2:01

We want the kind of truth from people

2:03

who have the eyes to see, you know,

2:05

like they get it, they get the

2:07

joy, they get the absurdity, and

2:10

they get the kind of tenderness underneath

2:12

about what makes us all human. So

2:16

this episode is really special to

2:18

me because I've been really hoping

2:20

to meet this guy. Rob

2:23

Delaney is one of my very

2:25

favorite funny people. He's

2:27

a comedian and he's an actor

2:29

and writer. So he co-created, co-starred

2:32

this critically acclaimed Emmy

2:35

nominated BAFTA winning comedy

2:37

called Catastrophe. And

2:39

it's just basically perfect in every way. And if

2:42

you haven't seen it, you must and I apologize

2:44

that it's very spicy. But Rob

2:46

is also a gorgeous writer. He's the

2:48

kind of person that obviously

2:52

writes to think clearly. And

2:55

so his memoir, it's

2:57

called A Heart That Works. And

3:01

it's an unsparing account of the death

3:03

of his beautiful son, Henry. He

3:06

lives in London with his family.

3:08

And that's where I sat down with him. He

3:11

rode his bike there. He's very

3:14

tall. And if you want

3:16

to see video of me just losing

3:18

my mind, either laughing or crying, we've

3:20

got video clips of this

3:23

whole interview. If you

3:25

subscribe to my newsletter,

3:27

that's katebowler.com/newsletter. He's

3:30

the kind of person who doesn't pull punches. He

3:33

also doesn't say kind of the typical kosher

3:36

thing. His response

3:38

to pain is very guttural and

3:41

honest and frankly, incredibly funny.

3:45

And so you're going to hear that

3:47

in our surprisingly

3:49

intimate chat today. It's

3:52

a lot of dark humor. So prepare to

3:54

feel mildly

3:56

offended, but just know you're

3:59

my people. And the great

4:01

tragic comedy is one

4:03

we all understand. All

4:05

right, Rob Delaney, everyone.

4:08

Rob, I loved,

4:11

loved, loved your book. And I

4:13

think the thing that is so striking

4:16

about it right away is it

4:18

doesn't spare you anything. It's

4:21

intense and funny and wry

4:23

and throat punchy. And

4:27

it seems like you're already

4:30

practiced in unvarnished

4:32

truth telling. So I

4:34

wondered if before all of this happened, were

4:37

you like that? To

4:39

a degree, my boy

4:42

Henry died right before he

4:44

turned three. So

4:47

we knew him, you know, he wasn't a tiny little baby.

4:49

He was a person with thoughts,

4:51

feelings, opinions, tastes, you

4:54

know, idiosyncrasies. And

4:56

so when we knew he was

4:58

gonna die, and then when he did

5:00

die, we were just destroyed. And

5:07

I thought the best thing that I could do for people who

5:09

haven't experienced this is

5:12

not try to protect them from it, which

5:15

is a very powerful impulse. You wanna like

5:17

protect people from your crazy story sometimes or

5:19

like ease them into it. And

5:21

I thought I just had developed I

5:23

guess, enough of like storytelling instincts

5:26

from the other stuff that I've done. I was

5:28

like, you know what, maybe I shouldn't. And

5:31

maybe I shouldn't worry about anybody

5:34

else when I write this. But

5:37

I was conscious at the same time that if I

5:39

don't do that, it'll probably be the better book. And

5:42

so I just wanted it to

5:44

be a disaster. And

5:46

I wanted it to hurt. Because

5:48

if you read this book before something incredibly

5:51

terrible happened to you, you might be in

5:53

better shape than if you read something that

5:55

was like, Here are three

5:57

mantras that you can do. Just.

6:00

even in the dinner carb for your buck,

6:03

your seat belt or any of that stuff

6:05

because if he gave people for real the

6:07

make it like a hang how are you

6:09

know and then for people who had been

6:11

through it I for you to would be

6:13

like getting into it. You know the

6:15

A G M C B? You know at

6:18

sunset? So that was the goal

6:20

to give them something they recognize as as. yup,

6:22

that's it. This as. And then for

6:24

people who had been through it to be

6:26

like why did you do that to me

6:28

with your buck you monster and have me

6:30

say yes correct. Other

6:33

than that so refreshing because I am

6:35

something someone said to me recently I

6:37

was listening really debilitating pain and I

6:39

didn't want send is that part of

6:42

the story and then they just the

6:44

had. Because I can keep my voice

6:46

up here and my local greeted as when I keep

6:48

my voice of yeah yeah and she said oh you

6:50

clean up quick. Yeah,

6:53

node I think that is why it's been.

6:55

It's practice now for me to season to

6:57

let let people feel the weight of the

6:59

thing. I want to tell them because it

7:02

is it. It's hard to say like right

7:04

now I need down to hurt me or

7:06

when I tell you I wanted. To.

7:08

Land. And the weird part is is

7:11

that if they. Take.

