0:01

It's to forty seven am

0:04

in the Southern Reach and

0:06

you're listening to Night Cole Hi.

0:17

I'm Test Lynch in Los Angeles, and with

0:19

me are Lolly Lambard. And in

0:22

New York, I'm Emily Oshita. Welcome

0:24

back tonight, Call you guys. Um.

0:26

We have a very exciting podcast

0:29

for you today. But we're going to kick off with the

0:31

most important topic, which is Kim

0:34

Kardashian Always Otaku

0:38

Kim Kardashian and Taku notice

0:40

me sent pie. Kim

0:43

Kardashian has been doing a lot of Instagram

0:45

posting recently since having her

0:48

baby Chicago, and people

0:50

have been noticing that they're sort of increasingly

0:52

thirst trappy with what she's

0:54

been doing, where it's just like

0:56

something more crazy each time, or

0:59

more trying to get attention. E people

1:01

are surmising that she feels

1:04

insecure about Kylie surpassing

1:06

her. That's the number one Kardassian and

1:08

now also the number one Kardashian mom.

1:11

So well, actually there's only one number one Kardashian

1:14

mom, and you know it's Chris Theo

1:17

is not a Kardashian. It's

1:19

true, but let's be real. She's the ultimate.

1:22

She's the Queen. I thought you're gonna say Courtney, but

1:25

I do love Courtney's Like Courtney is the only one who seems

1:27

like maybe Chill and mom Secretly

1:30

Chill. I feel a little disconnected from things

1:32

because I can't understand how anybody,

1:35

especially somebody within her own family,

1:37

would find Kylie's circumstances

1:41

and motherhood right now to be in any

1:43

way enviable. But that's

1:45

just me. It's

1:48

sexy to have a baby when you're

1:50

a billionaire, billionaire

1:52

babies just to

1:54

prove you can do it exactly.

1:56

I mean, you know, I'm trying to be

1:59

open minded, but she did put

2:01

a Snapchat filter on the first picture

2:03

of the baby, and I was like, this baby is doomed.

2:06

Don't you say that about all the babies at various

2:08

points, like didn't we probably say that about Kendall and Kylie?

2:11

And like the first season of Me Again,

2:14

Like now, I'm like, that's so like they didn't

2:16

have a Snapchat filter on their infant

2:19

photos. That really made

2:21

me go, huh or a

2:23

new world now. I

2:25

saw a story the other day that was

2:28

about people bringing in Snapchat filter

2:30

selfies to plastic surgeons. It's apparently

2:32

really common now and they come out with roses

2:35

growing on their forehead. Yes, sparkles

2:37

and spangles on their weird dilated

2:39

pupils. Yeah. Yeah, they're like, I want to look

2:41

at like, make me

2:44

look like this, dear filter, I

2:46

want to be a deer. Um. So,

2:48

Kim Kardashian posted on her Instagram

2:51

she now has pink hair. That's her new her new

2:53

uh Instagram stunt is that she got pink

2:55

hair. And she posted a picture of

2:57

an anime babe with pink

2:59

hair, and so this was my inspiration. Yeah,

3:02

and uh, Emily, I'll

3:05

defer to you as the expert um

3:07

anime podcaster. Yeah,

3:09

what do you think it means? What do

3:12

I think it means? Well, I mean I think we

3:14

discussed this maybe on a group chat

3:16

that obviously well, I mean, I

3:18

won't rule out the fact that that Kim enjoys

3:21

herself some automy on her own, but I feel

3:23

like, definitely Kanye has made

3:25

her watch a Kira at some point. That

3:27

has definitely happened at some point in their

3:30

relationship. Um, and where she chose

3:32

to go with her fandom and interest

3:34

in the medium from

3:36

there is uh, you know, anyone's guests.

3:39

But I do think that right now there is I

3:42

would be more shocked about

3:44

Kim embracing on me or

3:47

even taking style cues from Automy at

3:49

any other time, but right now I feel like it

3:51

is. Uh there's a wave right

3:53

now of celebrities coming out of their otaku

3:56

closets. But aren't you glad about it?

3:58

Because at least it's like reclaiming it back

4:00

from the alt right, who we were

4:02

concerned had sort of taken over anime

4:04

avatars. Yes, they try to

4:06

take over everything, but they're not taking anime. Yes,

4:09

I mean I am I am a d percent for

4:11

that. I'm a hundred percent for Michael

4:13

B. Jordan's um talking about Naruto

4:16

UM in an interview. I mean, it's

4:18

it's it's very it's very endearing.

4:21

Or are you such a snob that you're like it devalues

4:23

my Naruto fandom now that you're going

4:25

to funk about Naruto like, uh,

4:29

he can have it, But it's it's still

4:31

very sweet, like and I've I

4:34

like to like just I mean, it could be

4:36

Fraser, you know. I like to imagine beautiful

4:39

celebrities at home watching

4:41

Netflix, watching you

4:44

know, Pokemon or

4:46

whatever in their free time. That's very

4:48

that makes me feel like, I, you know, they're

4:50

one of us. You have a generous spirit.

4:53

Well, I mean I don't. Yeah, it's hard

4:55

for me to be snobby about on me because I'm like,

4:57

you know, I've I've explained this. I used to explain

4:59

this on the podcast that I used to have it. I'm not like

5:01

a like expert by any

5:04

means. I don't know what that character is that Kim

5:06

posted and I didn't look it up actually

5:08

in time for this podcast, which I probably should have done.

5:11

But uh, you know, it's

5:13

it's cool, like I

5:16

I don't know, I'm not mad at it. Uh, And

5:18

I feel like it's just about growth

5:20

of the fact that all these shows are so much easier

5:23

to watch now than they were like when we were when

5:25

we were teen. Yeah,

5:28

so you know, it's accessible and it just couldn

5:30

like, you know, absorb itself into the

5:32

culture a little more easily than it could

5:34

have a while ago. It's just fright

5:36

and cool. Like well, last week we talked

5:38

about Phantom Thread, but not in time

5:41

for the podcast. Molly got a

5:43

text from her friend illuminating

5:45

a theory that we all thought was really interesting.

5:47

So we wanted to just jump back so that we

5:49

could kind of explore this

5:52

theory. So, uh,

5:54

Phantom of the Theory time UM.

5:57

Friend of the podcast, Gil Keenan,

5:59

who is also a director

6:02

from the San Fernando Valley UM,

6:04

told me that he had to fandom throwd theory. He would let me

6:07

in on after I saw the movie. So when

6:09

I asked him what it was, I will read it.

6:11

He texted it to me. He said, oh, just

6:14

that Alma is a camp survivor. Her

6:16

parents were killed there. She made it to England

6:18

after the war, and the recent memory of the loss

6:20

is what makes her so strangely numb, but

6:22

also equipped to handle Woodcock and whose

6:24

gestapo sister. Also,

6:27

she becomes weirdly animated by the disrespect

6:29

that the old rich lady shows to the dress. After

6:31

the press conference scene where the fit press asked

6:34

the fiance about his family's involvement in

6:36

his scandal involving Jewish visas, m

6:42

and I wrote back, Oh, it's the night Porter,

6:46

which is my answer to everything. It

6:49

was interesting to kind of. I think Molly dived

6:52

deep, as did I into the into

6:54

finding ways to justify this theory.

6:56

But I'll let Molly go

6:58

first. And Emily, I bet you of your own thoughts,

7:01

but it was it was thought provoking because that

7:03

the Jewish visas thing really stood out

7:05

in the movie as being like

7:07

very specific information that was kind

7:10

of dropped and then not really

7:12

revisited. So I think it's stuck out to

7:14

all of us as being kind of strange. Yeah.

7:16

I mean, also if Paul Thomas Anderson wants to call us

7:19

and be like, you know nothing of my work, like we

7:22

just give us anything we

7:24

like to theorize. But

7:26

you know, I'm also willing to accept

7:28

that this might not be true at all. But

7:31

um, Emily, what did you think? Um?

7:33

Well, I mean, I I really like the

7:35

theory. I think I think it would explain

7:38

I think I would explain her resistance

7:40

to Reynolds and

7:43

Cyril if she was forced

7:45

into the situation, like if she was hired as

7:47

a maid or something like that. But

7:49

she's you know, she's drawn to her herself.

