0:00

[intro music] Welcome

0:00

to Season Three of the National

0:04

Institute of Neurological Disorders

0:04

and Stroke's Building Up The Nerve

0:08

where we help you strengthen your

0:08

mentoring relationships with tools and

0:11

advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can

0:14

be daunting, but we're here to help.

0:17

It's our job. [music fades]

0:21

Hello, I'm Marguerite

0:21

Matthews, a program director at NINDS.

0:26

And I'm Lauren Ullrich,

0:26

also a program director at NINDS.

0:29

And we're your hosts today.

0:31

This episode,

0:31

we will focus on moving from being a

0:33

mentee, to being a mentor, developing

0:33

your mentoring philosophy, co-mentoring,

0:39

and culturally aware mentorship. [musical interlude]

0:46

Our guests today are Dr. Ruben Dagda, Kathryn Graves,

0:47

and Jasmine Quynh Le.

0:52

So let's get started with our introductions.

0:55

Hi. Yes, I'm so grateful to be here.

0:58

My name is Dr. Ruben Dagda and I'm an

0:59

associate professor.

1:02

I'm at the University of Nevada

1:02

Reno, Department of Pharmacology.

1:06

Right now, um, I'm currently

1:06

investigating, uh, the molecular

1:11

mechanisms by which neurons in the

1:11

midbrain, which are affected by

1:15

Parkinson's disease, degenerate,

1:15

uh, specifically I'm looking at how

1:20

mitochondria, the organelles that generate

1:20

ATP and energy are dysfunctional during

1:26

Parkinson's models and what we can do

1:26

to ameliorate and reverse, uh, the loss

1:32

of energy and mitochondrial dysfunction.

1:36

So another angle of my research is

1:36

looking at the therapeutic translational

1:39

aspects to reverse, uh, Parkinson's

1:39

pathology using animal models.

1:45

And also I'm doing a little bit of

1:45

research into Alzheimer's disease,

1:48

trying to break into that field as

1:48

well, because a lot of the pathologies

1:52

common between the two diseases, uh,

1:52

including mitochondrial dysfunction.

1:57

And three words that describe

1:57

my mentoring philosophy style.

2:01

I was thinking about this very

2:01

hard, and it is flexibility,

2:05

customize, and open minded.

2:08

Hi, thank

2:08

you so much for having me.

2:10

My name is Kathryn Graves. I do go by Kat and I'm currently a fourth

2:12

year graduate student in the Psychology

2:16

Department here at Yale University. And largely I'm interested in the

2:18

ways in which people, human learners

2:22

learn and extract structure from their

2:22

environments as they navigate so as we

2:26

move around space, um, and also the neural

2:26

mechanisms that support these processes.

2:30

So in other words, uh, I basically

2:30

have people run around both in virtual

2:34

environments and actually in the real

2:34

world as well, while we record from their

2:37

brains and also observe their behavior. More specifically using a combination

2:39

of behavioral, computational, and

2:43

intracranial EEG, uh, to investigate

2:43

this sort of complex capacity or

2:48

ability that is, uh, human navigation.

2:50

And three words to describe my mentoring

2:50

style, I would say "challenge by choice,"

2:56

and so I think I really encourage

2:56

my mentees to, um, push themselves

3:01

to learn new things, but also know

3:01

that I'm always there for support.

3:05

Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

3:07

My name is Jasmine Quynh Le. I'm a fifth year PhD candidate in

3:09

Neuroscience at Brandeis University,

3:14

and I am interested in circadian

3:14

rhythms and sleep, which are

3:17

conserved in almost all animals. And my work is centered around

3:19

studying the interactions

3:22

between these two processes. Using the humble fruit fly as a

3:24

model organism, I am looking at how

3:28

circadian neurons, wake neurons,

3:28

and sleep neurons change how they

3:31

communicate with each other in

3:31

moments of increased sleep pressure.

3:34

In other words, I'm asking how do

3:34

our brains override our circadian

3:38

tendency to wake up in the morning

3:38

after a night of staying up.

3:42

And so I'm doing this by looking at

3:42

messenger RNAs and how they change

3:47

with increasing pressure and what

3:47

happens when they artificially

3:50

manipulate expression levels of these

3:50

molecules at a neuron- specific level.

3:55

And, um, I think similarly to

3:55

everyone else here, three words

4:00

that describe my mentoring style

4:00

are honesty, kindness, and evolving.

4:05

[musical interlude]

4:09

All right. So let's get started on our questions.

4:13

Can you all tell us how you

4:13

developed your mentoring philosophy?

4:17

It can be formal or informal.

4:20

Did you write it down? Um, just let us know, like, how

4:21

you came up with it and how do you

4:25

communicate it to your mentees?

4:28

I must confess that I did

4:28

not think about my mentoring philosophy

4:33

when I started mentoring graduate

4:33

students at the University of Iowa.

4:37

I think, um, my colleagues here can

4:37

relate to this, it's based on emulating

4:43

your, uh, bad and good experiences.

4:45

And I was in charge of, uh,

4:45

doing peer to peer mentoring, uh,

4:49

rotating with graduate students. And no one really taught me.

4:52

And, uh, it was more like, you

4:52

know, here you have this assignment.