7:13

It and here at. An.

7:17

Event might not even of saying is that was

7:19

they sit there and a t by contact with

7:21

you. And they don't hold their

7:23

breath. And let it in. The.

7:25

New can move through it and then you can

7:27

talk about like what to order for dinner. Or

7:30

whatever. But if they don't and they close

7:32

off and they don't hear it, then. Then.

7:35

There's gonna be like. Discomfort

7:37

Their that's gone sour the rest

7:39

of your interactions because it's almost

7:41

like. Somebody. Threw a handful

7:43

of paint at the wall, Your

7:46

story with cancer or Das

7:48

for. And.

7:51

Then they are like Adam we shan't

7:53

look at you know on as a

7:55

big crazy orange star pattern he's ripping,

7:57

coagulate the on the why, let's acknowledge

7:59

him and then we can do our

8:01

thing. but if you don't knowledge of

8:03

them then you go crazy. Yes. That's

8:06

exactly right. I'll. You. Can

8:08

stay in. you can tell when someone scare

8:10

have you even tell in someone's like I'm

8:12

in a keep a really tight scripts right

8:15

now or we might fall off the edge

8:17

and talk about something room. And then there's

8:19

times I think I just don't know how

8:21

to manage the like on children's birthday parties.

8:24

I feel a part of the something growing

8:26

inside of me where I. Want

8:28

so much to answer everyone's questions they didn't

8:31

ask them. Why do I need to do

8:33

this year? Yeah. I do. he asked

8:35

All the sudden I have almost a

8:37

hobby because imagine children's birthday parties.

8:39

I love it when a child

8:41

will hear that Henry died and

8:43

then ask me about it. And.

8:45

This has happened more than a couple

8:48

times where their parents radar will go

8:50

up. But. Unfortunately, they're about fifteen

8:52

feet away, and in the time

8:54

it'll take some to cover that

8:56

distance to prevent their child from

8:58

hearing about death. I've already

9:00

told the story to their little child

9:02

and they know that my child died

9:04

and then they have that knowledge and

9:06

their shitty parent can do nothing about

9:08

it. And I've given them a

9:10

gift because that child can handle it.

9:13

They can handle it like nobody's business.

9:15

Is that forgiven for at all A

9:17

doll to thought. oh I can control

9:19

what typos you know. Truce reached my

9:21

child. Well, you didn't count on me,

9:23

calendar or to did you. Will

9:33

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11:43

are moments that feel intolerable, I think,

11:45

once you know things. Like your description

11:47

of needing to

11:49

not pretend anymore that

11:52

an old person passing away is

11:54

the same thing. Like playing the game, everything's

11:56

the same because everyone wants a moment to

11:58

relate. have this deep

12:00

desire to say me too

12:03

and yet things are not the same

12:05

and being able to parse those differences is

12:09

sanity. Yeah. Yeah,

12:11

it was interesting like Tina Turner died and I

12:14

think she was 83 if I recall and when

12:17

I heard that I was like wow

12:20

she made it to 83 how

12:22

amazing and now I'm reminded to

12:24

listen to Tina Turner. Yeah! You

12:27

know? Yeah. I

12:29

mean when I heard people being like

12:31

oh my god Tina Turner has passed

12:33

away and I was like yeah at

12:35

83 after climbing the musical equivalent of

12:37

a variety of Everests like if you're

12:39

why are you not dancing you know

12:42

and so that's always strange to me.

12:44

I mean I get it you know

12:46

but for me it's a whole different

12:48

bag or that my dad

12:51

died three

12:53

days after A Heart That Works came

12:55

out and that's

12:58

my dad. He was 74. I'd

13:01

like to live longer than 74 but

13:04

I'd rather live to 74 than not

13:07

quite three like Henry did right and

13:11

also I didn't want to be like the

13:13

guy who if I love you you die

13:15

you know what I mean? So

13:17

I kind of been like I think

13:19

I did on Morning Joe they

13:21

were like and your dad how's your dad

13:23

on live Morning TV and I was like

13:25

oh I hate to tell you

13:27

this on live TV but he did

13:31

he did sort of die. He's

13:38

mostly deceased and

13:41

I can look I wish he wasn't dead

13:44

I love him so much and he took

13:46

such good care of Henry oh my god

13:49

and also the one-two punch of

13:51

having the book come out and

13:54

then my sweet dad die my

13:56

dad Bob after whom I'm named

13:58

and who I look like. Beautiful

18:00

to me. I miss it so much. I

18:03

don't want to do it all. When I

18:05

think about him, I don't think about him

18:07

like pre-surgery, pre-disability. Like I want

18:09

him back with

18:11

his horrible tracheostomy

18:15

which allowed him to breathe. So I also loved

18:17

it. I wish I was

18:20

sleep deprived because I was sleeping on the floor

18:22

of his room listening to his breathing and his

18:24

machines and stuff. And I wish I was changing

18:27

his tubes and you

18:30

know, dealing with the weird like there's like

18:32

permanent infections you can get. Like if you

18:34

have stoma like holes that aren't natural in

18:36

your body, there are bacterias and stuff

18:39

that can come and live there and you kind of

18:41

can't get rid of them. So you

18:43

have to you know, I

18:46

want to be doing all that because you learn

18:48

all that stuff and now I can't do it.

