0:00

Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric, and welcome

0:02

to next Question. In

0:05

this unprecedented time of the coronavirus

0:08

pandemic, many of us are cooped

0:10

up on edge, full of anxiety

0:13

about our upturned worlds and

0:15

fearful that family, friends, are ourselves

0:18

could succumb to this virulent bug.

0:21

And yet a lot of people are finding

0:23

comfort in a surprising source,

0:26

Steven Soderbergh's two thousand and eleventh

0:28

thriller Contagion. A

0:33

mysterious and highly contagious virus

0:36

crosses continents in a matter of days

0:38

and kills Gwyneth Paltrow within

0:40

the first eight minutes of the movie. What

0:43

happened to her? What

0:46

happened to her? The result

0:49

citywide lockdowns, panic

0:51

driven looting, spreeze, and mass

0:53

graves. And without a vaccine,

0:55

we can anticipate that approximately

0:59

one in people on the planet will

1:01

contract the disease. When

1:04

I recently rewatched the movie,

1:07

like thousands of you according to social media

1:09

and the iTunes charts, I was struck

1:11

by how familiar it all seemed, from

1:14

the rapid spread, to the government's controlled

1:16

messaging, to the social distancing

1:19

and a public growing more frightened

1:21

by the day. I

1:24

do think in times of you

1:26

know, anxiety and panic, people

1:29

turn to popular culture

1:31

to enhance their understanding of what's

1:33

going on. Scott Burns is

1:35

a filmmaker and the screenwriter of Contagion,

1:38

and he said, though the movie seems prescient

1:40

now, if you talked to any

1:42

one of the experts he consulted with ten

1:45

or twelve years ago, they would

1:47

have told you the very same thing, that

1:49

it was a matter of when and

1:52

not if we would encounter exactly

1:55

what we're encountering. So I

1:57

believe in science, and I think of

2:00

people who I worked with are extraordinarily

2:03

dedicated scientists. So um,

2:06

I'm not surprised, which

2:09

leads me to my next question. What

2:11

kind of movie about a pandemic teach

2:14

us about the real thing? I was

2:16

lucky enough to spend a little bit of time, from

2:18

the comfort of our own homes, of course, with

2:21

not only Scott Burns, but also

2:23

one of the lead consultants on the film,

2:26

Dr Ian Lipkin, a k a.

2:28

The Virus Hunter. Yes, I'm

2:30

me a loopcoun my professor at

2:33

Columbia University, and I worked closely with

2:35

Scott in developing

2:37

the concept of the film.

2:40

Before we talked to Dr Lipkin about

2:42

his reaction when you approached him to

2:44

be a consultant on this film.

2:46

What piqued your interest initially, Scott

2:49

in tackling this in the form

2:51

of a feature film. Steven Soderberg

2:54

and I had just completed doing another

2:56

film with Matt Damon called The Informant

2:59

and we were actually um on

3:02

our way home and he said, what do you think

3:04

you want to do next? And I

3:07

said that I

3:09

want to do

3:12

a pandemic movie that is

3:14

entirely science based. I had seen Outbreak

3:17

when I was growing up, like a lot of people, um,

3:20

but I wanted to do one that was,

3:23

you know, more of the moment

3:25

and really looked

3:28

at a pandemic as

3:30

sort of a tracer bullet through our

3:32

society. So you decide you

3:34

want to put your lens

3:37

on this topic and you

3:39

want to do as much research as

3:41

possible. How were

3:44

you led to Dr Ian in terms

3:47

of his knowledge on the topic,

3:49

Well, The informant Um and a

3:51

movie I had done before that. I had

3:54

done with a company in l A called participant

3:57

Um, which is owned by Jeff Skoll,

3:59

and Jeff Um has

4:03

a philanthropical arm to his company

4:06

and they focus on a variety

4:08

of threats to the world. One of them was pandemic

4:11

illness. And because Jeff

4:13

and I knew each other, when

4:15

he found out, I wanted to, you

4:18

know, to write that as my next

4:20

movie. He insisted that

4:23

he be involved in his company and

4:25

be involved because it was so central to

4:27

their mission. And uh,

4:30

Jeff introduced me to Dr Larry Brilliant,

4:33

who was an epidemiologist in the Bay area.

4:36

Um and and Larry was my

4:38

first point of contact, and he was part

4:40

of a team, you know,

4:42

along with d. A. Henderson, that

4:45

helped eradicate smallpox

4:47

in the sixties. Um and I

4:49

had lunch with Larry, and like

4:51

I said, he was one of the people who said, it's

4:53

really a matter of when

4:56

and not if. And

4:58

he told me that he thought the best

5:00

barologists in the world was

5:02

was Ian Lipkin. And

5:04

he helped me get a meeting with Ian. And

5:07

when I sat in the end's office, the agreement

5:09

that we made was that this

5:11

was only worth doing if the

5:14

science was authentic. Um

5:16

and we began to talk about the limitations

5:19

of what that might mean to a story, and

5:22

it became clear to me in talking to Ian that when

5:24

you look at the complexity of nature,

5:27

and when you begin to understand what viruses

5:30

are um, you

5:32

know, sadly there really are no limitations.

