0:06

Are you ready to jumpstart your next big

0:08

idea? Then welcome to

0:10

the niche pursuits podcast. It's

0:13

all about helping you find your niche, getting

0:15

the motivation and strategies you need and

0:18

growing your ideas into something real. Want

0:31

some insider tips on how you

0:33

can start your own profitable niche

0:35

community? Less as

0:37

being a true peer-to-peer

0:40

kind of knowledge sharing community and more like,

0:42

hey, let's just start by sharing what we

0:44

know and be able to have some conversations

0:46

with people in the process. And

0:49

a list of benefits to get you truly motivated.

0:51

You know, I would say you become the average of

0:53

the people you surround yourself with. And so I wanted

0:56

to surround myself with other people who were doing

0:58

the types of things we were doing so we could share

1:00

that knowledge and deals and various things. Like

1:02

I've had people get married for meeting at my

1:04

events. I've had hundreds of millions of dollars in

1:06

deals that have happened for people, being

1:09

part of the community, business partnerships, friendships.

1:11

So I was able, because of Rhodium, to

1:14

acquire that business for kind of mid-five

1:16

figures and grew it with

1:18

the support of the community and ended up

1:20

selling it for multiple seven figures. And when

1:22

you build relationships first, good things tend to

1:24

come as a byproduct. Get ready

1:27

for another inspiring episode of the

1:29

Knitch Pursuits podcast, this time with

1:31

Rhodium founder Chris Yates, bringing you

1:33

tips on building awesome communities. Before

1:38

we jump into the podcast, I wanted to

1:40

let you know that today's episode is sponsored

1:42

by Search Intelligence. Here's a short

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3:37

I welcome back to that it's Pursuits

3:39

podcast. My name is Jeff Bauman and

3:41

today we're joined by creates with rhodium

3:43

Chris Walker Bombard, Pay. An extra

3:45

have me Juri excited to chat. It's. Good

3:48

to have. You know it's funny because at a honors yet

3:50

obviously weren't talking about your development grow the rhodium and I

3:52

think a lot of things that come out of it as

3:54

it applies to the to lesser they're going to get a

3:56

lot out of what you have to share. We can work

3:58

and during agenda but. I noticed that

4:01

before you founded Rhodium you had

4:03

center a cup which we had

4:05

neat Ginsburg gone about provide year

4:07

ago so. I'm. A lot of

4:09

parallels your to some things you've already talked about

4:11

but I'm excited to hear your story him and

4:13

can learn from your welcome Mom woke up number

4:15

one to tell us what about yourself and you

4:17

know catches up to where the story starts for

4:20

today. Sounds. Good yeah so

4:22

I guess my the quick story for

4:24

me as I I started buying online

4:26

businesses after owning a digital marketing agency

4:28

and realizing that I was not building

4:31

anybody's as William real for businesses not

4:33

building assets and I can kind of

4:35

own and control as the started buying

4:37

online businesses this is like back to

4:39

of ninety of intense. Are built

4:41

up a portfolio and and of selling the

4:44

agency two thousand join the portfolio and and

4:46

ultimately that kind of led me. Feeling.

4:48

A little isolated, I live in Montana and

4:50

others. not that many people here that do what

4:52

I do for a living. So I wanted to

4:55

connect with others and ask Anna how Rhodium

4:57

ended up starting his rants when he twelve.

4:59

I decided to bring people together who were

5:01

doing when I was doing at a in person

5:03

events and do that in Vegas every year. But

5:05

do it now for like eleven years results

5:07

and that actually came before Centric as well.

5:09

I just justice mixer we retreat that that

5:11

com it. But yeah, so that's kind of like

5:14

that's the beginning stages of Rhodium. You.

5:16

Know is it is because you met me.

5:19

I mean I've i run an agency myself

5:21

and I now a days even have an

5:23

ad agency with the with every spread out

5:25

over the world can be able bit lonely

5:27

ah and then obviously growing your own, your

5:29

own web sites or building your own assets.

5:31

His arm is a digital jeremy. How.

5:33

Did you? I guess in the beginning of rhodium, how

5:36

did you have an Id or a sense that people

5:38

wanted community? Was it something that you are hearing feedback

5:40

on as you can roll the dice and take a

5:42

chance on it. I was more

5:44

rolling the dice and taking a chance on

5:46

it and so what we did. I have

5:48

a business partner at the time I sense

5:50

bought out and and us but I you

5:52

know get some experience in the event space

5:54

and so I was able to. Ah,

5:57

let him convince me that it was a good idea and

5:59

and for us, you know, when I thought about it, two

6:02

things. One, just being able to talk to other people who

6:04

were doing what I was doing, be able to share that

6:06

knowledge was one. Two is, you know,

6:09

we actually kind

6:12

of very meta, we bought a

6:15

business, a online business that was

6:17

teaching people how to buy businesses.

6:19

So with that, it came with

6:21

a email list and kind of

6:23

a forum and things like that. And

6:26

so we were like, Hey, how can we, you know,

6:28

kind of expand this and continue to, I guess,

6:30

build our name and awareness of who we were,

6:33

as well as maybe, you know,

6:35

that would lead to some deal flow or

6:37

some other interesting opportunities, being kind

6:39

of, I guess, a connector within the space.

6:42

And we didn't really see anybody that was really doing

6:44

that yet. And so we figured, Hey, it's worth the

6:46

shot. Let's try it. I

6:48

feel like community or building communities is coming

6:50

back in vogue a bit, or I'm not

6:52

sure if it ever went out. Style isn't

6:54

really my thing, as you can tell. So,

6:57

but, excuse the style reference.

6:59

But I mean, from the beginning, like you were

7:01

basically building a community. And

7:04

in doing that, maybe before, like a lot of people

7:06

listening might think, well, we'll build the website first, or

7:08

we'll build the brand first, or we'll build the

7:11

traffic first, we'll build the interest

7:13

first, and then add the

7:15

community. Maybe touch on the process

7:17

you went through to build and validate

7:20

the community, because it doesn't sound like

7:22

it followed necessarily that path. Yeah,

7:25

you know, I think back on it, we

7:28

had that initial list from the business

7:30

that we'd acquired the training business, we

7:32

had our experience of actually being in

7:34

the trenches acquiring and growing these businesses.