18:50

Now I'm like whenever I hear like a car

18:52

crash, I'm not like oh scary. I'm like oh,

18:54

I hope I can help someone. I hope you

18:56

know, I was on a plane not too long

18:58

ago and they were like is there a doctor

19:00

on board and I went up to the flight

19:02

attendant and was like I'm not a doctor but

19:04

like if there's blood, I don't care. Look how

19:06

big I am. I can lift your biggest passenger

19:08

like use me and they were like alright weirdo.

19:10

You know? I mean that was like

19:13

in the first year after Henry's death but I'm

19:15

constantly like if I weren't

19:17

exactly as busy I am with a

19:19

career that I'm really lucky to love,

19:21

I would absolutely be like a part-time

19:24

overqualified paramedic. You

19:27

describe a feeling that I had not ever

19:29

heard anyone say about

19:32

suffering, the aftermath of

19:34

suffering was you were like I

19:37

don't know how to describe it.

19:39

It's this like

19:41

you know how to dig

19:43

in really fast. Like there's something

19:45

about like a long-term relationship with fear

19:47

and then having and being like I

19:50

love you, I am rising to

19:52

this. You're like I have a higher pain threshold

19:54

because I have this feeling like I could kill

19:57

a man. Yeah. Yeah.

20:00

now have a really, really deep threshold.

20:02

Even though there's so much Little House on the

20:05

Prairie content here, I have like

20:07

a murderous ability

20:10

to manage impossible situations and

20:12

get it done. I

20:15

would happily volunteer to perform

20:18

field medicine. Oh yeah,

20:20

yeah, yeah. And then when I

20:22

hear like, well, what if you died in the

20:24

emergency scenario describing like, well, then I would be

20:26

dead. That doesn't even phase me. I'm

20:29

like, well, yeah, you get to do, yeah,

20:31

you might die. I'm not saying you're not

20:33

gonna die. Or like when I hear about

20:35

a problem out in the world, I'm like,

20:37

well, okay, yeah, sure. So totally people died,

20:39

but also things will, you know, life will

20:41

continue. So it's so weird what happens to

20:43

your kind of... Yes, frame of reference. Emotional

20:45

triage and everything, you're like, well, okay,

20:47

how do we get through this? I

20:50

do feel that way when I meet people that

20:53

you see it in behind their eyes

20:55

and you're like, oh, you and you

20:57

and you. And we

21:00

are, we have been handed a

21:02

passport and I like

21:05

being around those people. I

21:07

seek it out and

21:09

I sometimes that's the only thing

21:11

that makes me relax. Yeah. Yeah. I

21:14

love hanging out with my shallow bereaved parents so much. Yeah,

21:18

but I'm always calling, texting, hanging

21:21

out with my bereaved parent friends because

21:24

we can just chill around each other

21:26

and get it. It's just easier. We'll

21:34

be right back. In

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you get your podcasts. In

22:57

the before times of you,

22:59

it seems like you were kind

23:01

of on a big upswing. There's a feeling I

23:03

get sometimes where things are busy and things are

23:07

wonderful and they kind of have competing

23:09

loves and they take up a lot of space

23:12

that I can almost overwork

23:14

or overdo something. I think, I'll just pay

23:16

it back later. Life is so full. Was

23:19

that the season you were in? When

23:21

we moved here to London from Los

23:23

Angeles nine years ago, I started

23:25

doing the sitcom Catastrophe. We

23:29

did the first two seasons back to back

23:32

and it didn't occur to me because I was going

23:34

through kind of what you're talking about that I could

23:37

say like, what

23:40

if we took six weeks off

23:42

between the two seasons of television

23:46

that we both write, executive

23:49

produce, and thawing? What if

23:51

we just took ... We just

23:53

drove right in and that was a

23:55

very bad idea. My

23:58

wife said ... Towards

24:00

the end when we were

24:02

editing season two She said

24:04

so do you have a second?

