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Dr Pepper at KELOLAND

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dot com. Enter today with con

0:32

artists. We all

0:34

deal with lies and manipulation. We all

0:37

bring very deep

0:40

personal experience to

0:42

the subjects that we cover. So I've been wanting to

0:45

do something like this forever. Thank you

0:47

both for joining me. Can we

0:49

just start off by introducing ourselves and saying

0:52

who we are and what we do?

0:55

Roberta, we start with you. Yeah,

0:57

sure. I'm Roberta I

0:59

was in Lula Rich. I talk about pyramid schemes,

1:01

cults, fraud scams, all of that on my podcast

1:03

Life After MLM, which both of

1:05

you have been guests on. Yes,

1:07

it's amazing. Thank you. It's a great show.

1:09

And I know a lot of my listeners

1:11

have come over from there. So thank you.

1:13

There's a good crossover. Happy to have you

1:15

on my feed. They'll be happy to see

1:17

you on my feed. Tara, tell

1:20

us who you are and what you do. So

1:22

I have a bigger podcast

1:24

that I was a part of

1:26

originally called the Dirty John Podcast.

1:29

I was episode six in it,

1:31

Tara, where I

1:34

ended up taking down my attacker

1:36

in self-defense and it

1:38

turned into a real wind of me starting

1:40

my own podcast and meeting all of you

1:42

guys. Incredible. Yeah, a small podcast that some

1:44

of you true climb listeners may have heard

1:47

of the Dirty John Podcast.

1:49

Yeah, the real small podcast. Otherwise

1:51

known as a massive cultural phenomenon.

1:54

So, yeah, I wanted to just start

1:57

off on one of the big themes.

2:00

all of our work and in this

2:02

experience, these experiences that we've had are

2:04

just ending up

2:06

in these situations where it's like

2:09

a lie, a group

2:11

of lies, and not to a normal

2:13

degree, but to a completely

2:15

life consuming alternate reality

2:17

degree. Right. And I

2:20

wonder what do you think, I

2:22

think we all have the same

2:24

experience where people look at our

2:26

situation and think, if I

2:29

was in that situation, it would never

2:31

be me. I would never fall

2:33

for it. So Tara, like in your case, maybe

2:35

like your, in your mom, but like, there's

2:38

a little bit of schadenfreude I think when people are

2:40

consuming these stories, like I would never fall for it.

2:43

I'm smarter than that. So I want to know,

2:45

maybe starting with you Tara, like what would you say is

2:47

like the misconception

2:50

about maybe people thinking that they could never be

2:52

a victim of a scam or a victim of

2:54

a big lie? Well, I

2:57

think it's really interesting

2:59

because what

3:01

people related to with my story

3:03

is that so many people

3:05

had a quote unquote, dirty John in their life.

3:07

And I don't really like to use that word

3:10

for a narcissist or

3:12

just like a psychological liar,

3:14

because John to me was

3:17

my attacker, but someone's had a dirty something

3:19

in their life. I don't

3:21

mind that at all. You know, a dirty Kelly

3:23

or a dirty Jacob or something

3:26

like that. I don't mind if you make

3:28

that word unique to yourself, but

3:30

that dirty John is unique to

3:32

me, my attacker. And I

3:35

think that a lot of the interest

3:38

in my story was I could

3:41

be that person actually. And

3:43

so it's kind of the opposite in a

3:46

sense from me is that, wow, I could

3:48

be that person. I don't think that they

3:50

think that they could be the person that

3:52

survives, but they don't

3:54

want to end up in

3:56

the ground. So It sounds like you've

3:58

had the experience where.? People

4:01

just. Merely.

4:03

Relates to the story a and put themselves

4:05

right and at and sort of their bit

4:07

for the. Grace. Of God. Oh yes,

4:09

anything. Know that's all a part of.

4:11

like the coffers and the covers. the

4:14

control and insights he's perpetrators had the

4:16

same and much the same kind of

4:18

like guidelines that the law says Sky

4:20

and Roberta I'm wondering I think specifically

4:22

for Mm lens. I think. There is

4:25

such an element of shot invited.

4:27

Because it's one of those things where you know

4:29

and I think there's some of the from the

4:31

kids say deal it's who were when my you're

4:34

looking at us facts if you're just looking at

4:36

as an outside observer. You're not in

4:38

that moment where you're emotionally vulnerable. You're

4:40

not in the situation you're looking at

4:42

it. You know. Twenty twenty bottles I'd

4:45

it seems. Very. Easy to say like

4:47

oh the data is there None of these

4:49

companies you know are like nobody makes money

4:51

And these companies except for the people of

4:53

the top as a pyramid scheme. Like.why did

4:56

you fall for it? Like what do

4:58

you think is wrong with the way

5:00

people flame like you are world that

5:02

you talk about. I. Just

5:05

think that a lot of people are automatic

5:07

to be like I would never fall for

5:09

that like my mom did it. I would

5:11

never fall for it. And they don't really

5:13

understand how sophisticated these games are. And.

5:17

Really, anybody can fall for it. I mean, I've

5:19

heard stories of doctors and lawyers and tell me

5:21

that they're not smart, right? Like a doctor or

5:23

lawyer said, be smart enough not fall for anything

5:26

like this, but it really has nothing to do.

5:28

With. Anything but your vulnerability.

