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0:41

Welcome to nobody told me.

0:43

I'm Laura Owens, and I'm Jan Black.

0:45

The vast majority of sexual abuse

0:48

victims in this country are girls and women

0:51

statistics show that most abusers

0:53

are men and most sexual assault complaints

0:55

never result in an

0:57

arrest. Much less charges

0:59

a prosecution or a conviction. On

1:01

this episode, we'll take a look at the cultural

1:04

and legal forces that downgrade

1:06

the credibility of sexual abuse survivors.

1:09

Our guest is former special victims prosecutor

1:12

and legal scholar Deborah who's

1:14

a leading authority on sexual violence.

1:16

She's the author of the new book credible,

1:19

why we doubt abusers and

1:21

protect abusers. Deborah, thank

1:23

you so much for joining us. Thank

1:25

you so much for having me. And thank

1:27

you also for writing this book. It

1:29

is so

1:31

needed. Why did you decide

1:33

to write it? Well,

1:35

thank you. I also feel like it's

1:37

needed in this respect.

1:40

We are here in the Me Too era and

1:43

all sorts of stories of sexual

1:46

assault and sexual harassment are

1:48

coming to the fore. People are

1:51

feeling more willing to share

1:53

their experiences and share their

1:55

accounts. And that's all for

1:57

the good. And yet as

1:59

a society, as a culture, we

2:02

still have real problems with

2:04

responding to those stories. Certainly,

2:07

as a legal system, we still have

2:09

problems responding to these stories. And

2:11

so my hope in writing

2:14

this book is that readers

2:16

would be given a new understanding of

2:19

how in our own

2:21

individual lives, we can make

2:23

a difference and we can do better by

2:25

survivors. Are there any

2:27

standards right now for credibility?

2:30

Well, it's such an interesting question

2:33

because we judge credibility

2:36

all the time. We judge it when

2:38

we speak to our friends and family members.

2:41

And certain people have professional responsibilities

2:44

that require them to judge credibility.

2:46

If you're a police officer, if you're a

2:48

title nine officer, or

2:51

an HR worker. And

2:53

yet, we don't have

2:56

formal standards for judging credibility. We're

2:58

all sort of, you know, flying

3:01

little bit blind when it comes to this central

3:03

question of who

3:05

to believe and what to believe and

3:07

and even whether to care about

3:09

what we hear. What would you

3:11

like to see happen to change

3:14

that? Well, I think

3:16

the first step is is for

3:18

us to recognize that

3:21

there are these forces these

3:23

cultural and legal forces that

3:26

I call the credibility complex that

3:30

shapes all of our responses to

3:33

accusations of abuse.

3:36

And when we start to see these

3:38

forces and the biases and

3:40

the myths and the stereotypes

3:43

and the misunderstandings that

3:45

affect us, then we can

3:47

start to change. We can start to

3:49

rewire ourselves

3:51

and do better when it comes to

3:53

assessing credibility. One of

3:55

the toughest things for me when I

3:58

was going through the process of getting a

4:00

restraining order was when I first went to the

4:02

police and figured that I would

4:04

be trusted and they would think, okay.

4:06

Well, she's obviously the victim. She's a

4:08

full foot shorter than this guy.