24:06

Yeah, she said this last year

24:09

and a half has been a waking nightmare You

24:12

have not been Present you

24:14

moved me here with a three-year-old

24:17

and a one-year-old and I was

24:19

pregnant and I am Incredibly

24:24

unhappy and I'm gonna divorce you unless

24:26

you change the way that you work

24:29

immediately and I thought

24:31

about it for a second and I said, okay

24:33

and Began

24:36

to set about to do that

24:38

and then days After

24:41

that, you know, not even a month Henry

24:44

became sick and then we found his tumor

24:47

and then of course, you know Another

24:50

thing we haven't mentioned yet is that my

24:52

beautiful young brother-in-law died

24:54

by suicide One

24:57

year before Henry died, right? so Henry's

24:59

getting chemo in the hospital at Great

25:01

Ormond Street Hospital and I'm

25:04

on the double-decker bus with my older

25:07

boys And when I say older I

25:09

do mean three and five and they like my lieutenants,

25:11

you know So I'm heading home from the hospital My

25:13

wife has tapped me out and is at the hospital

25:15

and I'm on the top of the bus with my

25:18

boys And my sister calls

25:20

and tells me that her husband my

25:22

beautiful brother-in-law has jumped off a bridge

25:24

in Boston and is dead and

25:28

so all these

25:30

things happening were You

25:34

know just staggering and

25:36

my sister and I are are The

25:38

only two and our family and I'm five

25:40

years older and she's a girl. I'm a

25:42

boy So like we never really there

25:45

was never rivalry or really fighting. We're just

25:47

always like super pals, you know, and

25:49

so it was so weird

25:52

to to in the space

25:54

of 15

25:56

months have those things happen. You

25:58

both have unspeakable problems to people who

26:01

don't know how to speak about it. And

26:03

then you're both these cast

26:06

out into outer darkness together. Like

26:08

you wish you'd wish just one of those

26:10

things that happened, you know. If you

26:12

got to pick like, do you want both to happen or just

26:14

one? You would pick one but

26:17

that isn't what happened, they both happened. And

26:20

so now she and I have a means

26:23

of communication that is, you

26:25

know, insane.

26:29

And then our poor mom, it

26:31

took me a minute to extend

26:34

for the, I don't know, shock

26:37

waves or mushroom cloud of

26:40

sympathy to reach and include my mom

26:42

because she's like one step to roof

26:44

but because it's both her kids that

26:46

happened, that's so incredibly

26:48

awful, you know. So

26:51

that she's still trucking and it's

26:53

been so amazing for both of

26:55

us, I would really like to

26:57

salute her resilience and beauty of

27:00

spirit. When we think about

27:02

the shape that our families and our friends and our lives

27:04

become, I mean, there's

27:07

not a lot of Mother's Day cards that are

27:09

like, as the years go on together, we will

27:11

find a, trying to think of a lot of

27:13

rhymes for together, just on the line. Leather.

27:17

That is a letter. Yep. Tether.

27:21

Tears will something. Tether me with your leather. Okay,

27:23

no. That's a different kind of thing. I

27:28

mean, I'm just thinking of the

27:30

kind of ways we all have to change, learn

27:32

to change roles over the

27:34

course of each other's lives and loves to be

27:36

like, I know how to be you. I

27:38

know how to be your mom. I know how to take care

27:40

of these functional primary needs. And it's like, oh, I need to

27:43

learn to be your friends so I can let you go to

27:45

college. Oh, wait, I need to learn to let you have a

27:47

career that is, oh, wait, now I need to learn

27:50

how to be around catastrophic

27:52

grief I cannot possibly solve in

27:55

a way that is not annoying. My mom

27:57

told me about someone that she knew

27:59

not to. terribly well. It was sort of a

28:01

there was like a dinner party where there were

28:03

people who weren't like best friends

28:05

or whatever, but you know, whatever. Yeah dinner

28:08

party and One

28:11

woman was asked Hey, yeah,

28:13

how are you doing because she kind of seemed down and

28:15

her answer was Well, my

28:18

daughter is in the fucking ground

28:21

so I'm not really doing that

28:23

well and my mom being like

28:27

And this was before like my mom wasn't

28:29

in the blast zone So she didn't have

28:31

to immediately she wasn't but she overheard that

28:34

and she knew that that woman's daughter had

28:36

died and was just like I'm

28:38

really glad that why he wasn't the one

28:40

who had to respond to that because who

28:42

would be right? I

28:45

mean me I'd be like, yeah, what the

28:47

fuck, you know I'd

28:49

be like why don't we go out? Let's just get you know

28:51

instead of like Oh Shooting

28:54

BB guns at beer bottle. Let's go through other

28:56

beer bottles at beer bottle. Let's just throw beer

28:58

bottles at cars yes, that will make us feel

29:00

better and and So

29:03

then but then my mom recently told me she

29:05

was like, yeah I remember that you know and

29:07

then and then everything that happened to our family

29:10

did and I was like, oh, yeah She's yeah

29:12

fantastic. Yeah, yeah, I was in the ground not

29:14

doing but not doing too good. How are you?

29:16

Yeah Going do

29:18

you like the rice pilaf? I

29:23

That tignotaro opening in her

29:27

Like I have cancer. How are you?

