0:08

Hi, I'm Mia Friedman and welcome

0:10

to a very special episode off No philtre

0:13

a podcast. Siri's were I checked interesting

0:15

people about their careers, their families

0:17

and their lives. It's an open,

0:19

honest one on one conversation that

0:22

has zero philtre a lot like

0:24

my mouth Thiss week on the

0:26

podcast. I speak to Lisa Wilkinson, co

0:28

host of The Today Show, one of Australia's

0:30

most respected journalists and my

0:32

Dear Friend, a 21. Lisa

0:35

became the youngest ever editor of Dolly magazine

0:37

and went on to edit Cleo on Become

0:39

its international editor in chief before moving

0:42

into television on No Philtre.

0:44

I chat to her about two AM starts the

0:46

changing nature of women's magazines in Australia

0:49

on the hardest part about interviewing

0:51

the prime minister. Please,

0:55

I would describe us as refugees from

0:57

magazines in

0:59

terms of we were very happy in our homelands

1:01

once. Then we set

1:03

sail, I think, probably clear on

1:05

Dolly will close in the next couple of years, and

1:08

I don't say that to be a smart ass or anything.

1:10

I just think that print is in a really difficult time, particularly

1:12

print for young women. Here's the new

1:14

F issue of Cleo and makes you

1:16

feel old when you don't even know who's on the cover. Who

1:19

is that? I don't know.

1:21

I don't know. But I don't know what they're going through a phase

1:23

at the moment off doing models or

1:26

she supermodel.

1:27

I don't really think I don't

1:29

know. I don't know what what

1:31

I will. You will not get me. I know you're

1:33

not trying to do that, but you will not get me

1:36

bagging this publication only

1:38

because this publication

1:41

was so crucial to

1:43

the emancipation of Australian women. It

1:45

was such a significant publication

1:48

when it came out in 1972. I mean, we

1:50

are talking really about the only form

1:53

ofthe heaviest media

1:54

for women in this country that

1:57

talked everything from women's

2:00

political rights to their

2:02

rights in the home, too. The

2:04

fact that they should go out there and

2:06

be everything that they want to be in recession,

2:09

do what they want t be their

2:11

own person. And so to have edited

2:13

that magazine for 10 years between

2:16

85 95

2:19

is one of my greatest

2:21

moments off pride professionally

2:24

because it it was a magazine,

2:27

a publication of form of media in this country

2:30

that was an agent for change.

2:32

And to have been part of that process is

2:34

an incredible thing. And also

2:36

to have worked with so many incredibly

2:39

talented women such as

2:41

yourself, who were

2:44

good times. There were great times and,

2:46

you know, it's still it's still

2:48

something that puts a smile

2:51

on my face. So if and

2:53

when that magazine closes and Dolly

2:55

as well, because that was where I got my start

2:57

in the media. It will be a

2:59

really, really sad

3:01

day you've got. It will be a really sad

3:03

day and maybe it will never come. You've

3:05

got a teenage daughter now. What

3:08

does she look at?

3:10

It's funny, isn't it? She didn't read Dolly.

3:13

I think she sort of came across it in

3:16

passing. Where's for May and possibly

3:18

for you. It was my Bible. It

3:20

was lifeline. It was

3:22

everything I knew which day it was coming

3:24

out. I knew what time it was going to land at

3:26

the newsagent, and I

3:29

thumbed through that magazine.

3:31

I I bled for that magazine

3:33

every month, and I still have every

3:36

single copy I ever bought,

3:38

and I can pick an issue up and I could

3:40

remember how old I wass. I remember the things

3:42

that resin and those covers. I remember

3:44

the clothes that I was desperate to,

3:46

hopefully one day where you

3:49

know, it was all about having

3:53

something that you could really trust

3:55

is a teenager that was that

3:58

was your confidante and was even

4:00

a better friend than maybe best

4:01

friend. So, do you think Facebook's that now

4:03

for teenage girls?

4:05

Look, I'm not on Facebook

4:07

or of a that for each other, like

4:09

just because they could be connected 24 7.