5:31

And if you are vulnerable in the

5:33

moment that the right scam, cold fraud,

5:36

whatever comes around like you are absolutely

5:38

susceptible to it. And. I've

5:40

had people v like yeah I didn't think

5:42

I was ever susceptible, but I was in

5:44

this bad relationship or I joined this organization

5:46

or this group and it became really cozy

5:48

and I didn't see it and it doesn't

5:51

happen overnight. It is that a slow. Crawl.

5:54

And so people don't even realize they're getting

5:56

sucked into these things until it's too late.

5:59

And. So when. tell me like, oh, I'm too

6:01

smart, or I'm too educated, or I'm too

6:03

this or that. I go, well, you'd be

6:05

surprised. Yeah. Yeah. And I think where

6:07

like mine falls, because I was thinking about like the

6:09

Venn diagram of our three shows, you know, and

6:11

I think like, Tara, I've had that same experience

6:13

with a lot of people, you know, who've reached

6:15

out and said like, even if they're not specifically

6:18

a victim of my child's and by proxy

6:20

abuse, they recognize a lot of those traits

6:23

in their parents, that narcissism that control the

6:25

kind of attention getting behavior, those kind of things.

6:27

And so I think a lot of people do

6:29

relate. And then I think there's also the thing

6:31

that sort of works against trying to get people

6:33

to understand this, which is that they don't understand

6:36

how do doctors fall for it.

6:39

That's the thing that you hear

6:41

all the time. And you don't

6:43

realize like how set up the

6:45

system is for this abuse, right?

6:47

Like how vulnerable the system itself is

6:49

to the abuse, right? Because you spend

6:51

15 minutes with your child's

6:53

pediatrician, they're so reliant on parents to tell them,

6:56

you know, what's going on with their child

6:58

and so much of pediatrics is based off of that. So

7:00

you just like, and I find like, usually when you can

7:02

kind of like ground it like that for people, they're like,

7:04

Oh, yeah, but it's like the idea of like smart

7:06

people being fooled is hard

7:08

to metabolize sometimes. And I think

7:11

also, we overestimate people's decision making

7:13

based on logic or data or

7:15

facts. And like the reality is,

7:18

we make decisions based on a whole

7:21

complex set of mostly emotional reasons. And that's

7:23

all humans. It doesn't matter like how logical

7:25

of a thinker you believe yourself to be.

7:28

We are also susceptible, and especially in the

7:30

wrong moment, you know, like you were when

7:32

you got pulled into an MLM, like, you

7:34

know, your mom was when she got pulled

7:37

into that relationship. And like, you know, I've

7:39

been throughout various points in my life. And

7:41

then if we have, you know, someone who

7:43

deceives us while we're growing up

7:46

with them, that sets you up for further things.

7:48

So it's like, I think it's really good to

7:50

bring like, these stories are weird, they are like,

7:53

we can talk about kind of the ethics of this. Obviously,

7:55

there is like, a quote like entertainment,

7:57

and that's the end. Podcasts

8:00

I get it they are fascinating a

8:02

compelling but I'd say bringing that empathy

8:05

of like if you think this can

8:07

be like you are wrong vs and

8:09

then you know we all also bring

8:11

this really strong. Personal.

8:13

Connection to the top ex and

8:15

that can I think see all

8:17

that has it's pros and cons

8:19

right to conceal like really good

8:21

personal insight he and ability to

8:23

empathize into interview other people have

8:26

been through the same experience and

8:28

it's also feel like bag and

8:30

so I wonder if you know

8:32

we're burning like how to use

8:34

and all were not. Talking.

8:36

About this constantly and revisiting. What

8:38

is, you know, a pretty complicated.

8:41

Period of your own Maya laid How do

8:43

you. Handle. Having this

8:45

be com basically your entire professional

8:47

life. Is really interesting

8:49

because I didn't think this would ever

8:52

happen. but it's I'm very thankful. I'm

8:54

grateful for it. I see what I

8:56

do to not like get burnt out

8:59

on certain topics is I switched it

9:01

up a lot. And.

9:04

I don't do a lot of episodes on Google

9:06

Rose specifically just because it is so triggering says.

9:08

I'm in a mood I'm like oh yeah to

9:10

there's a good story. Let's tell a good story

9:12

but for the most part late. All

9:14

of the stories are so similar and

9:16

all as the control tactics are so

9:19

similar that I like to show. Besides.

9:22

Continuation of Abuse Just a not everybody's been

9:24

an animal am mean it might have been

9:27

an instant messages and so they're like fascinated

9:29

like what is this but they don't understand

9:31

the control but maybe they've had an abusive

9:33

relationship or he grew up in like an

9:36

evangelical church that was really cold tea or

9:38

something like that and so they can see

9:40

the similarities and I can tell stories about

9:42

Emma Lambs and then people that are like

9:45

in different denominations of different churches will like

9:47

reach out and say oh my gosh it's

9:49

so similar and for me being able to.

9:51

Branch. Out of. The

9:54

topic I'm mainly talk about in have

9:56

the most information and knowledge and experience

9:58

and and to talk about. Like.

10:00

Intersection or topics. And this Venn

10:03

diagram that's like almost like closely

10:05

resembles a circle. To. Talk

10:07

about that one is really great for me because I

10:09

get a little bit of a break for I'm like

10:11

it. It's not just like Amylin for after I'm I'm

10:13

sorry. I. Did to learn

10:16

new things I get to

10:18

even sometimes. Free. Traumatize myself

10:20

and way I didn't know existed and

10:22

I'm like oh well, there's a trigger,

10:24

there's some in a unpacked, so it's

10:26

actually kind of enjoy that I like

10:28

going. oh why does this sugar me.