4:11

And what she says, you can you can just tell

4:13

this guy would have a propensity to

4:15

try and do things that would overpower

4:18

a woman my size. So I

4:20

was absolutely shocked when they

4:22

initially seemed to be on

4:24

his side. However, the

4:26

cops who were taking the report were

4:29

his age and they

4:31

all seemed to just kind of be

4:33

in this club together that I

4:35

didn't know existed. So is

4:37

that true that if you're a

4:39

woman reporting a crime, you're typically

4:41

not like the officer who's taking the

4:43

complaint, so they're gonna maybe think

4:46

about, oh god, I had this ex girlfriend

4:48

who She was crazy. She was

4:50

crazy. And so I get it, man. Is

4:52

that true? Well,

4:55

I think that's a big part of the problem

4:57

and the experience that you're describing

5:00

is sadly

5:02

very familiar to me from my

5:05

time as domestic

5:07

violence prosecutor. And from

5:09

all of these years, I've spent since

5:11

speaking with victims and survivors

5:13

about their enounters with law enforcement

5:16

officers. And I should say other kinds

5:18

of officials as well. It's it's, of

5:20

course, not just the police. There

5:22

is tendency I think to

5:25

identify in many cases with

5:28

the accused man, particularly if

5:30

it's a man who share

5:33

certain characteristics with the person that

5:35

the victim is reporting to. And

5:38

at the same time, I I also wanna say that

5:40

this isn't just about men

5:42

disbelieving. I, you know, unfortunately,

5:46

we see that in many instances, you

5:48

know, women too

5:50

distrust accusers and

5:53

blame accusers and

5:55

and disregard their suffering. And

5:57

and I think the point that III

5:59

try to make in different ways in the book is

6:01

that this really is a cultural

6:04

problem. This is is not just

6:07

people who who don't wanna do

6:09

right. This is not a problem of bad apples,

6:12

but it's something that we all really have to

6:14

reckon with.

6:15

Isn't it also true that police

6:18

may be hesitant to

6:20

pursue cases like this? Because

6:22

it may end up coming down to he

6:24

said, she said, and for

6:26

prosecutors, that also may be very difficult

6:28

to prosecute. Yes.

6:31

And one of the things that is so

6:33

frustrating is the way that

6:36

he said she said is used

6:38

to stall investigations. And

6:41

what I mean by that is that at an early

6:43

stage, the research shows and

6:46

and experiences certainly show

6:49

that You

6:51

know, law enforcement officers often just

6:53

stop doing the work of investigating the

6:56

case so that it's

6:58

no longer a quote unquote he said,

7:00

she said. I mean, it's very

7:02

difficult to prove any case beyond

7:04

a reasonable doubt if it goes through

7:06

the criminal process and ends up a trial.

7:09

And I I don't wanna minimize the difficulty

7:11

that prosecutors have. And

7:13

yet, it's also the case that evidence

7:15

can often be gathered that

7:18

supports, that corroborates the

7:20

victim's account, and that's the kind of

7:22

evidence that law enforcement officers are

7:25

supposed to be looking for. But when

7:27

they decide early on to short

7:29

circuit the investigation, because

7:32

they just conclude that this is

7:34

inevitably he said, against

7:36

she

7:37

said, well, you know, that's the

7:39

dismissal of a case that might have been viable.

7:41

Yeah, and I think you're so right when you talk

7:43

about HOW IT'S REALLY HARD

7:45

FOR VICTIMS TO TALK ABOUT THEIR CASES

7:48

IN CORONOLOGICAL ORDER BECAUSE IT

7:50

JUST SEEMS SO OVERWHELMING BY THE TIME

7:52

YOU GO TO THE POLICE. Why

7:54

does that really put you at a disadvantage

7:57

with the cops even if you're coming off

7:59

hysterical and they can tell this seems

8:01

like somebody who is abused.

8:04

Yeah, you know, we there's all sorts

8:06

of really interesting and really

8:08

important neuroscience in this

8:10

area that helps to explain

8:13

the effects of trauma. And

8:15

it turns out scientists know

8:18

that putting together a

8:20

linear narrative of a traumatic

8:23

event is often difficult

8:25

to impossible for many survivors of

8:27

that event. And so, many

8:30

of us sort of expect that someone's going

8:32

to come in and be able to present a

8:35

clean and chronological account

8:37

that contains all of the details though

8:39

central details and the peripheral

8:42

details and everything in between. And

8:44

that's just not how how we work

8:46

as human beings. And And so,

8:48

you know, part of I think what

8:50

would help in this area is for

8:53

law enforcement officers and others those

8:56

who respond to allegations in

8:58

their jobs and in their lives to

9:01

become better versed in

9:03

this neuroscience and to be what's

9:06

known in the field as trauma informed

9:08

in the way they do their work.

9:10

We thank you for being part of our.

9:12

Nobody told me family of listeners.

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11:08

One thing that I wanted to say

11:10

to domestic violence survivors

11:13

who are currently in a relationship and don't

11:15

necessarily know how they can get

11:17

out. They don't know how they can describe these events

11:20

is I went to the courthouse to

11:22

try and file a report and

11:24

I found I just god, there was just

11:26

so much that was coming out, no. It wasn't

11:28

coming out in order. And I was so lucky

11:31

that a women's group backed offered

11:33

free legal help for me and they

11:36

prepared everything for

11:38

me in chronological order and they they

11:40

took their time to do it. And so I know

11:42

that there are resources like that available

11:44

to other women. So I think that

11:46

they should take the time to maybe research that

11:49

that can help their credibility, tremendous

11:51

amount.

