0:00

He's a nice side with Dan Ray I WBZ Kunstan's Radio. Welcome back everyone.

0:08

I think all of you know that I'm always interested in interesting legal cases,

0:15

particularly prosecutions, and I was recently provided with a copy of the book

0:22

Witnessed to a Prosecution by my next guest, attorney Richard Sandler. He is

0:28

a Los Angeles based attorney, a partner in the firm of Maron and Sandler

0:33

Sandler. The title of the book witness to a Prosecution the Myth of Michael

0:38

Milkin. Now Michael Milkin is someone who has been a tremendously successful individual.

0:48

As a matter of fact, the first forty years of his life he was

0:52

just incredibly successful. I went to MUC Berkeley as an NBA from the Wharton

0:58

School, was a Brillian, a genius on Wall Street, developed high yield

1:06

bond market. But then along came some problems, which included indictments by the

1:12

federal government. He eventually led guilty to the allegation, served a little less

1:21

than two years in prison, was fined six hundred million dollars, and eventually

1:25

was pardoned by President Donald Trump on February In February of twenty twenty, which

1:32

sounds like a quick little synopsis. I give that to sort of set the

1:37

stage for my guest. Michael Milken has had an incredible fall from grace.

1:45

He's also had an incredible resurrection personally, and he also probably is an innocent

1:56

man of the crimes for which he was charged and for the crimes to which

2:01

he pled guilty. So it's it is a very interesting case. The book

2:07

Witnessed to a Prosecution, had a chance to read it and well a lot

2:12

of it over the weekend. I'm now delighted to welcome to my Nightside audience

2:16

attorney Richard Sandler, who has been a friend of Michael Milkin literally all of

2:23

Michael Milkin's life, and Richard Sandler represented him during this ordeal and including just

2:35

this is an incredible story. Richard Sandler, welcome in Nightside. Thanks Dan,

2:39

it's a pleasure to be talking to you. You know you you were

2:45

friends with Michael Milkin and his brother Lowell, who plays an important part in

2:49

this story. Since I guess childhood, correct, that's correct. We go

2:54

back to elementary school, so it's been a long time. Elementary school did

3:00

you go Did you also go to the same high school that he went to

3:05

Yes, we went Low and I are actually the same age, and we

3:07

met in elementary school and we went all the way through school together through elementary

3:14

what we called junior high in those days, high school. We all went

3:16

to college together Berkeley and Law and I were also classmates at law school at

3:21

UCLA. Wow. So you are as close to this family as probably anyone

3:29

on earth. Your book was recommended to me by a mutual friend, and

3:36

I have a recollection. I was working in television in the ninth well from

3:42

the nineteen seventies to two thousand and seven, so I certainly had a view

3:46

of Michael Milkin, but it was one of those views from thirty thousand feet

3:50

and I figure, well, here's a guy who got caught doing something that

3:54

the Feds were concerned about, and they went after him, and good for

3:59

them. I knew about him coming out and actually having been diagnosed, I

4:02

believe, with prostate cancer when he was leaving prison, and he became certainly

4:10

a voice for that horrific disease, alerting people to the problem. He's also

4:15

an incredibly generous individual. Give us the snapshot of the Michael Milkin that you

4:20

knew, and then let's talk about how he found himself in this whirlpool,

4:26

this eddy that brought him down and basically put him in prison crimes to which

4:33

he was not guilty of, but which he pled guilty too. So I

4:39

give to give this anopsis of Mike. Look, we grew up together.

4:44

He was the older brother because brother law and I were the same age.