7:36

And so, at a minimum, we

7:39

had the ability to bring people together to

7:41

learn from kind of our experiences. And, and,

7:43

you know, it really did start

7:45

out less as being a true,

7:47

you know, peer to peer kind of knowledge

7:50

sharing community and more like, hey, let's just

7:52

start by sharing what we know, and be

7:54

able to have some conversations with people in

7:56

the process. So I think there's something to

7:58

be said about if you know, I kind of think about positioning

8:01

wise, if you're gonna

8:03

build a community, you can position it like, I

8:05

know nothing and I'm getting smart people around me

8:08

to be able to help one another and all

8:10

the boats or the rising type of salt boats

8:12

type thing, right? So that would be like a

8:14

positioning that I think anybody can do if they're

8:16

still, they don't have a lot of experience but

8:19

want to surround themselves with people. The

8:21

other would be like, hey, I have some experience

8:23

and I'm willing to share. I'm not necessarily the

8:25

expert, but like I have some knowledge to share

8:27

and this can spark conversations to get other people

8:30

who are also in the trenches doing this work

8:32

to share along with us and be more of

8:34

a peer to peer model. And

8:36

then the third would be more of like the guru

8:38

model, think like Tony Robbins where, they

8:40

are really there to see him and their community

8:42

is a big part of it, but like he

8:44

is the show, right? For

8:46

me personally, I was sort of in that,

8:49

the first of the two buckets when I

8:51

started because I didn't really want to be

8:53

necessarily like any kind of guru, definitely

8:55

was more behind the scenes kind of person, but I love the

8:57

idea. I would say you become the

9:00

average of the people you surround yourself with. And so

9:02

I wanted to surround myself with other people who were

9:04

doing the types of things we were doing so we could

9:06

share that knowledge and deals and various things. So

9:09

maybe like catch us up on where Rhodium is today,

9:12

what it looks like, and then we can kind of

9:14

get into the stories that unfolded. Cause I mean, like

9:16

you said, it's 11 years old. So I'm guessing there's

9:18

quite a bit to the story as you've grown it.

9:21

Yeah, so I started

9:23

it out, like I said, teaching

9:26

people kind of doing what I was doing and then

9:28

people after the first event or two were like, hey,

9:30

how can we stay connected between events? So

9:32

I started an online forum because that was what the

9:34

community was asking for. And

9:37

over the years, I actually, I

9:39

do things with the community that most sane people

9:41

wouldn't do. So I actually meet everybody on

9:43

like a Zoom call typically before inviting them in

9:45

just to make sure it's a good fit on

9:47

both sides. And that actually

9:49

has, that investment upfront has been

9:52

really key because as the saying goes,

9:54

one bad apple can ruin the bunch.

9:56

And if you're not careful with communities,

9:58

you can get people who are, were in

10:00

there to just take and self-promote and things like

10:02

that. So I worked really hard to kind of

10:04

clear that out. So that's been a really key

10:07

point along the way was just meeting those people,

10:09

finding out what their needs were, getting

10:11

them involved and engaged in that community. And

10:14

then, yeah, the business model as

10:16

it stands today is that Facebook group, I don't

10:19

charge for it. It's like, yeah, there's about a

10:21

thousand members in there and that's really grown through

10:23

word of mouth. And then I

10:25

do an annual in-person event. I

10:28

found that when you take people who

10:30

have met offline and then take them

10:32

to an online community, that pairing is

10:34

super important to build that, at

10:37

least that core group, who really kind of understand

10:39

one another. They have trust with one another and

10:41

things like that. So kind of combining

10:43

those two things in various formats have been

10:45

really key as well in addition to the

10:47

interviewing that I do. And

10:50

then what I do to monetize it, and it's cool to

10:52

get paid to do something I would do for free. It's

10:54

kind of how I think about it, but I do, it

10:57

helps to justify the time to actually make money from this. So I

10:59

charge for the in-person event and

11:02

the model with in-person events, usually you either

11:04

have kind of attendees pay for things, so

11:06

they would pay for a ticket and that

11:09

kind of covers your costs and lets

11:11

you make money or you have sponsors or you

11:13

have some combination of the two. I'm definitely more

11:15

heavy on the attendee, kind of funded with a

11:17

little bit of sponsorship. And

11:20

then coming out of COVID, I

11:22

realized that having your business built around

11:24

a single in-person event that happens once

11:27

a year is not necessarily the most,

11:30

what's the word? Like you

11:33

have a lot of eggs in one basket to

11:35

put it. You can ask them back though baby.

11:37

Yeah, so I started something called Rodeo Remote, which

11:39

is kind of like a mastermind format where

11:42

we group people together based on their

11:44

businesses and help match make and things like that.

11:46

And we do regular Zoom meetings and have a

11:48

separate channel and stuff like that. So that's

11:50

nice because it adds a recurring revenue component

11:53

to the community and allows me to justify,

11:56

I think spending more time to help those people who are part of it and

11:58

have a little bit more infrastructure around it. and all of that. It's

12:01

a great model because literally, I love it because

12:05

I've had people get married from meeting at my

12:07

events. I've had hundreds of millions of dollars in

12:09

deals that have happened for people being

12:11

part of the community, business partnerships, friendships.