4:56

Help him, you're the one with the

4:56

most experience in the lab, well

4:58

go teach this person techniques. And I did.

5:01

And, I think it's just mostly based

5:01

on my personality, uh, with peer-peer

5:06

mentoring it's usually, you know,

5:06

kindness, um, understanding and being

5:11

patient, and at the same time, being able

5:11

to give positive and negative feedback.

5:16

And be able to pivot if something's

5:16

wrong, kind of change the strategy.

5:20

And so my main philosophy is really

5:20

that this is a learning experience.

5:24

I'm here to teach and I'm here to learn.

5:27

And as I actually moved up the ladder

5:27

in my career, again, there wasn't a

5:31

specific workshop of how to develop

5:31

my mentoring style, uh, but it was

5:35

more Emily, my post-doctoral advisor.

5:38

And, you know, being able to learn

5:38

from the good and the bad experiences.

5:42

But as I actually moved to University

5:42

of Nevada Reno in 2013, I did take

5:47

a few workshops and, you know, some

5:47

training at the NIH, and I've been

5:53

customizing my mentoring philosophy

5:53

using the Fink model, uh, F I N K, uh,

5:59

just-in-time mentoring, and developing

5:59

an institutional development plan with

6:04

my graduate students and still having

6:04

a flexibility and open door policy.

6:09

So this kind of evolved, uh, because

6:09

this wasn't something that was trained

6:13

for, [chuckles] but it was more kind

6:13

of a hit and miss as we went along.

6:17

You know, we should be able

6:17

to mentor giving both positive

6:20

and negative feedback. And when we give the negative feedback,

6:21

I'll always try to say something positive

6:25

before I move on to the negative. And the idea of a negative is, in a way,

6:27

it's gotta be constructive, intentional,

6:32

and direct and being able to follow up.

6:35

And I emphasize customized 'cause everyone

6:35

has different experiences and needs.

6:39

And so that's something that

6:39

I tend to overlook in the

6:41

past, but learn a lot from. So this wasn't something I wrote

6:44

down, but this is something

6:47

that evolved through experience.

6:49

Um, and if I might,

6:49

I'll just maybe add onto that as someone

6:52

who's still kind of a trainee and sort

6:52

of still learning how to mentor, I

6:57

think the way that I've sort of, um,

6:57

adapted my strategy as I've gone from

7:01

being an RA to being a graduate student,

7:01

is adding elements of sort of formal

7:07

mentoring, um, as I've sort of learned

7:07

more and become established in the field.

7:11

So when I started, my first

7:11

sort of mentoring experience was

7:14

actually as a research assistant,

7:14

a post-graduate research assistant

7:17

at the University of Pennsylvania. And there I was mentoring undergrads,

7:19

but I was still very much in a space of,

7:23

I still have a lot to learn, so we still

7:23

have a lot to learn, so let's kind of

7:27

tackle these issues together and, you

7:27

know, sit and debug together and, you

7:31

know, share the sense of motivation. And I think, you know, now as a graduate

7:33

student, especially as a fourth year

7:36

graduate student, I think elements of

7:36

formality, like having documents that

7:40

are a strict sort of set of expectations

7:40

and roles, um, is something that I

7:45

have for like each of my mentees. And at the same time, I kind of try

7:47

to, you know, provide the other side of

7:51

that, which is making myself available

7:51

for questions, trying my best to

7:55

communicate that I am also still learning. So not trying to, you know, minimize any

7:57

space for my mentees to come and say that

8:01

they don't understand something, that

8:01

they're confused, or that they're having

8:03

a hard time, um, or that they just need

8:03

to sit in like debug their code with me.

8:08

So I think, um, I still try to maintain

8:08

a mix of sort of formal expectations

8:12

with them understanding that I'm

8:12

also a human who is still learning.

8:16

I think there's like a balance there

8:16

that I'm still working on again, as

8:19

someone who is still trainee status,

8:19

but I think is something that, um, has

8:23

kind of generated into this philosophy

8:23

that is, you know, understanding that

8:27

all of this is a learning process

8:27

and that I just want to help younger

8:30

trainees along in that process as

8:30

well, while I'm still on it myself.

8:34

And I think

8:34

you'll always be in that position, Kat.

8:37

We should not ever stop learning or

8:37

figuring out how to be better mentors.

8:42

We may start mentoring different

8:42

people that have different needs that

8:44

we've never had to deal with before. And even talking with my grad advisor,

8:46

who I trained with way back in the day.

8:51

Um, she's been a full professor for

8:51

a long time and she continues to tell

8:55

me about things that she's learning

8:55

and how to better serve her trainees.

8:59

So I think it's an important

8:59

thing to recognize, but also

9:02

know that it's not unique to you.

9:04

There's still folks, unfortunately,

9:04

many folks who've been mentoring a

9:07

long time and have not learned to adapt

9:07

or to customize or to be flexible.

9:11

So I think that's a really

9:11

great, um, observation.

9:14

Primarily, I just really

9:14

agree with everything that has been said.

9:19

Um, in particular, I think that it really

9:19

is a learning experience and you only

9:25

become a better mentor the more you do it.