10:31

Let's. Talk about it and let's dig

10:33

into this. So I really to think

10:35

like the way that I stay away

10:37

from being to consumed. Is.

10:40

by branching out. And

10:42

breaching into those other topics so I'm actually

10:44

learning at the same time as opposed to

10:46

see like a i know this, I've been

10:49

through it and I talk about like Scientology

10:51

and things that I'm fascinated by but I

10:53

don't really specifically understand other way and that

10:55

to me a sec. The fun part run

10:58

like of him stepping out of my comfort

11:00

zone to learn about something else and even

11:02

though it's sometimes even heavier than what I

11:04

was talking about before because there isn't that

11:06

personal connection, I'm able to. Be.

11:09

A little light less by this

11:11

and dig into that hop it

11:13

and. Learn more and talk about. Heavier

11:15

and more difficult. Things because I don't have

11:18

ever since accents and enough that makes sense. Yeah,

11:20

it's as and I think you know for me

11:22

obviously like the topic. of my So's incredibly have the

11:24

right size for most obvious as so her have had

11:26

the no one wants to talk about it which is.

11:29

Sort. Of I can say that

11:32

someone needed to us and

11:34

Palestine. That led. With.

11:36

Our stories. They. Meet

11:39

of the stories always gonna be really her

11:41

effect between. For one thing, we always try

11:43

and like not spend a lot of time

11:45

on the gratuitous staff. Rag weed on hostile.

11:47

Eggs and a ton of time. You know will say

11:49

how bad it was. right? It's important. people understand how

11:51

serious it as a life threatening spina we don't want

11:53

going to like all the details of every single surgery

11:55

and like a lot of the media coverage is that

11:57

way right and ago i think that's very problematic And

12:00

I think at the heart of it,

12:02

these are really complicated family

12:04

stories and family dynamics are something

12:06

that's endlessly fascinating to me. And

12:09

they're also stories of like, you know, we're trying

12:11

to know Tara's really your area too, like survival

12:13

and these moments of resilience, moments

12:16

of human connection, people that did try and

12:18

help, people that did help, there are those

12:20

really beautiful moments in there. And

12:22

yeah, and I have this sort of endless curiosity

12:24

about families, about

12:27

communities, about how we deal

12:29

with taboos. And so I think

12:31

like those things, you kind of have to find those

12:33

like little off ramps. You're not just like, okay, here's

12:35

another case. And again, like you said with the MLM

12:37

thing, I mean, the crazy thing about Munchausen cases, they

12:40

all sound like beat for beat. So familiar. And

12:42

that was so shocking to me when I first

12:45

got into it with my own story. And I

12:47

was like, when I first met

12:49

this group of professionals back in 2020, when I joined

12:51

this committee, and I was like, buckle

12:53

up, you know, here's the story. And I just was

12:55

looking at them all like nodding at me going like,

12:57

yep, yep, just going, oh, check, check, check. And now

12:59

that I've looked at all these certain dozens of stories,

13:02

I'm like, the premature birth defeating to

13:04

the mysterious this that the second sibling that

13:06

you just like, it's like they all just

13:08

are so there's it's like there's a place.

13:10

So it's like, you couldn't just regurgitate that,

13:12

you know, over and over again, or you

13:14

would exhaust yourself probably fossil listener. And like,

13:16

it is a challenge, like kind of keep

13:18

creating unless you're finding those other avenues to

13:20

go to. And I wonder, like,

13:22

Tara, for you in particular, I mean, certainly, like,

13:25

Roberta and I have our own PTSD from what we've been

13:27

through. And you know, it's not sort of a siding skill.

13:29

But I mean, for you, this is an

13:32

intensely traumatic experience that you had, so

13:34

education with this person that ended up

13:36

with you killing him in self defense.

13:38

And that's obviously a massively traumatic thing

13:40

to have been through and all of

13:43

the lead up to that, right? And

13:45

this is a story you've told like many

13:48

times now on like very big stages, like,

13:50

how did you know when it was the

13:52

right time for you to tell that story? And like,

13:54

how do you protect yourself as you're telling that story?

13:57

During the time when I was trying to think of Is

14:00

this what I want to talk about? I

14:04

got approached by the LA Times and

14:06

we said no to people before. We said no

14:08

to like Hannah Fryer. We said

14:11

no to her. We said no to so many people and

14:13

we actually have lawyers on everything to sue

14:15

them if my name came out.

14:18

And then Christopher Gofford reached out

14:20

to my mom. Then my

14:22

mom reached out to me and I

14:26

was very involved in the church during the time.

