0:04

Hi, welcome to no

0:04

cure for curiosity. I am Shanny

0:07

Luft and this episode is about

0:07

the Netflix show big mouth. Sex

0:11

advice columnist Dan Savage

0:11

called Big mouth. The smartest

0:14

thing that has ever been on

0:14

television about being 12 years

0:17

old. Big mouth was co created by

0:17

Nick Kroll and his interns

0:21

hilarious, sometimes shockingly

0:21

vulgar, and unusually

0:24

sophisticated in the way that it

0:24

explores race, identity, toxic

0:28

masculinity, and sexual

0:28

pleasure, particularly women's

0:31

sexual pleasure. One of the

0:31

fantastical conceits of big

0:34

mouth is that each character is

0:34

assigned a hormone monster.

0:37

These are bizarre creatures that

0:37

constantly appear on the show to

0:41

encourage sexual thoughts and

0:41

behaviors in their teenage

0:44

assignments. The kids have

0:44

complicated feelings about their

0:47

hormone monsters, mirroring the

0:47

complicated feelings that

0:50

teenagers have with their actual

0:50

hormones. Over the course of

0:53

four seasons, big mouth has

0:53

introduced other fantastical

0:56

characters. There is Tito the

0:56

anxiety mosquito voiced by Maria

1:00

Bamford. There's a shame wizard

1:00

who feeds on the kids sense of

1:03

shame. And there's an enormous

1:03

depression Kitty, who sometimes

1:07

sits on top of the kids and

1:07

weighs them down with hopeless

1:10

thoughts. By externalizing all

1:10

these emotions, big mouth allows

1:14

the kids on the show to

1:14

recognize and address their

1:17

hormonal and emotional

1:17

challenges in funny and touching

1:20

ways. It's like a taste of Pixar

1:20

it's inside out mixed with a

1:24

little bit of South Park and

1:24

with a dash of It's a Wonderful

1:27

Life. If you've been watching

1:27

big mouth, I think you'll enjoy

1:30

this conversation. If you've

1:30

never seen the show, it might

1:33

help to watch a few episodes

1:33

first. I also need to say that

1:36

this was the very first episode

1:36

I recorded for nuclear for

1:39

curiosity. I've been learning a

1:39

lot about microphones and audio

1:43

since I recorded this, but I had

1:43

such a great time talking with

1:46

my colleagues. I thought it was

1:46

worth sharing this episode

1:48

despite the audio challenges. So

1:48

I hope you can overlook the

1:52

technical difficulties and enjoy

1:52

this episode. And then come on

1:55

to the Nokia for curiosity

1:55

Facebook page to share your

1:58

thoughts about big mouth and my

1:58

conversation today. Kelly Wilz

2:04

thank you for joining us. Kelly

2:04

is a Professor of Communication

2:07

at UW SP. She teaches courses on

2:07

Women and Gender Studies. And

2:11

Her research focuses on the

2:11

intersection of media gender,

2:14

politics and pop culture. And

2:14

Kelly is the author of the book

2:18

resisting rape culture through

2:18

popular culture sex after me

2:21

too. Thanks, Kelly. Great to be

2:21

here. And my other guest is

2:25

Carrie Elza. Carrie is the

2:25

Associate Professor of Media

2:28

Studies at University of

2:28

Wisconsin Stevens Point, what a

2:31

coincidence, where she teaches

2:31

courses on screenwriting, Film

2:34

and Media analysis, history and

2:34

genre. A Kerry's publications

2:39

include articles and chapters on

2:39

children's and teen media,

2:42

science fiction and fantasy

2:42

series, new media and fandom and

2:46

early animation carry. I feel

2:46

like your entire publication

2:50

list is relevant to this topic

2:50

today. Everything you write

2:53

about seems like it's in big

2:53

mouth or touches on big mouth.

2:58

Except that I I kind

2:58

of although I kind of feel like

3:01

I'm Kelly is better equipped to

3:01

handle the issues that are

3:05

actually covered on this show.

3:05

But I am excited to come at it

3:10

from the angle with which I can

3:10

come at it.

3:13

Yeah, well, so let

3:13

me say I'm the least qualified

3:16

to be talking about this show,

3:16

which is why you're both here.

3:18

So I kind of want to start with

3:18

you. You were the person who

3:22

suggested this topic for a

3:22

podcast. Why did you recommend

3:25

it? What is it about this show that stands out to you.

3:27

So I started watching it not really knowing what it was going to be about. I

3:29

knew it'd be fun. Again, I like

3:32

nickel and dime Laney as well.