4:47

And as we all know, when you're in elementary school, somebody two years

4:51

older than you was a generation, right. But so he was the older

4:55

brother. I knew him. We were at each other's home, so we

4:58

went to camp together. That I guess that difference in generation kind of collapsed

5:05

more as we got into high school. When I got to high school at

5:10

Birmingham High School in Van Nuys, California, Mike was a senior and he

5:15

was the head cheerleader, he was prom king. He was a pretty big

5:19

man on campus, I guess as a term we used to use, and

5:24

he kind of, you know, looked after us. You know, we

5:27

always felt comfortable around him. He was a person that always seemed to excel

5:31

at whatever he did, whether it was athletics, whether it was socially,

5:33

or whether it was in school. He went on to Berkeley a few years

5:38

later, Lowell and I both went there. We were fraternity brothers at that

5:43

point. I don't think that generational thing meant anything anymore. Our wives were

5:50

sorority sisters are now wise, they weren't our lives at the time, and

5:57

you know, we've remained good friends ever since. I went East to school

6:00

at Warden and then went to work at a firm called Drexel Firestone, then

6:04

became Drexel Burnham. Was extremely successful there. Moved his department to Los Angeles

6:12

in nineteen seventy eight to be closer to his family. His father had cancer.

6:15

He had two young children at the time, and I started doing some

6:20

legal work for people in the department in the Drexel Burnham what was known as

6:25

a high Eel and Convertible securities department, and around nineteen eighty three, he

6:32

and his brother Lowell asked me if I was prepared to leave the practice a

6:35

law and just come to work with them. They're putting together a consulting group,

6:40

which I did with another individual to overlook the investments they were making,

6:44

many of which were Drexel transactions. And I thought I was leaving the practice

6:48

a lot at that time, and went to work with probably one of the

6:53

most exciting places to be in the financial markets at the time, since they

6:59

were financing companies and entrepreneurs had never been able to get financing before. Yeah,

7:04

it was the go go eighties, you know, Ronald Reagan was president,

7:10

The country had come out of the malaise that impacted Jimmy Carter, the

7:16

Communist, The USSR was on the precipice of a falling, and of course

7:21

the Berlin Wall did fall in nineteen eighty nine. But in the midst of

7:26

all of that, as the economy was increasing and things were looking wonderful for

7:34

the rest of the country, things took a doc turn. For your good

7:39

friend and you colleague, Michael Milkin. What happened, Well, I think

7:45

as we moved into the eighties, what he was doing. Let me just

7:47

give you in two minutes what he was doing. Mike had and studied in

7:53

school and had really focused on what was called high yield securities some people majorita

7:59

ofly call them junk bonds. And what he learned when he looked as how

8:03

those securities traded in the marketplace, he found that they traded at a far

8:09

greater discount than the risk that the companies that issued those bonds would not pay

8:15

the bonds and just real quickly, we'll do finance one oh one. A

8:20

bond, unlike a stock, is a contract. It's alone and the lender.

8:26

In this case, the company agrees they'll pay interest on certain dates and

8:31

principle. If it trades at a discount because its rating goes down, it's

8:37

because whoever is rating it thinks there is a chance it will not pay interest

8:43

are principle when it's due because it has some financial difficulties. And Mike and

8:48

studying these bonds, realize that more of these companies ended up paying their interest

8:54

in principle than the discounts suggested his research and study. He figured, if

9:01

I can understand these companies, if I could learn about their industries, I

9:05

could invest in a portfolio of these bonds, and I will do much better

9:11

than alternative investments. And that truth to be proved to be true. And

9:16

it's all perfectly legal. Oh, it's all perfectly legal. It's just investing.

9:20

You're just doing research. And it's no different than deciding I want to buy x y Z stock perfect tomorrow because you know, I read about the

9:26

company, or I like the product. Let me do this, Richard,

9:31

if I could. I just got to take a quick commercial break. I

9:33

want to pause you there because you know, and then I want to get

9:37

into the problem the prosecution, the what I think now virtually everyone who understands

9:45

this case sees as a prosecutorial overreach, which I think is a theme of

9:50

the book and something that I'm familiar with and you have lived, uh,

9:56

and it's something that I want people to to to absorb. We will be

10:01

back with my guest, Richard Sandler, witness to a Prosecution The Myth of

10:07

Michael Milkin coming and this is published by Forbes. Coming back on night Side

10:11

right after a couple of quick commercial messages. Night Side was Dan Ray on

10:20

Boston's news Radio. I guess Richard Sandler, an attorney out of Los Angeles

10:26

and very close friend of Michael Milkin, who still alive and uh and is

10:31

doing well both medically and financially. The book Witnessed to a Prosecution The Myth