12:14

So I get to challenge myself as well. It

12:17

kind of hits every element from being able

12:19

to pay bills all the way to making

12:21

an impact on people's lives. So I love

12:23

doing it. What's

12:27

the avatar of the typical, say, attendee or

12:29

a person who comes to the

12:31

weekend event? Yeah, so it's

12:33

gonna be one of four main business

12:35

models, e-commerce, SaaS, content

12:39

slash media, and services. So all digital

12:41

business owners, typically they're owner operated, they're

12:43

running a profitable company, revenues anywhere from

12:45

like high six to mid nine figures

12:48

with our typical member kind of low

12:50

to mid seven. Okay,

12:52

good. Yeah, wow. Same, probably

12:54

the similar four buckets of interviews

12:58

we have here in the podcast in many ways. And

13:01

I will say, I haven't kept

13:03

track because I never really know, but I know that

13:05

we've interviewed a lot of people from

13:08

the Rhodium community here in this

13:10

podcast, different success stories or different

13:12

business models that attend either the

13:15

weekend or online

13:17

and those sorts of things. So it's clearly

13:19

attracting successful people. Yeah, this has

13:21

been a fantastic member of the community

13:24

for years. And I don't know if he told his

13:26

long tail pro story and how Rhodium fit into all that,

13:28

but that was kind of a cool little thread. Maybe

13:30

you could ask him about it at some point. I

13:33

will have to, I will have to. You know,

13:35

Spencer took a little vacation here from the podcast,

13:37

but now we do a weekly session on the

13:40

weekly news. And

13:42

that's where I get to ask Spencer

13:44

questions live that will make them

13:46

tell a good story. So I'll throw that at him. So

13:50

why don't we go back to how you've grown this? And

13:52

I know you have had, you kind of teased it a

13:54

bit, right? Like there, I didn't know about the wedding by

13:56

the way, or the marriages, but I do know about all

13:59

the deals that have happened. and

14:01

certainly some of those stories. If you take us back

14:03

and let's start back at the beginning and how you've

14:05

grown this, but really what it's led to for you.

14:07

And I think that's what I wanna encourage everyone to

14:09

listen into. I don't have all of

14:12

the script here in front of me, but I just have

14:14

a couple talking points about what Chris is getting to. And

14:16

I think that hearing what Chris is

14:18

gonna talk about and the threads in between it, the

14:20

value of community and how that can

14:22

play a role in your business, that's to me

14:24

the meat and potatoes and the really, really intriguing

14:26

part of your story that I think you're gonna

14:28

get into here. Yeah, and I can

14:30

give you the headline. So in addition

14:33

to being just an awesome business to

14:35

run, it's given me some interesting opportunities

14:37

as well. So you mentioned Centurica. So

14:39

I was able, because of Rodeum, to

14:41

acquire that business for kind of mid

14:43

five figures and grew it

14:45

with the support of the community and ended up

14:47

selling it for multiple seven figures. And all of

14:50

that was a result of me first

14:52

making the decision to build community around me. So

14:55

we can dive right into Centurica if you like, or if

14:57

you want me to give more details on

14:59

how we got to that point, let me know. Yeah,

15:03

I mean, let's pick up where Centurica kind of

15:05

comes into the fray. We had

15:07

Nate on last year. Obviously he's the one who

15:09

purchased it, I believe from you, if I just

15:11

do my timelines right here. But I mean, talk

15:13

about what it looks like at

15:16

the start there, but also, I mean, I'm just curious, what

15:18

does it look like to have a community where these kind

15:20

of opportunities can come up? Yeah,

15:22

I mean, it's cool, because I work hard

15:25

in the community to build a

15:27

culture of giving and paying it

15:29

forward. And so, when

15:32

you build relationships first, good things tend to come as

15:34

a byproduct of it. That's kind of how I think

15:36

about it. And so after doing

15:38

the event for a few years, one of

15:40

the original founder of Centurica, which was not

15:42

me, I bought it from him, he

15:45

had come out to do a talk at Rhodium, he'd been

15:47

a member of the community, and he

15:49

was ready to kind of, like

15:51

using a baseball analogy, he saw Centurica as like,

15:53

this is like a base hit for me, And

15:56

he was looking to do like a home run, and he was looking

15:58

for really high scale business that he could do. In three like

16:00

yes, I for me to can kind of move on

16:02

from Centrica and there's two people in the world. I

16:04

was salvaged. June and Chris, you're one of themselves. We

16:06

ended up our he approached me and we came up

16:09

with a deal that there was kind of a no

16:11

brainer for me. And. If you think

16:13

about it, the fact was that I had

16:15

a built in community there who already had.

16:18

Once. You see an affinity

16:20

towards buying online businesses

16:22

and. Since. You're ago when it

16:24

is as a business is and in if people

16:26

have a listen to nade it's it's a due

16:28

diligence company so when somebody is buying a in

16:30

online business or go to censure got to have

16:32

him look over the financial to make sure they're

16:35

legit to really understand the i'm the traffic in

16:37

the revenue and make sure that all sustainable so.

16:39

Real. Seat analogy. You know, like the

16:41

property inspector in a real estate, right?

16:43

So. It made sense that if I

16:45

had this kind of. Ah had a

16:48

little bit of a reputation in the buying

16:50

and selling community. I had this captive audience

16:52

and road young and for me to buy

16:54

a company like Centrica that would be supportive

16:56

and you know kind of help people make

16:59

safer decisions in their in their purchases. Made.

17:01

A lot of sense. So I'm. That's.

17:04

The first unfair advantage. The fact that

17:06

I had built their reputation, The fact

17:08

that I had. ah yeah, but there

17:10

was ship with the original founders and

17:12

trick us. He. Had trust in me he saw

17:14

you know that I had a platform. I was

17:16

one of the two people that he was willing

17:18

to others that as you can it was kind

17:20

of still has baby a little benny want to

17:22

make sure it went to it to somebody get

17:24

himself had I not put myself in that position

17:26

that the old never what happens. Is.

17:29

Interest in Erie? Talk about that. I mean he?

17:31

Do you think that that had more to do

17:33

with the fact that you are in the community

17:35

or the fact that you were running the community

17:37

if you know what I mean. Yeah.

17:40

I I mean both. And

17:42

so it's I don't know that neither works

17:44

because I've seen members of my community have

17:46

similar things happen because they're and rhodium. It's

17:49

like some was like you have an instant

17:51

trust factor you know, like if if you

17:53

are I was an in fraternities and stuff.

17:55

But like I had about I have this

17:57

idea in my head that like oh you.

18:00

Also an opportunity instant trust into instant reports

18:02

and then you can be true. like maybe

18:04

the same with nice pursuits audience were oh

18:06

you Also was the you know Jared on

18:09

on his podcast you know in Singapore and

18:11

Citrus right? So so I think that's true.

18:13

They're adding specifically the fact that I was

18:16

in that position and I had organized this

18:18

this community and built that relationship. I'm you

18:20

know I. I think. I. Didn't think

18:22

it was the only way that it would

18:24

have happened, but I think it it definitely

18:27

helped because you know, like. I

18:29

think he he signed me somebody who put themselves

18:31

out there, who who had a reputation that he

18:33

would just go screw that screw up with. This

18:35

is totally and you know kind way up do

18:38

whatever I could to make a buck or whatever.