3:32

And as I started watching, I

3:35

just kept thinking this is so

3:35

smart. And what I love about it

3:38

a lot is that I like any

3:38

mediated portrayals that talk

3:42

about women's sexuality, women's

3:42

pleasure, because there are just

3:45

so few of them. And so I thought

3:45

that this show does a really

3:49

remarkable job of doing an

3:49

honest portrayal about women's

3:52

pleasure and talking about it in

3:52

a very non judgmental way. I

3:55

think one of the first episodes

3:55

talks about like, This is so

3:58

embarrassing, right? And just

3:58

being honest about that, you

4:01

know, our sex education was

4:01

abysmal. And so we really, it

4:05

was basically like how to use

4:05

tampons and don't have sex mean

4:08

that that was it don't get STDs.

4:08

And so there was no talk about

4:11

sexual orientation or pleasure,

4:11

any of that. So I just kept

4:14

thinking, wow, what if a show

4:14

like this had existed when I was

4:18

younger? Because I feel like it

4:18

just covers so much ground in a

4:22

really thoughtful way. For those

4:22

reasons, amongst many, many

4:26

others. I really appreciate the show.

4:28

Cary, so why were

4:28

you an evangelist for this show?

4:30

I was a huge fan of

4:30

croal show. And it was

4:36

brilliant. It was the most

4:36

incisive takedown of early

4:42

2010s. And you know, just 2000s

4:42

on reality television culture

4:48

that I had ever seen. But I

4:48

think that my I was thinking

4:50

about this. And I think my very

4:50

favorite part of this show and I

4:54

think that just keeps me just

4:54

interested in it and feeling

4:57

like it's valuable is the

4:57

persona allocation of abstract

5:01

concepts to the fact that we

5:01

have the hormone monsters and

5:06

the fact that we've got like

5:06

Tito, the anxiety mosquito, and

5:10

I am sure we can get into all

5:10

these characters. But boy, that

5:13

would have been awfully helpful

5:13

as a team, like the depression,

5:18

Kitty, wow, that would have been

5:18

a very helpful concept for me to

5:22

internalize or rather

5:22

externalize, you know, to think

5:25

of this kind of this kind of

5:25

entity is external that you can

5:30

address and talk to and say like

5:30

depression kiddie, like not now,

5:34

I know you're awfully seductive,

5:34

but please leave me alone. I

5:38

have things to do. So I think

5:38

that that is one of the most

5:42

useful things that interventions

5:42

on this show. And I honestly,

5:46

like how could they have done it

5:46

in such an honest way without

5:49

those characters were so so

5:49

powerful in your preteen, and

5:53

teen years.

5:54

And I'm fascinated

5:54

by the relationship each kid has

5:58

with their monsters, right? The

5:58

monsters sometimes encourage

6:02

them in ways that are helpful,

6:02

you might encourage them to be

6:05

brave, the monsters were on

6:05

their side. Sometimes the

6:08

monsters also tell them

6:08

disgusting, embarrassing things.

6:12

Sometimes the hormone monsters,

6:12

tell them the wrong thing to do,

6:15

or kind of it'll, it'll embed

6:15

ideas in their heads that are

6:18

terrible. And the kids kind of

6:18

aren't sure whether they should

6:22

do it or not. And so I love the

6:22

fact that the kids can argue

6:25

with their monster, they have a

6:25

relationship with their own

6:27

hormones. That to me is really

6:27

fascinating and subtle and

6:30

nuanced. And one of the ways I

6:30

think the show really works.

6:33

What do you think? Do you have a favorite one of those personified emotions?

6:37

I love Connie, who

6:37

Maya Rudolph. Yeah, I think she

6:42

got an Emmy for that, actually,

6:42

for her voicing of Connie. So

6:47

Connie is a hormone monster of

6:47

Jessie and I love the

6:51

relationship between Jessie and

6:51

Connie. Like so. Connie's like,

6:55

tell, tell your mother to eff

6:55

off and call her by her first

7:00

name and but but I'm not maybe

7:00

identifying so strongly with

7:04

Connie the hormone monster first

7:04

of all my mother's name is

7:07

Connie just for the record. But

7:07

secondly, because you'd like

7:12

that feeling of having having

7:12

like a voice in your head, your

7:16

roots your mother. And there's

7:16

other moments too, but I

7:21

absolutely love her portrayal.

7:21

Maya Rudolph's voice is just

7:26

she's both sultry and she's

7:26

she's forceful and I I just I

7:32

love her so much.

