0:00

Welcome to Noble Blood, a production

0:03

of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild

0:05

from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion

0:07

advised.

0:12

It was in spring of eighteen o

0:14

two that Ludwig van Beethoven

0:16

realized he was beginning to go deaf.

0:20

In an effort to pull himself out of

0:22

a depression, he left Vienna

0:24

for a small village five miles

0:26

to the north to spend time

0:29

in nature and see if he could find

0:31

any musical inspiration. It

0:33

was on a walk through the countryside

0:36

that a melody popped into his head, a

0:38

theme in E flat major. Eventually,

0:42

over a year, that theme transformed

0:45

into a full symphony, Beethoven's

0:48

third titled Roika or

0:50

Heroic. People far

0:53

more knowledgeable about classical music

0:55

than I am celebrate the symphony

0:57

as groundbreaking, challenging, and

1:00

brilliant, a landmark

1:02

of Beethoven's career that I've seen

1:04

described as the first Romantic

1:07

symphony, marking the end of

1:09

the classical period. But

1:11

it wasn't originally titled

1:14

Eroika. It had an earlier

1:16

name, which Beethoven wrote himself

1:19

on the symphony's title page. As

1:22

soon as the work was completed in early

1:24

eighteen oh four, Symphonia

1:27

in Titulata Bonaparte Symphony

1:31

titled Bonaparte.

1:33

Though Beethoven was German living

1:36

in Austria, there was plenty

1:38

about Napoleon he found

1:40

inspiring. Napoleon

1:43

was only a year older than Beethoven,

1:45

and they had both come from families

1:47

outside the nobility, and they had

1:49

both risen in the ranks because of

1:52

their ability. As a young

1:54

man, Beethoven was inspired

1:56

by the promise of the French Revolution.

1:59

He read philosophy and celebrated

2:02

the possibility of a truly enlightened

2:05

state, But like so

2:07

many others in Europe, he became

2:09

disillusioned as he watched on and

2:12

saw the bloody excesses

2:14

of where the revolution ended

2:17

up. To Beethoven, Napoleon

2:20

was a striking and romantic

2:22

figure who had returned to France

2:24

from his military victories abroad and

2:27

was able to save the revolution

2:29

from itself. From

2:32

seventeen ninety five on, France

2:34

was governed by a system known as

2:36

the Directory, where there were five

2:39

directors and two legislative

2:41

bodies, but the government was

2:44

chaotic and inefficient. With

2:46

the exception of Napoleon's victories

2:48

abroad, France had suffered a

2:51

string of humiliating defeats,

2:53

trade routes were cut off, land was

2:56

sacrificed, and inflation was

2:58

beginning to escape the back of control.

3:02

In seventeen ninety nine, there was

3:04

a coup ostensibly organized

3:07

by one of the Directors, a

3:09

man popularly known as the

3:11

abbey cs. Cs

3:13

knew that the delicate Directory

3:16

was unstable, threatened

3:18

by Royalists on the right and Jacobean

3:21

on the left, and a new

3:23

government would need to be established

3:26

if the promises of the French Revolution

3:28

were to be preserved in any form.

3:31

And what better man was there to

3:34

join him in that coup than

3:36

the popular hero Napoleon

3:38

Bonaparte, the brilliant young

3:41

general who was met in the streets

3:43

with cheers when he returned

3:45

from Egypt. But

3:48

Napoleon orchestrated something

3:50

of a coup within a

3:52

coup. After manipulating

3:55

the legislative bodies of the Directory

3:57

to leave Paris, Napoleon

3:59

brought in armed grenadiers

4:02

to ensure that in the new government,

4:04

where there were supposed to be three consuls,

4:08

he Napoleon, would be the first

4:10

and most important consul.

4:13

It was only called a coup or

4:16

coup within a coup in hindsight,

4:19

At the time, many including

4:22

Beethoven, viewed Napoleon

4:24

as a heroic figure, saving

4:27

the French government from itself in

4:29

order to uphold republican ideologies.

4:33

Napoleon as consul was a

4:35

Romantic figure out of classical

4:37

antiquity, like a sage

4:40

Roman consul of old.

4:43

But then Beethoven got some bad

4:45

news. In December

4:48

eighteen o four, five years

4:50

after Napoleon became first consul

4:53

and less than a year after Beethoven

4:55

named his new symphony after him, Napoleon

4:59

declared himsel self emperor.

