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1:08

What is up, super nin friendos?

1:10

Welcome to Nintendo Voice Chat episode 676.

1:14

I'm your host, Rebecca Valentine, subbing

1:16

in for Seth Macy while he recovers from Gamescom

1:18

with a much needed vacation. I am joined

1:20

here in the San Francisco studio by the wonderful

1:23

Jada Griffin. Hello! I love your

1:25

excitement. I want to bobble it. I freaking

1:27

love doing this podcast every week, Jada. I'm

1:30

also joined by surprise, he came on the Nintendo

1:32

podcast. It's Ryan McCaffrey.

1:34

I parachute in every so often,

1:36

usually to talk about Mario games on this

1:38

podcast. Because that's my favorite

1:40

thing on the Nintendo platforms is I'm a Mario

1:42

guy.

1:43

It's a really great reason to show up. And

1:45

we are joined remotely by industry legend, Kat

1:47

Bailey. Hello, Ryan.

1:49

I'm surprised you found time with Starfield managing

1:51

to drop.

1:52

Well, we recorded a big

1:55

ol' long podcast unlocked episode

1:58

just reacting to our thoughts on the game. So

2:00

that's out if you want to check that out. But yeah,

2:03

after this, I'm going to try to finish up my work as

2:05

quickly as possible so I can go play more star fields.

2:07

But no star field

2:10

here. Instead, we're going to talk about

2:12

a sea of stars. Oh, yeah. That

2:14

was a good joke. I'm out of that one. That was a really good segue.

2:16

We have brought a wonderful guest.

2:19

It is Thierry Boulanger from Sabotage

2:22

Studio to talk about Sea of Stars before

2:24

we talk about Mario Wonder. Thierry, thank

2:26

you for joining us.

2:28

Hello. Well, yeah, thank you for having me. It's

2:30

a real pleasure to be here with you. Thierry,

2:33

you're the star for the first half of this show.

2:36

So I'd love to just sort of start this

2:38

podcast off. Tell everybody

2:40

a little bit about yourself and Sabotage.

2:42

What makes a Thierry? What did you eat for breakfast? Like,

2:45

who are you?

2:46

Sure. Well,

2:48

I usually skip breakfast. But I am.

2:50

Oh, my god. But yeah,

2:53

well, except for coffee without milk. But, um.

2:55

Oh, well, I got it. Right here. Oh,

2:59

yeah, well, there you go. No, so for

3:01

me, well, so I've been making video

3:03

games for, I'm about to

3:05

celebrate 15 years in the. Dang,

3:07

congratulations. So for, thank

3:10

you. So for the first eight years, I was

3:12

a gameplay programmer. I wanted to become

3:14

a game designer. But I, my

3:16

read of the game designers that I was

3:18

looking up to growing up was

3:20

it seemed to me like you go in through one of the crafts.

3:22

And then eventually you get enough of an understanding

3:25

of the production floor. And you feel

3:27

ready to maybe call some shots. You know, because

3:29

another thing that you learn on the production floor is that a bad

3:31

vision call will really, you know, derail

3:33

a team. And so, yeah, after

3:35

a while, I pitched my ideas to

3:37

my employer who said that I think we would rather

3:40

have you keep coding. So

3:42

I realized I needed my own studio if

3:45

I was going to make my own

3:46

ideas. And so in 2016, founded

3:48

Sabotage. The

3:51

idea was to go from retro aesthetics, but

3:53

modernize a bunch of the systems

3:55

and the gameplay and everything to

3:57

in short, make games that are as good as our

3:59

memory.

3:59

of retro games. So

4:02

pruning, you know, kind of keeping what aged

4:05

well and rethinking maybe what didn't to

4:07

try to present to,

4:09

you know, modern day players a distill

4:12

of what we feel

4:13

was great or made these games sing. So

4:15

our first game, The Messenger, came out in 2018.

4:18

It was an action platformer that

4:21

kind of flips on its head to become a Metroidvania,

4:23

which is a linear portion of Hidden

4:26

Plain Sight all along kind of. Yeah,

4:28

and then that worked out well enough that we were able

4:30

to grow the team and move on to the next

4:33

idea, which was to make our

4:35

own turn based RPG, heavily

4:38

inspired by Super Mario

4:40

RPG for like timing hits gameplay

4:43

and put

4:43

in things like that, and a bit of a wacky

4:45

world as well. And also

4:47

obviously Chrome Trigger, which from from a

4:49

lot of the presentation and the seamlessness of,

4:51

you know, no combat on the world map. And then,

4:54

you know, so anyway, I could go on,

4:56

but that's basically the gist of it. And here we are just

4:58

released after five years after pitching

5:00

it to the team. We were

5:02

here at launch two days ago. Yeah, congratulations.

5:05

I meet myself. Data and Kat have

5:07

all been playing it. I'm I'm

5:09

about 13 hours in just as a disclaimer for

5:11

anybody listening. So first half of this episode

5:14

is going to be focused on Sea of Stars. I

5:16

know a lot of people are very like they

5:18

super don't want spoilers. So if you just want to know

5:20

literally nothing about Sea of Stars because you're

5:22

going to play it yourself, skip to the halfway mark. We're

5:24

going to talk about the Super Mario Brothers Wonder

5:27

direct in the preview that just went up today. And you

5:29

can listen to that discussion. We will be talking

5:31

about Sea of Stars here. Generalities,

5:34

we're not going to spoil anything for you. But you

5:36

know, we might talk about the first

5:39

three characters that you get very, very early

5:41

on in the game or some real broad basics

5:44

of what the plot just fundamentally is

5:46

stuff you'd like reading the game manual or find on the back of the box.

5:48

So we won't spoil anything deep for you. But

5:51

if you just really don't want to know anything, you

5:53

can skip the discussion. But we'll keep it light.

5:55

So Jada, Kat, Sea of

5:57

Stars. What do you think? How far are you?

5:59

I think I'm right around you. You

6:02

said you're about 13 hours in. I think I'm somewhere around 14,

6:04

15 hours, so I'm not much further.

6:07

I just got to the point where,

6:09

not wanting to spoil anything, but

6:11

the point in an RPG where things kind of open up and

6:13

you can sort of explore a little more freely

6:15

than you were earlier. That's exactly where I'm

6:17

at.

6:18

I kind of hit that first kind of dungeon

6:21

kind of experience that you get. And

6:24

so it's definitely gave me a little bit

6:26

of Zelda vibes where you get this ability. It's like,

6:28

oh, now I can use this to solve the puzzles

6:30

that I saw. And I was like, I

6:33

didn't know this game was going to have this. I really like

6:35

this. Because I've been missing that. I've

6:38

talked about how I miss the

6:40

traditional Zelda format since we went to Breath

6:42

of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. And so

6:44

this kind of brought it back for me. And I was like, yes, I

6:46

get my RPG and I get my Zelda mechanics.

6:49

This is like a PB&J

6:52

sandwich for me. This is perfect. So

6:56

yeah, I'm freaking loving it. And I think

6:58

the writing is so smart.