7:35

What are you? I am

7:35

the hormone monster. You're here

7:41

to tell me how terrible being a

7:41

woman is the Statue of Liberty

7:44

and my mom already covered that.

7:44

The French are full of shit and

7:46

your mother's a woman in

7:46

decline, and you're on the rise,

7:49

girl. I am? But you'll have to make

7:50

some

7:52

But I also wanted to

7:52

mention the relationship between

7:55

Tito the anxiety mosquito and

7:55

depression kitty is one of the

7:59

most clever things of this last

7:59

season. Kelly, you you look like

8:02

you were about to did I just

8:02

step on your line?

8:06

No, I so I one of the things I've been

8:07

in therapy for ever, because I

8:10

think it's really important and

8:10

really healthy. And so one of

8:12

the things that my counselor said I always remember is anxiety lies. And so I think

8:14

it's so smart the way that

8:17

anxiety mosquito tells these

8:17

lies we the first week we meet

8:21

them as during when Nick is in

8:21

summer camp, right? And so he

8:24

goes out in the woods and he's having a panic attack and the entire time the anxiety mosquito

8:26

is telling him things that are

8:29

not true, right. But like here,

8:29

here's here's all the things you

8:32

should worry about. And Aren't

8:32

you worried about this? And so I

8:34

think it's just so so so smart.

8:34

The right the way they talk

8:38

about mental health in this

8:38

again, and not a judgmental way

8:42

but in a way is like this is

8:42

this is how it works. This is

8:44

how it works when it's working

8:44

with your brain. I will say I

8:47

love that. I also love that

8:47

Jessie's vulva is personified by

8:52

Kristen Wiig. And so and also in

8:52

a way that's just so joyful. And

8:57

so again, like not being afraid

8:57

of your genitals right and

9:01

having a positive for women

9:01

especially to not see your

9:05

genitals as dirty and polluting.

9:05

And as something to be afraid

9:09

of.

9:11

Hello. Hey, girl. Hey.

9:11

Oh my god. I have been dying to

9:15

meet you. Oh, cool. Okay, hi,

9:15

I'm Jessie. Well, I'm your

9:19

general. Well,

9:27

we're having fun.

9:27

It's fun to say you are not what

9:31

I was expecting. Do you want the

9:31

grand tour? Oh, yes, please.

9:34

Great. Okay.

9:35

That is just

9:35

groundbreaking. And it sounds so

9:38

silly to have Kristen would be

9:38

saying someone's vulva, but it

9:42

is and and when they're talking

9:42

about masturbation or talking

9:45

about their periods and, and,

9:45

and how scary it is to put in a

9:48

tampon for the first time, right

9:48

and all these things that are

9:50

just terrifying, and be able to

9:50

talk through somebody who loves

9:55

you and wants the best for you.

9:55

I think that's maybe one of the

9:58

smartest sort of entities In

9:58

this show, and I love every

10:02

minute of it.

10:03

That was a fantastic

10:03

part of season four and I just

10:06

identified very strongly, but I

10:06

also love that the tampons

10:09

themselves Hi boys,

10:11

taking the scariness

10:11

out of menstruation, but not the

10:13

total embarrassment about it

10:13

right? Because again, like

10:16

Jesse's pads soaks up the lake,

10:16

right? And so it's this horrible

10:20

sort of, oh my gosh, can I go on

10:20

the water right now, all these

10:23

things that as a young woman,

10:23

you're just like, Oh, my gosh,

10:25

this is awful. This is the

10:25

worst. But also, it's natural

10:29

and normal. And so again, just

10:29

just normalizing it and

10:32

normalizing so much of it. I

10:32

that's what I love about the

10:34

show in general.

10:35

It doesn't there's no

10:35

pain, right? So it's not

10:38

necessarily associated with

10:38

like, something that's wrong,

10:42

really. It's just something that

10:42

happens and something that you

10:46

have to learn how to deal with

10:46

and and the whole same with the

10:50

tampon I just identified so

10:50

strongly with, like a 13 year

10:54

old girl, that, again, wish that

10:54

I had that, like I wish that

10:59

somebody had showed me that

10:59

episode, I think that it would

11:02

have helped my mental health.

11:03

When I love the fact that when Jesse gets her first periods, Andrew that helps her

11:05

right, she's white, because she

11:08

has white shorts on because

11:08

that's every girl's nightmare is

11:11

getting your period with white

11:11

shorts for the first time. And

11:14

so they play on that. But it's

11:14

so loving, right, the way that

11:18

Andrew helps her and takes care

11:18

of her and is also openly

11:21

disgusted. When she talks about

11:21

it. He vomits right in the

11:24

bathroom, when she's saying she,

11:24

she got her period. And so

11:28

talking about how uncomfortable

11:28

that is. But at the end of the

11:31

day, again, it's her it's her

11:31

friend who is a dude who helps

11:34

her out and they move forward.