5:02

According to the most popular

5:04

version of the story, Beethoven

5:06

became enraged and shouted

5:08

quote, so he is no more than

5:11

a common mortal. Now he too

5:13

will tread underfoot all the rights

5:15

of men and indulge only his

5:17

ambition. Now he will think

5:19

himself superior to all men

5:22

and become a tyrant. Beethoven

5:25

scratched over the word symphony

5:27

titled Bonaparte with so much

5:29

force that his pen ripped

5:32

through the paper. The symphony

5:34

was renamed simply and vaguely

5:37

heroic Eroika. Napoleon

5:41

remains one of the most popular

5:43

and famous historical figures in

5:45

European history. Recently,

5:48

he was the center of Ridley Scott's

5:50

twenty twenty three film starring

5:52

Joaquin Phoenix. The

5:54

French public had a fairly

5:56

negative reaction to the film, which

5:59

might have had something to do with how strange

6:02

it must be for French speakers

6:04

to see Napoleon such

6:06

an iconic French figure speaking

6:09

English with a full American

6:11

accent. But the French

6:14

public's perspective on the real

6:16

historical Napoleon is

6:19

a little more complicated. Was

6:21

Napoleon the hero that France

6:24

needed at the time, a man

6:26

who preserved the ideals of the

6:28

revolution, encoding them into

6:30

the Napoleonic Code and giving

6:33

the nation the order it's so desperately

6:35

needed. Or was Napoleon

6:38

a military dictator who

6:40

dismissed a constitution he swore

6:42

to uphold when it suited him in

6:45

his quest for greater personal

6:48

power. I'm Danish

6:50

Swartz and this is noble

6:52

blood.

6:56

In order to explore Napoleon's

6:58

modern day reputae, especially

7:01

the way he's understood today in

7:03

France, I'm thrilled to

7:05

be talking about the Coup of eighteen

7:07

Brumaire, Napoleon's first major

7:09

jump to power. With Pascal

7:11

Confrovo of the French Embassy in Washington,

7:14

d C. I am so thrilled

7:17

to be here today talking to Pascal Confrovo,

7:19

who is the press counselor for the French

7:21

Embassy in Washington, d C. To talk

7:24

about Napoleon with me today.

7:26

Pascal, thank you so much for joining me.

7:28

Thank you for having me.

7:30

Napoleon obviously has such a

7:32

long and fascinating life. I

7:35

mean, I could do this entire podcast just

7:37

about episodes from his life,

7:39

but we're going to focus a little bit on the

7:41

coup. In English, we would say

7:44

November ninth, but it's called the Coup

7:46

of eighteen brumaire in French exactly.

7:49

And thank you for for inviting

7:51

us. What's what

7:53

caught our eyes and why we were

7:55

happy to talk with you that We're

7:58

always happy when Americans

8:00

like you and your audience are interested in

8:03

French history and French figures.

8:05

And we see that there is a big

8:08

curiosity on Napoleon

8:11

and more broadly on the French Revolution. Uh

8:13

and uh. And the film of Scott

8:16

of course, and that is that very well.

8:18

Yes, I mean, Napoleon is just one

8:20

of the most fascinating figures in

8:22

history. I thought the movie was

8:25

fun, but obviously they took some historical

8:27

liberties.

8:28

Did you see it?

8:29

I saw it. I watched it here of course before

8:32

before talking to you, And yeah, the

8:34

least I can say that it created

8:37

some debate in France and

8:40

also I guess in the US.

8:41

Yeah, I've heard that French people had had

8:44

very strong opinions on it.

8:46

A lot of persons were saying it it was less about

8:48

nepleonself, that about Napleon

8:51

and Jovishan, that it was about the love affair,

8:54

and that made somewhere advising

8:57

to to have a title that would be

8:59

Nepoleon josephin That makes

9:01

a lot of sense.

9:02

I also thought it was it's always a fun

9:05

decision on a movie's part to give

9:07

a character. Obviously

9:10

they're speaking English in the film, but Joaquin

9:12

Phoenix just speaks English with

9:14

no accent, and I think for some that was

9:16

a little disconcerting.

9:18

Yeah, and it's always for a French

9:21

speaking audience, it's always interesting to see

9:23

Napoleon speaks English. Indeed.

9:25

Yeah, well, let's let's fast

9:28

forward a little bit to the coup that

9:31

initially brought Napoleon to power, obviously

9:33

before he became an emperor. After

9:36

the French Revolution, Napoleon was a general

9:39

and served served

9:41

the Constitution after

9:43

the French Revolution, the Directory

9:46

and won massive victories

9:48

over in Egypt and returned

9:50

to Paris a hero. Can you speak

9:52

a little bit about what the

9:55

Directory was like and what France

9:57

was like when Napoleon returned from Egypt.

