0:02

Welcome to the national Institute of

0:04

neurological disorders and strokes, building

0:06

up a podcast for neuroscience

0:09

trainees that takes you through the components

0:11

of a grant application with successful

0:13

awardees. We know that applying

0:15

for NIH funding can be daunting, but we're

0:18

here to help. It's our job.

0:21

Hello, I'm Marguerite Matthews, a

0:23

scientific program manager, and I

0:26

N D S.

0:27

And I'm a program director at NIDS

0:30

. And where your host today

0:32

In today's episode, we'll focus on

0:34

the mentor and sponsor statement section.

0:37

We have a slightly different format today, as we have

0:39

invited mentor and mentee

0:41

pairs to talk about their process, we will discuss

0:44

how they ensured that the training plan

0:46

reflected the individual needs of the trainee,

0:48

and that the mentor was able to provide the appropriate

0:51

support and expertise to achieve these

0:53

trainings.

0:55

And as always, our disclaimer still applies

0:57

everything we talk about may only be relevant

1:00

for NIDS . So if you're applying to a different

1:02

NIH Institute or center, it's always best

1:04

to check with them about their policies.

1:12

And for our guests today, we have

1:14

Alexis mobiley and her mentor

1:17

Yarik Aronofsky, Monique

1:19

Mendez, and her mentor, Anya

1:21

Majesco and Margaret

1:24

ho and her mentor, Mark BU . So

1:27

let's get started with introductions, Alexis

1:30

you're up .

1:30

Awesome. So my current

1:32

institution is the university

1:35

of Texas MD Anderson cancer

1:37

center, UT health graduate school

1:39

of biomedical sciences. What

1:41

I focus on and the lab is looking

1:44

at the communication between

1:46

ILC, tos and

1:48

microglia and the aged brain

1:50

between males and females, and trying

1:52

to understand what ways that

1:55

ILC twos either maintain

1:57

or downregulate their cytokine

2:00

signaling to microglia and how microglia

2:02

respond. I'm using mouse models

2:05

so far, I've gotten the diversity

2:07

supplement. I'm working with Dr . Aronofsky,

2:10

and I've also been awarded an F 31.

2:12

That'll start in January. Oh, and

2:14

my career stage, I'm sorry. I'm a fifth year

2:16

PhD student and a

2:19

neuroinflammation at the graduate school. One of my

2:21

hobbies and passions outside of work

2:24

is just being in the community , um

2:26

, in different facets. So I'm currently

2:28

singing with the choir, international

2:30

voices, Houston, which right now we're doing a bunch of virtual

2:32

programming, but I'm also one of the co-founders

2:35

of black and amino. So I've been using

2:37

that stage and platform to help advocate

2:39

and celebrate and support black voices in immunology.

2:42

That's so awesome. Black and immuno has

2:44

been such a delight to just watch.

2:47

I don't know anything about immunology, but

2:49

I very much enjoy seeing you all

2:51

just be so wonderful and share your science

2:54

along with many of the other black in

2:56

STEM groups that are popping up.

2:59

It's awesome. So congratulations

3:00

For being a part of that. Thank you so much.

3:02

Yeah. We have a lot of fun and we

3:04

have a lot of fun with the other black groups as well.

3:06

So it's nice getting to kind of have a party.

3:09

I call it a, an extended family

3:11

reunion for all of us, just to be able

3:13

to celebrate each other.

3:15

Hi, [inaudible]

3:17

I am a professor and the vice chair of neurology

3:20

at university of Texas health science

3:22

center, McGovern medical school.

3:25

I am here for past 35

3:28

years. So it is a quiet quite awhile

3:30

. I have a long experience

3:32

of a interacting with

3:35

diverse group of students from

3:37

graduate students to fellows over

3:39

the years. And I

3:41

have a super pleasure to have

3:44

a interacting with Alexis,

3:46

probably one of the smartest students we

3:48

have here. She is fantastic.

3:51

And when it comes to

3:53

my past , I mean, I'm mainly interested

3:56

in the neurological supervise skull

3:58

or diseases, including ischemic

4:00

stroke. And you just have her hemorrhage and trying

4:02

to understand how actually

4:05

those diseases exist in

4:07

the background of age, as well

4:09

as the other comorbidities , we

4:12

are trying to develop translational

4:15

approaches to actually come up with

4:17

idea how to treat those diseases.

4:20

Uh, when it comes to my hobby, probably

4:22

a sport jogging is something

4:24

that I can safely exercise this

4:27

day . When the COVID is around being

4:29

sometimes lonely in the park makes

4:32

you feel fairly good. Otherwise I love

4:34

classical music and a

4:36

lot of outer intellectual

4:38

challenges.

4:40

We definitely have a lot of runners

4:42

and a lot of musically inclined people

4:44

on this podcast. So I'm wondering if there are particularly

4:48

popular hobbies among scientists for some

4:50

reason.

4:52

Hi everyone. My name is Monique

4:54

Mendez. I am currently

4:56

a postdoc in

4:58

Dr. Mark's knitters lab at Stanford university.

5:01

I applied and received the F

5:03

99 K zero zero grant.

5:06

And I am a member of the second

5:08

cohort. I'm actually smiling

5:10

from ear to ear right now because

5:12

you don't usually run into like other neuro

5:15

monologists that study microglia

5:17

and hearing like Alexis calls about my cochlea.

5:20

I was like, yay, go by cochlea in

5:23

Dr. [inaudible] lab at

5:25

the university of Rochester, where

5:28

I did my F nine nine work. I

5:30

focused on understanding

5:33

and learning about microglia.

5:35

Ontogeny how microglia are born

5:38

and how they mature in the adult mouse

5:40

brain. And we use advanced imaging

5:42

techniques such as enviable to photon my cross

5:44

to be, to really track these microglia

5:47

and understand how they are

5:49

interacting with other cells, how they

5:51

are maturing in the adult brain. And

5:54

my work in Dr.

5:56

Marsh lab at Stanford

5:58

is now focused on another

6:01

type of glial cells known as astrocytes

6:03

and how they participate in

6:05

hippocampal network function and behavior.

6:08

And in terms of a hobby

6:11

kind of going with the theme as well. I love

6:13

classical music. I play violin. I

6:15

love music. And most recently

6:17

I've picked up a little bit of tennis since

6:20

the weather is really beautiful here in California.