14:29

I went like three times a week. I

14:31

was on my healing journey doing

14:33

EMDR and I was really at a great

14:36

spot in my life. So I was like,

14:38

okay, I've done enough healing where I think

14:40

it's time to talk about it and then

14:42

I prayed on it. And I

14:44

just had like the answer be like,

14:47

okay, this is going to help

14:49

other women. And I

14:51

was like, okay, I don't know why or how

14:53

it could, but like that's the message that I'm

14:55

being told right now. And

14:58

so I've overshared my story, you know,

15:01

and it's really crazy

15:03

because the brain compartmentalizes

15:06

trauma. And so I,

15:08

as I started going through it, telling

15:10

the story, more and more stuff comes

15:12

out and even now, where

15:14

now it's really great

15:16

to tell your story. It's cathartic, but

15:18

you also have to realize when you're

15:21

burnt out from it and when it

15:23

becomes retriggering all the time. And

15:25

now it's at the point where it's retriggering

15:28

all the time and I'm having certain flashbacks

15:30

and it doesn't help and it doesn't help

15:32

with other situations in my life. And

15:35

then on top of that, because I had

15:37

that big trauma and I have done so

15:39

much healing, I found out

15:41

that I was actually sexually

15:44

molested as a child. And

15:46

so that adds like another layer on

15:48

the trauma. And so like, you know,

15:50

with me having survivor squad that's now

15:53

on a hiatus, it was

15:55

really great to have a kinship with

15:57

those survivors, but also, you know, When

16:00

you're having on something so similar sometimes, you

16:02

start to relate. It's

16:05

kind of like a therapy session with

16:07

another survivor. And you,

16:09

at least for me, I'm thinking, okay,

16:12

I'm relating so much to this. I can't

16:14

share so much of my story. I have

16:16

to figure out questions to bring it back

16:18

onto her because it's about her. And

16:21

so I may share a little bit,

16:23

this happened. I felt this way when

16:25

this happened. Did you feel that way

16:27

with your situation? So that we

16:29

can kind of get a genesis

16:31

of what the trauma is and

16:34

how to move past it

16:36

in a sense. Yeah,

16:38

I love that. And so it sounds like you've

16:40

had, and I've certainly had this as well, where

16:42

sort of like you do get more

16:44

access to things I'll come back to you and you'll just be

16:46

like kind of, I mean, really in it. And sometimes that happens

16:48

in the middle of an interview. And

16:51

I think part of sort of the skill set

16:53

of being a podcaster that's talking about something that

16:55

you relate to so hard is figuring out,

16:58

okay, how do you compartmentalize

17:00

in that moment? Because I mean, it's

17:02

really beautiful to talk to people who've

17:04

had shared experiences, especially if it's something really

17:06

specific and strange and a real big bad,

17:09

as I think of them. You

17:11

know, it's like, it's really like to be able to tell

17:13

that story and not have that person freak

17:15

out or get really upset or think it's

17:17

really strange or just be like, yeah, me too.

17:19

I mean, that's a really beautiful thing, right? But

17:22

then, like, as you said, you as the host

17:24

of a show want to make sure

17:26

that you're creating a situation where you're

17:29

making space for that person's story, right? And

17:31

that can be really challenging. And I

17:33

think, like, probably I'm sure that

17:35

all of us, as we've been going along this

17:37

journey of making this thing, we've gotten

17:39

better at it. I mean, I really, in my

17:41

whole interview, I think Paulie said it was so

17:43

long because I just was like, so much of

17:45

it. We were just like talking back and forth.

17:47

And I was like, oh, wait, your sister did

17:50

that. Like, my sister did that. And I mean, it was really

17:52

great for the two of us, but I was kind of like,

17:54

okay, like, as I've gone forward, I'm like, I've kind of learned

17:56

to not like, you know, be quite so in it. And

17:58

it is, it does create a lot of sense. really special

18:00

moments. I mean, there's something to be said

18:02

for that, but it can be like, yeah,

18:05

you don't want to sort of make every

18:07

episode about you. That

18:10

can be kind of the challenge, or

18:12

just make it so retriggering for yourself

18:15

that it wears on you. The first couple

18:17

episodes of my show, almost really like the

18:19

first half of the first season was very

18:21

raw, because I didn't know what I was

18:23

doing. And I just needed to do it. Like you said,

18:26

you just have this feeling, this

18:28

will help somebody. And when

18:30

the show started to actually get people that

18:33

were listening and commenting and giving me feedback,

18:35

that's when I was like, oh, people listen. I should

18:38

probably edit. I should learn how to do these

18:40

things. I should maybe get some

18:42

theme music or do some

18:44

housekeeping. But it has

18:46

been absolutely a very cathartic

18:49

healing journey to have those conversations,

18:51

to be able to relate to people and

18:53

say, oh my God, yes, that happened to

18:55

me too. And not in a way where

18:57

you're taking their story and saying, oh, let's

18:59

talk about me now. But in a way

19:01

that's like, I understand where you're coming from.

19:03

I've also been there. Let's go

19:05

deeper if you're willing. And it's such a beautiful thing.

19:08

And I think because we're able to

19:10

relate like that on the shows, and maybe this

19:12

happens to you guys too, but so many times

19:14

people are like, okay, I'm going to tell you

19:16

something I never thought I would ever say publicly.

19:18

Oh my God, I can't believe I'm saying, I

19:20

can't believe I'm telling a story right now. And

19:22

we get these hilarious stories of people just saying,

19:24

yes, I did this. Oh my God, it feels

19:26

so good to put it that well, I'm not

19:28

alone. And it's like, it's the funniest, but

19:31

like, so healing at the same time. And

19:33

I love those little bits of

19:35

people's journeys where they're finding the

19:37

comedy in their trauma. Because that's some of

19:40

the first steps of like moving past it

19:42

and getting on the other side and being

19:44

able to help victims as well, being able

19:46

to see the comedy of errors and where

19:48

you zigged and you should have zagged, and

19:51

your healing and where your journey has

19:53

taken you. Yeah, I love that.