18:40

So I think there was. I. Had

18:42

a track record that he could publicly see as

18:44

I think I was hopeful that another was required.

18:47

No I in the reason I ask as

18:50

a cat connecting some of the dots you

18:52

know like the dots of you invest seen

18:54

up in his community by you know as

18:56

one example interviewing people before they come in

18:58

and join right like there were there. willing,

19:00

ready and able to give you their money.

19:02

But you're saying let me you know can

19:04

interview get a personal connection? establish that. I.

19:07

Am just hearing threads of that in your community,

19:09

building their purpose. and then what comes out of

19:11

the back of purpose comes with. An

19:13

opportunity that perfectly aligned with with with what you do.

19:16

It's interesting to see that that's. The.

19:18

Aside came from the community you built almost.

19:21

Yeah. Absolutely it's true. And it's

19:23

hard. when we talked about before

19:25

the show how communities are. Hard.

19:28

To justify when you just look at the

19:30

roşia directly because it is very much that

19:32

butterfly effect that you just can't predict Like

19:35

food. A known that this one person that

19:37

I would have met ah I want to

19:39

my communities you know that they would a

19:41

went to a really good outcome I'm you

19:44

know and. Who. Knows that the business

19:46

partner that I ended up working with to

19:48

start you know, road Yemen and all that.

19:50

like that all these things would come from

19:52

it. so it is truly. More.

19:54

challenging to to make that but yeah so

19:56

mean if you can make at least break

19:58

even and us knowing that these opportunities will

20:00

come when you build community. I think it's great. The

20:02

other interesting thing I think about communities

20:04

in terms of I

20:07

guess connecting the dots is

20:10

that like

20:12

community is It

20:15

isn't like a tactic or a hack like

20:18

humans at our fundamental core need

20:20

to feel accepted and to be

20:22

part of the tribe right and

20:25

that creates so many like brand

20:28

Connections and the more I think over

20:30

time as we see more and more

20:32

commoditized for instance content publishing or commoditized

20:34

products in e-commerce Like being

20:36

able to have a real connection with the

20:38

company behind it Is going

20:40

to be a real competitive advantage and I think community

20:43

is one of the best ways to do that whether

20:45

that's an online Community or in person events or whatever.

20:47

So yeah, it is it's an interesting

20:49

piece that you're bringing up Maybe

20:52

it to double down on that point

20:54

you just made or some of the points

20:56

you've made recently A lot

20:58

of people listening. I'm gonna just try to speak on behalf

21:00

of some of the audience I feel listening right now are

21:03

seen, you know 2023

21:05

was rough in that maybe a

21:07

channel of traffic or growth they

21:09

counted on Has changed a lot

21:11

this year and many years I could be saying

21:14

that about every year for the past decade You

21:16

know as things have changed on social media with

21:18

organic traffic and whatnot but certainly this year we've

21:20

had landscape changes for a lot of people

21:22

in terms of how organic traffic is Distribute

21:25

a lot of people are thinking about

21:27

other ways to generate traffic to generate

21:30

potential revenue down the road to generate

21:33

Interest eyeballs right community might be on

21:35

the table Like how does someone evaluate

21:37

it and in terms of an ROI

21:39

position because you spoke to how hard

21:41

it is to justify The ROI

21:43

but when you can't predict that you're gonna meet someone

21:46

whose business you're gonna buy Two or three

21:48

years into starting a community. You can't justify Maybe

21:51

Starting to continue without that ROI component without the

21:53

return investment planned out But It's so impossible to

21:55

predict who you're gonna meet. How Do you like?

21:57

Do you have any tips for dual? To

22:00

have used to evaluate whether can really make

22:02

sense for them as a decision going forward,

22:04

you know. And just to

22:07

clarify. If. They were going to

22:09

start a communities around their brand. Yeah,

22:11

I'm so. What I would

22:14

say The first thing that I would think about

22:16

his can I get five people. From.

22:18

My customer, less, my leads.

22:20

Whatever. Who. Are actually

22:22

interested in engaging? In.

22:25

Some form of community and it doesn't even have

22:27

to be. This is gonna be a thousand first

22:29

and community vision it can be. Hey let's get

22:31

together once a quarter and Chef. But

22:34

but community in my opinion, really

22:36

starts with a core group of

22:38

people who are engaged enough. To.

22:41

A car have a conversation with one

22:43

another so from an our ally perspective

22:45

you really just justifying his the time.

22:47

Worth meeting these people once a month

22:50

or once a quarter. And off

22:52

to justify the time and I'm spending

22:54

on doing that right. You.

22:57

Have a lot of options that can open up

22:59

if that assumption that these people want to get

23:01

together and share knowledge and experience is is actually

23:03

true, right? When. With but like

23:05

let's say, we had five people and they were

23:07

maybe your best customers. You're in are you do

23:09

at your preto principle. you look at your top

23:12

twenty percent of customers. Who. Are generating a

23:14

percent of revenue and say hey, I want to put

23:16

together. You. Know they get a customer

23:18

mastermind were or are you know focus group

23:20

or whatever you want to call it that

23:22

you know benefit to them. I want to

23:24

connect you with other people are really successful

23:26

with my products service except rabbit that you

23:28

do. Then. What you end up

23:30

having indices happened to me so many times as.

23:33

You. Get to learn those new tactics and

23:36

how people are reacting to. Ah these

23:38

these big you know see changes have

23:40

a idol that kind of stuff like.

23:43

You. Get to talk about those problems you don't

23:45

feel like you're so isolated to. There's like

23:47

an emotional are why Because of that. But

23:49

the tactical is. Oh, I just learned

23:51

something from person A that I can then

23:53

apply to my business. And

23:55

you as the leader of this group.

23:58

You. Can also asked about how you can. Prove

24:00

as a business you can get that real

24:02

feedback from your power users and implement that

24:04

to make your business better whether it's customer

24:07

service or or other opportunity to things like

24:09

that. So. If. You just started

24:11

with five people and all it was for

24:13

you as an ability to talk directly to

24:15

your customers on a regular basis. Your.