10:39

of Michael Milkin. So, Richard, things are going fine. Milkin is

10:46

is a huge success. He's considered a genius, and all of a sudden,

10:50

his world, his world implodes. So it's difficult to to to bring

10:58

this together concisely, and I'm ask you to two a synopsis, and then

11:03

I'm hoping people might want to call and ask more questions, but go right

11:07

ahead, whatever you can do, I'd appreciate if that'd be great. So

11:09

I talked about investing in these high heeled securities. Became very lucrative for the

11:15

firm Drexel, which allotted capital for him to do this, and he dealt

11:20

with institutions and buyers and they started buying these bonds based upon his recommendations and

11:26

such, and they were doing well. So a market developed and they came

11:31

up with his idea. This was in the nineteen seventies that most of these

11:35

companies that had lower rated bonds had been highly rated. At one time.

11:39

The only companies that could access the public markets to get financing through bond issues

11:48

were highly rated companies would lose their ratings when they got in trouble. So

11:52

they had this idea, it'd ever done before. Well, if we understand

11:56

the market so well, why don't we start financing companies that traditionally couldn't get

12:01

financing on Wall Street? Which is over ninety percent of all companies in America

12:07

and if they don't get good ratings. We now have credibility and we will

12:11

help these companies grow because we are investing companies based on what we think the

12:16

future is. Rating agencies are rating companies based upon their historical history. And

12:22

he ended up financing people like Ted Turner with CNN and Turner Broadcasting, and

12:30

people like Steve Wynn who had the idea of taking Las Vegas and turning it

12:35

from an adult playground into a family destination center. And Craig McCaw who had

12:39

the idea of the cellular phone, etc. Etc. And became very successful

12:46

and everything was going great, getting a lot of publicity. Mike was publicity

12:50

shy. He believed in doing his work and not bringing attention to himself or

12:54

his family. Let me ask you one quick question here if I cop seems

12:58

to me you're describing the precursor to what we call today venture capital. I

13:05

think in many ways that's what it is. In fact, a lot of

13:07

the companies that they financed were companies bought by what is now known as private

13:13

equity. Exactly the Colbert Cravince's of the world, the Leonard Greens of the

13:20

world. All these companies, they were customers a Drexel because they would get

13:22

financing for Drexel to invest in the companies they invested in. So during this

13:28

period of time, he was getting a lot of attention and he was he

13:31

was a disruptor. He was disrupting traditional financing on Wall Street. The large

13:37

firms were now finding that this guy was getting all this attention, he was

13:41

making money, he was in a business they weren't in, and they would

13:46

downplay the importance of the business there. You know, it's junk, it's

13:50

lower rated. We don't do that. But he was doing more and more

13:54

work and then a lot of the people he was financing would have interest in

13:58

acquiring companies that the traditional firms financed. The traditional firms didn't like that,

14:05

and their customers didn't like that. So he wasn't really popular of what he

14:11

was doing as a disruptor. And he was doing business with a arbitrajure guy

14:16

named Ivan Boski, who was the most revered and respected risk arbitrajure on Wall

14:22

Street at the time. Meaning he would invest in companies that he thought there

14:26

was a displacement between the priced it was at and what we perceived to be

14:33

the value. Sometimes he thought they would be acquired by somebody and they would

14:37

go up in value. And every firm on Wall Street was doing business with

14:41

mister Boski. Drexel did business with him, and it turned out mister Boski

14:48

had his own legal problems. Ended up pleading guilty to being involved in insider

