0:00

[intro music] Welcome

0:00

to season four of the National Institute

0:05

of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's

0:05

Building Up the Nerve where we discuss the

0:09

unwritten rules or hidden curriculum of

0:09

scientific research at every career stage.

0:15

We know that navigating your career can

0:15

be daunting, but we're here to help.

0:19

It's our job.

0:21

Hello, I'm Marguerite

0:21

Matthews, a program director at NINDS.

0:26

And I'm Lauren Ullrich

0:26

also a program director at NINDS.

0:29

And we're your hosts today.

0:31

In our first

0:31

episode of season four, we're going

0:34

to talk about how to get started in

0:34

undergraduate research, including what

0:38

undergraduates need to know about types

0:38

of research opportunities available,

0:42

how to find a lab, and what makes

0:42

a successful research experience.

0:46

[music] Joining us today are Hannah D.

0:54

Nacht, Ya'el Courtney, and Dr.

0:57

Michael D.L. Johnson. Let's start with introductions.

1:01

So I'm Hannah D. Nacht. I'm an undergraduate

1:03

fellow in the lab of Dr.

1:05

Victoria Abraira in the Keck Center

1:05

for Collaborative Neuroscience,

1:09

which resides within the Department

1:09

of Cell Biology and Neuroscience at

1:12

Rutgers University in New Jersey. Since being awarded the gift that

1:14

is the NIH Diversity Fellowship,

1:19

I have been [laughs] so lucky to

1:19

study something that I'm really

1:23

fascinated by, which is movement. In empirical terms, I study a subtype

1:26

of interneurons that reside within

1:29

the deep dorsal horn that take in

1:29

convergent information from non

1:33

noxious peripheral sensory neurons.

1:35

And they act as a gate during the

1:35

relay of sensory information to

1:38

motor pools and supraspinal centers. What does that mean in dinner terms

1:41

when like you just wanna understand

1:43

that and you don't want all the jargon? I study these really cool kinds of cells.

1:47

They live in the spinal cord. They do tons of work such as

1:48

taking in information about

1:52

touch, texture, muscle tension. And these particular cells use this

1:54

information to communicate with other

1:58

cells in the spinal cord, which can

1:58

make movement happen, like walking,

2:02

running, jumping, so on and so forth. And to what degree these cells actually

2:04

influence movement, we don't know.

2:07

And that's why we study it. So in its own right, we're learning about

2:08

the spinal cord systems, which is super

2:13

beautiful and fabulous in its own sense.

2:15

But then we're also learning more

2:15

information because sometimes these

2:19

systems don't function in the way

2:19

that we wish they would, for example,

2:23

with neurodegenerative disorders. That is what I study [laughs]

2:25

and my hobby, um, outside of

2:30

work is like anything that

2:30

enforces or supports connections.

2:34

So learning languages, cooking,

2:34

things like this that bring

2:37

community and people together. Um, but then like, don't, don't be fooled.

2:42

I also like to watch Netflix on my couch

2:42

for like, an embarrassing amount of hours.

2:47

[laughs]

2:48

Same.

2:49

We contain multitudes.

2:50

Yes, exactly.

2:52

Hi, I'm Ya'el Courtney. I am at Harvard University and

2:54

I'm a fourth year PhD student

2:57

in the neuroscience program. But my lab actually resides

2:59

in Boston Children's Hospital.

3:02

Uh, I work with Dr. Maria Lehtinen and we care a lot

3:03

about brain development before birth.

3:07

Specifically, we pay attention to

3:07

the cells that will become all the

3:09

neurons in your brain, which are called

3:09

neural progenitors or stem cells.

3:13

And we study how they get some of

3:13

the signals that they need to properly

3:16

differentiate and become the mature

3:16

brain and how those signals are actually

3:20

carried through cerebrospinal fluid. So my thesis work is on an epithelial

3:22

tissue that produces cerebrospinal

3:26

fluid, the choroid plexus, in

3:26

studying its modes of secretion.

3:29

Um, one of my biggest passions

3:29

outside of work is reading.

3:32

I've worked very hard to like rekindle

3:32

my love of reading for pleasure

3:36

in graduate school, much to, like,

3:36

my partner's chagrin when I ask,

3:39

"can I bring a book to the party"? And he'll look at me like, "no, you can't

3:40

do that," [laughter] but you don't know

3:45

when you're gonna need a book [laughter]!

3:48

Hi everyone. My name is Michael Johnson.

3:50

I'm an Associate Professor in

3:50

the Department of Immunobiology

3:53

at the University of Arizona. Uh, my laboratory studies how bacteria

3:55

interact with their environment

4:00

and specifically that interaction

4:00

comes to play when they're eating

4:05

or trying to find nutrients. The nutrient that I study

4:07

specifically is copper.

4:11

It turns out that bacteria at the host-

4:11

pathogen interface don't like copper

4:16

that much, but our bodies actually

4:16

do like copper, which is great.

4:19

We use it in metabolism. We use it in a lot of things.

4:22

So it creates this very interesting

4:22

niche of, we can use copper

4:27

to potentially kill bacteria. And our bodies already do that.

4:31

We already actually have a spray that we

4:31

spray on, uh, vineyards or we use that

4:36

same spray on potatoes to help protect

4:36

them against different, uh, pathogens.

4:40

So if you like wine and french fries,

4:40

congratulations, you're now Team Copper.

4:44

So we're trying to essentially

4:44

understand how the bacteria fight

4:48

back against copper and can we

4:48

weaponize copper as a therapeutic.

4:53

Uh, things that I like to do outside

4:53

of work, I recently got into uh,

4:59

running outside once I moved to Tucson.

5:01

Never thought that I would really get into

5:01

it, and then that snowballed into saying,

5:05

"Hey, do you wanna go biking as well?" And then, you know, I swam when I was

5:07

a kid, so now I guess I'm a triathlete.

5:11

So I just finished one, uh, this past

5:11

weekend where I set a couple of personal

5:15

bests, which I was very excited about. Uh, but yeah, I, I love the concept

5:17

of this crosstraining and just

5:21

kind of competing against yourself

5:21

and, you know, reclaiming your time

5:26

against all the other things that

5:26

actually come to fight you for it.

5:31

[music]

5:33

So what was, or is,

5:33

your experience with undergraduate

5:37

research, um, both for our trainees

5:37

on the call, did you do undergraduate

5:44

research and then for our faculty member

5:44

on the call, um, what is your experience

5:49

with supervising undergraduates?

5:51

So I can tell

5:51

you I did not do a shred of

5:54

undergraduate research in science.

5:57

Get him off the podcast. [laughter]

5:59

Get me off, I'm done. I actually did have a senior

6:01

research project where I investigated

6:05

the evolution of the trumpet. So I was a music major in college.

6:08

So yeah, I, I came to the science

6:08

world a little bit later than most.

6:13

Um, But it did mean that I

6:13

had a lot of catching up to do

6:17

when I got to graduate school. Everybody else had had some

6:18

research opportunities.

6:21

Everybody else you know, seemed like

6:21

they knew what they were talking about,

6:25

and I just kind of was constantly just

6:25

trying to run to stay in the same place.

6:30

I think if I had started in

6:30

undergrad, that that definitely

6:33

would've been helpful. But to be fair, I didn't know that

6:34

I wanted to do this in undergrad.

6:37

So right now, um, I actually realize

6:37

how valuable, uh, summer research

6:45

programs are as a PI because we look

6:45

at a lot of admissions applications for

6:50

people trying to come into grad school. And one of the things that we look

6:52

at are, is this person serious about

6:56

graduate school or you know, basically

6:56

is this person serious about wanting

7:00

to pursue science as a career?

7:03

And one of the ways that they can

7:03

show that they're serious is by

7:05

doing research at different levels.

7:08

Were they a technician,

7:08

if they took time off?