6:22

So yeah, I'm really excited to be here.

6:25

Thank you.

6:26

I play string bass. So I feel like we're going to need

6:28

to get together to have a little string

6:31

quartet. We got to find a few other, a

6:33

few other players. Yes,

6:36

we have to

6:38

Tonya Majewski . I'm a professor at

6:41

the , um, university of Rochester

6:43

and the department of neuroscience. I also direct

6:45

our neuroscience graduate program and

6:47

my lab is really interested in how

6:50

, uh , the brain changes with experience.

6:52

Uh , so mechanisms of plasticity, both

6:54

in health and disease and largely focused

6:56

on how different cell types interact lately,

6:59

particularly how microglia and neurons interact.

7:02

And , um, as for a hobby,

7:04

I have three boys between the ages

7:06

of five and 15, and they

7:08

are my hobby. There's pretty much

7:10

nothing else in my life except driving them

7:12

to all their various activities and having

7:14

fun with them. So to

7:17

be like, especially in the pandemic . Yeah .

7:20

Hi everyone. My name is Margaret ho . I'm

7:23

currently a postdoc fellow at Johns Hopkins

7:25

and Baltimore, Maryland, and the school of medicine.

7:27

And I work with Dr. Mark woo . The

7:30

grant that I applied for successfully

7:32

is the K 99 under the brain

7:34

initiative and my research

7:36

aims to study the functional

7:38

and genetic heterogeneity of astrocytes in

7:40

the fly brain and their role in sleep

7:42

behavior. And so I'm really excited to actually,

7:45

so many of us are studying Gloria. That's

7:47

a great cohort. So

7:49

astrocytes are representing a large portion

7:51

of cells in the brain, but they're not as , um,

7:53

studied as well as neurons. People

7:56

have shown that they're important for formation

7:58

and modulation of neural circuits. And

8:01

there's lots of evidence that they play roles in

8:03

signaling and behavior in the brain. Um , and

8:05

the goal of my research is to systematically

8:07

investigate genes related to

8:09

astrocyte heterogeneity and diversity,

8:12

and to study the local astrocyte

8:14

neuron interactions, regulating sleep

8:16

and arousal using imaging and behavior.

8:19

Um , and my plan is also to use these experiments

8:21

to generate genetic tools that

8:23

allow me to study specific astrocyte populations.

8:27

So this was my first application ever for an

8:30

NIH grant , and I've helped former

8:32

PIs rights NH grants before,

8:34

but this is my first time as an applicant,

8:36

but I have applied for other awards, like the NSF

8:39

CIF RP. And one of my favorite

8:41

things to do outside of work is just go

8:43

outside and go running on

8:45

trails and be in nature. I love that. Well

8:48

, we've got the neuro immuno crew and

8:51

the running crew. I

8:53

know it wasn't even on purpose. I swear

8:57

Last but not least. Hi

8:59

everyone. I'm Mark. Woo . I

9:01

am a professor of neurology at

9:03

Johns Hopkins. So , uh,

9:06

you know , my lab is interested in studying the molecular

9:08

and circuit basis underlying sleep.

9:11

We use a fruit flies in mice to

9:13

study these questions. In addition

9:15

to running a basic science lab, I'm also

9:18

a practicing physician. So

9:20

I see patients in sleep medicine clinic

9:22

on a weekly basis, ranging

9:24

from things like narcolepsy and hypersomnia

9:27

and restless leg syndrome to sleep apnea.

9:29

And I also attend on the neurology wards

9:31

in the hospital two to four weeks out

9:34

of the year. And so that was an interesting

9:36

experience that summer when I attended and

9:38

it was during the pandemic and it was a very different experience

9:40

than normal in terms of NIH awards

9:42

that I've received. I guess I've gotten awards throughout

9:44

my , uh, sort of career trajectory.

9:47

When I was a graduate student, I had an F

9:49

31, and then when I was a

9:52

post-doctoral fellow with a meta Seagal, I applied

9:54

and obtained a [inaudible] award. And

9:57

then as a PI, I have gotten multiple

10:00

[inaudible] awards. Um, in terms of my hobbies

10:02

or passions, I think it's pretty much

10:05

in the same boat as Anya. Uh, we have

10:07

two small children who are seven and four.

10:09

And so pretty much when I'm not doing work or

10:11

seeing patients, I'm basically doing stuff

10:13

for them. For example, this fall.

10:16

Um, my daughter did soccer for the first

10:18

time and I was the coach, although I had

10:20

never played soccer before. So I had to,

10:22

like, I had to buy like soccer for dummies,

10:24

read it and then learn all the rules and then coach

10:26

the kids. So that took a while, but it was

10:29

a fun experience. And we did have a, like

10:31

a seven in one record. So I just wanted him to

10:33

point that out there

10:36

wasn't do the coaching. We just had some excellent players.

10:40

Oh , that's great. So

10:46

let's start big picture. We were talking

10:48

about the mentor and sponsor statement. What

10:51

are we trying to achieve with this

10:53

statement with what is its purpose within

10:55

the larger context of the grant?

10:58

So I think when it came to

11:00

my mentor and sponsorship

11:02

statement, it was really important

11:04

for me to highlight that not

11:06

only was I doing the work, but

11:09

in cases where I may not be prepared

11:11

to do the work, how my mentors and sponsors

11:14

were going to help me bridge the

11:16

gap between point a

11:18

and point B, but not only

11:20

that with science, how they were

11:22

going to support me academically

11:25

career wise and make me a

11:27

whole well-rounded scientist

11:29

overall. And so I really

11:31

try to focus on what

11:34

things did I need to be a scientist

11:36

and what I felt like I needed, how my mentors

11:39

were going to be able to supplement that, but then also

11:41

making sure that my mentor saw

11:43

any holes in

11:45

my training, which sounds a little rough,

11:47

but, you know, we, hindsight's

11:50

always 2020. And as

11:52

Dr. Aronofsky mentioned, I mean, he

11:54

Has 35 years of experience. And

11:56

so he's able to see where I'm

11:58

at as a young developing scientist

12:00

and get me to where I need

12:02

to be and where I want to be long-term .

12:05

So I was just going to say, yeah, from

12:07

the mentor perspective about the mentor statement,

12:09

what I try to do is

12:11

really personalize it to highlight

12:14

the particular strengths of that person, because

12:17

every , uh, you know , every person has

12:19

special strengths and special skills.