7:51

It's not just a resisting of a thing. It's like

7:53

she's actually attracted to

7:56

there. They're just stop

7:58

at ways. Well to the night Porter comes

8:01

in. Yeah, well, yeah, so

8:03

I feel like I

8:05

don't know, I would I would need a little more psychological

8:09

back up there. As far as I said she

8:11

could stand forever. Yeah, because

8:14

she has the resilience. Did as

8:17

the Robert gray Smith did

8:19

a lot of real research and came

8:21

back with much information

8:23

that I don't know if it supports

8:25

the theory, but there's there's some interest. I kind

8:27

of went down a rabbit hole and found like some

8:30

weird some weird threads, if you

8:32

will. So one thing that I found,

8:34

um that was interesting from Nylon.

8:36

It doesn't address the you

8:39

know, Holocaust in particular,

8:41

but it is interesting visa

8:43

VI that scene. So it The

8:46

article says one of Woodcock's most important

8:48

clients is the heiress Barbara Rose. Anderson

8:51

gives hair is only four scenes in the Phantom Thread,

8:53

and they're not long in terms of length, but it seems

8:56

that Barbara Rose is like a message stitched

8:58

into the fabric of the narrative, and

9:00

her appearance feels crucial to understanding

9:02

the rather obscure meanings of the movie.

9:04

Oh yes, it does so. Basically

9:08

though her first name is Barbara, you know,

9:10

it didn't occur to me that Harris was playing a role

9:13

based on the Woolworth heiress Barbara Hutton

9:15

until her second scene. This is all quoted

9:17

from Nylon by the way where Anderson stages,

9:20

Barbara Rosa is humiliating press conference

9:22

announcing her marriage to a noted playboy

9:24

who is clearly meant to be the infamous Porferrio

9:27

ruber Rosa. So then there's a

9:29

Vanity Fair profile and ruber Rosa. It

9:31

says um that he was unable to

9:34

return to his country because

9:36

he was basically, you know, he

9:39

would he had been selling Dominican visas

9:41

to Jews wishing to flee Europe and had been

9:43

kind of found out. And Barbara Hutton

9:45

was the poor little rich girl that would

9:47

you know, for every poor little rich

9:49

girl movie and book has been based

9:52

on Um. So she was kind of

9:54

like a sad sack. She I think she got married six

9:56

times or something and at

9:58

one point was married to a grant Like

10:00

she was a really kind of bizarre

10:03

and like sad person who squandered

10:05

her fortune. Yeah, this is the thing I was talking about

10:07

last week, but I couldn't remember the names of them.

10:09

So yeah, there's a lot of further reading

10:11

on Barbara Hutton and Porfirio

10:15

Um on the internet to be found.

10:17

I think several people. I think there's a

10:20

piece on Vanity Fair about it. As well. Yes,

10:22

that was there was a vanity there's a nylon piece

10:24

in the Vanity Fair piece about Barbara Hutton too.

10:27

I also found some interesting things

10:29

about people who

10:31

were sewing secret

10:33

messages into needlework while

10:36

they were in Nazi camps. Um.

10:38

There was a guy named Alexis

10:41

Castalli and he was

10:43

he would add secret messages to the

10:45

stuff that he was sewing. Um in morse

10:48

code around you know, some

10:50

piece of needlework. He wrote, funk Hitler.

10:53

And then there was also um the

10:55

case there were like all of these women who

10:57

were working under Hedwig

11:00

Pois, who was the wife

11:02

of a concentration camp commander,

11:04

and she had a dressmaking workshop where they would

11:06

do hoach culture um

11:09

and kind of like make these

11:11

gowns for for you know, Nazi

11:13

events. Um. And there was

11:16

a book about it that I guess then was adapted into

11:18

a young adult novel by a woman named Lucy

11:20

ad Linton. But had said

11:22

that there's a I pulled a quote

11:24

from an article in the Express

11:27

about this, but it says the clients even

11:29

came to the concentration camp camp

11:31

workshops for fittings and consultations,

11:33

all part of what ad Linton calls the repulsive

11:36

mock civilization of the Nazi regime. One

11:38

of the Auschwitz seamstresses, a Slovakian

11:40

dressmaker named Lulu Gruenberg, could

11:43

barely control her resentment at the indifference

11:45

and arrogance of the women for whom she was making

11:47

clothes to survive. Okay,

11:49

that's just super interesting. I went away down

11:51

the hole on this. That also sounds like

11:54

like that does sound like made for a novel.

11:56

Also, I believe that there is a novel based on that.

11:59

That's fascinating. Someone like make

12:01

a movie about that. Yeah, I know somewhere in the

12:03

article they said they were sewing for their lives,

12:05

like they were trying to prove their talent and like,

12:07

you know, worth to be kept around, and all

12:09

the Nazi things where they made people like do

12:12

creative stuff to like prove that they should

12:14

survive, like the musicians. You know.

12:16

It's that's the scariest. It is

12:18

the scariest thing. I don't know why, I mean, I

12:20

do know why. It's strange that all. I mean,

12:22

it's it's interesting that you can kind of

12:24

find these weird, you know,

12:27

articles that that seemed to relate

12:29

to the phantoms I mean it's definitely about

12:32

a certain time, and then you get into like the seamstresses

12:34

and the hidden messages being sewed into things. But

12:37

it's it was interesting the passports

12:40

or the visa line being

12:42

like this weird clue and you think

12:44

you're going to follow it and find something

12:46

concrete, but you but it is a phantom

12:49

threat. It's

12:51

merely a phantom thread. So

12:54

let's take a night call. And as

12:56

always, if you want to leave us a night call,

12:58

you can give us a call at one two four oh

13:00

four six night that's one

13:03

two four oh four six night. Or you can

13:05

email us at Night Call Podcast

13:07

at gmail dot com. Which other

13:09

whichever method do you prefer, is

13:11

a okay with us, and just leave us your questions,

13:15

theories, comments, just your thoughts

13:17

and we will will address

13:19

them on air. So we have a call

13:21

today about

13:24

a little movie that I think we've

13:26

all seen. Let's see. Hey,

13:29

this is Charlie in Texas. It

13:31

is twelve oh five am,

13:35

true night call hours. I

13:37

just got out of the screening of Annihilation,

13:40

which fucking ruled everyone should go see

13:42

it. Um,

13:45

But I notice this is like the third time

13:47

in a row where I've seen a movie

13:50

and Jennifer Jason Lee randomly

13:52

popped up and

13:54

it made the movie a lot better. So

13:57

I was wondering if there's any actors

13:59

or act is that you, guys, you

14:01

rarely pop up in movies that

14:03

you never will bring a good time? All

14:06

right, thanks, So I

14:08

really appreciate Charlie's p s a to

14:11

go see Annihilation, a

14:13

movie that I quite like spoiler

14:16

alert, But um, I fear

14:18

that it might be a little too late for

14:20

it, seeing as I think it's like maybe

14:23

still in five theaters in the United States

14:25

by the time you're hearing this podcast. Um.

14:28

But yes, Jennifer Jason Lee is

14:30

in it, and she's very

14:32

scary and weird in it, and

14:34

uh, I'm I'm a fan of Jennifer

14:37

Jason Lee, and I feel like it isn't I

14:39

feel like she rarely pops up, though I'm usually

14:41

very aware that Jennifer dationally is going to be a movie

14:43

before I see it. I had a spooky experience because

14:46

I had no idea she was in this movie, and

14:48

my mind was wandering and I was

14:50

for some reason thinking about, like, hey,

14:53

it's so weird that No bom

14:55

Bach was married to Jennifer Jason Lee

14:58

and it is now Date's greta girl right And

15:00

then like as I was thinking it was like, then

15:03

she appeared on willed

15:05

Her and I like was so weird it out because

15:07

I was like, I don't normally just think

15:10

about Jennifer ducing Lee. But I was

15:12

also I was so happy to see

15:14

her, um, and she really brought

15:17

me back into the movie. She was fantastic in that.

