0:00

[intro music] Welcome

0:00

to Season Three of the National

0:04

Institute of Neurological Disorders

0:04

and Stroke's Building Up the Nerve

0:08

where we help you strengthen your

0:08

mentoring relationships with tools and

0:11

advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can

0:14

be daunting, but we're here to help.

0:17

It's our job. [music fades]

0:21

Hello, I'm Marguerite

0:21

Matthews, a program director at NINDS.

0:25

And I'm Lauren

0:25

Ullrich, a program director at

0:28

NINDS and we're your hosts today.

0:29

In the last

0:29

episode, we discussed finding mentors

0:32

and building a mentoring team. In this episode, we are talking with

0:34

mentor- mentee pairs about how they

0:38

develop productive relationships,

0:38

including aligning their expectations

0:43

and working through challenges. [musical interlude]

0:50

Our guests today are Dr.

0:52

Avi Rodal, Dr. Matthew Pescosolido, Dr.

0:56

Kay Tye, and Dr. Austin Coley.

0:58

So let's get started with our introductions.

1:01

My name is Avi Rodal,

1:01

and I'm an Associate Professor of

1:04

Biology at Brandeis University.

1:06

I've been here running my

1:06

independent lab since 2010.

1:10

My research lab here at Brandeis

1:10

studies how, um, intracellular membrane

1:16

traffic machinery is specially deployed

1:16

in the nervous system to do all the

1:21

specialized things that neurons need

1:21

to do, including rapidly recycling

1:26

neurotransmitters, moving growth

1:26

factors and signaling molecules for

1:31

long distances, including between cells.

1:34

So lately we've been working a lot on

1:34

extracellular vesicles, and we're mostly

1:38

using the fruit fly nervous system as

1:38

our experimental model because it's

1:43

amenable to genetics and also a lot

1:43

of really fun live imaging using all

1:50

the latest developments in microscopy. Three words that describe my

1:52

mentoring philosophy are invested,

1:57

uh, supportive, and honest.

2:01

I'm Matthew

2:01

Pescosolido and I'm a post-doctoral fellow

2:05

in the Rodal lab at Brandeis University.

2:08

And I'm interested in understanding

2:08

how a particular form of cell

2:12

to cell communication known as

2:12

extracellular vesicles, or EVs,

2:17

are harnessed by the nervous system

2:17

for central processes, as well as

2:21

their role in neurological disease. Now, although EVs have been found

2:23

to mediate synaptic plasticity in an

2:27

activity dependent manner, we don't fully

2:27

understand the underlying mechanisms and

2:33

that's what I'm currently investigating. And through this work in Drosophila,

2:35

we found an interesting relationship in

2:40

which a key synaptic protein associated

2:40

with synaptic plasticity regulates

2:45

EV cargoes to form new synapses

2:45

in an activity dependent manner.

2:49

Ultimately, I hope to uncover how

2:49

EVs support, fundamental neurological

2:53

processes, how EV dysfunction can

2:53

bleed to disease and whether EVs can

2:59

be used as an effective treatment

2:59

strategy for neurological diseases.

3:04

And I would describe, uh, my

3:04

mentoring style or philosophy as

3:07

anchor, empowering, and guiding.

3:10

My name is Kay Tye. I'm the Wylie Vale Chair at the Salk

3:12

Institute and an HHMI investigator.

3:17

And I'm interested in understanding

3:17

the neural circuit underpinnings

3:20

of emotion and social processes.

3:23

Essentially my lab is focused on

3:23

dissecting and providing quantitative

3:29

biological mechanistic level understanding

3:29

of psychological concepts, things

3:34

like anxiety states or depression or

3:34

substance use disorders and states that

3:40

are relevant to psychiatric disease. If I were to describe my mentoring style

3:42

or philosophy in three words, um, they

3:49

would be authentic, transparent, and fun.

3:52

Fun. I like fun!

3:54

At least that's what I aspire to.

3:55

I hope it's heavy on the fun! [laughs]

3:58

I am Austin Coley. I'm a postdoctoral fellow in Dr.

4:02

Kay Tye's laboratory

4:02

at the Salk Institute.

4:04

I've been a postdoc for

4:04

about two and a half years.

4:08

And the purpose of my project is to

4:08

investigate the prefrontal cortex,

4:13

neuronal populations and circuits

4:13

that are involved in Anhedonia um, so

4:17

Anhedonia is the inability to experience

4:17

pleasure, and it's a core feature in major

4:22

depressive disorder and schizophrenia. And what I'm doing is I'm using in vivo

4:24

two photon calcium imaging techniques, as

4:29

well as behavioral analysis to detect the

4:29

neuronal populations that are affected

4:34

within this, uh, anhedonic condition.

4:38

And, um, I guess three words to

4:38

describe my mentoring philosophy.

4:44

I would say communication, um, I

4:44

would say creativity, as well as

4:50

I would say, also like hard work. [musical interlude]

4:54

How did each of

4:54

you approach establishing expectations

4:58

and shared goals, um, and would love

4:58

to hear about your current mentoring

5:02

relationship now, but perhaps also in

5:02

other types of mentoring relationships,

5:06

maybe noticing when you didn't set up,

5:06

um, certain expectations and shared

5:10

goals, how that sort of impacted the way

5:10

in which you were able to do your work.

5:15

Um, so I think this

5:15

is a really important topic.

5:17

And a lot of the times expectations

5:17

are assumed that you should

5:21

obviously know these expectations,

5:21

but we're not mind readers.

5:24

And so when I was a post-doc

5:24

and I had just gotten this job,

5:28

I had no space yet, no people. And I was like, okay, I

5:30

got to create the website. What is the content I'm

5:31

going to put on this website?

5:34

Because I don't have

5:34

anything to take pictures of.

5:36

So I, um, you know, obviously

5:36

you have some papers.

5:40

And then I wrote out a lab philosophy.

5:42

That was just, you know, random

5:42

musings as a postdoc of things I

5:46

thought about a lot as a trainee and,

5:46

you know, it's 10 years later and

5:51

the text is like minor, minor edits.

5:53

And so on the website, I have some

5:53

general expectations for lab members.