7:01

It's like the animations that go along

7:03

with it are just excellent. And

7:06

I find myself smiling and laughing, even when

7:08

there's no like audible dialogue. Just

7:11

the characters interacting with each other. It's just

7:14

so,

7:14

so wonderful. Garle. Garle

7:16

is great. Garle. Garle is wonderful. Garle

7:18

is a joy. My warrior cook friend. I

7:21

love him so much. How about you, Kat?

7:24

Kat.

7:28

I'm not nearly as far as either of

7:31

you, though I do have Garle in my party. Thierry,

7:34

I was a big fan of The Messenger when it first

7:36

came out. And I gave

7:38

it a very good review on US Gamer,

7:41

RIP.

7:42

The thing that stands out

7:44

to me about The Messenger versus

7:46

Sea of Stars is that The Messenger was

7:49

definitely an ode

7:50

to Sega Genesis visuals.

7:53

Whereas Sea of Stars definitely,

7:55

it's more evocative of, say, the

7:57

softer, more colorful.

8:00

colorful 16-bit visuals. And

8:02

I'm curious, how hard was it

8:04

to go from one to the next,

8:08

because they're very different? Right,

8:11

right. Well, I can't speak directly

8:14

to the art, because I don't do any

8:16

of the pixel art. We just have people who

8:19

work on that full time, and they refine. But

8:21

what I was able to see on

8:24

the team, people working on it, is there was really

8:26

this concerted effort

8:28

to really capture the essence. And

8:30

we, for sure, you're correct about

8:32

the genesis. That was true for the audio as well,

8:34

right? The

8:35

sound bank that Eric worked with for

8:38

the soundtrack. But in terms of

8:40

the visuals, with Sea of Stars, we really refined

8:42

and did iterations until it felt more

8:45

like a super NES inspiration

8:47

as the base to use. But

8:50

also making it colorful was

8:52

a,

8:52

because in the end, it's

8:55

about the game feeling like a day off

8:58

during your childhood, is what we tried to capture. And

9:01

so those colors and the idea that there

9:03

should be some whimsicality to everything

9:06

that you do, yeah, it was very

9:08

core to it. So

9:09

color played a big role, for sure. Makes

9:12

me think a little bit about Shovel Knight

9:14

when it first came out, and how it was specifically

9:17

pitched as sort of an eight or even

9:19

16-bit tribute to

9:22

classic platformers, but heightened.

9:25

And Sea of Stars definitely feels like a

9:27

heightened 16-bit experience,

9:29

maybe 24-bit, 16 and 1-1-half,

9:31

I should say. Right.

9:35

Right, for sure. And especially with the, because

9:37

we have dynamic lighting in the game, which

9:40

is something that you would, obviously, that would

9:42

never run on assembly code

9:44

on a super NES. But to

9:46

tell the story of the moon

9:49

and the sun coming together and those children having

9:51

these wrangling light

9:52

to do magic

9:54

spells and all, we kind

9:56

of needed that to also

9:59

be in the environment.

9:59

and then the puzzles that we use, having the light

10:02

and the shadows and all. So, yeah, we push

10:04

it a little bit, but we always take

10:06

a step back if it kind of breaks

10:08

that immersion that like, oh, I can't pretend that

10:10

I'm pretend anymore with my big shirt over my knees.

10:15

I do that you mentioned. I love that he mentioned

10:17

the the lighting because it's and that thing,

10:20

Terry, that you were saying about about

10:22

trying to make the game look like what

10:24

you remember. Yes. Yes. Like

10:27

I think we all have the same brain. But that's

10:29

such

10:29

a such a smart way to go. Like

10:32

I feel like the the 2D HD

10:34

games that Square's done, Octopath, which

10:36

I I adore that art as well.

10:39

Like that's such a good example of it. I mean, that's

10:41

I I I

10:44

just wonder where how how you sort of define

10:46

the parameters of that. I

10:48

know I know again, you're you're

10:51

not the first person on the ground in

10:53

terms of the art, but but even from the from

10:56

the programming sense, design

10:58

sense, like, you know, if you're trying to

11:00

make this sort of retro styled game,

11:03

there must be temptations along the way

11:05

to to to go grab

11:07

some like modern thing that you know you could do.

11:10

But it might break the the

11:13

sort of 16 bit vibe

11:15

you're going for.

11:17

There's the thing is and you're right. And

11:19

there's even like shortcuts that we

11:21

can't use. Like we go out of

11:23

our way really often because the engines

11:25

are they try to do too

11:28

much, right? They're not pixel

11:30

based. Your code doesn't run like per

11:32

frame. It's a lot now in a separate loop.

11:35

You have multi threading. Now there was just something

11:37

about these games that, you know, was closer to a toaster

11:39

than a PS5. And

11:42

so now we have all these tools

11:44

and everything wants to do easing for you.

11:47

And it wants to smooth out the image for you. And

11:49

we need to walk all these things back to

11:51

keep it

11:52

kind of like have the rough pixels

11:55

because that's where it feels right for us. And

11:57

in terms of dungeon design and enemy placement.

11:59

and groups like that. That's one example

12:02

from Messenger was, we're

12:04

never going to have a screen with 25 enemies, right? Because

12:08

NES game never did that.

12:09

So it would feel out of

12:11

place on the timeline

12:15

of where we're trying to kind of

12:18

imprint this thing that we're making. And so the

12:20

same happens with the enemy varieties and

12:22

the length of some of the dialogue and the complexity

12:25

of some of the systems. It's always about keeping

12:27

it light. We're trying to distill and always

12:30

keep the thing going. One

12:32

thing we can afford, though, is we have

12:34

more memory, more

12:37

space for a big build. We're not stuck

12:39

on a cartridge having to cut Singing Mountain and

12:41

the best track on the Chrono Trigger soundtrack. Yeah.

12:45

So we can do what we can do

12:47

is we kept the idea of there will

12:49

be very little to no

12:51

reuse. And so in terms of the environment

12:54

art that we do, it's not like, cool, we made a tree now. We

12:56

can use a tree everywhere.

12:58

And so we're keeping these biomes very

13:01

small and very self-contained. It's

13:03

like you did the forest. That was

13:05

the forest in this game. We did the marsh. That's

13:07

the marsh. We did the cemetery. That's the

13:09

cemetery.

13:10

We don't let everything bleed into all

13:12

the areas. And so the idea was to create

13:14

all these pockets of these little moments

13:18

that you feel like, oh, we had this adventure,

13:20

this fantasy. Now we move on to the next one. So

13:23

that's something that also wouldn't run

13:27

on the console

13:29

older system and older game, if you will.

13:31

Tyria, I'm so glad you're here because

13:33

now I get to selfishly insert

13:36

one of my favorite games into the conversation that I

13:38

try to insert into as many conversations as possible.

13:41

So we've talked about Chrono Trigger a lot. But

13:44

to me, this game gives

13:46

mega Golden Sun vibes, especially

13:49

in the environment design. Chrono

13:51

Trigger, the dungeons were mostly

13:53

just like these mazes with occasional treasure chests

13:55

and stuff. There weren't gobs

13:57

of environmental puzzles. But Sea of Stars

13:59

feel like it's a fun game. like it has more of a golden

14:01

sun feel and that there's like cool

14:03

things happening in the environment and blocks to push

14:06

and things to climb and all these other stuff. Was

14:09

that among the inspirations? Were

14:11

you thinking of it? Am I totally crazy here?