4:11

What I do know is that

4:14

the sort of places

4:16

of refuge that existed

4:20

when I was a teenager don't

4:22

exist with the same power

4:25

that that they that

4:27

they do now. Sorry that they did. Then

4:31

Look, I'm just I'm very aware having

4:34

having three kids, the

4:36

last of whom is our daughter, Billie, who's 17,

4:39

having been a TTE, the forefront ofthe

4:42

bringing up Children who are going

4:44

through the Internet explosion

4:46

and the Facebook explosion and

4:48

the influences of social media. It

4:51

was a real learning curve for May, and everyone

4:54

who was doing it at the same time and

4:57

I think we've made a few mistakes along the way.

4:59

I think way thought

5:01

when our kids said to us, You know,

5:03

I'll just be in my room doing my math work

5:05

because school says that I have to have access

5:07

to the Internet in order. Teo,

5:12

The truth is, if you put

5:15

your teenage child and younger

5:18

because I mean we see babies in cafes

5:20

on ipads for hours

5:22

at a time, being entertained. If

5:25

you make your child from a very young age

5:28

so dependent on screen

5:30

entertainment, you are really

5:32

setting yourself up for a fall. And this is a

5:34

social entertainment.

5:37

What you do,

5:40

we're not holding your phone now. Are you removed

5:42

from your phone or do you live by the screen?

5:45

Well,

5:45

well, phone is now a

5:48

ll communication with work, communication

5:51

with the kids and all of that. It's But there's

5:53

a difference between just living a 21st

5:55

century life that you can get through

5:57

if if you're a busy parent,

6:00

a busy professional, there's

6:02

a difference between being practical

6:05

and being completely dependent on

6:08

DH. I try and be independent. I don't

6:10

always succeed because it is. It

6:13

is very compelling. I mean, you can waste hours

6:15

on YouTube beacon, waste hours, Converse

6:18

ing on Twitter, and you can do all of that.

6:20

Fortunately, I didn't get the Facebook addiction.

6:22

I think that's possibly a case

6:25

of self preservation. And also,

6:27

you know, Australia gets 3.5

6:29

hours of me every day. I don't think

6:31

they need Mohr of me on

6:33

Facebook, but it

6:36

sze bean. A huge

6:38

learning curve is apparent to take

6:41

three kids through that,

6:43

but my caution retail to

6:45

other parents. I don't judge other parents. It's

6:47

their call how they want to bring up their kids in the

6:49

21st century. But

6:52

if you allow your child tohave

6:55

a computer in their bedroom with the door closed

6:57

and you're not and you're

7:00

not monitoring that you are basically

7:02

allowing the world outside to dig

7:04

a hole into your child's bedroom. And

7:06

that, for me is a cautionary tale when

7:09

we all have Teo parent, the way we

7:11

see fit. But I would just if anybody

7:14

can sort of see this as a moment off.

7:16

You know, maybe I'm not monitoring as much as I should.

7:19

I think it can really lose touch with your

7:21

kids. The great irony, of course, is

7:24

we've got so many ways to communicate

7:26

now. And yet our one on one

7:28

into personal level

7:30

of communication has never bean

7:34

Maur skewed away from

7:36

being able to actually

7:38

communicate face to face. Exactly. You

7:41

made the transition obviously not

7:44

in your twenties but in your forties to TV

7:47

after print after

7:49

having the best job in the world, the one

7:51

where you get to interview the prime minister one day

7:53

and even on the same day.

7:55

Mind to sing the sound of music

7:58

That was a highlight for May.

8:00

I'm glad it was for someone.

8:02

How do you look past that and come down

8:04

from that? Like, what happens?

8:06

What does look like life

8:08

look like on the other side of today? Show? Because presumably

8:10

you'll stop doing it At some stage. You'll

8:13

get Jack a bit and you know what I

8:15

can to make it 83 e

8:18

I will not let you be Helen Gurley Brown e

8:20

really want not e gave

8:22

fishnet tights and

8:25

leopard print? What?

8:28

What does it look like on the other side, like

8:30

travel? Does it look like

8:32

I have no idea I'd never,

8:35

ever, And you know me well

8:37

enough to know this is the truth. I've never had a five

8:39

year plan. You never have. Just I've

8:42

have been incredibly fortunate that

8:44

every job I've ever had I've just loved,

8:46

and that includes my very first

8:48

job, which was being sales assistant wrenches

8:51

shoe store in Campbelltown, wrenches to

8:53

Thursday night and Saturday mornings.