5:35

Dr Lipkin, when you were approached by

5:38

Scott, what did you think of the notion

5:40

of turning this into a movie.

5:43

Ironically, there were two independent

5:46

filmmakers who approached me one

5:48

day after the next in

5:50

the same location to talk

5:53

about making a pandemic movie, and

5:56

Scott was the first. I

6:00

met the second individual who wanted to make something

6:02

that was going to look like Outbreak, which

6:05

was an unrealistic, a

6:07

very entertaining film,

6:09

and I came back to Scott and I said,

6:12

let's do this. From the very beginning

6:14

was clear that

6:17

what Scott wanted to do was to educate

6:19

as well as entertain, so

6:21

that this would have an impact. So

6:24

we had a great deal of fun deciding

6:27

what the virus would look like, what

6:30

the various components would be of

6:32

storyline. He understands obviously

6:35

narrative, and what I was trying to

6:38

do is to provide the scientific

6:40

underpinning for what he wanted to do, and

6:43

then periodically to provide a sort of a list

6:45

of things that I thought were critical to

6:47

convey, which he would then weave into the

6:49

story. So it was a very,

6:51

very interactive process and a great

6:53

deal of fun. I was going

6:55

to say only a virologists would describe

6:58

that as a great deal of fun, Doctor

7:01

Lipkin. And when when you talked about

7:04

what was critical to include

7:06

in the plot, and then Scott,

7:08

I want to ask you about how you

7:10

did this monumental research

7:13

because you did it, I understand for three

7:16

over three years. But were

7:18

some of the things that you wanted to

7:20

ensure would be featured

7:23

in the movie, Dr Lipkin. From

7:25

the very beginning, we want to emphasize

7:27

the point of one health, the idea

7:29

that infectious agents emerge

7:32

in wildlife and then move into

7:34

humans. We wanted to understand the

7:36

factors that contribute to that and what

7:38

can be done for risk

7:40

reduction, and

7:42

the sorts of things we identified then I

7:46

have played out here. We wanted to talk

7:48

about the challenges

7:50

and finding ways to identify an infectious

7:53

agent, the political

7:55

interactions which can interfere with

7:59

progress and sign it's which he covered extremely

8:01

well. The social

8:03

unrest that was associated with people who

8:06

come out of the woodwork promising

8:08

various false panases. We'd

8:10

begun to see those here too. And

8:13

then the implications of such

8:15

an outbreak for social structure,

8:18

loss of life, how

8:20

we respond, and ultimately

8:23

how it all resolves. One

8:25

positive thing emanating from this,

8:28

Dr Lipkin is, in

8:30

recent years science has

8:33

been treated with skepticism

8:35

and even hostility

8:38

by many people, not only in this country

8:40

but around the world. Do you

8:42

think this will win

8:45

back some of the I

8:47

think much needed and much

8:49

an appropriate respect for the scientific

8:52

community. I

8:55

hope so. UM. When the

8:57

movie first came out, there

8:59

was a big uptick and applications

9:02

for training at the CDC in

9:05

the Epidemiology Intelligence Service.

9:09

We think, you know, as I look

9:11

right now at the number of applications we're

9:13

receiving at the School of Public Health of Columbia,

9:16

despite the fact that we're shut down, there

9:19

are people are writing asking how

9:21

can they join, how can they be helpful, what can

9:23

they do? So it is having

9:25

an impact in that respect.

9:28

This trend to not

9:31

believe science or to dismiss

9:34

it, uh, must

9:36

be disconcerting to you. It

9:39

is one of the large challenges

9:42

we have is that people think that their ways

9:45

to shortcut, for example, with clinical

9:47

trials, and it's

9:50

very important that we have appropriately

9:52

controlled trials otherwise we

9:55

get to the end of a trial and we don't know what works

9:57

and what doesn't, and we subject people to

10:00

expense and risk that's really unjustified.

10:04

Um. So another example

10:06

of that is vaccines. People have this

10:08

notion who don't understand how

10:10

vaccines are trialed and

10:13

proven, that we can just roll out

10:15

of vaccine in a few months

10:17

time, and it's just not true.