14:52

trading, trading on non public inside information, which is illegal, made a

14:58

lot of money doing it, paid back a lot of money, and pled

15:03

guilty to a crime, ended up going to prison, And as part of

15:07

the deal he made with the government, he agreed to quote cooperate quote quote

15:11

quote to help them make cases against other people, and said one of the

15:16

people he did business with and he would help them make case against was Michael

15:20

Milken. So all of a sudden in November of nineteen eighty six, our

15:26

lives became totally upside down in a way that none of us ever could have

15:31

dreamed or imagined our lifetime. So you're you're watching your friend being investigated and

15:37

ultimately being indicted, and ultimately being told we can make a deal with you,

15:48

and if you're willing to plead guilty, we will not indict your brother,

15:54

your younger brother. But if you choose to go to trial. We

16:00

guarantee that your younger brother is going to be sitting in next to you as

16:03

a defender. And I think the way Dan that I would describe it was

16:08

investigation started. We had no idea what we were dealing with. I was

16:12

naive enough to believe that once they discovered the truth, this would And I

16:17

knew the people, I knew him well, I knew the business. I've

16:21

been working with him for three years. I'd been sitting on the trading desk,

16:23

I've been going to road shows, and so I was just convinced that

16:27

would happen. We hired an attorney who was the best known and probably one

16:34

of the great lawyers I'd ever met in my life. Edward been at Williams

16:38

Washington, d C. Who started with Williams Conley Law Room. And ed

16:44

was explaining to me, you could understand this process. It's not like the

16:48

civil process I thought it was. I thought we had an attorney prosecutor and

16:52

wanted to find the truth. We would share information and we would discover the

16:56

truth and would go away. Unbelievably naive. That was than that. He

17:02

explained to me that in the civil process it's a level playing field. Two

17:07

parties each have their lawyers, They take depositions, they're both present for everyone's

17:11

deposition. They issue subpoenas. They both get copies of all the documents said

17:17

in the criminal process. The only party that has any rights and can get

17:21

any documents is the government. In fact, it not only has all the

17:23

rights, it has tremendous amounts of power. It can get any document and

17:29

wants. It has a grand jury, it can subpoena people. They go

17:33

in front of the grand jury, their lawyer has to sit outside. They

17:37

take depositions, and the people under investigation, they don't get anything. Anything

17:45

we know as grandeur is an X party presentation, right. I think that's

17:49

exactly. That's a technical term as an ex party. The only party present

17:52

is the prosecutor takes a deposition. It's a secret process. Nobody's allowed to

17:59

talk about what happens. The person under investigation doesn't get anything. But the

18:03

other power that a prosecutor has, and I'm not saying that every prosecutor uses

18:07

this power in an improper manner, but the power they have is they could

18:12

go to any witness and say we're investigating Michael Milkin, and we're looking at

18:18

this three transactions and you work on them. I've been tould you worked on

18:22

them. Our theory is that they were illegal for this and this and this

18:27

reason. If you could help us, you could be a witness for the

18:30

government. If you can't help us, and we later find that you could

18:36

have helped us, we will indict you. If we indict you, we

18:41

will indict you under what is called the RICO, the racketeering statute, which

18:45

means we could take all your money and we could send you to prison for

18:48

a long time. If you could help us, we'll give you immunity for

18:52

a prosecution. So no matter what you tell us, we will not prosecute

18:56

you. As long as you're telling the truth. You neither have community or

18:59

a t or target on your back. Your choice those right, and you

19:03

know, and it's perfectly legitimate under the system to tell somebody that. Now,

19:07

if I went to the same person and I said, look that we've

19:11

been working together a long time, your bonus is coming up. They're looking

19:15

at these transactions. We think they're wrong. This is what we believe happened.