9:27

So I've been very lucky to have had formal

9:27

mentorships, uh, since high school and

9:33

being able to evolve from what works and

9:33

what doesn't work from those experiences.

9:39

And, similar to Kat, I've gained a

9:39

formal process in how I mentor, although

9:45

I will also say that, uh, I like

9:45

setting expectations from my mentees

9:50

and also having my expectations, but

9:50

importantly also making them flexible

9:55

and letting those evolve as time goes on.

9:58

So, what was the most, or

9:58

continues to be the most, difficult for

10:03

you in the process of becoming a mentor?

10:06

Is there something in particular

10:06

that you feel like you struggled

10:09

with in the past or continue to?

10:12

In my grad career right

10:12

now, I am mentoring a lot of undergrads.

10:16

I will say I am working with, um,

10:16

at least a dozen students right now

10:22

in science and outside of science.

10:25

I've been very fortunate to

10:25

be a part of, uh, the Posse

10:28

Foundation, being a mentor for them. And the biggest difficulty for

10:31

me has been adjusting mentoring

10:35

styles for each individual person. And letting go of expectations and

10:37

not letting expectations between

10:42

people transfer over to others.

10:45

And so I might be wondering, you know,

10:45

why is this mentee not responding

10:51

the way I thought they would? Just being okay with that,

10:53

and then adjusting with that.

10:56

I want to chime in

10:56

about that and I completely agree.

10:59

Um, but at my career stage, I have to

10:59

deal with mentoring multiple undergraduate

11:06

students, graduate students, postdocs,

11:06

and even one research faculty.

11:10

And so, giving them the necessary

11:10

attention to multiple mentees,

11:16

uh, with our busy schedules as

11:16

scientists, you know, whether

11:20

you're taking classes or teaching.

11:23

It's just challenging, when you have,

11:23

you know, more than three mentees.

11:26

And just trying to cut a slice of

11:26

the pie and give them the amount of

11:31

attention they need and follow up with

11:31

the expectations can be challenging.

11:35

So I always try to itemize the

11:35

major goals for each one of them.

11:40

Having a list of tasks. It sounds, in a way, straight forward,

11:42

but it helps me put myself on equal

11:46

footing with everyone to follow up and,

11:46

I want to make sure I don't give more

11:50

attention to one mentee as, you know, that

11:50

could be perceived by others that I, you

11:55

know, have a favorite mentee or [laughs]

11:55

that I've given the most attention.

11:59

And, you know, I just want to

11:59

spread my attention equally across.

12:02

And being able to confront the mentee

12:02

in a positive way when they're not,

12:07

you know, doing what they're supposed

12:07

to and being able to deliver negative

12:12

feedback in a way that they can

12:12

actually evolve and be more productive.

12:16

And if they get stagnant in a way,

12:16

I guess, career-wise then being able

12:22

to help them in a way that doesn't

12:22

seem too negative or confrontational.

12:27

So that's the kind of striking the

12:27

balance of, you know, how to deliver

12:30

this and at the same time, encourage

12:30

them without discouraging them.

12:33

That's been my challenge, and

12:33

sometimes it's not the most

12:36

comfortable experience for any one

12:36

of us, but we know we gotta do it.

12:41

[chuckles]

12:41

It does

12:41

sometimes feel like trial by fire.

12:45

[laughs] Yeah,

12:45

because you're like, I don't want

12:48

to ruin someone's hopes and dreams,

12:48

but I also need you to, to hold

12:52

up your end of the bargain and to

12:52

meet some of these expectations.

12:56

Yeah. It's always a tricky balance.

12:58

Yeah. I just want to absolutely, um,

12:59

co-sign on everything that Ruben just

13:02

said, as far as necessary possible

13:02

confrontations with students or

13:08

addressing issues as they arise. I think there's this feeling

13:09

of not wanting to come off

13:12

as bossy or overbearing. I think, especially as like a woman

13:14

in science, there's this identity

13:17

that you feel like you should avoid,

13:17

um, of being bossy in any situation.

13:21

But at the same time, especially when

13:21

working with very new trainees, it can

13:25

be sometimes hard to communicate that

13:25

there are stakes to the science that

13:29

you're doing when you sort of break out

13:29

of classroom and into real world science,

13:32

there are stakes that maybe the students

13:32

don't fully understand or appreciate.

13:36

Um, and so the specific things that

13:36

I think have worked on, um, sort of

13:41

implementing to overcome this, um,

13:41

not exactly fear, but just maybe

13:46

hesitance to address issues is trying

13:46

to use we statements instead of you.

13:50

So not wanting to sound too

13:50

accusatory, but pointing out

13:53

like, you know, this was an issue. In the future, we need to do this, so

13:54

let's make sure this doesn't happen again.

13:57

And, and sort of communicating

13:57

it as this is team science, so

14:00

let's make sure that, you know, we

14:00

correct our actions in the future.

14:03

And then also, um, it sounds a little

14:03

cheesy, but like the compliment sandwich

14:07

I feel like is always a nice default. So here's something you did great.

14:10

Here's something that wasn't that awesome, but here's something else that you did nice.

14:13

So like to finish off on

14:13

like sort of a good vibe.