19:55

And I think you do have to kind of

19:57

like look for those moments. of

20:00

brightness because otherwise it just gets really heavy. I

20:02

was a novelist before I started podcasting and one

20:04

of my sort of like core beliefs about life

20:06

is that one of the best things storytelling in

20:09

any medium can do is make us feel less

20:11

alone. And I think that that's the thing

20:13

that I think all three of us were feeling when we

20:15

was just like, I feel alone with this. I don't

20:17

wanna be alone with it. I will never like

20:19

undersell like how much I did this for myself,

20:22

like, especially in the beginning. Like I'm not like, I'm

20:24

like, oh, I'm gonna, just all altruistic reasons and I

20:26

did this for the, I mean, I did. I think

20:28

like I do think a lot about, you know, trying

20:30

to help people and like, but I was also like, I

20:33

have never spoken to another person who's been through

20:35

this situation. And that cannot be true that I'm

20:37

the only person on earth that's ever been through

20:39

it. And so like, yeah, that desire to connect,

20:41

I think is something that really drives all

20:44

of us. And it's like the

20:46

kind of quote, right reason to do it. And

20:48

like, you know, Terry, like you were talking about

20:50

your process of like really checking in with yourself

20:52

about sharing that story. And

20:54

like, I think I know all three

20:57

of us probably hear from people a

20:59

lot who have been

21:01

through either something that's in our like, you know, family

21:03

members or survivors, my child's in my proxy, you

21:05

know, I wanna share my story, right?

21:07

And I think that's a really like very human thing

21:10

of like, especially if you've been through a

21:12

situation that's left you feeling disempowered and

21:14

ashamed, which for various reasons, all three

21:16

of these topics do, I think

21:18

they are like, there's a heavy shame that people

21:20

carry around with them. And like, to be able

21:22

to take your voice back in that way is

21:24

really like, especially when you've gotten gaslit a lot,

21:26

which is like very heavy in these situations. Like

21:29

when people sort of are talking to you about that or

21:31

asking for advice on that, because specifically I know, Terry, you

21:33

know, run a podcasting course and like, what

21:36

advice would you give someone who's like, I

21:38

have this like really, like, especially if it's

21:40

a trauma, right, it's especially something that's traumatic,

21:42

not just like, hey, I have a weird

21:44

experience that I wanna share, but it doesn't actually like,

21:46

you know, send me into a death spiral. But like, if you have

21:48

a trauma and you are feeling that, you wanna

21:51

share that with other people and like you

21:53

wanna be a voice for something, like what

21:55

advice do you give into someone about

21:57

like how to check in with themselves and see if they're ready

21:59

for it? book a free 15

22:01

minute call with me. You

22:05

could just go to Linktree and book

22:07

a free 15 minute call, but because

22:09

every person is a little bit different.

22:12

I hate to say this, but

22:14

some stories are more

22:17

entertainment factor than others,

22:19

first day, or more

22:21

intriguing than others.

22:24

And like Hollywood is always looking

22:26

for a certain type. They always

22:28

have like, okay, I'm looking for this at the moment.

22:30

I'm looking for that at the moment. And you may

22:33

not be in the moment, but

22:35

you may be hot later. So start

22:37

like planning, start journaling, writing down everything.

22:39

This is what I tell like every

22:42

survivor going through a terrible thing,

22:45

journal, that could turn

22:47

into a book later, you know, and then you

22:49

own your property if you turn it into a

22:51

book, because they have to buy

22:54

that from you, it's copyrighted, you know, or

22:56

if you start your own podcast, just

22:58

make sure if you partner with

23:01

anyone, you be careful who you're

23:03

partnering with, have a contract contracts

23:05

are everything. But if you just

23:08

want to start to tell your

23:10

story yourself, get a mic, go

23:13

on audacity, hit record. Yeah,

23:16

the beautiful thing about podcasting, I think as

23:18

opposed to book publishing, right, is like, for

23:21

better or worse, the barrier to enter your

23:23

podcast is zero. But I think that's also

23:25

why there's this cool stuff happening in podcasting

23:28

is because it is so accessible. Right. That's

23:30

good advice. And I think like, to the

23:32

point of like, your personal traumatic story may

23:34

not be on trend right now. I

23:37

mean, it's funny that you say that. But it's like,

23:39

Yeah, I mean, there is like, I love that you

23:41

brought up journaling. A lot of folks I talked to

23:43

him like, is it that you

23:45

know, we do these peer support grips, your mentos

23:47

and support, which is like, do you want to

23:49

talk to a podcaster or

23:51

like a person with a big

23:54

platform, where a bunch of people are going

23:56

to hear you and weigh in and your relatives

23:58

that you're talking

24:00

about are going to be upset and you might get

24:02

hate mail and it might really set you back. Like, is

24:04

that the experience that you want to have? Like, are

24:06

you in that place? You know, and like, for some people,

24:08

and especially like the people we have on the show,

24:10

you know, we do these documentary style seasons, they take months

24:13

and months to make most of people I know that I

24:15

featured, I've known for years before they were on the show.

24:17

Part of what I'm always looking for is like, is

24:20

this going to be good for this person to like,

24:22

go digging around, right? Because you don't know what you're

24:24

going to find interviewing their family members for. I mean,

24:26

it's a very, very vulnerable, kind of scary process.