7:10

Did they do undergraduate research? Can they explain their undergraduate

7:12

research project, instead of just

7:16

saying, I did a list of techniques. I realized that with COVID there

7:18

were a lot of people who missed out

7:23

on summer research opportunities. A lot of these summer research programs

7:25

are, uh, for underrepresented minority

7:29

or minoritized populations, and I didn't

7:29

want them to miss out ,you know, in that

7:33

pool of applicants for graduate school. So I said, we can do something

7:35

about this in a virtual space.

7:39

Uh, so I made the National Summer

7:39

Undergraduate Research Project.

7:42

This year we'll go over

7:42

400 students helped.

7:45

They will also be, uh,

7:45

paid, which is also nice.

7:48

Uh, but it's to facilitate , full-time

7:48

research for eight weeks for, uh,

7:52

someone in a completely remote capacity.

7:55

It's been really, really nice seeing how

7:55

people learn how to develop hypotheses and

8:01

test them even in this, you know, between

8:01

their mentor in this virtual space.

8:05

Cuz it doesn't always have to be done in person. But you know, I think that having

8:07

that bench experience is still very,

8:11

very helpful and very, very necessary.

8:14

Yeah. That's really awesome. Congratulations.

8:16

I remember when this program

8:16

was born and so even just in a

8:20

short time, it's really grown.

8:23

Thank you very much.

8:24

That is incredible. I find the work that you do and the

8:26

program that you offer to be incredible.

8:30

It's actually very

8:30

applicable to my situation.

8:32

I'm currently in undergrad research.

8:35

I do my research at a lab here in New

8:35

Jersey at Rutgers, that's local to me,

8:39

but I'm actually a student of Oregon

8:39

State University, so I don't have

8:43

access to any labs and, and exactly

8:43

the situation you're describing, which

8:48

is students who didn't have access,

8:48

that is where I found my downfall.

8:52

And I am 26.

8:54

I came to education very late. I dropped out of high school.

8:57

So there was this huge gap of time

8:57

where I, I didn't even take a high

9:01

school biology or chemistry class. I've never been in a lab.

9:04

I wound up reaching out to an

9:04

advisor at my university who

9:07

wasn't even my advisor, but he was

9:07

running a neuroscience program, Dr.

9:11

Kenton Hokanson. And I said like, "Hey, I, I am lost.

9:15

I don't know how to access this. What should I do?" And he said," reach out and, and you

9:16

should get some experience in a lab."

9:21

And so I did. And that's why I love that, Dr.

9:24

Johnson, you're offering these

9:24

programs because for students like

9:27

me, I think that that is such a, a

9:27

joy and such a gift to offer people.

9:32

And then part of, you know,

9:32

talking about undergrad research

9:35

is, is why should students do it? By getting into the lab early and by

9:37

being a part of undergrad research to

9:41

be able to step into that at an earlier

9:41

place, you can kind of take hold of

9:47

the privilege that is doing something

9:47

that you like, while also allowing

9:51

yourself more experience to know that

9:51

when you do graduate, "okay, this

9:56

is the path I'm gonna follow because

9:56

maybe I don't know exactly what I

9:59

wanna do, but I know I definitely don't

9:59

wanna do this," or "I know, I like to

10:03

learn a little bit more about this." So I think that undergrad

10:05

experience is definitely helpful.

10:08

Um, albeit, you know, you might need

10:08

to put in a little extra effort if you

10:13

don't have direct access to a facility.

10:16

Yeah, absolutely wild. I also didn't finish high school.

10:20

Oh my god, hey! [laughs]

10:21

I don't know what the odds of that are. Um,

10:24

Look at that. Look at how we just be knowing!

10:27

That's wild.

10:28

Bringing worlds together!

10:30

Like, so, but that

10:30

feeds really into then how my undergrad

10:34

research experience went because I

10:34

didn't graduate from high school and

10:37

I ended up managing a Wendy's, right

10:37

around the time where I would've been.

10:40

And I gave a lot of intentional thought

10:40

to, like, what I wanted to do with

10:43

my life and did I even wanna go to

10:43

college and what did I want in life?

10:46

And throwing it back to my love of

10:46

reading, I decided the way I was gonna

10:49

do that was basically like go to the

10:49

library, picked up whatever books felt

10:52

cool to me about literally anything.

10:54

Wedding planning, wine, uh, abnormal

10:54

psychology, and that's what got me.

10:59

It's these books about abnormal psychology

10:59

and like mental illness, which is

11:03

something I was already passionate about. But I'd read these books and I was

11:04

like, well, how do they know this stuff?

11:07

And I would like see the references. And I was like, well, who does this work?

11:10

And I realized that it's scientists and

11:10

it's psychologists and neuroscientists.

11:14

And I was like, well, how do I do that? Oh, I gotta go to college.

11:17

But to actually do the science, in the

11:17

way that I wanted to, I realized I had

11:21

to go to grad school too, so I knew all

11:21

this like around the time I got my G.E.D.

11:24

And had to like get into college

11:24

and also then go to grad school.

11:27

But what that meant was actually

11:27

really good because I went to

11:30

Kent State University in Ohio and

11:30

I started as a freshman knowing

11:33

I wanted to go to grad school. So I googled, how do

11:34

you go to grad school?

11:36

I said, how do I do that? How do I be competitive?

11:39

What do I need to do in science? And it said like, do an R.E.U.

11:42

Do a Research Experience for

11:42

Undergrads, these funded summer things.

11:45

And I was like, I don't know what that is. And so I like scrambled to find people

11:47

to write me letters of rec and they did

11:50

magically, thankfully, thank you Dr.

11:52

Joel Hughes. But um, that got me into BP ENDURE

11:53

at Wash U, which is crazy because

11:58

that's a hard, I feel like a

11:58

hard summer program to get into.

12:00

And it's two summers of funded research

12:00

at Washington University in St.

12:04

Louis, uh, which just

12:04

changed my life incredibly.

12:07

And then that also helped me

12:07

get involved in research at my

12:10

undergraduate institution, uh, where

12:10

I started in psychology research.

12:14

But, um, as Hannah said, one of the

12:14

reasons it's important to get involved in

12:18

research is to figure out if you like it. And I realized I didn't like

12:20

psychology research that much for

12:22

myself because we were working

12:22

with a lot of human participants.

12:25

We were doing these like stress

12:25

and speaking studies, and I found

12:28

myself really wanting to study like

12:28

cells and like wet lab biology.

12:32

So because I had some research experience

12:32

with the humans in the psychology

12:35

lab, I could say, you know, this is

12:35

really important, but it's not what

12:38

gets me super excited every day. And I could go try a different kind of

12:40

lab, which I did later in undergrad.

12:44

So it was very formative in me

12:44

figuring out that, A, I do love to do

12:47

science and B, what kind of science

12:47

I would love to do on a daily basis.

12:51

That's awesome.

12:52

One thing that I don't

12:52

want people to feel intimidated by though

12:56

is that if you didn't do an undergraduate

12:56

research program, then you have no chance.

13:02

You know, I will say that the best

13:02

time to start an undergraduate

13:05

research project is as a freshman.

13:08

The second best time to

13:08

is to start right now.

13:11

You know, if you are an undergraduate

13:11

listening, do reach out to professors.

13:16

Find out who has an interesting

13:16

project, study what they're

13:20

doing and say, you know what? That's really interesting to me.

13:23

I'd love to join. I'd love to learn more.

13:26

Informational interviews are great, but,

13:26

you know, I just don't want people to

13:29

think that, you know, as we're talking

13:29

about these undergraduate research

13:32

opportunities, that if they even are

13:32

past undergraduate and they're like,

13:36

"oh no," you know, it's like no, there's

13:36

still avenues to get into it, so again,

13:41

I just want to do my due diligence

13:41

and, and say that as someone who did

13:44

not have any undergraduate research

13:44

themselves and came to do what I do now

13:49

and get to this point that I'm at now.

