0:06

Are you ready to jumpstart your next big

0:08

idea? Then welcome to

0:10

the niche pursuits podcast. It's

0:13

all about helping you find your niche, getting

0:15

the motivation and strategies you need and

0:18

growing your ideas into something real. How

0:32

can we make sense of EEAT

0:34

and all of the recent Google

0:36

updates? Because again, it kind

0:38

of then satisfies what they're looking for on should

0:40

this site be here? Is this a site that people can

0:42

go to? And they get their information and

0:44

they ask questions. Is somebody responsible

0:46

for this? Are they responsive? Google doesn't look

0:49

at your website. You know, Google

0:51

doesn't get to your site. Like I am a

0:53

better person for having read this information. That's not

0:56

what happens in the process. And so all of these signals are

0:58

things that a bot needs to be able to find. Well,

1:01

we're joined by a returning guest back

1:03

by popular demand to help us uncover

1:05

the changes we can make to keep

1:07

our websites safe. Sites

1:10

that are growing or obtaining more and more

1:12

keywords are healthy sites. That's an indicator that

1:14

you're doing things very well. And Google likes

1:16

you. Where I would start to be concerned

1:18

is when that plateaus and starts to dip.

1:20

You know, you do need to get those

1:22

mentions on the web. You do need to

1:24

be in those third party sites. You know,

1:26

make yourself a brand, make it so that

1:28

there is a conversion that can happen on

1:30

your site. And I think the more of

1:32

that you do, the more trust you're going to build and

1:34

the more likely you are to not just

1:37

survive, but thrive. Welcome

1:39

to an exclusive niche pursuits

1:41

podcast interview with Kyle roof,

1:43

co-founder of high voltage SEO,

1:45

page optimizer pro, internet marketing

1:47

gold and more. Enjoy.

1:52

Hey everyone, Spencer here, founder of niche

1:54

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get $15 off. Welcome

3:06

back to the niche pursues podcast. My

3:08

name is Jared Bauman and today we

3:10

are joined by Kyle Roof. Kyle, welcome

3:12

back on. So

3:14

happy to, you know what, this might be my favorite podcast.

3:19

Is this our third one? Is this our third

3:21

one? We joked last time about having you been on and

3:24

we were at like three or four and I didn't go

3:26

back and check. I always say I'm gonna go back and

3:28

check. We joked about how we need to get you like

3:30

a nice jacket last time. I mean now we're up to

3:32

like naming a building after you or something. I

3:35

like that. Or like an official like

3:37

chair, like the podcast YouTube show chair.

3:41

Again, I haven't checked but you

3:43

gotta be the longest running guest

3:46

now officially. It's the unofficial officially. I'm

3:48

proud of both of us. Hey,

3:52

you know, we found more to talk about. It has been

3:54

over a year, just over

3:56

a year and the podcast episode you did

3:58

about a year ago. So as

4:01

per usual, as one of our most popular ones

4:03

of the year, we were talking serendipitously

4:05

about EAT and simultaneously as

4:08

we released that podcast, Google

4:10

announced the fourth letter

4:12

to the acronym. It was almost a week or two

4:14

later, but the podcast was so excellent that it still

4:17

stood up on its own, but that

4:19

was a year ago. We've got more to talk about. A lot's

4:21

happened in the world of SEO in 2023 and as we enter

4:23

into 2024. Yeah,

4:27

let's do it. So

4:31

again, I always have to ask this, but

4:33

just give us like a 60 second overview on

4:35

yourself. I will link in the show notes

4:37

to previous episodes and for anybody who's been

4:39

living under a rock and isn't familiar with you

4:41

and what you do, just catch us up

4:43

really quickly and then we'll dive into some

4:45

of the topics today. Sure.

4:48

I'm the co-founder of a multinational

4:51

agency called High Voltage SEO. I

4:54

think when we spoke, we had officers in Phoenix,

4:56

Berlin, and Melbourne, and now there's an office in

4:58

Jamaica. We are slowly

5:01

but surely expanding our global domination

5:05

over taking things over globally.

5:09

I'm the co-creator and inventor

5:11

of Page Optimizer Pro, which is an on-page

5:13

SEO tool, and I am

5:15

the co-founder of IMG Courses. It's a

5:17

place where we help you

5:20

learn SEO. My courses are there and we

5:22

also test Google's algorithm and the test that I run on

5:24

the algorithm I post there as well. So

5:27

last time you were on, we

5:29

talked all about EAT, which was

5:31

expertise, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness. I

5:34

think let's dive into today's episode

5:36

by expanding on what you offered

5:38

with the new EZ experience factor.

5:40

And I don't want to cut

5:42

too quickly to the chase, but

5:44

you really outlined a very,

5:48

I'll just say almost like a playbook for the

5:51

things that you need to do at a bare

5:53

minimum to kind of check boxes as it

5:55

relates to EAT. I'm over summarizing and probably

5:57

putting words in your mouth to some degree.

6:00

But in many ways, I'd

6:02

love if we could pick up where that

6:04

was. Give us, again, just a really high

6:06

level over why the experience component you think

6:08

got added and how it plays in with

6:10

EAT and then we can get into the

6:12

details of experience. Well,

6:14

like a very quick, I think, recap

6:17

would be what we thought on time

6:19

on the expertise was really, is

6:22

this a real person? You know, is there

6:24

a real person here that has expertise?

6:30

And then we talked about the signals that you can give, because

6:32

keep in mind, and this is

6:34

a very, I think, important point, Google doesn't look at

6:36

your website. You know, Google doesn't get

6:38

to your site and they're like, I am a better

6:40

person for having read this information. Like that's not

6:43

what happens in the process. And so all of these signals

6:45

are things that a bot needs to be able to find.

6:48

Because they can't look at the website and be like, oh, this

6:50

looks legit. Because that's just not how it's

6:52

done. So these signals are the things that you

6:54

want to project have to be in a way that

6:56

a bot would be able to

6:58

understand them. So as

7:00

much as you can do to show that a

7:03

human has written this information is the idea on

7:06

the expertise. It's

7:08

not that you have a particular expertise. You

7:10

know, there isn't a value judgment where

7:13

what's better, a degree from Stanford or a

7:15

degree from MIT. You know, who

7:17

knows? Google doesn't know. Or what's

7:19

better, you know, having more experience than we talked about,

7:21

you know, having 20 years of experience. What's

7:24

better than, is that better than somebody's got a degree of

7:26

four years and just got out? That's

7:28

not, it's not really a value judgment that Google

7:30

is doing, but it's establishing something that a real

7:32

person has written this content. We

7:35

get to authority or authoritativeness. That's

7:39

where you're looking at, I think, are you the go to website? Are

7:42

you the go to place for information? And that's

7:44

really getting into ideas of topical coverage. Have

7:46

you covered the topic fully so that if somebody

7:48

has a particular question, can they

7:51

get more than that information there?