10:21

It's critical that the leadership on

10:24

which we rely at the very top of the

10:26

regional and state and federal governments

10:29

respect the people who

10:31

are trying to give them the best information

10:33

that they can. So the

10:35

President has excellent people in

10:38

the director of n I I D. Tony

10:40

Fauci and and um, you know in

10:42

the new head of the of the Task

10:45

Force, Deborah Burkeleum.

10:48

But sometimes they appear to be sidelined.

10:51

And this is unfortunate because

10:54

some of the drugs that are proposed haven't really

10:56

been proven to be a use. Maybe

10:58

they will be, and maybe they want um.

11:01

So it's important that we do this in the stepwise

11:04

and the logical fashion so that

11:06

we minimize the risk of people when

11:09

we come back will isolate the moments

11:12

in the movie that nine years

11:14

later seems so real

11:29

contagion, of course, isn't just about

11:31

the spread of a new virus. It's about

11:33

the spread of information about

11:35

how narratives around public health are

11:37

created, who creates them,

11:39

and how they're disseminated. And

11:42

it's this behind the scenes element

11:44

of the movie that's so uncanny

11:47

to watch today. Pretty early

11:49

in the film, we're introduced to Kate Winslett's

11:51

character, an epidemic intelligence

11:54

officer with the CDC who's

11:56

been dispatched to Minnesota where

11:58

there's been a cluster of an infections and deaths.

12:01

She meets with the heads of the Minnesota Department

12:04

of Health to evaluate the situation

12:07

and determine the public response

12:09

and how's the public going to react to that. It's hard to

12:11

say plastic shark in a movie

12:13

will keep people from getting in the ocean, But a warning

12:16

on the side of a pack of cigarettes when we're going to need

12:18

to walk the government through this before we start to freak everybody

12:20

out. I mean, we

12:23

can't even tell people right now what they should be afraid

12:25

of. We tried that with swine food, and all we did was get

12:27

healthy people scared. That's

12:29

really eerie, Scott listening

12:32

to that dialogue. Yeah, well,

12:34

um, you know,

12:37

when I went to CDC, you know,

12:39

one of the things that I learned early on

12:41

is that we have fifty

12:44

different state health departments

12:46

and you know, within those

12:48

states, they all operate differently. And

12:50

one of the tricky parts of

12:53

this, and we're certainly seeing it,

12:55

is you need a coherent

12:58

sort of program because without

13:01

that, you know, you get this patchwork

13:03

going, and a virus doesn't

13:05

really care about a state border, um,

13:08

and so much of you

13:11

know, there's so much interstate travel

13:14

and commerce in this country, and

13:16

then you know there's the entire globe,

13:19

and so until you have a

13:22

consistent federal program

13:24

that tells the states how to act, and

13:26

that it's embraced by the state's governors,

13:29

regardless of their political orientation,

13:32

we're very, very vulnerable. And

13:35

it's tricky to explain

13:37

to people who don't have

13:39

a background in these things how

13:42

how they proliferate. And that's

13:45

what I was trying to do in that scene, is

13:47

is think about if you're someone

13:50

who is sent to a state

13:52

to tell them, you know what's

13:55

going on, Um,

13:57

you know what the resistance is. You're going to meet

13:59

just from the officials, not to mention from the

14:01

general public. So at this point,

14:03

I think we have to believe this is respiratory

14:06

maybe fall mights too. What's that it

14:09

refers to transmission from surfaces. The

14:12

average person touches their face two or three

14:15

thousand times a day, two or three thousand

14:17

times a day, three to

14:19

five times every waking minute. In

14:22

between, we're touching door

14:24

knobs, water fountains, elevator

14:26

buttons, and each other. Those things become

14:29

mights. The only pushback we

14:31

had from the Minnesota

14:34

Department of Health was that they said, nobody

14:36

needs to explain to us what a

14:38

foam might is. And

14:41

my defense of that was, well, we needed

14:43

a teachable moment and

14:45

we had to do this, unfortunately at your expense,

14:47

but somebody had to be Somebody

14:49

had to explain what an or not was. That

14:52

wasn't part of what you were talking about there, but which

14:54

is the transmissibility in text and

14:57

what full mights are, so that we could get that

14:59

point across that said,

15:01

this is a um. This

15:03

is a harbinger of what came

15:06

to be recently because

15:08

it turns out that FOAMT transmission is

15:10

extremely important with this infection.