13:52

No, that's a great point. And that'll be our next episode is sort

13:53

of all the different flavors of research

13:58

opportunities that are available for those

13:58

who already have their bachelor's degree.

14:03

Cool.

14:04

Yeah. And talking about, um,

14:04

potential barriers to science.

14:09

Oftentimes money is one of them. Some people may think, "oh, well I

14:11

don't, I don't have the time to play

14:14

around in a lab and see if I like it

14:14

or not," or "I have to work to pay

14:19

my tuition or to support my family." Can you all talk a little bit

14:22

about, um, the types of research

14:26

opportunities you've taken advantage of? is it something that's worth doing,

14:28

say if you've got to pay bills?

14:31

Like do you get paid to do

14:31

research, um, as an undergraduate?

14:37

At least at our

14:37

university, uh, you can get class

14:40

credit for it or you can get paid.

14:43

Uh, usually it's not both.

14:45

And there are work study opportunities

14:45

for different laboratories.

14:49

If you qualify for work study, you

14:49

can actually do that in a particular

14:53

laboratory, um, for things like racking

14:53

dishes or doing assays, you can, you

14:59

know, start from the bottom and work

14:59

your way up as far as learning the

15:02

ways of that particular laboratory. There are laboratories who'll just

15:04

say, we have no money, but you

15:07

can try and take it for credit. And it's just a matter of speaking to

15:09

those PIs about that particular situation,

15:14

uh, to find out what's going on.

15:16

But once you get into

15:16

a lab, if you have a lab that is

15:19

filled with people who are, you know,

15:19

experienced with funding opportunities,

15:25

there's a, there's a world out there.

15:27

For example, I am now gonna be

15:27

funded by an NIH diversity supplement.

15:31

And because of this, my lab can

15:31

afford to keep me on for two years

15:35

because I'm getting paid, but it's not

15:35

necessarily coming out of their pocket.

15:39

And I think that it, it is something

15:39

to be said about the fact that

15:43

it's not just a matter of do I

15:43

want to work in a lab or do I not?

15:45

I mean, that's why I'm

15:45

doing online courses.

15:47

I couldn't afford financially the

15:47

tuition in New Jersey schools.

15:53

But in addition to that, I also

15:53

have to take care of family members.

15:56

So time-wise, I couldn't afford

15:56

to go to class multiple hours out

16:00

of the day only to come home and

16:00

then have to have to caretake.

16:04

Which is to also say that, you know,

16:04

being creative about how do we get

16:10

to the place we wanna be, which it's

16:10

kind of a double-edged sword because

16:14

on the one hand you need to know

16:14

people who can guide you in this way.

16:16

But on the other hand, you can listen

16:16

to resources like this that can tell

16:19

you, you can address this when you go

16:19

to, let's say, interview for a lab.

16:23

Are there funding opportunities available? Are you willing to help me write a grant?

16:27

Is this something you can take the

16:27

time out as a mentor to do for me?

16:30

And if somebody says no, then you

16:30

know that there are other labs

16:33

that might be willing and able and

16:33

actually encouraging of you trying

16:39

to access these opportunities.

16:41

Yeah, I mean, this is

16:41

an issue I'm very passionate about.

16:44

And I would say like, it's wonderful

16:44

if someone is in a place where

16:48

they can afford to do research

16:48

without getting paid for it.

16:51

And I think that many people aren't in

16:51

that place, and a lot of people who can't

16:54

afford it won't tell you that they can't. And that's what happened to me.

16:57

And I wish I had known that, you

16:57

know, I could advocate for myself.

17:01

I didn't have the vocabulary

17:01

to ask about grants.

17:03

I didn't know that these mechanisms

17:03

existed, nor did I know that I had

17:07

like the right to, or that I could.

17:10

When I started research in college during

17:10

the school year, uh, a lot, like Dr.

17:13

Johnson said, often there was this,

17:13

uh, dichotomy of for-credit or for

17:17

money, but I didn't even know that. When I first started I

17:18

was just volunteering. And then when I started talking

17:20

about getting paid, I actually

17:22

couldn't because for my degree

17:22

track, I had to take it for credit.

17:25

45 AM to

17:25

noon, lab from noon to three, and then I'd

17:31

go manage my Wendy's from four to midnight

17:31

every day and then do homework after that.

17:35

And like, I got so sick cause

17:35

I was so tired and I felt like

17:38

there wasn't any other way. But, but I realized, I never ever

17:41

told my PI how tight things were.

17:45

Like at one point my laptop broke and

17:45

there was just nothing I could do.

17:47

So I would just go do all the

17:47

work at like the public library.

17:50

And I didn't tell her and that was a

17:50

little bit on me, but I, I hope that

17:54

everyone listening to this and that

17:54

everyone else in every other realm of

17:57

my life where I don't stop talking about

17:57

this, knows that as an undergraduate

18:00

there is somewhere you can find money

18:00

for research and that, uh, if the PI's

18:04

not willing to work with you to make

18:04

that happen, it's probably a red flag.

18:07

Like even if they don't inherently

18:07

have the money, they should be

18:10

willing to help look for a source

18:10

or help you apply for something.

18:13

Many universities

18:13

have offices for undergraduate research

18:18

and oftentimes these people have their

18:18

ear to the ground as far as which

18:22

laboratories might have funding, which

18:22

laboratories have good mentorship.

18:28

Uh, they are tremendous resources

18:28

for where you are as far as trying

18:33

to find different access to funds,

18:33

different programs that might be going

18:37

on at that institution, different

18:37

scholarships, different funding

18:41

sources that you can apply for

18:41

outside of the institution as well.

18:45

So, you know, part of it is also, as

18:45

Hannah said, it's just like finding

18:49

creative sources to get yourself

18:49

into positions that serve you and,

18:57

asking questions, asking people,

18:57

you know, is the way to do that.

19:02

I think the

19:02

burden oftentimes is put on people

19:05

who are sort of at a disadvantage.

19:07

And I don't just mean

19:07

socioeconomically, but just you

19:10

don't know what you don't know. And so you're kind of operating a

19:11

little bit from a deficit, right?

19:14

You don't have the knowledge. And a lot of times what we're even

19:16

tackling with this entire season is

19:19

like this hidden curriculum, but also,

19:19

for those who may feel like they're

19:24

behind or they can't disclose what

19:24

their situation is, there are other

19:28

people who will happily tell you,

19:28

"I'm not doing this unless I get paid.

19:32

I don't care if my parents

19:32

got the whole tuition bill.

19:36

I don't have to work a day of my life. For my time I wanna get paid."

19:39

So also don't think that you asking

19:39

for the compensation somehow is telling

19:46

someone what your situation is if you

19:46

aren't quite ready to disclose that,

19:49

or you haven't built that trust, right? Don't be afraid to ask what you need,

19:51

whether you quote unquote need it or not.

19:56

That should never be the requisite of

19:56

whether or not your time is compensated.

20:02

So like there's also,

20:02

I think this, this notion of 'I'm new

20:06

here, I'm, I'm a little bug in the lab

20:06

of the jungle and like I can't ask for

20:11

too much.' if you're working from a

20:11

deficit, you might not know this innately,

20:15

but there's something to be said about

20:15

the fact that if you get funding, that

20:19

looks good for everybody around you,

20:19

so if your PI or your mentor or whoever

20:23

it it is in the lab is willing to

20:23

help you, you have now boosted up the

20:28

lab's credentials and saying this is a

20:28

lab that can help beyond just what is

20:33

within the, the four walls of the lab.

20:36

That's a great point. So, we touched on this a

20:37

little bit, but how does one

20:41

go about finding a lab, right?

20:44

They're just out there. Um, is there a website that I can go to

20:46

where all the positions are conveniently,

20:52

um, posted and I can choose at my leisure?