7:53

You know, they can they get the question

7:55

answered fully. Because it's usually not one webpage

7:57

that will solve, you know, your problems or

7:59

provide provide a complete answer

8:02

on something, but that as they go through the

8:04

site, the answer is there. And

8:06

then the last one, trustworthiness, is

8:09

really responsibility. Who is

8:12

responsible for this website and who is

8:14

responsible for this content? You know, if

8:16

somebody has an issue, if somebody has a question, if

8:18

somebody has a problem, who

8:20

can they talk to, who can they get

8:22

redress from? And so those

8:25

were kind of, I think, some of the big things

8:27

we talked about and then signals that you can help give a

8:29

bot to help them

8:31

find that those things are there. You

8:34

are a real person, but you do

8:36

take ownership and responsibility, you know, that you're present,

8:39

those types of things. So that's kind of what

8:41

we got into the last time. And then it

8:43

was pretty hilarious. I think it was two weeks

8:45

after that they released the new quality

8:47

reader guidelines and added an extra e-mail. So

8:51

now my heart sunk a bit, but it was pretty

8:53

funny. It was pretty funny, you got to admit.

8:57

It was almost going out

9:00

of fashion. But

9:02

you know, all of that, it's kind of like all of that stayed

9:05

basically the same. There were two big

9:08

changes with that update. The one with

9:10

adding the extra e-4 experience. And

9:13

what's interesting is when you read the

9:16

guidelines, it's really gray as the

9:18

difference between experience and expertise. And

9:21

in typical Google fashion, that grayness is kind of

9:23

like a charcoal gray. You

9:26

know, like what does this mean? Exactly.

9:29

I think you can probably think of expertise

9:32

as a degree and

9:34

experience as time would

9:37

be kind of I think the two differentiators

9:40

between the two things. But then how

9:42

do you express time? And

9:46

I really think what we talked about with the

9:49

expertise part covers the experience part as well. Is

9:52

this a real person? Have they done this? You know, have

9:54

they been there and all that? And I

9:56

think really.

10:00

That's kind of the main focus. There's

10:02

been some speculations of what else you might do,

10:04

and I don't have anything hard or, you know,

10:07

like, yeah, this is it. But

10:09

a lot of people have been

10:11

using terms where they discuss things

10:13

in personal experience. I did

10:15

this. I tried this

10:17

thing out. I used it this long. I have

10:19

been doing these things. So, like, talking

10:22

from a perspective of

10:24

experience, they have been involved

10:26

in this thing. They have tried it out. If you're talking

10:28

about a product, when I use this product, that's the thing.

10:31

And so using that type of experiential language is

10:33

something that people have turned to. Again,

10:35

I don't know. I haven't seen amazing

10:38

results doing that, or somebody conclusively saying that's the thing.

10:40

But that is some of the people are leaning

10:42

towards. And when you think about

10:45

Google looking at a page, kind of like as

10:47

a bag of words, you know, they're all kind of

10:49

in there, and you've got contextual terms that help

10:51

Google understand what's the value. You could see those

10:54

personalized terms could be something that they

10:56

could be looking for. Again, a bot will

10:58

be looking at this, not a

11:00

human. The other huge change, though—oh,

11:02

I'm sorry. I think I cut you off. No,

11:04

no. I was going to ask you about the other

11:06

change as it related to that. So go ahead. I

11:09

think it changed what they basically kind of said. Who cares

11:11

about the EE or the A? It's

11:14

all about the T. It's all about the trust

11:16

part. And they actually have a

11:18

new diagram where they've got three circles that

11:20

have the E, the E, and the A.

11:23

And then there's a bigger circle overlapping with

11:25

the T for trust. Basically

11:27

saying if you don't meet the threshold for trust,

11:29

the other things don't matter at

11:31

all. And that really the

11:33

trust part is the part that is

11:35

the main focus now going forward. And

11:37

that's really what you need to clue in on

11:40

to kind of pass these E-type checks.

11:43

And the trust is really what

11:45

they're in on. to

12:00

more tangible ones and

12:02

perhaps more important that authority was

12:05

a little more about how well

12:07

your your site is performing. You

12:09

talked about hey ranking for keywords, covering

12:12

the topic. How will you know if you

12:14

have authority? Well because you rank for more

12:16

keywords. It's important to rank to get authority

12:19

and those things come on the

12:21

back of doing all the other things well. Now you're

12:23

saying it's gotten switched a little bit to maybe trust

12:25

being more important. If you had to

12:27

kind of score these or at least give people like

12:30

a way to evaluate what to put a priority on.

12:32

Is it trust, experience, and then the other two or

12:34

is it kind of

12:36

changed your experience? I'd probably go like trust

12:38

and then the authority. Bigger sites do better.

12:41

Bigger sites seem to get more grace and

12:44

bigger sites are ranking for more

12:46

keywords. So authority is I think

12:48

maybe above establishing the things that

12:50

they would visit as a human. They

12:53

have these qualifications. They've done these things. So that's a

12:55

little bit harder I think to get into because also

12:57

you can face them rather easily. You

12:59

can't face your rankings. You know they're there

13:01

or not and so I can

13:03

see how that would be extremely important and then the

13:05

idea of trust. Trust becomes it

13:08

is very tangible because it's like who is responsible for this

13:10

website. So there you're getting into

13:12

you know is

13:15

there a company behind this? Are there people

13:17

behind this and that's easily identified like in

13:20

your organization schema for example or

13:22

is this

13:24

a website that actually has just good website

13:27

features? You know is it 404 is

13:29

everywhere? Broken links? Does

13:32

it load incredibly slow? Like basically nobody's taking

13:34

care of this. You know they're not really

13:36

taking responsibility for the website and doing the

13:38

things that a website should do. Are there

13:40

a lot of de-index pages? Are there you

13:42

know I do have a lot of errors in search

13:44

console for example. You can see how that

13:46

would factor into okay this is this is not a

13:49

website that anybody is taking responsibility for

13:51

and there's really no point to have it in

13:53

index in the first place. You know as

13:55

kind of a defining goal

13:57

like they start giving those rankings okay

13:59

this is getting a the word should it

14:01

be here in the first place? It seems like that's kind of the step

14:04

that things go. There's probably a threshold for traffic of

14:06

some measure. And then

14:08

once they say, okay, you're hitting this thing now, we need to

14:10

really evaluate should you be here. And so

14:12

that point that would, I think, trigger a lot of these

14:14

types of checks and then things are going to

14:16

look at are, is there somebody responsible for this site?

14:18

You can identify that easily. And

14:20

is this a site that's worth anything? You know, should this

14:23

be here in the service because people will have a good

14:25

experience with this thing? So

14:27

let's dive into experience as

14:30

it is the new one that we haven't really

14:32

covered in depth in the podcast. And again, if you

14:34

missed last year's interview, Kyle went

14:36

through this stuff with a razor sharp knife and

14:38

just went through each of these very, very practically.