15:13

This virus persists on surfaces for

15:16

up to three days, and so

15:19

the opportunities for transmission are

15:21

much greater, and they are with many

15:23

respiratory tract infections. So

15:27

we have say, as you said at the very beginning,

15:29

Katie, this is eerily prophetic. But

15:33

so many things in the film are, which

15:35

I think is really a testament to Scott's

15:37

imagination and somehow managing

15:40

put it all in there. What about the

15:42

battle that we heard unfolding

15:45

between Kate Winslet's character and

15:48

all the considerations about

15:50

how transparent you should be. It's

15:53

the biggest shopping weekend of the year. I think we need

15:55

to consider closing schools and who stays home

15:57

with the kids, people that work at stores,

16:00

government work as people that work at hospitals. When

16:02

will we know what this is? Have you seen

16:05

those factors being brought to

16:07

bear, Dr Lipkin in the current

16:10

pandemic. Three weeks

16:12

ago, I had a conversation with a very

16:14

high level official, elected

16:16

official where we talked about

16:19

closing schools, and I said that I

16:21

thought this was something that we

16:23

should do. And the response that came

16:25

back from not only this elected

16:27

official, but also the individuals

16:30

who were advising this official, was

16:33

that there was going to be no way

16:35

to feed the children who depended

16:37

on schools for their breakfasts and for their lunch.

16:40

And then when these children went home, their parents were

16:42

going to have no way to take care of them,

16:44

and the grandparents who frequently assigned

16:47

to take care of these children might become infected

16:49

because these kids would carry back this

16:52

virus from the community into their

16:54

houses. And I said, I understand

16:56

all of things things, but if we don't do it now,

16:59

it's going to get worse. And

17:02

ultimately, of course, this is what we've

17:04

done. We've had to close all of these schools. We

17:07

need a national policy, we

17:09

actually need an international policy.

17:12

But if we just stick naturally for a moment,

17:14

we need to have a way in which everybody

17:17

understands that this is what we're going to need to do

17:20

for some period of time. And I think that period

17:22

of time is probably six

17:24

weeks, maybe eight weeks. But

17:27

we have to enforce it rigorously if we're going to

17:29

get out of this. Were you disappointed

17:32

with the both the response

17:34

at the federal, state and local

17:37

level to this pandemic?

17:40

Very much so? Um

17:42

I came back from China the first week

17:44

of February, and it was clear

17:46

to me that we were headed for a

17:48

very difficult situation. I

17:51

managed to speak with a number of people I know quite

17:53

well. One of them is the mayor

17:56

of Chicago, who's an old family friend,

17:59

and she took things very seriously, but she was

18:01

unable to do much of what

18:03

she wanted to do. And

18:05

here in New York, as you know, UM,

18:08

there's been a struggle between the city and

18:11

the state, upstate and downstate

18:13

in terms of kinds of responses that

18:15

we're willing to entertain. I

18:17

think that we should have closed things earlier, and

18:20

I think that that would have made a difference,

18:22

But we'll never know. What about

18:25

the federal response. Dr Lipkin, Well,

18:29

the problem in talking about the response

18:33

at the federal level is that I don't want to

18:35

discourage cooperation. I

18:38

think there are many things that the President has

18:40

done that I think I've been extremely

18:43

helpful. I think that some decisions

18:45

about closing borders, for example, uh

18:48

two people who are coming in from areas where they were

18:50

concerns, we're very very

18:52

useful. I was very

18:54

concerned when I heard that he was proposing

18:57

that we opened everything up. I

19:00

he's served because I think that would be too soon. But

19:02

he's now back off and

19:05

and I'm very appreciative that he's done that. I think

19:07

that's important. Why

19:09

do you think people did not take

19:12

the potential threat seriously? In

19:14

this kind of work, you're a victim of your own success.

19:17

If you're proactive, if you prevent an

19:19

outbreak from taking hold, then

19:22

nobody really knows about it. You've been

19:24

successful, but there's no you know,

19:26

it's not like you store up goodwill

19:28

and resources so that you'd be ready for the next

19:30

one. The feeling therefore

19:33

is that it's really not going to happen, and people

19:35

become somewhat complacent. After

19:38

nine eleven with the anthrax

19:40

attacks, there was a lot of interest in

19:42

jump starting the biological research

19:45

that we do into emerging infectious agents

19:47

and bio defense in general, and

19:50

there was a program set up which is one of the

19:52

first places I worked with Larry Brilliant

19:55

closely. It's something called the National bio Surveillance

19:58

Advisory Subcommittee's a very long name,

20:00

but our objective was to try

20:02

to figure out how prepared we were to

20:05

get the information needed so that we would

20:07

be able to respond in real time in

20:09

the event or emergency. One

20:11

of the things we learned and that was established

20:13

under under George Bush

20:16

was that UM, there was a lot

20:18

of duplication within the government,

20:21

we could become more efficient and more

20:23

effective if we were to synchronize

20:25

the integrated efforts. And

20:27

then the second version of

20:29

that which was under Obama, I shared with

20:31

the Jeffrey Engel from North

20:34

Carolina who was in the Department

20:36

of Health. There that group

20:38

came out with a very similar set of recommendations

20:40

to the first group and UM

20:43

and then that committee was disbanded and

20:46

to my knowledge it's not been reconvened,

20:48

and I don't know that ever will be convened. So

20:52

without that committee in

20:54

place in the White House providing real

20:56

time advice to the

20:58

people who need to make decisions, it's very difficult

21:00

to see how we're going to get out of this. When

21:03

we have financial crisis,

21:05

we have a fit right which responds

21:08

and tries to make decisions and has some autonomy.