14:14

No, absolutely. It was one of the

14:17

core pillars of the game is that

14:20

everything that we just all put it under the umbrella

14:22

of traversal. So a world

14:25

you can touch is something we kept on repeating. Instead

14:28

of you're not like on your catwalk

14:31

and the art is around you. It's

14:33

like no, you actually go and interact with

14:35

everything. The click moment

14:38

I had when it comes to that, it was a very long

14:40

time ago, but it's the first time I played the illusion of Gaia

14:42

and you're in

14:44

your classroom at first and then you

14:46

go up on the roof or at least I did, I guess you can make it right,

14:49

but I went for the roof and then you just jump

14:51

down. And just that moment

14:53

of like,

14:54

it's not like a big arrow that's locking

14:56

my character in something. It felt

14:59

so diegetic, so natural, so organic. You're

15:02

just getting to jump down. It's like, can we push this

15:04

idea even further? And then yeah, of course,

15:06

golden sun is another great example, just the hopping

15:09

off from one pillar

15:11

to another and things like that. And I

15:13

also heard a mention of classic Zelda dungeon design.

15:16

That was certainly this idea of, you know, you

15:18

see something out in the world, you

15:20

can't interact with it yet. You enter a dungeon, you

15:23

see this annoying thing that you

15:24

can't do anything about. Eventually you're

15:26

stuck in a dead end. You have to open

15:28

a big chest. Then you start, you have this

15:31

empowering thing of like, you know, taking

15:33

all the boxes of all these things you can do. And then when

15:35

you come back out, you now have

15:37

this and you can go back for an optional chest if you want.

15:39

And it's also paced, you know, moving

15:42

forward. Yeah. In puzzles and whatnot.

15:44

Yeah, it's a cliche, but it's such a pleasant

15:46

one. And it's one that Sea of Stars leans into where

15:48

you're going through and like you see, the

15:50

first one is you start seeing like these big green

15:52

crystals in the way, like all the time. And you're like,

15:54

okay, I know it. I'm going to get something that's going to help

15:57

me deal with these. When am I going to get it? And then you walk into

15:59

the room and you see the big chest.

15:59

and you're like, there it is. Yes.

16:02

Finally. That's a trope I

16:04

never die. I love it. It's it's a really

16:07

good one. Yeah. I

16:09

remember when you first I

16:12

remember when you first revealed this game, you first

16:14

announced it with the beautiful piece of key art

16:17

and everything. And this was, I think, 2018, 2019.

16:19

And

16:22

then there was a very early 2020. Yeah.

16:25

Yeah. Early 2020. And

16:28

something happened around

16:30

that time. And I'm

16:32

just wondering, can you talk a

16:34

little bit about grappling with

16:36

development on this very ambitious game

16:39

during that time? What aside from

16:42

having to deal with remote work, what were some of your

16:44

biggest challenges in making

16:47

this, especially amid very challenging

16:49

circumstances?

16:51

Sure. Yeah. Well, the first very

16:54

challenging thing was that we were

16:56

going. So the moment we wanted to

16:58

announce was on the spring equinox.

17:01

You know, it's kind of cute. It's it's kind of on brand.

17:04

And it would it was also going to be the

17:06

I believe the Thursday of GDC.

17:09

Oh, yeah. That's going to be GDC. You're going

17:11

to be doing hands on or something like that. Yeah,

17:14

exactly. And so, yeah, so, you know, we ran the

17:16

suite close to the Moscow. And

17:18

it's like, oh, we're going to have, you know, press rolling

17:20

in ready to give the pitch to everyone

17:23

and have these moments, answer all the questions, have

17:25

a hands on like preview of

17:28

the vertical slice. And then, yeah, of course, like,

17:30

you know, a week, a week before

17:32

we hear that

17:34

GDC is canceled, you don't get the go.

17:38

And then it's like, you know, because we're launching

17:40

a Kickstarter, the day that we're revealing

17:43

and everything hinges on that. And now it's

17:45

like, now it's officially locked down worldwide,

17:48

the acceptance or at least in North America.

17:50

And so it's like,

17:52

OK, do we still do

17:54

it? You know, we're a very small team and

17:57

everything hinges on it. You only get like the one.

17:59

opportunity to kind of reveal

18:02

your thing. And

18:04

so we shot the

18:07

pitch in video form at the studio.

18:10

And then we booked all of the appointments that

18:12

we had. We tried to do as many as we could.

18:15

It was still on Skype back then. That was before

18:17

any Zoom call or things like that.

18:22

And so yeah, and so from there we decided

18:24

to still go for it. But it was very

18:26

scary. And then, well,

18:28

to your... So we were blessed with a

18:30

very

18:31

overwhelmingly positive response. So

18:34

we reached our goal. We exceeded our goal,

18:37

which allowed us to kind of, okay, cool. That gives

18:39

us that social proof that we can now

18:42

do, have negotiations with

18:44

publishers who are coming to us because they've

18:46

seen that there's hype for what we're

18:49

proposing. And yeah, from there,

18:51

we just figured out the remote work pipeline. But that

18:53

bit, I would say, was really easy because we're

18:55

a small team as everyone is super self-driven

18:57

and we kind of each own our own

19:00

parts anyway. And

19:01

the way that we work, we're kind of like a... We're

19:03

a bit more of a flat organization. Like I'm the CEO

19:05

of the company, but I don't have my own office. I'm

19:08

just on the floor with everyone. And I only use

19:10

the crown to enforce

19:12

that we keep everything even as the way

19:15

that we approach things. And so everyone

19:17

is already owning their parts. And so

19:19

we just... We did what we would do in person,

19:21

but

19:21

each from our own places, we didn't really see... I

19:25

would say we didn't really see an impact on either

19:27

velocity or quality or anything.

19:29

Well, I backed it on Kickstarter. And

19:31

now I've been following along on all the updates

19:34

and I've got my steam code now from

19:37

back in the game. And I think this is going to be an awesome

19:39

travel steam deck game. That's how I've

19:41

been playing Open Image exclusively. It's amazing

19:44

on the deck. It does it's just such a great job

19:46

and doesn't drain the battery, which is awesome.

19:48

So it means you can get plenty of hours on

19:51

the steam deck. I love it. Also on that Switch OLED

19:53

screen with all those colors. Yeah. It

19:55

gosh, it feels... I mean, okay, look,

19:57

I sorry to keep bringing up golden sun, but I played

19:59

golden...

19:59

on so many road trips on my Game

20:02

Boy Advance, little handheld screen and Nintendo

20:04

Switch and portable, just, I don't know. Never

20:07

apologize for bringing up one of your favorite games.

20:09

Never apologize for like, for just

20:11

shining. I want to sneak

20:13

in a couple listener questions, if that's okay. And

20:16

conveniently we have one that addresses a topic that

20:18

we absolutely have to talk about. This is from Robin

20:20

Friend. What was your reaction

20:23

when you learned that Yasenori Mitsuda was

20:25

interested in composing several tracks for Sea

20:27

of Stars? Because dang, that music.