29:29

How's everyone doing? I can't sir. I

29:31

thought that cheerfulness of that just spectacular

29:34

Sleepy when I think

29:36

about it. Yeah, she's so wonderful take up

29:38

over and thinking about all

29:40

the Responses to terrible

29:43

things that I did not love. Yeah, I

29:46

Wonder if we get things to say things not to

29:48

say for a bit. Okay

29:50

things to say I really

29:52

like it when someone says Some

29:56

version of like I'm so sorry

29:58

that happened to you. Yeah, likely to

30:01

You Kind of gets me very emotional

30:03

because it's not like I'm some generic

30:05

pursue in the world and you really

30:07

like when someone sorry. For.

30:09

This specific right now. Yeah.

30:13

I mean and questions I love

30:15

if my son died at age

30:17

of two years, nine months and

30:19

you learn math. You.

30:21

Are I promise? wondering.

30:24

Why wondering how. wondering.

30:26

The circumstances. Old. Name.

30:29

You. Know. I'm.

30:31

So happy to answer those questions you

30:33

know and and to people who are

30:36

like why didn't want to bring it

30:38

up number into using a mouse thinking

30:40

about my son. Who died.

30:42

Who. Said body I held. The.

30:46

My you know go month think is is my Harrison

30:48

are you think has his dad. I have

30:50

four sons. One. Of them

30:52

dead, but he still receiving. A

30:55

quarter cache of my parenting energy.

30:58

I mean, I'm sure the percentages

31:00

change between kids. Every

31:02

day. It's a lovely him and he's my

31:04

son. Yeah, I'm his dad. Vital.

31:07

Never change. Whereas he, i

31:09

don't know. That

31:11

that? I don't know. Which.

31:14

Is good I wouldn't wanna know. You know

31:16

I want wonder for when we die You

31:18

know the idea like oh yeah I know

31:20

it's I know to happen to Mom I'm

31:22

an answer factory. If you ever wondered how

31:25

Alzheimer's with him, the secrets of. I

31:27

guess you probably like bossy people just

31:30

don't ask random crap and show up

31:32

with lovely things. I hear that when

31:34

people said ah is are they can

31:36

do. Oh yeah yeah I mean

31:38

you could come up with something to

31:40

do and so an invalid or you

31:42

could not give me a job they

31:44

are sent me. That question has sent

31:46

you into my my exactly how disappeared.

31:48

Why are you just bring a mediocre/she's

31:51

not even good casserole and you put

31:53

it my friends unanimous. ah

31:55

you come over you say you're

31:57

going to be here with my

32:00

children for a couple hours, will you go

32:02

for a run or

32:04

go walk in the park or whatever, go find

32:06

a weird corner in the park and lie down,

32:08

face down and cry into the soil and have

32:11

snails, drink your tears, you know.

32:14

That's much better. Also, kids again, a

32:17

nice parent with their kid, a good friend of

32:19

mine was sitting there and their

32:21

daughter asked about my, you know, about my son

32:24

Henry and who's Henry and I said, he's my son and

32:26

he died and she just went, what?

32:30

He died? And I

32:32

was like, yeah. And she said, and

32:35

he's, he died and he's

32:37

dead? And I was

32:40

like, yeah. How? Why? You

32:42

know, and being like, he got a, he had

32:44

a brain tumor, which is like cancer in

32:47

your brain. And like, that's so much

32:49

better because every adult is

32:51

that curious, you know, and

32:54

so fucking ask. Um,

32:57

you know, or people

33:00

who were like, are you, are like

33:02

Jesus Christ, I can't even fucking imagine,

33:04

you know what I mean? Profanity. That's

33:06

the best. I feel a deep calm.

33:08

I had this weird response to,

33:13

I was just starting, I was starting cancer and I

33:15

was starting lint and that was my like 40

33:18

days of 40 days of F-bomb.

33:21

I work in a very religious context and I was

33:23

like, this is the new me. Yeah. But the new

33:25

me, the new me felt very, it

33:27

was, I mean, they have those studies of like, if you

33:29

put your hand in cold, freezing cold water and you're

33:32

allowed a million expletives, the

33:34

people who are swearing the whole

33:36

time can keep their hands subvert for longer.

33:38

And I thought that feels right. And

33:41

the worst things that people say, um, just

33:44

like the question was how we're

33:46

saying things are

33:48

very bad. We've recently learned that

33:51

Henry's cancer has come back. Um, and

33:53

he's going to die. Oh

33:56

yeah. My grandfather had a brain tumor.

33:58

Um, he, he got better but...

34:02

They always do so well in the end. Yeah.

34:05

Yeah. And so that's bad. I

34:07

hate that for you so much.