8:56

I've never had a job I didn't

8:59

love going

9:01

in to do. And

9:04

so I've never looked beyond what I'm doing every

9:06

day. I just want to know that every day I go to

9:08

work and I learn something new, I

9:10

get something out of it. I enjoy being

9:12

with my colleagues. I'm the

9:14

best professional person. Aiken Gay and

9:17

I have a laugh.

9:18

And how do you shift? You've had cast changes,

9:20

old lineup changes on the Today show. It's

9:22

such an intimate thing. It must pay anyone

9:25

that you with it for in the morning and

9:27

doing that much live TV you must have

9:30

very close relationships with when

9:32

that shifts and you know

9:34

George's Left and Bends left In the

9:36

last six months, Tim's coming and Sylvia's

9:38

coming. Has that changed? The

9:41

dynamic has that re energised it?

9:43

Does everyone have to learn each other's rhythms? What's

9:45

it Hasn't changed. Has it changed your delivery?

9:47

Yeah, sure. I mean, ultimately,

9:51

my closest relationship is always

9:53

going to be with Carl because you know,

9:55

there's that two shot every single

9:57

day, and so we know each

9:59

other so well. Now way.

10:02

No, the days when when one's

10:05

not having an off day, but one's got

10:07

more energy than the other. And it's

10:10

a completely unspoken thing, and we just

10:12

rise and lived for. And

10:15

it's not even that you didn't you

10:17

didn't deliver today. So you know, I

10:20

get to have my dad

10:21

thiss new Army

10:23

Wednesday because I caught you on Monday.

10:26

There is no point scoring. It's just

10:28

when you're doing it 3.5

10:30

hours a day, five days a week.

10:33

We get six weeks off years of 46

10:35

weeks off a year. You're

10:37

just aware that you're human and

10:41

you know that that comes with different

10:43

levels of energy on any given day. But

10:46

it'll balances out, and

10:48

ultimately we trust each other implicitly.

10:50

We know each other's strengths and weaknesses,

10:53

and we just we enjoy

10:55

each other both personally

10:58

and professionally, and we really appreciate

11:00

the differences in what we

11:02

bring each bring to the. It is a lot

11:04

like a marriage on

11:06

DH because she said that about

11:08

him and Mel Doyle, and I

11:10

guess by that definition he's on

11:12

to his second wife. But wait.

11:16

With marriage and a long term relationship,

11:19

you go through phases where you cannot stand. The way

11:21

the person blinks, the way they breathe

11:23

makes you want to kill them, and you get through that

11:25

or you get it watch. But usually you get through that, and

11:28

that's what marriage is. Is it the same

11:30

with the relationship? A coworker

11:32

relationship that's that intimate like you go through.

11:35

This particular thing he does is driving

11:37

me crazy. But you have to get through it because

11:40

you got to keep working with HR.

11:41

I can honestly say no because I think

11:44

I think what really life marriages

11:46

came to Bob down in is

11:48

different styles of parenting. And

11:50

you know that the challenges that can come

11:53

with teenagers that try and divide and conquer

11:56

over whether or not you did your fair share

11:58

of the washing up, sex up. Six.

12:00

Whether you're leaving dirty towels

12:03

on the floor. Who changed the toilet roll holder

12:05

most recently or not at all,

12:07

or not since 1985.

12:10

Somebody somebody

12:12

favourite doesn't just magically. So

12:15

you get bogged down in the domestics

12:18

and that Khun get in the way

12:20

off. You know the romance

12:22

of a marriage, whereas, you know, Carla

12:25

night separate at the end of every show

12:28

on DH, then we come back together every day.

12:30

And so it's, you know, it's almost

12:32

the ideal marriage because you have

12:34

all of the fun. You have all of the respect. You have

12:36

all of thesis of professional

12:39

camaraderie. But nobody's

12:41

fighting about who took out the garbage last Monday night.

12:44

What about the role of the executive producer?

12:46

Because you've had you had

12:49

Tom alone? You've now got Mark

12:51

Albert. It's an interesting

12:53

sort of a three way because there's you on Carl,

12:55

who are the hosts in the front of house. Then

12:57

there's the AP, who most people would never

12:59

have heard off how much

13:01

input to the hosts have as to

13:03

what goes to air and how much does

13:06

someone have to drive the bus and

13:08

make that final decision and it's not you.

13:10

Well, let's just set the record straight here. Carl

13:13

and I are just out the front.