5:57

And so it really just serves to filter

5:57

out who would even apply, you know.

6:01

If anything I wrote turns you off then

6:01

you're probably just not even going to

6:04

apply, we don't even have to, you know,

6:04

there's no awkward conversations needed.

6:07

In the current state, after doing it

6:07

for a decade, the upfront expectations

6:11

and talking about everything

6:11

really early has worked for me.

6:15

And with Austin it's

6:15

been very transparent.

6:17

I met Austin at a meeting and,

6:17

it was very effortless, so...

6:20

Yeah. I think it was established very,

6:21

very early on when I was looking

6:24

into, to postdoc positions and,

6:24

uh, looking into Kay's lab.

6:30

During my PhD, I met Kay at a

6:30

optogenetics Gordon Research conference.

6:35

I actually, uh, immediately walked

6:35

up to her and told her, like my

6:40

sort of aspirations, goals, and,

6:40

um, and from there I told her my

6:44

projected timeline for not only

6:44

graduating with my PhD, but also even

6:49

afterwards, becoming a postdoc and even

6:49

transitioning into a faculty position.

6:54

So, we had these conversations

6:54

during the interview process.

6:59

And I wasn't having this communication

6:59

actually with the other PIs

7:02

that I was interviewing with. So this was what sort of, like, separated

7:04

Kay from a lot of the potential post-doc,

7:10

uh, places that I was looking at. So we had those initial expectations as

7:12

it relates to like career goals, but then

7:17

we started to discuss potential projects

7:17

that I could run within her laboratory.

7:22

And what was huge was, um, going

7:22

through the interview process

7:27

and proposing this potential

7:27

project that I was interested in.

7:32

And then she was also equally

7:32

interested in, um, and that

7:35

was established like during the

7:35

interview process, which was huge.

7:39

It was a major reason on why I wanted

7:39

to, to join her lab was we had similar

7:45

interests in this project proposal.

7:47

I didn't know that!

7:49

Yeah. Um, I think that if I didn't have

7:50

those conversations, like one, I

7:55

wouldn't know your mentoring style.

7:58

And two, I wouldn't know like what I was

7:58

capable of doing also at the next level.

8:03

So I had a different, uh, background.

8:06

For my PhD, it's a very heavy

8:06

molecular and synaptic background.

8:11

I did ex vivo electrophysiology

8:11

and, um, Kay has also ex vivo

8:17

uh, electrophysiology background. So she was able to like,

8:19

see both sides of it.

8:21

I can only see one side. Um, she actually, even before the

8:23

interview process, she was telling me

8:28

it's definitely a doable technique for

8:28

me to transition into doing in vivo work.

8:33

And she also informed me that it was

8:33

beneficial for my career in the end

8:38

anyway to like learn these new techniques.

8:41

So that was all talked about even

8:41

before the interview process which

8:47

was extremely helpful regardless

8:47

of how the interview went anyway.

8:50

[laughs] I was, I was like, oh, thanks,

8:50

thanks for telling me all this info, Kay!

8:55

[laughs]

8:56

Yeah. I think having shared goals and interests

8:56

expressed very early on helps develop

9:03

that relationship and allows there to

9:03

be trust to say, um, what it is that you

9:07

want and need out of this beyond just

9:07

the, I want to get a postdoc, I need a

9:13

postdoc to get a faculty position, or

9:13

I need a place to work [laughs] because

9:18

I need to be able to support myself. Um, but also knowing what, what you can

9:20

expect from someone in terms of their

9:25

philosophy or that they even like, even

9:25

hearing someone say they want to work with

9:30

you can really change how you approach

9:30

your next steps and career development.

9:36

I think one

9:36

of the keys is that there needs

9:39

to be a foundation built on both

9:39

mutual respect and trust and like

9:44

any type of relationship, that

9:44

foundation needs to be solid.

9:49

And a lot of these things that we'll

9:49

talk about today, I don't think are

9:54

achievable without that foundation.

9:58

And as a mentee, a few things that

9:58

are really important, and are related

10:02

to that, is this sense that you feel

10:02

valued by your mentor, and that your

10:09

opinions, your time is important, not

10:09

just to yourself, but also to the mentor.

10:15

And I think another piece that really

10:15

elevates a mentor in my eye is that they

10:22

have a vested interest in my training,

10:22

and in my, uh, development and in my

10:27

future career, whatever that, that may be.

10:30

So maybe I'll follow up by

10:30

saying like, you know, what are some ways

10:33

that you can formally actualize that?

10:37

It's helpful to have some of

10:37

these things down in writing.

10:40

Um, and so we have a lab manual that

10:40

everybody reads when they join the lab.

10:44

And it has some like very

10:44

general principles of like,

10:47

what are our lab values? Everybody has to treat each other

10:49

with kindness in every interaction,

10:53

no matter what career stage you're at. Um, and then I do have in the lab

10:55

manual our, uh, diversity equity

10:58

and inclusion policy practices.

11:01

I have an explicit statement in

11:01

there that says, this is a formal

11:05

and official part of our job to

11:05

make sure that our environment has

11:09

those really important features. So having that stuff in

11:11

writing is really important.

11:14

And then I also have sections that

11:14

say sort of what my expectations

11:18

are for what my job is in the lab,

11:18

providing funding, giving advice,

11:22

being available, that sort of thing. Um, and then what people at

11:24

different career stages, what I'm

11:28

expecting them to get out of the lab.

11:30

and I found it super helpful to look

11:30

at other people's similar lab manuals

11:35

or norms and policy statements.

11:37

'Cause sometimes I'm like, oh, that

11:37

was so well said and between me and my

11:41

colleagues, where , you could see a lot

11:41

of shared language [laughs] between our

11:44

lab manuals, because it really helps

11:44

you think about like what kind of lab

11:47

environment do you want to set up? Just what Matt was talking about.

11:50

But then there also has to be something

11:50

in writing individually, right?

11:53

'Cause I, I feel like it's not, um, so

11:53

much of a contract as much as when you

11:58

put something in writing, um, you can both

11:58

agree on the language in a way that's very

12:03

difficult to do with verbal communication.

12:06

So we have our annual

12:06

individual development plan.