11:52

Yes. And that makes a lot of sense to

11:54

me. It's really unfortunate

11:57

that the onus, the burden is put

11:59

on victims to to do

12:01

that kind of, you know, difficult work upfront.

12:05

As you say, very helpful to have

12:07

an advocate to to assist

12:09

with that. It would be

12:11

much better if the person on the receiving

12:14

end, you know, was asking

12:16

the kinds of questions designed to elicit

12:18

the best possible narrative, but that doesn't

12:20

always happen. And so you're absolutely right

12:22

that, you know, going into these kinds

12:24

of interviews having prepared

12:26

some for the kinds of questions that are gonna

12:29

gonna come your way can can be really

12:31

useful and and can enhance that credibility.

12:34

Well, what should you be prepared for

12:37

if you want to pursue charges

12:39

against your attacker? And and especially

12:41

if your attacker was someone you may have been in

12:43

a relation ship with?

12:45

Well, the criminal justice system, the

12:47

legal system generally, but the criminal justice

12:49

system, in particular, has

12:52

been very

12:55

unreceptive to these kinds of claims,

12:58

particularly when they

13:00

involve people who are known to

13:02

one another, which is the vast majority of

13:05

sexual assault cases. We

13:07

still have this idea that rape

13:10

involves a stranger. We

13:12

think of an alley or a weapon. And

13:14

of course, that's really not the not

13:17

how most of these cases play

13:20

themselves out. And so

13:22

we have a criminal justice system with a

13:24

with a miss misunderstanding

13:27

of what sexual assault looks like.

13:29

And if you're someone who who comes

13:31

forward and decides to pursue criminal

13:33

charges, you may be met

13:36

with hostility and

13:38

you may be met with skepticism

13:41

and you may be met with blame

13:43

shifting and and disregard and

13:45

and and a lot of things that, you know, I think people

13:47

who've gone through the system are are

13:49

often familiar with. And at

13:51

the same time, I wanna say that not all

13:54

law enforcement officers, prosecutors, judges,

13:57

jurors, are this way.

13:59

And so for some victims

14:02

who go through the criminal process, it can be

14:04

very empowering, and it can be validating.

14:06

And And so there's just a range of

14:08

experiences, and yet we can say

14:10

for the most part, the criminal justice system

14:13

really does need to do

14:14

better. I've heard that in so many

14:16

cases, men will say that

14:19

sexual acts were actually

14:22

Yes. Exactly, strangulation. Oh, she

14:24

wanted that. How does

14:26

the court see

14:27

that? Do they say, oh, well, the guy

14:29

must be right. Because how can you disprove that?

14:32

Mhmm. Yeah. A lot of these cases

14:35

become consent defenses.

14:38

It's not a question of identity, it's

14:40

not a question of who did it, but

14:43

a question of whether the

14:45

person who comes forward and says she was

14:47

assaulted, actually consented to

14:49

those sex acts. And this is exactly

14:51

why credibility is so critical

14:55

in these cases. This is why

14:57

people tend to think of them as he

14:59

said, she said because she's got one account

15:01

and he's got another and it falls

15:03

to the trier effect,

15:06

often a jury, sometimes a

15:08

judge, to sort through that. And that's

15:10

where that corroborating evidence

15:12

becomes really important. But also,

15:14

and this, again, the point of book is to say,

15:17

we need to do better at at

15:19

judging credibility, and we need to not

15:21

start from a position of of

15:24

of doubting.

15:25

The woman often usually

15:28

who says, this happened to me and I

15:30

did not consent. So

15:33

would that be a good enough argument

15:35

for that? Or what should women

15:37

say if they're told your boyfriend

15:39

said that it was a consensual act Do

15:41

they wanna get ahead of it in some way and

15:43

say, oh, I know he'll say that? Well,

15:46

I think, you know, the the question is

15:48

who is the victim

15:50

talking to. Right? If she's talking to a police

15:52

officer, you know,

15:54

it can be helpful to say Here

15:57

are some thoughts about where

16:00

you might look for corroborating evidence.