24:17

Best Customers you want more of That alone

24:20

in my mind will more than justify any

24:22

are wide you get from the benefits you

24:24

get from. Insights. That they're

24:26

giving you are and lessons learned. With conversations

24:28

and problems that they have you can maybe

24:30

help them solve. I

24:33

just sparked my memory. I think back

24:35

to my last company which of the

24:37

a photo editing company and I am.

24:39

I started a group of people. Basic

24:42

Our power. Some power users. To.

24:44

At in the hopes of it was

24:47

getting them together to hopefully help evangelize.

24:49

It helped him evangelize the product. And.

24:51

You're exactly right. While there was some product of

24:54

Angela's a Son that happen there are some good

24:56

bargain came out of it more than anything I

24:58

just learned about. all the problems are product had

25:00

that I didn't realize or all the things we

25:03

can improve on in terms of communication with customers.

25:05

All the little things are bugged people that I

25:07

didn't really realize we're that big of a deal.

25:09

It's a good point out with kind of the

25:11

first stuff that happened not the of Angela's a

25:14

shit of the marketing. Yeah. And

25:16

you know this this respects of in for me as I

25:18

see it all the time in my community where. Somebody.

25:21

Will have a business. And.

25:23

They will go to the community to

25:25

ask a question that they should go

25:28

be asking their customers same question. Rex

25:30

like are these are these people like

25:32

Yeah, let's say they sell. I don't

25:34

know. H. Mack Parts or something

25:36

like that. Ryan they're asking a bunch of online entrepreneurs

25:39

like is this the right decision I should make with

25:41

my my A H tacky commerce business and like speaking

25:43

to myself can you just as that same question your

25:45

customers in this gives you an opportunity to be able

25:47

to do that. It's it's like it at a no

25:49

brainer thing that people should be doing. As you know

25:52

talk to people who actually can use your service business

25:54

or this gives you like a direct line into doing

25:56

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27:08

As you kind of bought Centurica and started

27:10

to grow it, I mean anything along the

27:13

way that you can share with us that

27:15

helped you grow that brand, I mean I

27:18

am transitioning a bit but let's be honest,

27:20

the vast majority of people listening love to

27:22

hear tactics about how to grow online businesses

27:24

and that's what a lot of people listening

27:26

and Centurica will obviously apply in a

27:29

lot of ways to people who are listening and kind of

27:31

any strategies you use along the way to grow it. Absolutely.

27:34

So the first one that comes to my

27:37

mind is and this comes from talking to

27:39

your customers. So it's not a total departure

27:41

from what we were talking about but so

27:43

what I was doing in Centurica in order

27:46

to learn better because originally

27:48

the model of Centurica was to

27:50

be very productized and just do

27:52

all the ordering online. So

27:54

after I acquired it, I wanted to find

27:56

out what were these people actually doing, like

28:00

Were they buying all that kind of stuff?