34:10

Another one, somebody said, how are

34:13

you doing? Not great, you know,

34:16

first Christmas without Henry's coming up and

34:19

I would prefer to just go into

34:21

a medically induced coma just for six

34:23

weeks and skip it. But

34:26

then our new son had been born because my

34:29

wife, I mean, this is not

34:31

even one podcast, this is a series. My

34:33

wife was pregnant when Henry died, right? I mean,

34:36

if you can even imagine that. And

34:39

so we had a new son who arrived

34:41

before Christmas and this person

34:43

said, yeah, but you know, first Christmas

34:45

was the new guy, like as

34:47

if like deflecting the fact. And

34:50

for me, the thing is, it's so weird because like

34:52

the arrival of our new son in

34:55

no way addressed Henry's

34:58

absence. By

35:00

the same token, Henry's death

35:02

did not lessen our joy at

35:04

this beautiful new fella who'd entered

35:07

the scene. So, it was almost

35:09

like when you see like

35:11

an estuary where like freshwater and saltwater

35:13

and like one is blurry and one

35:16

is clear, you're like, they're not... They

35:18

aren't intermingling, you know what I mean?

35:20

Like they're right next to each other

35:22

and you might feel them at the

35:24

same time but they don't like the

35:27

arrival of number four did not lessen

35:30

the nightmare horror of

35:32

losing Henry. Nor did Henry

35:35

dying make this little

35:37

nugget any less delicious and

35:39

you know, and I was very worried. I thought, well,

35:42

I don't love anymore

35:44

because it's all my

35:47

heart is destroyed. So

35:49

I'll go through the emotions with him,

35:51

like I'll tell him I love him,

35:53

I'll dress him and feed him but

35:56

his experience is gonna suck, you know? And

36:00

the second he came out, I was like, give me a

36:02

penis. You know,

36:04

I just wanted like rubbing him all over

36:06

my face and head and licking and biting

36:09

his ears. I still bite. The amount of

36:11

time that my kid's ears spend in my

36:13

mouth is... I know. It's insane. We

36:16

had to make rules. Like we signed contracts, my

36:18

son and I, about like, we had to make...

36:20

Yeah, there's so many biting rules. It's

36:22

the only sort of like constitution

36:25

of that relationship is

36:27

like, number one, under these

36:29

conditions. I will eat you

36:32

up. Yeah. When

36:35

you think about what... Because Henry's

36:38

pain, I imagine, was always on your mind. But

36:41

then his absurd, gorgeous

36:44

joy and personality, it feels

36:47

like you've got a lot of strong

36:49

feelings about joy and puppies and what

36:51

makes life really beautiful and good in the

36:54

middle of suffering. Yeah,

36:56

well, they... It's... They

36:59

all... You can happen and coexist and stuff, you

37:01

know. So we were having a

37:03

lot of fun often when Henry was

37:05

in the hospital, you know. There

37:08

were a lot of terrible... There are many

37:10

terrible things. Too many to list when

37:13

you have a tumor next

37:15

to your brainstem, the cranial nerves. It

37:17

messes up a lot of stuff. But

37:20

like frontal lobe, totally undisturbed.

37:23

So like just,

37:26

you know, minutia and finer

37:28

things and tastes, you

37:30

know, and foibles and stuff were

37:32

razor sharp in him. So he

37:35

was very fun. He was very funny. He was

37:37

very curious. He was very mischievous. He was like

37:39

stealing things all the time? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

37:42

I mean, nurses would be like, where is it? And Henry would be hiding under

37:44

his pillow, you know. You

37:48

know, he would come out and climb

37:50

up and sit on the desk of

37:52

like the ward nurse head and help

37:54

them answer calls and stuff, you know.

37:56

I mean, he was ridiculous. And

37:58

also, he was sort of... of a combination

38:00

of like third boy in a very short

38:03

space of time. I mean, his

38:05

oldest brother was four when he was born and then there

38:07

was one more in the middle. So, we've got three boys

38:09

under the age of five. So, since

38:11

he showed up third, he, you know,

38:14

kind of wisely was like, okay, I'll

38:16

be very magnetic and sweet and smiley

38:18

and lovely, you know, not like screaming

38:20

for attention but just like being such

38:23

that you couldn't ignore him, you know.

38:25

He'd like a little cutie pie can

38:27

either do you towards him and

38:30

then after his, they

38:33

found the tumor and he had a surgery, then he

38:35

had to be like, you know,

38:37

the Evander Holyfield of just

38:40

ferocious

38:44

aspiration and drive to

38:46

learn and relearn things.

38:49

So, he was just like, I mean,

38:51

he was like in the minds

38:53

of unbelievable hard work, you know,

38:56

learning to use his body under

38:58

these new circumstances. So, he

39:00

was this like, he was like the sweetest and

39:03

most driven. He really made

39:05

a lot of other kids look like shit. Yeah,

39:13

those garbage kids. You got to just

39:15

feel sorry for them. Yeah, not my other

39:17

kids though because they were so amazing

39:19

with them. I mean, the things that

39:22

they learned are other little

39:24

gentlemen, you know. I mean, they could

39:26

set up a feed, you know, like

39:28

through the stomach tube and

39:31

they could do,

39:33

you know, basic

39:35

tracheostomy, maintenance and

39:37

care and always

39:40

in his hospital beds and playing

39:42

and like the number of pictures

39:44

we have of our three kids

39:46

in one hospital bed, having a

39:49

very good time is

39:51

just so, yeah, they

39:54

were amazing and are amazing.