20:55

Uh, listeners, all of our guests are

20:55

shaking their heads no and smiling

21:00

because why would it be that easy?

21:02

Or you just start opening doors like, " Hey, anybody hiring?"

21:11

[laughter]

21:11

Go to a science

21:11

building and start knocking

21:14

on doors, and it's like,

21:15

Right,

21:15

"Excuse me, how are you?". No, it, that part is... I get a lot of emails from undergrads,

21:19

from prospective postbaccs, postdocs,

21:25

graduate students, all over the spectrum.

21:29

And the one thing that always stands

21:29

out to me when somebody is interested

21:34

in my laboratory is they'll actually

21:34

mention something they read of mine.

21:40

They'll mention a paper, and there's

21:40

no quicker way to a PI's ego than

21:45

to say that you read their paper.

21:47

[chuckles]

21:47

Yes.

21:48

Other things I would

21:48

say is, you know, having a very specific

21:53

and catered email to that particular PI.

21:58

Don't just say, Dear Sir, Dear Madam,

21:58

Dear Professor, uh, actually addressing

22:03

them specifically, uh, because then

22:03

I know that it's addressed to me

22:09

and not just a hundred other people.

22:12

Uh, I'm, I know I'm about

22:12

to get petty up in here.

22:15

Y'all, do

22:15

y'all have y'all notepads out?

22:18

Need a pen? Just sit down somewhere in

22:20

a quiet space and learn.

22:23

If you use

22:23

justify text in your email.

22:27

Automatic done. Just like, I delete.

22:30

Sorry. Mm-mm.

22:31

Oh Michael, we are kindred spirits.

22:33

Like, but in

22:33

my experience, when I see those

22:36

emails, they are the ones that

22:36

just are trying to cast the largest

22:41

wide net to anybody that they can. But it's those, you know, more

22:43

specific emails that come to me

22:48

that says, okay, well this person

22:48

is actually genuinely interested

22:52

in doing research in my laboratory.

22:54

And those are the people

22:54

that I at least meet with.

22:57

And if I can't help them, then I find out

22:57

what their interests are and try to find

23:01

somebody else that can, because that's

23:01

what this mission is supposed to be about.

23:05

It's supposed to be about spreading

23:05

research, allowing people to understand

23:10

and learn about this particular craft. We can publish papers until

23:12

the end of time, right?

23:17

We, we can do that,

23:17

um, as much as we want.

23:20

We can make all these scientific advances.

23:22

But you know, I, I think that

23:22

fundamentally the mission is training

23:27

at a university, so that we can

23:27

really protect this craft that

23:31

we all love so much in science. And so if I'm not helping them, if I'm

23:33

not doing my due diligence, then, then I'm

23:38

not from my point of view, doing my job. So, but you gotta help me, help you.

23:43

You gotta tell me what you need and

23:43

justify text is not telling me that.

23:49

[laughter]

23:50

Talk about

23:50

the hidden curriculum.

23:52

[laughter]

23:53

Yeah, I mean,

23:53

following right along with that

23:56

from the other perspective,

23:56

uh, emails is the way I did it.

23:59

So I was coming in as a freshman, a

23:59

huge university, like 35,000 kids.

24:04

So professors don't know you personally. So even if I'm in a biology class,

24:06

there's 200 kids, they are not taking

24:09

the bandwidth to talk to you after. And I didn't know where the labs were.

24:12

I didn't even know who had a lab. And so I went to just my Kent

24:13

State University webpage.

24:16

I found like a research

24:16

faculty tab, looked at the

24:18

descriptions and cold emailed, but

24:18

personally cold emailed, right?

24:22

I said, "Hey, I think this

24:22

work you're doing with

24:24

neuroendocrinology is really amazing. I like how you're studying sex differences

24:26

in the onset of neurogeneration.

24:30

I don't even know how to pipette. Here's what I'm looking for.

24:33

Would you be willing to talk to me? I'd love the chance to get

24:35

a research experience." I probably had like a 5% response rate.

24:39

But that's fine. And I got in a lab eventually,

24:40

and I did just email research

24:43

faculty who had their emails posted

24:43

and a description of their work.

24:47

I would've responded to that.

24:49

All you need is one response. That's it.

24:51

Mm-hmm.

24:51

Yeah.

24:51

You just need one.

24:53

This is absolutely

24:53

wild, because mind you, I'm an

24:56

online student from a university

24:56

on the other side of the country.

24:59

I've never been to Rutgers. So I'm sitting here looking through

25:00

the faculty page of Rutgers and

25:04

saying, what lab appeals to me

25:04

because I'm not gonna get in.

25:07

Dr. Hokinson who advised me to reach

25:08

out to labs near me to get some

25:11

in-person experience, he was like,

25:11

listen, go in expecting to fail.

25:16

You're not gonna get responses

25:16

from the majority of people.

25:18

Some of the people you'll get

25:18

interviews with, you might not go.

25:20

And I was like, okay, cool. So I'm looking at these

25:21

lists and I email one lab.

25:23

I'm like, you know what, I'll start with one lab a day. Let me make sure I'm doing this correct.

25:27

And I thought I was so unique

25:27

to come at this from emailing.

25:31

I thought everybody else

25:31

had their professor or knew

25:33

a friend who was in a lab. So I was like, I gotta make this

25:34

email the best email you've ever read.

25:38

This is a piece of literature

25:38

that is going down in the books.

25:41

And so I emailed what was an

25:41

unholy amount of text and I'm

25:46

emailing this huge thing to Dr.

25:48

Abraira and I'm like, but the thing is, is

25:48

in this email, again, high school dropout.

25:54

Just like Ya'el's saying, I couldn't

25:54

even tell you what a pipette is.

25:57

Does it have two Ts to spell the word? I don't know. And so I have to email this email and

25:59

say to her, here is why you should take

26:04

me, even though I don't even know if I

26:04

can do the work you're expecting of me.

26:08

And so what do I do? I come at this from a perspective of,

26:09

listen, I know nothing about what goes

26:13

on behind the doors of your lab, but I've

26:13

been taking care of people for 10 years.

26:17

I've been an adult with multiple

26:17

careers, and I know how to take care of

26:20

my business, and I can put in the work. If you're willing to meet me with the

26:21

education and if you're willing to

26:24

pair me with a mentor who can work with

26:24

me on a daily basis, additionally to

26:29

what you're willing to teach me, we

26:29

can make something beautiful happen.

26:33

And I got an email back the next

26:33

day, and it was probably not typical

26:37

to receive an email back from the

26:37

first and only lab I messaged.

26:41

But I think there's something to

26:41

be said about the fact that if you

26:44

want something, you have to tell

26:44

somebody why you are worth it.

26:48

And I told them, I don't know if I

26:48

can be worth it, but, like, I am

26:52

damn near ready and willing to do

26:52

everything I can to make this work.

26:56

Are you willing to meet me halfway? And I think coming at it from that

26:58

perspective allows the other person who

27:03

opens that email to say, you don't just

27:03

want this because you want it on your CV.

27:07

You don't just want this 'cause

27:07

your teacher told you you wanted it.

27:10

You want this for you and you want

27:10

this for us to make something better.

27:13

And I think that's the best thing

27:13

you can do is just put yourself

27:15

out there in that capacity.

27:17

Yeah, and

27:17

there's-- perhaps with the exception

27:20

of having justified text or not--

27:20

there's not a, I don't think there's

27:24

a wrong way to approach someone. When you're genuine and you're authentic

27:26

to who you are, you don't have to

27:30

fill out a form type of email template

27:30

to get someone to respond to you.

27:35

And again, some people, they

27:35

may not even see the email.

27:37

They may love to hire you if they actually

27:37

read it, but maybe they didn't see it.

27:40

Maybe it got crammed in with a bunch of

27:40

other spam or, you know, questions about

27:45

will you change my grade or whatever. And so sometimes it's easy to be

27:47

overlooked, but that, you just have to

27:50

go for it and hope for the best, but,

27:50

but respect what you're doing, right?