14:15

You know, the last thing that I want

14:15

is my mentees to feel like they can't

14:18

come to me when they make mistakes

14:18

or feel like they're going to get

14:20

yelled at or anything like that. So, I try and sort of stay within that

14:22

space and that's definitely helped me

14:25

to be more direct when issues come up.

14:28

Yeah. And I feel like another thing that, that

14:28

I try to do is to, rather than assuming

14:35

that I understand the situation or what's

14:35

going on in their head, or even assuming

14:40

that we have the same understanding of

14:40

what happened, but to really ask questions

14:45

about, you know, how do you feel about

14:45

how that went as opposed to telling

14:50

them [laughs] that didn't go great.

14:52

I think sometimes coming from

14:52

that, that questioning space, you

14:56

can start having a more productive

14:56

conversation than a more accusatory one.

15:01

So along

15:01

those lines, how do you all

15:04

approach mentoring a given student?

15:06

Do you have sort of a default way

15:06

that you approach all your students

15:10

and then you start tailoring, um,

15:10

once you learn about them more?

15:15

Or do you kind of like figure

15:15

out what it is that makes them

15:19

tick and then start from there?

15:22

Yeah. Just what is your process? Obviously all people are different, but

15:23

curious to know what your approach is

15:26

when mentoring, um, various students.

15:30

I guess, on my career

15:30

stage, I already structure, uh,

15:35

expectations especially when I don't

15:35

know the mentee and they want to come

15:39

and work in my research laboratory. I always have a full day of orientation.

15:45

Uh, this is my research. I, you know, provide them the literature.

15:49

I present a few posters, then I

15:49

go into their career goals, um,

15:55

and what are they looking for? And then I, sort of, go into

15:57

these are my expectations when

16:01

you come to the research lab. This is what I expect from you.

16:05

And this is the type of research

16:05

experience that you're going to get

16:10

from me and the learning process.

16:12

And so obviously it's gonna take

16:12

more than one day, but I try to lay

16:15

out the expectations, you know, we

16:15

gotta be a good lab citizen and,

16:20

you know, get along with others, and

16:20

this is how we get along in the lab.

16:24

This is our values as a group

16:24

and also culturally speaking,

16:27

we respect each other. And so I laid out those expectations.

16:31

And so there's no

16:31

miscommunication later on.

16:34

You know, "you didn't tell me this," or "I

16:34

didn't think this was expected out of me."

16:38

And as I mentioned before, I want

16:38

to know the mentees specifically,

16:43

what are their career goals. So like, I want to be able to provide

16:44

that, as a mentor, I'm invested

16:48

in their careers and they're not

16:48

just there to help me, right?

16:52

And it should be a, a learning

16:52

experience for both of us.

16:55

Uh, so I tried to lay it out from the

16:55

first day and then kind of follow up

16:59

with do you have any other questions? And so it's not going to

17:00

be done in one session.

17:03

It may take a few more sessions as

17:03

we, you know, build the chemistry

17:07

between the mentee and the mentor.

17:09

So at my stage, I think

17:09

I mostly tailor my mentorship to the

17:14

student's sense of motivation, which I

17:14

try and thrash out in initial meetings

17:18

and also the roles that they, um, are

17:18

hoping to fill within the lab, whether

17:21

it's working as a work- study student

17:21

or taking lab participation for course

17:27

credit, um, and then also just how

17:27

interested they seem in my work and

17:30

whether they're also being co-mentored

17:30

on other projects with other lab members.

17:34

So for example, I'm currently working with

17:34

a student, an undergrad, who has been a

17:39

fantastic undergrad research assistant

17:39

and who, um, throughout the pandemic

17:43

especially, has wanted to read papers, and

17:43

when we can't collect data, um, you know,

17:48

discuss ideas and come up with paradigms.

17:50

Um, and so, you know, we schedule our

17:50

weekly meetings, she comes with data

17:54

to show and, you know, we talk through

17:54

it and, my priority is making sure that

17:58

I am able to respond to her over Slack

17:58

when she has questions, et cetera.

18:02

Um, whereas in the past there've

18:02

been more students who mostly just

18:04

want to work on existing projects. Um, and so with that, checking in

18:06

when they have questions, but kind of

18:10

letting them lead their involvement by

18:10

checking in with me as they have time.

18:14

And that obviously fluctuates

18:14

based on their changing interests.

18:17

But I think, um, the more that a student

18:17

sort of wants to take charge of a project

18:22

and wants to take ownership the more

18:22

I sort of invest time, not just moving

18:27

projects forward, but making sure they're

18:27

learning the new skills that they want to

18:30

learn and to providing them the resources. But then outside of the lab, as a

18:32

fellow in the office of graduate

18:35

student development and diversity

18:35

here at Yale, also mentoring in more

18:38

of like, an academic big sibling

18:38

kind of role where I've been paired

18:43

with students in the neuroscience

18:43

department who are first years.

18:47

And in that it's more just trying

18:47

to help get through graduate school.

18:50

And it's particularly geared

18:50

towards, um, students of color.

18:53

And so, there, I feel like, especially

18:53

as a scientist of color, part of

18:57

my role is holding the door open

18:57

for younger generations of students

19:02

of color and scientists of color. So, um, I completely tailor my role

19:03

to making sure that any resources that

19:08

I've benefited from, they know exists.