12:09

And the way I like to do that is we

12:09

have a meeting that's dedicated towards

12:14

what are the person's career goals? Short-term development

12:16

goals, long-term goals.

12:19

And they'll fill out a whole

12:19

questionnaire beforehand and then

12:22

we'll go through it and I will type

12:22

what I think what they're saying about

12:27

what we should do for the next year. And then I like to have the person

12:29

look at what I've written and I'm

12:33

asking is what came out on paper

12:33

really what you're thinking too.

12:36

So I think paper, well, it's a Google

12:36

doc, but same thing [laughs], um, is

12:40

a really good way to make sure we have

12:40

a shared language and shared goals.

12:44

Um, and then that maybe, we had a really

12:44

great experience writing Matt's F32

12:50

fellowship last year that I think, um,

12:50

maybe he can talk about, about that.

12:55

Yes. So the F32 process, um, I was really

12:55

fortunate to work kind of hand in hand

13:02

with Avi with this, um, in the past,

13:02

I was fortunate enough to be funded

13:07

for a pre-doctoral F31 with my, uh,

13:07

graduate school mentor who was wonderful.

13:12

And now that, uh, I worked on my F32,

13:12

taking more of a, uh, leadership active

13:19

role, and also seeing how there, there

13:19

might be different styles, both, uh,

13:23

incredibly valuable, both incredibly

13:23

productive, but, but seeing that

13:27

there's no say, "right way" to write

13:27

a grant or different grant styles.

13:32

And so, um, with this F32, it allowed

13:32

us the ability to really outline what

13:38

activities I am really responsible

13:38

for during my postdoctoral fellowship,

13:44

and, uh, likewise what responsibilities

13:44

Avi has to me and also what are our

13:52

responsibilities for professional

13:52

development and making sure that I'm,

13:55

I'm giving clear presentations, I'm

13:55

able to kind of write clearly with

14:00

my manuscripts and then also what are

14:00

some of the, uh, mentoring or teaching

14:05

opportunities that I have to hopefully

14:05

pass down to a younger generation.

14:10

Yeah, I think that, um,

14:10

you know, that your experience with the

14:12

F32 really dovetails with a lot of what

14:12

we heard in Season Two, where we actually

14:18

went through and talk to applicants

14:18

about the different parts of the grant

14:21

application, where even just the act

14:21

of writing and putting the application

14:26

together really help them formalize

14:26

their relationships and their plans and

14:31

the expectations and all that stuff. So it's good to hear that echoed here too.

14:36

So in terms of like the nitty gritty,

14:36

um, how often do you two meet together?

14:44

Um, has that sort of changed over time?

14:47

What kinds of things do you

14:47

talk about in your meetings?

14:49

So I know, Avi, you had mentioned

14:49

an annual IDP review, but do you

14:55

review the goals and expectations

14:55

and, and your alignment, um, in

14:59

other ways, or at other times?

15:02

So I have a set meeting

15:02

time weekly with everybody in my

15:05

lab and it can be a long meeting.

15:07

It can be a short meeting. It's just kind of a, a check-in.

15:11

And what we do is we have like a living

15:11

Google doc that exists all the time.

15:18

And every time I'm thinking about

15:18

Matt and this project, I'll just

15:21

sort of jot that in the document. And when Matt has something to update on

15:23

or some question, he can jot it in there.

15:28

And sometimes we just communicate

15:28

back and forth through that Google

15:30

doc, and other times we'll use that

15:30

weekly meeting to kind of go through it.

15:35

Um, and the Google doc

15:35

is sort of continuous.

15:37

You just sort of add on

15:37

your new meeting to the top.

15:40

And I found that to be, uh, like a

15:40

super helpful mentoring tool to keep

15:46

open the lines of communication. And it's also searchable, which

15:47

is not true of conversations.

15:51

[laughs] Um, I started my lab 12 years

15:51

ago and I definitely tried all kinds

15:56

of different management tools, Gantt

15:56

charts, you name it, um, to try to keep

16:02

on top of people's, um, project so that

16:02

I can offer as much as, as possible.

16:07

And many of those things

16:07

like quickly dropped.

16:09

Nobody liked them. Um, but this particular strategy with

16:11

the weekly meetings in the Google

16:14

doc, as a way to keep open lines

16:14

of communication has been awesome.

16:19

Yes, Avi's very

16:19

responsive to the Google doc, uh,

16:23

sometimes I'll be putting data up and

16:23

I'm still kind of working through my

16:27

interpretations and [laughs] Avi will

16:27

already be, be kind of typing away.

16:31

So, I think with maybe some of these

16:31

other, say, mentoring techniques as a

16:37

mentee you feel that grinding of someone's

16:37

trying to mentor you and it just doesn't

16:41

feel as natural, um, as opposed to, say

16:41

we can have regular communications offline

16:49

with our Google doc, Avi's made it very

16:49

clear I can email her really at any time.

16:54

And as a mentee, I want to be

16:54

respectful of that so that I'm

16:57

not sending the panicked emails

16:57

every few minutes about something.

17:02

But that when we do meet it's

17:02

productive for both of us.

17:06

And, um, I don't know,

17:06

maybe this is a challenging question,

17:10

but were there any surprises or things

17:10

that you hadn't discussed that uh kind

17:15

of came up after you started working

17:15

together that you've had to work through?

17:20

There weren't

17:20

many challenges with Kay's

17:23

mentoring or any surprises.

17:26

I knew what I was getting

17:26

into before I went there.

17:30

There were challenges just during

17:30

like technical aspects of it because

17:33

of the, uh, the pandemic going on.

17:36

So I was sort of out of the lab for

17:36

a good amount of time, um, which was

17:40

challenging to learn this new technique,

17:40

that's not the best way to do it, but

17:45

that had nothing to do with mentoring.

17:47

And like, Kay, was completely different

17:47

opposite personality from myself, but even

17:55

though it was like completely opposite

17:55

it was very, very easy to communicate

17:59

with her with pretty much everything.

18:02

So science career-wise, it was like very,

18:02

very easy, transparent communications.