14:41

So a lot of practical tips and we kind

14:43

of ping pong back and forth. Do you need a

14:45

Google business profile? Do you need an address? Do you

14:47

like, so all those questions were asked and that's why I'm

14:50

not asking them right now. So go

14:53

back and listen to that one if you're wondering why I'm not

14:55

asking some of those. But with experience, I didn't have a chance

14:57

to ask that. So let's talk about experience. I

14:59

mean, you touched on a few

15:01

of them already that are on my list to ask

15:03

you about first-person language, referencing

15:07

in an author bio your experience

15:09

on the page, actually

15:14

highlighting and showcasing by linking out

15:16

to places that you've been mentioned,

15:18

awards you've been given, areas

15:21

that you've been quoted. What

15:23

are things that are a little

15:25

bit less fantasy,

15:29

a little bit more practical in terms of what we

15:31

can do to show experience? So

15:33

I do think, and there's a blurring

15:35

between these as to what would

15:38

help this or that. But one thing

15:40

that I've always kind of clued in

15:42

on is UGC. Google talked about how much

15:45

they like that. So user-generated content not

15:47

often comes in the form of comments

15:49

or forum posts kind of thing. And

15:51

if somebody has experience, you know, if they have

15:54

expertise, if they have all those things, you will

15:56

ask them questions. You know, people come to my

15:58

website and they ask questions. I

16:01

think that establishes that, you know, I am

16:03

at least somewhat trustworthy or people want to

16:05

know. They want to know more

16:07

information so you can see the value of UGC

16:10

as something that would establish, okay, this person has

16:12

the experience that they're talking about because now people

16:14

are asking them questions. And

16:17

when you see like the helpful content update

16:20

that's happened, and we might talk about this

16:22

a little bit more, the sites that are

16:24

winning, that are really moved in are Reddit

16:26

and Quora. And those are

16:28

all UGC. Somebody asks

16:30

a question and then somebody gives an answer.

16:33

And then a discussion happens kind

16:35

of independently of the original post

16:38

or the original thing that was there by a

16:40

lot of different people. And what you can

16:42

see when that happens is that you get a lot of different opinions

16:44

as well. You get a lot

16:46

of information that allows you to evaluate information quickly. It

16:48

also helps you evaluate if the original post or the

16:51

person that made the claim or whatever they're talking about

16:53

really, if the people that are

16:55

there have accepted that. If they say that, yeah, that's

16:57

a good thing or not. The

16:59

way, you know, when we talk about the Google doesn't do

17:01

value judgment, you know, humans do, and they do

17:03

it through comments and they do it through threads.

17:06

And you can see where that would

17:09

allow the person who is absorbing the

17:11

information and to look at the thread

17:13

and see what other questions people have if they're

17:15

answered appropriately. If

17:17

the discussion seems to be positive about what this

17:20

person has presented, it's a way to kind of validate the

17:23

experience of the person or their expertise

17:25

even as it's a little bit gray,

17:27

but done through UGC. And

17:29

so I can see all those things you mentioned

17:31

that I would still totally do. I don't

17:33

know how far Google is going to go off of

17:35

a web page to verify anything, if at all. I

17:38

think they would see the existence of those links or of

17:40

those things and that would be enough to kind of tick

17:42

that box. But then I think a

17:45

way to really demonstrate that you have this experience

17:47

that people are interested in would be

17:49

through UGC. They're now asking you questions about what

17:51

you talked about. And

17:53

this is on your page, right? So

17:55

comments open on your page. You

17:57

wrote an article about something that... You

18:00

have experience in and you're using all the right language

18:02

to show Google you have the experience in it You're

18:04

even pointing to a link or two that says you

18:06

have experience in it But perhaps opening

18:08

comments up engaging in comments and showcasing a

18:11

back-and-forth Highlights that people are actually interested in

18:13

your experience on it, right?

18:15

It validates what you've done It also then

18:18

gives anybody who goes and read that information

18:20

later also a thread to review to see

18:22

do other people think this is valid You

18:24

know do other are other people in line with this and

18:26

so even if the wrong information because Google can't really Determinate

18:29

if information is right or wrong. It only

18:31

only what satisfies what its algorithm looking for,

18:33

but you can actually then kind of fact

18:36

check Proof check, you know

18:38

any kind of kind of check can be done through

18:40

comments after that and I can see that's why

18:44

A core or a reddit I think you've gotten

18:46

preference after this most recent Update

18:49

well that several updates. I

18:51

would mention don't just turn them on you're gonna get spam to hell

18:54

So don't just don't like moderate them. But if

18:56

a question comes in Something

18:58

that you can approve and then you can answer

19:01

also in a term rich way So you're getting

19:03

your term counts up on the page You

19:06

could tweak things so that every time you respond

19:08

to the page gets a new freshness data do

19:10

modify maybe to show that This is fresh content

19:13

that people are engaging with That

19:16

this is something that is relevant. So you could be

19:18

talking about something a product from last year. I Think

19:21

Google will have to decide it is this being updated or

19:23

is this something that should show and Having

19:26

those comments is one way to do it This

19:29

conversation is still happening It

19:31

reminds me a bit of what we're encouraged to do

19:34

in in with our with our Google business profile We're

19:36

encouraged to get reviews, right? We it's better when people

19:38

are reviewing and then what do they want us to

19:40

do? They actually want us as owners to reply to

19:42

the review to show engagement with the person and show

19:45

their interaction with the person Even if it's like hey,

19:47

thanks a lot appreciate it It's about all you can

19:49

usually say with a review, but they still want that

19:51

engagement to happen Yeah,

19:53

and you can do that on your site and

19:56

I think sites that Can

19:58

engage in that and obviously that's time consuming

20:00

and it's not easy, it's resource

20:02

intensive, but those are the sites

20:04

they're looking for that can do those types of things. Because

20:06

again, it kind of then satisfies what they're looking for

20:09

on should the site be here? Is this

20:11

a site that people can go to? And like if

20:13

they're information, can they ask questions? Is

20:15

somebody responsible for this? Are they responsive?

20:18

And you can really see a lot of that through something

20:20

like a UGC feature. Do

20:23

we flip the script and start

20:26

engaging on

20:28

UGC platforms like Reddit and Quora in

20:30

an effort to help build a better footprint

20:32

of experience for ourselves? And yes,

20:35

if you're wondering, I'll tease it. We're gonna

20:37

get into the HCU. We are, I promise.

20:39

So we're trying to

20:41

kind of stay on the EEAT topic without

20:43

totally going into HCU, but we will get

20:45

all into HCU if you're wondering so. But

20:48

yeah, obviously that is an HCU related question.