13:15

There is a whole team that put together

13:17

the show. You know, there's a cast

13:19

of how big is the team? Well, it depends

13:21

on how far you want to go to back of

13:23

house, because we've got, of course, our executive

13:26

producer, associate producers, supervising

13:28

producers, then the whole team

13:30

off producers who are

13:33

putting together the briefs every single day

13:35

on DH. Then you've got a ll the crew, they're

13:37

on the floor. Then you've You've got all

13:39

of the people who dip in and out of the various

13:41

channel line shows who are part of

13:43

the support structure that put the show to air

13:45

of how a person marketing and hair make

13:47

up. Yeah, well,

13:48

that and so were the ones that get

13:50

all what time to get up. What is three

13:52

o'clock really feel like? But there's a whole

13:54

bank of people who are doing exactly the same

13:57

three s, and there's some who get

13:59

up one who were in earlier than

14:01

us who were getting together.

14:03

What's the breaking news overnight? So

14:05

for us to complain about what time we get up

14:07

when there's when all of us get up as

14:09

John Godly Hour, you know,

14:12

not surprisingly, that wouldn't go down too well,

14:14

so

14:14

but you've got all these people. But ultimately, if

14:16

a brief is wrong, if a question is lame,

14:19

if something doesn't go right,

14:22

it's You

14:22

guys show absolutely, and

14:25

we get those briefs and the briefs who always

14:27

really good, but particularly when it comes to

14:29

political interviews. I

14:31

mean,

14:32

how do you prepare Because you are very exacting,

14:36

just very well prepared. Well,

14:38

I just make sure I'm prepared. I mean, don't bother

14:40

doing the job unless you What

14:42

is the preparation look like?

14:44

Well, read in the papers every day, watching

14:46

sky news, watching

14:48

7 30 every night, watching Q and A.

14:51

You know, just making sure at every

14:53

turn that when there is

14:56

a shift in the breeze, when there's

14:59

there's nuances to the way the political

15:01

landscape is looking your across it,

15:03

you know why it's happened. You know who the main players

15:05

are. You know what people are talking about.

15:07

I listen to a lot of talk back radio. You

15:11

just make sure that you know what's going on because

15:13

in the end, I could go to bed

15:15

at seven o'clock every night. But

15:17

I might get a call at 10 PM saying you've got the

15:19

prime minister tomorrow morning. And

15:22

if I don't know what's happened between

15:24

seven. PM when I've gone to bed and

15:27

seven o'clock the next morning, that's 12

15:29

hours.

15:31

How can you ever go? Okay,

15:34

I'm going to look away for a minute and

15:36

get some sleep. Like there's always something

15:38

happening in the 24 hour news

15:40

cycle. Yeah, there is. You

15:42

just you just You gotta hedge your bets.

15:44

You've just got to make sure that you're as up to date as

15:46

you can possibly bay again.

15:48

There's producers there in the morning who

15:50

who might have caught something that you've missed.

15:53

Ah, nde, you know,

15:56

light lines coming back, which is a real bummer for

15:58

me because quite often,

15:59

but it's going to be 9. 30 at least,

16:01

but least that help.

16:03

Yeah, because how

16:05

many of the questions that you ask are scripted

16:08

and planned? And how many do you have?

16:10

Teo, just take the temperature as

16:12

the interview's happening. Live and attack.

16:15

It's about 50 50

16:18

because what you've got to do more than anything in a politically

16:20

and political interview is listen,

16:23

because what

16:24

you listening for? Often

16:26

slip ups, something

16:30

that you know is going to resonate

16:32

and hasn't been said before or

16:35

somebody who's not across their brief or

16:37

a change in policy. Or,

16:41

I mean, I asked the prime minister

16:43

at the end of last year what? He's great. His greatest

16:45

achievement. Wass as minister for women.

16:47

Now I could not have predicted that he would say

16:50

the carbon tax getting rid of the carbon tax was his

16:53

greatest achievement as minister. Women, I was expecting

16:56

something on domestic violence or

16:59

equal pay or women on boards.

17:01

I would have thought there very gender specific,

17:04

whereas don't I

17:07

know it was just glorious. How

17:09

did that question come about? Because 2 May

17:11

had you written all over it

17:13

because I looked. It was it

17:15

was all to do with the cabinet reshuffle

17:18

that the prime minister did back

17:20

in early December, and

17:23

I just looked at how many jobs had changed.