20:29

Sorry, that last, the end of the sentence I may have just added.

20:34

The whole soundtrack is phenomenal.

20:36

Oh yeah.

20:40

Well, when we, so

20:42

the way it worked is we reached out, because

20:44

that's the dream, right? Yeah. And

20:46

it had been for a couple of years, because

20:49

since 2017 I had been sort of, well

20:52

you know how it is, right? You go to GDC, you kind of have these meetings,

20:54

like about what you might want to do next

20:56

or whatever, and you meet some people that are like, hey

20:59

we can get composers, like that's kind of our business,

21:01

do you want to? And it's like, oh yeah, can

21:03

we get Mitsuda? And I always got

21:05

like just a wall, you know, it was like, well no, not,

21:07

well no,

21:08

I can have anyone, oh, I should have said except

21:11

for him, because you should know not to ask for

21:13

this guy. And so, but it turned out that

21:15

it was actually like really easy. We

21:17

sent an email to his studio,

21:20

and with a pitch

21:22

deck, and samples of what our own

21:24

composer had done, and

21:26

he replied

21:27

that he was interested, and

21:29

so we just started looking at everything, like okay here's how

21:31

much room we might want

21:34

to give a guest composer, it would be up

21:36

to, so it will depend like to the players that might

21:38

not feel like 12 tracks, because, but

21:40

in production they are, because we have day and night versions of

21:42

everything. So 12 tracks is

21:44

the total, but they, it might feel like

21:46

them for players, but, and

21:49

so like we would want to go up to 12, you

21:51

know, but we can only do the one, and

21:53

we'd be over the moon, and he basically

21:56

said yes to all 12,

21:57

which, yeah. No

22:00

idea what he saw or why he

22:02

said yes. Was it a timing thing? Did

22:04

he see something in the pitch deck or

22:07

we know he liked the messenger? So

22:10

that that probably helped as well. But

22:12

no that has been absolutely Surreal

22:15

and a cause for many many tears. Yeah

22:18

that had to just give an

22:19

Incredible jolt of of momentum

22:22

to the team when that when that yes came

22:24

through that's gotta just pump everybody

22:26

up Yeah, yeah, but

22:28

I mean I gotta say the the stuff the

22:30

the rest of the soundtrack is none too shabby

22:33

either I was I like playing so I like

22:35

playing a game with myself when there's a guest composer

22:37

of like trying to see can I identify? what

22:40

you know which of these tracks are his

22:42

and There's like I

22:44

haven't I haven't checked myself fully yet, but there's

22:46

like a couple where I'm like Oh, that is a

22:48

specific like sound font that he used in chrono

22:51

cross I'm pretty sure this one's his but I

22:53

found out that What's the

22:55

the track that plays in the water area very

22:57

early on with all the falls and stuff I felt

22:59

the coral cascades.

23:00

I found out that was his and

23:02

I had no idea because

23:04

it like felt so seamless with the rest Of the soundtrack.

23:07

I I thought that that was just one

23:09

of the original ones. So I All

23:12

of the music. Yeah, no, I've been it's been

23:14

headphones on for me the whole time playing this

23:16

the soundtrack for this game Is a complete vibe

23:18

like I? Just I

23:20

just can sit there and just listen The

23:23

battle theme is so great Like

23:24

it just does such a really good job and like the

23:27

battles are generally pretty quick,

23:29

which I love But

23:31

like

23:32

sometimes I find myself just kind of chill in there like

23:34

I really just have like not really contemplating my action

23:37

I know

23:37

what I'm gonna do, but it's just cuz I want to wait

23:39

for that next yeah I'm like, all

23:41

right now we attack there we go

23:43

I think the absolute most important thing

23:45

in an RPG is for battles To

23:48

be done relatively quickly like

23:50

under 30 seconds if you go

23:52

any longer than that They starts to get

23:54

monotonous kind of a drag so and

23:57

see if stars does hit that mark

23:59

I think they're a lot of fun and the

24:03

action, the button inputs,

24:06

the interaction with it works really well, I

24:08

think.

24:09

Yeah. Speaking of speed, I'm going to sneak in one

24:11

more listener question before we have to move on.

24:14

I really like this one from Charlie Gardner. Is

24:16

there such thing as too long of an RPG? And

24:19

how do you balance the story that you want to tell

24:21

while keeping the expected length in check? Asking

24:23

in part because I love the look of Sea of Stars,

24:26

but also recognize that my time is limited right now as

24:28

a new father and not sure if I will have time to complete

24:30

it. I will say for Charlie, the

24:33

reason why I really want to do this question is I looked

24:35

up Sea of Stars on how long to beat. Like

24:38

between 25 to 30

24:39

hours, I was so happy.

24:41

That's like perfect. Yeah, that's

24:44

literally

24:44

the perfect sweet spot for

24:46

RPGs nowadays. Yeah, but Thierry,

24:48

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. So

24:51

here's one thing that's actually a bit,

24:54

I don't know if it's funny

24:56

or what, but I didn't look any of this up

24:58

before writing the script or

25:01

doing the skeleton of like all the dungeons and all

25:03

the bosses and everything that happens. But I looked it up when

25:06

we were done and we are within a

25:08

few units in terms of both word count

25:10

and amount of bosses. To Chrono

25:12

Kriegar, which was not by it. It wasn't a metric

25:15

that we started from. But the

25:17

one thing is as some might

25:19

infer a little bit from our friend Garl there,

25:21

I was trained as a cook first. I was

25:23

a cook for a few years before I was like ready

25:26

to go to school to do something that I

25:28

thought my brain couldn't do.

25:33

And one key takeaway that I had was

25:35

as long as there is water, there is sauce, right?

25:37

That's something that a chef will teach you.

25:40

When you're in the rush, you're running out of something. Now

25:42

there's water left, so you can still dilute,

25:45

you can still add, you can still... And so that

25:47

was a great takeaway, right? Which is you can

25:50

do that, but you also, it's the last resort.

25:52

And so the approach in

25:54

designing our games is always to distill

25:57

rather than dilute. And so to the question

25:59

of how...

25:59

long it

26:02

is, for us it's

26:04

mostly making sure that every beat and every

26:06

moment is actually

26:09

like meaningful and engaging and

26:11

you feel like it was worth your time. And so

26:13

what we usually

26:16

do

26:17

is

26:20

we will have most of the dungeons, level

26:22

designer just goes, does blocking, tries ideas

26:25

for puzzles and everything, and almost

26:27

every single dungeon in the game we ended up cutting

26:30

about 30%. It's kind of like the pied

26:32

five idea, if you will, of like

26:35

you're doing stand-up comedy and you're just trying

26:37

and you're always keeping only the best ideas or

26:41

the things that really work out every single time.

26:45

And for us it's not that we

26:47

were like, oh 30% of the work was done, that

26:49

it shouldn't have been done, no, it's that by

26:51

not feeling this limitation, like trusting

26:54

that we will cut later if we need to

26:56

or wherever we need to, it kind of lets you flow

26:58

with the ideas a bit more because you're not worrying about

27:01

I need to make the definitive version of every

27:03

single thing all the time and then you feel this blank

27:06

page because it's not quite good enough or whatever.