21:11

We don't have that. In public health. We have very very

21:13

good people like UM,

21:15

you know at n A h h h S

21:17

and I think the Secretary

21:20

of h h S is also excellent, but

21:23

they are purely advisory and if

21:25

people don't listen to them, UH,

21:28

then there is a there's a risk and

21:30

in this case, a price to be paid. Scott,

21:33

I thought we might explore the

21:36

behavior of this virus through

21:38

your film. Matt Damon, who

21:41

is the protagonist, is

21:43

immune to this. If I'm

21:46

immune, can't you use my blood to cure

21:48

this? Blood serums can take

21:50

a long time to make and are very expensive. But

21:52

the good news here is that you're not going to get

21:54

sick. Tell me how you

21:57

were able to establish him as a character

21:59

and why that was so important to

22:01

the plot of the film. Um. Well,

22:03

he's Matt Damon and nobody wants to see him

22:06

die. Um, So that part was easy.

22:08

No, there you go. You're going all Hollywood

22:11

on us, Scott. One

22:13

of the things that he and I discussed

22:15

is that humans are all very

22:18

different, and we're seeing it with this virus

22:20

as well, and that people you

22:22

know who have underlying conditions

22:24

may have one experience, people who are of a

22:26

certain age may have

22:28

another. UM, And

22:31

that you know in the film,

22:33

Matt's character is exposed um,

22:36

but doesn't get sick. Um.

22:39

And I think that that's an important

22:41

thing for us to remember at this moment

22:44

in in time, is that

22:46

you know that humans have seen

22:49

pandemics before and that, you

22:51

know, we survive and we have remarkable

22:53

immune systems. Um.

22:56

You know, I think that

22:58

that that's something that people should

23:01

celebrate. We're we're pretty

23:04

you know, incredible animals.

23:06

Everyone has a different experience,

23:08

and just as in history there's

23:11

a typhoid mary um

23:13

who can spread a disease, there

23:15

are also individuals who seem to

23:18

be resistant and we can learn quite a bit from

23:20

them. Dr Lipkoln there are Matt

23:22

Damon's running around who

23:25

are seemed to be immune to this virus

23:28

UM. I think that as we learn more about

23:31

this pandemic, we're

23:33

going to find that the majority of people who

23:35

are infected have only mild

23:38

disease or no apparent disease whatsoever,

23:41

and there are ways in which we can sort this

23:43

out. It's not going to help us in the short term,

23:46

but in the longer term I think it will.

23:48

I think what we're going to find is that the majority

23:50

of people who are infected with a virus don't

23:52

have symptoms or have only

23:55

mild symptoms of the disease. They

23:57

are nonetheless capable of infecting other

23:59

people, particularly people who are

24:01

vulnerable because they have underlying medical

24:03

conditions. Obesity,

24:05

hypertension, diabetes, or

24:08

they simply happen to be older. Right,

24:11

and if you're a smoker, very

24:13

good time to stop. Well.

24:16

I've heard of cases where

24:18

seemingly healthy people who haven't

24:20

smoked for decades are

24:23

succumbing to this disease, or people

24:25

who have never smoked in the first place.

24:28

Um, have you been able

24:30

to understand why somebody

24:32

healthy in their thirties or forties seems

24:35

to be affected? Is that the level of virus

24:38

they're coming into contact with or

24:40

could it be an underlying condition

24:42

they just don't know about. I

24:45

think either of those is possible. I mean,

24:47

there aren't people who probably do

24:49

get a larger dose of virus than others. Uh,

24:52

And they're probably people who are even

24:54

a compromised but don't realize it, either

24:57

because they're not getting sufficient sleep,

25:00

or because they're malnourished, or there's something

25:02

about which they're not aware. There

25:04

may also be genetic factors that we don't

25:06

yet understand. All of this

25:09

is understudy now in

25:12

many institutions. We

25:14

should say it's somewhat of a cruel

25:16

irony that you yourself dr

25:19

lipkin as you stifle yet another

25:21

cough has been you've been diagnosed

25:24

with COVID nineteen. How

25:26

do you think you got it? And how are

25:28

you doing well?