10:00

Yes, we was tver, and there was also

10:02

a lot of humility. Because I'm not speaking as a

10:04

historian here, but more as a civil

10:07

servants, and so I may

10:09

not have all the little details.

10:13

The date of eighteenth of Brumeer and

10:15

nineteenth brumer actually

10:17

because they could takes place on two days, is

10:19

often taught at the

10:22

end of the revolution in the French history, and

10:25

Napoleon at that time was one of the

10:28

youngest generals ever. He

10:31

was serving the Republic and was serving

10:34

among them also a man called Bajas,

10:37

and he was

10:39

coming back from Egypt.

10:43

It was the last military

10:45

operation he did, which was an

10:47

operation less military than also

10:49

a discovery. He had worked with him a lot of scientists

10:52

going to the pyramids. He

10:54

had discovered the Pierre deo Rosette, which

10:56

was the one afterwards that

10:58

allowed everyone to understand what

11:01

the hieroglyphs were meaning,

11:03

and so.

11:03

He published the Rosetta Stone.

11:06

Thank You, and

11:09

so he was coming with a great aura.

11:11

And this see also in the film

11:14

that he was winning. He

11:16

won some battle against

11:18

the englishing tool in seventeen ninety

11:20

three, which also brought

11:22

him a lot of a lot of fame.

11:24

And in seventeen ninety eight seventeen

11:27

ninety nine, you had a kind

11:29

of fatigue in in France, a

11:32

fatigue of the worlds, because the revolution were

11:34

also making was also a synonym

11:37

of wars in France, a

11:39

fatigue for

11:41

the economy also, and

11:44

I think he could feel that

11:46

that people were willing to

11:48

see, as we say, peace

11:50

outside and order inside.

11:53

And that's what he ran

11:55

on in a way in

11:58

seventeen ninety nine when he was coming back

12:00

from Egypt.

12:01

One thing that I think is so interesting is

12:04

Napoleon. You can obviously frame his actions

12:06

in so many different ways. One could

12:08

frame what he did in overthrowing

12:11

the Republic and the government of the Directory

12:14

as him trying to save the revolution.

12:16

This government was so unpopular, the

12:19

economic state in France

12:21

was unsustainable. You could say that by

12:24

claiming power he was saving

12:27

the government, saving the revolution, or

12:30

you could present this idea that he was

12:32

simply something of a military

12:34

dictator. What do you think is more

12:36

of the popular conception of

12:38

Napoleon in France as it's

12:40

sort of taught today.

12:42

See exactly what you say. He

12:44

was a master of communication also in

12:47

that day, and he was also the

12:49

one who wrote his own story history

12:51

before the historians to them, and

12:54

so he was very good at managing

12:56

the image he wanted the people to have

12:58

of him. And he has

13:01

the two party you're saying,

13:03

he's at the same time, and

13:05

the coup is embodying that, and the Empire

13:07

afterwards is embedding that that there

13:10

are some lessons taken from the

13:12

revolutions that will survive, the

13:14

human rights, the equality, the

13:17

end of the privileges Frost

13:19

the church had or the

13:22

nobility had, and

13:25

so this will survive. And so

13:27

he is in that aspect, he is

13:29

the heir of the revolution. He is

13:31

the one that will put

13:33

these results of the revolution in the long

13:35

term French political life.

13:37

And at the same time, yeah, he he

13:40

creates a regime that has nothing to

13:43

do with the republican That was very

13:45

that at the beginning, the Consulate has

13:49

the appearance of republican

13:51

then, which will in eighteen oh four become

13:54

after after publicits will

13:56

become an empire.

13:58

Absolutely.

13:59

One also interesting thing I feel

14:01

like as an American, I do feel like I have to

14:04

voice our little cameo that unfortunately,

14:06

part of the problem of the runaway inflation

14:09

in France and the

14:11

challenges that the French Republic

14:14

was facing economically was due to the

14:16

fact that after the American Revolution, the

14:18

American government decided not to

14:21

repay some of the loans the way they

14:23

were previously contracted, because

14:25

that contract had been with the French

14:27

king who was obviously no longer

14:29

in charge of the government.

14:31

So we had a little cameo there.