27:08

And so we just play off of each other like

27:10

that in production where it's like, okay, here's like a first

27:12

version of something, oh yeah, this kind of feels good, I'm not sure

27:15

about this one. And sometimes we go from scratch, sometimes

27:17

we

27:17

remove half of it, sometimes we elevate

27:20

or emphasize a thing that really worked or we add more

27:22

anticipation to a payoff and things like that. And

27:24

so we really treated every

27:27

screen like one by one, every

27:29

single thing that you interact with was looked at

27:32

probably

27:32

too many times, but here

27:34

we are. Yeah, well, I mean, the result

27:36

is that I, you know, again, 13 hours

27:38

in, I don't know, I

27:41

feel my time is respected. Yes. Great.

27:45

It doesn't feel like blow, I think RPGs can tend

27:47

to feel a little bloated in the year of

27:49

our Lord 2023. Yeah. The year

27:52

of RPGs.

27:53

Well, I want to crowbar in

27:55

one more quick question for Terri's. Are

27:58

you a developer that likes to read

27:59

reviews because the reviews for this have

28:02

been incredibly good. I don't know

28:04

if you're somebody that would just rather not look at

28:06

them or if you're like reading every

28:08

word and either way I'm kind

28:10

of curious how you're feeling about the reception

28:12

of the game that if you were, you

28:15

know, if

28:16

you were confidently, like if

28:18

you really thought it was going to be as good or

28:20

if you're surprised at all, I'm always curious

28:22

to hear how developers from coming

28:24

from somebody that writes reviews of other

28:26

people, you know, that's critiquing other people's work. I always

28:28

like hearing from the person

28:31

being critiqued.

28:33

Right, right, right. Well, so my

28:35

main thing is I'll have some reviewers.

28:38

I don't want to make this awkward, but

28:40

Kat is one of them where I

28:42

really, I agree with them on what is

28:45

or isn't or you know what I mean? Like we kind of have,

28:47

I feel like kindred spirits in terms

28:49

of like intricacies and like what's

28:51

annoying, what's, it's okay. Cause it's part of the

28:53

game language or whatever. That's how most people should

28:55

read reviews. Yep. Oh yeah. You gotta find the ones you

28:57

align with.

28:59

Right, right. Exactly. And so I tend to

29:02

want to read those, right? Because

29:04

I'll be like, oh, did it come across what

29:06

I meant? Because I know that you are supposed to

29:08

see it if we did our job

29:11

properly. And then, well, yes, of course we're,

29:14

you know, our job is to provide entertainment. So

29:16

there is this hope that as a whole, you know,

29:18

people are feeling like, oh yeah, this was a welcome addition

29:21

to my life. It gave me a good time. And I'm glad

29:23

I spent my Friday night, you know,

29:26

escaping in that way.

29:28

So yeah, we'll look at the general

29:30

scores and I will especially read

29:32

the worst ones to

29:34

try to understand like, what are the things

29:37

that didn't really click? Are they like,

29:39

I mean, if we made an apple and you don't like apples,

29:41

I mean, then there's no, that's still what we're making, you know,

29:44

but if we made an apple and you're seeing a

29:46

banana, it's like, oh wait, hold on. Okay. So you're saying that

29:48

we got the color wrong. We got, we got the shape

29:51

wrong. We got, you know, and so maybe now there's

29:53

something that I can understand. How can we communicate

29:55

better to increase the odds that more people will see

29:57

what we meant to show.

29:59

So yeah, that's pretty I don't mean to not

30:02

answer the question. The answer is yes, I do read reviews.

30:06

But especially the bad ones

30:08

to try to have like take away that to

30:11

me that's a really evolved answer. I was an

30:13

excellent. Yeah,

30:16

like that's I don't know if I would

30:18

have the

30:19

if I would be like emotionally

30:21

strong enough to be able to do that if somebody were

30:24

reviewing, you know, if a bunch of people were reviewing

30:26

something I did. It is. It's

30:28

hard to make

30:29

art in like a public, a very

30:31

public way and have people like

30:33

tell you what they think of your art. I mean, it's

30:37

it's not horribly dissimilar to

30:39

reading a comment section, but maybe

30:41

slightly different because you have somebody who spent, you know,

30:44

hours and hours and hours and

30:44

hours. I think it's pretty different from a comment.

30:47

Certainly. But there's still

30:49

sort of this, you know, innate curiosity. What

30:51

do people think of the thing that I made? Yeah. There's

30:54

an emotional like kind of rawness to it when

30:56

you're when you put something that you've invested

30:58

a large amount of effort into out

31:01

into the world and have for

31:02

anybody with a computer

31:04

to judge, essentially, you

31:06

know, it's it it takes a lot of a lot

31:09

of strength to do that. So, you know, kudos.

31:12

And yeah, again, great response. That was fantastic.

31:14

I might steal that one. Not going to be not

31:16

even going to lie. Well,

31:18

Terry, I'm finding a lot of joy

31:21

in the art that you made for us. So thank

31:23

you very much. And thank you for joining us to talk

31:25

about Sea of Stars

31:27

and also to talk

31:30

about Super Mario Brothers Wonder, which

31:32

our good friend Ryan previewed for

31:35

us. Oh, hi. Hi. Hey,

31:37

what's going on? Let's talk about Super

31:40

Mario.

31:40

As the previews editor here at IGN,

31:42

all all pre-release coverage in

31:45

whatever form it takes runs up through me. So

31:48

between that and having been at IGN for a while,

31:50

every now and again, I can an opportunity

31:53

to see a real come along. I'll just go. I'll

31:55

just take that myself. I'll handle this. I'll

31:58

handle this personally. He

32:01

emails like everybody for a bunch of them's like these

32:03

I didn't even see an email for Mario Ryan was like I'm

32:05

not even fair. I did a

32:08

few other folks Because

32:10

you know, I'm not sort of one of the normal Nintendo

32:12

crew, but I do love I mean I've grown up

32:14

with Mario the original I'm old the

32:16

original Super Mario Brothers It was my first video

32:18

game ever and I've just always loved the

32:21

big Mario mate the mainline Mario games

32:23

both 2d and 3d ever since and and

32:26

from From the moment that

32:28

wonder was unveiled

32:29

at the direct in June I

32:32

was just taken aback like this it it

32:34

was so beautiful with

32:36

with all the

32:38

cute awesome little animations

32:40

and and the wonder effects I was just

32:42

I mean it just it knocked me

32:45

over in the best of ways and You

32:48

know cuz I know coming out of that

32:51

The the conversation seemed to be more about

32:53

the Super Mario RPG remake Yeah,

32:55

I feel like but kind of since then

32:58

wonders picked up some more steam and now everybody's

33:00

kind of paying attention to it and and Everybody

33:03

watched the that 15 minute direct

33:06

today, which which shows off

33:08

a lot of Of

33:10

the joy of this this game. I got to

33:13

play it for about an hour

33:14

And you can read or watch the preview that I put

33:16

together on IGN I also

33:19

had the privilege of Sitting

33:21

down with with Morison

33:24

and Tuzuka son the director and producer

33:26

respectively of Super Mario Brothers

33:28

wonder and you know Nintendo was kind enough

33:30

to send along a Cup

33:33

just bios of each guy ahead of time because

33:35

you know googling them But you know Nintendo

33:38

you guys know better than anybody they

33:40

they normally they don't really it's it's it's

33:43

just a different thing than most of the

33:45

West where

33:47

Nintendo doesn't put their developers

33:49

especially on these mainline games

33:51

out For

33:53

to talk to very often. We don't get to hear

33:56

from them. And so what I had the

33:59

added opportunity to

33:59

to do the interview, I jumped

34:02

at that because interviews are some of my favorite things

34:04

to do at IGN and and Tuzuka-san

34:06

in particular, what Morison

34:08

the director has been at Nintendo since 1997. He's

34:11

worked on some 2D Zeldas for DS and 3DS

34:15

and he directed, now I'm

34:17

blanking on it, but it was either I want to say is

34:19

either maybe new Super Mario Brothers or

34:21

Super Mario Brothers U, but he's directed one of

34:23

the the console 2D

34:26

Mario games.