25:30

There? There is a concern initially

25:33

because we do work with the virus in our laboratory,

25:35

that I might have become infected

25:37

there, but in fact the virus work

25:41

is not something I had been anywhere near UH

25:44

for several weeks, and

25:47

we didn't even open the virus

25:49

that we're using as a sample to grow the stocks

25:51

or using for our work now until after I

25:54

had already left the LAMB. So my case was a

25:56

community acquired I

25:58

traveled through China without any difficulty,

26:02

never never got infected there,

26:04

and I got infected here in the community. This

26:07

is now a community acquired disease

26:10

and it's very easy for anyone to get

26:12

it. And one of the reasons

26:14

why I talked about the fact that

26:16

I was infected was to

26:18

make the point that if I can get infected,

26:20

knowing what I do, know, anybody

26:23

can get infected. This is a disease that

26:25

there's a risk to us all. Can you

26:27

tell us what the symptoms have been

26:30

for you with coronavirus.

26:33

Yes, I had an upper respiratory

26:35

attract infection that was not COVID that

26:38

proceeded this UH, and I

26:40

was recovering from that. I felt like I was

26:42

doing quite well, and then suddenly I

26:45

developed a sort of a nonproductive cough

26:47

and a fever and then a splitting

26:49

headache. And I never got headaches,

26:52

and I had that, and I knew that something

26:54

was different. So I went into my UH,

26:58

not into the laboratory, but I drove to

27:00

the laboratory and I took swabs

27:02

and I handed them off to my team

27:05

because we have tests for all

27:07

of these things. And they called me up and they

27:09

said, you have an enormous amount

27:11

of virus and so far one of the highest

27:13

viral loads we've seen. So

27:17

I've been recovering from that, and

27:21

I wish everybody, well, this is not something

27:24

that you're gonna want to get. It's

27:26

tough, particularly in my UH people

27:29

my vintage. You're older, but you

27:31

are you are on the men because some

27:33

people say they feel better and then they

27:37

their health sort of goes down

27:39

downward, and then they feel better again.

27:41

So where are you on this side of day

27:44

eleven? So I'm I feel like

27:46

I'm truly on the mend

27:48

at this point. It's it's a slow process.

27:50

But yesterday I walked.

27:52

Two days ago, I walked a mile, yesterday

27:55

a mile and a half. Today I'm going to do two. And

27:57

I'm going to get back into get

27:59

back into shape as quickly as I can. There's

28:01

an enormous amount of work to do coming

28:05

up. How our pandemic nightmare

28:07

might end. That's right after this spoiler

28:19

alert everyone. By the end of Contagion,

28:22

the heroic scientists working against

28:24

the clock are able to develop a vaccine

28:27

for the movie's fictional pathogen called

28:30

M e v one. And let me tell

28:32

you, by the end you'll need

28:34

a little good news. This vaccine

28:36

as a result of the courage and

28:39

perseverance of a remarkable

28:41

few, we

28:43

shall now begin the drawing.

28:46

John. Yeah, first,

28:51

M e v one vaccination.

28:54

Are those people born on March

28:57

I almost cried at the end for my

29:00

appreciation of the

29:02

public health system, but of science and

29:04

medicine in general. When you see

29:06

those people standing in line

29:09

waiting for the vaccine, it reminded

29:11

me of when I was, I think, in kindergarten

29:13

and they used those little sugar cubes.

29:16

Um I think was it was that a polio

29:18

vaccine I was getting at the time. Well,

29:21

I remember that very well, these little

29:24

pink sugar cubes that they

29:26

gave to all the kids. Do

29:28

you think this will end with the vaccine?

29:31

Do you think it will end with these

29:33

drugs that help people

29:35

once they've been infected. How do you see

29:37

this whole saga ending. The

29:40

vaccine is going to be the definitive end

29:43

for this challenge to public

29:45

health. During the interim, we're

29:47

going to be able to chip away it's some of the morbidding

29:49

mortality using plasma

29:52

therapy and drugs that are in the process

29:54

of being discovered and developed.

29:58

In the short term, the key is going to be the

30:01

social distancing and

30:03

testing that allow us to ensure that

30:05

that the isolation is working. And

30:08

that's really where I think the folks, the

30:10

folks I need to be now on the social

30:12

distancing and

30:15

and the use of plasma therapy

30:17

to treat people who are sick or exposed while

30:20

we continue to work on the vaccine. And

30:22

I want to just recap what

30:25

Tony Fauci continually says, which

30:27

is that the vaccine is not around

30:29

the corner. It's six eighteen

30:31

months. So this is

30:33

going to be a marathon, and the

30:35

American people need to be prepared for that

30:38

and rise to it like they have for

30:40

every other challenge we've had since our inception.

30:44

Do you believe that once people are infected,

30:46

they will have immunity

30:48

to the virus or is that a big

30:50

question mark still? I think

30:52

it's a I think it is a question mark there.