12:21

And, and so I try to really tailor

12:23

it to their particular situation.

12:26

I'd like to try to tell the story also

12:28

of the narrative of their training and

12:31

how they got to where they want it to be. And

12:33

I want to also emphasize the , the commitment

12:35

and the passion they have for science. And

12:38

then I agree that it's also important to

12:40

talk about how we

12:43

will, as mentors provide the

12:45

training and the background

12:47

to kind of get to where they need to go to

12:49

highlight those areas where they can develop

12:52

and then how we can provide that with very

12:54

specific and detailed points.

12:57

I think that's an important point to make, which is that when you

12:59

write these things both as the mentor

13:01

and the mentee, you want to be specific,

13:04

you want to provide details. You don't

13:06

want to just say, Oh, so-and-so

13:08

loves science. You want to show how they love

13:10

science, which is kind of a common point

13:12

about good writing, which is that you want to show and not

13:15

say. Um, but yeah, I think those are some

13:17

of the basic things I would kind of comment on

13:19

in terms of the mentor statement.

13:21

So if I could add anything, I

13:24

had a, actually the opportunity to seat

13:26

on the AF 31 study

13:29

sections for approximately seven years.

13:31

So reviewing quadrants that are

13:33

similar to Alexis. And one

13:37

thing that actually transpired from that is

13:39

that all of those kids are

13:41

just incredibly smart. And

13:45

right now, in order to

13:47

make someone who you try

13:49

to promote and honest situation, the

13:52

fuel has to be presented as somewhat

13:54

better and or different. Otherwise

13:57

it's very difficult to somebody

13:59

a differentiate them during the review process

14:01

and when it comes to the scientific

14:04

point, I mean, obviously project has to be very

14:06

interesting and I

14:08

believe that the ground should be reading

14:10

the well. However, very often

14:13

helps when you see in the ground

14:16

that basically it is being

14:18

done by the students,

14:20

by the applicants, not necessarily by

14:22

the mentor, otherwise personalize

14:25

us, you have heard personalized.

14:28

And one more personalized, generic

14:30

statements are very boring and not

14:32

necessarily very convincing.

14:34

I think that's a great point to bring up

14:36

about not having generic

14:38

statements, but I think that can be hard,

14:41

right? When so many graduate students are

14:43

having a very similar experience

14:45

in terms of expectations

14:47

set by the graduate program, expectations

14:50

about rigor. And

14:52

If you all would talk about how you work together,

14:54

both the trainee and the mentor

14:57

to ensure that you're on the same page

14:59

and you're not crafting a

15:01

generic mentor statement.

15:04

Yeah, I think in general it seems like

15:06

the most effective mentor statements

15:09

are ones that really like echo the

15:11

detailed plan that , that the applicant themselves

15:13

house has actually come up with. So they shouldn't

15:15

be echoing like the detailed plan, the goals and

15:17

the steps that need to be taken for the

15:20

training of the applicant and the support that's

15:22

needed to make it happen. Yeah , it's

15:25

very much not a generic boilerplate

15:27

,

15:29

But I will say that there are things that are common

15:31

to all graduate students. Like you said, so starting

15:33

off with a generic statement where this,

15:36

these are the points that every graduate student

15:38

needs to have in their experience. We need to

15:40

hit all of these different things. Um,

15:42

now how your path through them might be very

15:44

different. So I do think that

15:47

sort of evaluating strengths and weaknesses

15:49

and having a plan for building

15:51

on the strengths, not just saying, Hey, you're really good

15:53

at that. So we're not going to focus on it because you

15:55

can always do more with strengths and really develop

15:57

them. But then also addressing the weaknesses

15:59

head on and saying, you know, you haven't had as much experience

16:02

in this, and this is an area of growth. You don't

16:04

have to have it be a weakness. Even you can

16:06

phrase it much nicer than that. And

16:08

, um, therefore focusing the plan on

16:10

different areas and supporting

16:12

some areas more than others. But I think starting

16:15

off with the generic plan is actually a great place

16:17

to start and then individualizing

16:19

from there. Yeah .

16:21

I think also as a graduate student, it's important

16:23

to have these constant conversations with

16:25

your mentor. And I think that's what made

16:28

my mentorship statement easily

16:30

personalizable. That's not a word,

16:32

but, you know, because I

16:34

mean, even from the jump when

16:36

I met with Dr. Aronofsky for my rotation,

16:39

I mean the very first conversation we had

16:41

was what do you want out

16:43

of your graduate degree? And I think having

16:46

that idea from the beginning

16:49

really helped me set the stage for anything

16:51

in the future and let me have my goals

16:53

to completing my degree. And so

16:56

even if you may not know until you're writing

16:58

your grant of like, Oh, what do I want

17:01

from this? It's still a journey

17:03

of understanding what you're trying to get out

17:05

of your training. And

17:07

if you still haven't had that conversation with

17:09

your mentor, it's important to start them

17:11

because it's , you can start

17:14

setting goals so that in the

17:16

end you have reached whatever metric you

17:18

want for yourself. Because even

17:20

though we have, you know, the cookie cutter

17:22

qualifications for any program,

17:24

you still are able to personalize it

17:27

for your goals because we aren't all going to

17:29

end up in the same areas

17:31

and the same expertise. So just understanding

17:33

yourself and how your mentors

17:35

can get you to that.

17:37

I'm actually like nodding. So

17:40

like vigorously over here to Alexis.

17:42

Like, I completely agree with

17:44

what she said. I think early on,

17:47

even before Anya and I, about

17:49

the F 99,

17:50

We had these conversations, like

17:53

on your new , I wanted to apply for

17:56

like an F grant of some kind very

17:58

early on. She knew I wanted to pursue

18:00

a post-doc in the future when I

18:02

was done with my PhD. So having

18:04

those conversations, making sure we're

18:06

on the same page, I think that really

18:08

helped us create the mentor

18:11

sponsor statement, like

18:13

very easily and included a lot

18:15

of the information of where I see

18:17

myself in like 10 years. So

18:20

I think one of the biggest things, and I will really

18:22

echo what Alexa said is having these conversations

18:24

really early, making sure you have

18:26

this open communication with your mentor

18:29

so that they know, like, where do you see

18:31

yourself, what you'd like to accomplish

18:33

in your PhD and after.