19:11

So one of the students that I'm

19:11

mentoring now, I told her when she's

19:13

ready to apply for the DSPAN award,

19:13

I'm going to send her my application

19:17

materials and help her work on her

19:17

application, um, and things like that.

19:21

So, I feel like there are multiple

19:21

different types of mentor hats that one

19:24

can wear throughout graduate school. And I really try and tailor,

19:25

um, based on those things.

19:29

I

19:29

definitely agree talking about

19:31

expectations is so important.

19:34

And aside from laying out my expectations,

19:34

I also find it very important to know

19:39

exactly what the mentee wants out

19:39

of a mentor and mentee relationship.

19:44

And this is on a human

19:44

level and scientific level.

19:47

So, while I also wear a lot of hats

19:47

mentoring in more academic setting, and

19:54

then also in the lab, I think that having

19:54

the human aspect is very important.

20:00

And the sharing of expectations

20:00

will also lead to, uh, being able

20:04

to see what I could offer that

20:04

I hadn't thought about before.

20:08

And then on top of that, I also

20:08

think that regular check-ins with

20:12

mentees on work and also on emotions

20:12

and how they feel, um, is important.

20:18

And whether those expectations that

20:18

were talked about at the beginning

20:21

still feel reasonable or not. And you can adjust going from that.

20:26

That's a really great point. ' Cause things that, that worked at the

20:27

beginning may not necessarily work later

20:30

on depending on one's circumstances

20:30

or even just the nature of the work.

20:34

So that's a really great point, Jasmine.

20:37

So one of the things,

20:37

um, when we're talking to mentees about,

20:42

you know, choosing a mentor, um, we

20:42

talk a lot about, "oh, make sure you

20:46

find a mentor who's a good fit for you,"

20:46

but the converse is also true, right?

20:51

Like as a mentor, you want to be mentoring

20:51

mentees that are a good fit for you.

20:57

And so is that something you have

20:57

thought about in your mentoring

21:01

relationships and how do you determine

21:01

if you'll be a good mentor for someone?

21:06

Um, and what's the role of shared

21:06

background or other characteristics

21:12

in the mentoring relationship,

21:12

or making that decision?

21:16

Okay, um I must say that, um,

21:16

for the chemistry to click, you're right,

21:22

uh, it has to work for both the mentee

21:22

and a mentor, uh, especially if a graduate

21:27

student is doing a lab rotation uh, it

21:27

doesn't only have to be a scientific fit.

21:32

It has to be, in a way, career fit

21:32

and, also personality, in a way.

21:37

Um, for instance, there might be a

21:37

mentor who travels every week and

21:42

gives multiple conferences and never

21:42

available for the mentee and all

21:46

they do is just assign someone else. Even though they may be a Nobel Laureate

21:48

or someone who's a great scientist,

21:52

that may not benefit the mentee. So on the mentee side, I like someone

21:53

who's inquisitive, has questions.

21:58

I had a few experiences where, you know, a

21:58

couple of mentees seem great on paper and

22:03

I kinda ended up talking to myself a lot.

22:06

I was like, do you have any questions? No. You haven't developed a hypothesis.

22:09

You know, if I don't see someone being

22:09

energetic, I don't get energetic.

22:13

[chuckles] So, to, to devote my time

22:13

I like someone who's inquisitive, and,

22:17

you know, actually able to ask the

22:17

great questions, develop hypotheses.

22:21

And also personality wise,

22:21

being able to interact.

22:24

It's okay to deal with all sorts of

22:24

personalities, but at least have the

22:28

ability to communicate and be inquisitive.

22:30

And, in addition to

22:30

being a good lab citizen.

22:33

For me as a mentor, because I have a

22:33

very diverse lab, I always have to look

22:38

into the mentees background, uh, that

22:38

may actually hint me into specific needs

22:45

or being able to have, you know, those

22:45

cultural boundaries and respect that.

22:50

And so that is something that I

22:50

always pay attention to, especially

22:54

for diverse research groups. And I always try to have a science being

22:56

the common language among different

23:00

cultures, but at the same time,

23:00

being able to respect the boundaries.

23:04

And so that's something I

23:04

always want to, you know, pay

23:06

attention as well as a mentor.

23:09

I think mentorship

23:09

is definitely a two-way street and

23:12

fit can make it go really, really far.

23:14

But I also think that a good mentor

23:14

is a good mentor and can work

23:18

with a more difficult mentee, um,

23:18

as hard and as sucky it may be.

23:23

But I think for me, the biggest

23:23

determinant is if we can communicate

23:27

honestly and kindly and effectively.

23:31

And so similar background helps a

23:31

lot, but I don't think it is required.

23:35

I think having similar passions, um,

23:35

helps a lot more and, yeah, background is

23:42

nice, but we all have the same background

23:42

of being students at some point.

23:47

So there's always that.

23:49

Yeah, I think

23:49

that's a really good point.