20:50

But just from the idea of experience, do

20:52

we wanna engage in say

20:54

starting some subreddits or participating

20:56

in Reddit and et cetera, et

20:58

cetera? Well, I

21:01

think for the existence of it, I don't think

21:03

it's gonna do much to help your site. But

21:06

one other aspect of EEAT

21:08

is links. That is something that

21:10

is certainly a part of it. I don't think we touched

21:13

on that too much. It's something

21:15

I've thought about more about since

21:17

that talk that we had. And

21:19

I can certainly see that there would be an aspect

21:21

to links that would be valuable.

21:24

And the question is what type of links are those? Because they

21:26

couldn't just be all links. They couldn't be domain authority. The sites

21:28

with domain authority get hit by

21:30

e-step all the time. But I can really

21:32

see value in things like citations,

21:36

which confirm your business identity, branded

21:39

web 2.0s, which again, confirm what kind of

21:41

business you are. But then you can see

21:43

links from social media, that

21:45

would potentially bring traffic in. So

21:48

links on places like Facebook and Twitter

21:51

and Quora and Reddit. I think establishing

21:53

those link coming in, meaning that you are

21:55

out in the universe and

21:58

you're talking about these things. And there are links. been

22:00

coming from these types of sites in.

22:03

And so, well, I think just posting on there might not be

22:05

something where Google is going to go from your site and then

22:07

check it. I think something that can be very beneficial for EAT

22:10

would be that existence there and there's a link

22:12

that's coming back too. And so any

22:14

kind of things you could do and even maybe getting

22:16

into a parasite SEO, which is a good way maybe

22:19

to alleviate some of the issues with HSU. But

22:21

also links on third party

22:23

sites that are trusted, ones that are showing up within search

22:25

results or they're showing up in the knowledge

22:28

graph, you know, it's like review sites or other

22:30

places for you to check information. If you're there

22:32

and present and their link's coming in from those,

22:35

I can see high value in doing that. Speaking

22:38

of citations, speaking of the knowledge graph,

22:40

there's been a lot of people talking

22:42

about, we'll call it entity building as

22:45

a better way to create a digital

22:47

footprint of experience in Google's mind. Perhaps

22:50

the scenario here would be getting mentions,

22:53

whether it's on a business level or on

22:56

a personal level, on sites

22:58

that Google has been known to trust.

23:01

Not in a classic backlink environment. That's

23:03

more of an online mention, but more

23:05

in terms of creating profiles, creating, we'll

23:08

just call it like citations, mentions on

23:10

these kind of trusted platforms. Maybe a

23:13

crunch base would come to mind for your business. These

23:17

sorts of platforms, how important

23:19

or how relevant do you think that is

23:21

in gaining experience? And perhaps that swings into

23:24

the expertise conversation too. I

23:26

don't mean to toot my own horn, but when

23:29

I launched my on-page course in 2019, there was a whole

23:33

section on it. And I think it was

23:35

valuable then. And I think it's very valuable

23:37

now. You do need to

23:39

get those mentions on the web. You do need to be

23:41

in those third party sites. And sometimes you get

23:43

a backlink out of it, which I think is great. And other times

23:45

it does get into those mentions. It's hard to

23:47

quantify a brand mention or a personal mention. And

23:49

how many do you need or how many can

23:51

you get? Or does Google even really look at

23:54

these? Not really sure, but you do see how

23:56

when those things seem to happen, how you seem

23:58

to be better. And

24:00

it's probably, it can also be a byproduct of

24:02

other work that's happening. But

24:05

it does seem to go hand in hand with

24:07

sites that are doing well, sites that can pass

24:09

these types of checks, sites that have excelled,

24:11

all have those things. And they

24:13

have them because they are present

24:17

outside of their site. And they're present on

24:19

those platforms and they're posting and they're being

24:21

involved in answering questions. And so there is,

24:23

it could just be kind

24:25

of a byproduct of that. And that's why you see

24:27

all those mentions. But they're there because they are out

24:30

there and people are talking about them.

24:32

And they are also being involved in that conversation.

24:35

It feels like, not to overly summarize, but maybe

24:37

to kind of move towards

24:39

a conclusion here. It feels like

24:41

experience is a lot more nebulous than

24:44

some of the other ones we talked

24:46

about. I mean, I remember with trust,

24:48

you were like, hey, have a privacy

24:50

policy page. Yeah. Hey, with expertise, hey,

24:52

make sure you have author bios. And

24:54

it felt a lot more, I

24:59

guess, tangible in terms of what we needed to create.

25:01

And with experience, it seems like there's a lot of

25:03

like, it's a collection of a lot of

25:05

factors. So let's try to do as many of

25:07

these factors for as long of a period of

25:09

time as we can. And collectively, we will kind

25:11

of check this box. Is that accurate or is

25:13

that a little bit too simplified? No,

25:17

no, you hit the nail on the head. It

25:20

is a murky thing, as I said, when you read the

25:22

guidelines, it's charcoal grass. Like,

25:25

what are we talking about? It honestly says like,

25:28

a person with experience has

25:30

experience. It's like, well, that's

25:34

a paraphrase, but it's not too far

25:36

off. It's like, good. Yeah,

25:40

I will now go get experience. Yes.

25:44

Yeah. It's like that professor we all had who would

25:46

answer your question with another question. And you're like, this

25:48

is not what I came here for. No,

25:51

I came here for an answer, actually. I

25:53

want to go on. Okay. So

25:56

because it's like that, we have to

25:58

kind of make some guesses. best

26:00

guesses and some best practices. But the

26:02

best practice on all of this is

26:04

make yourself real. You

26:06

know, make yourself as real as you can. That's

26:08

the big thing. Think about the brick and mortar

26:10

building of what you're doing. You

26:13

know, what do they have? There's

26:15

probably something online that's similar, or

26:17

something you can do online. That's kind of I think, if

26:20

you think in that mindset, like, what makes me look more

26:22

real, what makes me look more like an actual physical business

26:25

online, the more you can do

26:27

that, the better, you know, and I think if you

26:29

put that framework on your on your mindset, I think

26:31

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26:34

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26:37

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26:39

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with them now. Well,

28:07

let me segue into the HCU

28:09

with this. We've been talking about

28:11

the experience and the extra E

28:13

got added towards the end of

28:15

2022. I believe it was December

28:17

2022, maybe first week of January, 2023. Right.

28:21

So, and then, you know,

28:23

about nine months later, we had the helpful

28:26

content update and Google told us when they

28:28

added the experience that they really wanted all

28:30

of us to have experience. And then ironically,

28:33

nine months later, a significant

28:35

number of websites lost traffic

28:38

for UGC content, user-generated

28:41

content where it was experience

28:43

focused and also lost a

28:45

lot of traffic to businesses.