17:25

And I thought, I wonder what happened with his

17:27

role as minister for women? No, he's

17:29

still got that portfolio and I was

17:31

scratching my head, thinking, I'm trying

17:33

to think of one word

17:36

that I've heard him say in his

17:38

capacity as minister for women. And

17:41

I had a look online. I just couldn't find anything.

17:43

I thought, Well, maybe he's hiding his

17:45

light under a bushel.

17:47

Let's let's see, it's done all the great

17:49

work behind the scenes and not told anyone.

17:51

Someone in the press office hasn't

17:53

put out a press release on it. I

17:56

mean, how that felt at

17:58

the time, Just leading up

18:00

to that question, Where do you place the question?

18:03

He answers. Then how do you feel

18:07

inside? Are you going

18:08

well, You just You just

18:10

know that this is going to make headlines because

18:13

it was not the response I was

18:15

expecting. I thought he would have bean

18:17

well enough prepared because, of course,

18:19

leading up to him becoming prime minister,

18:21

there was all of this rhetoric about strong

18:24

wife, strong daughters, strong

18:26

chief of staff. This is a man who

18:29

was surrounded by strong

18:31

women, and yet somehow

18:33

it doesn't therefore become a priority

18:35

for him to make strong decisions

18:38

about advancing the cause of women or

18:40

at least fixing some of eels

18:43

that still exists.

18:44

Job there to be done. But he says

18:46

carbon tax, and then what do you do? Where

18:49

you going? I can't believe he just said that. Is

18:51

that what you're thinking?

18:52

You can let that lie, because

18:54

it it says everything

18:56

you need to know. And

18:59

then I let Social Media takeover

19:01

on. You knew that it was going to go now.

19:05

And did he know? What's it like at the

19:07

end of an interview like that?

19:08

Well, he stumbled. Yeah.

19:10

Hey, didn't see the question coming.

19:13

He didn't have a prepared answer and

19:17

he wouldn't have

19:18

been expecting it. And so then when

19:20

when you threw the commercial break or whatever, What

19:22

happened?

19:23

I said to Sylvia

19:24

that What did you say to him? Did he go our Thanks,

19:27

Lisa. Goodbye.

19:29

Well, it was just rusty after that. It

19:31

was

19:31

towards the end of the year. You get certainly

19:33

get frosty responses. And I finished

19:36

off by saying,

19:38

You know, you're always up for an interview, and I

19:40

really appreciate that with Tony

19:43

Abbott. He's always

19:45

available for interview with

19:47

us, and you know, there's plenty of politicians that say

19:49

no,

19:51

they won't talk to women's media won't

19:53

talk to us. A lot of promises for

19:56

the elections.

19:57

I don't know that I can help you

19:59

put in a good word. This's

20:02

a bit of a weird question, but when

20:04

you got the today show,

20:08

Pete was probably

20:10

had. At that time, your husband had

20:12

a higher profile in your marriage.

20:14

You've bean. You are an absolute icon.

20:18

Two women who had followed you through magazines

20:20

and you certainly had a profile. But

20:23

he was the former Wallaby. He

20:25

was all of those things. And then you got the today

20:27

show and now you are a superstar,

20:30

and why you have been nominated for a Golden Globe is

20:32

a travesty. And we've got to do something about that,

20:35

my friend, and it's showing we're going to fix

20:37

this shit issue. Getyou nominal

20:39

anyway. How's that? Two

20:42

big media people in one marriage is a lot.

20:45

I mean, I work with my husband, but he's not

20:47

front of house. How

20:50

does that work? You've

20:52

been together 20 years more.

20:55

I can honestly say it's not something we think

20:57

about

20:57

Way

21:00

live, A very you

21:02

know, sort of suburban family

21:05

life. You know, we don't go to a lot

21:07

of red carpet things way go

21:09

to things that would matter to

21:12

us like charity events that were

21:14

supporting. But

21:16

apart from that way

21:19

with our kids,

21:20

Do you still additonal books?