24:28

I think it's really a beautiful process, but it's

24:30

like, trying to evaluate whether or not someone is

24:33

that's going to be good for them? Or is

24:35

this going to cause a huge setback in your

24:37

mental health and just retrigger you? And

24:39

like, there's a lot of steps

24:41

before big public platform,

24:43

right? I think and I think, like,

24:46

yes, journaling, therapy, peer support, like, those

24:48

kind of things are like, yeah, maybe

24:50

what you need to do is tell

24:52

your story and then share it in five

24:54

years. And I always like, I talked

24:57

to a lot of people who, because they've

24:59

listened to the show, have just put the

25:01

pieces together. Very common for adult survivors of

25:03

mental health and my prophecy, not to understand

25:05

what happened to them until they're in their

25:07

20s, 30s, 40s. And I'm sure that's really

25:09

true of a lot of like, abuse survivors

25:11

that you talked to also those later revelations

25:13

and like, there was a 10 year

25:17

space between when these events

25:19

happened. I mean, obviously, the situation is

25:21

ongoing, but like, when these events happen,

25:23

and when I was intensely like in

25:26

my PTSD and mental health stuff over it,

25:28

there is a 10 year gap between

25:30

me and telling that story publicly. Yeah.

25:32

And that was the time I needed. And if

25:34

I had done it sooner, it would have set

25:36

me back. Like, there are a lot

25:38

of steps between, you know,

25:40

I think it's always going to feel raw when you do

25:43

it at first, no matter what. But yeah, I just feel

25:45

like there's a lot of like, I just worry about people

25:47

because it's also like, you know, if your story

25:49

is on trend, right? Yeah, like if everyone

25:52

is looking weirdly for Munchi, it's like, Oh, Gypsy Rose

25:54

Blanchard, what do you got? You know, it's like, everyone's

25:56

very like, which is weird, because

25:58

I've been at this for sort of years. years of the

26:00

book and everything and then I'm like everyone's paying attention to

26:02

it. And like, I want survivors

26:04

to A, make sure with the business side, they

26:06

don't get exploited, right? That they retain all their

26:08

rights and have good counsel and all that kind of thing.

26:11

And then also just that like, their stories being told

26:13

in a way that's going to be helpful to them

26:15

and to others and isn't exploitative because there's a lot

26:17

of exploitative stuff out. Yeah, yeah. And yeah,

26:20

Roberto, what do you I've had a lot of people

26:22

like they'll reach out, right? They'll find the show, they'll

26:24

find me on tik tok, or they'll watch Lula Rich

26:26

and they'll come and they'll find me and they'll say,

26:28

I have a story to tell. Maybe

26:31

they were terminated. Maybe they just, maybe

26:33

they were at the tippity top or

26:35

they were like super exploited and abused,

26:37

manipulated. And I can tell, because

26:39

I've talked to so many people, when

26:42

people are more in an erratic rage

26:45

space, that anger phase, which is so, so,

26:47

so, so, so important. And I tell everybody,

26:49

please go through it, live it, enjoy it,

26:52

and then get out of it because it will take

26:54

you down if you stay too long. But you have

26:57

to go through the anger phase. You have to go,

26:59

Oh my God, this happened the whole, the whole time.

27:02

It's that sort of like realization. And it,

27:04

it's different for everyone. Like Tara said, sometimes

27:06

people like process, they go through all their

27:08

group chats and texts and emails and they

27:10

process in a month or two and they're

27:12

like, I'm ready. And sometimes it takes years

27:14

and it's really a personal thing. So sometimes

27:16

people reach out and they're like, I'm ready

27:18

to tell my story. And I might ask

27:21

a couple of questions and I batch record.

27:23

So a lot of times it's like, Hey,

27:25

you just missed my last batch recording session.

27:27

I'll get my calendar out within the next

27:29

month and we can go from there. And

27:31

sometimes just that extra two or three months

27:33

is all they needed. Cause they're like, okay, well, Roberta

27:35

can't talk to me for a couple months. And then,

27:38

you know, the episode doesn't come out for a couple

27:40

months. Like, okay, well this will give me time. You

27:42

know, maybe I want to do advocacy. I can start

27:45

my Instagram account or I can do

27:47

all of these things. I can go

27:49

through my stuff and when they're ready,

27:51

and I'm telling you, I don't think

27:53

I've had anybody who has waited, whether

27:55

it was intentional or just because of

27:58

time that has said, geez. I

28:00

really regret waiting a little bit longer. Every single

28:02

person was like, oh my God, it was so

28:04

helpful. I had time to watch things. I had

28:06

time to go through things. I had time to

28:08

talk to some of my old friends that were

28:10

in this. They're super supportive of me talking. They

28:12

think they wanna talk next. And it's

28:14

such a personal thing that if

28:17

you do it too fast and

28:19

too hard, you'll burn

28:21

yourself out. And you're gonna only

28:23

see the negative and you're only gonna see the

28:25

drama and you're only gonna see like the bad

28:28

aspects of it. And you're never gonna wanna continue.

28:30

And again, it's such a personal journey. If

28:33

you are feeling any cognitive dissonance, it's like, I don't

28:35

think I'm ready. Then you're not ready. When

28:37

you're at the point where you're like, when can I get

28:39

on the show? I want a book. I've got

28:41

a story to tell. Then let's do it. But

28:44

if you're apprehensive, it's gonna come out in your interview.