15:19

But wait, what what actors are you

15:21

guys always happy to see um Luise

15:24

Gusman. Yeah, that's

15:26

a great one. Um. I kept

15:28

trying to think of people and I just ended up coming back

15:31

to everybody in the Paddington movies. Jim

15:34

Broadbent is a big one for me. Um. I

15:36

love a Jim Broadbent cameo slash

15:38

appearance. You know who used to be

15:40

one for me or like, I mean he is no longer with us

15:42

our I p but um, when

15:44

he appears in kind of if I'm watching an

15:47

oldie or some you know, kind of

15:50

b list thing I've never seen before, if Pete postal Weight

15:52

shows up in something, I'm always really into that. Oh

15:55

yeah, well that also leads us into this

15:57

this Danny Boyle Yes conversation

16:00

tonight can I say mine because

16:02

I have too, Sorry, Danny Boyle, affiliated

16:05

Yes, mine

16:07

are Martin Maull because he

16:10

was in an episode of Taxi and he

16:12

was also in an episode of The Golden Girls,

16:14

and like, I remember both of them, and then

16:16

I was I was looking. I was like, oh, you

16:19

know what's his wikipedia And it's just

16:21

like full of those things. And then also

16:23

Richard Maser, we've ever seen

16:25

Fernwood Tonight. No, that

16:27

is the best show in the world. Uh,

16:30

and kind of what I want night called to be, like what

16:33

it's like a spinoff of Mary Hartman. Mary

16:35

Hartman. Oh, yeah,

16:38

that's all I'll say. Fernwood Tonight,

16:40

That's what I calls very Friendwood Tonight inspired.

16:43

Let's talk Annihilation. Let's talk about Annihilation.

16:46

I wish Martin Maull had been in an He

16:48

should have. Maybe he was maybe he was double

16:51

Emily. I'm going to break your heart right now. Okay,

16:54

go for it. Test

16:56

and I did not love Annihilation as much as

16:58

you did. I think, well, you

17:00

test actively disliked it. I

17:03

was more more kind. I

17:05

think I liked a lot of things about it, and I thought

17:07

about it a lot afterwards. Um,

17:09

we also sell it at eleven in the morning. That's

17:12

the best time to see any movie. I'm a

17:14

huge fan of watching movies in the morning. Your mind

17:16

is open, you're not all tired and jaded

17:18

yet. So you know, I feel like this

17:20

was more of a nightcall movie, movie

17:23

you might want to watch at night. Well

17:26

yeah, I mean, for sure

17:29

spoiler alert about the swirling

17:31

guts and seen in this movie

17:35

twenty in the morning. But you know, we had meet

17:37

us appreciate it more. I think it's our

17:39

guts were still swirling with breakfast,

17:41

and then we're like, oh, look at look at that.

17:43

That's when I turned to Tests and I went, I'm in yeah.

17:48

Um. Test is also not swayed by the charms

17:50

of Oscar Isaac like some of us might be.

17:53

Look, I appreciate his acting. It's purely

17:56

it's a sexual preference, like right

17:58

now, oh my god, I know you're not sexually

18:01

attracted to young al Pacino. He's just not

18:03

well. I didn't say that specifically, there's

18:07

just something I guess because I know everyone

18:10

else feels that way. I'm like, well, let them

18:12

have him. But I appreciate his acting. Although

18:14

he didn't do much in Annihilation,

18:17

it was which was great. It was a female

18:19

dominated sci fi movie, which is fantastic.

18:21

Everybody was really excited before the movie

18:23

came out because he was only billed as being the

18:25

husband and I am DV and everybody

18:28

was like, yes, Oscar

18:30

Isaac is the husband. Um,

18:34

yeah, it was weird how much. I mean, first

18:36

of all, I'm glad test and I both saw it because there's

18:39

no way you could possibly explain this movie

18:41

and the amount of time we have on a podcast to

18:44

each other and also to the audience,

18:46

So we should probably decide how what level of spoiler

18:49

we want to go with it, because I actually, I mean, my

18:51

favorite aspect of it is the end, and that's

18:54

the part that I could talk about the most. Well, that's

18:56

how we'll get there. So Annihilation is

18:58

a sci fi uh movie

19:00

about a team of scientists

19:02

going to a area you're

19:05

not supposed to go to, some sort of

19:07

contaminated area, Area X.

19:09

I feel like the distinction is sort of weird in the

19:12

movie. In the book, it's all called

19:14

Area X. They also call it

19:16

the Shimmer in the movie, but they also refer to Area

19:19

X as like maybe a reason that contains

19:21

the ship shimmer. It's very strange. It's like a

19:23

weird southern swamp. Yeah,

19:25

it's it's supposed to be in Florida somewhere.

19:27

It's based on a book by Jeff Vandermere. There's three.

19:29

There's a trilogy of books that's based on the first one.

19:32

But it's very much meant to just be a self

19:34

contained movie. I think. Yeah, And it's different. It's

19:36

very different from the book supposably, Um,

19:39

but there are some things that are the same. Test

19:41

and I both brought notes right,

19:44

can't wait. I it

19:47

made me want to go home and watch Tarkovsky's

19:50

Stalker, which I did. Oh yeah. And then

19:52

my friend gave me a hard time about watching Stalker

19:55

on a laptop. I

19:58

was like, but I was really close to the screw going

20:03

on. You have a projector at home. Yeah,

20:05

but I was like, like, I was

20:07

watching it by myself, like you

20:10

know, I was. It was great.

20:12

It wasn't super enjoyable for me. Um.

20:15

And then I was reading about Soviet sci fi

20:17

all night long? Ye, which

20:19

is the best. Well. Stalker is the

20:22

only movie that Alex Garland, the director,

20:24

has owned up to being inspired by

20:26

because he I think like I

20:28

think understandably bristles at

20:30

like the thing of like, what things

20:32

were you looking for for your movie, because I think especially

20:35

people who are trying to do like newish sci fi,

20:37

you want to feel like you're trying to Yeah, it's

20:39

a it's a tribute slash rip off of

20:41

Stalker. But that's the one thing he was

20:43

like, Yeah, Tarkovsky, definitely, it's

20:46

a trip off. Um. And

20:48

yeah, and also Solaris,

20:50

which is the other Tarkovsky movie which I saw

20:53

recently. I saw like a beautiful new Stalker.

20:56

There's also like a new Criterion print of it that's

20:59

yeah, sucking all so um.

21:01

But Solaris, which is based

21:03

on a novel by the Polish writer

21:05

Lim Standis law. Uh, it's

21:07

sort of invented the sci fi concept of like the aliens

21:10

being like instead of being little gray men or

21:13

tall grays or little green men, they it's

21:15

like a planet or like a gas.

21:17

It's like a consciousness. It's like a consciousness

21:19

and you like can't communicate with it at all

21:22

because so for it, Yeah, um,

21:24

the Solaris is a planet that watches you

21:27

the state of mind. So yeah,

21:29

Test and I both really like a lot

21:31

of the ideas that are in Annihilation.

21:34

Um. I just felt like the characterization and dialogue

21:36

was like felt really flat. Yeah, yeah,

21:38

I mean I definitely think that it was. It's

21:41

hard because you kind of place all your hopes

21:43

on when you see five women who

21:45

are scientists or I mean, I guess

21:47

one is an e M T. But I mean they're there are

21:50

five strong women who are not like

21:52

being shepherded by a man, or

21:54

being sent on this mission by a man. In fact,

21:56

like you know, venturous dr Ventrous,

21:59

who's Jennifer Jason Lee. She's kind

22:01

of portrayed like you would.

22:04

It's a shame that you would normally see

22:06

men playing these roles, but I felt as

22:08

though they could have intellectualized

22:11

them more. And I was telling Molly

22:13

that it made me really nostalgic

22:15

for the original Jurassic Park and Ian

22:17

Malcolm because I remember reading the

22:20

book and seeing the movie the explanation of

22:22

the science and his you know,

22:24

drive to kind of wrap his mind around it.

22:26

Was a lot of screen time was devoted to

22:28

him kind of unpacking it, and I felt

22:30

as though that was something that was kind

22:32

of neglected And I don't know if it is in

22:35

the book as well, but we're just supposed

22:37

to accept that, Okay, So d N A

22:39

is refracted like through a prism,

22:41

and it's like, but what does that mean?

22:44

And then you see that it can, you know, you can

22:47

kind of transfer your DNA

22:49

via touch that you become contaminated.

22:51

Your DNA is seeping out all over the place

22:54

and mingling with plants and becoming a fungus.