23:51

Um, and so I would say for me as

23:51

well, background is not necessarily

23:54

anything that I sort of threshold

23:54

by, um, particularly because here in

23:59

sort of cognitive neuroscience slash

23:59

psychology, it really helps to have a

24:04

creative background, I think, or at least

24:04

maybe a diverse background to think of

24:07

new ways to ask and answer questions. Um, and so I think for me, it's more,

24:09

can I, in some way index how motivated

24:15

this student is, especially because

24:15

at my stage, I'm primarily mentoring

24:19

undergraduates, and then postgraduate

24:19

RAs, it's a question of, you know, did

24:23

they take a peek at the lab website? Do they have a sense of what exactly

24:25

we're doing as we're talking and I'm

24:28

telling them the method that I'm using? So if it's kind of a specific method,

24:29

um, do they seem interested in it?

24:34

And does it seem like they just kind

24:34

of cast a wide net and are just looking

24:38

for a lab to do their, you know, bare

24:38

minimum honors thesis or are they

24:42

actually coming with ideas or at least

24:42

an excitement for a science that's

24:45

going to be able to carry itself for,

24:45

um, a year, two years, et cetera.

24:50

And then beyond that, I really agree

24:50

that, um, a good mentor is able to sort

24:55

of mentee someone at sort of any stage.

24:57

I think as long as that motivation is

24:57

there and that you, as a good mentor, know

25:01

how to stoke that motivation, and excite

25:01

that student, um, as long as they're

25:05

motivated to work, I think that a good

25:05

mentor- mentee relationship can exist.

25:08

And I've definitely had some great

25:08

experiences mentoring students with

25:11

vastly different backgrounds from

25:11

mine, some who are vastly better

25:14

coders or programmers than I am. And who've done some really, really

25:16

great work, um, and have stayed motivated

25:19

and generated some really cool science.

25:21

Okay, I have a sub question. Have you had a mentee that you thought

25:23

would be a really good fit and it just

25:28

did not turn out to be a good match? I mean, in thinking about like these

25:31

things that you see in someone that

25:34

you think would make them a good fit,

25:34

has it turned out that that wasn't

25:37

necessarily the case and it could be

25:37

maybe just that one individual or is

25:41

it like, maybe looking for someone who

25:41

has this quality is not the best thing.

25:46

If I can speak

25:46

super generally about that.

25:49

I think one thing that I'll say is in

25:49

multiple labs that I've, uh, had the

25:53

pleasure of working in, um, there are

25:53

students who are super qualified on paper

25:57

and have, you know, a lot of programming

25:57

experience had taken all the right

26:00

classes, great at statistics, et cetera.

26:03

And then it just seems like

26:03

they're not into the specific

26:07

questions that you're asking. And so I think two things about that.

26:10

So I just recently talked to a

26:10

really impressive student, just

26:13

over Zoom, who was interested in

26:13

doing research, who was specifically

26:16

interested in neuropsychology,

26:16

um, and that's not something I do.

26:20

I work proximal to that, but I'm not,

26:20

I'm not asking neuropsychology questions.

26:23

And so as much as I was interested

26:23

in this student, I knew that I needed

26:27

to direct them to the right research

26:27

home, even though on paper, I knew that

26:30

they would be able to do great work. And that's something that has happened

26:32

in, you know, the lab that I'm in

26:35

and in previous labs is even if the

26:35

student is just a fantastic worker,

26:39

um, I think the issues arise when

26:39

they are just not in the environment

26:43

that speaks to their interests. And so no matter how, you know, skilled

26:45

they are, um, I think it's more the

26:49

role of the mentor at that point to

26:49

try and direct them in the right way.

26:52

So now, like the students that I'm

26:52

thinking of are now in other labs where

26:55

they're happy and generating great work. And so it feels like a loss at times

26:57

when we're, you know, saying goodbye to

27:01

someone who we know can do incredible

27:01

work with the environment that we create.

27:04

But it's also, I think on us to

27:04

point them in the right direction.

27:07

We know they're not going to be happy and productive in the space that we've created.

27:11

So I want to echo,

27:11

what Kat had just mentioned.

27:14

I had, uh, one instance of a

27:14

superb student on paper, you know,

27:19

top GPA, even doing research.

27:22

And this particular graduate student was

27:22

doing a lab rotation and as I mentioned

27:29

before, um, she wasn't asking questions.

27:32

She wasn't very motivated and I

27:32

actually had a few sessions, like,

27:37

you know, "Hey, what's going on? Is there something going on?

27:39

You know, you don't seem very interested."

27:42

And it's not a bad thing. And I actually told her there are other

27:43

research labs, I think she wanted to do

27:47

more of the bench work, bioinformatics

27:47

, and do more cognitive neuroscience.

27:52

Um, but this is something that I

27:52

always try to find right off the

27:57

bat, you know, is this student

27:57

interested or are they stagnant?

28:01

And if they're stagnant, I'll

28:01

try to find them a new home.

28:05

Communication is key, you know, it

28:05

might be great on paper, but if they

28:09

don't provide that interest, that

28:09

inquisitiveness, then it's just not going

28:13

to work out in terms of the chemistry.

28:16

Our last question, um,

28:16

where do you access support for your

28:22

continuing development as a mentor?

28:25

And do you feel your department

28:25

or your program or institution is

28:29

supportive of growth in that space?