19:21

You know, if you could help us, that could affect your bonus. I'm going to get indicted for obstruction of justice. I can't do that,

19:27

so I have no rights in this process. So what happened in this

19:33

case the lawyers when Mike said, well, everybody's making a deal. Here

19:37

can I make a deal? And I remember ed Williams the exact word he

19:41

said to us, if you want to take this client, this all famous

19:47

people, all famous heads of companies, and you want to line them up

19:49

from like bowling balls and roll them knock them down. I could go make

19:55

a very good deal with you tomorrow, but I got to do if it's

19:57

okay, Richard, I got a cb a special report coming the bridge in

20:03

Baltimore, and we got a quick newscast. Will come back and we will

20:07

finish the story, and we we will then give people an opportunity to call

20:14

and have a conversation, ask questions back on Nightside right after this CBS news

20:18

special report night Side Ray on Boston's news radio. My guess is Richard Sandler,

20:30

lifelong friend, attorney for Michael Milkin, his book Witnessed to a Prosecution,

20:37

which is published by Forbes Books. So all of a sudden, the

20:41

heat comes down on Milkin and you've told us that he's done everything properly broken,

20:51

no law, and yet he did plead guilty. Why so quart a

20:55

hamp At that point, everybody's making a deal. The government's going out of

20:59

their way to get immunity to people. Everybody but him and his brother.

21:03

And his brother, who, like I said, I was intimately involved there.

21:07

His brother had nothing to do or almost nothing to do with the transactions

21:12

they were looking at. The prosecutors eventually did acknowledge to me sometime later that

21:18

probably if his brother had a different last name, he never would have been

21:22

involved in this case. But it was certainly a leverage point for them to

21:26

bring pressure on Michael. So since Michael was not in a position and certainly

21:30

would not be a person who was going to try to ruin other people's lives

21:36

by making up stories, he wasn't in a position to make a deal with

21:41

the government by turning other people over. Finally we got to a point where

21:45

the government said, look, I think they probably felt the case was difficult,

21:49

but they were willing to certainly try it. They figured they had all

21:52

the weapons on their side, which they did that. They said, look,

21:56

if you will plead to six different things, one could be a conspiracy

22:00

to do the other five. We will make a deal with you. It's

22:06

got to pay a lot of money, but we will find a deal. Mike decided he was going to for the interest of his family, cut his

22:12

losses, and we started working on what could he plead to that would be

22:18

deemed felonies for him to plead to. And we started working on it,

22:23

and we found five transactions if they would accept. Initially they said one has

22:29

to be insider trading. He said that he's not making a deal because he

22:32

didn't do that. He never would do that, and he never did that. So we found transactions that technically violated certain regulations are release deemed to None

22:44

of them, none of them had ever been subject to a criminal prosecution before

22:48

our sense. But we were able to come up with those, and in

22:53

the course of discussions, they said, by the way, if he will

22:56

plead, then we will drop the indict against his brothers. He and his

23:00

brother had already been indicted. Yeah, okay, by the federal government.

23:06

So Mike ended up leading the things. I go into detail exactly what they

23:10

were in the book, because there's been so much misinformation over the years,

23:14

man, I want people to know the facts. I actually quote from the

23:18

plea agreement, I quote from the judges court records of exactly what he did

23:23

and what he did. Great to read. It's a great read, and

23:26

it also puts in context what was done. And of course the issue is

23:33

again either if you want to termine prosecutorial abuse or you want to term it

23:40

prosecutorial overreach. In either case it is it's an unfair system which is used

23:48

against someone. And I should mention that he did do two years and he

23:52

was eventually pardoned. But as I was reading the book, I came to

23:59

understand and that you and Michael enlisted the counsel and the advice of a close

24:08

personal friend who's a friend of yours, who joins us, Harvey Silverglade,

24:15

an attorney here from Boston, along with Alan Dershwitz. You went and you

24:18

saw the movie Reversal of Fortune, and that lit the idea of getting in

24:22

touch with Dershwitz, and along with Alan Dershowitz, Ken comes Harvey Silverglade and

24:29

Andrew Good and let me just work Harvey in here for a little bit.

24:34

Gentlemen, say hello. It's a small world, after all, Richard.