28:02

You know the prospective clients, right and kind

28:04

of cast a little bit wider net Than

28:07

just the people who are ready to buy

28:09

so I started doing more lead generation and

28:11

doing more discovery kind of sales calls The

28:13

book that I read that changed The

28:16

way that I look at those sales calls and made

28:18

me feel like they weren't actually sales calls But actually

28:20

like I'm just here to help you and I'm not

28:22

trying to sell you kind of thing is a book

28:24

called spin selling So I applied the techniques in that

28:27

book the key one being to

28:29

really discover What is the problem

28:31

and what is this implication of this problem

28:33

and that helped us, you know close more deals and things like that

28:36

But what it more importantly did was

28:38

are when I bought the business the pricing

28:40

was typically around $500

28:42

for a due diligence project and that was

28:44

priced right for people who are buying maybe like a 20,000

28:47

or a $50,000 website But

28:50

then I started talking to people who are buying like a million

28:53

dollar Business like an online

28:55

digital business, right and they're like five

28:57

hundred dollars that can't be good That was the

28:59

feedback I was getting on those calls. And so

29:01

I'm like, okay five hundred dollars

29:03

isn't good and this became The

29:06

key the other key principle which is you

29:08

start to recognize that You

29:10

can start to go up market when you start

29:12

getting this kind of feedback so

29:14

where we were originally where people who were buying like

29:17

20,000 $50,000 sites and they were really just

29:19

kind of learning and business opportunity seeking and

29:21

things like that Then we started getting

29:23

people who were like this was going to be my

29:25

career I'm taking out a loan to buy this business

29:27

and it's gonna be my life. They

29:29

had a lot more to lose They had

29:32

a lot more pain if this deal didn't

29:34

go right And so the difference in value

29:36

between those two people was substantial So

29:39

what I did was I created a package

29:41

which was ten times the price of the

29:43

500 So I create a five thousand dollar

29:45

package and that was for these

29:48

people who wanted more hand-holding They wanted like

29:50

that high touch service So I just basically

29:52

threw everything I could think of in the

29:54

kitchen sink into that package just thinking no

29:56

one would buy it right literally

29:58

in the first six months after launching that

30:00

the business grew by about 500% because people wanted that

30:04

business then a new problem occurred which

30:07

was that I had had

30:09

promised all of this stuff and I had to fulfill

30:11

on it and I was like okay either I get

30:13

a stop selling or I got to change this or

30:16

something but you know so that created more like operational

30:18

issues that started to come up but the

30:20

cool thing was by charging more I want

30:22

more margin to put into team to help

30:24

me actually fulfill on the services instead of

30:26

having to do it just with a couple

30:29

people and a contractor so that was

30:31

the first key like strategy you

30:33

know looking to go up market offering a

30:36

higher price product worst case is nobody buys

30:38

it but your other $500 one now

30:40

looks cheap and you probably get more

30:42

sales on that one so so that was the first

30:44

growth tactic that we use and I kind of was

30:46

kicking myself because I didn't start that until like six

30:48

or twelve months after buying the business some

30:51

good pricing strategies right there man my

30:53

I used to speak publicly

30:56

on pricing strategy I love

30:58

nerding out on that kind of stuff I can only

31:01

imagine how well it worked you

31:03

know like how did you tap in

31:05

just since we are kind of focusing

31:07

around community here as you grew

31:10

some Turk I did the community help in

31:12

any additional ways whether

31:14

it's people whether it's processes whether it's growth

31:16

whether I mean I'm just throwing some ideas

31:18

out there anything else that you used in

31:20

the community took to grow it hundred

31:22

percent so number one when

31:26

I acquired the business from the original founder

31:29

he was leaving and his

31:32

other business partner who was active in the business

31:34

was also leaving so I knew that

31:36

I didn't want to do all of the work myself

31:38

and so I was at one of

31:40

my rhodium events in 2015 and a

31:42

gentleman named Brian Diner who's

31:45

my who became ultimately became my business partner was

31:47

one of the attendees at the community and I

31:49

started talking to him hey I'm buying since

31:52

shirika I'm looking for somebody who might you know be

31:54

able to help me operate in stuff and so he

31:56

came on as like a contractor to start with just

31:58

on a project basis And he

32:00

was a key, key first

32:03

person there to actually help me,

32:05

you know, allow me to focus

32:07

on sales and he focused more on the fulfillment of

32:09

the, you know, the work that we did. So

32:12

it was a really good pairing there. And ultimately, he became

32:14

my business partner in

32:16

the company, not just a contractor and helped

32:18

me grow it to the point where we

32:20

were able to exit it. So, like, again,

32:23

without that community and that relationship that came

32:25

from the community, that wouldn't have been possible.

32:28

One and just one little thing I

32:30

learned with business partners is if you

32:32

can find somebody who has a kind

32:35

of is the yin to your yang.

32:37

So Brian was very much, hey,

32:39

let's make this thing efficient. And let's not start

32:41

a bunch of new stuff. And let's keep this

32:43

thing operating really well. I was much more, hey,

32:45

let's go launch the next product. And let's, I

32:48

have the ideas and things like that. So that

32:50

actually worked really well as a pairing. He was

32:52

much more of like the finisher and I was

32:54

more of the starter type. So that was like

32:56

just a really helpful lesson on business partnership. You

32:58

find your opposite, but sometimes that can be a really good thing. I

33:02

couldn't echo that more. I have the same in my

33:04

business. So

33:07

take us up to because obviously, you know,

33:09

I mean, I don't want to short circuit

33:11

the story, but at some point you end

33:14

up selling it to Nate. Yes. Again, folks,

33:16

we'll link to his podcast episode in the

33:19

show notes. I can't remember exactly where Nate picks up

33:21

on the story because the interview was a year ago,

33:23

but I'm guessing it's right around the time he bought

33:25

it because I know we focused on Sinterka. But you

33:28

know, how did that how did that deal develop? How did you

33:30

realize, you know, you wanted to sell? How did it come to

33:32

be? And, you know, again, I'm curious to hear how you met

33:35

Nate. Yeah. Okay. So

33:37

let me just fill

33:39

in a couple quick gaps in terms of

33:41

how the community also helped grow

33:43

Sinterka was I got clients from the community

33:45

because people have that, you know, that trust

33:47

there. So if you can take a community

33:49

and monetize it by offering some kind of

33:52

a back end service or offering, that's a

33:54

really key piece. That was really

33:56

crucial for Sinterka to both get referrals

33:58

and word of mouth. customers

34:00

as well as direct customers from

34:03

the community and

34:05

to build that reputation. And then

34:08

what happened was you know after growing the business to a

34:10

certain point we caught a wave and

34:12

so I don't know if this has come up

34:14

yet in any of your past podcasts but the

34:17

wave that I'm speaking of is a whole

34:19

bunch of money went into funding Amazon aggregators

34:21

and we thought that way because after the

34:23

you know the prior five or six years

34:25

of building since shiraka starting with people

34:27

are doing $20,000 deals and a million dollar deals

34:30

five million ten dollar etc two million dollar

34:33

you know we were able to catch that

34:35

wave of all this money coming and people

34:37

needed to hire help for due diligence and

34:39

they started comparing us to like a

34:41

PricewaterhouseCoopers who charge you know fifty to

34:44

five hundred thousand dollars for due diligence

34:46

package pretty soon we started looking cheap

34:48

and we saw an opportunity to go

34:50

up market. So directly

34:52

as a result of the community you

34:54

know being being supportive and referring and

34:56

all that kind of stuff that happened

35:00

so we eventually got to the point with since

35:02

shiraka where we're doing over a million a year

35:04

in profit and it was like me and Brian

35:06

and like a team of contractors and we really

35:08

made this thing efficient and profitable and we were

35:10

at a decision point where we could

35:12

either reinvest put

35:15

a bunch of overhead in the business and hope that

35:17

this wave continues to go in the future but

35:20

neither Brian and I had a lot of

35:22

experience building big teams and you know systems

35:24

and stuff and we had this really profitable

35:26

business and I think that it's pretty common

35:28

especially for agencies and service businesses to have

35:30

this chicken or egg scenario where it's like

35:33

we need more people to pay for the clients

35:35

but like getting more people takes money out of

35:37

our pockets and we don't know what's gonna happen

35:39

with it like this this weird chicken or egg

35:42

so you know we were like at a decision

35:44

point do we reinvest in the business build out

35:46

a bunch of processes build out a team and

35:48

hope that the market continues to be really good

35:51

or do we consider you know another option might

35:53

be to sell it and lo and

35:56

behold rhodium came in again which is Nate

35:58

had been a longtime member of of Rhodium.