14:34

There are debates on that I want indulged in

14:36

it. Which is true is

14:38

that the two revolutions are very linked, very much

14:40

linked, and in spite of our histories

14:43

earlier seventeen seventy six, but with many French

14:45

persons taking also

14:49

a part it of course Lafayette

14:52

or Chambou, but also the ideas are

14:54

coming to France as well in

14:57

seventeen ninety nine a few years

14:59

letter is our revolution that

15:02

started with many things among

15:04

them was also public finances.

15:08

And so yes, there is definitely a link between

15:11

the two revolutions, and that also while

15:13

our two countries are so close in a way,

15:16

and say, all just alliars, but yes, indeed,

15:18

at that time your first ambassador

15:21

to Paris is better man Franklin, and he makes

15:23

he makes a crowd in Paris. Everyone

15:25

loves him. He's very good public diplomacy

15:27

at that time. Lafayette

15:30

is a style in the US.

15:33

I would I could even say that I think he's even

15:35

more stylen in the US that he's in France. But

15:38

he's more well known here than than

15:40

in France.

15:41

One more I find so fascinating whenever

15:44

American figures pop up in French history.

15:47

Talleyrand, who obviously is a is

15:49

a massively important figure in French

15:51

history, a man who survived regime

15:54

change after regime change, who initially

15:56

you know, helped Napoleon and his rise to

15:58

power.

16:00

Actoring the Republic.

16:01

Tallyrand actually had to resign as

16:03

Foreign Minister because he was one

16:06

could say, you know, politely requesting

16:09

or demanding a bribe of two

16:11

hundred and fifty thousand dollars from

16:13

three American envoys, and American

16:16

audiences might know one of the envoys

16:18

happened to be the future massive

16:20

Supreme Court Justice John Marshall

16:22

and I just love realizing that

16:24

two totally disparate historical

16:26

figures that you would learn about in two different

16:29

contexts actually interacted

16:31

in that way.

16:33

Yeah, and they learned

16:36

lessons from each other. They interacted,

16:39

Tanya, you work quitting Wimmy. It's

16:41

another so another French

16:43

figure less known than Napoleon, and

16:45

he plays in a way kind of continuity

16:48

in French diplomacy among different

16:50

regimes, starting from the Republic, so the Consulate

16:52

of the Empire, and then he plays also a role

16:54

in the restoration of the King.

16:57

I'm fascinated by Tallyrand. I remember

16:59

reading that there was sort of a

17:01

parody book or pamphlet that

17:04

came out ranking the

17:06

weather veins of French politics,

17:08

as in men who sort of changed their

17:11

alliances, and itally Rand was

17:13

top of the list.

17:14

Yeah. Yeah,

17:16

And he has also a mixed image, I guess

17:19

legacy for that.

17:21

I do always respect someone who is able

17:23

to survive in politics

17:25

the way he did, and he was going

17:28

back to the coup. He was a major

17:30

figure and ally of Napoleon.

17:33

Just to set the scene, the governmental

17:35

system was called the Directory.

17:37

There were two.

17:38

Government bodies, the Council of Ancients

17:40

and the five hundred, which was sort of the

17:43

upper and lower legislative bodies.

17:46

Napoleon I think recognized

17:48

among with other politicians at

17:50

the time that this government

17:53

was not sustainable for the reasons

17:55

we talked about. And Napoleon was such a popular

17:57

figure that if he was

18:00

sort of the spearhead of the coup, it

18:02

would be it would be successful. And so

18:04

he allied with a man known as Abb

18:06

s S. And again, if i'm if,

18:09

I'm I'm almost humiliated to be

18:11

attempting to do French pronunciation in

18:13

front of you. But what I love is that Napoleon,

18:16

even as these men were sort of building a

18:18

coup around Napoleon's popularity,

18:21

Napoleon was sort of planning a coup

18:24

within the coup to establish himself

18:26

as the primary power.

18:30

Exactly. And you see that also in the film I'll say

18:32

Ces and the Coup. He needed

18:35

what we say sword, He needed a saber to

18:37

operate, to operationalize what he was

18:40

thinking. And so Bonaparte said yes,

18:42

and they on the eighteenth of Brumeer,

18:45

everything happened

18:47

as as planned. Basically, they were resigning

18:50

the directors, so the executive branch

18:53

was collectively resigning for the one

18:55

who were among the coup, and for the one who were

18:57

not aware of the coup. They were but forced

18:59

to or under.

19:00

Custody little either bribes or

19:03

force.