18:36

And so to that point of thinking

18:39

about, you know , building on my strengths

18:41

and figuring out ways

18:43

to mitigate any potential

18:46

weaknesses that might be there. Uh

18:48

, one of the things that we talk about

18:51

a lot in our offices, this is

18:53

quote unquote gap analysis approach. So

18:55

one of you that used this approach

18:58

wants to explain what it is

19:00

and you might've used it without, without

19:03

actually calling it that, but what it is

19:05

and why it's helpful as a framework.

19:09

Sure. I love gap analyses. And I don't know

19:11

that I use them terribly formally , but

19:13

I think they're very, very useful. The gap

19:15

analysis is basically an evaluation

19:17

of where you are right now, a very Frank

19:20

evaluation of what things look like at the current

19:22

time. And then a very

19:24

clear idea of where you

19:26

want to go. So, as Monique

19:28

said, what are you goals? Where do you see

19:30

yourself in a few years as you're

19:32

finishing grad school after grad school,

19:35

what , what do you want to do in

19:37

the future? And then charting out

19:40

a path between where you are now and the goals

19:42

that you see for yourself. And

19:45

we've already touched on this, but as you go

19:47

from where you are now, you realize what

19:49

things need to be done, what things are missing,

19:52

and you can chart a very specific

19:54

plan for how to get

19:57

to the future. And I think that's,

19:59

I think it needs honesty in both your view

20:02

for the future, both of your assessment of

20:04

where you are right now. But I think that's where

20:06

all the power of it lies is where you realize,

20:08

well, I really will need X and I just

20:10

not there yet. Um, and then you can

20:12

write a very specific plan for what kind of

20:15

framing you need to get to your goal.

20:17

And I think those kinds of specifics and

20:19

laid out goals, milestones

20:22

are really powerful. And I think that's what

20:24

really moves reviewers on these panels

20:27

is if you see that someone's thought

20:29

it through very, very carefully and

20:31

they have a really good plan with very,

20:34

very specific things and that

20:36

will get them to where they want to be. And I

20:38

think the other point I want to make about this

20:40

is that you are not beholden

20:43

to the plan. In fact, most of the reviewers

20:45

will not say, Oh my goodness.

20:47

You know, in your report

20:48

A year out, she's doing something

20:50

completely different. This is not what we gave her money

20:52

for. People expect plans to change, but

20:55

they also want to see that you've thought about

20:57

things carefully, that you can make

20:59

good plans. And then if you have to pivot, that's

21:02

great. So, you know, you don't have to feel

21:04

like you're really locking yourself into something,

21:06

but you're just showing that you're very thoughtful

21:09

about what you mean .

21:11

And I think the thoughtfulness piece is what helps

21:13

separate a generic mentor

21:15

statement and training plan from one

21:17

that says, I know that this person is going

21:19

to do everything else. These other graduate students are

21:21

doing in terms of expectations, but

21:24

this , this specific training

21:26

needs these things to strengthen

21:28

their abilities, to become a stronger

21:30

scientist. So that's , uh , those are really great points.

21:33

Anya , thank you.

21:34

Yeah. And keeping your latter

21:36

point at that plans can change. We did

21:38

have an episode in season one

21:40

where we talked about, you know,

21:43

where is the line between

21:45

a natural expected change and

21:47

a change that might need a program director's

21:50

input it's um, if you have

21:52

a substantial change

21:54

in your research direction is like, then you're

21:56

going to want to check in with your program officer. But, but

21:58

that happens too. Sometimes people even changed mentors.

22:01

And, and so if that's a

22:03

situation that any of our listeners find themselves

22:05

in, like, please go back to season

22:07

one. We did touch on that as well. So

22:09

thank you for bringing up both those points.

22:12

So I think actually I didn't realize

22:14

that we were doing a gap analysis,

22:16

but I think the way that Mark and

22:18

when we have our meetings, it kind of ends up being

22:20

kind of like a gap analysis. So, you

22:22

know, we'll have some meetings that are very focused

22:25

on data and experiments of plans for those things.

22:27

But then we'll also have periodically these meetings

22:29

where Mark will say, these are some

22:32

short-term goals, but then like, what are your midterm goals?

22:34

And specifically, what do you think you

22:36

need to do? Um , where do you actually need

22:38

to put your effort to get there?

22:41

Um, so I think that's very, very helpful to actually outline

22:44

those specific steps. So I didn't

22:46

know that was doing gap analysis, but when I looked up what gap

22:48

analysis was, I was like, yeah, that's actually what we've been

22:50

doing.

22:51

It doesn't matter what you call it, it's that you're taking

22:54

part in it. And you're effectively

22:56

evaluating yourself, allowing others

22:58

to evaluate you right. And say,

23:00

Hey, where do you think I am on this? Or I

23:03

need to pivot because you might just need a

23:05

new set of skills to carry out a different part,

23:07

a different experiment.

23:09

I think it's definitely very important because

23:11

applying for the K9 nine, you really are. I mean, the

23:13

whole grant is kind of like a gap analysis

23:15

in a way, because you're, you're saying, you

23:17

know, I'm here, I'm a mid or senior post-doc

23:20

and you know, I want to be at the stage where I want to be an

23:22

independent investigator and what do I need to do

23:25

to , to get there.

23:27

And Mark, do you have anything else to add in

23:29

terms of how you see the nest , the

23:31

need for finding these areas

23:34

for growth? What , what was your approach?

23:36

Was it trial and error? Did you, did

23:38

you figure this out as you went along or was it something

23:40

that you yourself experienced as a trainee?

23:44

No , I, my take

23:46

On this as far as gap analysis

23:48

and actually even related to the other questions

23:50

is to be an effective mentor. You

23:52

have to kind of know your mentee and

23:55

you have to care about them. And I think

23:57

that those are kind of the first two principles

23:59

. And so I tried my best

24:02

and it gets harder as the lab grows in size

24:04

to get to know them as people to

24:06

understand their kind of working

24:09

style, the way they think about things.

24:11

And it's because some people respond better to

24:14

certain approaches and some

24:16

people do better with other kinds of strategies.

24:18

So I think, I think that's really the heart of it is to get

24:20

to know the CR the mentee and then

24:22

care about their success. And then I think everything

24:25

kind of flows from that. I mean, then it becomes the details

24:27

of, okay, we need to remember to sit down periodically.