28:46

You're gonna listen to your interview and you're gonna be

28:48

like, oh man, I forgot about this. I forgot about

28:50

that and I should have waited. The open invitation on

28:52

my show is always open. It's like, come whenever you're

28:55

ready. But if you come before you're ready,

28:57

the episode's just not as good. I

28:59

think for me and for the survivor

29:01

and for the audience, we really love

29:03

a good well-rounded story and sometimes just

29:06

two extra months of sitting in your

29:08

trauma and asking yourself those hard questions

29:10

is perfect. Sometimes that's all you need. Well,

29:14

I wish we could talk for another hour, but

29:16

since we are coming up on the end of

29:19

our time here because of our long journey through

29:21

LA traffic, Roberta, I know we have a couple

29:23

of rapid fire questions. So we're gonna end with

29:25

two rapid fire questions for the group. I

29:28

have my amazing friend,

29:30

Dave, asks the best questions.

29:33

So I was like, hey, Dave. And he was like,

29:35

I got some questions for you. So I'm

29:37

the host now. Okay, we're gonna turn the

29:39

baton on. Look at me, look at me.

29:42

Roberta's not the host now. I'm the captain now. I'm

29:44

the host now. Let's

29:46

see. So what's the intersection

29:48

between MLM, munchausen

29:52

and domestic violence? What do you guys

29:54

feel that that intersection lies between the

29:56

three of our topics? I

29:58

will go ahead and take this first. think the

30:00

intersection is that they're all abuse. And

30:04

my unifying theory

30:06

of why it's female

30:08

perpetrators in munchausen

30:10

cases, why it's male perpetrators, mostly

30:13

in domestic violence cases, why it's

30:15

MLM women, like stay-at-home moms, is

30:17

because people who are

30:20

inclined to abuse power will abuse power where they

30:22

find it. And so that can be child

30:25

predators in the priesthood or in a

30:27

Boy Scout organization. You know, we give

30:30

women in particular, very few avenues,

30:32

to power and control. And motherhood

30:34

is one, and MLMs

30:36

are another that specifically targets

30:39

disenfranchised women. And so I

30:41

think it's all abuse of power in different

30:43

forms. Yeah. Wow. What about you,

30:45

Tara? I was just like so pointed, I

30:47

was like, oh my god, they take the

30:49

abuse. They take the power where they can

30:52

find it. That was just like, holy shit,

30:54

of course. Because in an MLM, like I'm

30:56

a boss babe. I'm the boss babe. I'm

30:58

the upline. I'm the mega hun. And I

31:00

can tell you that you need to buy

31:02

more lipstick because my car payment is

31:05

due. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm

31:07

just having some thoughts around it because

31:09

of what you said. I think

31:12

it's really interesting that males are more

31:14

so the perpetrators in relationships. It's like

31:16

a 90-something percent or something like that.

31:18

Don't hold me on it, but I

31:20

believe it's like high up there. But

31:24

like the men perpetrate the women, and the

31:26

women want to figure out how to perpetrate

31:29

someone else. So I'm

31:31

like, oh, family and MLMs. So

31:35

I'm kind of like piecing it together.

31:37

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot

31:39

of those women were in abusive relationships

31:41

to begin with. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. A

31:43

lot of more vulnerable to something like an

31:45

MLM for sure. The patriarchy is alive and

31:48

well in multi-level marketing. And so like that

31:50

patriarchal abuse that a lot of women,

31:53

especially from like traditional households, are already

31:55

living in and is normal to them

31:57

when they see it somewhere else. the

32:00

comfort and the chaos. It's one frying pan into

32:02

another frying pan. They don't even realize it's so

32:04

comfortable. Yeah, because if you don't have control in

32:06

your own life, then you have to find it

32:08

somewhere else. Right. Yeah. And

32:11

then the follow-up question was, which

32:13

I think is fantastic, is what

32:15

education do you think is needed

32:17

to minimize the victims of these

32:20

types of controlled spaces?

32:23

Lots of education on coercive control because

32:25

people don't understand it and they think

32:27

that a woman can just leave. And

32:30

earlier I did say like, oh, the

32:32

majority of the people were so happy,

32:34

but I did get victim blame, you

32:37

know, and it does happen, but the

32:40

podcast wouldn't have blown up to what

32:42

it was if it was majority hate,

32:45

you know, and victim blaming. But

32:48

you can't, you can't go

32:50

and judge someone else. I think we

32:53

need to remove judgment from other people

32:55

and try to come from it from understanding

32:58

because the chaos theory, if

33:00

you do something bad to someone else or

33:02

someone does something bad to you and you

33:04

go and retaliate, you're creating more and more

33:06

chaos and then it doesn't stop and you

33:08

have to stop that chaos in the tracks.

33:11

Right. And we've talked about like, yeah, these

33:13

abuse cycles are just that they're cycles, right?

33:16

Yeah. Yeah. I think for Munchausen, I mean,

33:18

first of all, people just accepting it

33:20

exists would be a start. But I

33:22

think in terms of like the most,

33:24

one of the most damaging misconceptions about

33:27

it is that it is a mental

33:30

health issue with the mother. 96%

33:33

of known perpetrators are female. That's why I say mother. And

33:37

yes, they're underlying mental health issues, just

33:39

as they're all with all abusers, right?