16:02

There was a person who

16:04

saw me immediately afterwards and

16:06

I was crying and I was distraught and

16:08

I told her what happened or, you

16:11

know, he was text staying with a friend of his

16:13

afterwards, and it may be that those

16:15

texts contain incriminating information. And

16:17

so at the investigative stage,

16:20

it can be helpful to sort

16:22

of assist with the law enforcement

16:24

effort, particularly if you've got officers

16:26

who don't seem especially inclined to

16:29

to move in that direction. And then

16:31

if the case moves forward to

16:33

trial, which I want to emphasize is

16:35

exceedingly rare in these

16:38

cases, most sexual assault

16:40

never gets reported. Of

16:43

those complaints that do go

16:45

to the police, most do

16:47

not result in an arrest. And those that

16:49

do result in arrest may not result in

16:51

a prosecution. Okay? And and those

16:53

that do result in prosecution may never make

16:55

their way to a jury. So this is what's

16:57

known as case attrition. Case

17:00

is dropping out. Of the system.

17:02

And, you know, your your listeners should understand

17:05

that when someone decides to

17:07

go forward, that doesn't necessarily mean

17:09

that the case is going to end up in

17:12

a trial and with a jury sorting through

17:14

credibility. But if it does end

17:16

there, then the question that you

17:18

asked about, you know, how does this get resolved?

17:21

Well, that becomes a jury question. And

17:23

the the the jurors have to figure out

17:25

what to believe and whether they're persuaded beyond

17:28

a reasonable doubt that the person accused

17:30

actually did the the crime of which he's

17:32

accused. I was absolutely

17:35

shocked to learn from your book that more

17:37

than one hundred thousand rape

17:39

kits sit untested

17:42

around the country. Why is

17:44

that the case? I mean, that that's

17:46

mind boggling.

17:49

It is mind boggling. It's one

17:51

of those statistics that I

17:53

I think if you sort of sit with it for a while,

17:55

you just can become more and more angry

17:57

and upset. This goes

18:00

to the earlier conversation that

18:02

we were having about short

18:04

circiting investigations and law enforcement

18:07

officers just deciding from

18:09

the get go that the the case is not gonna

18:11

be pursued. There's been some

18:13

really good research done on these

18:15

shelved rate kits by Rebecca

18:18

Campbell. And she's a

18:20

psychologist, and she's talk to

18:22

some of the officers about why these rate

18:24

kits didn't get tested. And

18:26

and it turns out they didn't get tested

18:28

because the officers had really already

18:31

dismissed the case as as being a case that

18:33

wasn't gonna go anywhere.

18:34

Oh, wow. Another thing that I abusers

18:38

can do to get ahead of their victim is

18:40

to file a protective order against

18:43

the

18:43

victim. How should the

18:45

victim then handle that? Howard Bauchner:

18:47

Oh, this is this is

18:49

so common and it's it's awful. Right?

18:51

To it's often refer

18:54

to as Darvo deny

18:56

attack, reverse victim and offender.

18:58

This is how psychologists and experts in

19:00

the field will often kind of characterize

19:03

these efforts to, you know, to

19:05

shift the focus. This

19:08

is another place where I think having a really

19:10

good epic get, ideally legal advocate

19:14

is is key. It's interesting

19:17

to realize that in so many

19:19

of these cases that are very highly

19:21

publicized of sexual assault,

19:23

something of Bill Cosby or Larry NASA

19:26

or Jeffrey Epstein. It's

19:28

taken dozens and

19:30

dozens of people to come through.

19:33

In order for these cases to be prosecuted,

19:36

Why is it that it takes so many

19:38

that just one or two or even five

19:40

or ten don't get it? One

19:42

or two really should be enough. Right. But but

19:45

you look at a case of like Bill Cosby. It

19:47

was sixty. In the case of Larry Nasser,

19:49

it's over two hundred and fifty. All

19:51

of these these you know, highly publicized

19:53

cases seem to have dozens of

19:56

victims.

19:57

They do, and that's because as

20:00

a culture, we do this thing

20:03

that I call credibility discounting,

20:06

which is that when one accuser

20:09

comes forward, her word is unlikely

20:11

to be enough to persuade someone. And

20:13

so credibility comes in

20:15

numbers and it's,

20:18

you know, terrible to say, but what we

20:20

see is that you need a mass

20:22

of victims

20:23

before people believe

20:26

and before they care. We

20:28

thank you for being part of our, and nobody

20:30

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22:16

today. Do you think

22:19

that criminal defense attorneys who

22:21

are representing an abuser really

22:24

care if they committed that

22:25

act? And do you think they they trust them.