24:42

Richard and I have known each other for a long, long time. Yeah,

24:47

and and Harvey, you know the esteem that I hold you in and

24:51

my audience holds you in. And when we talked about this earlier today,

24:56

this is a case, in your opinion, and you're honest about your clients,

25:00

this is a case you agree with Richard Sandler of actual innocence, which

25:06

basically put Michael Milkin in a situation where he felt compelled to plead guilty to

25:11

crimes that he was not guilty of. There is no doubt that Michael Milkan

25:17

innocent of the crime. None. And let me tell you something Richard has

25:22

written this book. I wrote about the Milkan case a full chapter in my

25:26

book two thousand and nine, Three Selonies a Day? Have the seeds target

25:32

the innocent? And chapter four is following or harassing the money? And in

25:41

this case, the federal government, in my view, used criminal tactics.

25:48

They were the criminals. Why do I say that they held Lowel Milkin,

25:53

Michael's younger brother hostage, that they were going to indict Lowell if my cold

26:00

didn't plead guilty. Do you know what happens Dan? If you or I

26:03

do that, we are indicted and put away for a long time. It's

26:08

called extortion. Yep. They extorted a pleat. That's what they did.

26:15

Is that right? Richard, no question about it? And Harvey, you

26:22

know, look, I know that you have a long and story history with

26:26

criminal prosecutions, and you know have dealt with a lot of different people.

26:32

I know Richard has a wealthy experience. I think both of you know.

26:40

I had an involvement in a case up here that dealt with FBI corruption and

26:45

the framing of innocent men. How rampant is this gentleman in the system.

26:52

Obviously Richard knows the milk and case. Harvey, you know the Milking case,

26:56

not as well as Richard because he's lived with us. How rampant is

27:02

this? Let me start with Richard, Is this the exception to the rule?

27:06

Well, one of the reasons I wrote the book was not only to such the record straight as to who Michael really is, based upon, as

27:12

I said, prosecute the prosecutor's own statements and the court records, but also

27:18

to let people understand that this could happen to anybody. Okay, that the

27:23

powers of the prosecutor, if they are overreached, as you say, this

27:29

could happen to anyone and Harvey's had far more experience than I have. I've

27:34

worked on one case, Okay, I know it intimately backwards and forwards.

27:40

Harvey has represented many, many defendants, many of whom didn't have the resources

27:45

of Michael Milkin. And as I say in the book, is someone with

27:48

Michael's resources could be treated unfairly by the system. What chance did the other

27:55

ninety nine point nine percent of the people that go through the system have.

27:59

So let that answers your question, iry, I assume you would incorperate by

28:03

reference everything that Richard something or two. I would go. I would go

28:10

further in three selonies a day, haven't I started The Innocent? I have

28:15

eight chapters, each one presenting the same picture. This is what we call

28:21

And by the way, I had forty cases. I told my publisher that

28:26

he said, look, you can't write a book with forty cases. It

28:30

will be a telephone book. So think the best ape. I had forty

28:34

cases in which this extortion hostage taking, which is if anybody outside of the

28:41

Department of Justice did it, they would be indicted instantly. You know.

28:47

Here, here's here's that works. When the government wants to get a plea

28:52

and they want to turn the turn your client against someone else, to turn

28:56

someone else in. They have a meeting with the defense floor. It's well

29:00

Queen for a day. It is completely off the record. And in those

29:04

Queen for a day meetings, the prosecutor tells the defense lawyer what he has

29:10

to get from the defendant in order for the defendant to get a good deal,

29:15

what the defendant has to testify against somebody else. The script is written

29:19

by the prosecutor, and then the defendant is told by his lawyer, this

29:26

is the deal. You go to try to get convicted, you get twenty

29:29

years. You make a deal, you get six months of probation. These

29:33

people would testify against their mothers. It is criminal, and yet it's routine.