36:00

Nate the buyer of Centurica had been a long time

36:02

member of Rhodium. And we talked, you

36:04

know, he was active in the community,

36:06

etc. And apparently, it had always

36:08

been his idea that he wanted to buy Centurica. So

36:10

he reached out to me again, just you know, top

36:13

of mind, right, because I been

36:15

in front of him for however many years

36:17

he'd been in Rhodium, reaching out to say,

36:19

Hey, any interest in selling Centurica, and we

36:21

ended up doing the deal. I'm sure Nate

36:23

told the whole story on that podcast. That's

36:25

how Rhodium also fit into the puzzle. So

36:28

I bought Rhodium, or I bought Centurica from a Rhodium

36:30

member, had a business partner that helped

36:32

me grow Rhodium, I got a bunch of clients and

36:34

referrals from Rhodium. And I sold

36:37

it to another Rhodium member. So if

36:39

that doesn't show you the ROI of a community, I don't know what

36:41

does. And it's

36:43

a paid community. That's the other thing. It's not like

36:45

you got a bunch of people together. I know

36:48

you have a free free part

36:50

of it. But this is all done really within

36:53

the paid community. I mean, talk about moving up

36:55

market even in your own community. Yeah,

36:58

absolutely. And that's been an

37:00

interesting one to balance is,

37:03

you know, you have

37:05

somebody in the community who is, let's

37:07

say they're doing eight figures a year,

37:10

right? And then you have

37:12

to decide like, what is best

37:14

for the community? Do I bring

37:16

in somebody who has really early

37:18

stage questions and problems? Or are they

37:20

better in a different community, right? And so you

37:22

kind of have to evolve over time with with

37:24

community based on the dynamics of your

37:26

community. So you know, you have to find like,

37:28

what is the avatar that I'm really trying to

37:30

focus and help and problems that I'm trying to

37:32

solve. And sometimes people at other end of that,

37:34

you know, somebody who is doing nine figures, their

37:37

problems are so different than people who are

37:39

doing seven figures in the community. Typically, oftentimes

37:42

they're not always that different, but but oftentimes

37:44

they may be. And then somebody

37:46

who's just trying to product find product market fit,

37:48

their problems are very different than people are looking

37:50

to scale. So yeah, you do have to evolve

37:52

over time. And for us, it has

37:54

meant going up market a little bit and people

37:57

who are a little further along in the journey, you know,

37:59

typically they have product market fit, they're looking to

38:01

scale, you know, 500k a year and up sort

38:03

of sort of thing. I

38:07

guess maybe I'll ask at this point, I'm

38:09

curious to get your feedback on going

38:13

back to people thinking about starting a community. Maybe

38:16

they've listened to us 30 plus minutes

38:18

in now and they're thinking, man, I

38:21

can see all the benefits to starting a

38:23

community. What tips would you have for people

38:25

starting a community? I know you did talk

38:27

about going to your first five people, but

38:29

maybe more on like a tactical level, like

38:32

whether it's mistakes you've made or things to

38:34

pay attention to or ways to get that

38:36

first set of traction so you can start

38:38

to see some ROI on it. Just tips

38:40

on starting a new community. Yeah,

38:43

so that core group is so

38:45

key because that's where your conversations

38:47

come from. The size

38:49

of the group matters a

38:51

lot when when

38:54

you take into account how much conversation is happening.

38:56

So if you have like a really noisy

38:58

small group that may feel like, oh

39:01

gosh, this is not great. But if

39:03

it's like, you know, a thousand people

39:05

and there's one post every week, something's

39:07

going to feel off. So you have to find the right balance

39:09

of like a conversation

39:12

to number of people. And

39:16

what I would say is, you know, I

39:18

think there's like concentric circles.

39:20

There's this idea in psychology called Dunbar's

39:22

number. Basically the number of people that

39:25

humans can maintain a relationship with. Like

39:27

another way to put it is,

39:29

you know, there's about 150 people that you

39:31

probably have that you would go and say hi to at a bar

39:33

if you saw them, right. And so that's

39:36

like a helpful number, like to

39:38

think about, but within that 150, there's

39:40

smaller concentric circles. So typically there's about

39:42

five in your family, you know,

39:44

your closest close knit group. And then there's

39:47

another circle that's like 45 or 50.

39:49

And then, you know, it goes up to like, whatever

39:51

it is, 75 or something. So you

39:54

want to kind of grow those concentric

39:56

circles, like with intention and be really

39:58

careful that the next person you bring in, in is

40:01

going to be additive to the community. If

40:04

we're talking about, like, again, this

40:07

is assuming this is a peer-to-peer, more

40:09

knowledge sharing as opposed to like a

40:12

guru-led community. But yeah, being

40:14

thoughtful about how quickly

40:16

you bring people in. The

40:19

other thing that you can do if the

40:21

ratio of people to conversations is not

40:23

high enough is just start conversation starters.

40:26

So it can be as simple as like, hey,

40:28

the helpful content update just came out. Who's

40:30

been impacted, right? And now you've got a

40:32

conversation that starts to engage people. And

40:35

so you can kind of lead and spark those

40:37

conversations to keep the ratio going

40:39

as much as possible. The

40:43

other big thing I would say has been

40:45

special for Rhodium is actually having a defined

40:47

set of values for the community. So

40:49

we have like four main values. But one of them

40:51

is paying it forward. And so that

40:53

means people are in a giving mindset. So

40:56

if people are just there, like, I basically have

40:58

a very heavy hand for self-promotion of any kind.

41:01

There's no faster way to screw up your

41:03

community than allow people to spam their stuff.

41:06

So you've got to have a heavy hand with it.

41:09

And that means kicking people out if they are their

41:11

takers instead of givers. Because

41:13

as soon as people start seeing that, they're going

41:15

to bail. So you've got to be really careful

41:18

about filtering things out with that. So those are

41:20

a few just like quick things off the top

41:22

of my head.

41:24

You kind of dovetailed it nicely. How do you recommend

41:27

or how do you find content to

41:30

keep people engaged? I mean, you said yourself

41:32

like content is a little bit

41:36

pretty easy to find nowadays, right? And certainly

41:38

that's where the value of community comes into

41:40

play. But you have to have something to

41:42

share to get people in. And this juxtaposition

41:44

that I think a lot of people might

41:47

be thinking about as they look to create

41:49

a community. Yeah, so here's what I

41:52

would say to that is you have to think about

41:54

the positioning of your community. Why does

41:56

it exist? Is it there for

41:58

you to share content with? your

42:01

perspective and current clients,

42:04

if so, the content should come from you

42:06

and you should be the show. And

42:10

where you can monetize something like that is

42:13

obviously you can drive them to

42:15

content that then leads to sales.

42:18

Or if you are the show, people

42:20

want to be closer to you and sometimes

42:22

they're willing to pay to do that. So

42:24

if you have your own really common term

42:26

you'll hear out there is like an inner

42:28

circle where it's like, instead of it just

42:30

being an online forum, now they're on live

42:32

calls and they're doing Q&A with you and

42:34

they get to be closer and they pay

42:36

for that. And maybe you record that and

42:38

that becomes recordings that you can then sell

42:41

access to or something like that. So

42:43

that would be one positioning, which is

42:45

like a guru-led, your job is producing

42:48

content. If it's

42:50

more positioned as this

42:52

is a peer community

42:54

where in

42:57

my community content does not really come from me.