22:28

Well,

22:30

criminal defense attorneys have a really important

22:32

role to play in our system. And I and

22:34

I really respect the work they do. I don't

22:36

think that you know, when they stay within

22:39

the ethical bounds, everyone

22:41

deserves a defense. And think

22:43

the problem is less with the defense

22:45

attorneys and the and the attorneys

22:48

doing their job, then

22:51

it is the kinds of

22:53

arguments that often win the day. Because

22:56

if it didn't work to shift blame,

22:58

if it didn't talk, if it didn't work to talk

23:00

about what the victim was

23:02

wearing, then

23:04

defense attorneys wouldn't bother to make those

23:07

arguments. It's the fact that they're

23:09

often successful that ought to trouble

23:11

us.

23:12

How is it that these powerful

23:14

men are able to

23:16

get away with abuse for a

23:18

long time?

23:20

Our culture is oriented

23:23

to the pain of the powerful. And

23:25

so we're loathed to impose

23:28

consequences on people for their

23:30

abuse were reluctant to

23:33

hold them to account. And instead, we

23:35

want to look at what the victim

23:38

did to deserve this or why she

23:40

ought not to be trusted or

23:42

why her pain doesn't

23:45

matter. And, you know, that

23:47

that is a

23:49

deeply seated tendency,

23:52

and it's going to take a

23:54

lot of work for us to

23:56

get

23:56

better. The body cam footage

23:58

of the Gabby Potato Case has

24:01

angered me so so much

24:04

knowing that the people who reported

24:06

what was going on between her and

24:08

Brian Lawndry, actually saw

24:11

him hitting her. I mean, what are your

24:13

thoughts on all of

24:14

this? I'm sure you followed the case. Yeah.

24:16

I mean, this is, you know, This

24:18

is the enabling. This is the kind

24:20

of cultural tolerance for

24:22

a level of violence against women

24:25

in particular. That I I think

24:27

we see in so many cases

24:30

now and, you know, we're looking

24:32

right now at the r kelly trial

24:35

and the jury is

24:37

about to be charged

24:39

and deliberate in the case. Well, that

24:42

was decades of allegations,

24:44

decades against the singer that

24:48

that circulated and and there

24:50

were people around him who

24:54

the evidence suggests facilitated this

24:56

abuse, and it and it didn't matter

24:58

these young women continued

25:00

to be hurt by

25:01

him. It's also interesting though

25:04

to me to see in a case of

25:06

well known figures. It's like the

25:08

public really doesn't want to believe

25:11

that they could be evil or monsters

25:13

or something other than

25:15

what we have created

25:17

in our minds about them. Like in the case, like

25:19

I say, of a Bill Cosby or

25:21

a Jeffrey Epstein who, you know, who's

25:23

out on the town at society events

25:25

and Bill Cosby is America's dad and

25:27

and that sort of stuff. Isn't that

25:29

part of the problem too that we just don't

25:32

want to believe that these people

25:34

we've built up as heroes can be anything

25:36

but that?

25:38

Yeah, very much. So I think that

25:40

there are powerful defense mechanisms

25:42

that come into play when particularly our

25:44

revered cultural elites

25:47

are are accused of this kind

25:49

of abuse or

25:51

there are rumors circulating or

25:53

people see things with their own eyes

25:55

that that should set off alarms.

25:58

Right? We would we would rather continue

26:01

to to put these men on a pedestal, continue

26:04

to allow them to influence our

26:06

culture and to, you

26:08

know, to maintain their authority.

26:11

And that's frankly can

26:13

be easier. It's certainly less

26:16

destabilizing than the alternative.

26:18

And, you

26:19

know, it's hard

26:21

when things get unsettled.

26:25

Right. Do you think that abuse

26:27

is becoming more rampant in this

26:29

day and age? Or do you think that it's

26:31

been going on for a long time and people

26:33

have been just afraid to report it like

26:35

in these famous cases you and my mom were

26:37

talking about.

26:38

Yeah. Very very much the the

26:40

the second alternative. I think that

26:43

abuse has been going on forever.