28:48

Tangible businesses were starting to rank higher

28:50

than a lot of say content websites

28:52

and affiliate sites. And a

28:55

lot of people surmised well because a plumber

28:57

running a plumbing business might not have a

28:59

very well optimized website, but that's because they're

29:01

out plumbing and they're ranking higher than you

29:03

because they're a plumber that plums and

29:06

your plumbing website that's very well

29:08

optimized isn't. So maybe let's wade

29:10

ourselves into the HCU with kind of

29:12

that precursor. Like does so much of

29:14

this come on the back of the

29:16

experience acronym that

29:19

I've introduced nine months earlier? I

29:21

think personally, it's actually more on the trust side. I

29:25

think that's actually where it comes in because

29:27

as you mentioned, the sites that seem to

29:29

get through were brands. And

29:32

then there are also e-commerce sites

29:35

where you can complete the transaction on the

29:37

site. You know, that's actually

29:39

the biggest thing. The sites where you can get your

29:41

information and complete what you need to do right

29:43

then and there versus most affiliate sites where

29:46

in order to complete the transaction, you have to click

29:48

and go to another site. And

29:51

you can see then I can see

29:53

how that falls under the trust aspect of things that

29:56

if there's a problem with the purchase.

30:00

The user cannot go back to the place where they originally

30:02

got sold. You know,

30:04

they read this content. Okay, this is what I

30:06

need. This is what I like. And then they

30:08

go to another site to finish the transaction there.

30:10

If there's a problem with transaction, they can't go back to

30:12

that original person that sold them. Yeah.

30:15

It says the Amazon commoner

30:17

invoice, not, you know, so-and-so's

30:19

website.com. You guys are

30:21

right. So the sites that made it through were

30:23

brands where you finish or companies

30:25

where you finish the transaction right there, you know, you

30:27

call the plumber. You know, that's, that's it.

30:30

You know, that's, that's the end of the transaction in terms

30:32

of the online part. And then you get your plumbing services

30:34

done, right. Uh, or e-commerce stores

30:36

where they then ship you the thing. And

30:39

then from there, if there's a problem, you need to do

30:41

a return to it through, through the site. And so I

30:43

can see where this is still, as they mentioned with the

30:45

addition of the extra email, said, by the way, trust is

30:47

the most important part of all of them. And

30:49

I can see where then those are

30:51

the sites that they trust the most, the sites that

30:54

are taking responsibility for the thing that they're selling. You

30:57

know, and, and that's where I think, um,

31:00

uh, the affiliate sites that have been just

31:02

pummeled by Google for the last four or five years took

31:05

one more giant pummeling is because,

31:07

uh, they want the, the transaction to finish in

31:09

that spot in case there are issues or things

31:11

come up. Um, this

31:15

is, these aren't my thoughts, by the way, I was talking

31:17

with, uh, Kazra Dash, um, and he

31:20

had an interesting idea. He's like, you know, if

31:22

you've got 10 links on a page and they

31:24

all go to Amazon, they'll go to different products.

31:26

It's not really a doorway page. You

31:29

know, a doorway page, which is on the

31:31

no-no list in the guidelines says you rank

31:33

for specific keywords and then you

31:35

funnel somebody somewhere else to make

31:37

the sale. It's to finish

31:39

the transaction. And that's exactly what affiliate

31:41

sites are doing. So you can

31:44

see that helpful content as one theory

31:46

is really a doorway page update.

31:49

And that what you need to do

31:51

and the reason that brands and e-commerce got through

31:53

that is because those aren't doorway pages, they can,

31:55

they can do the transaction, they're not funneled somewhere else

31:58

to finish the experience. And

32:01

so at that, then really when you think about what

32:04

can we do from an E perspective and what can

32:06

we do for an H, helpful

32:09

content update perspective is

32:12

kind of one of the same. Again, you need to get

32:14

back to that idea of make yourself real, you

32:16

know, make yourself a brand, make it so that

32:18

there is a conversion that can happen on your

32:20

site. And I think the more of that

32:22

you can do, the more trust you're going to build and

32:25

the more likely you are to not just survive, but

32:27

can thrive kind of in this new environment that Google

32:29

has created. That's

32:32

H-C-U as it relates to an affiliate site. How

32:35

about the segment of our audience and the

32:37

segment of the world out there that would

32:39

classify themselves as a content website, right? So

32:43

I'll list off all the stereotypes, but

32:45

like a site that's producing mostly informational

32:47

content, comparison content, content that makes its

32:50

money on advertisements, on a large amount

32:52

of traffic and monetizing through ads and

32:54

maybe a couple of other measures. But

32:57

would say I really don't make much

32:59

money on affiliate sales. I

33:01

don't send much traffic out of my website

33:03

and I still got creamed by the H-C-U.

33:06

But they all do. They all do send traffic

33:08

out. You know, they might be informational,

33:11

but they all have affiliate links. I've yet,

33:13

maybe there are some that don't have

33:15

any, but I have yet to see, I think

33:17

one that the vast majority might be displayed at

33:19

of their revenue. I

33:21

don't doubt that, but I bet they

33:23

have what would be under this definition as doorway

33:25

pages, all of the sites. And

33:28

I bet in their

33:30

source code, they've got more than

33:33

one link out. You know, within, like

33:35

as those things are put in, like

33:37

they've got a whole bunch of links going out

33:40

of their site continually. And

33:42

so, again, I don't know that Google would

33:44

say like, oh, that's clearly an ad. So

33:47

that's not an issue here. It's a link going out

33:49

of your site. Correct. Yeah,

33:51

the good distinction is that ad is still

33:53

clickable, obviously, right? And that's

33:55

going somewhere else. Who is Google? I don't know that

33:58

Google could be like, okay, that's clearly an ad. So

34:00

I'm going to ignore that one. But this one is probably an

34:02

affiliate link. But no, you might be like, I

34:04

only have one affiliate link on this page, but

34:06

you've got seven ads. Well, now you've got eight links going

34:08

out. And actually when you look at the source

34:10

code, there are a lot more than that because you'll see

34:12

multiple. There's more than

34:14

link to Amazon once. Exactly. And

34:16

then there's more than just that one on

34:19

that ad too. There are often multiple links

34:21

as the code is generated. So that those

34:23

eight actually look like 30 in

34:25

some situations where it's just those things stack up all the

34:27

time. It's just link after link after link is what this

34:29

looks like and they're all going out. And

34:31

essentially that's where the transaction will be completed anyway.

34:33

Somebody who's advertising, okay. I

34:35

read this thing and Google probably feels pretty

34:38

good about the content that it's

34:40

giving you in terms of just matching up. I'm like,

34:42

okay, I'll go there to complete my transaction. Essentially, it's

34:45

impossible to distinguish that ad traffic or those

34:47

ad links from just a free link anyway.

34:50

Guy, that is such a good point that is

34:53

so obvious. It's one of those things where you're like, well,

34:55

duh. But I hadn't connected those dots

34:57

until just now. I can't

34:59

take full credit for that. As I said, I was talking with

35:02

Tasra and he's like, aren't these doorway pages? What do you think?

35:04

And I was like, oh my God, I think there's like,

35:06

I usually deal with like doorway pages on

35:08

like the local side more than anything. Like

35:10

where people like, you've got service and then

35:12

cities, you've got 10 of those. And

35:14

they're essentially all the same page. Aren't those doorway pages?