34:29

Be it by land, air, sea,

34:32

or an ever-changing digital landscape, our

34:34

nation is threatened by the unexpected and

34:37

unrelenting, but as our enemies shift

34:39

and evolve with every passing moment,

34:42

Marines will adapt to defeat any

34:45

threat. Because in the battles for

34:47

America's future, there is only

34:49

one constant, Marines

34:52

who will win them, the few, the

34:55

proud, the Marines.

35:01

And then Tuzuka-san,

35:03

when I read, I just, I was, my like jaw

35:05

hit the floor when I read his bio. He's

35:08

been at Nintendo since 1984. Wow.

35:12

He worked on the original Super Mario

35:14

Brothers as a designer and producer. He also

35:17

was a designer and producer on The

35:19

Original Legend of Zelda and

35:21

Link to the Past.

35:23

So like this dude like, what

35:26

a resume that, three

35:29

Hall of Fame games. Yeah, the pedigree player.

35:32

So I was genuine legend. Yeah, I was so

35:35

excited to talk to both of these guys and there's

35:37

a, so it was a 45 minute chat

35:40

and there's some, some

35:42

stories that are on IGN that Reb

35:45

and Kat helped me, helped me get together and get on

35:47

the site. And I think we're going to put up the entire interview

35:49

just in its transcribed form.

35:52

Everybody go read it. It's really good. But so there's

35:54

some really fascinating insights to that, but,

35:56

but kind of getting back to the game itself. Yeah.

36:00

playing this was

36:03

was delightful. I mean, it's as delightful as

36:05

the game looks. Would you say it was wonderful?

36:08

No. But

36:14

I'll phrase it this way, which is how

36:16

I said it at the end of my preview is, I

36:19

think if they had wanted to, and I actually

36:21

did ask Tzuka-san and Morison

36:24

this, and their answer was fun, but

36:28

if they would have called this game, if

36:31

instead of Super Mario Brothers Wonder coming

36:33

up as the name

36:33

of this at the end of that unveil trailer,

36:36

if it had said Super Mario Brothers 4, I would

36:38

have been like, yeah,

36:40

yeah, I can see it. Like even

36:42

though that would have come with so much baggage, this

36:44

really feels like the next big

36:47

awesome step forward for 2D Mario

36:49

games. Now again, I only got to play an hour.

36:51

It was mostly early stage stuff.

36:54

They skipped us ahead a little bit to a couple

36:56

of slightly later stages, but

36:59

yeah, it's just a treat. And this

37:02

is like the most

37:04

multiplayer-tastic Mario game

37:05

that's

37:08

probably ever been made. Like there are

37:10

12-player online friend rooms

37:13

in this. There's four-player online

37:15

co-op with up to two per console. So

37:20

they really tried to make the multiplayer stuff seamless.

37:23

They did stuff like, you don't bump into each other.

37:26

You know, it's just sort of, you're running around together, but it's

37:28

you're just ghosts basically. The amount

37:30

of times I got pushed into lava in like-

37:32

Right.

37:32

So they tried to just make it like

37:35

literally remove the friction from the multiplayer

37:37

side of it when it comes to online. So

37:40

yeah, I really,

37:42

I asked

37:43

the two developers about the origin

37:45

of this. Like, because

37:48

I was curious, again, we never get to hear

37:51

from Nintendo developers like this. So

37:53

when you're working on

37:55

the next big 2D Mario game,

37:57

like where does the idea come from? Where does

37:59

it start?

37:59

And they talked about how they had

38:02

an idea for the wonder effects

38:04

so that they could maybe just transport

38:06

you somewhere else. And then to Zuka,

38:09

the like super decorated veteran was like, well,

38:12

well, no, that's why would we take you

38:14

somewhere else? That's just that seems

38:16

like we're just kind of taking you to

38:18

another level. Let's have it all on the same

38:20

stage. So transform the whole stage. And

38:23

then he's and then to Zuka, said

38:25

to Maurice on, well, well, we can't just

38:27

do this. The original idea was to was

38:29

to do the wonder effects for a few stages.

38:32

And then to Zuka sounds like, well, no, we got to we

38:35

got to do this on all the stages. And

38:37

so that's how it evolved. And then they

38:40

solicited ideas for wonder effects

38:42

from the development team. And they got back a

38:44

total list of like a thousand plus ideas

38:47

and whittled it down.

38:49

And this thing, yeah, it's to

38:51

me,

38:52

Mario games, both 2D and 3D, meaning

38:55

the mainline ones, which are

38:57

the ones I really love the most. They

39:00

find a way every single time to

39:02

just exude joy. And that's

39:04

what I just

39:06

love the most about Mario games is they're fun

39:09

and they're joyous and they can be challenging

39:11

if you want them to. And wonder

39:13

just seems to be doing that all

39:15

over again in a in a, you

39:17

know, a way that evolves what we've seen before.

39:20

So it's it's awesome

39:22

so far, but there's

39:24

so much more to see than what I saw.

39:27

Oh, yeah. I know we talked a little bit about like

39:29

the online earlier and stuff, but

39:31

like I love that you mentioned

39:34

how they did it goes to kind of remove the friction, because

39:36

I don't think anything would frustrate me

39:38

more in a Mario game than like an Internet connection

39:41

kind of skipping for a second, lagging for a second,

39:43

and that person like bumping me into

39:46

a lava pit or whatever. So I love

39:48

that they're doing goes with that. I think that is the like

39:51

one of the most ideal ways to do a platformer

39:53

with online co-op. So we

39:54

were saying on the reaction

39:56

to the director earlier today that it.

39:59

felt very from soft of them, like between

40:02

the standees and the ghosts and kind of the different

40:04

little like that, like the what was it, Kat, you said

40:06

asynchronous communication. Yes.

40:07

Yeah. I mean, it's not like I'm

40:09

not trying to say and I don't think anybody would

40:12

is interpreting it this way, but it's not like Nintendo's

40:14

inventing this, right? We've seen this before

40:16

going back to like trials HD.

40:19

Oh, yeah. Many years. But but it's it's

40:22

really nicely and

40:23

seamlessly integrated here. Yeah.

40:26

I like.