19:05

Exactly like pressure, and

19:08

Napoleon was created.

19:11

The one who was in charge of the army protecting

19:14

Paris, and the council

19:16

of the five hundreds that you were mentioning earlier

19:19

was sent to Sanclue, which is a

19:21

city next to not far from

19:23

Paris, which was a bit further from Paris

19:25

to be more into a

19:28

neighborhood. So eighteenth of Rema works quite

19:30

well for the plan. It's more nineteenth

19:32

of Remare, which is a bit trickier, but maybe

19:35

you want to tell it's now.

19:36

Yeah, So step one goes according to plan.

19:38

They're able to pressure this council to

19:41

sort of get outside the city, come

19:43

to the suburbs as it were. I think

19:45

probably for a few reasons, you know,

19:48

to get away from the military support

19:50

that might undermine this coup. And

19:52

I believe if I'm correct, they were sort of able

19:54

to convince the council to

19:56

come out to the suburbs by saying

19:59

that there was a jack of in coup that was happening.

20:01

Because the Jacobin, the more extremest

20:04

revolutionary branch, had been ousted

20:06

from government a few months earlier, they

20:09

were able to sort of get

20:11

the legislative body out to the suburbs.

20:14

And then when the.

20:16

Legislative body realized

20:18

that Napoleon walked into

20:20

their chambers with a force

20:23

of military grenadiers, I

20:25

think they all sort of collectively realized,

20:27

oh, we weren't brought out here for our protection.

20:29

Something really extreme

20:31

is happening, and.

20:32

They welcome in. Welcome is

20:34

not a good word, but they are very violent,

20:37

a team of crazy. They expel him from

20:39

the from the from the room. They say

20:41

they treat him, they say that he's a dictator.

20:44

It seems that for a moment Bonaparte

20:47

is is UH losing

20:50

faith in him, in him, in

20:52

his good star. And then

20:54

there's a truck of of

20:56

of history where actually his brother

20:59

Lucien is a head of the Council

21:01

of the five hundred and UH,

21:03

and he's the one who who

21:05

has this stamina to

21:08

delay the vote that was going

21:10

by the five hundred that was going to outlaw

21:14

UH, to outlaw Bonaparte.

21:17

A bit like the same kind of votes that was

21:19

going that had outlawed Robes a

21:22

bit a few years earlier, and when

21:25

at that time, when you were outlawed, it was also meaning

21:27

a bit death at the same time. And

21:30

and he delayed, he delayed the vote,

21:33

and uh, and go take the guards

21:35

the to to

21:37

to come back in the in

21:39

the in the room and expel.

21:42

Actually the h a big

21:44

part of the of this, this five

21:47

hundred. And then they declare with

21:50

the one who stay and who are supported,

21:52

They declared the end of the directory,

21:54

and they give the executive power to three

21:57

consoles. Uh did

22:00

you crew end? But apart so the first

22:02

part of zuku. Yeah.

22:03

And just to interrupt and backtrack

22:06

a little bit, that vote when

22:08

the Council of five hundred were faced with Napoleon

22:10

coming in with soldiers and recognized

22:13

that he was attempting to overthrow the constitution

22:16

and they were about to declare him an outlaw. I'm

22:18

so glad you brought up what happened

22:21

to Robespiear because I find it so fascinating

22:23

the contrast and how the two men responded.

22:26

Robespear attempted suicide.

22:29

I think actually the.

22:29

Film depicted this quite accurately. Took

22:32

a pistol attempted suicide and

22:35

failed and just just blew off his

22:37

jaw, which was a very grisly scene.

22:39

But Napoleon, with the aid of his brother,

22:42

was able to slip out, avoid the vote

22:44

and then actually use the

22:48

anger of the legislative

22:50

body to rally his troops. I

22:52

think Napoleon's the

22:54

loyalty that he inspired in his troops

22:57

was such a major drive in his

22:59

ability to to breach power, because as

23:01

he came.

23:02

Out slightly worse

23:05

for wear, literally.

23:06

I think the another thing the

23:08

movie accurately portrayed was that the council

23:11

kind of tried to physically attack him, and

23:13

he was able to use how sort

23:15

of bloodied and ripped up he was, with

23:17

his brother Lucian pointing at him and saying, look

23:19

what they tried to do to him, rally

23:22

the troops to come

23:24

back in within a show of force.

23:27

And Lucien at at that time it's

23:29

saying that zie one who are attacking Buonaparte

23:31

aren't the real traitors and that they

23:33

are working for England,

23:35

which is of course the worst you

23:39

can say at that time.