35:17

Because essentially it's duplicate content. You're just changing out.

35:19

You're just ranking for keywords to get

35:21

that. And when I was like, well, no, they're not because you

35:23

can complete the transaction on that page. You

35:26

know, that plumber in all of those different cities that

35:28

you're going after neighborhoods or whatever they might be,

35:30

you can convert because then you call the plumber,

35:32

you know, you get the service. And so

35:34

they're not doorway pages and they're not violating the guidelines.

35:36

And I didn't really kind of put that thought

35:39

together until I spoke with him about, hey,

35:41

you know, essentially the transaction finishes

35:43

off and you're funneling them somewhere else.

35:46

And when you're funneling them somewhere else, that is a doorway page. Why

35:50

did UGC skyrocket so

35:52

much in an HCU

35:55

that is so dependent upon trust?

35:57

What trust components do we get from a 10... year

36:00

old post on Reddit from

36:02

some guy who has no

36:05

expertise and his experience

36:07

that he or she is citing in their

36:09

10 year old post can't be verified in

36:11

any way, shape or form. I'll

36:14

give you one better. A buddy of mine runs one of the

36:16

largest travel websites that's

36:18

independent. So like not part of Conde

36:20

Nast and they're conglomerate, for example. And

36:24

he had this post about the top 50 things to

36:26

do in Seattle. It was written by somebody

36:28

who was born and raised in Seattle and it

36:30

had all of the things to do in

36:32

Seattle and it was an amazing post and ranked number

36:34

one or number two for the longest time.

36:36

He's now sitting, I think, like six or seven or eight

36:38

or something like that. And the one that took over is

36:40

something like this. And the number one thing to in Seattle

36:42

apparently is meth. I

36:44

know exactly who you're talking about. Yeah, I saw

36:47

that. And

36:49

the number two one is a less savory thing

36:51

to do than doing meth. So,

36:56

yeah, there have been there have been some hiccups

37:00

with the helpful content. The baby might have been thrown out

37:02

with the bathwater on that one. And

37:04

that happens with updates. There are

37:07

two things with updates. One is,

37:10

again, they're not doing a value judgment. And I think that

37:12

should hopefully is

37:14

obvious for people. They're not, again, reading this and

37:16

being like, oh, I understand this now. I

37:18

have a better feeling for what this is. Or

37:21

they tweak in their algorithm. That's what's causing this to

37:24

happen. The other thing,

37:26

though, is let's say they do an update

37:28

and there are 80 bad websites

37:30

that they'd like to wipe out just as

37:32

a number. We

37:35

want to do this update because we hate these 80 sites. And

37:37

they do the updates and they knock out 100. They

37:40

got the 80, but then they also swept up 20.

37:44

They were doing it right. They're OK with

37:46

that carnage. They're very

37:48

happy with that. Because the idea is, in

37:50

their minds, we got rid of the 80. I'm sorry about

37:52

those 20, but we got rid of the bigger problem.

37:55

And that's how you see these updates because all the time,

37:57

these updates, they're like, I don't understand why I got hit.

38:00

I'm not doing any of these things. Because you can look at

38:02

all the bad actor sites that got hit. You can see, like,

38:04

OK, I understand why this is. But then why

38:06

did these ones get hit as well?

38:08

And that happens a lot. And just

38:11

I think from Google's mindset, when they roll these updates out,

38:13

when they're trying to do something like that, get rid of

38:15

some sites they hate, they will take out

38:17

sites that are good. And it's just

38:19

part of the equation, of

38:22

the calculus of how they do this. And they're willing to

38:24

accept those losses to get rid of those sites they don't

38:26

like. When

38:29

it comes to the elephant

38:32

in the room question that everyone's going to want me to

38:34

ask, so I'll ask it, the

38:36

affiliate site that got hit by the HCU? The

38:39

content site that we now realize five minutes ago

38:41

looks just like an affiliate site to Google that

38:44

got hit by the HCU? All

38:48

right, so what do we do? You know, like, do

38:50

we, I mean, I'll throw a couple ideas out at

38:52

you because I sit in this community on a daily,

38:54

weekly basis talking to people about this.

38:57

Do we sit and wait and hope they change things

38:59

in 2024 and beyond? Hopefully,

39:02

they understand they overreached. Hopefully, they understand

39:04

that maybe they can correct some of

39:06

the sites that got negatively hit that

39:08

maybe shouldn't have. Number two,

39:11

do we turn ourselves into an e-commerce brand and

39:13

try to figure out how to take our articles

39:16

and our content and our referrals and all that

39:18

and turn it into a brand that sells things?

39:21

Number three, do we just say, oh my

39:23

goodness, I just need to get myself more

39:26

links to become more insulated to

39:28

remove a helpful classifier,

39:32

helpful content classifier that's on us? And

39:35

I could rifle through four or five more, right, that

39:37

we've kind of heard and have gained momentum and stuff.

39:39

But I think a lot of people are trying to

39:41

get some advice on tangible things that they can do

39:43

as they sit in this circumstance for sites that have

39:46

been hit by the HCU. One

39:49

of the problems here is I have not seen

39:51

any recovery. I've seen a

39:53

couple of people mention recoveries, and I've yet to see

39:55

anything with my own eyes, especially as to what they

39:57

may or may not have done. to

40:00

get that recovery, which

40:02

is really very

40:05

frustrating. It's upsetting,

40:08

especially again, I think we're

40:10

talking about the same friend, the same site. That

40:15

site has done everything right. You know, like there's

40:17

so much good on that site and that is the content

40:19

that is helpful and it is excellent

40:21

and well-written and sourced and

40:24

they've done the right things. And then

40:26

when they've, I know they've identified some things that could be better,

40:28

like especially with like maybe how many ads they had on the

40:30

page and stuff like that, they've done all of that and

40:33

they've gone through and freshened up

40:35

content and they've gone through and taken

40:38

this, that and the other out and they haven't

40:40

seen any recovery. And I think because they are

40:42

such a quality site, it doesn't

40:45

give me a lot of hope for a fast

40:47

return where they were doing everything

40:49

as they were supposed to before. They

40:52

probably approved it and that

40:54

hasn't resulted in any recovery.