27:55

Or what you're trying to accomplish. Like having some reverence for the

27:57

person on the other end's time and for

28:00

the profession, I think goes a long way.

28:04

You do not have to be an expert in science

28:04

to get a scientist to want to hire you.

28:09

Yeah. Because they're not going to be

28:09

hiring you for your knowledge.

28:14

No. [laughs]

28:14

They're hiring

28:14

you for your work ethic, right?

28:18

They want follow through. They want someone who's gonna show up

28:19

when they say they're gonna show up, that

28:23

they're gonna take the science seriously.

28:25

A lot of times you're working

28:25

with animals, you're working with

28:27

people, like, these are lives. Um, like Marguerite said, like you need

28:30

to have some respect for the science and

28:36

they want people who are hungry to learn. So if you can honestly say that

28:38

you demonstrate those qualities,

28:42

the ignorance is not a problem. We're all ignorant in science.

28:45

Like that's the one thing

28:45

we all have in common.

28:48

Uh, and it's about finding the answers.

28:51

So, nobody's gonna gonna be upset if

28:51

you're coming from that mentality.

28:57

And kind of

28:57

shifting a little bit forward.

29:01

So you get a response from the

29:01

first person you cold email.

29:06

They want to hire you in the

29:06

lab or at least have you in

29:09

the lab to learn some things. Um, how do you know if it's a good fit?

29:13

Like I think this person that I'm

29:13

working with is helping me learn

29:17

more and is patient with me or maybe

29:17

is the opposite of that, um, can

29:21

you just talk to us about like the

29:21

fit of a lab and a fit of a mentor?

29:27

I think when I think

29:27

about this, there's kind of three

29:29

facets of a lab that I've kind of

29:29

separately experienced, good or

29:33

bad fit, and that's the people,

29:33

the questions, and the techniques.

29:37

Like you can like the questions the

29:37

lab's asking, be very interested

29:40

in what they're trying to answer. And that's what happened to

29:41

me in my psychology labs. I'd be really passionate about

29:43

understanding why people with certain

29:46

mental illnesses weren't able to do the

29:46

things they knew they should do right?

29:50

Or weren't able to stop doing things

29:50

they didn't think they should.

29:53

But then I got to the lab and some

29:53

of the techniques they used, I felt

29:57

like were so far removed from the

29:57

question that I got frustrated and

30:00

it didn't feel satisfying to me. Even though the mentor was great,

30:02

my colleagues were great, and

30:05

the questions were interesting. If you don't think the question's

30:06

interesting, I don't know why you would've joined a lab, so hopefully you think the

30:08

questions are interesting from the start.

30:11

[laughter] Um, but then the, the people

30:11

can also, um, determine the fit, whether

30:15

that's the PI and how they interact with

30:15

you or your direct day-to-day mentor,

30:19

that that can really mess things up. If your day-to-day mentor, say,

30:20

doesn't want a mentee, that has

30:23

happened to me and it was so crushing,

30:23

and I was just like stranded.

30:27

Uh, or the other peers in the lab and

30:27

are they willing to take their time

30:30

and teach you techniques and help you

30:30

learn this jargon and the skills and

30:35

then the whole scientific hierarchy. So I think there's multiple facets and,

30:36

at least in college, I found value in

30:41

labs even if I didn't like the technique

30:41

or wasn't that excited about the

30:44

questions uh, if the people were good,

30:44

I felt like at that point in undergrad

30:48

I could still learn an awful lot about

30:48

science from labs that weren't maybe a

30:52

perfect fit technique or question wise.

30:55

I completely agree that

30:55

it is multifaceted and you will never

30:58

know right off the bat and from just an

30:58

hour conversation with a mentor or PI.

31:03

And so it's gonna evolve over time

31:03

knowing what that good fit is and

31:07

also how to make it a good fit. How to communicate and how to work

31:08

with each other to make it that way.

31:12

But there are things you can, without

31:12

a doubt do from the jump that will

31:15

help set you up for success, right? Like I think walking into an interview

31:17

or a discussion with a PI or a possible

31:23

mentor, you have to know yourself and

31:23

you have to communicate based on that.

31:28

I cannot stress enough, and this is

31:28

science or not, but you can't walk

31:31

into an interview without asking the

31:31

questions that you need the answers to.

31:35

So for example, if you know without

31:35

a doubt, I only learn by doing, ask

31:41

somebody that you're interviewing

31:41

with, "Hey, how do you teach?

31:44

Do you teach by showing? Do you teach by sitting with

31:45

us while we go through it?"

31:48

If you know that, you know, "Hey, I need

31:48

to take a mental health day every few

31:52

months, what is your stance on mental

31:52

health and how does that interact in

31:55

our communication and relationship?" These are things that should be

31:56

addressed and that are not selfish

32:01

because ultimately you are asking for

32:01

the purpose of everybody having a, a

32:04

successful outcome in this dynamic.

32:07

And I think asking these questions and

32:07

starting with this open communication,

32:10

even if it's a little uncomfortable,

32:10

and even if that's not necessarily your

32:13

M.O., it allows you to understand that

32:13

I am a person and you are a person who

32:19

has capabilities and needs, and we need

32:19

to understand if these capabilities and

32:22

needs are gonna fit with each other. And you can do that in a respectful

32:24

and professional manner by asking,

32:29

what is your teaching style? What do you expect of me as a mentee?

32:32

What do you expect of me in the

32:32

lab, outside of the lab, et cetera?

32:36

And asking these questions, I think helps

32:36

you understand, you are also in control

32:41

of knowing what you're about to walk into. If you allow yourself the, the

32:42

time and energy to figure that

32:47

out before you even say yes to it.

32:50

It is difficult to

32:50

know all of those variables, when you've

32:55

never really set foot into a laboratory. You don't know what questions to ask.

33:00

You don't know how the research is,

33:00

you don't know how that machine works.

33:02

You don't know if there

33:02

are two t's in the pipette.

33:05

So, you know, I think that sometimes you

33:05

need to have a lot of self-reflection to

33:10

say, okay, what are the things that I'm

33:10

trying to accomplish here just globally?

33:15

What is the time that I'm willing to put in? And I'm not asking anyone to overwork

33:18

themselves but learning science isn't

33:25

exactly the easiest thing to do either.

33:28

And it is a challenge to it. And, and that's kind of what makes

33:29

it fun for a lot of us, because

33:32

we're putting together puzzles,

33:32

we're taking apart puzzles.

33:36

Like, allowing yourself to immerse

33:36

yourself in that environment before you

33:41

make those particular calls while, you

33:41

know, kind of having those standards.

33:46

You know, it just really takes a lot of

33:46

self-reflection to be able to say, what

33:50

is it here that I want to serve me?

33:52

Uh, and if those things don't align,

33:52

giving yourself the permission

33:57

to walk away from that particular

33:57

situation and not throwing away all

34:01

of science with that one situation,

34:01

but maybe saying there's another

34:04

laboratory or there's something else.

34:06

Yeah. And I think this segues perfectly

34:07

into our next question, which is

34:10

what makes a successful undergraduate

34:10

research experience, right?

34:14

Like, what are the kinds of things

34:14

that you might expect to learn?

34:17

I would love for

34:17

someone at the end of their undergraduate

34:21

research in my laboratory to be

34:21

able to ask their own questions.

34:26

And be able to say, based on what I've

34:26

done here, this is how I would move on.

34:31

This is an experiment that I would run. I read this paper and it said,

34:34

oh my gosh, if you go there, woo.

34:39

[laughter] there is a fundamental

34:39

difference between someone who's doing

34:44

work for a paycheck versus someone who's

34:44

completely invested in that particular

34:50

opportunity and saying, I'm going to,

34:50

even while I'm getting paid, put my

34:55

mind into overdrive in this particular

34:55

situation because it serves me to do that.