24:30

I usually call them sort of like what Margaret

24:32

mentioned it . I just sort of call them the sit-downs. And I say

24:34

at the beginning of those meetings that we're not going to talk about

24:36

your work or your science, but we're going to talk about

24:39

your career trajectory, your goals.

24:41

And I think NIH has all these things like

24:44

IEP plans and things like that, which I was kind of , I've kind

24:46

of been doing this before all these acronyms

24:48

and abbreviations came up, but it's all

24:50

really the same idea, which is just meet and

24:53

talk about their goals and plans and then sort

24:55

of like, and get to know them and really talk about

24:57

that . I think that that, that makes for a more effective

25:00

mentor , mentee relationship and open communication

25:02

and that , which I think helps. So I guess

25:04

that's kind of how I would respond to how I

25:07

sort of look at addressing these kinds of things.

25:09

I love that

25:10

One VoLumen that in my opinion,

25:13

is tremendously important in

25:15

the training is interacting with

25:17

the Otter graduate students . I think

25:19

that very often we are being

25:21

treated as someone who they have a

25:23

little bit of a distance door and

25:26

therefore probably facilitating

25:29

their ability to interact with

25:31

different places who

25:33

basically are aligned with

25:36

their interests are aligned . Those are projects

25:38

and allowing them to learn or

25:41

new new concept is tremendously

25:43

important. Obviously all of that has to be

25:45

under control of demand mentor,

25:48

but I believe that a lot of energy

25:51

in graduate students, as well as

25:53

the Paul's books comes from their ability

25:55

to interact with the ride group

25:57

of colleagues.

25:59

I don't think we really have touched on this yet, but

26:02

, um , one of the things that we recommend, including

26:04

in the mentor statement and sort of in

26:06

your role in general are milestones.

26:09

And so once you've established your goals, you need

26:11

to find ways of measuring whether you're meeting

26:13

those goals or not. So how

26:16

did you approach establishing your

26:18

milestones and formulating them?

26:20

Did you feel like this was a relatively straightforward

26:23

and easy task, or was it something that you struggled

26:25

with?

26:26

So I think something that's really good

26:28

about their graduate school is that we actually

26:31

have a list of the cookie cutter milestones

26:33

that we have to meet. And we have to meet

26:35

with our mentors each year and get the signs

26:37

and go over it and having that

26:40

cookie cutter type thing, I was

26:42

able to put in

26:44

what I wanted to do with each year

26:46

to help me set the goals that I wanted

26:49

to, to reach. Um, and so

26:51

I think that was really helpful

26:53

when it came to just science in general.

26:56

Um, another thing that our graduate school also

26:58

incorporates is the individual development

27:00

plan or the IDP, and being

27:02

able to do that and also have those milestones

27:05

a little bit more objectively, I would say

27:07

, um, is also nice. Cause then you just kind

27:09

of get these reminders like, Hey,

27:11

you said you were going to do this. And

27:14

so that helps keep you accountable, but

27:16

then it also helps you realize like, okay, maybe

27:18

I didn't hit this milestone because of X , Y

27:20

, Z . So this is how we're gonna change

27:22

the plan, or this is how we're going to , you know,

27:25

circumnavigate this. And I think that's always

27:27

important with science is just being able to be flexible.

27:30

You can have everything perfectly written out and

27:32

in some parallel universe it's going to work,

27:35

but we're here on this earth and

27:37

that's not always how it works. And so

27:39

, um , I think it's nice if you

27:41

may not maybe, you know, your graduate school doesn't

27:43

provide something like that, but I think it's so

27:45

easy if you look

27:47

at whatever's required of you. Um,

27:49

and then just set that to a timeline was

27:52

always important. And so that just keeps

27:54

everybody accountable in the longterm .

27:56

So I think what I did

27:58

in terms of making sure I was on top of

28:00

my milestones was that I

28:03

actually pointed out my training

28:05

plan that I sent into the NIH for my F

28:07

99. And I expanded on that and

28:10

I would check that like periodically,

28:13

and that was my internal

28:16

like check to make sure that I was meeting

28:18

all the goals that I wanted to, in

28:20

terms of my professional development,

28:23

the conferences I'd like to do the

28:25

papers and the reviews I'd like to

28:28

send out for that year. And

28:30

I would also bring up any

28:33

of the things that I was having trouble getting

28:35

to that goal to Anya making sure like

28:37

we were both on the same page, but one

28:40

of the really nice things that I

28:42

appreciated too, was my committee meetings.

28:45

I feel like those were really a good

28:47

place to really put things

28:49

into perspective and having

28:51

like a number of like experts

28:54

essentially in like your project and you

28:56

, there was really helpful to

28:59

give you an idea of you telling

29:01

them, okay, these are the goals I'd like to set. And

29:03

then kind of bringing you back a little bit. Can

29:05

you share, you are actually

29:07

like thinking about everything

29:10

and all the work that you have to do. So that

29:12

was really, really helpful for me

29:14

to remain accountable

29:17

and also to achieve the goals

29:19

that I set out for that year.

29:23

I think it's great that they allowed you the space to kind

29:25

of just dream big and, you know, you can

29:27

scale it back in terms of what goes on

29:29

paper, right? Like what's actually submitted

29:32

and even, you know, kind of keeping you on track.

29:34

Like, well, maybe that's a little ambitious in that sense,

29:36

but not telling you, you have to

29:38

think realistically about this, right? Like it's

29:40

a nice have , uh , a

29:42

Really large scope, you know, you shoot for

29:44

the moon and then you sort of like, say, okay,

29:46

wait , are you , the star over here is like a good

29:48

place to , to actually

29:50

target for a takeoff

29:52

, so to speak. But

29:55

I think it's really important when you do come up with

29:57

your milestones to , um,

29:59

to think, realistically, I think that's something

30:01

that I see in study section all the time is you

30:03

want to strike this really

30:06

delicate balance between being ambitious

30:09

and doing lots of things that will provide

30:11

you with fantastic training. And this is true

30:13

for the training plan. It's also true for the scientific

30:15

plan as well. So you want to

30:17

do cool things and you want to do

30:19

a lot of things that will help you in the future,

30:22

but you don't want to do so or propose

30:24

so much that it's actually taking away

30:26

from your training and keeping you from publishing

30:28

your papers and getting your experiments

30:30

done. So there's a very, there's a very tight

30:33

balance. And I think that's something when you're looking at

30:35

your milestones, you have to

30:37

sort of get outside from yourself and say,

30:40

this is great, but which are the most important

30:42

ones what's going to be realistic. What's going

30:44

to be critical to my development rather than

30:46

just sort of more stuff that would

30:48

be fun to do.