11:34

Right. And it's just a really,

11:37

really sweet moment.

11:38

One of the things about the show, I find interesting that even though the

11:40

creators of the show are roughly

11:43

my age, mid 40s, they are also

11:43

producing a show that seems very

11:47

resonant for where we are right

11:47

now. That's really interesting

11:50

to me the way the show, I think

11:50

started off being, you know, 40

11:54

year old white guys who were

11:54

reflecting on their own

11:57

childhood. And then I what I

11:57

read about the show is that the

12:00

writing room got more diverse.

12:00

And as it got more diverse,

12:03

people started bringing in a lot more different kinds of experiences.

12:06

I really watched a

12:06

few episodes for this. And one

12:09

of the ones that I did rewatch

12:09

was girls are corny to the

12:14

storyline about wanting to go to

12:14

Victoria's Secret to buy like a

12:18

fancy bra. Because the fancy bra

12:18

is going to fix everything about

12:23

your body image. Oh, yeah, I

12:23

100% did that like talking to my

12:28

mother and to buy me like a

12:28

fancy bra? Is that kid? Yeah, it

12:32

was it didn't fix anything. And

12:32

then of course, like once you

12:34

wear it, you feel really

12:34

uncomfortable. So that Oh, that

12:38

resonated with me big time. But

12:38

what resonated with me even more

12:42

is the book. Do you all

12:42

remember? Oh, is it called

12:46

there's a book that everybody

12:46

reads in that episode starring

12:50

Fatima and Gustavo, oh, I forget

12:50

the title of it. But that book,

12:55

which is it's a romance novel,

12:55

right, it makes the rounds of

12:58

everybody. Everybody wants to

12:58

read it. And everybody's kind of

13:02

on the same page. They're like

13:02

kind of reading it out in the

13:05

open, but they're all looking at

13:05

each other because they know

13:08

that they're, they're all

13:08

reading a romance novel. And my

13:12

friends, and I absolutely did

13:12

that in middle school, we would

13:16

go to the public library, which

13:16

was right around the corner from

13:20

the middle school. And we would

13:20

take out romance novels. And

13:23

this is like when I'm like

13:23

11 1213. And I would take I

13:27

would check them out under my

13:27

own library card. And then I

13:30

would take them home. And I

13:30

would read romance novels.

13:33

Because that is, of course,

13:33

that's how I perform all of my

13:36

incredibly unrealistic

13:36

expectations about sex and

13:40

romance. So it was not good.

13:40

Like that was not good. But that

13:43

is a very incisive commentary on

13:43

how girls start to get

13:49

socialized into certain, you

13:49

know, certain definitions of

13:52

sexuality versus how boys do.

13:52

And of course, this show deals

13:57

with internet pornography in a

13:57

lot of interesting ways, too.

14:00

But that episode, I really

14:00

really appreciated that episode

14:05

for that detail about how many

14:05

women are introduced to certain

14:10

sets of ideas.

14:12

The fact that the

14:12

show is portraying middle school

14:14

kids talking about their bodies

14:14

and sexuality and puberty is

14:20

unlike anything I've ever seen.

14:20

When the episodes I appreciate

14:23

is the one that talks about

14:23

Missy masturbating with her glow

14:26

worm that she takes to like the

14:26

school sleepover. And the idea

14:30

that she's been doing this since

14:30

she was a baby right, since she

14:32

had an enemy know that little

14:32

kids do masturbate, like,

14:35

nothing's gonna happen. But they

14:35

know what feels good, right? We

14:38

just don't talk about it because

14:38

we want to assume that children

14:41

are just sexless and don't don't

14:41

don't know about pleasure, even

14:46

though they absolutely do. And

14:46

so the fact that teens are

14:49

talking about this, and

14:49

sometimes getting the

14:51

terminology wrong, right, but

14:51

that they have these feelings, I

14:55

think is really important to

14:55

acknowledge that yeah and Middle

14:58

School. We are all raging

14:58

hormones, and no one wants to

15:02

acknowledge it because they just

15:02

want to assume that that we're

15:05

not really feeling that way.