35:01

And finding those people,

35:01

having those people in the

35:05

laboratory is just phenomenal.

35:08

They ask other people in the

35:08

laboratory if they need help.

35:11

They're curious about

35:11

other people's projects.

35:14

They're hungry about learning more. Those are the individuals that end

35:16

up having, I think, the, the most

35:21

robust undergraduate research projects

35:21

because as they're learning from

35:25

everybody in the laboratory, they're

35:25

also saying, okay, I now know this.

35:29

So when they go to their graduate

35:29

school interview, they can say,

35:33

oh yeah, this person worked on

35:33

this, this person worked on this.

35:36

Here's the entire picture and here's

35:36

right here, where is where I fit in.

35:42

And understanding that role in science

35:42

only comes from that level of going

35:49

to everybody in the laboratory asking

35:49

those questions, having that passion,

35:54

having that level of comfort, uh,

35:54

in the laboratory to move forward.

35:58

I'm not saying that there aren't

35:58

really, really smart people who

36:00

can come in and just, like that,

36:00

pick it up, but I do think that the

36:05

majority of us are not like that.

36:07

And we need that particular time and we

36:07

need that curiosity to kind of burn that

36:12

flame hotter so that we can learn more.

36:15

Absolutely.

36:16

I agree with everything Dr. Johnson just said.

36:19

And so I'm offering an additional

36:19

perspective, which I didn't have until

36:23

I mentored a few undergrads so far in my

36:23

PhD, which is that I think a successful

36:28

undergrad research experience tells you

36:28

whether or not you like doing science.

36:33

And in order to determine that, you

36:33

have to go wholeheartedly into it.

36:37

Like Dr. Johnson was just saying, right? You have to really sincerely become

36:39

immersed in the science, learn how

36:43

the scientific hierarchy works, learn

36:43

the currency of science, learn what,

36:47

how to ask experimental questions. And it's only if you are able to kind of

36:48

understand and immerse yourself in those

36:52

things that you understand if being a

36:52

scientist is something you'd like to do.

36:56

And I think that's what these

36:56

undergrad experiences are about.

36:58

It's asking, do I want to

36:58

do this and do I enjoy this?

37:02

And even if the answer is no, I think

37:02

it's a successful experience because

37:05

you've learned that about yourself.

37:08

That part.

37:09

I could not agree more with

37:09

everything, Nobody in this conversation

37:13

has said you should leave undergrad

37:13

learning what, you know, this inhibitor

37:18

does and how it does it and this and that.

37:20

Like nobody in this, in the last 10

37:20

minutes has discussed the specifics

37:23

of anything you'll find in a paper. But what everybody has discussed and

37:26

reinforced is that your undergrad, and

37:31

quite frankly all of your career, but

37:31

especially in your undergrad research

37:35

or research in general, you're learning

37:35

just as much about yourself as you are

37:39

cells and molecules and processes and

37:39

pipetting and how to spell pipette.

37:43

And like the thing is [laughter]

37:45

It has -two Ts!

37:46

Two Ts baby, two Ts! [laughs] And the thing is, is that this

37:47

is just indicative of the fact that change

37:53

is abundant in the human experience.

37:55

And the lab is not this vacuum where

37:55

people walk in and they're scientists

37:59

and they walk out and they're humans. It's, it's just not the case.

38:02

And so when you walk into your lab,

38:02

as intimidating as the environment

38:07

might be, as insecure as you might

38:07

feel, as ignorant as you might feel,

38:12

you are ultimately a person existing

38:12

in a space with people around you.

38:17

and the thing is, is that science can feel

38:17

distant, but if you go in understanding

38:21

that like this is ultimately learning

38:21

about you as a person and those around you

38:25

and how to contribute and work together as

38:25

a team and how to be passionate and how to

38:29

discuss when maybe you're not passionate,

38:29

but we could still make this work.

38:33

You're not chasing this idea of

38:33

being smart as everybody else.

38:36

Instead, you kind of now exist in this

38:36

pocket of appreciation and learning

38:41

where fear of failure and sounding dumb

38:41

are not stopping you from actually being

38:47

successful and they're not stopping you

38:47

from making connections and they're not

38:51

stopping you from learning more ultimately

38:51

about yourself and those around you.

38:54

And I think that's a good way to

38:54

leave a lab with genuine interests,

39:00

a work ethic, communication

39:00

skills, fulfilling relationships.

39:04

Instead of just being afraid of like

39:04

power dynamics and sounding stupid, which

39:11

you could feel like that until you die. You could feel like that for 80 years.

39:13

If you don't change that perspective with

39:13

understanding that like this is just as

39:19

much about learning about yourself and

39:19

those around you as it is what you're

39:23

reading in these gargantuan papers.

39:26

The podcast just

39:26

became a pulpit [laughter] Preaching.

39:30

Hannah, you preaching.

39:31

I mean, that was a lot there. That was a lot there.

39:34

Hannah, I think there

39:34

are some scientists, like full grown, a

39:38

hundred percent think they're developed

39:38

scientists, that don't understand

39:42

that science is done by human beings.

39:44

I can tell

39:44

you right now, I put my entire

39:46

life savings that it is true. [laughter] I interact with

39:49

them quite frequently in fact.

39:52

Right? And like science isn't this

39:53

just like thing that exists.

39:55

It is created and done by humans.

39:57

And the whole reason we have the

39:57

scientific method, is because we

40:00

cannot be trusted as people not to have

40:00

biases and, and all this stuff, right?

40:06

And that is a huge part of

40:06

what you are learning in, in

40:09

the undergraduate experience. So Hannah, you're way, way ahead

40:10

of of things as an undergrad.

40:15

Where, where you trying to go to grad school? [laughter]

40:18

Listen, listen Dr.

40:20

Johnson, you know I write a mean email. You gimme your address and we'll talk!

40:24

[laughter]

40:27

No, lemme lemme just vouch. If you ever receive an email from Hannah,

40:29

you are going to absolutely be touched.

40:35

You're gonna go through a series of

40:35

emotions and be like, I love this person.

40:39

I don't even know her,

40:39

but like, I love her.

40:42

I was just gonna say, uh,

40:42

I think when, when, you know, along the

40:46

lines of what Hannah said, a lot of times

40:46

people do come into a laboratory and they

40:50

put far too much pressure on themselves.

40:53

You know, they act as if like the PI's

40:53

gonna say, here's a paper, solve cancer

40:58

by the morning I'm out, [laughter] right?

41:00

And it's just like, oh my gosh, like,

41:00

oh, how, how am I gonna catch up?

41:04

How am I, it's like, no, like no

41:04

one hires an undergrad to solve

41:09

the mysteries of the universe. It's really just saying, this

41:11

is a learning opportunity.

41:14

Seize it.

41:16

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think this, um, conversation

41:17

steers us really well into sort of

41:23

the last thing we'll touch on in this

41:23

episode, which is imposter syndrome.

41:27

And if you've never heard of the term

41:27

imposter syndrome or imposter feelings,

41:32

it's essentially having doubt about your

41:32

competence, your skills, your abilities,

41:38

and this fear that you'll be exposed

41:38

as a fraud and oftentimes these are

41:44

feelings had by people who are very

41:44

accomplished, very competent, but it

41:49

doesn't take away from these feelings. And so, um, in talking about this

41:51

hidden curriculum, I think it's

41:55

important to address imposter syndrome. I mean, it can be useful to

41:57

validate people's feelings that

42:01

they don't belong in science, but

42:01

it can also hide some structural

42:04

reasons why people feel that way. So can you all some things about what

42:06

you understand about imposter syndrome,

42:12

if you've ever experienced it, and how

42:12

you deal with it, either on a personal

42:17

level or how you've counseled someone

42:17

else that may have those feelings?

42:21

I, I can

42:21

definitely talk about this.