30:51

It's , it's interesting to hear how

30:53

do you actually go about achieving and making,

30:55

making yourself accountable to all these milestones?

30:57

Because in the postdoc , it's not as structured

30:59

as the graduate program where it's very

31:01

clear, you're going to have at least yearly committee

31:04

meetings, you're going to be accountable to

31:06

having a lot of opportunities to present your science

31:08

. So I think with the postdoc , you have to be a lot more

31:10

intentional and actually outlined

31:12

your specific plan for, you know, what

31:14

conferences do you want to go to? Where do you actually

31:16

intend to present your work? When are you going

31:18

to meet with your mentors, not only your primary

31:21

mentor, but also all your co mentors and

31:23

your advisors. So I think , um , it's

31:26

pretty important to actually write that in the grant.

31:28

Like certain ones I will meet with them every six months

31:30

or if some of them I meet with them monthly. Yeah.

31:32

So being very specific about those things

31:35

and finding the opportunities that

31:37

the less intuitive look attending

31:40

and participating in the lab meetings of your comment or

31:42

things like that. I think

31:44

having that constant feedback on your science

31:47

from a variety of different places is

31:49

going to be helpful to make sure that you

31:51

are progressing in a way that's efficient.

31:55

I think that's a great point, especially to your point

31:57

about postdocs . You're almost like the stepchildren

32:00

that kind of get forgotten. You don't really

32:02

have any structure it's really

32:05

kind of throwing you into the fire and allowing you

32:07

to really take charge of how

32:09

you want to be trained and being able to communicate

32:12

that with the person you're training

32:14

under and perhaps other people at

32:16

the university or in your, in your department

32:18

that , that are going to help you achieve those goals so

32:21

that you can move into independence.

32:25

Yeah. It's hard when you don't have a set timeline, but

32:27

you have to kind of make it for yourself. Yeah.

32:30

I'm, I'm actually like in the beginning

32:32

stages of my post-doc month too

32:35

. So I know Margaret has more experience

32:37

, but one piece of advice I got from

32:39

a postdoc , a senior postdoc was that very

32:42

similar to what Margaret said is you have to be deliberate.

32:45

You have to seek out

32:47

, um , these meetings and making sure

32:49

you're presenting your research and

32:52

just checking on yourself essentially

32:54

to making sure you're meeting those milestones

32:57

over time.

32:59

So how did you all make sure

33:01

that the mentor sponsor

33:04

statement is integrated with , um

33:06

, and compliments the rest of the grant and

33:09

that it all felt like one cohesive application,

33:12

especially since you , uh, since the trainees

33:14

are expected to write the majority

33:17

of this, how do you make sure that it all looks

33:19

like the shows that you have really

33:21

been thoughtful about your research proposal,

33:23

but also your training plan and your mentor

33:25

is also thinking about all of these things.

33:29

What I remember is that in terms

33:31

of the order of writing the grants,

33:33

the writing, the mentoring was actually came

33:35

like on the later side of things. So,

33:37

I mean, we had conversations obviously about the

33:40

mentor statement before, but it's really, after

33:42

you have written your research

33:44

plan and after you've written your training plan,

33:46

that the mentor plan actually comes in to

33:48

it later, where it's outlining,

33:50

what's the mentor's role in supporting

33:53

and assuring that the other

33:55

stuff happens if you do, after you've written

33:57

the training plan and have decided on the training plan

33:59

and the research plan, then the mentor statement

34:01

kind of just comes and surrounds it.

34:04

I have a slightly different take on that. I do

34:06

agree that there has to be a last

34:08

pass to make sure it's integrated with the rest

34:10

of the grant. But I do think

34:12

that basically giving yourself lots of time

34:15

and that's not something Monique and I did

34:17

cause we, we submitted her grant very quickly, but

34:20

it really helps to give yourself

34:22

lots of time to review revise.

34:24

And I think the sponsor statement should

34:27

be revised at the very last pass

34:29

as well. And I think that I found

34:31

with other students that their scientific

34:34

plan, when we write it might go in a slightly

34:36

different direction than we expected if

34:38

it wasn't quite as worked out ahead of time.

34:40

And then you have to add elements that

34:43

that will provide the training for that scientific

34:45

plan. So I think, you know, having everything

34:47

set and buttoned up and then giving yourself

34:50

a couple of weeks to go through it and make

34:52

sure they all the elements align and they're all in place

34:54

is a , is the way to go. I think few

34:56

of us write grants that way, but that

34:59

I think would certainly help a lot.

35:03

So I remember when I was writing

35:05

through this grant, I felt like I was

35:07

constantly repeating myself, but

35:10

just saying things slightly different. So

35:13

make it tailored to whatever I

35:15

was writing. I felt like it was a massive

35:18

echo chamber, but I think that's also

35:20

important because I

35:22

know this was my first time ever writing a grant

35:25

and everything in the grad school had said,

35:27

Oh, you know, it's just a seven page document.

35:29

You have your specific aims and your six page

35:31

research, you know , training plan. I was like, Oh, that's

35:34

great. But then when you sit down and look

35:36

at it, it ends up easily, a 70

35:38

page document that has to go through

35:40

so many different people. And

35:42

so having to keep track of all of that.

35:44

But I think even when I

35:46

may not have seen something

35:49

for a long time, I knew my story was

35:51

cohesive because even if I picked it back

35:53

up, I was still able to say, Oh,

35:55

this was this portion. And it still

35:58

matches what I'm doing here.

36:00

So even though it may seem very,

36:02

very redundant. I think if you

36:05

have that echo chamber in your head, it

36:07

will continue to shine well

36:09

with your other documents, because

36:11

then you know, that your story is cohesive

36:14

because you are saying the same thing. Um,

36:16

and so if there's any discrepancies, then

36:19

you're able to kind of cross check all of your

36:21

documents and know, Oh, well

36:23

I missed this portion or this

36:25

part is lacking. I mean , I think that

36:27

was really helpful in the end, just

36:29

knowing that I had this redundancy,

36:31

but also was able to make that section

36:34

shine really helped with writing

36:36

and making sure my story was consistent.