22:56

And I thought it was interesting, but it seemed like

23:00

not satisfying to not have at

23:02

least one of these very

23:04

accomplished scientists trying

23:06

to give a more thorough

23:09

explanation, Like it felt like a blind

23:11

spot that we were just expected to accept,

23:14

and it bothered me. Well, the only the

23:16

only one of them who is a scientist

23:18

who would be equipped to

23:20

explain it is Natalie Portman's character

23:22

is a biologist. The other ones, there's a physicist,

23:25

the physicist, yeah, Tessa Thompson, Yeah

23:27

yeah, And I mean then there's also a psychologist

23:30

who or I don't know if she's a psychologist or psychiatrist,

23:33

but I mean, spoiler

23:35

alert, it's weird that the physicist gets

23:37

the biology death exactly and

23:40

Tessa neverre also bothered that Tessa Thompson's

23:42

character who turns into a plant spoiler

23:45

spoiler they don't show you that she

23:47

turned into a kind of

23:49

off then you never see her again and it's very creepy

23:51

and wickermanny. But you're also just like waiting for

23:54

the shot of money plant and

23:56

I don't show it, and then I

23:58

don't know, really wanted to see it also made

24:00

me want her to play poison Ivy. Yes, well

24:04

so, so the thing about the book is that they

24:06

actually have more character flashing

24:08

out in the movie than they do in the book. They're

24:11

pretty much like Cipher's. We

24:13

saw it with a friend who had read the book and he was like, they're

24:15

even more like Ciphers. And they don't have names

24:17

in the book. They're just called well the different

24:19

positions too. They have like the surveyor the

24:22

anthropologists. The linguist is

24:24

one of them. There's no linguist in this one,

24:26

um, which is because the whole thing that the linguist

24:29

is interested in is not in

24:31

the movie, which is one of one of the bigger

24:33

things that I missed from the movie that's in the book.

24:36

But um, but I

24:38

I kind of bristle against this idea,

24:40

and this has come up multiple times, and I feel

24:42

like I haven't had like a forum to talk about it

24:45

um or like haven't had the time or

24:47

I don't I don't know, but like I kind of bristle against

24:50

this idea of like this should be a movie about

24:52

strong female scientists. I

24:55

don't think that that's what this movie is

24:57

about. But

25:00

it's it's fun to watch. It's fun to think

25:02

about the portrayal of five female

25:04

sciences. It's as so funny. It is

25:06

like when I was watching it, I

25:08

never thought about the fact that they were all women,

25:11

just like regular people, and

25:13

they're just like, we're going to try something different. The last

25:15

few exhibitions have been men, and we haven't done with all women

25:17

yet, so we're just gonna see it goes and it's like cool. Then

25:19

there was a point where they all came out in the suits and I

25:21

was like, oh no, their Ghostbusters. Um,

25:24

you know, because it's not their

25:26

fault or it's not this movie's

25:28

fault. It just stresses me out because I'm

25:30

like, if this movie fails exactly

25:32

like A Wrinkle in Time, you know, fails,

25:35

like are we ever going to get any more female

25:37

sci fi ever again? Or people going to be

25:39

like female sci fi doesn't self, let's never

25:41

sell it. I mean like last, you know,

25:43

like Annihili or Animil Arrival.

25:46

It was my favorite movie of that year. Um

25:49

that was like a very successful movie.

25:51

I got nominated for words and stuff and is very

25:53

much told. That's like a developed

25:56

I feel like scientist character

25:58

dealing with something uncanny, an

26:00

alien. If you want something that has like that's

26:02

a little more of a character study as opposed to this, which

26:05

I feel is much more like It's like it is like

26:07

those Tarkovsky movies where you don't I don't

26:09

think you have a gripe about those movies that you wish to like

26:11

the main dude character that you knew more

26:13

about him as like a professional

26:15

you know more about I

26:19

mean no, but I mean like in the

26:21

mold of a movie like Aliens or Predator,

26:23

which was the things I mainly was thinking about,

26:25

It's like, how much do you need

26:27

to develop those characters that you know we're all going to get

26:30

killed off? Well, I mean I think that I'm

26:32

guessing Emily that you would agree that the Crosby

26:35

stills and Nash flashbacks too,

26:37

that made Test so much helplessly

26:40

hoping was really rough. I mean that was but

26:42

you know I was right? No,

26:45

tell me, Oh, come on,

26:48

therefore people or

26:50

the other two people they are three together,

26:53

they have it's about cell division. Okay,

26:57

it's great, but I

26:59

can't watch a woman crying on a sofa

27:01

walk. It's against my religion. I

27:05

won't do it again. I was brought up c

27:07

S and wait, how can I even

27:09

pronounce this? Like yes? And sometimes

27:12

why yeah? I want to

27:14

say, you know, the best part of this movie

27:16

reminded me of of Angel's Egg a little bit,

27:18

And sometimes I was like, I kind of wish this or just

27:20

an anime, and I wouldn't QUI honestly.

27:24

I mean, I think some of the design of it is

27:26

cool that I did was cool. Doesn't

27:28

love the aesthetic? No me, I feel the same

27:30

way. And there was a moment where I had like a

27:32

false revelation that turned

27:35

out to not be true, where when

27:37

they find when you know, the whole end

27:39

is very cool. It turns into like a Jodorowski

27:41

movie in a way that is like made it worth seeing

27:43

for me definitely. Um, And when

27:46

she's in the like there's like the bone fungus

27:48

we say that where we

27:50

haven't really even that much, but

27:53

you should probably she goes

27:56

in a hole in a like a lighthouse

27:59

with bone a bone fungus,

28:01

a skeleton fungus that's growing everywhere. That's

28:04

very scary. And then she gets in there and it's like an

28:06

hr Geiger a drain pipe.

28:09

And then she finds Jennifer

28:11

Jason Lee or like an alien Jennifer Jason

28:13

Lee. She's like Jennifer Jason Lee is

28:15

letting the alien presents basically

28:18

take over her body, or like you, Jennifer

28:20

Jason Lee goes, oh, no, Mortal

28:26

Kombat. I mean, it's sort of funny because

28:29

annihilation is also like a

28:31

significant word uttered by that character

28:33

in the book. But no, I read it makes a lot

28:35

more sense in the book. But it's one of those things

28:37

like in The Shining where it's like a vestige of the book

28:39

that like is creepier because

28:42

you don't have the context for it, like in The Shining

28:44

with the bear the bear costume guy oh,

28:46

and speaking of bears, that was I think the best

28:48

part of I

28:52

feel like it's I feel like it's a good litmus

28:54

test, like to know what's

28:56

scarier to you, the the

28:58

green suit at the end or the bear.

29:00

Because I think that everybody I have talked to who's

29:03

seen this movie, it's one thing or the other, like one

29:05

thing upsets them more. Um.

29:07

Okay, well okay, so so Jennifer days and he

29:09

goes into allusion and then she turns into

29:12

like prismatic rainbow matter.

29:15

And then what I thought that meant

29:17

was I thought, oh, you become

29:20

the shimmer like the shimmers

29:22

people. Um. And then it was like,

29:25

no, it's an alien. Well I mean, but I

29:27

think that's how the alien manifests itself,

29:29

right, I guess.

29:31

But then it's like and then someone comes out

29:33

in a fetish suit and does like a tangle

29:36

the dance the modern dance. Good,

29:40

but it was bad, you know. I mean, that's kind

29:42

of it was. It was good, but it was bad. We watched

29:44

it with our friend Brendan whale and who used to do

29:46

the social media for a fetish

29:48

were site, and he was like, it's just

29:50

a z any suit. Well,

29:54

you guys, I'm willing to I'm willing

29:56

to fill in a more and more of that scene for you if you're

29:58

open minded about it. Don't I I'm

30:00

supposed that you've written anything that I've written about

30:02

it on the internet, so I'll be happy to repeat

30:05

myself here. We both

30:07

of us and we both

30:11

test tests like, this isn't a drug

30:14

movie. I did not think it was a drug Well

30:17

it was eleven twenty in the morning, but you

30:19

know, I went in with an open mind and

30:21

I still didn't feel like it was a drugma, I don't think it's

30:23

a drug movie. I'm I'm in a drug movie. Well

30:25

that was in my first piece that I read about it. But

30:27

like, I don't think it's a drug movie in that

30:30

it is about drugs, but I think it's like maybe

30:32

destined to be the kind of thing that you show somebody

30:34

at a dorm room at four in the morning, like that kind

30:37

of movie. Yeah, but you know what,

30:39

Like then I went home and watched Stalkard. I was

30:41

like, you know, Stalker is like a more

30:43

psychedelic movie. Even though there

30:46

is no rainbow fungus in it. It's like

30:48

the it's paste better, it

30:50

is scarier. Just like this

30:53

was fine, it was okay, but you

30:55

know when I realized it was Alex Garland. I

30:57

also really liked ex Machina, which tests

30:59

I think to not like again, which

31:04

is the same actor Oscar

31:06

is like and interpretive dance to

31:08

checks on your list. But you know, I did I did really

31:10

like X Macina. Um. I

31:13

don't know why I was underwhelmed. Maybe because you

31:15

built it up and I thought it was gonna be great. Well, I didn't

31:18

build it up because I would say

31:20

that I gave. I would give this if I had to do

31:22

a star rating, which I never do for movies, but

31:24

like it would be like a three and a half out of

31:26

five for me or something. I don't think that it's perfect

31:28

at all. I think most of the body of the

31:30

movie is kind of poorly written. Um,

31:33

not because of character development, but just because

31:35

it's just sort of like laying out all

31:37

these sort of structure and steaks things that feel

31:40

much more like like skeletal

31:42

Hollywood structure than then

31:44

the then I think the movie really is trying

31:46

to do and I feel like that kind of undersells

31:49

how kind of cosmic it goes at the end? Can

31:51

I Can I recommend something

31:53

that I read about Annihilation that I thought was

31:55

a really good take on it. Um.