26:45

And what we're

26:48

seeing now is more willingness

26:50

on the part of victims to come

26:52

forward. And

26:55

and to put the stories out there and

26:57

and to report formally

26:59

or informally to, you know, to tell

27:01

their family members, their friends, or maybe

27:03

even to talk to the press or to

27:05

go to the police or to, you know, to go

27:08

to HR, think that the the big

27:10

shift in the past few

27:12

years, particularly since this hashtag

27:14

me too, went viral, is that

27:16

these stories are now in

27:18

circulation, but the abuse was happening

27:20

all along. What would you

27:22

like to see done? You said that one of the reasons

27:24

that you wrote the book was

27:26

to generate conversation so

27:29

that we as individuals could

27:32

realize maybe how we can

27:34

make

27:34

changes. Howard Bauchner: Exactly right.

27:36

And the book has ideas

27:39

for law reform. I am a law

27:41

professor, and I certainly think that our

27:43

laws that bake in the credibility

27:45

discount need to be changed. But

27:48

the, you know, the the audience is

27:50

people who can make change in their

27:52

daily lives. And I think I

27:55

try to sketch out some, you know, some very

27:57

practical and realistic ways that

27:59

people can improve their

28:01

own decision making around credibility

28:04

and resist the lore of

28:06

blame shifting and

28:09

shrink what I call the care gap, which

28:11

is our our tendency to care

28:15

deeply about powerful people

28:17

and much less so about those

28:19

who are vulnerable and marginalized in our

28:21

society.

28:22

Right. Well, what advice would

28:24

you have for women

28:27

or men who are in an abusive relationship

28:29

right now and who are afraid to

28:31

come forward given how our society

28:34

might view them.

28:36

I understand that fear. I

28:38

I am certainly in no position to tell

28:40

anyone that the right thing to do is to come

28:42

forward. I think that you know,

28:44

people know themselves, know their lives,

28:47

and they know what they're up against. And so,

28:49

you know, if anything, it's less advice

28:51

than validation. I I would say that

28:54

the credibility complex

28:56

is real. It's powerful. It's daunting

28:59

and it's one of the main

29:01

reasons for the the silence that we see

29:03

in our society. I hope

29:06

this changes. I wrote

29:08

the book. In an effort to help bring

29:10

about that change, but I don't judge

29:13

anyone who chooses to

29:15

to to keep silent about the

29:17

abuse. You spent

29:19

five years as an assistant district

29:21

attorney in New York specializing in

29:23

domestic violence and child abuse prosecution.

29:26

And I'm wondering What percentage

29:29

of cases that should be prosecuted

29:32

go unprosecuted?

29:36

It's hard to say from my experience because

29:39

by the time I got the case,

29:41

that case was already somewhat statistically unusual.

29:44

I think that part of my

29:47

answer goes to the to the earlier

29:49

question about reporting

29:51

and silence. I think that what

29:54

needs to happen is that

29:56

people are

29:59

given reason to believe they'll be fairly

30:01

judged when they come forward. And that's what's gonna

30:03

bring more cases into the system.

30:05

Of course, this is, you know, a virtuous

30:08

cycle. Once we see the system

30:10

responding more nearly to

30:12

these kinds of allegations, we can expect

30:15

that more victims will be

30:17

willing to tell their stories.

30:19

What does more fairly look like

30:22

to you? How can law enforcement win

30:24

back the trust

30:25

of the people who don't trust them? Part

30:27

of it is not starting from AAA

30:30

position of disbelief, of doubt,

30:33

not shifting blame

30:35

from the perpetrator to the victim and

30:38

and having concern for

30:40

victims of, you know, of all identities

30:43

from all populations, and

30:47

being open to reexamining

30:50

some of our fundamental biases around

30:52

abuse and some of the misconceptions

30:55

that continue to fuel

30:58

inaccurate judgments about credibility.

31:01

What would you say to

31:03

someone who perhaps was the victim

31:05

of a sexual assault

31:08

a while GO AND THEY'VE DELAYED

31:10

REPORTING IT AND YET IT'S STILL IMPACTING

31:12

THEIR LIFE. SHOULD THEY COME FORWARD

31:15

AND HOW LONG? WHAT'S A

31:17

TIME frame in which to

31:19

do that. Limitations. Well, the scientific

31:21

limitations. Yeah. That's true. But I'm I'm seeing

31:23

if you're within the statute of

31:24

limitations, but maybe it's it's still

31:26

been a while. Yeah, I

31:28

mean, statues of limitations vary

31:31

from state to state.