39:57

Because I often wonder, I mean, the things

39:59

you can't ever do. know but like as a parent you

40:01

always want like who's this gonna make

40:03

you? Yeah, my 10-year-old is

40:06

I sometimes

40:08

call our 10-year-old and he's the second

40:10

one the mayor of the family because

40:13

he's just he's just a smiley go-getter

40:15

you know and like to be in

40:17

charge and and is loud and

40:20

it makes friends easily and all that and

40:23

it sometimes can be really annoying and awful and

40:26

you know physically attack both his older and younger

40:28

brother and things like that you know he's a

40:30

human being right and anyway so not

40:33

too long ago he was playing football that's

40:36

what they call baseball here and

40:38

the grandmother of another kid that he

40:40

was playing

40:47

football with came up to me and said I just

40:49

want to let you know he's being so kind to

40:51

my grandson Timothy when he plays football

40:54

and not all the other kids are and

40:56

you know he just moved to town what

40:58

your son Diego is doing and

41:00

by the way I love that name Diego which

41:02

is real it's really encouraging

41:06

to him you know and he's so appreciate that he's

41:08

come home and told me that and I'm like okay

41:10

so I immediately start crying to this woman I don't

41:12

know and I'm

41:15

like you

41:18

know and and then I'm like

41:20

infuriously texting my friend like you're never gonna believe what I

41:23

deserve freaking

41:31

out and then Diego came over

41:33

and he I didn't know

41:36

he'd come up like behind me and saw me sending the text I

41:38

was like you weren't supposed to know that like I was gonna use

41:40

that later as a musician when

41:42

you'd make me upset it was a look

41:44

at it and you know just how weird

41:46

intra-family dynamics you know I was like but

41:48

now you know I'm so proud of you

41:52

the craziest thing

41:55

we're all just

41:58

looking for signs you know what I mean like

42:00

he was doing a type of kindness that

42:02

like you don't have to do as a

42:04

10-year-old boy, you know? And I was just

42:06

so happy to hear that. And

42:09

so, yeah, so I don't know. You know, what

42:11

he did when he had done that, otherwise, who knows?

42:13

But I do know that he when he

42:15

was four, you know, knew

42:18

how to feed his brother with a machine,

42:20

you know, through a tube in his stomach

42:22

and set up all the weird controls for

42:25

it. So, it parcels it out properly through

42:27

the night and stuff. Yeah.

42:30

Yeah. It's

42:33

always the hope, right? It's not just for change. We're

42:36

all going to change regardless, but for

42:38

some kind of... And

42:40

this is like the... This is one of my

42:42

favorite theological terms, which I actually find

42:45

useful, which is just like there's

42:48

nothing redemptive about suffering, but

42:50

there is, I think, a hope,

42:53

a hope, a hope of like sanctification.

42:56

It's like when you love and

42:58

it's... And you love and you love and

43:00

then you do all the hard work of loving that

43:03

just the act of loving makes

43:06

you into a person. Yeah. If the

43:08

things happen that are hard and

43:12

you like metabolize

43:14

them and turn out to hate them,

43:17

then... And

43:19

you acknowledge, yeah, that really happened. You

43:22

know, it hurt terribly. It hurts right

43:24

now thinking about it, but

43:26

it did happen. Yeah,

43:29

I did acquire some hard

43:32

one skills that I would give

43:34

away in a second. Immediately. But I can't. So,

43:37

I might as well use them. You're

43:39

immediately. But I can't. So,

43:41

I might as well use them. That

43:44

is in religious words, we would be like, that

43:46

is a testimony. And I'm so grateful to have

43:49

met you. I enjoyed that so

43:51

much. Thank you. I

44:00

used to imagine that life was a series of

44:02

choices, you know, by my

44:04

sheer grit and charisma and

44:08

advanced degrees that I'd be

44:10

able to get through life unscathed,

44:13

you know, and then, and

44:16

then, and then, and then. And

44:19

I wrote about that feeling in

44:21

No Cure for Being Human, and it's,

44:26

it's always such a gift then

44:29

when I get to meet other

44:31

people who have the same feeling,

44:34

like they were suddenly exiled from a

44:36

world that they loved, and

44:38

they wonder, well then, how do you live?