42:25

Oh, this is getting good. Lemme wait, hold on. Lemme get comfortable cause I feel like

42:26

you have to say something good, Michael.

42:31

[laughter]

42:31

I am a tenured professor

42:31

with over 7 million, or I lose track on

42:39

how many dollars I brought in as a PI to

42:39

this institution to study my research,

42:46

to run summer undergraduate research

42:46

programs; I run programs for post-doctoral

42:53

fellowships; I do things with my

42:53

scientific Society for graduate programs.

43:00

I just got a named professorship at

43:00

the institution, which is awesome.

43:06

I am an accomplished individual

43:06

and I appreciate that.

43:11

And those are just stating the

43:11

facts of things that I've done.

43:14

Yet, somehow I still think that

43:14

somewhere it's just all going to go poof.

43:23

It's all just gonna dissolve. It's all the ground's gonna

43:25

fall out from under me.

43:28

And how do we get around that?

43:31

How do we overcome that? We find those who believe in

43:33

us and we listen to them more

43:41

than we listen to that voice. My wife told me, you know, when I was

43:43

going up for tenure, she said, look,

43:48

you're an extroverted Black man who's good

43:48

in science, who has all these connections.

43:54

If this doesn't work

43:54

out, something else will.

43:58

So you look for people to put

43:58

words like that into your soul

44:01

so that you have a bank of those.

44:05

So when that, "do I belong here?"

44:08

Comes in, that "am I

44:08

going to be successful?"

44:11

Comes in, you can, you know, get your

44:11

squirt bottle like it's a cat on furniture

44:15

[laughter] and just start spraying.

44:19

And it's just, you know, it's

44:19

one of those things that you have

44:22

to keep speaking positive things

44:22

into yourself to overcome that.

44:28

But those voices, those

44:28

inklings are still there.

44:33

I don't think that they will ever go away.

44:36

We just need to come up with the

44:36

tools to combat them when they do.

44:41

There's plenty of negative self-talk that the world is gonna do to you.

44:44

You don't need to add on. Your-- your voice does not

44:45

need to be part of the chorus.

44:48

It doesn't.

44:49

I also like

44:49

think about it, like talking

44:51

back to these thoughts, right? And like arguing back.

44:53

And I can try the facts of

44:53

I've accomplished X, Y, and Z.

44:57

That doesn't usually work that

44:57

well for me, but talking to

44:59

non-scientists is so good.

45:02

Uh, I was a bartender throughout college

45:02

and the way, like my colleagues and my

45:06

clients gassed me up when I was like

45:06

[laughter] talking like, "girl, like

45:09

what you do every day is so beyond us

45:09

and also amazing, like, keep it up."

45:13

And I'm like, oh my God, no it's not. But thank you.

45:16

And then it helped. So it helped just to get outta that

45:17

scientific bubble where it feels,

45:20

even if your peers are nice, it still

45:20

feels like everyone is so smart.

45:23

And this, like, I'm not

45:23

really at that level, right?

45:26

But then you kinda just get outta

45:26

that bubble and you remember that

45:29

it's such a privilege to be here and

45:29

what you're doing is really cool.

45:32

And it's not about who's smartest. I really love my science and I am

45:34

careful to be a good scientist,

45:37

and that's what it takes. Um, the other thing that's helped

45:38

me is, uh, when I got into my

45:41

grad program, I was like, ha! tricked 'em, kind of thing, right?

45:44

[laughter] It's like, ah, you know,

45:44

and this, this man who was actually,

45:48

he was the dean of the department,

45:48

but he's in admissions and I kind

45:51

of like mentioned this to him once. He's like, that's an insult

45:52

because I've been on this

45:54

admissions committee for 20 years. We don't get tricked.

45:57

We know what we're doing. He's like, we picked you like, on purpose.

46:02

Uh, and so that, that

46:02

helps a little bit, right?

46:05

It's, it's everything helps a little bit. Whether it's people outside of the bubble

46:06

of science or people saying, you know,

46:10

you didn't get this position by mistake. We really do understand where you're

46:11

coming from and your qualifications,

46:14

and we really purposely picked you. We want you for this.

46:17

I mean, I deeply struggle with imposter syndrome. , I walk into this lab.

46:20

Mm. Again, no lab experience,

46:21

even in high school, nothing.

46:23

I have tattoos from the

46:23

shoulders down to the legs.

46:27

I, I speak very relaxed and informal

46:27

vernacular, which is not necessarily

46:31

the energy that is in a lot of labs.

46:34

And you know, I think that, there's

46:34

this preconceived notion of this is

46:39

what somebody or something in a lab

46:39

looks like, and that is never the case.

46:42

And are there some labs

46:42

that fit that to the T?

46:45

A hundred percent. But there are also labs like mine,

46:46

which is going to not only want the most

46:52

varied population of folks, but it's

46:52

also gonna be openly discussed and, and

46:57

our identities and our characteristics

46:57

are gonna be discussed and valued.

47:01

And I think that, you know, when

47:01

you walk into a lab and if you feel

47:06

imposter syndrome You have to remind

47:06

yourself, okay, maybe I'm not an

47:10

expert in what I'm walking into. But I'm a person and I'm

47:13

successful in other ways and

47:16

I've, I've made business happen. Like if, if you put down my history

47:17

on a piece of paper, three successful

47:22

careers, caretaker, this, that, you look

47:22

at that person and you think they can

47:25

work and they can do something in a lab. But when I walk in, because I don't know

47:27

how to read a paper the same way other

47:29

people do, I now feel small and 110%

47:29

there are something to be said about the

47:35

fact that there are systems that are not

47:35

built for certain people, and walking

47:39

into that system can make you feel small.

47:41

And people in those systems

47:41

can make you feel small.

47:44

But part of, of fighting against

47:44

that struggle, and this is

47:50

a, a piece of advice that Dr. Matthews graciously gifted me,

47:51

is don't be afraid to speak up.

47:54

Don't be afraid to ask questions. When you're walking in there, you walk in

47:56

there as yourself, not as a carbon copy

47:59

of the person next to you . And in the

47:59

grand scheme of things, nobody's expecting

48:02

you to come up with the greatest answer,

48:02

but what you can do is walk in there

48:07

and have some confidence in yourself. you walk in understanding that

48:09

maybe this system wasn't built

48:12

for you, but it's changing. And, and a way to make a change

48:13

is to be a part of it and to bust

48:17

your behind when you have the, the

48:17

opportunity and the gift to take part

48:21

of it because you are worth that. And the people around you would not

48:23

have you in this lab if they didn't

48:26

agree, whether they say it or not.

48:28

Can we just

48:28

pass the collection plate for

48:32

[laughter], minister Hannah's oration?

48:33

Thank you. Thank you. [laughter]

48:37

Tambourine.

48:38

I have to , listen, I have

48:38

to give credit to my direct mentor, Dr.

48:42

Jaclyn Eisdorfer, because when

48:42

I tell you I, last night, 8:30,

48:46

she calls me and she said, all

48:46

right, what are we talking about?

48:48

And I was like, "Jack, I dunno what to say. I dunno how to talk on this podcast."

48:52

And she guided me through this. So that is her very, very well deserved

48:53

shout out because she, she allows

48:59

the lab to feel like a place where

48:59

these things can actually take place.

49:02

So credit where it's due, like

49:02

acknowledge the people around

49:05

you who let this happen to.

49:07

Amen.

49:08

I wanna extra

49:08

emphasize something you said because

49:11

I forgot how important it was

49:11

to my journey until you said it.

49:14

And that was remembering that

49:14

we are not only scientists.

49:18

Um, if my experiments fail for

49:18

three weeks, that used to lead to

49:21

a lot of imposter syndrome for me. But now it's especially my involvement

49:23

with teaching and mentoring, that has

49:26

helped because I'm not just a scientist.