18:09

I think the thing that makes

18:09

Austin really easy to work with is

18:11

that he's very communicative and,

18:11

um, emotionally regulated and stable.

18:17

Like I've had a lot of trainees and sometimes there are surprises, I'll tell you.

18:20

There definitely have been surprises. And at this point, you know, I

18:22

used to really beat myself up when

18:27

something would go wrong with a

18:27

trainee and feel really horrible.

18:30

Like I failed, I'm like a bad person.

18:33

Like, you know, like I would just really

18:33

take it to heart at the beginning of

18:35

my, you know, when I was assistant

18:35

professor and then not that I don't

18:39

still take it to heart, but I sort of

18:39

just recognize, if you have X number

18:43

of people in your lab, there's going

18:43

to be X number of people that have this

18:47

problem and X number of people that have

18:47

this problem, like, it's just, you're

18:49

going to see all the problems that you

18:49

hear about like, you know, on occasion.

18:55

And it's never pleasant to have

18:55

to deal with any of those things.

18:58

And only recently, have I been able

18:58

to recognize that, um, to be a really

19:04

good mentor, sometimes I have to,

19:04

you know, tell people bad news.

19:10

And those are really difficult

19:10

conversations to have, or even just

19:12

something like, you know, "I'm not

19:12

gonna make you an offer for this

19:15

position" can be really challenging at

19:15

the beginning, but I think I've really

19:19

found this one, um, literature helpful,

19:19

which is called situational leadership.

19:24

Situational leadership really helps

19:24

me just to think about at every stage,

19:27

everyone's going to start out bright

19:27

eyed and bushy tailed and super excited.

19:30

And then everyone's going to get

19:30

bored and frustrated and their

19:33

desire to be able to do stuff, uh,

19:33

outpaces their ability to do stuff.

19:37

And then, you know, everybody's going

19:37

to go through that developmental

19:40

stage until they eventually reach

19:40

competence and like autonomy and

19:44

independence, and just feeling like

19:44

they have mastery over their craft.

19:47

And there's no shortcut for that. For me, I've definitely experienced

19:49

challenges and a lot of really fun

19:53

successes, mostly like really enjoyable

19:53

relationships, but definitely there have

19:57

been some challenges and sometimes those

19:57

challenges make the relationship better.

20:00

And sometimes those challenges help us

20:00

realize what we're supposed to be doing

20:03

in life might not be this, you know?

20:06

We have a later

20:06

episode in the season that sort of

20:08

talks about transitioning out of

20:08

a mentoring relationship, and you

20:12

know how to know when something's

20:12

salvageable versus when it's time to

20:17

sort of cut your losses and move on. So I think it's good to

20:18

foreshadow that, uh, conversation.

20:24

So one of the things we wanted to tackle

20:24

in sort of the second half of this episode

20:28

was a few common mentor- mentee challenges

20:28

or frictions that can happen and kind

20:37

of get your, your thoughts or your

20:37

advice on navigating these situations.

20:40

So I think first, just to set

20:40

the stage is how do each of you

20:45

really identify when there even

20:45

is a problem in the relationship?

20:49

Like, are there any, um, red

20:49

flags that you see from either

20:53

the mentor or the mentee side, if

20:53

like something's not right here.

20:56

We gotta, we got to work this out.

20:58

I think maybe that gets to,

20:58

um, Matt's point about being valued.

21:04

And I totally agree with him. That's the foundation of everything.

21:07

Every person in the lab is here

21:07

because they're valued and they have

21:11

something to bring to the table. And I think if people start feeling like

21:12

they're not valuing themselves, right?

21:20

So they're not meeting their own

21:20

expectations or that other people

21:23

aren't valuing them or respecting

21:23

them, um, then everything falls apart.

21:28

[laughs] So I think addressing

21:29

why you feel that way.

21:34

Is it something where your actions aren't

21:34

matching what your actual goals are?

21:40

Right. So I think that can be a very

21:40

common mismatch where the way you

21:44

spend your time isn't matching

21:44

sort of what you want to achieve.

21:49

Um, and then you can not be valuing

21:49

how you're spending your own time.

21:52

I certainly go through that as

21:52

a mid career faculty member.

21:56

[laughs] Um, and then the

21:56

issue of respect, right?

22:00

If someone is feeling disrespected, that

22:00

just needs to be addressed right away.

22:04

I mean, just in

22:04

terms of any relationship, I found that

22:07

if there is a problem kind of early

22:07

on, sitting on it for too long and

22:12

letting it build up, there's a lot of

22:12

stress and all of these interactions

22:18

are kind of funneled through that. And, and you just kind of take on more

22:19

and more of that stress and it really can

22:24

build so that it's clouding all of your,

22:24

kind of, day to day lab work productivity.

22:32

Um, but then I've found that when you

22:32

do have those moments where you're

22:37

talking to someone about the problem,

22:37

feeling that connection, that both

22:40

you understand the problem and they

22:40

understand the problem and you're both

22:44

working to solve it, it really is able

22:44

to lift that tightness and that feeling.

22:49

So, hopefully a mentee can identify

22:49

some of these problems earlier

22:54

and feels comfortable bringing

22:54

it to their mentor, again early.

22:57

And if that's not the case where they

22:57

feel comfortable bringing it to a

23:01

mentor, hopefully there are other social

23:01

supports, whether that's directly in

23:07

the lab, um, or other colleagues either

23:07

within that institution, department, or

23:12

outside it, which is another key part

23:12

is having a strong, scientific network,

23:20

which Avi's uh, encouraged and has been

23:20

a part of my professional development.

23:24

We've talked about quite a bit of

23:24

really having key mentors who are able

23:30

to provide various support, guidance,

23:30

insight that say, I need, and Avi may

23:38

not have the expertise in something. And I think having a mentor who's

23:40

very clear about where their strengths

23:44

are and where they, they may not have

23:44

that expertise in, and to seek that

23:49

expertise out is key in any mentor.

23:52

I think another thing to

23:52

think about is like, when things aren't

23:57

going swimmingly, which happens often

23:57

in a professional career in science,

24:03

um, just really taking some time

24:03

together to think about how much of

24:08

this is the normal struggle, right?