15:07

We have so much

15:07

importance placed on the concept

15:10

of childhood innocence in our

15:10

culture, that anything that kind

15:14

of that kind of pops that that

15:14

idealized bubble is, is

15:21

something that is even seen as a

15:21

danger. My favorite storyline,

15:25

this past summit there this past

15:25

season was absolutely the Lola

15:29

and j storyline, which I thought

15:29

was, of course, incredibly

15:34

vulgar, but also incredibly

15:34

sweet. Just utterly affecting

15:39

that these these two people who

15:39

who are, you know, compensated

15:42

for home lives that are very

15:42

deficient, have just found each

15:48

other and support each other.

15:48

And I was actually genuinely

15:51

sad. At the end of the season. I

15:51

was like, No, but you know,

15:56

conflict must ensue. The story

15:56

must go on. So you can't have

15:59

people being happy forever. But

15:59

I thought that their story of

16:04

the duck with the whole

16:04

storyline with the the pool that

16:08

they dug in the backyard like

16:08

the mud pit that they imagined

16:12

was their own kingdom was just

16:12

absolutely the sweetest thing

16:15

I'd ever seen.

16:17

Do you remember the

16:17

first storyline with Jay he was

16:20

having a sexual relationship

16:20

with a pillow? It was I think a

16:23

female pillow. Then he meets

16:23

another pillow who's a boy who's

16:28

male. And now Jay is exploring

16:28

his sexual identity with which

16:32

pillow is he going to be with

16:32

and the pillow start fighting

16:35

with each other? That it's it's

16:35

so weird, right? It's like so

16:39

it's it's like kind of

16:39

ridiculous and bizarre and

16:43

embarrassing. And then at the same time, it's

16:45

exploring something

16:45

really substantial. And they

16:48

have that sort of commentary

16:48

aware again, Ellie's character

16:51

who was this pansexual character

16:51

is seen as sexy and cool, right?

16:54

Because she because she likes

16:54

boys and girls and who and

16:57

whoever else right? But Jays

16:57

character they actually sort of

17:00

like put him down. And when he

17:00

tries to say what I'm like

17:03

Allie, too, I don't know what I

17:03

am. Right. And so it and again,

17:07

it says this commentary and as a

17:07

country, we are far more

17:10

accepting of bisexual women than

17:10

we are bisexual men, right? We

17:13

just we assume Oh, they're just

17:13

really gay. They're hiding it.

17:16

Right? It's because pornography

17:16

openly portrays women who are

17:18

making out each other all the time even though they're probably not actually gay or

17:20

bisexual. But again, like that's

17:24

a smart commentary to have right

17:24

that I again don't see anywhere

17:27

else either.

17:28

So what I was

17:28

asking you earlier about just

17:31

specific episodes stood out to

17:31

you Kelly, you mentioned the

17:33

episode disclosure. That is an

17:33

episode in which the school the

17:37

the the teacher who puts on the

17:37

school play, decides to do a

17:42

musical version of a movie I had

17:42

forgotten ever existed. The

17:47

movie called disclosure with

17:47

Michael Douglas and who was the

17:50

female

17:51

Demi Moore, right?

17:51

Because the whole premise is

17:53

Demi Moore is the boss right?

17:53

And she and she sexually

17:56

harasses Michael Douglas just

17:56

like men sexually harass women

18:00

that was seen as like equality.

18:00

It was such a crap take like, if

18:04

we allow sexual harassment laws

18:04

to happen, then then women are

18:07

going to treat men just like men

18:07

treat women for aeons. Right.

18:10

And it was it was a really

18:10

thoughtless take. It was a

18:13

really, really not well done

18:13

movie, the politics were awful.