49:29

I love doing science, but I'm a teacher

49:29

and a mentor, and a sister, and a

49:32

friend, and so many other things that

49:32

add deep meaning to my life that if

49:36

I don't feel like I'm a very good

49:36

scientist for a month, it doesn't

49:39

actually bring me down that much. Like I'm gonna pay attention to

49:40

why my experiments aren't working.

49:43

I'm gonna be careful. I'm gonna design different experiments

49:44

and troubleshoot, but I'm not crushed.

49:48

I'm not like crying myself to sleep. I'm okay. Because I'll figure it out and I

49:50

have a lot of other things going

49:53

for me, and that's been really

49:53

pivotal in the way I see myself.

49:57

As Lauren said at the

49:57

top of the episode, we contain multitudes.

50:00

Mm-hmm. And the faster you can get that

50:01

externalizing mentality, right, that

50:07

these things that happen, they're

50:07

not a reflection of who you are.

50:11

They're a reflection of like

50:11

things that you do or things

50:16

that other people do, right? But that, that's very separate from

50:18

who you are at, at your core being.

50:23

And the most important thing in

50:23

science is to just keep trying, right?

50:28

Like, it's not about being smart, it's

50:28

about being persistent and creative.

50:34

A very wise cartoon

50:34

fish once said, just keep swimming.

50:39

[laughter] [music]

50:43

All right. Thank you all so much for

50:44

sharing your wisdom today.

50:48

Uh, can I ask each of you for one last

50:48

piece of parting advice for our audience?

50:53

I am, uh, sharing a

50:53

piece of advice that someone I don't

50:57

even remember gave me on Twitter,

50:57

but that sticks with me very often.

51:00

And it's, especially as an undergrad, take

51:00

every opportunity to share your research.

51:05

Every time you're asked to give a talk, right. Obviously as professor you

51:07

probably can't do that. Um, but within the bandwidth you

51:09

have, even if you're a little

51:12

uncomfortable with it, do it. Uh, in undergrad, the stakes are very

51:14

low and that you can only grow and

51:17

benefit from like trying to explain your

51:17

research in different settings and to

51:20

different people, whether that's to, uh,

51:20

the general public or to your partner

51:25

who asks you about your research or

51:25

in a poster presentation or anywhere.

51:28

Only good things come from talking about

51:28

your research and learning to understand

51:32

it more and communicate it more.

51:34

That's fantastic. I love that.

51:35

Agreed.

51:36

My parting advice

51:36

would be, fortune favors the bold.

51:42

If you are not willing to put yourself

51:42

out there, then, I'm sorry, there

51:49

are a lot of other people who are,

51:49

and that's just the fact of life.

51:54

It might be unfair, but

51:54

it's a fact of life.

51:57

So I will say that if you are hungry

51:57

for that opportunity, hungry for that

52:03

potential career option for yourself,

52:03

then you have to put yourself out there.

52:09

And that means learning

52:09

how to deal with failure.

52:12

Um, we do that a lot in our,

52:12

in the, in the laboratory.

52:15

It's basically just how do you

52:15

learn how to fail with grace?

52:18

Or how do you just learn how

52:18

to-- so many ways not to do

52:22

something or that don't work. Um, but it's learning how to deal

52:24

with that, learning how to become

52:29

comfortable in that chaos that

52:29

can be "I don't know something."

52:33

Um, and that's hard, that's, that's

52:33

frustrating, it's, it's intimidating,

52:38

but in the end, It is better to

52:38

have put yourself out there and

52:44

have it not work out than to regret

52:44

not doing it in the first place.

52:48

So be bold.

52:50

Be bold.

52:51

I think if I have any

52:51

advice, it is offer yourself as much

52:56

compassion as you can offer others

52:56

appreciation, because this is a very easy

53:02

world to feel small, a very easy world

53:02

to feel like you will never know enough.

53:07

And if you can offer yourself compassion

53:07

while simultaneously showing endless

53:13

appreciation and genuinely seeing

53:13

those around you and what they do

53:17

and how they are supporting you,

53:17

and also just doing their best.

53:23

I think it, it will lead you to a

53:23

place where no matter what you leave

53:26

with, you can always leave knowing

53:26

that you are offering yourself

53:30

enough space to do your best. And I think that that is the best thing

53:32

you can do in, in an industry where

53:35

everybody is burnt out and everybody

53:35

is doing more than they can handle.

53:41

And to see that in other people allows you

53:41

a wonderful opportunity to, to both let

53:49

them be seen and see that within yourself.

53:52

Very well put. Marguerite, what's your advice?

53:55

My advice would be to

53:55

bring your best self to this opportunity.

54:00

It's important to take it seriously and

54:00

not just treat it like something to do,

54:05

a box to check, but something that is an

54:05

honest attempt to bring whatever it is

54:11

that you have, even if that's that you

54:11

are a vessel willing to be filled with

54:16

knowledge and learning something from

54:16

someone and showing them that you have a

54:22

reverence for the work that they're doing.

54:25

And even if it turns out you thought

54:25

you liked the questions, but doing the

54:28

actual experiments is not really as

54:28

glamorous as you thought it would be.

54:32

You have to work with rodents and

54:32

they're peeing all over you, and you just

54:36

don't, [laughter] you don't like having

54:36

to have those behavioral test days.

54:41

Like, you know, it's okay to not like

54:41

something, but it's not okay to treat

54:47

someone's life's work in many cases as

54:47

if it were just something that you are

54:52

passively doing or you haven't committed

54:52

to what it is that you're doing.

54:56

And so I think it's really important

54:56

that whatever you have to offer

55:01

a lab, that you do it well.

55:03

And think even to what Hannah was

55:03

saying, like, honor the experience

55:07

and give gratitude to people. And if it means that you need to

55:09

move on to something else, that

55:12

you really can walk away and

55:12

say, I did the best that I could.

55:15

It didn't work out for me. Or, I did the best that I could

55:16

and this was amazing, I can't wait

55:19

to, to have a different experience

55:19

as I move further in my career.

55:23

What about you, Lauren? What's your advice?

55:25

I think I'll just

55:25

underscore kind of a theme that

55:28

was running throughout the episode,

55:28

which is that science is not just

55:31

the doing of science, it's also

55:31

just learning how science works.

55:35

So this could be everything from like,

55:35

learning how to network, learning,

55:40

um, organizational skills, the

55:40

communication skills, um, learning what

55:45

professional behavior means in science.

55:48

Um, there's a whole piece about like,

55:48

uh, dress codes and, and things like

55:53

that that we didn't even touch on, right? But that, um, once you know what the

55:55

culture is, then you can make intentional

56:02

decisions to say, you know, I am going

56:02

to talk this way or dress this way on

56:08

purpose knowing what, what people might

56:08

think versus like doing it unintentionally

56:14

and then wondering, you know, why

56:14

you're getting reactions you are.

56:17

And then you can also work very

56:17

intentionally to start to be the change

56:22

that we had talked about earlier. Um, but knowing what the default is, is a

56:23

huge part of that research experience and

56:32

is it for you or maybe it's not for you. And that's a, a beautiful thing to learn.

56:36

[outro music] That's all we have time for

56:39

today on Building Up the Nerve.

56:42

So thank you so much to our

56:42

guests this week for sharing their

56:45

expertise, and thank you to Bob

56:45

Riddle for our theme song and music.

56:49

We'll see you next time when we tackle

56:49

what to do next after finishing undergrad.

56:53

You can find past episodes of this

56:53

podcast and many more resources

56:57

on the web at ninds.nih.gov.

57:00

Be sure to follow us on Twitter @NINDSDiversity and @NINDSFunding.

57:06

You can email us your questions

57:06

at [email protected].

57:12

Make sure you subscribe to the podcast

57:12

on Apple Podcast or your favorite

57:16

podcast app so you don't miss an episode.

57:18

We'll see you next time.