23:40

Oh even imagine, of course, well

23:42

who else would want to betray

23:44

the military hero Napoleon.

23:46

Exactly, and you see all these scenes

23:49

in the film.

23:50

One thing that I think is so interesting is obviously

23:52

the idea of the coup was that there would be

23:55

three consoles, as you mentioned,

23:57

but Napoleon fairly quickly

24:00

manipulated the constitution so that he,

24:03

as first counsel, would have much

24:05

more power than the other two.

24:07

Exactly. That's what you you call I think the cup

24:10

within the cup, right, And yeah,

24:13

the three conculs are not on the

24:15

same are not at the same level, and

24:17

he will very swiftly

24:19

consolidate his power, his grips with

24:21

the adoption of a

24:24

new constitution, the consition

24:26

of the year eight we

24:29

are in the revolutionary still calendar

24:31

at that time, and which gives

24:33

him the authority to

24:36

have the first draft of the law.

24:39

And also he gives him also the visibility.

24:41

I think in all this there is

24:43

also a communication part which is always

24:45

very important at that time,

24:48

and he will have the

24:50

leader on the image

24:52

and then the comes very quickly and so yes,

24:54

and are much

24:57

less well known, and

24:59

I think he he differently worked for that.

25:02

Yes, one scene that stuck

25:04

with me from the movie that of course was pulled directly

25:06

from history because there are so many

25:08

scenes where you're like, well, this is so cinematic,

25:11

surely they just invented this. But

25:13

when Napoleon sort of stumbled out

25:16

of the Council of five hundred, when they sort of attacked

25:18

him and Lucian was trying to rally the

25:20

troops, Lucian grabbed a sword

25:22

and said, I will kill Napoleon

25:24

myself if he's a trader, And

25:27

that, of course inspired a

25:29

lot of trust, and that to

25:31

me also speaks to I think

25:34

from the outside. So please correct

25:36

me if I'm mistaken about the French perspective,

25:39

But I think Napoleon really was

25:41

able to repair a sense of national

25:44

pride and nationalism. After

25:46

the Revolution, France had lost

25:48

a lot of territories. Military

25:51

defeats sort of stripped them of the territories

25:53

that they had won at the end of the

25:55

eighteenth century, like seventeen ninety

25:57

six and seven, they were cut off from

26:00

German and Italian markets. The so called

26:02

you know, Second Coalition was sort of turning

26:05

on France and Napoleon just as

26:08

a figure because he had

26:10

come from these amazing military victories,

26:12

because he was speaking so eloquently

26:15

about the power of France and invoking

26:17

these political symbols meant

26:19

to evoke you know, ancient Rome.

26:22

I think they're I mean, reading

26:24

from the outside, it seems very

26:27

inspiring at a moment that there was a

26:29

great need for national pride.

26:32

Yes among

26:34

the results of the Napoleon movement and

26:36

actually of the revolution moment just before.

26:39

He is a creation of a nation, of

26:41

a modern nation, a nation which is

26:43

not only embodied by a king, by

26:46

a monarchy, but a nation because it's a regroupment

26:49

of people that recognize

26:52

themselves as member of a one entity.

26:55

And so it's exactly at this moment, and

26:57

he's fostering them these

27:00

feeling of these nationals or

27:02

patriotic feelings, and so

27:04

he does it actually in France,

27:07

but also in the just before

27:09

with his first successors, and just also

27:12

afterwards, actually in first eighteen

27:14

andreds. He is fostering

27:16

the German national

27:20

sentiment or the Italian national

27:23

sentiments. At that time, both Germany

27:25

and Italy were not one state,

27:27

so they were federally, they

27:29

were kingdoms, sometimes

27:31

depending together, sometimes

27:34

completely standing alone, and he's

27:36

fostering that also at the same

27:38

time to kill, for instance, the former Holy

27:42

Empire German

27:45

Empire, which was existing for since

27:48

Shannon mine for a

27:50

very long time, for more than one thousand years,

27:53

and the same time in Italy where

27:55

they were like small kingdoms, and he is

27:58

the instrument that is ring, among

28:00

other things, the feeling of an

28:03

Italian identity

28:05

and nationality.

28:07

Absolutely, I think that's so interesting.

28:09

America is such a young country,

28:11

obviously compared to Europe, but then

28:14

you see that actually Germany

28:17

as we know it today and United

28:19

Italy are more recent than

28:21

I think people realize. Italy wasn't unified

28:23

until what was it, eighteen seventy.