24:13

You know, if we start from the premise

24:13

that we're out here to answer questions

24:18

that nobody knows the answer to, and maybe

24:18

we don't even know exactly how to answer.

24:23

We're venturing into the unknown and

24:23

we know it's going to be hard, right?

24:28

And so when we have a particular

24:28

challenge, if we can sit down together and

24:33

agree that we've decided to do something

24:33

hard together, that goes a really long way

24:40

to helping the person not struggle alone.

24:43

But then on the other hand, if

24:43

you're trying to do something and

24:45

everybody around you is like, hmm

24:45

this seems like not a sensible risk.

24:51

I don't think that you're spending

24:51

your time in a way that you've told me

24:55

what outcomes you want to achieve, I

24:55

think you're not going to get there.

24:59

Then you sit down together and

24:59

you decide maybe this isn't the

25:03

best way to spend your time. So like, either being in the white

25:04

water rafting together versus

25:10

deciding together to pull the

25:10

boat into less dangerous waters.

25:15

So move away from the actual problem

25:15

you're tackling a little bit and

25:18

decide is that actually something

25:18

that we've agreed to work on together?

25:23

And I think many conflicts

25:23

can be resolved that way.

25:28

There are other things that

25:28

are sort of more interpersonal.

25:31

And those don't benefit from that kind

25:31

of solution, but what Matt said is

25:35

definitely the best way to address those.

25:38

Yeah. Can we talk a little bit more about

25:38

those interpersonal struggles of how

25:42

do you get around when maybe your

25:42

mentoring style is not matching up with,

25:45

um, what the mentee needs, perhaps,

25:45

maybe you're really hands-on because

25:50

you think they need help, but they feel

25:50

micromanaged or you think they've got

25:54

it all figured out and so you're very

25:54

hands-off and they feel like, "Ah!

25:57

You just let me out here to drown! You're my life vest, I need you."

26:01

Have either of you been

26:01

able to navigate that?

26:03

Um, whether it's with each other or

26:03

even perhaps, um, other folks in the

26:07

lab and how can you sort of address

26:07

some of those interpersonal conflicts,

26:12

if it seems like it can be resolved.

26:15

I think this gets to a

26:15

particular challenge in the way that

26:21

biomedical research academic environments

26:21

are set up where the mentor and mentee

26:29

are also often an employer and employee,

26:29

and also someone who's developing

26:37

their career, and their sponsor who

26:37

will help them in their future career.

26:41

So I think the answer to your question in

26:41

terms of those conflicts of independence

26:46

versus, um, micromanaging, all that

26:46

kind of thing, um, if we were just in a

26:52

pure mentor- mentee relationship, then

26:52

I might say, oh, if a person wants me

26:56

to be hands-off, I should absolutely

26:56

be hands-off and give the mentee

27:01

exactly what they need at all times.

27:03

But then at the same time, um, we're

27:03

a lab generously funded by NINDS to

27:09

hopefully push forward the frontiers

27:09

of knowledge and that's our goal as

27:13

well to do that in an efficient way.

27:15

And then on the other hand, my

27:15

mentees also might want to impress

27:21

me so that I sponsor them in the

27:21

future for their future careers.

27:25

And they might not be

27:25

willing to show weakness.

27:28

And so there, there are some tensions

27:28

between those different roles

27:31

that don't exist in other fields. In other fields, you would have a separate

27:33

person in each one of those roles.

27:37

And I think that, at the beginning

27:37

of the relationship, talking about

27:42

that and establishing sort of how

27:42

the mentor deals with those tensions

27:48

in roles, is really important.

27:51

Yeah, I think it

27:51

was really important when I first started

27:54

in Avi's lab as, you know, a new postdoc

27:54

you clearly want to impress upon your

28:01

mentor, that you care deeply about the

28:01

science, you love these questions, and

28:05

you're going to really tease them apart

28:05

in a high level, in a high quality.

28:11

I'm remembering one of my earliest

28:11

experiments were I was trying to get this,

28:16

this one type of stimulation to work.

28:19

And it just, it just wasn't working, and

28:19

it stretched on for maybe a few weeks

28:24

, and Avi and I had one of our meetings

28:24

and she was like, this probably took

28:27

longer than it needed to for us to make

28:27

this decision not to pursue it further.

28:32

And I thought, okay, this sets

28:32

the tone for how I'm going

28:37

to spend my time in the lab. And we can be nimble in determining

28:39

whether or not some of these projects

28:43

may be fruitful, may be productive, or

28:43

it's just not worth the amount of time,

28:48

which as a postdoc, is in short supply.

28:51

So now in the future, if I'm starting

28:51

to have those same feelings, if it

28:55

feels like I'm going down that same

28:55

road, maybe have this discussion with

28:58

Avi, that it isn't probably the best

28:58

use of my time, or there are other

29:03

projects that are a higher priority.

29:05

I think that I've

29:05

done something in the past

29:08

that has been helpful to me. So I probably people have heard about

29:09

these different quadrants of management

29:15

or mentorship where, you know, one

29:15

axis is how directive you are and

29:20

another axis is how supportive you are.

29:22

And so you can be very supportive and

29:22

not very directive, and then you're

29:25

just kind of leaving someone to their

29:25

own devices, but supporting them.

29:29

You can be very directive and very

29:29

unsupportive and that's, you know,

29:33

the shame management strategy.

29:36

And there are certain quadrants

29:36

that I personally would never go to.

29:41

[laughs] Um, I couldn't

29:41

based on my personality.

29:44

And I also think some of

29:44

those quadrants are wrong.

29:47

So like very directive and

29:47

very unsupportive or very

29:50

unsupportive and very undirective. So those I wouldn't go to, but I'm

29:52

willing to move around in those quadrants.

29:57

And I've had experiences where, like I had

29:57

an idea for something I wanted to say to

30:02

a mentee, but I actually asked, I drew the

30:02

little graph and I said, is it okay if I

30:06

go here, I see an opportunity to go here

30:06

and I would listen if the mentee said, no,

30:11

I want to make my own choice here, or, um,

30:11

I want to hear some tough words, right?

30:16

I'm willing to, to go there with

30:16

the permission of my mentee.