40:27

Uh, Terry, what thoughts,

40:30

questions. Mario Wonder, you watched the direct

40:32

this morning. Oh, yeah,

40:35

I did. And I'm super excited.

40:37

I like the saying that like

40:40

Super Mario Brothers Ford, I would have been so

40:42

bold and so so cool. But also

40:45

I agree. Like I I can feel this way

40:47

by looking at this. It's such a good iteration

40:49

and everything that they're adding. My only thing

40:51

I raised an eyebrow at was when they

40:54

first mentioned online in the direct. But

40:56

then they started explaining like everything

40:58

that it did. And it was just growing

41:00

on me. And I was like, oh, this is yeah, this is amazing.

41:03

No, I'm just

41:04

way too excited for this. I'm just

41:06

happy our game is out. I'll get to get

41:08

some meaningful play time. You know, I'll be able

41:11

to. Yeah. No, it looks amazing. I

41:13

mean, you have a love for retro

41:16

games and you made a platformer

41:18

in the past. And I'm just wondering what's your

41:20

relationship to

41:21

the Mario games and how do you

41:23

think Mario Wonder compares? Well,

41:27

the main one for me will always be three Super

41:30

Mario Brothers. It's the one. Yeah. And

41:33

I I

41:35

have to beat this game. No

41:37

flute a few times every

41:39

year. It's just I don't know. It's

41:41

kind of a happy place. And

41:43

I still learn new things. I learned

41:46

recently that when with the Tanuki suit,

41:49

when you turn into a statue, did you know that you can kill

41:51

fire with that? Like the flamethrowers

41:54

and the flying ships. I didn't know that. And

41:56

I was like, you get points. I'm like, you know, line

41:58

them up. Can I do the points keeps.

41:59

stacking and it's like, I don't know, this game just

42:02

keeps on giving. No, obviously Mario

42:05

is everything they did, you know, Mario 65.

42:07

I mean, all of them, all the way to Odyssey

42:10

is just, they keep showing us

42:13

the way it seems, right? It kind of has this responsibility

42:16

of like, okay, everyone here's like, we're

42:18

done, you know, reconvening,

42:20

here's the next thing, here's how we

42:22

take things further, here's how we

42:24

stay true to it being in the end, a

42:26

game, right? While also

42:29

bringing new stuff. So no, I'm just, I'm

42:31

just ready to like sit down and be like,

42:34

okay, show me, tell me, I'm ready to take it all

42:36

in. I think that's a big reason why I've personally

42:39

just continued to love the mainline Mario games

42:41

over the years is because every single

42:43

one,

42:44

whether it's 2D or 3D, particularly,

42:46

I mean, more recently, recent years, the 3D

42:49

ones, but they, Mario reinvents

42:51

himself every time. In terms of again,

42:53

the mainline Mario games,

42:55

you know, we got a million Mario spin-offs, but, but

42:58

yeah, and, and Wonder feels like another

43:01

great like next step evolution.

43:03

In fact, I did get to my

43:05

last question, because I probably had an

43:07

hour to an hour and a half's worth of questions prepped

43:09

for Morison and Tazuka-san, but

43:12

I, you know, again, this rare opportunity

43:14

to sit and talk with two

43:17

ultra decorated veteran Nintendo

43:19

developers. So I asked them both, what

43:22

is your favorite 2D

43:24

Mario game of all time? And

43:26

you can't say Wonder, you can't say the one you're working on

43:28

now. And Morison, the director,

43:32

who's a little younger, he's been there since 97. So

43:35

he certainly, he's got a,

43:37

quite a resume himself. He said Super Mario

43:40

Brothers won, like great, full

43:42

respect. But then Tazuka-san, the

43:44

aforementioned OG developer

43:47

of, of the original Super Mario Brothers

43:49

and, and Zelda and Link to the

43:51

Past. And he goes, he

43:53

says right away, no hesitation. He's

43:55

like Super Mario Brothers 3. And

43:58

we had a little like icon.

43:59

Like, yes, I'm

44:02

with you moment. And he goes,

44:04

he said something like, I have it exactly

44:07

written down, which you can all, I guess, read whenever we

44:09

put up the full thing. But he said something like, he's

44:12

like, yeah, we really pushed

44:14

ourselves super hard on that one. Like, he

44:17

clearly had some sort of recollection of

44:20

how tough that game was. All I could say in response,

44:23

I was like, well, just thank you. Because that game's like

44:25

the greatest game of all time. Oh

44:27

man.

44:28

Super Mario Brothers 3. Super Mario Brothers 3, love

44:31

is genuinely warming my heart because

44:33

there's been this movement to people saying, Super

44:36

Mario World is far superior. And I'm like,

44:38

oh, OK. And those people are 100% correct, Kat. That's

44:41

a fine take. But

44:44

all I ask is that Super

44:45

Mario Brothers 3 get the respect

44:47

and love that it deserves because it is a

44:50

truly remarkable game. The

44:52

question that I have with this game,

44:54

and maybe Ryan, you can answer for me with Super

44:56

Mario Wonder, is what's the exploration

44:59

like? Because

45:00

Super Mario Brothers 3, it's really

45:05

remarkable how open-ended the actual

45:07

levels feel, how well they

45:10

incorporate verticality and

45:12

going into the sky versus

45:14

going underground. And I'm wondering

45:16

if Super Mario Wonder, at least in the early stages

45:19

that you got to play, managed to capture some of that

45:21

feeling.

45:22

It's tough to say because

45:25

with one exception, the

45:29

handful of stages I got to play, I only got to play them once.

45:31

Right. I did. The

45:34

stage that I think was in the original

45:36

trailer and may have appeared in the direct today

45:38

as well, I can't quite recall. But the

45:40

Bull Rush stage, where you're jumping

45:42

on the backs of the rushing, they're called Bull

45:45

Rushes, B-U-L-R-U-S-H. And

45:48

you just surf on their backs, basically.

45:51

That one I went back and did a second

45:54

time at the end because I begged Nintendo. I was

45:56

like, I came all the way out

45:58

to New York from San Francisco. I want to

46:00

play more. We had

46:02

a few minutes so that we ran through that stage

46:04

again. But there does

46:06

seem to be some of that, Kat, in the sense of

46:09

the reason I mentioned the bull rush thing is because

46:12

that stage, if you get

46:14

that Wonder

46:15

Flower and

46:18

trigger that bull rush stampede,

46:21

the bull rushes will

46:23

charge through the goal

46:26

pole and knock it down and

46:29

keep the level going until a

46:32

new ending to the level earlier. And then

46:35

when I went back and did it a second time, I

46:37

just went to the regular goal pole.

46:42

But there's definitely, of course,

46:46

there's pipes that will open up secrets. There's

46:49

a lot of hiding in plain sight secrets

46:51

in this that are dependent on

46:53

the different either badges, the

46:56

badge effects, or different

46:58

mushrooms like the drill mushroom

47:00

that gives you the drill bit for a head that we saw

47:03

in the Direct Today where you can burrow

47:05

on the ceiling. Yeah. You just go into

47:07

the ground.