18:17

And so again, as this show does

18:17

a really smart commentary on a

18:21

lot of aspects of me too. I love

18:21

that the fact they made this

18:25

musical because it is so random,

18:25

because it is such an obscure

18:28

random movie that most people

18:28

probably either have never seen

18:30

or have totally forgotten about

18:30

it to comment on where mi two is

18:34

right now. Right, which is one

18:34

of the reasons I just I love it

18:36

a lot. So for those who haven't

18:36

seen the episode, Mr. lizer is

18:40

the one who was the director of

18:40

the play and he also has like

18:43

really shitty me to takes as

18:43

well and, and comments about

18:47

those a lot. And so one thing

18:47

that happens is that he hires

18:50

Lola to be the stage manager,

18:50

and ends up asking her to give

18:54

him foot rubs, and it's really

18:54

inappropriate. And he kind of

18:57

turns it on her and makes it

18:57

seem like as though she was

18:59

making him do it right. And so

18:59

all of like, the really, really

19:03

horrible like, it's a scary time

19:03

for boys kinds of commentary is

19:07

really woven throughout this

19:07

episode in a really smart way

19:09

that really critiques those

19:09

those comments and challenges

19:12

those comments. And one of the

19:12

things I read a really

19:14

interesting article about this

19:14

is how Nick's characters were

19:17

interesting in this too, in

19:17

terms of how he wants to

19:19

understand me too, as well and

19:19

human Jesse have a lot of like

19:23

hundreds of thoughtful

19:23

conversations about how Nick

19:25

wants to be an ally right to his

19:25

friends, and doesn't know how

19:30

and how many men I wish could

19:30

have these honest conversations

19:33

about like, but I thought you

19:33

want to dress like a slob, but I

19:36

don't want to objectify you I

19:36

don't get it right. I don't get

19:38

it and to be able to ask the

19:38

quote unquote dumb questions, I

19:41

think is really part of this

19:41

process. We need to give people

19:44

the space to ask those

19:44

questions, because we're not

19:47

always going to get it right.

19:47

And so there are just many

19:49

things about this episode that I really love.

19:51

There's that one

19:51

moment in it was I think it's it

19:55

might be another episode but

19:55

where they're like yelling at

19:58

each other and you're like, I

19:58

guess we need to have these

20:01

difficult conversations? Yes, I

20:01

guess we do. Are we having the

20:05

conversation right now? Yes, the

20:05

conversation. But that idea of

20:10

it being a process, right, like

20:10

we have to keep having

20:13

conversations that are

20:13

difficult. Yeah. over and over

20:16

and over again. Yeah, that was,

20:16

that's a really smart part of

20:21

the show.

20:22

Another episode from Season Four Kelly, I wouldn't ask you about is the

20:24

code switching episode?

20:26

Those who haven't

20:26

seen it? It's it's basically

20:29

Missy, has she in a different

20:29

episode, I think it's not this

20:33

episode, she visits her black

20:33

cousins in Atlanta, I believe,

20:36

kind of make fun of her for how

20:36

quote unquote, white she is in

20:39

terms of the way she talks and

20:39

the way she is. And so she, they

20:42

end up being in New York. And I

20:42

think one of them is in college,

20:45

and they have a college party.

20:45

And so she somehow gets talking

20:48

to the divine. And he has this

20:48

musical number about code

20:51

switching. And she has no idea

20:51

what he's talking about, right.

20:54

And so in this musical number, he talks about the different ways in which he changes how he

20:56

speaks, depending on who he is

20:59

with, right, so if he's around

20:59

white people, for example, His

21:03

goal is to make them feel safe,

21:03

right. So he'll act in a very

21:06

different way, in a very

21:06

different mannerisms, to make

21:08

sure that he has the right tone

21:08

of voice to make sure that they

21:10

don't think that he's a threat,

21:10

right, because as as black men

21:13

in the US, like, we perceive

21:13

black men as threatening,

21:16

because that's how we have been

21:16

socially conditioned to see them

21:18

through through most mediated

21:18

portrayals of them. And then he

21:21

talks about the ways he talks

21:21

differently when he's amongst

21:24

older, older black men. When he

21:24

talks to to his friends, let me

21:28

break

21:28

it down for you. As a

21:28

black kid, you got to learn this

21:32

handy trick called social self

21:32

defense, you switch up yo speak

21:36

and give your manhood tweaked

21:36

pan and nonionic Will Smith

21:41

winning a cool like DD or

21:41

appical as you please. Because

21:45

when you're young and black, you

21:45

develop a knack for fun The

21:48

world is called cause.

21:53

And so they go to

21:53

this sort of this college party,

21:57

and it's much different from

21:57

what he's imagining, right?

21:59

Because he's telling Missy, it's

21:59

gonna be Jay Jay Z and hot tubs

22:02

and things like that. And it's

22:02

not that at all right, it's a

22:05

very sort of thoughtful

22:05

conversation. And, and sort of

22:07

two of the characters I think Mrs. Cousin and one of her friends talk about code

22:09

switching, and so not even

22:12

labeling it writes, The episode

22:12

talks about what it is and

22:16

defines it, but then has two

22:16

characters that go back and

22:19

forth about the usefulness of

22:19

it, right. So if we are code

22:21

switching to make white people

22:21

feel better, is that just

22:25

reinforcing white supremacy,

22:25

right? Should we not be doing

22:28

this are we are we kind of, you

22:28

know, buying into this, I would

22:32

love to know who the audience is

22:32

who's watching this show, right?