29:41

Queen for a day. Gentlemen, I want to take a quick pause

29:45

here. I would like to invite callers. And I don't know if anyone

29:49

wants to call it the challenge the theory they were espousing, They're more than

29:56

welcome to, or if they want to just say that it's great that they

29:59

were lawyer. It was like Richard Sandler and Harvey Silverplate, who are still

30:03

practicing. Uh in this in this arena, here's the number six, one,

30:08

seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty, six,

30:11

one, seven, nine, three, one thirty. We'll be back in a couple of minutes. I also want to finish up the story of Michael

30:18

Milken's success post incarceration, UH and UH and set that part of the registrate

30:26

as well. I hope my listeners have enjoyed this conversation and this hour,

30:33

which we still have another segment to go, as much as I have. I feel honored that both of these gentlemen, our friends now uh and and

30:45

are willing to be as honest and candidate as they are about their practice of

30:49

law and what they've had to deal with during their careers. Back on Nightside

30:53

right after this, It's Nice Side with Dany Boston's News Radio. My guest

31:04

from Los Angeles is Richard Sandler, the author of a book Witnessed to a

31:08

Prosecution. The myth of Michael Milkin having joined us is Harvey Silverglade. Ironically,

31:17

back in the late nineteen eighties, when Michael Milkin was the target of

31:26

federal prosecution, one of the prosecutors who were very much involved in this case

31:33

Richard was a guy named Rudy Giuliani. Tell us about that yeah, Well,

31:40

mister Giuliani was the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York,

31:45

which is considered I think, the most prime, powerful, whatever you want

31:48

to call it, office in the Justice Department system. When I met,

31:53

as I mentioned earlier, Edward ben at Williams, he told me that Rudy

31:59

Julie on him was the biggest piece of political meat that he had seen since

32:04

Tom Dewey. Tom Dewey, a former US Attorney for the Central District of

32:08

New York, went on to be Governor of New York and President of the

32:13

United States. As common was that mister Giuliani had the same political ambitions and

32:19

would do anything to further those ambitions. And prosecutors aren't all dishonest in the

32:25

way they use their powers. Some are just trained to believe that they're doing

32:30

it right, and they're just supposed to win at all costs. Some are

32:34

ambitious, okay, such as our prosecutor was ambitious, But it doesn't matter.

32:39

They have these powers and they can be abused. And one of the

32:44

problems I have with the system and why I wrote the book, is that

32:47

prosecutors never ask themselves, what if I'm wrong? Prosecutor has no downside.

32:53

They win, they enhance their career, they get credit for winning the big

32:58

case, especially a high profile case. If they lose, they go on

33:01

to the next case. The person under investigation has no upside. If they

33:07

win, people still think they did something wrong and their reputation has been parnished.

33:12

And if they lose, they lose their freedom, which is a very

33:15

very serious matter. The prosecutor in this case has actually cooperated with you in

33:23

front of law school classes. Correct. Yes, the line prosecutor in this

33:28

case was very gracious and came to a law school class that I taught on

33:31

the subject to discuss his view of the prosecutorial system, having been away from

33:37

it for a number of decades, had his view changed over time. I

33:43

don't think he feels that they did anything wrong or he did anything wrong in

33:46

prosecuting in the case, other though he other than he did say that they

33:52

should not have gone after Lowe Milk, and he did acknowledge that. But

33:55

he talked about what an exercise, using his terms, raw power the prosecutorial

34:01

system is and a warrant is, and how the power of the government is

34:07

so great, and that the prosecutor is trained to win he acknowledged all that.

34:14

Okay, Milken does his time, comes out, does his community service,

34:20

pays a six hundred million dollar fine, all of this, but he's

34:23

re established his life. He also has been involved in the fight against prostate

34:30

cancer, making people realize what a horrible and insidious that disease form of cancer

34:37

that is. He also continues to be very much involved in charitable events.

34:42

He holds conferences every year to which some of the most influential people in the

34:47

country. You would give anything to be invited to attend. And he received

34:53

a full pardon in twenty twenty from President Trump and his I understand that from

35:00

our conversation Rudy Giuliani thirty years later after the prosecution, in effect became an

35:08

advocate for Milkin towards with President Trump to extend this full presidential pardon to Michael

35:16

Milkin. Yeah, you just covered a sever earth topics. Look at Mike

35:22

and his brother established the Milkin's Family Foundation when they're in their thirties, back

35:25

in nineteen eighty two, long before this happened. Really to institutional lives their

35:31

charitable giving, or to at least organize it all under one umbrella private foundation.