30:19

Yeah. And communication has been such a

30:20

theme throughout this whole podcast.

30:23

So, you know, that's just another

30:23

great, uh, theme to be highlighting.

30:28

I think, Kay, you talk a little bit about situational leadership, but what

30:29

does that actually look like?

30:32

Like how do you go about trying to figure

30:32

out, do I need to be more hands-on?

30:37

Do I need to be less hands-on? Anything like, like that.

30:40

So, yeah, I mean, wow,

30:40

it's a really good question.

30:44

And I, as you're asking me this question,

30:44

I'm just like, literally my mind is

30:47

just going through the archives of like

30:47

every situation and like, what did I do?

30:51

And was it a good decision? Should I have done that or not? And what ends up being a breaking point

30:53

for me when I decide like, okay, I

30:59

got to drop the hammer, so to speak? A lot of the decision-making I

31:01

do for both hiring and firing

31:04

is very transparent in the lab. I run my lab and it's sort of evolved.

31:08

It's its own little culture. Um, but you know, everyone who comes into

31:09

the lab, we need to vote unanimously.

31:14

We have a discussion. Everybody has a veto power and you

31:15

know, there's different grades of

31:17

enthusiasm, but everybody has veto

31:17

power and we need to unanimously

31:21

decide to give someone an offer. And I think that has been a really

31:23

effective process for me for filtering

31:29

and understanding their problems. It's always harder when it emerges

31:30

when someone's already in the lab, they

31:34

already are friends with a lot of people. And, you know, they've made a lot of

31:35

contributions for which I'm grateful.

31:39

Um, so I think those

31:39

challenges have been trickier.

31:42

And I think for me, the line is if someone

31:42

is not doing well in the lab, it doesn't

31:45

necessarily mean that they couldn't

31:45

begin to do well in the lab later.

31:49

However, if someone is not doing well in

31:49

the lab and they are harming or making a

31:53

toxic environment or making other people

31:53

feel uncomfortable or otherwise burdening

31:58

other people in a way that is not relevant

31:58

to any professional responsibilities.

32:03

I need to do something. And it's irresponsible for me to not act.

32:06

So, as soon as that becomes

32:06

apparent, I act pretty swiftly.

32:10

What do you think, Austin?

32:12

Um, I definitely do

32:12

empathize with like the things that you

32:16

have to deal with, um, because I don't

32:16

think they're easy decisions to make.

32:21

I feel like as a mentee, we have to

32:21

be more conscious of and to like,

32:27

try to put ourselves in your position

32:27

the best way we can to just like,

32:33

see like, all right, your job is not

32:33

easy, managing all these different

32:37

personalities at different career

32:37

stages, I mean, that's like a tough task.

32:42

So yeah, I don't know where

32:42

you are coming from because

32:45

I'm not in your position.

32:46

Yeah. You know, I appreciate that very much.

32:48

I think that if you're ever

32:48

curious, you should ask.

32:52

In the anonymous lab survey that we

32:52

recently did, a lot of people complain

32:56

there's too many meetings and like,

32:56

there's like too much discussing

33:00

all these like transparency things. And then some people love it.

33:02

They're like, this is super useful. This is like going to

33:03

teach me how to run my lab. Like all this stuff is

33:05

like behind the curtain.

33:08

Like this is basically going to be my job. And I just never thought about it before.

33:11

So it's mixed bag. Some people like it,

33:12

some people dislike it.

33:14

Oh. Will you talk more

33:14

about this, this survey?

33:16

Like is this something you've done

33:16

regularly or sort of a new thing and

33:21

what kinds of questions do you ask?

33:24

Yeah. So I, um, originally did my

33:25

very first anonymous lab survey.

33:28

That was at, I dunno, maybe five or six

33:28

years ago, but as Aruta and then Leslie

33:34

Vosshall popularized this anonymous

33:34

lab survey, this just is a Google form.

33:38

And so we kind of use that

33:38

template and added a lot more

33:41

stuff so it's pretty extensive. People say a lot and give me a lot

33:43

of perspective about how they're

33:47

feeling that like, I definitely

33:47

wasn't aware of all of it, you know?

33:50

And then have a lab meeting to

33:50

discuss issues and give people

33:52

a chance to air things and also

33:52

I'm just responding to everyone.

33:56

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that might be a little bit

33:56

burdensome for my lab and it's been a

34:00

burst of a lot of this type of thing. But on the plus side, the majority of

34:02

the lab feels empowered to say what

34:07

they really think and feels that, you

34:07

know, they're able to say what they

34:11

think that their voice will be heard. So I guess that's the plus side.

34:14

I don't know. Austin you tell me what he thinks? If it's too much, it's a lot.

34:17

[laughs]

34:18

Yeah. Uh, I mean, I'm actually not a

34:18

fan of the anonymous feedback.

34:23

I am a fan of feedback, um, and

34:23

prefer, you know, one-on-one feedback.

34:29

I typically can handle critical

34:29

feedback, so, I'm like not averse to it.

34:36

Um, but I also understand, like from

34:36

the other side that people are not sort

34:42

of comfortable saying things to other

34:42

people's faces in a one-on-one meeting.

34:48

It's just like not my particular

34:48

style that I would want.

34:53

It is hard to receive

34:53

anonymous feedback when it's

34:57

everyone giving you feedback at once.

34:59

Yeah.

34:59

But I will say that, you know,

34:59

like in, in our survey, Austin knows

35:04

like, you know, I could see how a lot

35:04

of people would feel uncomfortable

35:08

saying, Kay, you talk too much. You need to talk less.

35:10

Can you please [laughs] stop talking

35:10

so that other people can talk.

35:13

Yeah, but I hear you, Austin. I mean, I've had to give

35:15

the anonymous feedback.

35:17

And sometimes I feel like the things

35:17

that I have to say feel, they feel

35:22

almost harsher when they're anonymous

35:22

than if I came to a person and was

35:27

like, Hey, like here's my personal

35:27

feedback and take it or leave it um,

35:33

and here's the context around it. But I also, you know, obviously like

35:35

the flip side of the power dynamics

35:39

and the not everyone feels comfortable

35:39

giving that kind of feedback.