33:41

But we don't say, oh, this person

33:44

bash their child in the head because they have abusive

33:47

bashing child in the head syndrome, right?

33:49

And I think that there's a really dangerous

33:51

conflation with infectious disorder

33:53

imposed on another and medical child abuse

33:55

where we see it as like a

33:57

psychiatric issue of the mother and. that

34:00

is not the right place to focus. It is abuse

34:02

on a child. It is the most

34:04

deadly form of child abuse, and that is

34:07

what we need to focus on. These are

34:09

abusers. Sometimes their partners or other people in

34:11

their family are contributing to

34:13

that abuse. So we need to take

34:15

the focus off at being a mental health issue

34:17

with the parent because there is

34:19

also very, very slim odds

34:22

that it is treatable, even if it is

34:24

caught, prosecuted, et cetera. So that, I think,

34:26

is the biggest step towards seeing

34:28

this for what it is. It is a terrific child abuse.

34:30

The child needs to be protected first and foremost. Yeah,

34:33

it is really interesting that there is so much

34:35

pushback and victim blaming in all

34:37

of our spaces. And I

34:39

think it is important to know what this

34:41

is and name it, give it

34:43

a language that we can define. A

34:46

wild sat that I tell people because people, when I talk about

34:49

MLMs, they are like, oh, like Mary Kay. My mom told Mary

34:51

Kay. I was like, there is so much more than that. But

34:53

MLM is $190 billion with a B, a year industry, with

34:58

a 99.7% loss rate. That

35:00

is bananas with a B. Yeah. Yeah.

35:02

And it is protected. And

35:04

it is legalized. And people do not

35:06

know that. People do not understand there

35:09

is lobbying efforts. I am assuming they

35:11

have lobbyists upon lobbyists, upon lawyers upon

35:13

lobbyists. Buying senators, and absolutely, 100%. And

35:15

people do not understand that. They just

35:17

think it is, well, I am just

35:20

helping my friend. And the education behind

35:22

understanding what these systemic abusive systems are,

35:24

like what they really, truly

35:26

are, so that you can

35:28

be like, yeah, it is a cute lipstick,

35:30

or the shake tastes fine, but it

35:33

is bankrupting people. It is just

35:35

showing families. This is not

35:37

just a side hustle. There are so many

35:39

legit side hustles that you do not have

35:41

to rope people into a cult and a

35:43

pyramid scheme to make a little bit of

35:45

money, because the 1% is making it off

35:47

the backs of the 99%. So even when

35:49

people are like, but I was successful, and I

35:51

was like, yes, because everyone else was not. Because

35:53

you are explaining people. They do not understand that.

35:55

And so, yeah, the education of naming

35:58

it, talking about it, sharing. statistics,

36:00

sharing victim stories, making

36:02

the content that you make, Andrea, and that

36:05

you make, Tara, and that we're making and

36:07

we're sharing. And people are going, I had

36:10

no idea, but I shared this

36:12

with my friend and I sent this to my

36:14

mom and we're talking about it at work. And

36:17

you're opening up that conversation is so important

36:19

because how else do we get

36:21

this out there without just people? It's

36:24

grassroots, right? Tell somebody, share this.

36:27

Let people know that these are bad,

36:29

bad things, systemic

36:32

issues and predatory systems that just

36:34

threw you up and spit you out. They

36:37

don't care about you. So just as we

36:39

wrap up real quick here, let's do a,

36:41

where can people find you? What are

36:43

you doing? Me, I'm Andrea Dunlop. Best

36:46

place to find me is on Instagram at

36:48

Andrea Dunlop and you can find

36:50

my show, Nobody Should Believe Me, wherever you

36:52

listen to podcasts and especially find it on

36:54

Spotify. Tara. I'm

36:57

Tara Newell. You can find me on

36:59

all platforms, Tara Newell. I also have

37:01

the podcast, Tara's Batty Club. And then

37:03

I also have a podcast that's on

37:05

hiatus right now, The Survivor Squad. And

37:08

I'm Roberta Blevins. You can find me

37:10

on Google, Roberta Blevins. Roberta

37:14

blevins.com, lifeaftermlmpod.com. The podcast

37:17

is lifeaftermlm. You

37:19

can find it wherever you listen to podcasts and Spotify. I

37:21

think it sounds a little bit better over there. And

37:24

yeah, you can find me on TikTok, Berta

37:26

Like Whoa. If you want to follow, I

37:28

am definitely available. Amazing. And hey, well, thanks

37:31

ladies. Thank you. Thank you. This

37:35

was very fun. Nobody Should Believe Me

37:37

will be back next week with a little

37:39

mini season, a season 3.5, if

37:42

you will. And we are

37:44

working very hard on season four and

37:46

that is coming June 20th. In

37:48

the meantime, if you want to support the

37:51

show, the best way to do that is

37:53

to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon.

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You will get all episodes of Nobody

37:58

Should Believe Me early and ad-free. have

38:00

a ton of exclusive bonus content

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over there, including coverage of the

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Kowalski trial, we watched the Gypsy

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Rose Blanchard series together, and we are

38:09

currently doing a deep dive on the

38:11

Justine Appellateer case. And as

38:13

always, if monetary support is not an option,

38:15

reading and reviewing the show really helps. Do

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you want a chance to go to the most appealing

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to the games at Huntington Park on May 24, 25

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