31:58

It appeared in Collider and it's I'm Matt

32:00

Goldberg and he basically

32:02

is like, this is a movie about cancer, and

32:05

it obviously cancers a through

32:07

line, but the way that a cancer spreads

32:09

and changes, and it doesn't have like an agenda

32:12

other than the you know, innate biological

32:14

agenda to self destruct, which is also referenced

32:17

a lot um. But how how it

32:19

like mutates and changes. And then he also kind

32:21

of went into like, oh, they're all women.

32:23

The most common form of cancer is breast cancer,

32:26

like it was an interesting thought to play

32:28

with. More it starts with them looking at cervical cancer

32:31

cells at the beginning, and like, I think that's

32:34

very intentional. I mean, I think, you

32:36

know, I think that this movie is also like resonating

32:38

more for people who have like have

32:42

you know that with depression or any other kind of

32:44

self destructive tendencies, because I think

32:46

that there are people who

32:49

watch that ending scene and are like it's

32:52

like, yeah, it's like out there, it's crazy.

32:54

And then there are people are like, oh my god, Like I

32:57

I mean, I have like an extremely emotional

32:59

reaction to the end. H. I appreciated

33:01

that it was trying something crazy,

33:05

But I do think that Alex Garland has sort

33:07

of like an endings problem, um

33:09

other than ex Pacino, which I really liked the ending

33:11

of UM, but you

33:14

know, I remembered he Sunshine also,

33:16

which the movie that I really really liked up until a certain

33:18

point, and I was always like, it's like two thousand

33:20

one, it's like the acid cosmic horror movie,

33:22

and then this is like the ecstasy movie,

33:25

right. Um. In Sunshine also it ends with

33:27

like and then there's a guy, a scary

33:29

guy. And I

33:31

think for me, just having it be like

33:33

like a scary like a like a boss,

33:36

you know, a level boss, instead of

33:38

just being sort of like, oh, it's a mind fungus

33:41

and it's not like a human being. The fact that

33:43

it was like if it had been like tests what we were saying

33:45

too, if the body had been made of slime, we

33:47

would have been much more into it. I

33:49

mean, I guess we thought we were looking for slime because maybe

33:52

Emily is like, maybe it's because just

33:54

like why did Emily want us to see that so badly?

33:56

I don't understand. Um,

33:58

But yeah, the part we're like the guy, the

34:01

guy the suit thing is

34:03

kind of like grinding on her and trying to become her.

34:05

Like I thought it was gonna be like, oh percent,

34:07

I think I just said, it turns it turns

34:10

into slime and like takes her, you

34:12

know. But again, maybe that's just because I was I was

34:14

thinking for blob horror, see I find

34:16

it well. I mean, you know you you see that part with

34:18

the like deers who are marrying

34:20

each other. Basically, I think that there's something terribly

34:23

unsettling, much more than a bunch of slime would

34:25

be about these sort of auto

34:28

pile itsels that are just mimicking

34:30

the body that are you

34:32

Like, the idea of being in something that feels

34:35

like a fight but is not a fight because

34:37

it's just you is like, I

34:39

feel like a kind of constricting fear

34:41

around my chest because that

34:43

sounds like a nightmare. Like that sounds horrible.

34:46

Well, I initially when watching and I was like,

34:48

oh, it's about PTSD because they both

34:51

served in them. You know, scary had

34:53

no face. That was the scariest part that very

34:55

scary images in this movie, including the

34:57

moving guts. There were like a lot of things that really

35:00

liked and I appreciated how ambitious it was. Um,

35:03

I think I also just felt like, oh, I don't want

35:05

to have to put the pressure

35:07

on this movie of like will we

35:09

ever get another like team of female scientists.

35:11

That's what I meant when I said that it was you

35:14

you want so badly for it to be perfect,

35:16

and I think what you expect from it depends a lot

35:18

on what the changes that you want to see

35:21

in the roles that women get to play. We were talking

35:23

about another movie earlier. I don't want to outtest

35:25

what I'm going to as she said she

35:27

wasn't a fan of Ladybird so much as everyone

35:30

else was. But she said also she was like, but guys get

35:32

to make like narcissistic movies about

35:34

their lives all the time, that like, maybe aren't

35:36

the greatest movie in the world, So like, I

35:38

don't want to condemn it, because

35:41

you know, I liked Ladybird, but it didn't

35:43

blow me away as much as I

35:45

wanted it to, and then I had to and then you felt guilty

35:47

for loving it, Like

35:49

I wanted to be like my favorite

35:52

and I thought the performances were incredible and

35:54

I was happy that it was there. But I think maybe

35:56

it's expectations that that I

35:58

have that are so unreal stick to

36:00

be met of, like I want Lady Bird

36:03

to be the best,

36:05

whereas we bring nothing to go see Paddington

36:07

two, and then I love Paddington because I have

36:09

nothing riding on Paddington too. You know,

36:12

I feel like having that attitude,

36:15

especially about anything like created by or

36:17

featuring women, is

36:19

like, I don't know a recipe

36:22

for it is self

36:24

destructive and and and it's unfair

36:26

also like yeah, because exactly

36:29

you don't. You don't come in with that expectation

36:31

about no, it's totally unfair. And

36:33

I also like, I feel like I put this pressure on Natalie

36:36

Portman all the time too, you know where I'm like, Oh,

36:38

that's where I differ because I'm like, I feel

36:41

like, you know, I guess I understand in a cynical

36:43

way why they wanted Natalie Portman to be

36:46

this character. It's not like she's not the character. But

36:48

I don't think that like trying to sell the movie

36:50

on her name alone is any

36:52

kind of strategy, because I feel like people are

36:54

much more excited right now in general to

36:57

see Taza Thompson and Gina Rodriguez

36:59

in a movie that too. I mean, they were like,

37:01

you know, I think it's also just because she's playing

37:03

this main character who's a little more of a merry Sue

37:05

and a little more sort of like a cipher. And then

37:08

there was like the part that Tests and I both were like

37:10

this is the best part was when Gina

37:12

Rodriguez this is like, oh we got Hella footage,

37:16

because I was like, she probably i'd lived that, because

37:18

I don't know that Alex Garland has ever heard Hella.

37:21

But it just felt like, you know, it's like, oh, a real person,

37:23

like a character who feels

37:25

like they have a life that exists

37:27

before they were in this. And I think

37:29

one of the things that I really wanted to was I wanted

37:32

it to be a much stranger movie

37:34

than I felt like it was. I wanted it like

37:36

I was just thinking when we were talking about, you

37:38

know, these expectations that ending was too normal

37:41

for you. It wasn't that it was

37:43

it was that there was so much formulaic

37:46

plot in that movie. And yeah,

37:48

I didn't need any of the backstory or the setup,

37:52

like I could have just been they could have just

37:54

started an area X and just

37:56

and I found the I found the characters.

37:59

I mean, it was not just the characters

38:01

themselves, but how how the like

38:04

exal the like

38:06

they were cuts. To feel I

38:08

couldn't that stuffer, but to

38:11

feel that's the thing where I'm like, don't don't

38:13

condescend to self destructive. And

38:15

I felt That's why. That's why

38:18

I'm like, I don't I would rather do away

38:20

that with that entirely. I would rather have those

38:22

performances from the supporting characters

38:24

be purely performance and

38:27

not written as like, you

38:29

know, she does X Y Z therefore this, because

38:31

that feels so on the nose and like

38:34

like so literal in the way that I don't think this film

38:36

is operating in a really literal way. I mean, how

38:38

are you supposed to really like explain

38:41

the ending and a to B manner. It's

38:43

just it's kind of all at that point,

38:45

I wish this movie had like less

38:47

dial just spend a lot more like plants

38:50

growing into animals totally coming each other.