28:26

I think that's so fascinating to point

28:28

out that Napoleon was a force behind

28:31

some of that unifying sentiment.

28:33

Can I ask? I think that.

28:35

Even though obviously America

28:37

and France were such great allies

28:39

during the American Revolution, I

28:42

think that over the centuries,

28:44

America has sort of aligned itself with England

28:47

and historically at least has sort

28:49

of an Anglophilic perspective on history.

28:52

And so I think when most people learn about

28:54

Napoleon, it's through an English

28:56

lens. They only, you

28:59

know, people who are aren't aren't history bops,

29:01

people who just know the broad headlines.

29:04

I think that Napoleon was short,

29:06

which you know, he was average height. That was sort

29:08

of British propaganda, and they

29:10

sort of see him as the the

29:13

strong man of Europe, this dictator sort

29:15

of the way that I think he's he's more

29:17

understood in in England and Great Britain.

29:20

Can you sort of speak to how Napoleon

29:23

is viewed today in France?

29:25

I would say you to come back on your first

29:27

part of your of your question that yes,

29:31

there is, there is, of course, uh maybe

29:33

a British lecture of what you

29:35

what you see of Napoleon. But I

29:37

would also say that you and we

29:40

see it that you have a French lecture of

29:42

of of all service history. When we see

29:45

how popular the motto oldest

29:47

allies is. How you see when Nafayette

29:49

is is celebrated here,

29:53

when you see maybe the importance

29:55

of ruschabu uh celebrated

29:58

on the on the on the East coast. I

30:00

mean, I maybe it's not generally,

30:03

but we at the West coast, at the East

30:05

coast, sorry, and in Washington, we feel,

30:07

we feel it. We we see

30:10

this this stronger

30:13

proximity. And actually I don't

30:15

know if Lafayette and Napoleon were very

30:17

closed. I guess they met a few times,

30:19

but they were not really not really

30:22

closer both of them. Both of them were

30:24

very young. When Lafaette came he was I

30:26

think twenty three or twenty four in

30:30

in particuping in Yorktown, And when

30:33

Napoleon became general, he was also twenty four,

30:35

so that you're really, really, really young.

30:37

I think one of the brothers

30:40

of Napoleon settled afterwards

30:42

in New Jersey, or so Joseph,

30:45

yeah, went to New Jersey, I guess, but Naplone

30:48

himself never went to the US, And

30:50

I guess Lafayette was seeing the US more as a

30:53

as a land of opportunity, whereas a

30:55

Nepalon was maybe seeing it more as a land

30:58

of conquest, a

31:00

conquest. But I say because

31:02

he was. He sold the Louisiana in eighteen

31:05

oh three. You remember that, of course, in a in

31:07

a.

31:07

Very generous deal to us. I

31:09

will say.

31:11

Gigantic, which

31:14

was on the left bank of Mississippi, I frond the

31:16

west bank of Mississippi. So

31:19

just to just to remind in the way, there

31:21

is a kind of American

31:24

history of Napoleon that

31:26

you could say, an American angle of Naphleon

31:29

history that actually

31:31

as a that I can hear when

31:34

I'm when I'm here, and then now I'm

31:36

I do.

31:37

I'm so sorry to interrupt, but I do.

31:38

I actually, I think that's a very important point,

31:40

just to reiterate that it was Napoleon who

31:42

sold Thomas Jefferson

31:45

the massive I mean,

31:47

the Louisiana purchase was a massive

31:49

swath of what makes up the United States.

31:51

So I think the double the size of the US

31:53

by then.

31:55

Absolutely, if I if you, if

31:58

any listeners who don't actually remember

32:00

the actual map, just google the Napoleon

32:03

the Louisiana purchase and you will see

32:06

how vast that amount of land

32:08

is.

32:08

That then, of course was explored by Lewis

32:11

and Clark.

32:12

But it's, uh, it's fascinating

32:15

that Napoleon just sort of obviously

32:17

he was distracted by affairs happening in Europe,

32:19

and I think saw America

32:21

as a bit of a an albatross at

32:23

that moment, like a little bit of a distraction, but

32:26

gave us a great deal.

32:28

And then on the second part of your question, where you're saying,

32:30

Okay, what's the image we have, it's

32:33

in an image which is a complex.

32:35

I'd say you have an angle, which

32:38

is artistry. We

32:40

find, for instance, you

32:42

have this famous painting of David,

32:44

which is the crowning of the of

32:46

Napoleon and Jeordiphoax.

