0:11

Welcome to Nobody Told Me. I'm Laura

0:13

Owens. And I'm Jan Black. On

0:16

this episode, we're focusing on forgiveness.

0:18

Do you find it difficult to

0:20

forgive? Do you wish others would

0:22

find it easier to forgive you?

0:24

Joining us is Dr. Fred Luskin,

0:27

who's the director of the Stanford

0:29

Forgiveness Project. An ongoing series of

0:31

workshops and research projects that

0:33

investigate the effectiveness of his forgiveness

0:35

methods on a variety of populations.

0:38

Dr. Luskin is one of the

0:40

world's leading researchers on

0:42

forgiveness. He's the author of

0:44

the best-selling books Forgive for Good,

0:46

A Proven Prescription for Health and

0:48

Happiness, and Forgive for Love, The

0:50

Missing Ingredient for a Healthy and

0:52

Lasting Relationship. Dr. thank you so

0:54

much for joining us. Hey, you're

0:56

welcome. How do you

0:59

define forgiveness? Well, you

1:01

know, unfortunately, there's many

1:03

definitions. What we do

1:05

is try to make it

1:08

as practical as possible. So basically,

1:10

it's stop throwing a hissy fit

1:12

when life didn't go the way

1:15

you want. It's not about

1:17

the past at all, that it's

1:20

about the current, like,

1:22

arguing with your own life.

1:25

What is Stanford's Forgiveness Project? It's

1:27

such an amazing idea for something.

1:29

And we were also wondering how

1:31

you became interested in the topic

1:34

yourself. Yeah, but the

1:36

Forgiveness Project was or is

1:38

a just an attempt to,

1:40

like, figure out how to

1:42

help people forgive. I mean,

1:45

just a simple, practical

1:48

desire to teach this

1:50

stuff to understand what works

1:52

and what doesn't. And at

1:54

its core, a desire to

1:56

help people suffer less. I

1:58

got into Forgiveness Project

2:01

because I had been very

2:03

badly hurt, betrayed

2:06

many years ago and had

2:08

no skills and no clue had

2:10

to handle it and

2:12

went flailing around for a

2:14

number of years with anger

2:17

and disappointment and

2:19

bitterness and mistrust. And

2:23

my wife came to me one day

2:25

and said, Fred, I still

2:27

love you, but I don't like you

2:29

as much. You've let this festering

2:33

wound occupy

2:35

you way too much

2:37

and that's not what I signed up

2:39

for when I got married to

2:41

you. And that was

2:44

such a slap and such a shock

2:47

that it forced me to

2:50

investigate what else can

2:52

I do about this besides being angry

2:55

or feeling sorry for myself or

2:57

just arguing. And

3:00

so that was the precipitating event

3:02

for my own forgiveness. And

3:05

then the Stanford Forgiveness Project was

3:08

a very small research

3:11

project that was catalyzed

3:14

by Bill Clinton's affair with

3:17

Monica Lewinsky into

3:20

we became internationally known because

3:24

when Monica Lewinsky's

3:26

dress, which had Bill Clinton's

3:30

semen on it, was DNA

3:32

identified as his, we

3:35

got all these claws from media

3:37

outlets because they didn't know who else

3:40

to ask should Hillary forgive Bill. And

3:43

that media interest

3:46

took what had been an unknown

3:48

and tiny project into

3:51

like me and my other

3:54

member, into like experts in forgiveness

3:58

because it was a very small project. Bill

4:00

when Monica. A how did you

4:02

then decide that in this was something that

4:04

we could look at. Or that you could

4:07

look at with a with regard to other

4:09

grievances around the world like the violence in

4:11

Northern Ireland and and Nine Eleven. We

4:15

retired way I'm not

4:17

allowed to. Release

4:20

Thirty. Forgiveness and

4:22

the was strongest.

4:25

Understanding we came from working

4:27

with so many people were

4:29

said it didn't really matter

4:31

what field fence was that

4:33

we could be anything. What

4:35

mattered was how people react.