38:52

Because obviously I like that. Yeah, that

38:54

was that was great. I don't know why, but tests is

38:56

looking up welcome to me. No,

39:00

I'm not distracted, and I've no but

39:02

I it's just because when we were talking about

39:04

the best movie about a self destructive woman, yes,

39:06

And I think it's it's interesting because I

39:08

think every time there's a movie that

39:10

is being framed as being like very

39:13

strange or kind of mind bendy or something,

39:15

I'm like, well, I don't know if I should recommend

39:18

Welcome to Me, judging it against a Welcome

39:20

to Me. Welcome to Me. It was not well received.

39:23

I mean it was not well received, but it was well received

39:26

by me. But it's

39:28

like from when you talk about like a self destructive

39:30

person or a personality where you have that

39:33

you know, you kind of identify or you see

39:35

parts of yourself in a very extreme

39:38

characterization of a person,

39:40

like Welcome to Me was. It didn't

39:42

rely on anything familiar,

39:45

but it painted a very specific and

39:48

you know, it was a very full

39:50

portrait of a self destructive person. Maybe

39:52

not completely successful, but

39:55

I mean I wanted something where the

39:57

characters like you, you know, I really

39:59

have a hard I'm with the she wears long sleeves and she

40:01

cuts herself to Felix. I'm like, that's just kind

40:03

of it is. It's condescending, and it's

40:06

almost like exactly, this has a

40:08

lot of tropes that like she cannot deal with,

40:11

which I respect, and one of them is people

40:13

using a stage brush, like people sweeping.

40:17

It's sweeping the floor. That was my main issue

40:19

with Horse and Pete, which they don't ever

40:22

really do a lot of on Cheers. Surprisingly now

40:24

they don't know it's wiping the bar. And I don't have no

40:26

problem with wiping the bar. The

40:29

bar go'll be white. But the floors,

40:31

when when you see someone sweeping a floor

40:34

and you look at the floor and you realize that there's

40:36

nothing there and there's no pile and there's nothing to sweep,

40:38

that's it takes me out of it more.

40:42

But pro cosmic cor yeah,

40:44

yeah, I mean, I I agree that it should have just

40:47

been weirder if that's the main like

40:50

complaint, because I think that, I mean, for

40:52

the same reason I'm saying that I kind of resist

40:55

this wanting to read it as like this

40:57

victory because it's about five strong women.

40:59

I like, well, women should also have

41:02

stories about like like cosmic

41:04

dissolution too, because like that

41:07

that is like and usually that is just

41:09

uh like men get to experience that

41:11

in movies, and I feel like people

41:14

are afraid to put women through that kind

41:16

of thing fully in a movie because

41:18

it feels like, oh, they're weak, and we

41:20

need to always show strong women, uh

41:22

in movies. And I feel like in something like this, it's

41:24

so much more and I enjoyed

41:27

it more certainly than I enjoyed seeing

41:29

Jennifer Lawrence get the ship beat out of her and

41:31

mother, Oh my god, Like there

41:34

there are things about that movie that

41:36

I liked, but I also, you know, could have done

41:38

with more zeny suit dancing.

41:41

Until you see Jennifer Lawrence get the sheet, the

41:43

ship beat off, the sheet, ship

41:45

beat out of her in Red Sparrow. Do

41:47

you think she has Brendan Fraser? Uh, I

41:50

guess where she wants to get beaten up

41:52

in movies as like a self destructive tendency.

41:54

It's very possible. It's very possible.

41:56

Well, I mean we all actresses. It's

41:59

like, yeah, you're a little bit of athochist,

42:01

all actors. Let's be honest,

42:04

guys. Let's take another night call. Let's do a night call.

42:06

So we have another night call, night

42:09

email. I guess if you will that

42:11

also happens to double as a Fraser

42:14

minute tests you want to read it for us?

42:16

Sure? So this comes from Kate and

42:19

she writes, dear night call, I actually

42:21

already left you two voice messages about

42:23

two different things, but this also just occurred

42:25

to me. I was too embarrassed to call back a third

42:27

time. I'm so grateful that you all

42:30

provide regular Fraser banter. So my

42:32

question is, have you ever tried to

42:34

cast the role of Maris. The first

42:36

person that comes to mind for me is Parker

42:38

Posey, But that's never felt quite right.

42:41

Despite the entire point of Maris being

42:43

that she has vividly described but never seen,

42:45

I can't quite seem to picture her. Is it

42:47

possible? Is it like trying to imagine

42:49

the face of God? Thoughts? Great

42:53

question? Yeah, that was a good one.

42:56

That's such a tough question because it is like

42:58

trying to imagine the face of God. Right,

43:00

I almost don't want to. Like I understand

43:03

why Parker Posey, especially because of her in

43:05

Best in Show. Um,

43:08

but I feel like Marris is almost like transparent,

43:11

like I always imagined her as being like a frail

43:13

ghost. I have maybe an answer.

43:15

Okay, So, as everyone knows, I've

43:17

been watching all the Cheers in the world, UM,

43:20

and I realized from watching Fraser

43:22

prequel Cheers that the device,

43:24

the Marrist device of the off screen character

43:26

is actually from Cheers. Um, in

43:29

reference to Norm's wife. Um,

43:33

but it's talked about a lot UM. I also

43:35

have realized that everything I've ever liked about

43:37

any sitcom is from Cheers. Everything

43:41

I liked about Friends was actually

43:43

stolen from Cheers. Why did it take you so

43:45

long to watch Cheers? It's so, yeah,

43:47

I don't can't. I was always

43:50

like, why would I want to? I don't like hanging out in bars

43:52

in real life. Didn't your parents watch

43:54

Cheers? No? I didn't watch sitcoms

43:56

until the nineties. There's like a like a blank

43:58

period where I didn't know anything about culture

44:01

and the artist. I

44:03

watched Sesame Street and Red Nerd Books,

44:06

and then I insisted on watching full house.

44:08

Cheers was the first show that

44:10

I remember watching alongside my

44:12

mom and not understanding, but like laughing

44:14

along with the laugh track to prove that I got

44:16

it. So, I mean, I don't. I didn't

44:19

remember much about that initial viewing, but I

44:21

remember like all the characters and the

44:23

vibe and everything. Yeah. Yeah, my

44:25

parents watched Twin Peaks. But

44:28

wait, so who would you cast as marriage?

44:31

Oh? So I was watching Cheers and there's

44:33

an episode where I'm in the Rebecca years

44:35

now, which are you know, it's a different show, but

44:37

it's fine. Um, Rebecca's

44:39

sister came on and she was played by Marcia Cross.

44:42

I know I remember this, yeah, as

44:45

her like slotty sister who always steals her

44:47

man um, and Sam tries to

44:49

set them up into you know, he tries to play them

44:51

off each other. Um, And I thought Marcia Cross

44:53

would be a great merest Actually she's

44:55

got that. She's see through. She's

44:58

very, very skinny and sort of attrician

45:00

looking and scary. But

45:02

I do also think you can't really. I think

45:05

Maris is the person

45:08

thing from the end of Annihilation because

45:11

I feel like it would be interesting to cast against

45:13

type. I think for Mariss,

45:15

I think my marists pick. The person who's

45:17

base usually comes into my mind is

45:21

Jane Adams. Weirdly, that

45:23

makes sense too, because she appears on Fraser later

45:26

and she's just got these big Yeah she is on

45:28

Fraser. That's right, Um, she's

45:32

am I allowed to say to ethnic she's

45:34

like too She's

45:37

not like waspy enough is

45:39

my feeling, because I feel like

45:42

she looks too like um, like

45:44

a real person. Yeah. I mean,

45:46

I was gonna say Mercedes McCambridge, but

45:48

that's like a big time hop. Who's that

45:51

Mercedes or

45:55

culture the world's greatest living actress. I'm

45:58

relying heavily on my phone this podcast.