35:42

Yeah. It definitely cuts both ways.

35:44

Yeah.

35:45

One point to make that we

35:45

didn't really touch on yet, is that,

35:49

when you're mentoring in this sort of

35:49

responsive and flexible way, one thing

35:54

to be on the lookout for is burnout.

35:58

Uh, and I think that's one of my main

35:58

jobs as, as a mentor is to sort of,

36:05

um, sense and respond to when people

36:05

have entered into a time in their

36:13

weeks or their months or their years

36:13

where there's too much on their plates.

36:18

And it's ending up having

36:18

a negative feedback.

36:22

And so I personally try to talk to

36:22

people about that and obviously to set

36:28

a tone in the lab where, um, people

36:28

learn how to sense that for themselves,

36:32

if they don't already know how. And then, you know, take things

36:34

off their plate, take a vacation.

36:38

In the long-term, it's much more

36:38

important to reduce sometimes.

36:42

Um, and it's not going to make a

36:42

difference in terms of long-term

36:45

productivity or reaching your goals. Or it is going to make a

36:47

difference, but a positive one. [laughs]

36:50

Absolutely. Emotional intelligence is not

36:50

something we discuss or even promote

36:55

a lot of times in the sciences. And it's almost as if it's

36:57

combating, you know, this idea of

37:01

being reasonable and logical is

37:01

if those two things can't coexist.

37:05

And so I think that's a really great

37:05

point to, to mention is being able to

37:08

recognize it in yourself as the mentor,

37:08

because you probably need a break too.

37:12

But especially in your trainees, because

37:12

sometimes they won't ask for help.

37:15

They'll just be dangling out there

37:15

thinking that it's normal, it's normal

37:18

to feel this way because getting a PhD is

37:18

hard or, or, you know, being on the job

37:24

market to get a faculty position is hard. Yeah, I think having that mental

37:26

wellness really is important.

37:29

Yeah. And I think that point about, um, that

37:29

this will be better in the long run.

37:34

I think sometimes trainees, they

37:34

might feel shame that they can't

37:38

get it all done or feel like,

37:38

"no, I can do it, I can do it."

37:42

And it's like, you don't have to,

37:42

[laughs] you don't have to do it.

37:46

You don't have to push yourself in this way. Like it's, it's going to

37:47

be better in the long run.

37:50

It's a really good message.

37:51

And as a mentor, I

37:51

can really help like redistribute

37:55

load, um, in addition to

37:55

encouraging people to take breaks.

37:59

And to Avi's

37:59

point, I think of a mentor as a role

38:02

model, not just for, uh, scientific

38:02

reasons, but as uh lab management.

38:09

And, uh, I remember there was one time

38:09

during kind of the peak of the pandemic

38:15

where I think we all were experiencing

38:15

burnout and Avi did something very, I

38:20

think simple for her as a mentor, of just

38:20

saying, this week we don't need to have

38:25

our one-on-one meetings, but you know,

38:25

I've got a lot of things on my plate.

38:31

I'm sure you will have a lot of things

38:31

on your plate and by Avi doing that

38:35

very simple thing of just saying we

38:35

don't need to meet, it made it okay

38:40

for all of us to then say something

38:40

like that as well to one another.

38:44

And that it wasn't as though, well,

38:44

Avi's doing all of these things and I

38:48

need to do all of these things, too.

38:52

It gave us that permission.

38:54

Well, we all need to be kind to each other, but we also need to be kind to ourselves.

38:57

[laughs] [musical interlude]

39:02

Can I ask

39:02

each of you for one last piece of

39:04

parting advice for our audience?

39:07

I think I would say that the

39:07

interpersonal relationships that you

39:12

develop in a research environment are,

39:12

um, as important to your satisfaction in

39:19

this career as your scientific results.

39:22

And so you have to do them as you do

39:22

for your scientific work, you have to

39:26

conduct your interpersonal relationships

39:26

in a way that matches your values.

39:31

And that makes you feel

39:31

satisfied and good.

39:34

So if you find yourself doing

39:34

something that goes against that in

39:37

your interpersonal relationships,

39:37

to try to, you know, do some more

39:42

science or something, it's not going

39:42

to make you happy in the long run.

39:46

So really working on those interpersonal

39:46

relationships, particularly the

39:49

mentor- mentee relationship, I

39:49

think it's really important for

39:52

long-term satisfaction in this career.

39:54

I guess I'd say

39:54

that being in science, we're fortunate

39:56

to have a lot of incredible mentors.

39:59

And that there isn't necessarily one

39:59

or a few mentors that one needs for

40:06

particular area of, of science that you

40:06

can find really good mentors all over.

40:12

Uh, whether that's your particular,

40:12

say, PI that you're working with,

40:17

your colleagues, whether they're a

40:17

post-doctoral fellows, senior scientists,

40:22

graduate students, or undergraduate

40:22

students who will more than likely

40:25

change the world in incredible ways in

40:25

the future, and you'll look up to them.

40:30

And I guess I'd also say we're incredibly

40:30

fortunate to be in these positions

40:34

to ask questions, work on science,

40:34

and I guess we're all responsible for

40:40

one another and building each other

40:40

up when that's necessary and being

40:45

critical when it's necessary as well,

40:45

but that, uh, as scientists, we're

40:51

all part of this larger group that,

40:51

that needs to support one another.

40:54

Yeah. So I think as it relates to advice,

40:55

if you're looking for a mentor, start

40:59

to, one, look early and, two, I would

40:59

see what this mentor can do for you

41:08

as it relates to, like, your career. I think you should have these

41:10

conversations, um, very, very early on.

41:15

Candid conversations. And so you're not like running

41:17

into any surprises, during your

41:22

PhD or your post-doc . So I think

41:22

my advice is have those candid

41:28

talks, and be as honest as you can.

41:33

I understand this could be a little

41:33

bit fearful, um, especially if you're

41:38

talking to, um, a famous PI then you

41:38

probably like, want to put up a front,

41:45

but that's probably not the best.

41:47

It's not going to help you

41:47

out in the end, anyway.

41:49

So, um, have those conversations and then

41:49

yeah, start to like figure, figure it out.