36:40

Yeah. Doing that last check of seeing

36:43

it was a very recursive document referring to itself

36:45

over and over. But just doing

36:47

that last pass where you check that everything's

36:50

internally consistent is really important because the reviewers

36:52

will notice if it, if it isn't.

36:54

Oh yeah. Yes, they will .

36:57

One thing that I would probably like to

36:59

chime in is that , uh

37:02

, obviously it depends on the stage, but probably every

37:05

single stage. And very often it applies even

37:07

to ourself is to understand

37:09

the big picture and actually simplify

37:11

it. So very often graduate

37:14

students are just simply chopped that

37:16

they know a little bit here, a little bit there. And,

37:18

and the time when it comes to writing

37:21

your grants, you need to basically see

37:23

where it belongs. And

37:25

so you can actually present it as

37:27

a piece that is missing

37:29

and it , that you do understand

37:32

where it belongs . So I think

37:34

that being able to explain

37:36

and allow the students and

37:39

post-docs to sympathy where they are when it

37:41

comes to a, the grant

37:43

moving, the big feature is very important,

37:46

then go to details. I

37:48

also believe that obviously we all

37:50

know that there is something like

37:53

grantsmanship. So we all know that there has

37:55

to be some sort of a elements

37:57

of novelty and novelty

37:59

to just simply realize may come

38:02

from the scientific point of view, but also

38:04

kind of come from the technical point of view. And

38:06

actually both are very important. So

38:09

if you a using this advance

38:12

in the very novel project, what

38:14

sort of tools are you using? I mean, you may

38:16

have a choice to use this or the outer

38:18

technique. And so often using

38:20

technique obviously uses the past , but also at

38:22

the same time, trying to maybe

38:24

go ahead and propose

38:27

the ethics that are being

38:30

challenging and to recognize that Oh , and more assuring.

38:33

So the component of novelty,

38:37

It's a very important, especially

38:39

for a great

38:44

point. All

38:49

right . Well, thank you all for sharing your wisdom

38:52

with us and our audience today.

38:54

Can I ask each of you for one last piece

38:57

of parting advice for future

38:59

applicants and for the mentors

39:01

who will be assisting in some of these applications?

39:06

I think it's already been stated, but be

39:08

honest with yourself and be honest with your

39:10

mentor. Um, it may seem

39:12

scary. I know graduate students are still kind of

39:14

learning their place in the hierarchy if

39:16

you will, but the grant

39:18

is really the time to kind of establish

39:21

that and establish who you are on

39:23

a national platform. And so

39:25

even though you may not fully know that

39:27

it's a great time, you know,

39:29

I felt a lot closer to my mentors

39:31

just because we went through this grant writing process

39:34

and being able to really map out

39:36

my future and put it in writing , um

39:38

, and get that recognition for better,

39:40

for worse. You know, once you get your scores,

39:42

it's all up in the air, but I mean,

39:45

it's, it's a really cool process.

39:48

It's stressful, but when you get

39:50

through it, then I feel like, you

39:52

know, so much more about yourself and your science.

39:55

So even though it may be daunting,

39:57

just do it and learn to use

39:59

your words and your platforms and your conversations

40:02

to shape what you want out of your

40:05

not only grant, but like what you want out of your degree.

40:09

I'll follow up on that. I would say

40:11

one piece of advice would be to

40:14

communicate with your mentor, communicate

40:16

early, make sure that you both

40:18

are on the same page. And

40:21

I would say, yeah, that's like

40:23

the biggest thing I would say that really helped

40:25

, um , us, right ? The

40:30

[inaudible] and also a

40:32

really important thing is to set milestones

40:34

and realistic goals for yourself that,

40:37

you know, you can accomplish during

40:39

this period. And one thing

40:41

that Anya and some other mentors mentioned

40:44

it's that the research is a big portion

40:46

of the grant, but creating

40:49

a balanced, like approach

40:52

to your grant , including professional development,

40:55

writing papers and so on is also important

40:58

aspects of your training on your career.

41:00

And yeah, that's all I have.

41:03

I can go, I guess I have two pieces

41:05

of advice. One just from serving on

41:07

these study sections for the last few years, I

41:10

will say that the standards keep changing. I

41:12

think that applicants, both sponsors

41:14

and mentees are getting more and

41:16

more sophisticated about the

41:18

kinds of grants they put in. So

41:20

if you're going to look at successful

41:22

examples when you're looking at something from

41:25

five years ago, that might no longer

41:27

be a successful grant. So

41:29

look at things that are more recent

41:32

and for applicants, it

41:34

is, it is brutal. There

41:36

are so many talented, talented

41:39

applicants like you. And if that's a

41:41

that's great news for science, it's fantastic,

41:44

but it is really tough to get

41:46

funded and don't give

41:48

up. I have had some fantastic

41:50

students in my own lab who have had to put in

41:52

their grants two or three times before

41:54

they were successful. And

41:57

, um, they are now, you

41:59

know, very successful scientists in their own

42:01

rights . So don't, don't get

42:03

too disappointed when you don't get funded. Just

42:05

try again.

42:08

Uh , I'll add , um, I mean, you guys gave

42:11

me great advice already, but I'd

42:13

also add that, you know, starting

42:15

early and getting

42:17

comfortable with having a lot of revisions

42:19

and not being too wedded to all the specific

42:21

components into your grants is maybe

42:23

one lesson that I learned throughout this process.

42:26

So, you know, as you're writing the

42:28

grant, you might be, you might love like a

42:30

specific aim, but actually if you just, if you just

42:32

show your grant to a lot of different people, you'll

42:35

get a lot of great comments and also

42:37

try to send your, give

42:39

your grant to, to other people, to read people

42:41

who are not necessarily in your direct field. Maybe

42:44

other people who are say like also

42:47

neuroscientists , but aren't specifically working in your model system

42:49

or working on your specific concept. I think that's very

42:52

helpful. I definitely use

42:54

the, we have an internal, I guess, internal

42:56

review panel at Hopkins that

42:58

my grant went through. And that was very helpful because

43:00

you definitely get comments from people

43:02

who are not so intimately

43:05

familiar with your specific topic. Um,

43:07

that's that reflects more the type of

43:09

people who are going to review your grant, not just you

43:11

and your advisor and your little echo chamber.