22:35

I don't know how many non white

22:35

people are watching the show on

22:38

and consuming the show, because it does have a lot of white characters. And so again, I

22:40

really appreciate it for for

22:43

even going so far as to

22:43

hopefully informing its white

22:45

audience about this thing that

22:45

happens that you never have to

22:48

deal with. For that reason. I

22:48

appreciate it a lot.

22:51

I was just gonna say

22:51

and I love to that that this

22:54

consideration of code switching

22:54

ties into the shifts that

22:57

happens in Missy later, right.

22:57

So not only does she like give

23:00

up her overalls, and you know,

23:00

she has braids now and she she

23:04

changes her clothes a little

23:04

bit. But then in the the horror

23:07

episode, the horror already

23:07

episode. She's in a hall of

23:11

mirrors, right? And she's

23:11

confronting all of these parts

23:13

of herself, like the part of

23:13

herself that loves Nathan

23:16

Fillion, and like pretends to be

23:16

on a sci fi ship. But so so

23:20

she's, she's, she's confronting

23:20

all of these different versions

23:23

of herself and coming to this

23:23

understanding that all of those

23:26

are her. And so it is something

23:26

that everybody goes through,

23:30

right, but it's filtered through

23:30

her specific experience, and it

23:34

builds upon all the ideas in

23:34

that episode.

23:37

Okay, so I have an

23:37

18 year old son, and a 14 year

23:41

old daughter, I have both I

23:41

thought a lot about whether or

23:44

not I would want my kids to

23:44

watch the show whether to watch

23:47

it with them. And also is what I

23:47

encourage middle school kids to

23:51

watch it, would you let your

23:51

kids watch this? Okay, so

23:54

I say this is the

23:54

parent of very young children.

23:58

So I don't know what it's like

23:58

to have an adolescent child.

24:03

Yes. So I would like to think

24:03

because I think over and over

24:07

again, how helpful I would have

24:07

found this show is like a 13

24:11

year old, like, oh, and and i

24:11

and i would like to think that I

24:19

will encourage them to watch the

24:19

show. So I so on the one hand, I

24:24

think that on the other hand, I

24:24

wonder like, by the time that

24:28

I'm actually dealing with

24:28

adolescent kids, will this show

24:34

be just so teen that they like

24:34

or not even interested in? Like,

24:39

I just I don't know what the

24:39

media landscape is going to look

24:41

like in 10 years. Honestly, in

24:41

short, I think it is. I think

24:45

that it would be a great show

24:45

for kids to watch. But a a do

24:49

not want to watch it with them.

24:49

And be I'm not sure what the

24:53

best way to present it as a

24:53

useful text or go to text would

24:58

be

24:59

but I don't have Kids and so I don't know what it's like to watch things like

25:01

this with your kids. But I think

25:04

like Carrie said, the messages

25:04

are just so important. And

25:08

because we have so few of these

25:08

options like, like, other than

25:11

this show, I can't think of

25:11

anything else that maybe even

25:13

addresses toxic masculinity in

25:13

such a smart way, right? Or

25:17

these other sorts of or, or

25:17

mental health or all the things

25:20

are women's pleasure, right?

25:20

Like it just does such a top

25:23

notch job about all these

25:23

issues. I care about

25:26

indigestible, like 30 minute

25:26

segments, right? And so it's so

25:29

also it's not asking them to

25:29

listen to a two hour podcast,

25:33

but just like, Hey, this is a

25:33

really entertaining show, and

25:35

you're gonna learn something really valuable from it.

25:37

So I wonder whether

25:37

the target audience for this or

25:41

like, the effective audience for

25:41

this is not kids at all. And in

25:45

fact that this show is exactly

25:45

for people our age, who have to

25:51

have to, I don't know, get used

25:51

to a new normal or get used to

25:58

understanding life and identity

25:58

in different ways. And it kind

26:02

of just, I don't know, maybe,

26:02

maybe it's for people in the 35

26:08

to 50 something demographic, I

26:08

don't know. But I think that's

26:11

an interesting idea that maybe

26:11

kids don't show me just like, we

26:15

need this show. And it's also

26:17

I mean, again,

26:17

there's, there's a little bit of

26:19

like, frat boy esque type of

26:19

culture in terms of the comedy

26:23

and I love that they use that to

26:23

like lure you in, but then like,

26:25

but here's this really

26:25

progressive messaging, we're

26:28

gonna like, make digestible,

26:28

which is really kind of

26:30

brilliant, right? So you get

26:30

people who may want to watch it

26:33

for South Park or family guy,

26:33

but then it come away being

26:36

like, oh, but now I know what code switching is.