35:37

The judge who sentenced him, Judge kimber Wood in the Southern District of

35:39

New York, found is part of the sentencing process that Michael Milkin was one

35:45

of the most unusual people she saw who at such an undong age gave so

35:50

much not of just money but time to all parts of society, including those

35:54

people that were less privileged, that he should get credit for. And he's

35:58

continued doing that as in time life when he was diagnosed with prostate cancer,

36:04

he started the Prostate Cancer Foundation to try to find cures for all serious diseases.

36:09

There are millions of men walking around today that doctors and scientists will acknowledge

36:15

owe their lives to the work that he's done in that area because that's what

36:20

he does. So, yes, he's he's done quite a bit in that

36:24

area. The conference that we hold every year for the Milken Institute, the

36:29

Global Conference, is coming up this May. Brings leaders from government, from

36:35

industry, from education, from healthcare together to look at the most serious problems

36:40

that affect the world and to try to find solutions to those problems. Yes,

36:49

I just want Richard real quickly if he could. I believe as I

36:52

read the book that Giuliani became an advocate for his pardon while he had influence

36:59

in the White House. Correct. Yeah, and I think this tells you a lot about it. Mike milkan Is, a friend of his called him

37:05

one day and said, Rudy Giuliani has prostate cancer. Would you be willing

37:09

to meet with him to see if you could help him? And Mike readily,

37:14

without rec without reticence, said yes and met with him. Juliani did

37:20

become an advocate with two different presidents for Mike to get a pardon. Feeling

37:24

that from his experience in the Justice Department and working in the Pardon division of

37:30

the Justice Department, that Mike milkonstrucked every box more than anyone he'd ever seen

37:36

and deserved to get a pardon. I'm not so sure. I wanted to make a comment. We're getting tight on time. Go ahead, Harvey.

37:43

First of all, you know Mike was diagnosed, as I recall, with

37:46

prostate cancer on his health checkup when he was released from prison. I believe

37:52

that one was discovered. That's correct. But let me just tell you something

37:55

about timber Wood. The reason she gave that massive reduction and sentence is I

38:02

have zero doubt that she understood that he was innocent, that she had been

38:08

fooled by the by the stick put off by the prosecutors, and by the

38:14

end she gave the sentence reduction because she realized was innocent. The best she

38:20

could do was reduced the sentence to let him out of prison. In Harvey,

38:24

if I'm not mistaken, you wrote that roll thirty five petition, and

38:29

I believe yes, Richards, Richard argued it. Yes. Well again we

38:38

all are on that together, and fortunately it was successful. Well, I

38:44

just want to say, Richard, the book Witnessed to a Prosecution, the

38:47

myth of Michael Milkin, I recommended highly, particularly of people who are aspiring

38:53

to be lawyers, because you two represent the best within the within the legal

39:00

fashion. And Harvey, your book Three Felonies a Day is always a great

39:05

read. I just want to thank both of you for spending the time with

39:07

us tonight. I think it was a great hour of radio and I'm indebted

39:12

to both of you for the time. Richard, by the way, a

39:15

great friend, and as is Harvey. Harvey is I said this to you

39:21

earlier, Dan. I respected Harvey from the day I met him. He

39:24

cares about human beings. He cares about the world, and he is a

39:29

principals a person I think as I've ever met, so Harvey, is a

39:31

pleasure to be on this show with you. Dan, I can't thank you

39:35

enough for giving us the opportunity to discuss this matter. Well, I'm totally

39:39

honored you both have presented it so clearly. It's been it's been a wonderful

39:45

class in criminal law, at the at the at the reality level. It's

39:52

it was amazing, It was amazing. I thank you both very much.

39:55

Harvey. We will talk soon, Richard. I hope to meet you someday.

40:00

Look forward to it. Damn, we'll make sure that happens. Eleven

40:02

o'clock News awaits and we have an hour coming up right after that news guest