46:00

But so, she was the voice of the demon

46:03

in The Exorcist. Okay,

46:05

alright, but also also I

46:07

wasn't she wasn't she Annie

46:10

Hall's grandmother Gray

46:12

Hawk? And I'm making that up. I'm gonna look. I

46:14

like the idea that Niles is that Mary's is

46:16

actually like very old. Well,

46:19

I'm saying I would time hop I don't would

46:23

believe that that Maris would

46:25

not necessarily be like either because

46:28

she's like she's like, she's

46:30

like our wool war theorists, like

46:33

she might not be the most eligible,

46:37

couldn't you see? And Niles is totally

46:39

her her beard that she married, Yes, yeah,

46:41

but also couldn't you see Niles in like a Harold

46:43

and mod situation? Yes? And then it's

46:45

just like and they're still together.

46:49

Um, well, that was a great question. Um

46:52

let's take it to speaking

46:54

of self destructive stadistic

46:58

tortures. UM.

47:00

I made Tess and Emily

47:02

watch Darren Brown The

47:04

Push, which is a Netflix special from

47:07

the magician Darren Brown, who is a

47:09

mentalist and uh

47:11

a famous person in England but not here.

47:14

And I feel like this was his first attempt to cross over

47:16

into America. And what

47:18

an attempt? Can I say that the title Darren

47:20

Brown The Push sounds like a sex toy,

47:23

I mean, Darren

47:25

Brown. The Push is a reality

47:28

TV special that is best described

47:30

as like a serious Nathan for You death,

47:32

where you try to socially

47:35

conditioned someone to agree

47:37

to push someone off a roof at the end

47:40

of like a long night in which you've gotten them

47:42

to agree to do all these different other

47:44

demeaning things leading up

47:46

to getting them

47:48

to murder somebody. What

47:50

do you think? Nobody was actually murdered, but

47:53

that doesn't mean that it didn't feel

47:55

like somebody was. Yes, I

47:57

guess I'm

48:00

so mad at you for making me watch I

48:04

was. I mean, because I'm the Jennifer

48:06

Jason Lee. Yeah, welcome and

48:08

I um,

48:11

yeah, I was. I

48:14

did not watch this all the way through. I will admit,

48:16

first of all, I watched a large

48:18

a lot of it. I watched over how they missed

48:21

the ending. I have to cop

48:23

to the exact names I could not. Did you

48:25

look up to see what happened? Yeah? I looked.

48:27

I looked up to see what happened. And

48:30

okay, guys, he didn't do it. Yeah, he

48:32

tried to get somebody else to do it. No,

48:34

he just didn't do it. He just said, like, no, this is wrong,

48:36

I won't do it, and then they cut to the

48:38

three other people they did it on and they all do it.

48:44

In my head, no, it's amazing. It's

48:47

like reverse editor because you're like, this guy is totally

48:49

going to do it, and they lead all the way up to it, and then

48:51

at the end they're like, you have to do it. You have to push him off the roof,

48:53

and he's like, no, I'm not going to. This

48:56

is fucked up. I don't believe in, Like,

48:58

I don't want to do it, I don't care. Are like it's

49:00

not worth it to me. I'm leaving, and you're

49:03

like ah, and then they're like, oh, but also,

49:05

we ran this experiment three other times and then they

49:07

just show you one after the other, the

49:09

people being like oh no,

49:12

oh god, they just push

49:14

him, they like cover their mouths.

49:17

So I feel like we can get to a deeper car. I

49:19

want to maybe not discuss this right away

49:22

about the veracity of all of this, but

49:24

I feel like those three other contestants

49:26

could have easily been not real, Like

49:28

maybe Chris, you know, I

49:30

know That's what I'm saying. Like, I mean, before we

49:32

get into that whole aspect of it about

49:34

if it's it's like the TV show Cheaters.

49:37

That's right, yeah, exactly thought experiment

49:39

and the way it makes you feel, like the fact that

49:41

you guys both reacted like so

49:43

violently it works. We got pushed,

49:46

you got pushed. I

49:49

found that they do have They

49:51

have kind of a button at the beginning that is a different

49:53

social It's like a microcosm of the whole thing

49:56

of a man receiving a call

49:58

at a cafe and the man and is

50:00

not an actor, but everyone around him

50:02

is an actor, and um Darren Brown

50:05

and his friend or coworker, I don't

50:07

think they're friends. Who knows the other guy

50:09

he's with. They call this this person

50:12

in the cafe, and they instruct him to steal

50:14

a baby carriage because they say, you know that

50:16

baby has been kidnapped and where the police

50:18

you need to get out of bring the baby out of the cafe.

50:21

So the guy does exactly what they say,

50:23

and he brings the stroll or outside

50:25

the cafe, going like this is crazy. I don't

50:27

feel right about this, but he's doing it anyway.

50:30

And I was so immediately

50:33

disturbed because there's a Truman Show

50:35

aspect to it of you eliminate you

50:37

know anyone, nobody around this

50:39

man is acting in good faith, and so

50:42

that that's fascinating. It's fascinating

50:44

because because in the social Okay,

50:46

So, first of all, these are all people who signed up for a

50:48

reality show, went through a barrage

50:51

of like psychological tests to prove they could be

50:53

on a reality show, and then we're told they didn't

50:55

get the job, and then the reality show starts.

50:57

So it's like David Fincher's a game. It's

51:00

like it's even

51:02

though they auditioned for a reality show,

51:04

if any of them at any point, and even though everyone

51:06

around them is acting like an actor, like

51:08

acting very actory, which is also hard

51:11

like impossible to tell from British. Yeah, no,

51:13

I thought everybody was such a bad actor. I couldn't believe

51:15

it. But like if anybody were like am

51:18

I in a reality show? Like is

51:20

this all a setup, like constructed to

51:22

get me to push someone off a route to their death?

51:24

Like, then you'd sound crazy. The

51:27

kind of the prem recreated corpse is

51:29

the best actor of anybody, and that thing

51:31

was like that name is the biggest achievement

51:33

of the show, is that corpse? Which

51:36

oh, also Tessa and I saw a preview

51:38

before Annihilation for the Steven Soderberg

51:41

movie Unsane. That

51:43

is for sure a night call. Yeah, so

51:46

I think I'm going to see it in a couple of

51:48

weeks, so we should definitely talk about it. So

51:50

yeah, Darren Brown, Um, Darren Brown is like

51:52

he's a mentalist and all of his magic

51:55

is sort of about social conditioning and linguistic

51:57

programming and how you can convince people

51:59

to do things if you talk to them in a certain way

52:01

and if you like repeat words over and over again.

52:04

You can't see it right now, I'm doing like a big jack off

52:06

motion. I

52:09

can hear it. He's

52:14

super famous in England and he's also

52:16

like a genius close up magic

52:18

and like regular magic. Um.

52:20

But I mean, you know, the end of the show

52:23

is he's like, don't be fascist,

52:25

Like don't do stuff just because people tell

52:27

you too, because like even though you think

52:30

you're helping, you might not be. And like listen

52:32

to the voice in your head of like why you're doing

52:34

things instead of just doing things because you think you

52:36

should. But he underwent

52:39

I mean he the manipulations

52:41

and the links that he went to. It's hard

52:43

because if it weren't a reality

52:46

show, and it were an experiment, it would

52:48

be very very difficult what way does

52:51

like, at what point does this diverge from anything

52:53

that resembles anything a normal humans going to go

52:55

through in life.

53:00

For one, at this point you would know that maybe

53:02

you were going to get like mega prank. I don't

53:04

think that means a shadow

53:06

LLC or something. No, he well

53:09

he did one. There's one about the apocalypse

53:11

that's really amazing. Yeah, that sounds good. Um, that

53:13

one's really packed up because it's a kid whose

53:15

family are like he's a lay about and

53:17

like we're all tired of his ship. So

53:19

they all conspire to like help do

53:22

the con on him, which is the scariest thing of all.

53:25

His married's baby. Everyone you know is in on it

53:27

and they're your family. But they're

53:29

like, he only does is like fucking funk around

53:31

on his computer. So they start it's very black

53:33

Marry. They start like seating his computer

53:35

with fake news stories, um,

53:38

and like his phone and it's like the

53:40

computers in their house. I'll have these fake news

53:42

stories that like lead up to a sort of twenty eight

53:44

days later situation. But like nobody you

53:46

know, I hate everyone, and hey,

53:49

I mean you know question is

53:51

what does this do to the person the

53:53

subject of this show. I mean, if you if

53:56

you actually had to put

53:58

yourself through you know, me to a

54:00

place where you thought you were pushing a human off

54:02

a building. I mean, look, they all volunteered,

54:06

and they're all and then Darren Brown comes out

54:08

at the Brown comes out at the end, and they're

54:11

all like so happy to see him, and

54:13

they're just like, I love you. That's

54:15

a social experiment that you're the person

54:18

who is, you know, pretending that you're

54:20

illuminating these truths about humanity, but maybe

54:22

you're just kind of stoking your own ego.