4:38

And and we saw this out with

4:40

of hundred and eighty degrees of the

4:42

of rent. Them. A

4:44

Motorcycle Therapeutic Approaches which

4:46

were. Tell. Me

4:49

again like how bad it

4:51

was with your mother. Were you

4:53

allowed were or anything and weekends?

4:55

Or understand that the hun

4:57

sen. Buried Alive by

5:00

how you process with rides.

5:03

And hey, you resolve the right. Word.

5:05

Very similar. And so

5:07

we started in places that will

5:09

reach out. To. Much

5:12

more difficult and much more

5:14

challenging. Areas to

5:16

investigate You: Forgiveness work.

5:18

Is so what did you find?

5:20

And why is it that some

5:22

people aren't willing to forgive somebody

5:25

for? It's a very minor grievance.

5:27

But then you hear stories about

5:29

how families have a murder victim

5:31

will forgive the murderer. I mean,

5:33

there's just such a vast difference

5:35

in terms of the amount of

5:37

forgiveness people. Are willing to guess

5:39

in that amazing it's city.

5:43

A you live in the Bay Area. I

5:46

am that there was a.

5:49

Individual from the South Bay.

5:52

Who. Came to one of my

5:54

classes or I was talking to

5:56

about forgiveness. and in

5:59

the words still mad

6:02

because their neighbor had

6:06

put their fence two

6:08

inches onto their property, that

6:11

they had

6:14

misunderstood where the property lines

6:16

were, and had stuck

6:18

their fence two inches onto their

6:20

property and refused to

6:22

move it. And

6:25

these people were just besides

6:27

themselves. And

6:29

then I've met people, again, who have

6:31

had children murdered and can let it

6:33

go. I've worked with people who,

6:35

you know, after the

6:38

attacks on 9-11 or even

6:40

more recently in

6:42

the country of Columbia as a

6:44

response to their civil war. Some

6:47

of the factors that appear

6:50

to facilitate or impede forgiveness,

6:52

the biggest one is narcissism,

6:55

that a self-centered,

6:58

lacking empathy point of view

7:00

is probably the biggest obstacle

7:02

to forgiveness. And as

7:05

our culture becomes more and more

7:07

narcissistic, it appears that it gets

7:09

harder and harder to forgive, that

7:12

studies of college students

7:15

have shown like

7:17

a dramatic rise in the lack

7:19

of empathy over the last 20

7:21

years. The

7:25

norming of the test

7:27

for narcissism, so

7:29

probably in the last 40 years, has

7:32

had to be changed because

7:35

what used to be seen

7:37

as narcissistic behavior is

7:40

now normal, a

7:42

kind of entitlement, a

7:44

self-centeredness, and a lack of empathy.

7:48

So it's an inability to

7:50

take somebody else's side. It's

7:54

an inability to feel emotions

7:56

that other people might have.

8:00

kind of like

8:02

nobody should do this to me. That

8:05

those are the cognitive places

8:08

inside that make forgiveness

8:10

really difficult. I

8:12

completely get the relationship between narcissism

8:14

and forgiveness. But what about in

8:16

situations where somebody has wronged the

8:19

other person repeatedly and they keep

8:21

forgiving and forgiving and forgiving and

8:23

they're giving so much and the

8:25

other person isn't offering much in

8:27

return. Do you continue to forgive

8:30

or do you just say, hey,

8:32

that's enough and if so, how does that make

8:34

you a narcissistic person when you've tried to give

8:36

them the benefit of the doubt? So

8:38

like your partner's a drunk and

8:41

they come home every weekend drunk

8:44

and you continue to forgive them.

8:47

Exactly. Yeah, you know, our

8:50

quick and kind of fast answer to

8:52

that was forgiveness

8:55

and our lobotomy are not the

8:57

same. That if

9:00

you forgive somebody for bad behavior,

9:04

that's very healthy. If

9:07

you continue to enable bad

9:09

behavior, that's not healthy at

9:11

all. And then the problem

9:13

is not with the forgiveness, but with the

9:15

enabling. So you

9:17

can forgive somebody and

9:20

yet you can still draw boundaries. You

9:23

can still have some capacity to

9:25

say no, that

9:28

the forgiveness again does not mean

9:30

that your critical faculty shut down.