42:59

I'll share stuff as I have it, like the

43:02

story with Centuric guys share that in the community

43:04

obviously. But I am

43:06

not the show, like the community is

43:08

the show. So my job is not

43:10

to come up with content, it's to

43:12

create a culture and show

43:14

people that the values of Rhodium are

43:16

being willing to share and give your

43:18

knowledge to others. And that's

43:21

really where it comes from is setting

43:23

that expectation up front and having the

43:25

positioning that people know, the expectation of

43:28

this community is to share. Now,

43:31

if we're looking for tactics around that, I

43:34

don't personally do this, but there's a great community

43:36

called Ecommerce Fuel, a guy

43:38

named Andrew Udarian, fantastic guy

43:41

who built his community. What he does is

43:43

when somebody first comes into his community, they're required

43:45

to kind of write up like, let's just call

43:47

it a white paper. So in

43:49

order to be a full member of the community, they

43:52

first have to give in order to unlock access to

43:54

be able to receive. And so that could be a

43:56

simple thing you start with to help to filter out

43:58

some of those people who are not. willing and

44:00

able to do that. And you know, again,

44:02

you just tie it to the positioning, like,

44:04

why does this community exist? And then

44:06

you tie it to the values. And you think about

44:09

like, what are the actions that

44:11

are indicative that people are following the values?

44:13

Commonly, that's going to be they're very sharing

44:15

with comments when people ask a question and

44:17

all those kinds of things. And so that

44:19

starts to become the norm and the culture

44:21

of the community. That's

44:23

good. Have

44:26

you seen any track record of success

44:29

with people buying communities? I mean, certainly,

44:31

you ran a company for many years

44:33

that was all about evaluating things,

44:36

businesses, I don't know if communities ever made their way

44:38

into that. Or do you just see like, do

44:41

you see any aptitude for people

44:43

wanting to buy a community rather than start it themselves?

44:47

I have. So the

44:49

biggest player I can think of that would be

44:51

in this space. And

44:53

I don't think the outcome was very good for

44:55

them. But there I think there might be still

44:57

around it's called vertical scope, I believe. And

45:00

they're basically like an aggregator of

45:02

forums. But obviously,

45:04

you know, the bulletin and these old, you

45:06

know, technologies around online forums have kind of

45:08

changed and, you know, Facebook groups and Slack

45:11

and all these things have kind of eaten

45:13

at their eating up some of their lunch. But that was their whole

45:15

model. They go by forums and they had a playbook

45:18

for operating those forums and forums at the end

45:21

of the day are a community. And

45:23

so that would be like if you wanted to study somebody

45:25

who's done it, that would be the company I would look

45:27

at. Yeah.

45:30

Sold going back to Centurica

45:32

sold that and what

45:36

are you up to nowadays? You just live in the

45:38

good life once a week, once a year, the rhodium

45:40

weekend or you know, like what take us back from,

45:43

take us back to where you're at right now and kind

45:45

of what you're spending your time on. Yeah, it

45:47

is an interesting I told myself and you'll

45:50

hear this if you ever have an exit

45:52

that's meaningful to you. People Will tell you

45:54

don't start anything new for at least six

45:56

months or year that the number changes but

45:58

I told you that. The myself I'm not

46:01

going to start having new for a year

46:03

and I have rhodium to kind of fall

46:05

back to and so that assaults and shirk

46:07

our I'm pretty much in the whatever it

46:09

is Levan. Twelve years I've been doing rhodium,

46:11

I've always had another operating business or portfolio.

46:13

And. I was working on in addition to rhodium. so

46:16

this is the first time I've ever had the

46:18

opportunity to just focus on rhodium. And ah, it's

46:20

so fun of and loving. And I have kids

46:22

that are. You have a twelve year old and

46:24

the fifteen year old and a wife and and

46:26

so like I'm I'm in. It's weird place where

46:28

I'm like. You. Know I loved you

46:30

in road am I could see myself continue to do

46:32

that regardless of other things that I'm doing. I'm also

46:34

trying to live the good life. As you said, and

46:37

and I you know not get sucked into. You.

46:39

Know started something brand new and and all that.

46:41

so I'm in kind of this balancing live in

46:43

the good life for awhile and and I think

46:45

of it as a season I guess. And. It's.

46:49

Interesting. You have new challenges to decide.

46:51

So I now it's like, well, I.

46:54

Don't want to sacrifice the good life to

46:56

go after some potential home run the may

46:58

suck me and to having a higher bunch

47:00

of people. In all it's kind of stuff.

47:03

But. Is it really worth it at

47:05

this point to just go for a single and

47:07

so you're You kind of end up in a

47:09

i don't know like you to create new decision

47:12

filters for yourself for opportunities. and right now my

47:14

default is rhodium and I'm in a way to

47:16

see what happens. Almost. Full

47:18

circle back to the person you bought

47:20

Centrica from who was ready for. I

47:22

wasn't ready for a single, but was

47:24

ready for their home run. Almost as

47:26

exactly interesting on Hey Chris, working people

47:29

catch up with you in in Canada,

47:31

you know, either learn more about rhodium

47:33

or what you're going on. Yeah.

47:35

Rhodium weekend.com or each show the I U

47:37

N weekend.com Um as I mentioned I interview

47:39

everybody before inviting men so if you want

47:41

to have a chat me to like to

47:44

keep you fit for Odeon that be the

47:46

easiest way to do it. He

47:49

thank you for coming on board. I think we're can

47:51

be talking a lot more about community this year. ah

47:53

building at participating in it it's value

47:55

to a brand to a business i

47:57

mean i even think we'll probably have

48:00

coming on to talk about

48:02

it almost like you did where it wasn't

48:04

a bolt-on to a business, but we see

48:06

these stories of people just starting a community

48:08

for the purpose of the community. And

48:11

so whatever that conversation looks like, I appreciate you

48:13

coming on and kicking off the year that I

48:15

think will have a lot of conversations around this

48:17

topic. So thank you so much. My pleasure. Thanks

48:19

for having me on. Thanks

48:23

for joining us today on the

48:25

podcast. Just a final reminder that

48:27

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