40:56

And I haven't seen any widespread recovery

41:00

from sites that have been hit. So what

41:02

I would do is I would be thinking

41:04

about how I can make money and

41:09

sitting around and hoping it

41:11

is always a play, but I don't know that's going

41:13

to do much. I don't think that's going to bring

41:15

money. So I would opt for option two and

41:18

I would look at how to get e-commerce going or get

41:20

something going that I can sell so that

41:22

I can make money. I'd be doing it from

41:24

a practical standpoint of I don't know when this

41:26

will revert, if it will revert if

41:29

there's anything that can be done, especially in

41:31

the short term. So I'd be looking at how I can still

41:33

use my site to make money and that

41:35

would be probably building out some sort of brand and building

41:37

out some sort of e-commerce portion to the site. And that's

41:39

what I would focus on. Let

41:41

me give you a scenario. Real life one. I got an

41:44

email about this a month or so ago. Gentlemen

41:48

emailed me, retired early and

41:51

turned into the neighborhood handyman. He

41:54

always likes fixing things, repairing things, he

41:56

likes building things. Ended up starting

41:58

a web, got into SEO. Got

42:00

into content got into writing started a website

42:03

got about 400 articles was getting good

42:05

traffic on various handyman

42:07

topics Does it every

42:09

day has original pictures in there? They're

42:12

not works of art, but they're pictures

42:14

that clearly show he does it They're

42:17

legitimate pictures like pictures legitimate pictures. Yeah, they're

42:19

real pictures. They're from his phone as you

42:21

like underneath the house, you know He's

42:24

by all intents and purposes a handyman

42:26

without a certification without a business without

42:28

these things in his site was Tremendously

42:31

hit by the HCU going back to

42:33

what you just talked about option to

42:36

creating a brand Maybe play

42:38

that example or that scenario out What would you tell

42:40

that person in that scenario because I think there's a

42:42

lot of people listening who could then put their

42:44

scenario Their situation into that example Yeah

42:47

for that create the company, you know,

42:49

I actually get a handyman business thing going

42:52

As much as you can know as much

42:54

as you can possibly do but then I would be

42:57

getting those citations within the handyman listings You

42:59

know, I would be I'd have schema on there

43:01

that I am a handyman business I don't know

43:03

handyman specific schema, but there might be something pretty

43:05

close That they could do

43:07

to identify what type of entity this is what type

43:10

of company this is and that's what

43:12

I would do I've created a brand out of it. I've created

43:14

company out of it as much Get

43:16

a Google business profile get all those people you did

43:18

you help all the neighbors that you helped with having

43:20

to go review Your handyman business. Absolutely what I would

43:23

do For

43:25

sure, like make yourself real make

43:27

yourself a brand make yourself a company and that's exactly what

43:30

I do in that situation You

43:32

talked about links as a part of

43:34

the HC as a part of the

43:36

EAT. Sorry. I'm I'm leading with that

43:38

question already Terrible

43:42

you're not supposed to do that the podcast host Let

43:46

me tell you the answer I want real quick But

43:51

I did it there so Anyways, got to the

43:54

bank you talked about links and how we didn't talk about

43:56

them last time is it related to EAT You

43:59

did talk about how how links are a part of EEAT.

44:03

And let's talk about links

44:05

as it relates to the HCU then. I mean,

44:08

Spencer and I have talked on this podcast

44:10

a lot about how it does seem that

44:12

higher DR sites, right? Sites with a lot

44:14

more links seem to be on a different

44:16

playing field or at least evaluated differently when

44:18

it comes to the HCU by and large

44:20

compared to sites with less links. So what's

44:23

the role of links in all this with the HCU

44:25

from what you can see? Yeah,

44:28

that's one of the things where you can't do

44:30

one thing and neglect the other in a field.

44:32

You can't be like, I'm just gonna do build

44:34

links and not worry about my content or what's

44:36

on. I'm gonna do only content. I'm not gonna

44:38

get any links. There has to be that

44:40

balance between those two things. I still

44:42

think you don't need a ton of links because again,

44:45

I don't really like

44:47

to look at authority with DR, I like to look

44:49

at authority with number of terms they're ranking for. You

44:52

know, and I think that is a better metric but

44:54

you can't really see that from the outside. You can't

44:56

really see that through third party tools very well. But

45:00

what I think I'd be more interested

45:02

in than getting high DR with links is I'd make

45:04

sure that my site is growing in key words. Sites

45:06

that are growing that are obtaining more and more

45:09

key words are healthy sites. That's an indicator that

45:11

you're doing things very well and Google likes you.

45:13

Where I would start to be concerned is

45:16

when that plateaus and starts to dip, you

45:18

start losing key words. You know, that's where

45:20

I think then you're losing authority, authority is going down. So

45:24

I wouldn't necessarily clue in on DR but

45:26

that is a byproduct of the whole thing,

45:28

right? But I would make

45:30

sure that I've got a plan in place that I'm getting

45:32

key words. I can see that through my

45:34

own search console and I'm tracking that. My

45:36

pages are getting key words, the site is getting key words

45:39

and you can see that upward trend. What

45:41

that also means is that you're gonna be producing

45:44

regular content. You can't just kind of set and

45:46

forget on the content and I

45:48

think that also means you need to be very intentional with the content

45:50

that you post. You can't really just post something

45:52

for the sake of posting that there needs to be a

45:54

reason behind it. What are we trying to rank

45:56

for with this term? What's this page going to support?

45:58

How does it factor in? into at the

46:01

end of the day of getting more keywords, which would then

46:03

increase your authority. So I think

46:05

the DRs are byproduct of that. I think a truer

46:07

measure of authority is the amount of keywords you're aiming

46:09

for. And if I were focusing, that's what I would

46:11

focus on rather than necessarily getting wins just to move

46:13

up my D.R. Yep,

46:16

so chicken, kind of chicken, chicken the

46:18

egg scenario there, but if you're, yeah.

46:20

I see where you're going with it. Yeah, I see where you're

46:22

going with that. This

46:25

might seem like a little bit of an outlier, but as we

46:27

bring this to a close, I wanted to make sure I got

46:29

this question in because I do see it a lot. And

46:33

in the new H.C.U. world that we live in,

46:36

how important is frequently updating content? Because

46:38

I think that people are satiated to

46:40

the fact they need to be updating

46:42

their content. They understand that there's a

46:44

balance for the vast majority of websites

46:46

between publishing new content and updating content,

46:49

but I think there's a big gray

46:51

area, back to charcoal gray, big

46:53

gray area into how frequently do I need

46:55

to be updating this? Like, I

46:58

guess I'll just leave it at that. So

47:01

if I spent a

47:03

lot of time on a page to try to get

47:05

it to run, you know, I really dove in and

47:08

I did all my on-page with

47:10

my tools that I use for on-page, and I

47:12

did content together and I

47:14

built out silos for this, or I've done my

47:16

topic clusters, whatever, conical, whatever you like to do, and

47:19

I've got that all dialed in, and then I did some outreach

47:21

for it. So I've got

47:24

things going and it's going well, right? So that type of thing.

47:27

You have to monitor that at least quarterly, because

47:29

as a Google update happens, as new competitors

47:31

come in, the goalposts will shift as to

47:33

what you need to do. So

47:35

you have to have some form of monitoring of

47:38

that, and I think that quarterly is a minimum,

47:40

but when you do see those tweaks, or

47:43

when you do see those changes, you will have to

47:45

tweak something a little bit, and when you do tweak,

47:48

that'll give you new modifications, that'll make the content fresh.

