakland every week. You could go

42:04

to the film home and it's almost like a repeat

42:07

now with the COVID. But the COVID

42:09

was a disease. The killing

42:11

was manifest right there in the Stokeland

42:14

and it was no way out. And the kids would

42:16

tell me, and so many I'm saying, Mama

42:18

Brown, if it was not for you, I would be dead. And

42:20

I would say, baby, don't say that. No, Mom

42:22

is the truth. And so I think

42:25

we all have an obligation to

42:27

do. And once again a child,

42:30

a kid, not me, not

42:33

me, but see God said, oh, yes,

42:35

you made me a promise to get you out, and

42:38

you will do. He got me out of Mississippi

42:40

and I did. And

42:44

you know, you

42:47

stay in touch with some of these kids. I mean,

42:49

after all, the first group would

42:51

have graduated twenty years ago.

42:54

So do you keep in touch with them?

42:57

And and do you see them out

42:59

in the world thriving? And and

43:01

that must give you so much satisfaction.

43:04

It does. And not only do I say in

43:06

touch with them, they say in touch with me, And they

43:09

remind me. You know, mom, you gotta be there

43:11

for my wedding. You gotta be there from when I had my first

43:13

baby. No, Mama Brown is gonna Oh no, Mom,

43:16

you gotta be there. So No, they

43:18

are family. We are a family,

43:21

and I think the success probably

43:24

come from some of that because

43:26

one of the things I've tried to do is

43:29

always sent at least two kids to college

43:31

together. There's success rate

43:34

doubles and maybe even triple because

43:37

that's right when one want to leave the No,

43:39

no, just state to the semester and then let's

43:41

see what happened and so it works

43:43

out. So No, they they're on

43:45

their way. They are on their way. I

43:48

wish that was some of them.

43:50

You know. When I interviewed you on the Today's

43:52

Show back in two thousand two, I surprised

43:55

you with a couple of your students, and

43:57

one of them is Jeffrey Tony,

44:00

And I'm super excited because Jeffrey

44:02

is also here tonight and he

44:04

was one of the first graduates. So Jeffrey,

44:06

come out and tell us how you're doing.

44:15

Come closer, Jeffrey.

44:20

I mean, it's so thank you for

44:22

first of all, it's great to see you again. Almost

44:27

insane. Is that you're one of the first

44:30

of the graduating students that

44:32

that Ms Brown supported and

44:35

and sent to college. So tell

44:37

us a little bit about your journey, where

44:39

you went, and how you're doing now and

44:41

what you're doing now. Well, thanks

44:44

for having me. Uh. This lady

44:46

sitting to the right of me, I consider her a

44:48

real life angel. She saved my life.

44:56

I grew up in Oakland, poverty, single

44:58

parent, home, drugs, what

45:02

you name it violence. He's seeing things you shouldn't

45:04

see at a young age, and uh, you

45:06

don't really have dreams and hopes. But this

45:09

lady came in and made

45:12

a promise to adopt the entire

45:14

first grade class because of an experience

45:16

that she had, and it saved my life. Uh

45:19

in n I graduated

45:22

uh Castlemount High School

45:25

and I attended Columbia College in Chicago

45:27

and I studied business management. So

45:30

that is awesome. You

45:33

know. UM, A lot of people through the

45:35

years have asked you, Jeffrey, where

45:37

would you be without Oralie

45:39

Brown? And what do you tell him? Dead

45:41

or in jail? J She

45:44

saved my life. Like literally, the

45:47

things that I was engaged in in

45:49

high school I

45:52

could have easily died could easily with the jail.

45:55

But I was out hustling because I was homeless at

45:57

sixteen, so I was out trying

45:59

to feed myself and just survive.

46:02

And that opportunity

46:05

came and I ran with it, jump on that plane, went

46:07

to Chicago and here I am,

46:10

and tell us what you're doing today and

46:12

how you're doing, and all is

46:14

well. Of course, because of

46:16

Corona, things is a little shaky.

46:19

Um, but I've turned all of my passions

46:23

and the hobbies into the revenue

46:25

stream, so things that I enjoyed doing,

46:27

like graphic design. Um, I have

46:29

a recording studio fly

46:31

Drone, so I do a lot of video work. I

46:33

just released a poem book called Poetry

46:36

Hidden behind the Heart. It's on Amazon. Uh

46:39

you can check that out. And UH,

46:43

still doing music. I just got a song picked

46:45

up from UM

46:49

sitcom called All American, and they

46:51

picked up one of my songs because and

46:54

look, Orally is very proud

46:56

of you, and I know

46:58

that you have a found dation now and

47:00

you've got a whole team that helps you out because

47:03

um, you're seventy eight now

47:06

seventy six, sorry,

47:11

but I know that you want to continue

47:14

this legacy and you want to

47:17

pay it forward. Hand this off so

47:19

someone picks up whenever

47:21

you decide that you

47:23

need to take a break. Um,

47:26

so how are you doing that? You know,

47:28

Katie, Honestly, the only

47:30

thing that can help

47:33

some students is

47:36

to be there twenty four hours a

47:38

day, and a mother and a father. No matter how good you

47:40

are, you cannot do it. And so my

47:43

goal is to have a boarding

47:45

school. I have met

47:47

with some individuals that

47:49

almost agree with me. Uh,

47:51

there's one boarding school in Pineywood,

47:54

Mississippi, another one in Chicago,

47:56

and then Marva Collins in in um

47:58

Cincinnati, and so it's

48:01

the way to free them.