30:55

The evidence that we have from very

30:58

small animal studies with non in

31:00

primates, with Reese's monkeys

31:02

is that there is at least part at

31:04

least there's immunity in the short term for

31:06

a few months. We don't know how long

31:08

it's gonna last. And because it's

31:11

a very small study, I wouldn't speculate

31:13

beyond that point except to say

31:16

that I believe that there will be immunity

31:18

to this particular virus, but it's never going

31:20

to leave us completely. We're gonna

31:22

have to deal with it on an annual basis. It's

31:25

going to be like measles, and

31:27

we need to think about, you know, getting

31:30

people ready for the idea that

31:32

we are going to have to do vaccinations, because,

31:34

as you know, there's been a there's

31:36

a population which is not insubstantial

31:39

in this country that doesn't believe in vaccinations.

31:43

Scott, what about you, how

31:45

do you hope this will end, and any

31:48

final thoughts from you from

31:50

a screenwriter's point of view were still

31:52

very much in the first act of this of

31:55

this particular story,

31:57

you know, the next two acts.

32:00

Um. You know, I'm not I'm

32:02

not going to write anymore than any

32:04

other person in our society. We're all going to

32:06

write the rest of this movie together. And

32:09

if we listen to experts and

32:12

if we really can overcome

32:15

our tribalism and understand

32:17

our obligation to each other, it

32:19

can be an incredibly unifying moment,

32:22

you know. I mean it may sound

32:24

very corny, but you

32:26

know, our love for each other is

32:29

one of the things that we can do to

32:32

help beat this um. And

32:34

if people take their responsibility

32:37

to their fellow citizens seriously, the

32:39

movie has one kind of an ending

32:42

um And I think you know, we're

32:44

going to have to turn our society on

32:47

slowly. It's not going to be a light

32:49

switch change at the end

32:51

of April, and people are going to have to listen

32:53

again about what sectors

32:56

can slowly come back um

32:59

and get more robust than others. Are

33:01

going to need to spend time figuring

33:03

out ways, and with those ways, there

33:06

will be other you know, there'll be responsibilities

33:08

and things we have to do. Um. So

33:11

that's that's the version

33:13

of the story, UM,

33:16

that I really hope happens. Um.

33:19

You know, we have everything we need to

33:21

make that story happen. You

33:23

know. The other the other version I really

33:25

don't want to contemplate. One

33:28

of the things that Scott has done is

33:30

a project that um we

33:32

talked about that's just coming on, it's

33:34

just going online, was a series

33:37

of vignettes because we're trying to educate people

33:40

using contagion as a tool as

33:43

our way of flattening the curve. Well

33:45

tell us about that, Scott. One

33:48

of the things that um,

33:51

we all felt that the heat at the at the end

33:53

of the movie, you know, both

33:55

myself and Stephen and the cast,

33:59

was we really really understood

34:01

what public health meant and

34:03

that you know, it's our responsibility

34:06

to each other and we don't really

34:08

ever talk about that that this is actually

34:11

one of the opportunities we have

34:14

as citizens to work on a problem

34:16

together and to express

34:19

our concern, our compassion, and our

34:21

love for each other. And it's really simple.

34:23

It means, you know, when

34:25

you take care of yourself and when you're responsible,

34:28

you're taking care of the people around you. Um.

34:32

So. I had had a conversation

34:35

with Larry Brilliant

34:37

a couple of weeks ago, and he

34:40

said to me, do you think there's any way you could

34:42

get the cast together and

34:45

and maybe right um some public service

34:47

announcements because the movie,

34:50

you know, has had a lot of traction lately. And

34:53

everybody in the cast who I've reached out

34:55

to so far, um has

34:58

been eager to film themselves

35:01

at home. Nobody has any makeup

35:03

on um. Everybody is

35:05

sheltering in place. Hi,

35:08

everybody, Uh, this is Matt Damon.

35:10

Um. So. A few years ago,

35:12

a bunch of us did this movie called Contagion, which

35:14

we've noticed is creeping its

35:16

way back up on the charts on iTunes

35:19

for obvious reasons, given what we're all living

35:22

through right now. Um and So, the Mailment

35:24

school of things as fundamental as washing

35:27

your hands. The way so it works

35:30

is that one end of the so molecule

35:33

finds with the water and

35:36

the other end finds to the

35:38

grease on your hands. What social

35:41

distancing really means. It

35:43

means stay six ft away

35:45

from another person. It means not

35:47

gathering in groups, and it

35:49

means staying home or sheltering in place,

35:52

if that's what government officials are telling you

35:54

to do. About how a pandemic

35:57

um is everywhere, but it's not everywhere

36:00

once. So if it's not where you live

36:02

today, you can bet

36:04

that that's going to change. And

36:06

if you don't know anyone who's sick yet,

36:09

you can also bet that that will change as well.