28:33

Or do you have to go outside

28:33

to find those resources?

28:37

For me, we have a faculty

28:37

mentor program here at the university,

28:41

but also, um, when I was a graduate

28:41

student, my mentor was great uh, to

28:48

point out the different workshops

28:48

that NIH provided for mentoring.

28:54

And as I went as a postdoc,

28:54

there were, uh, workshops at

28:58

the University of Pittsburgh. So there are institutional workshops

28:59

available, but also, for me,

29:03

the National Research Mentoring

29:03

Network, it's supported by the NIH,

29:07

it has a certificate for graduate

29:07

students, postdocs and faculty.

29:11

And I go to societies like SACNAS, uh, and

29:11

ABRCMS that have some mentoring workshops.

29:17

When I go to judge posters,

29:17

I try to go to those as well.

29:20

Uh, so I always look for the opportunity. If I go to a conference, you know, take

29:22

one of those workshops that are freely

29:25

available, because a lot of institutions

29:25

don't have any workshops for this, or

29:30

they don't have this infrastructure.

29:32

So in my experience,

29:32

so aside from the formal mentorship

29:35

that I've had the privilege of

29:35

receiving from my advisor, Dr.

29:39

Nick Turk-Browne, a lot of the sort

29:39

of student- level or trainee- level

29:43

mentorship at my university that I've

29:43

gotten to take advantage of has been sort

29:46

of grassroots or sort of student driven.

29:48

So I mentioned the Office of Graduate

29:48

student development and Diversity.

29:52

We have a mentorship program where

29:52

we pair up fellows with students, um,

29:56

and so that's kind of, again, older

29:56

trainees mentoring younger trainees.

30:00

And then also in, in my department itself,

30:00

the Psychology Department, we have a

30:04

committee on diversity and inclusion here,

30:04

um, which I was previously co-chair of,

30:08

and we also do a similar sort of matching

30:08

of older students with younger students.

30:12

And so, especially when I was a first and

30:12

second year, I had two mentors who were

30:17

both fourth years, I think at the time

30:17

that I came to Yale and I would do things

30:20

like practicing presentations in front

30:20

of them, asking them questions about the

30:24

program and deadlines and papers that I

30:24

had to write and expectations and culture

30:29

of, uh, of the department as a whole.

30:31

Um, and so a lot of the sort of trainee

30:31

to trainee mentorship was really

30:35

motivated by students and also is

30:35

something that, as a general plug, I

30:40

think it could be instituted at a lot

30:40

of different, uh, different university.

30:43

And it is really quite helpful is having

30:43

someone who's done it before, be able to

30:47

give you this sort of insider perspective.

30:50

Um, and so that's the majority of

30:50

where I get mentorship from now.

30:53

And then also the, the capacity in

30:53

which I mentor at least outside of my,

30:57

my specific research and work is with

30:57

other trainees, both in my department

31:01

and at other, other departments at Yale.

31:05

That's really

31:05

great to hear that you had

31:07

that mentorship opportunity. And I'm glad to hear you talk about the

31:09

peer mentoring, because I actually started

31:13

a peer mentoring program at my university

31:13

within the neuroscience program, which

31:17

has expanded to other departments as well.

31:21

And most of my professional

31:21

development um, in mentorship has

31:25

come from the Posse Foundation,

31:25

which has been very instrumental.

31:28

It has connected me with a lot

31:28

of faculty and staff and graduate

31:33

students from around the country. And we get together and have trainings

31:35

together and get to talk about

31:39

mentoring from all these different

31:39

aspects, which is really great.

31:43

Within my university, there is not

31:43

that much built in, in terms of

31:47

formal professional development in

31:47

mentorship, but a lot of faculty and

31:52

staff have been doing it for years. And so they are actually the

31:53

number one resource that I go to.

31:57

I see faculty and staff that are really

31:57

great mentors and I come to them for

32:01

advice, talk to them about problems.

32:04

I look up to them and,

32:04

um, they're very helpful.

32:08

And overall, I think the important part in

32:08

developing mentorship, um, is also having

32:17

a layered network of people who care about

32:17

the same students and stuff like that.

32:22

And so I find that is very helpful, you

32:22

know, if many people are invested in the

32:26

wellbeing of multiple students or mentees.

32:30

Such a great point. I think it's so important to, you know,

32:30

when you're trying to work through,

32:35

a, a situation or a challenge with a

32:35

mentee to get that outside perspective,

32:39

because, you know, when you're in

32:39

it, it's very hard to, to think about

32:44

other avenues or other possibilities.

32:46

So, yeah, I, I like that perspective too.

32:49

[musical interlude]

32:52

Well, thank you

32:52

all for sharing your wisdom today.

32:55

I'm so inspired, [laughs] especially by

32:55

these graduate students who are taking

33:00

their mentoring, uh, to another level.

33:03

It's really awesome to hear that you

33:03

all have the opportunity to be mentors.

33:07

And you see the value in learning

33:07

and growing both as a researcher,

33:12

but also as someone who is in a

33:12

position to train other students.

33:16

So for each of you, can you share one last

33:16

piece of parting advice for our audience?

33:23

So I just want to say quickly

33:23

that, um, I really want to commend Kat

33:28

and Jasmine for being able to mentor.