48:03

You know, with a boarding school, they are

48:06

there twenty four seven, so you know

48:08

they're gonna get the nutrition. They're gonna get the food.

48:11

Half of the kids failed because

48:13

they're not in school. But with a boarding

48:15

school, there's no truancy. If

48:18

you're not in the classroom, that Mama

48:20

Brown is gonna be up in the dorm or someone that looked

48:22

like me and both of us cannot

48:24

stay at no dorm between eight and three,

48:27

so you know, we just can't do it. So

48:29

someone have to leave, and it's not gonna be

48:31

me and so you

48:33

know, I think that once

48:36

we get the boarding school up and running,

48:38

we will be able to say at least

48:40

four or five students per year right

48:43

in the Bay area, because the need is

48:45

there. And and where do you get

48:47

your huge heart? I mean, to

48:50

to sacrifice so much and to give

48:53

so much two kids who have

48:55

so little, I guess

48:57

the one thing that always come to my

48:59

mind. And we was in Mississippi and

49:02

my mother, just like I said, she would pick

49:04

the greens. Because I'm eight years old, I don't know what a

49:06

warm meals. I mean, I know, but I don't know. If he's supposed

49:08

to be in the pot, he's supposed to be down on the floor,

49:10

you know. And maybe they meet for the greens, I

49:12

don't know. And

49:15

my mother had put the meat in the pot

49:18

to cook the greens. And one of

49:20

the neighbors came down to my mother's house

49:22

and wanted to know if she had some salt

49:24

pork meat. Her mother was cooking greens,

49:27

and I'm looking at my mother put the salt pork

49:29

meat in the pot, so I know it's no more,

49:32

and so I'm waiting for it. Say no, my

49:34

mother takes the pot off the stove,

49:37

take the piece of salt pork meat out, cut

49:39

it in half, put one piece back

49:42

in the pot and give the other two sister

49:44

to take the Miss Bess of Main. And

49:47

I said, Mama, that was

49:49

our meat. She said, still,

49:52

I was the ones in the body, the one that I gave

49:54

the siss. It's going to Miss BESSI man.

49:57

And so if you can share a piece

50:00

the slip for me, God knows,

50:02

I can give away half of what I have. Yea,

50:07

Orally and Jeffrey, I'm

50:09

so happy to see you, more

50:11

happy to uk you know. I love you.

50:14

I love you well yeah,

50:17

yeah, well about my cative

50:20

right back at you. Thank you so

50:22

much. And if people want to help and support

50:25

the work you're doing, how can they do that. It's

50:27

the Early Orally Brown Foundation

50:29

dot org and the phone numbers five

50:31

ten, four three or three or four one.

50:34

Just go on the website and look at Early

50:36

Brown. They tell me it's eighteen pages

50:39

of literature and students and you

50:41

know, all the information is there. Well, thank

50:43

you for everything you've done. Thank

50:45

you Jeffrey

50:49

much love you. That

50:54

was Orally Brown. We'll have

50:56

links to all the organizations we've

50:58

mentioned in this podcast. The episode

51:00

description, and if you're able

51:02

or in the giving mood this holiday season,

51:05

I hope you'll consider donating to their

51:08

very worthy causes. A

51:10

huge thank you to Celeste Corkran,

51:13

Lauren Manning, Tom and Pam

51:15

Bosley, Amy Copeland, Oral

51:18

Lee Brown and all of the

51:20

people I got to talk to on my tour.

51:23

And actually there's more of the tour to

51:25

share. This may be the last episode

51:27

of the season, but keep your ear to the podcast

51:30

because over the break will be releasing a

51:32

few bonus episodes featuring

51:34

some really fun and famous friends

51:37

who joined me on my book tour. Next

51:39

Question is taking a little hiatus, but we'll

51:42

be back with a whole new season, new

51:44

guests, new hot topics in

51:46

early Meanwhile,

51:49

Happy holidays to you and yours

51:52

from all of us at k c M.

51:58

Next Question with Katie Kurig. The production

52:00

of I Heeartmedia and Katie Curic Media.

52:03

The executive producers Army, Katie

52:05

Curic, and Courtney Litz. The supervising

52:08

producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate

52:10

producers Derek Clements and Adrianna

52:13

Fasio. The show is edited and

52:15

mixed by Derrek Clements. For

52:17

more information about today's episode or

52:19

To sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up

52:21

Call, go to Katie currek dot com.

52:24

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52:26

and all my social media channels.

52:29

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52:31

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52:33

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52:35

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