47:07

There's tears of the kingdom. Why not? They're

47:10

the ceiling. And you can work your way and you can go get a

47:12

hidden coin or some other hidden thing. So

47:14

it does seem like that's going to be

47:17

a definite part. I mean, there's a

47:19

good example of it in the footage right now if you're watching us

47:21

on video. But

47:23

yeah, there does seem like there's going to be a good bit of that. But

47:26

I, again, being honest, I didn't

47:28

necessarily see too much of that in

47:30

the early stage stuff I got to play

47:33

since I only got to run each stage once.

47:35

Yeah. Yeah.

47:40

Ryan, I have a question for you. How

47:43

obvious was it to you that there was no

47:45

Charles Martin A involved?

47:47

I have to say, whoever they got

47:50

sounds pretty good to me. I

47:53

don't know.

47:54

I don't like and I'm usually I usually have a pretty good

47:57

ear for that stuff. And I.

48:00

I'm not sure I would have known had they not

48:02

and I'm sure I'm gonna get roasted in the

48:04

comments for this

48:05

No, I mean people were saying that

48:07

they could tell they could tell and then the other half of

48:09

us were like before they announced It we're going stop

48:11

being weird conspiracy nuts about this. It's

48:14

still Martinet and then it wasn't so, you know

48:16

It's like it's it is very close.

48:18

Yeah, I mean Yeah, for

48:20

me. I didn't really

48:22

It didn't really throw

48:24

me off at all. I it was whoever they

48:27

got seems to have

48:29

Nailed it pretty well. Yeah other

48:31

people may feel differently and

48:34

That's fine. I mean, this is their flight is Nintendo's

48:36

flagship. This is this is Nintendo There's

48:39

no Nintendo without Mario So like they're

48:41

gonna they're gonna put the time and resources

48:43

to find the right person to take

48:46

up this mantle Unfortunately, it's not as if in

48:48

the video games Mario's a particularly verbose.

48:51

No I just know you could it's

48:53

easier that even if you have a

48:55

great sound alike, which it I think

48:58

they have

49:00

It's it's not as if

49:02

there's a lot of dialogue to analyze and be

49:04

like, oh no, that's totally not Charles

49:07

Yeah, right. No, it's it's

49:09

If you've got to replace an iconic

49:11

voice actor On

49:14

the grand scale of things is probably one of the

49:16

easier ones to replace in the sense

49:18

that again I'm not trying to be disrespectful Charles, but just

49:20

in the sense that there's not a lot of dialogue

49:23

to have to have to worry about

49:26

Yeah, I I did notice during

49:29

the direct itself that the the little

49:32

flower guys they talk

49:33

Yeah, that's

49:35

one of the fun part

49:37

is it weird so they actually do talk.

49:40

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh my god

49:42

Yeah, they're fun. They have stuff to say on

49:44

like every stage.

49:45

Yeah, I saw people already like Taking

49:48

screencaps of those guys talking and then like

49:50

blanking out the beach bubble and

49:52

then filling it

49:53

to make silly memes

49:57

So like a very very meme-ified

49:59

very meme-able game as Nintendo games

50:02

somehow tend to be. Yeah, right, Nintendo

50:04

trying not to be really hard. They

50:07

keep making silly characters all I love the

50:09

monster design to or the like the

50:11

I love that this

50:14

is in the is in the flower kingdom rather than

50:16

the kingdom. Just for that

50:18

exact reason. Yeah, we get a little, little

50:21

freshening of the environments. It's not the same

50:23

mushroom kingdom type of environments that we're used to

50:25

seeing. And on the enemy

50:27

designs as well. We know Yeah, the the standbys

50:30

are there the goombas are there. The

50:33

Koopas are there but yeah, you get you

50:35

will get some new

50:36

new creatures to face off as

50:39

at face off against as well.

50:42

Like the it was in here. The

50:44

we're not it's not on the screen right now but the mama's

50:47

Yeah, you're the like giant wide

50:50

mouth things that kind of slowly

50:52

walk around. And if you catch their

50:54

attention, they'll

50:56

scurry after you and open their mouths

50:59

cartoonishly huge and

51:01

swallow you. And there was one

51:03

of the last I think it was the last stage I

51:05

got to play. And when

51:07

I was at an intent in New York playing

51:09

it with the Nintendo event,

51:11

which there's footage of it in the

51:13

preview. And again, we may see it here too. But

51:16

the he

51:17

you hit a you hit a wonder effect and your

51:20

trance your you and any co op

51:22

friends with you, you're all transformed

51:24

into goombas. So he can't

51:26

attack. You can't jump. And

51:29

you're just trying that you're sneaking through the level.

51:32

But the mama's are are there.

51:35

You can as the goombas you you go

51:37

behind you automatically go behind

51:39

any bushes or trees. You have to hide

51:41

from them as they

51:43

almost a genre.

51:45

A little bit. Yeah, a little little

51:47

baby self gameplay there. But it's

51:49

just you're it's so adorable when you're a little

51:51

goomba with a Mario hat and then the mama's

51:54

are coming at you and you hide by in the bush and then you you

51:56

keep moving. It's it's just that's the

51:58

kind of stuff that

51:59

just

51:59

brings a smile to my face and I just I

52:02

love

52:02

more than anything.

52:03

It's full of personality. Nintendo

52:06

is all about surprising and delighting. And

52:08

that's something you know. I don't know like there.

52:12

My dream like someday this will

52:14

never happen but I would love to

52:16

just especially since I don't speak Japanese but I

52:19

would be so cool to just embed

52:22

like be a fly on the wall at Nintendo

52:25

for the course of an entire like mainline

52:27

Mario or Zelda project be it 2D or

52:29

3D just just to observe them. Like

52:32

how does the design process work? How like because

52:35

yeah they you know you're hinting

52:37

at it. They really just it's not again

52:39

it's not like they necessarily

52:41

are inventing everything every time

52:44

that other developers haven't done. But just

52:47

their

52:48

their execution on it execution

52:50

and their amalgamation of yeah of

52:52

the ideas always comes out in this uniquely

52:55

Nintendo way in the most awesome

52:58

ways. Yeah

52:59

well friends we're out of time here. No.

53:02

No all right. We're

53:05

going for another five hours. Let's go. You can

53:07

go. Stack time set this up. OK. Yeah

53:11

so we are unfortunately out of time but I'm like

53:13

so stoked to see more of Mario Wonder because

53:16

that's coming out in October. Sea

53:18

of Stars on the other hand is available

53:20

right now on all the platforms

53:23

including Nintendo Switch. So you should totally

53:25

check that out. Before we

53:27

go I do have a couple of favors to ask. If

53:29

you're watching us on YouTube leave

53:31

us a like and a nice comment including comments

53:33

that say nice comment. If you're listening

53:36

to

53:36

us on a podcast app please leave us a

53:38

review. It helps us spread the good NVC word

53:40

and we will be forever in your debt. Thank

53:43

you so much Kat and Jada as always for joining

53:45

me and special thanks to Ryan

53:47

for coming and joining us talk about Mario Wonder and

53:49

Thierry for coming to talk about Sea of Stars. We're

53:52

so glad to have you.

53:53

Thank you. Thank you. And remember

53:55

everybody NVC is the only place where

53:58

you can. Get the thing. The

54:00

thing.