36:12

So, uh, we all

36:14

self record, you know, they self recorded

36:16

these scripts that I wrote, and

36:19

they are online at UM

36:21

the Mailman School of Public Health at Columbia

36:24

University. You know, every

36:26

day, because you

36:29

know, some people know that that I wrote

36:31

this film, I get emails with

36:34

question marks, and I get sent theories

36:37

of where this came from and conspiracy

36:40

theories and theories of cures,

36:42

and you know, it becomes

36:44

something for everyone to utilize

36:47

for a host of other agendas.

36:50

UM that you know, I

36:53

think most of the time my inclination

36:55

in the world is to say, you know, people

36:57

are allowed to believe whatever they want to

36:59

believe. It's not that simple, right

37:01

now. You know, when people don't believe

37:03

in science and they question,

37:06

um, you know, the the expertise

37:10

of people like like Anthony

37:12

Fauci and Ian or Larry

37:14

brilliant, and they cast dispersions

37:17

on them. It isn't it

37:20

isn't a small problem. You know, these are

37:22

the people who know the most about it, and because

37:24

it is a novel virus, there's

37:26

information that they don't yet have that takes

37:29

time. And it

37:31

scares me um beyond

37:33

almost anything if we start

37:36

to lose our respect and

37:38

our confidence in

37:41

in the empirical method and in

37:43

science, because it is the best tool

37:45

we have right now to get us through this. You

37:48

know, science scientists and experts

37:51

in these moments are our heroes.

37:59

You can check out all of those contagion

38:01

inspired p s a s by the way,

38:03

by going to Control the Contagion dot

38:06

org. Those p s a s were written

38:08

by Scott Burns and created by the

38:10

Columbia Mailman School of Public Health,

38:13

and we encourage you to spread the word on

38:15

your social media channels. You can

38:17

use the hashtag control the

38:19

Contagion. I'll be doing the same,

38:22

so make sure you follow me on Instagram,

38:24

Twitter, Facebook and all the rest.

38:27

Before we go, I wanted to leave you with a moment

38:29

of kindness. This one comes from

38:31

a listener named Suzanne Curry, who

38:34

shares how the St. John's church and

38:36

Barrington, Rhode Island is connecting

38:38

with his congregants during this time

38:41

of social distancing. They

38:43

had a virtual happy hour

38:45

last Thursday at five

38:47

o'clock and that was my mom's

38:50

first Zoom call. She's

38:53

eighty one years old and I helped her

38:55

with it. And then they have had

38:57

church virtually on days

39:00

at nine am. They were

39:03

broadcasting it live on Facebook.

39:05

And then they did a zoom

39:07

last Sunday and it was

39:09

very helpful. Thank

39:12

you so much, Susanne, and good for

39:14

your mom for getting on Zoom.

39:16

And you guys can keep sending your moments of

39:19

kindness or connection, the ones

39:21

that you've witnessed or experienced.

39:23

Just leave your name and a detailed message

39:25

at eight four four four seven nine

39:28

seven eight eight three. That's

39:30

eight four four four seven nine

39:33

seven eight eight three. You

39:35

can also email me at info

39:37

at Katie Currect dot com. Just put

39:40

kindness in the subject line and

39:43

that does it for this episode of Next Question.

39:46

To get the most accurate and up to date information

39:49

on the coronavirus and how to keep

39:51

you and your family say during this pandemic,

39:54

make sure you go to the CDC and

39:56

the World Health Organization websites.

39:58

You can also check out my morning newsletter,

40:01

Wake Up Hall, where we're diligently

40:03

reporting on the day's most pressing news.

40:06

You can subscribe to that at Katie

40:08

currek dot com. The

40:10

next few weeks maybe the hardest, as

40:12

the number of infections are expected to

40:14

peak. You can do your part by

40:16

staying home, keep washing

40:18

those hands, check in with neighbors

40:20

and loved ones from a safe distance

40:23

or virtually, of course, and

40:25

and stop touching your face days. I

40:28

know we can get through this together.

40:31

Until next time and my Next Question,

40:34

I'm Katie Couric. Thanks so much

40:36

for listening, and stay safe everyone,

40:41

Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production

40:43

of I Heart Radio and Katie Curreic Media.

40:46

The executive producers are Katie Kurik, Courtney

40:48

Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising

40:50

producer is Lauren Hansen. Our

40:52

show producer is Bethan Macaluso.

40:55

The associate producers are Emily Pinto and

40:57

Derek Clements. Editing by

41:00

Eric Clements, Dylan Fagin and Lowell

41:02

Berlante, mixing by Dylan

41:04

Fagan. Our researcher is Gabriel

41:07

Loser. For more information

41:09

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