31:33

They differ depending upon whether

31:36

you're talking about a civil case where someone

31:38

is going to sue an

31:40

individual as compared to a criminal

31:42

case where the state is

31:44

bringing charges or

31:46

a federal prosecution where the government

31:49

is. And, you know, there are all sorts

31:51

of ways to disclose. You can

31:53

you can walk into a police

31:55

precinct and make a complaint, you

31:58

can, you know, you could tell someone

32:00

in your family or a friend or a therapist. And

32:03

I think that, you know,

32:05

each each survivor obviously

32:07

has her his own

32:10

story an own set of concerns about

32:13

about coming forward. I will say because

32:15

I mentioned earlier that I I think there are really

32:17

good reasons to stay silent because it's

32:20

so devastating. It can be so

32:22

devastating to be dismissed, but I also

32:24

want to say that many, many of the survivors

32:27

I've spoken with over the years have

32:30

have experienced real

32:32

validation and real

32:34

catharsis, solidarity, from

32:36

coming forward. And so I, you know,

32:38

I I do think that for

32:41

for many people who

32:43

decide to tell their stories. That is a

32:45

decision that that that feels right.

32:47

And even if it is difficult and

32:50

it is always difficult, for

32:55

so many people, that is exactly

32:57

what is needed to

33:00

pursue this journey toward

33:02

healing. That's such good advice, and

33:04

the book is filled with such good

33:05

advice. I'm gonna

33:07

ask you to narrow it down a bit. What

33:09

is your nobody told me lesson.

33:11

So what is it that nobody told

33:13

you about why we doubt

33:16

accusers and protect abusers that

33:18

you wish you'd known long

33:20

ago because it would have saved

33:22

you some time and energy.

33:25

I would say this. Nobody

33:27

told me that there's a credibility

33:30

complex and

33:32

that it shapes all of us. Wow.

33:35

And in what ways are we

33:37

all shaped by it? Because don't you think that

33:39

a lot of us feel like I'm not that

33:41

way. I can determine whether a

33:43

story is true or not and whether a victim is

33:46

credible or

33:46

not. Howard Bauchner: I do think that

33:49

many of us feel that way and

33:51

I I guess I would point to some

33:55

of my conversations with survivors where

33:57

that credibility discount that

33:59

I mentioned earlier is internalized. And

34:02

where survivors doubt themselves

34:05

or blame themselves or

34:08

wonder whether they matter enough

34:11

to justify coming forward and

34:15

what often feels or what's often characterized

34:19

as quote unquote, ruining his life.

34:21

Right? It's those kinds of internalized

34:24

sentiments that I think

34:27

for me, serve

34:29

as really powerful confirmation

34:32

that none of us can sort of escape

34:35

the cultural influences on our

34:37

thinking in this

34:38

area. Yes, absolutely. I agree

34:40

with that. And how can people learn

34:42

more about the book? And how can I connect with

34:44

you

34:45

online? The book is

34:47

is called Credible. Why we

34:49

doubt accusers and protect abusers.

34:51

As you've mentioned earlier, And I

34:53

have a website, which

34:55

is WWW dot debra

34:59

dot

34:59

com, the spelling of my name, and I have

35:01

a contact form on that website.

35:03

And the spelling of your name for everyone

35:06

who wants to jot it down and and check it out?

35:08

Absolutely. My first name is Deborah,

35:11

DEB0RAH,

35:11

and

35:15

is spelled TUERKHEIMER.

35:19

The website is debra terkimer is

35:21

all one word.

35:23

Perfect. Deborah, thank you so much for

35:25

joining us. I really hope that we've encouraged

35:27

some people who are Vic symptoms to

35:29

maybe see their situation in a little bit different

35:31

light. Well, thank you so much for

35:34

having me for drawing

35:36

attention to this, you know, to this

35:38

hugely important issue in advancing

35:41

this conversation. I really appreciate it.

35:43

Oh, yeah. No. We really appreciate you. I

35:45

mean, AS VICTIM MYSELF MEANS

35:47

EVERYTHING THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO THIS AND

35:50

TRYING TO MAKE WOMEN FEEL LIKE THEY'RE CREDIBLE

35:52

AND INSTANCES WHEN THEY DON'T feel that

35:54

way. It really is a helpful and needed

35:56

book. Thanks to Deborah Again,

35:59

her new book is called Credible. Why

36:01

we doubt accusers and protect

36:04

abusers. And her website again

36:06

is debra dot com.

36:08

I'm Jan Black, and I'm Laura

36:10

Owens. You're listening to nobody told me.

36:12

Thank you so much for joining us.

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