47:50

You don't have to tweak more than one word for

47:52

it to, you know, to update. But

47:54

I would imagine as you go through this process for

47:57

your most important pages, and get at least quarterly, you

47:59

wanna do that. So that you are

48:02

staying in line with what Google is rewarding and

48:04

then you're also then as you do that your page will be fresh

48:07

So I would do whatever you can

48:09

do. I can make some suggestion. They're very

48:11

self-promoting on that. But um You

48:14

want something like that in place and that's how I would

48:16

approach kind of that idea of how

48:18

should we do this? Or how should we

48:20

keep these pages fresh? I would keep them fresh so

48:22

that I'm in line with what Google is rewarding not

48:24

necessarily for the sake of the freshest Yeah,

48:27

yeah, so you're saying almost like there

48:29

might not be a tremendous Amount

48:32

that needs to get added from a necessity standpoint

48:34

But the fact that you need to continually show

48:36

Google that you have at least checked the article

48:39

It can only be shown to them by

48:41

updating the article. That's right. Exactly, right again

48:44

chicken in the egg But it's like you need to be fresh

48:46

But they also be need to be in line with what Google

48:48

is rewarding and that's where you see like that content brought happen

48:50

We're like, hey, we're doing great. I mean just kind of see

48:53

this slow Yeah, yeah,

48:55

but nothing was done to the page It

48:57

wasn't updated to where these terms

48:59

to be now things do shift a little

49:01

bit entities might new entities might come to

49:04

play They're slightly new content. You put into

49:06

it different important terms Then

49:08

that gives you that freshness. So you're kind of

49:10

maintaining what Google is rewarding and also showing people

49:12

the fresh renew Is

49:15

there anything about the relationship

49:18

to ee at to the

49:20

hcu? It's anything we didn't cover that you think

49:22

is really important to close on No

49:27

You know the whole thing with each, you know going back Back

49:30

to medic all the way back was to make yourself

49:32

real You know like make yourself as

49:34

real as you can and make yourself as really handle a

49:37

bot and that hasn't changed Now

49:39

what we understand that to be from Google's

49:41

perspective that has changed a little bit and

49:43

our knowledge expanded on what perhaps they're looking

49:45

for but really as I said

49:47

before the framework you need to have is Okay,

49:50

there's my companies online

49:53

that company over there is a brick and mortar. What are

49:55

they doing? What do they look like? You

49:57

know and then looks for things that are online to make

49:59

yourself look like like that as much as you can.

50:01

And that's I think the right framework to think about

50:03

these things, make yourself real, make yourself real

50:05

that a bot can find that. It's not,

50:08

not that a human can look at me like, Oh, this is a great website. I get

50:10

it. This is all right. But that a

50:12

bot can make that evaluation through the different signals that

50:14

it can find. That's really the most important thing. If

50:17

I had to summarize the last hour, I would

50:19

say be real and be a brand. Yeah.

50:23

Yeah. And then, um, yeah,

50:25

get, get conversions on your site. Make

50:27

it so that people can convert there. You know,

50:29

whatever that might be. Yeah. But the more

50:31

of that you can do, I think the better. Well,

50:34

Kyle, um, where are

50:37

the places that people can go to

50:39

learn more about the

50:41

things you offer? Um, uh,

50:44

specifically the, um, well,

50:47

the courses you have, we talked about it last time, but we haven't given

50:49

much time to that right now. Where can people go to learn more about

50:51

that? Oh, that's IMG

50:53

dot courses. Oh, let's find

50:55

new TLD. Makes

50:58

it so easy. I think it's

51:00

a, like one of the last, last one. Yeah.

51:02

We have IMG dot courses. Um, you can go in

51:05

there. Uh, I actually have a brand new course, but

51:07

it's kind of like a little mini version of a

51:09

few of my other courses in a, like where to

51:11

start with SEO. So if you're kind of like, I'm

51:13

kind of new to this or maybe

51:16

I missed something. It's only like, I think like a 10 part. So

51:18

that's on there. That's fun. I think go

51:20

to page optimizer.pro. That's my page

51:23

tool. We have had an

51:25

eat tool and we might be, I don't know if anybody

51:27

else really does, but we've had an eat tool for the

51:29

last four years, um, three

51:31

and a half, four years. And, uh, so we've been

51:34

extensively studying the signals and the things that a bot

51:36

can find. And so we do have that as well.

51:39

And if I can get pitchy for a second, um,

51:41

we do have a watchdog feature where

51:43

if you've done the work, you

51:45

click the watchdog and we monitor the service for you.

51:47

And when there are changes, you know, there's been an update

51:49

or do competitors come in, you get an email alert. Hey, these things

51:51

have happened and you might want to change these terms. You might want

51:53

to have these terms so that can help you

51:56

kind of solve that question. How do we keep this pressure? How

51:58

do we monitor this or how we stay on top? these

52:00

pages that we've taken the time to optimize. I

52:03

built that for me. It solved my problem. Now,

52:08

there's a podcast host doing a good

52:11

job because I got you a question without even

52:13

realizing that you actually had something to address. How often

52:15

do you need to update a page? There it

52:17

is. There it is. I solved it.

52:19

I solved it. I

52:22

solved it for myself because it was a problem

52:24

that I had. We've got, say, these clients, we've

52:27

done 30 pages. We can't keep eyeballs

52:29

on 30 pages. You can monitor rankings, but that's

52:31

not really the same thing. You

52:33

will need to monitor rankings, but this monitors the actual serves.

52:36

Hey, there are two new competitors that's coming and they

52:38

seem to be doing pretty well. They moved you down

52:40

a spot. What do you need

52:43

to do? It looks like there's been an update. These

52:45

new types of sites are showing up. What

52:47

can you do? Here's some things you can do. That's

52:50

what we needed for ourselves. Now,

52:52

it's in the tool. Kyle,

52:54

another good one. I'll

52:57

talk to Spence about which building we want to name after you. Perfect.

53:00

I'll just take a chair, something small. Something

53:02

small. Okay. Yeah, you're right. You got to hit

53:04

10 podcast episodes before you get a building. I

53:06

think I shot too high there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

53:08

That's too high. That's too high. That's too much.

53:10

I'm not into it. I don't do the building

53:12

naming around these parts, so that's probably why. Hey,

53:14

thank you again. Always good to have you. Always

53:16

good to see you. Everybody

53:19

loves when you come on and

53:21

I'm sure this one will be no different. Until

53:24

next time. Appreciate it. Yeah. I look

53:26

forward to it. Like I said, this is my favorite. Thanks

53:28

so much. You're too kind. Thank

53:30

you. Thanks

53:33

for joining us today on the podcast. Just

53:36

a final reminder that it was brought to

53:38

you by Search Intelligence. If

53:40

you're looking for link building

53:42

PR campaigns for your website,

53:44

just head over to search-intelligence.co.uk

53:46

and get in touch with

53:49

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55:00

you