41:56

I think that's really good advice. Um, I think my advice is to integrate

41:58

over your emotional response to a

42:06

complicated situation over time.

42:08

So I think that a lot of times we're

42:08

just like making, you know, trying to

42:12

make decisions about, um, you know,

42:12

choosing a mentor or what to do.

42:17

And I think a lot of the times,

42:17

actually, your emotional abstraction

42:22

of the whole situation is taking into

42:22

account many different inputs that you

42:26

are weighting in and then, you know,

42:26

you're coming up with an amalgam.

42:30

And so if you can't necessarily

42:30

articulate what the problem is, but

42:34

you just have a, not a great feeling. I would say, trust that feeling and like,

42:36

you know, try to investigate more before

42:40

you make a final decision, but this is

42:40

effectively your chosen science family.

42:45

And so it is a very important decision

42:45

and both when things are really good

42:49

and when things are really bad, I

42:49

think trust that, trust that feeling.

42:53

If you feel drawn to someone, you really want to talk to them, you want to work with them.

42:56

Like you should do that, you know? And don't hold back.

42:59

I think Austin's point is really good. When you are trying to find a mentor

43:01

and, um, you know, presenting yourself

43:06

to a mentor or mentee just to present

43:06

yourself authentically, because so

43:11

much of the success of a mentor-

43:11

mentee relationship comes down to fit.

43:15

And if you are presenting and trying

43:15

to be someone else that you're not

43:18

like to impress someone, which everyone

43:18

kind of does, but like, if you can make

43:22

the version of yourself as close to

43:22

that actual reality as possible, that

43:26

would be most helpful for, you know,

43:26

knowing if it's going to be a good fit.

43:31

Um, so I think that's, that's

43:31

kind of obvious, but yet

43:35

everybody sort of does it.

43:37

So no

43:37

mentoring cat fishing going on.

43:40

[laughs]

43:41

Right.

43:42

I like that advice. That's good advice.

43:44

All right, Lauren, what's your advice?

43:47

I think I want to return

43:47

to the theme of communication, because

43:52

I-I- really, like as Avi was saying like,

43:52

we really are, in academia, navigating

43:56

a lot of, um, sometimes conflicting

43:56

roles where you're a student and you're

44:02

a researcher and you're, you know, an

44:02

employee and a mentee and it's really

44:09

hard to do that or to have any of these

44:09

relationships without communication.

44:13

And I think the advice part of

44:13

that is that it's never too late.

44:17

Even if you think you, you know, maybe

44:17

you started off on the wrong foot

44:20

with someone or you feel like things

44:20

are kind of veering off, or I haven't

44:25

ever brought this up before, so how

44:25

do I even start the conversation?

44:30

Um, I think people are more open

44:30

to these kinds of conversations.

44:35

They might not even know that you want

44:35

to talk about this thing or they feel

44:40

like they're, you know, they don't

44:40

know how to have the conversation

44:43

either, even if they're the mentor. So, um, bringing in your support

44:44

community, figuring out the best

44:49

way to broach the subject and then

44:49

just floating some test balloons I

44:53

think is a great way to start there.

44:55

And then on the mentor

44:55

side, it's the same, right?

44:58

Like, you can still start having these

44:58

conversations or set up the lab, um,

45:02

expectations, the lab book now, and

45:02

you can work on it and develop it as

45:07

a lab and make it a group exercise. And so never too late to open

45:09

the lines of communication.

45:13

What about you, Marguerite?

45:14

I think I'm going

45:14

to sort of combine everything that has

45:17

been said, even just recently, um, I love

45:17

this idea Avi specifically you mentioning

45:23

about incorporating the lab in various

45:23

ways, both in terms of your shared values,

45:29

shared expectations, um, and everyone

45:29

investing in what's happening in the lab.

45:34

I think so often we look to one

45:34

person who is called our mentor to do

45:40

everything, uh, to be the best mentor

45:40

ever and have all of the expertise,

45:45

the emotional intelligence, the ability

45:45

to read minds and all of the things.

45:50

And sometimes, you may not get

45:50

everything from that person.

45:53

I don't even think the expectation

45:53

should be to have that, but when you

45:56

have other people around, other people

45:56

to lean on in the lab, being able to say,

46:00

Hey, I'm really struggling with this.

46:03

And I don't know how to tell Avi. I don't know how to tell my mentor

46:04

that I'm having this problem, can

46:07

you kind of help me, you know, figure

46:07

out the best way to approach this?

46:11

Or I'm really struggling in

46:11

maintaining my, um, work-life balance.

46:15

And I think creating a lab

46:15

environment is so important where

46:19

everyone can help each other.

46:21

So yeah, so I really like the idea of

46:21

having an environment where everyone is

46:26

mentoring each other or providing, um, the

46:26

support that is needed to get work done,

46:33

but also to be well and to be a whole

46:33

human being, since those are people you

46:38

probably spend most of your time with,

46:38

[laughs] um, you probably don't even spend

46:42

as much time in your own house in solitude

46:42

as you do with your lab mates, so..

46:45

[outro music]

46:49

That's all we have time

46:49

for today on Building Up the Nerve.

46:52

And this season, we're ending every

46:52

episode with a reflection question.

46:56

So this episode we invite you

46:56

to reflect on, what are the most

47:00

important expectations for you to

47:00

set in your mentoring relationships

47:03

and how do you go about doing that? Thank you to our guests this week

47:06

for sharing their expertise and thank

47:09

you to NINDS program director, Dr.

47:11

Bob Riddle, who composed

47:11

our theme song and music.

47:14

We'll see you next time for episode

47:14

four, where we discuss developing

47:17

an adaptive mentoring style.

47:20

You can find

47:20

past episodes of this podcast and

47:23

many more grant application resources

47:23

on the web at NINDS.NIH.Gov.

47:30

Be sure to follow us on Twitter

47:30

@NINDSDiversity and @NINDSFunding.

47:36

You can email us with questions

47:36

at [email protected].

47:43

Make sure you subscribe to the podcast

47:43

on Apple Podcast or your favorite

47:47

podcast app so you don't miss an episode.

47:50

We'll see you next time.