33:31

Why? Because that's going to

33:31

enrich their careers.

33:34

In my experience mentoring, it's

33:34

something that people overlook.

33:37

"Oh, I don't have time. I don't want to do this. It's just a volunteer on my time."

33:41

But I will encourage the audience to,

33:41

if you have an opportunity to mentor a

33:45

student, or you know, even if it's peer

33:45

to peer mentor, vertical mentoring in your

33:49

career, do that because when you give,

33:49

uh, you know, service, you feel satisfied.

33:54

I feel satisfied. And I also receive back in a way, and

33:55

I, I think I develop more as a person,

34:00

as a human being and also in my career.

34:02

So I really commend our graduate

34:02

students on the podcast doing that.

34:05

It's really, you know, exceptional.

34:08

So I'll go ahead and

34:08

share mine, and I just want to, um, also

34:11

thank Jasmine and Ruben, I had a wonderful

34:11

time sharing this space and hearing

34:14

about both of your experiences as well. Um, so I guess my parting advice would

34:17

be to remember that, as Jasmine said

34:22

earlier, that mentorship is a, a sort

34:22

of two way street in that just as you're

34:27

teaching your mentees, they're also sort

34:27

of teaching you, whether it's a hard skill

34:31

that they have and you don't, or it's just

34:31

a way of thinking about a problem that

34:35

you've been working on for years and they

34:35

have a slightly different perspective.

34:39

Um, even if it's their, their confusion

34:39

about things and the ways that they

34:44

need help might teach you a different

34:44

way of mentorship or even a different

34:47

way of going about your own work. Um, I have had a very enriching experience

34:49

being a mentor to some excellent mentees

34:54

and have, um, helped them grow, but

34:54

also grow in myself as a scientist.

34:58

And so, as far as the value of

34:58

mentorship, there's also a huge

35:02

value add for you as a mentor. And to just remember that, that it gets

35:04

to be a learning experience for you too.

35:08

And that's one of the things

35:08

that makes it so rewarding.

35:11

Thank you all for such a great conversation. I've had a really great time

35:13

learning from everyone too.

35:16

And thank you for having us

35:16

on this podcast, especially.

35:19

Um, my parting advice

35:19

is to be honestly human.

35:24

I think it is such a good

35:24

reminder that I make mistakes.

35:28

You can make mistakes and it's all

35:28

okay, as long as we learn from it.

35:32

And, I have been very lucky to have

35:32

had a lot of vertical mentoring, also

35:38

peer mentoring, and it has made me

35:38

appreciate mentorships more and has

35:45

made me want to pay it forward more. So I really can owe it to all of my

35:46

previous mentors for who I am today

35:51

and how much I want to mentor others.

35:54

Awesome. Lauren, what's your advice?

35:57

Well, I was going

35:57

to say that it's okay to make

35:59

mistakes, but Jasmine just said it. So now I have to think of a different one.

36:03

[laughs] Um, so I'll just reiterate

36:03

something that we talked about

36:07

earlier in the podcast, which

36:07

is diversifying your mentorship.

36:12

And that it's probably best not to

36:12

have just one mentor that you rely

36:17

on, but really think about, um, all

36:17

the different people that are invested

36:22

in you and can give you, you know,

36:22

different kinds of advice and different

36:26

kinds of perspective, um, and really

36:26

developing that, that mentoring network.

36:31

What about you, Marguerite?

36:34

I think that

36:34

mentoring should be taken as seriously

36:36

as any other knowledge seeking that

36:36

we do, especially as scientists.

36:42

And we should constantly be thinking about

36:42

new tools or new ways to look at things.

36:49

And I hope people see investing in

36:49

mentorship development is just as

36:55

important as attending a scientific

36:55

conference, going to a talk, um, giving

36:59

a talk, and that it only will make

36:59

us better and our trainee stronger.

37:04

And I hope that even the best mentors

37:04

continue to pour into themselves, um, and

37:09

building their mentoring opportunities.

37:12

Well put. [outro music] So that's all we have time for

37:16

today on Building Up The Nerve.

37:19

And this season we're ending every

37:19

episode with a reflection question.

37:23

So this episode we invite you to

37:23

reflect on: what qualities do you

37:27

want to embody as a mentor and how

37:27

do you know if you've achieved them?

37:32

So thank you to our guests this

37:32

week for sharing their expertise.

37:35

And thank you to NINDS

37:35

program director, Dr.

37:38

Bob Riddle, who composed

37:38

our theme song and music.

37:41

We'll see you next time for the last

37:41

episode of the season, where we will

37:45

talk about structural ways that we can

37:45

encourage good mentorship to flourish.

37:52

And you can

37:52

find past episodes of this podcast

37:54

and many more grant application

37:54

resources on the web at NINDS.NIH.Gov.

38:02

Follow us on Twitter

38:02

@NINDSDiversity and @NINDSFunding.

38:08

You can email us your questions

38:08

at [email protected].

38:15

Make sure you subscribe to the

38:15

podcast on Apple Podcasts or your

38:18

favorite podcast app of choice

38:18

so you don't miss an episode.

38:22

We'll see you next time.