44:40

I think

44:43

that's one of my very favorite parts about this

44:45

listening community, is that you all get

44:48

it. You are

44:50

people who understand that things

44:52

happen, that just unmake

44:54

this, unmake

44:56

all of our well-laid plans and

44:58

all of our best intentions and

45:00

our greatest hopes, and

45:03

no matter how hard we try, we

45:05

can't put life together the way

45:07

it once was, but we

45:09

have to find a way to live now, forever

45:13

changed, maybe

45:15

with love and courage

45:17

and joy and hope, because what

45:19

other choice do we have, except

45:23

to move forward with a life we didn't

45:25

choose? And

45:27

Rob gets that. He has

45:30

been unmade by

45:33

the death of his precious, precious Henry,

45:36

and I feel so lucky that he shared a

45:38

bit of him and his grief and

45:40

his razor-sharp wit

45:43

with us today. So

45:45

before we go, you

45:48

know, my friends, that I love to

45:50

bless the crap out of you. So

45:53

here's a blessing for those spaces of deep

45:55

hope and unchangeable reality

45:57

and the... Who

46:00

am I now? So, here's a

46:02

blessing for when you've lost someone far

46:04

too soon. And

46:06

hey, that includes grandparents. You're allowed

46:09

to be very sad about grandparents. But

46:11

I do like it when people

46:13

are funny about

46:15

everything. All right, love. Here

46:18

we go. God,

46:21

this. This is

46:23

impossible. This grief

46:25

is too much to bear. If

46:28

there was a tight order to the world that you made,

46:31

it's come unspooled, and

46:33

no one will wind it up again. God,

46:37

I feel it coming. That

46:39

ache for the stories that will never be told,

46:42

and an anger rising when I remember

46:45

what never should have been. Worst

46:48

of all, God could

46:51

anything be worse. It

46:53

is so beautiful. The

46:55

way this grief is a language of love. I

46:59

am love sick with this much sorrow.

47:03

Teach me to speak this new mother tongue. Show

47:07

me how to memorize so I

47:09

can never forget what they

47:11

gave and what is gone, and what

47:13

we were owed by a world robbed

47:16

of their presence. And

47:19

hold me by the edges, for I am

47:21

coming apart. And

47:23

nothing but love will find

47:25

me. Love

47:28

you, my dears. Have

47:30

a lovely week. Hey,

47:44

so this is the part where I get to thank everyone, which

47:46

is my favorite, because I have a lot of people to thank.

47:49

I have really generous partners. I

47:52

have the folks at the Lilly Endowment

47:54

and the Duke Endowment who love supporting

47:56

storytelling about faith and life. And

47:59

I have an incredible. incredible academic home at Duke

48:01

Divinity School and a new

48:04

podcast network called Lemonata. Their

48:06

slogan is, when life gives you lemons,

48:08

listen to Lemonata. So yeah, big

48:11

fan. And I

48:13

have the most incredible team. And

48:15

it includes the Everly,

48:18

Everly is now my new favorite

48:20

word, wonderful, Jessica Ritchie, Harriet

48:22

Bloomman, Keith Weston, Glenn

48:24

Higginbotham, Brenda Thompson, Hope

48:26

Anderson, Kristen Bowser, Deb

48:29

Burt, and Katherine Smith. We

48:32

planned some really fun things for this fall,

48:34

and I really don't want you to miss it.

48:37

If you go to katebowler.com/newsletter, you can get

48:39

my free weekly newsletter and it's got all

48:41

kinds of stuff, insider information,

48:44

video clips from these episodes.

48:46

And these are fun because

48:48

this is like me and them in

48:50

person crying into

48:52

every possible sleeve. It's got

48:54

discussion questions, must read books, printables, all

48:57

kinds of bonus footage like this

48:59

one with videos of me and Rob. Also,

49:02

if you could take a minute,

49:04

it helps the podcast so much if

49:06

you don't mind leaving us a review

49:08

on Apple Podcasts or

49:10

Spotify. It just takes a couple

49:13

minutes, but it makes a huge difference to the success

49:15

of the podcast. And if you're

49:17

there, if you click on the subscribe button,

49:19

I'm making a mashy,

49:21

the button finger gesture right now, you

49:25

can subscribe to the podcast and then it

49:27

automatically gives you all new episodes when they

49:29

air every Tuesday. We

49:32

really love hearing your voice too. So if you want to

49:34

leave us a voicemail, we might even be able to use

49:36

it on the air. So give us a call

49:38

at 919-322-8731. Okay,

49:41

lovelies. Next

49:45

week, I'm going to be talking with the

49:47

wise and gentle parenting expert, Lisa

49:49

DeMoore. Seriously, you're going to want to take

49:51

notes on this one. She's got it going on.

49:55

In the meantime, come see me online

49:57

at Cate C. Bowler. Everything

50:00

happens with me. You need

50:02

me here. This

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I'm Liz Dunn. We're moms. And

50:55

we're food journalists. And in Pressure

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Cooker, we tackle some of the thorniest issues

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around how we feed our kids. How

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important is family dinner? And

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why do kids refuse to eat

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their vegetables? To find out,

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we're talking to experts and hearing from parents

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locked in the daily struggle to feed little

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people with big personalities. Listen

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to Pressure Cooker wherever you get your podcasts.