43:14

I think it's a really great idea

43:17

to start from this specific aim page.

43:21

And there were even some studies done by

43:23

NIH when they have this trigger

43:26

grounds versus the specific aims

43:28

to some group of specialists.

43:31

And default was actually the identical

43:33

that the same grants almost been supported

43:36

based on the specific games versus

43:39

the whole ground. So by

43:41

basically reviewing grounds for past 20 years,

43:44

I can tell you that the

43:46

climate that you will produce

43:49

by reading specific aim page

43:51

is going to last for all the remaining

43:53

pages. So either the impression of

43:56

the ground from the very beginning is

43:58

positive and you learn a lot.

44:01

It is so much easier to be

44:03

supportive for the remaining pages. So

44:07

I think that that's also

44:09

helps to clarify your

44:11

ideas and to prioritize

44:13

your experiments . And

44:15

then if you do have the specific

44:18

aim idea and then

44:20

select the experiments and , and

44:22

provide the background for us so

44:25

much easier to keep up with

44:28

a remaining portion of the grant and the right

44:30

that then the more

44:33

Way , and there is less distraction

44:36

because you already have some template

44:38

of what you want to achieve. So

44:40

the remaining seven pages for six pages,

44:42

you have to write a much simpler

44:46

for you.

44:47

Certainly if you have a good framework

44:49

and a good first impression, it

44:52

certainly makes things a lot easier.

44:55

I was , uh , just gonna address, I

44:57

guess, what is our advice for mentees

44:59

who are having challenges talking about,

45:01

you know, some of these issues or training plans

45:03

or things with their mentor. So

45:06

at Hopkins, I also serve on

45:08

the post-doctoral fellow advisory board

45:11

where we deal with the training and

45:13

the welfare of all postdocs across the school

45:15

of medicine. And so

45:17

this issue comes up sometimes when, for

45:19

example , uh , trainees or mentees

45:22

that have decided that they want to pursue

45:24

a diverse career path and not necessarily

45:26

an academic scientific path. And

45:29

sometimes, unfortunately the mentors

45:31

are not supportive. And so

45:33

my advice in those situations is basically

45:35

the trainees should not be

45:37

afraid to have direct and open communications

45:40

with our mentor at early stages, even

45:42

when you're rotating. Really, if, for example,

45:45

if there's a graduate student who is not sure

45:47

that they want to do academics and is

45:49

interested in different paths that you

45:51

talk to your mentor and just be direct about

45:53

it, or you could directly ask the mentor,

45:56

how will you support me if we do write a

45:58

K grant or something like that together.

46:00

And, and then if it turns out that you guys

46:03

that the mentee and mentor have sort of different goals

46:05

and different paths, then maybe it's not

46:07

the best fit, you know, and that's better always

46:09

better to figure out early than later.

46:12

Lauren, do you have any advice for

46:15

audience?

46:17

I'll just reiterate something we talked about earlier,

46:20

which is that this

46:23

plan that you put in your application doesn't

46:25

have to include every single thing that you're doing.

46:27

You can do more than what you put

46:29

in there. So you

46:31

really want to think about like

46:34

presenting the reviewers with

46:36

a very nice, well thought out,

46:39

easy to read, easy to understand

46:42

justified story.

46:45

And it's okay if you're planning

46:47

on doing other things that you don't include

46:49

in there because they for viewers

46:51

might think that they were a distraction or over ambitious.

46:54

So just , um , definitely

46:56

take Margaret's advice and give it to

46:58

lots of people to read and , and take their feedback

47:00

seriously and , and make sure that your grant

47:03

is just wrapped up with a

47:05

nice little book

47:06

And Margaret , what about you? Yeah, I'd

47:09

like to also amplify what

47:11

has been said previously about

47:13

the relationship between mentor

47:15

and mentee. It's an opportunity

47:17

to, to really get

47:20

a chance to show your interest

47:22

, but also where you think you need

47:24

to improve and where your mentor

47:26

thinks you need to improve. I think that's

47:29

something we

47:30

Do naturally. You just want to hit the

47:32

ground running. And as a PhD student, I think

47:34

many of us can relate. We're so ambitious

47:36

and we want to do it on our own and show how,

47:39

how great we are and thinking

47:41

about a weakness as something

47:43

that has to be a negative, but really it's just

47:45

an opportunity to grow and mature

47:47

as a scientist. And that shouldn't happen

47:50

in isolation, right? This should be something

47:52

that you are constantly working on with

47:54

your mentor. And I think putting

47:57

together the application and particularly

47:59

the mentor statement, it gives you an

48:01

opportunity to be very Frank

48:03

about what the expectations are,

48:05

what the desire is to move forward.

48:08

And it should be something that if you

48:11

aren't able to have that sort of conversation,

48:13

that it may be assigned to

48:15

find another training opportunity.

48:18

And sometimes that doesn't, it doesn't

48:20

sound like a great thing, but I think to Mark's point

48:22

earlier, it may be something that

48:25

has to happen in order for you to

48:27

be able to have the best training experience

48:29

possible. Um, and I think that's

48:31

one of the great things about many of these training opportunities

48:34

is that you're sort of forced to now think about

48:36

these things that maybe you can easily

48:38

just sweep under the rug, because you're just going

48:41

through the motions, going through your program as normal.

48:44

Um, and this really brings to light your own

48:47

interests and how those aligned with that of the mentor.

48:49

So,

48:50

Yeah ,

48:58

So that's all we have time for today on

49:00

building up the nerve. So thank you to our

49:02

guests this week for sharing our expertise

49:04

and thank you to Nan DS

49:06

program director, Dr. Bob riddle for

49:09

composing our theme song and music. We'll

49:11

see you next time. When we talk , uh , letters of

49:13

recommendation and letters of support,

49:16

And you can find past episodes of this podcast

49:18

and many more grant application resources

49:21

on the web at, and I N D

49:23

s.nih.gov.

49:25

You can follow us on Twitter at, and I N D S

49:28

diversity and, and I N D S funding,

49:31

email us your questions at, and I N

49:33

D S nerve [email protected]

49:35

and make sure you subscribe to the podcast on

49:38

Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast

49:40

app. So you don't miss an episode. We'll

49:42

see you .