32:48

Napoleon crowning himself, and

32:54

so this is.

32:55

A painting that

32:57

everyone knows that. For instance, it

32:59

was as the case a few decades ago. It's

33:01

less the case now. You had some

33:05

persons really learning all the battles.

33:07

You know, it was a kind of part of the

33:09

how history was taught or learned. So

33:12

it was going from I don't know, Hotlits to Marango

33:14

to also the defeat

33:18

the Mosque Va, the Russian

33:20

campaign or traffic down.

33:22

But you had this I think it's

33:24

a bit less now the

33:26

case that we learned of him, we

33:29

learn of him also about the results.

33:33

So all this kind of what we could master Grant.

33:35

I don't know how to translate that really granite mass.

33:38

It's the kind of big institution

33:40

that he created and that survived

33:43

afterwards. You know, in the nineteenth century, I think

33:45

we in France we tried every kind

33:47

of regime possible, from an empire to republic,

33:50

to kingdom to everything, and

33:52

these kind of institutions survived. You

33:55

had the civil code, for instance, that he created

33:57

and that survived and it still exists. Now you have

33:59

this creation of the Federal Reserve,

34:02

which is called band de France. But you

34:05

had the creation of the Lease, which is a

34:08

high school, which

34:10

was very different at that time. It was quite a

34:12

bit military, but we still survive. Now,

34:14

we had the creation of the institution of the prefet.

34:16

You don't have prefe here, but it would be a kind

34:19

of of governor in a state

34:21

that would be appointed by the federal

34:23

state and not elected by his constituent,

34:26

and that would represent that would represent

34:28

more the capital of the federal capital

34:31

than the So all these institutions

34:34

still still exist. And we also learn

34:37

of course by the

34:41

the part which are darker, such

34:43

as haiti or slavery.

34:46

And because it's a very important and

34:48

I think that's where we are in France to

34:51

give the closest

34:53

to reality to truce history

34:56

that we can do.

34:57

Yeah, I mean, because Napoleon is he's

35:00

a fascinating figure, I think because of

35:02

his many contradictions. Obviously, the

35:05

Napoleonic Code was so

35:07

vital to upholding, you

35:09

know, basic French rights. And even though

35:11

Napoleon initially upheld the

35:14

revolutionary ban on slavery, he did

35:16

at a certain point undo that and

35:18

and reinstitute slavery in the in

35:21

the French colonies.

35:22

Yeah, exactly. And so this is something that we

35:24

don't put under the run at all. This is something that

35:26

we uh that we learn are

35:29

among everything, and so it's always

35:31

also interesting. So you have this reality and then you

35:33

have the willyas of how

35:35

history is stalled about him, because I

35:38

was sing also at the beginning that he was among the he

35:41

was the first also to tell his own story, the

35:43

memoirs, the own numoir when

35:45

he was on

35:47

the Santa Anna island after the after

35:49

his fall, and then also

35:53

so many historians on there.

35:55

It's one of the of the subjects

35:57

in the French history which is the richest,

35:59

I mean in so many people

36:01

who went on there. And so you have some

36:04

who who like and who will

36:06

try to keep on in

36:08

the wake of the strong man who

36:12

and tried to say, oh, France at that time was strong.

36:14

And you will have the others

36:16

who will who will

36:18

go more on the

36:21

institution that we that that he built.

36:23

And so you have in

36:26

a way tell me what the

36:28

image of Nemylon, of Nepoleon you have,

36:30

and I will tell you who.

36:31

You are that's brilliant, Thank

36:33

you. I mean that, that's what a perspective I

36:35

think. Napoleon is absolutely something

36:37

of a cipher. It's something of a

36:40

In English, we would call it a Rorjack test, where

36:42

you can look at him and what you

36:46

well, Pascal, thank you so much for joining

36:48

me. This was such a fascinating conversation, and

36:50

I'm so happy to get to talk about

36:52

one of my favorite historical figures, Napoleon

36:54

with you.

36:55

Thank you, thank you so much. And at the Frenchiman,

36:57

see, we are always glad when in

37:00

the US you are interested in

37:02

French history, and in this case in the French

37:04

history which is European, his world

37:07

history also, but also something very linked

37:10

to American history at that.

37:12

Time, incredibly linked to American

37:14

history. And please come back at any time

37:16

and talk more.

37:20

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37:27

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37:39

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37:41

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