26:37

Yeah. Nicola john

26:37

Delaney are like the Trojan

26:40

horse. Right? They're the white

26:40

guys who then have smuggle in

26:47

this really complex show about

26:47

cultural identity and diversity.

26:50

Right? We're gonna teach about feminism through masturbation jokes, right? Like,

26:54

oh my god, the

26:54

bodily fluids on the show. I

26:56

have a hard time watching the

26:56

show over dinner. Now out of

27:00

focus on diarrhea and blood and

27:00

semen. It's like,

27:06

doesn't Andrew give

27:06

birth to, like in in the like

27:10

forest and camp like he gives

27:10

birth to a turd, right? Like

27:13

that happens?

27:14

Oh, that was

27:14

beautiful. I didn't think that

27:17

they could have reconciled re,

27:17

like, reconciled that friendship

27:20

in any other way. I thought that

27:20

was just the most beautiful.

27:23

Yes, Andrew

27:24

is. Yes, he's he

27:24

hasn't pooped like an entire

27:27

summer. And so he is having

27:27

arguments with a poop that won't

27:31

come out of his butt. And I was

27:31

watching that my heart kind of

27:34

sank a little bit. And I

27:34

thought, This is what I'm gonna

27:36

have to talk about with my

27:36

colleagues at work shows

27:39

bizarre. And then to my

27:39

amazement, the show then turns

27:43

that into IE, there's a way to

27:43

describe it, you would have to

27:46

watch it to understand this

27:46

really sweet moment where, where

27:50

Nick and john bellinis character

27:50

reconcile their relationship

27:54

over Yes, john Delaney giving

27:54

birth to a poor baby. I can't

27:58

even believe I'm saying those

27:58

words. It sounds so insane.

28:02

It sounds so dumb.

28:02

And it's not I want people to

28:05

like give it a season. Like you

28:05

may think this is too much. But

28:09

just please give it time.

28:09

Because it you will be surprised

28:12

and shocked. And it'll be

28:12

heartening. And he will adore

28:15

it.

28:16

I found the show

28:16

fascinating and hilarious. But I

28:19

scratched my head at it and have

28:19

all kinds of questions about it.

28:21

And talking to you both has been

28:21

really helpful

28:23

when I really get

28:23

like nerd out about shows with

28:26

other people who are

28:26

professional nerds like I am.

28:29

And so I so appreciate. I wish

28:29

the audience again could see how

28:32

much I'm nodding like my head

28:32

hurts from nodding. Because both

28:35

of you are so smart and have

28:35

made such like thoughtful

28:38

comments. Do you have any other

28:38

recommendations like what our

28:41

show is that everyone should be

28:41

watching right now if they want

28:44

to be better or smarter on

28:44

gender or race or things like

28:47

what have you just loved a bit

28:47

consuming? Maybe over the past

28:50

year during pandemic world or

28:50

even Previous to that.

28:53

I know Washington was

28:53

really really good. Like if you

28:56

haven't watched watchmen,

28:56

watchmen was great.

28:59

In addition to watchmen, there was another show on HBO called Lovecraft country.

29:02

Yes, yes. That is another show

29:06

that Yeah, I was fascinated and

29:06

amazed at how it dealt with,

29:11

again, this kind of fantastical

29:11

monster world, but then use that

29:15

to explore race in America in

29:15

the 1960s. In really clever

29:19

ways. Yeah, absolutely. Have

29:19

either of you thought of another

29:22

one, but go ahead. Oh, I was

29:22

gonna say Penn 1515.

29:27

That's exactly what

29:27

I've not seen this yet. So I

29:31

will I will put this on my list.

29:32

Yeah, if you're interested in really good shows about dealing with middle

29:34

school, done by really smart,

29:37

contemporary comedians. I think

29:37

that's that one's perfect.

29:40

I mean, I wonder why this is also why we're seeing this kind of renaissance in the

29:42

depiction of middle school, the

29:45

kind of the kind of honest

29:45

depiction of middle schools

29:47

because Middle School is

29:47

changing. You know, middle

29:50

school is more difficult and it

29:50

was always full of conflict, but

29:54

the conflicts are, have the

29:54

potential to affect you for the

29:58

rest of your life. Now

30:00

It's been fantastic

30:00

to talk to you both. I really

30:02

appreciate it. You've helped me

30:02

see the show better. And that's

30:05

I feel like there's all we can

30:05

ask for is if you can learn

30:07

something that helps you see art

30:07

in a more sophisticated way.

30:10

That's I think some of the best

30:10

things in education can do.

30:12

Yeah.

30:13

lucky to work with

30:13

both of you. I this is lovely.

30:20

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