21:22

I haven't been able to do it in more recent

21:24

times are still obviously advise

21:27

you about the writing process is

21:28

very involved in each other's careers, and you always

21:30

very involved in you watch

21:32

each other stuff. I know each other advice

21:35

always

21:36

And that's, you know, Tio, I

21:39

know that you've got somebody at home

21:41

who totally has your back and

21:43

has given you good advice in the past. Doesn't mean

21:45

I always follow it, nor nor

21:47

he mine But

21:50

you. No way. We

21:52

have so many things in common

21:54

and always have and tow have

21:58

professions that on

22:00

and career parts that have been very

22:02

similar away long has

22:04

probably helped a lot. I

22:08

don't know. It's just we're really suburban

22:11

were really boring, but

22:12

I guess I wanted what I was getting at is Mohr.

22:15

How do you work out who takes priority

22:17

because you've both got extraordinarily demanding

22:20

jobs and you've you've had three kids and

22:22

just some life has to go on,

22:25

He's got the book deadline. You've got to be

22:27

in L. A. Or Perth or wherever

22:30

it has to bay. How

22:32

do you manage your lives that

22:34

part of your life? Well, we compare

22:36

diaries a lot. That's

22:38

kind of crucial. But with

22:40

Billy doing her you 12 exams this

22:42

year, way talk to her at the

22:44

beginning of the year because of our three kids. She

22:47

is definitely the most focused

22:49

on her accuracy. Absolutely. Our

22:51

boys doing their ecstasy was like dragging them backwards

22:54

through wet sand. And

22:59

Billy is focused and

23:02

hard working and

23:05

therefore stressed. And so we started

23:07

down the beginning of the What can we do

23:10

to help you through this? And she said, What

23:12

I want more than anything is every

23:14

night to be able to sit down to

23:16

a home cooked meal and

23:18

talk to you both on DSO.

23:22

So far, we're in March, and,

23:24

you know, since she's been back at school, we've been doing that. And

23:26

Pete, God love him has discovered

23:29

cooking. Has he? He's discovered

23:31

he could turn down a

23:32

hook. The only time I've ever seen Pete

23:34

Cook was when he was suddenly a contestant

23:36

on Celebrity master share that

23:38

about well, that was about cocoa. For about

23:41

two months. We

23:43

had a ban on toast. We had cooking that

23:45

ice cream. We had the lot. But

23:49

I mean, you know, we just

23:52

She's out last. She

23:53

cooks dinner

23:55

Well, he's been cooking dinner a lot, and

23:57

what I've been telling him for years is cooking

23:59

is not that hard. Try those

24:02

30 recipe books that we've got

24:04

sitting on the steps is he's discovered.

24:06

How is it is and I've always cooked

24:08

and I like cooking. But when

24:10

you're

24:11

always drudgery

24:12

Thie only

24:14

one sees the mess after the cooking. You

24:17

know, that could make for a great marital

24:19

spat. And it's amazing

24:21

how attention has dropped

24:23

because Billy feels like she gets a parent's

24:25

every single night way, said to her

24:28

Way into you. We sit

24:30

down, we have a home cooked meal.

24:32

Obviously, there's nights when sun lights his home

24:34

here in the Oscars, You here. You

24:37

know, that night I had to go to the Oscars, but

24:39

that's that's the plan. Tto have a plan

24:42

is the main thing, and to mostly stick

24:44

to it.

24:45

Is it because I asked you to do something thiss

24:47

year and you said we've committed,

24:51

yes, but I had my that.

24:52

She's she's number one.

24:54

So

24:54

we do something for me next

24:55

year. Next

24:58

year

25:00

E o

25:02

called free flyers. We had all these

25:04

women in a nice don't call us empty nesters. It makes

25:06

a sound sad and lonely.

25:08

And when not happy and you know who are into

25:11

last week is Deborah. Lt's world, and I like

25:13

being an empty nester. And she said, No, Richard and I can have

25:15

loud sex all over the house. Okay,

25:18

I wasn't expecting that.

25:20

And is that what she's doing? What she's doing with

25:22

Richard Glover's How good's

25:24

that? Well, yes,

25:29

there's a camera on us right now. Wei didn't

25:31

say that.

25:34

Thanks for listening to no Philtre. Tune

25:36

in next time to hear me talk to journalist

25:38

and writer Rebecca Sparrow. Find

25:41

out more about this podcast on the Mamma Mia Podcast

25:43

networks Facebook Page or on My

25:45

Facebook Page, May of Friedman Online.

25:48

Thiss podcast was produced by Mon ic Boli

25:50

Research by ELISA Ratliff on hosted

25:53

by Mai Mai, A Freedman