54:25

Well, he's like a weird con man in

54:27

you know. I mean, I I don't

54:29

know if he's a genius

54:31

in like the Ricky j way. You

54:34

know, he's definitely like a manipulator.

54:36

I think the thing that I um that

54:38

I find to be the most disingenuous about

54:41

it is this like kind of

54:43

underlining message that he's saying that

54:45

that is going on about, like don't be a conformist,

54:48

Like don't let yourself get wrapped up in

54:50

in a fascist just don't get in it. Don't

54:52

get in a crazy Truman show or anyone but

54:55

it's it's I feel like there are so many

54:58

of these like dog whistles in it are

55:00

actually way more appealing to like men's

55:02

rights activists and stuff, because it's all about

55:04

here's a compliance mode. It all feels very

55:06

pick up artist e and like I totally

55:09

how to manipulate people to like get maybe

55:11

the alpha and ship, and I like, I find sure

55:14

a lot of a lot of that Frank T. J.

55:16

Mackie stuff, the real Frank T. J. Mackie

55:18

whose name I forget, but who once

55:20

got mad at me for doing a blog post about how

55:22

this thing is literally to be like linguistic

55:26

program people by getting them like you

55:28

just say like blow me. You

55:30

say like could you reach that that soda

55:32

below me? And you just say like over and over

55:34

again. It's like your programming them want to

55:36

blow you

55:41

reach soda below me? It's

55:45

a dog like Okay,

55:50

this is a women's rights activist poems

55:53

w R all the way up. I

55:55

have to say, like it was a different time,

55:57

but I used to watch pickup Artist

56:00

thought it was an interesting experiment.

56:02

Just I mean, it was obviously horrible,

56:05

horrible, and it made me feel rotten

56:07

inside. But I was like didn't you like mind

56:09

Hunter? Yeah, I've been liking

56:11

mine. Huft. Okay, so you like thinking about like

56:13

the rotten parts of the human brain. That thing's

56:18

just if it's real or fictional. And this

56:20

is the thing, is it felt you know my mixed

56:22

feelings about The Bachelor for instance,

56:24

of how you kind of, you know, take these

56:26

people, you put them on a show. You

56:29

you create very strange circumstances

56:32

that they are forced to adapt to. They

56:34

have real emotional responses to things that are

56:36

constructed. There's like an ambivalence

56:38

there. But then when you take someone, it's essentially

56:41

emotional torture to prove a point.

56:43

And I don't think that the point was necessarily proven.

56:46

And I also think that, you know, it made

56:49

me very nostalgic for I shouldn't

56:51

be nostalgia for it because it's ongoing. But Nathan, for

56:53

you, where I would expect to feel that

56:55

same kind of like, oh,

56:58

I feel morally uncomfortable with but

57:00

I don't because the motive

57:02

is not to exploit or

57:05

somewhere or embarrass somebody.

57:07

I know a lot of people who can't deal with that kind

57:09

of comedy in general because they're like too

57:12

afraid they'd be the mark, you know. But it's

57:14

not only that. It's so it's so hard to

57:16

watch someone who is trying to do the

57:18

right thing, but the whole frame is

57:20

that it will be the wrong. The point

57:22

is that it's hard to do the right thing and people don't

57:24

care if you do. So, like in that

57:26

situation, it's like everyone's telling you to push

57:29

someone off a roof. Do you not do it?

57:31

Because you're like, no, I still know that's

57:33

wrong. I guess I just can't get

57:35

past the actual stress

57:37

of that he's going through. Like I just I

57:40

think that that's a traumatic experience that they

57:42

put him through. I don't feel like it's for any

57:44

like particular particularly enlightening

57:47

outcome, because I think it's applicable

57:50

to groups. It's just about group psychology

57:52

and and but I think it's like nothing.

57:54

I feel like that hasn't been like it. It's like

57:56

a big Milgram experiment basically, it

57:59

is exactly what's interesting about I'm like, you can do

58:01

a millgroom experiment on British television. I

58:03

mean, I like, only on British television.

58:07

Don't you do anything on British television.

58:09

I thought that one thing that was very thought

58:11

provoking, and you know occurs

58:13

like pretty early in the push if

58:15

you have any interest in seeing it but are ready

58:18

to duck out. Is when they're doing

58:20

the auditions. I guess that everyone

58:22

will be told they fail, but they didn't. They have

58:24

a bunch of actors and then they invite in some

58:27

actual, just real people who don't know what's going

58:29

on, and they ring a bell. Had every time the bell

58:32

rings. Oh well, I was

58:34

like, this is interesting. Every time the bell rings,

58:36

the actors stand and the people who don't know

58:38

what's going on. It takes them a while, but eventually they just

58:40

start mimicking the behaviors of the act right.

58:42

Wasn't that like annihilation too?

58:44

It's just like human beings are just animals,

58:47

man, just adapt dogs

58:49

man. I mean, I think that there are more interesting

58:52

things that could have been done with this

58:54

idea than punishing

58:57

someone this as much as they did.

58:59

I mean, it's it really, I think you

59:01

have to be at such a distance from someone

59:03

else's humanity to think that it's

59:05

worth that cost to make the point.

59:08

Yeah, I I don't think it's a victim less

59:10

show. I guess that's how I feel. In the end. I

59:12

feel like those people could be like especially the ones.

59:14

If if those people did indeed

59:16

go through this entire thing and then opt to kill

59:18

the guy at the end and then learn that about themselves,

59:21

I feel like that is that could

59:23

really fuck somebody up for their entire life

59:26

and for sure send them down a really

59:28

bad reality. Um

59:31

uh, you guys, I'm gonna make you guys watch Haunted,

59:33

the Haunted House documentary. So I started

59:36

it and I was really liking it. I'll make you watch that for next

59:38

week because what I think, Yeah, it's

59:41

also can you repeat the name? So it's called

59:43

haunted. I think it's

59:45

called haunters. It's called haunters. I keep calling

59:47

it the wrong name. It's called haunters.

59:50

It's about people, people

59:52

who are really into Haunted House stuff and who

59:55

professionally work as haunters in haunts.

59:57

But again it's also you have

59:59

to hip. But it also you're also

1:00:01

going to be mad at me. It's be great because

1:00:06

I mean that I watched that right after I

1:00:08

just started it, right after the push, and I was like, see,

1:00:10

these people want to be some I'm saying,

1:00:12

those people want to be scared. People who signed

1:00:14

up for a Darren Brown Show. At this point, they

1:00:16

know what they might be in for, because it's like the

1:00:18

fifth one of these, and the last one was like the Apocalypse,

1:00:21

and the one before that was like getting people to rob a

1:00:23

bank, So like it escalates. I

1:00:25

wonder what the next next one will be. I honestly

1:00:27

want to see one where it's just like, will this

1:00:29

person eat three cream pies fifty

1:00:37

Yorkshire puddings? Do

1:00:39

we dare? Do you dare? Want something so

1:00:41

twisty because fifty

1:00:44

Yorkshire puddings would also be tortured so

1:00:47

much food, that's so much butter. It

1:00:49

ties back to Phantom Thread and here we are

1:00:52

all about the hungry boys. Yeah,

1:00:54

full British practice. So I guess you guys don't think Darren

1:00:56

Brown's going to cross over into America. It's what you're saying.

1:00:59

Well, he pronounced taste. He overpronounces

1:01:01

his name so hard that I feel like he's really

1:01:03

trying to get his name into our minds. So maybe

1:01:06

he won the number one magician from

1:01:08

the Magic Castle like two years running

1:01:11

to see a mockumentary with someone

1:01:13

else playing dar and Brown with

1:01:15

a linguistic programmer. So he's just saying

1:01:17

his name over and over again. Wow

1:01:21

whatever it takes that part where they keep saying

1:01:23

whatever whatever, good

1:01:27

Well, Um, this this is a lovely night

1:01:29

Call. Yeah, it's a wonderful night. Thank you everybody

1:01:31

for listening. And hey, if

1:01:33

you like Night Call for a few episodes

1:01:36

in now, I think you know who you're in for. Why

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not leave us a review on iTunes,

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give us a rating and review and

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right, um and yeah, that

1:01:50

that just helps us get the show out in

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1:01:57

and and as always, leave us a night call too.

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1:02:27

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