9:33

And so somebody who continues

9:35

to have like an

9:38

ongoing relationship with somebody who

9:40

mistreats them, the forgiveness

9:42

is not the issue. It's

9:45

the lack of self-respect,

9:47

the lack of appropriate boundaries or

9:50

the lack of compassion

9:52

for oneself. So forgiveness

9:54

doesn't mean you're condoning the behavior.

9:57

It's 180 degrees from there. that

10:00

forgiveness is a

10:02

very difficult practice because

10:04

you start with a

10:06

full recognition that wrong

10:08

was done. So it's

10:11

the opposite of condoning. It's

10:14

like if you look at the

10:17

South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission,

10:21

the beginning of it was true, which

10:23

is, this is what

10:25

happened. These are the horrors that were done.

10:28

And it's only now that we can think of

10:30

letting it go. So

10:33

what makes forgiveness so difficult

10:36

is that it has no condoning in it.

10:39

They did wrong. But

10:41

I'm not going to burden myself, and

10:43

I'm not going to burden my family

10:45

or my culture with

10:48

bitterness. And so

10:50

it's not a whitewashing, but

10:53

a deeper level and

10:56

an ego transcendence where

10:59

I see the harm. I

11:02

just don't have to stay

11:04

addicted or attached or

11:07

obsessed with the harm that

11:09

I move on. What mistakes

11:12

do people make when they offer

11:14

forgiveness and then find themselves at

11:16

odds with the person very soon

11:19

after? I

11:21

don't know that the forgiveness then is

11:23

the problem. So

11:25

let's say you, I hear you

11:28

saying, let's

11:30

say you have a partner and they cheat

11:33

on you, but your relationship

11:35

was pretty bad, so the cheating wasn't

11:37

the whole issue. And

11:39

they cheat on you, you forgive them.

11:42

But you're still fighting all the time because

11:44

you didn't have a good relationship or there

11:46

were real issues. Forgiveness

11:49

does not wipe

11:51

the slate entirely clean of things.

11:54

It gives us peace and

11:56

sight. So Let's just

11:58

take the heat wave. So.

12:01

It's a it's gonna be a hundred

12:03

degrees near and you can thing. Was.

12:06

This things and I'm I know cause

12:08

the wall. And you can let

12:10

them ruin your day. For.

12:12

You can thing play this thing some

12:14

hot, more comfortable, and then you can

12:16

sell yourself. Well. That's

12:19

not unusual on planet Earth. People.

12:21

Get hot nonconference. I can cope with

12:23

it. Was. You can

12:26

say yeah I'm have no

12:28

confidence and living in Northern

12:30

California. Ninety. Eight percent

12:32

of the games are delightful. Some.

12:35

Sort. It out. There's all

12:37

sorts of ways for was fun.

12:39

But. Let's say if you for year

12:41

with mean. It doesn't mean

12:43

you're not uncomfortable with you have no

12:46

bitterness. And know tightening

12:48

around yourself as the victim

12:50

of the he. Says

12:52

he and you have to handle it because

12:54

it's part of your life. So.

12:56

Forgiveness weaves you from the

12:58

the sticky notes that makes

13:01

you a big film. And

13:03

freed you from having to create

13:05

a story around for you. That's

13:08

what. Forgiveness that. And

13:10

I know you See, you tell

13:12

people that instead of mentally replaying,

13:15

you're hurt over. and over and

13:17

over again seek out new ways

13:19

to get what he wants. Tell

13:21

us more about about that. And how

13:24

just reliving the heard over and

13:26

over again is not helpful? What

13:28

are the things that people do?

13:30

A lot of. His

13:32

they complain about trying to get

13:34

laid out of the stone. And

13:37

so they fight the stone

13:39

say. Well. You know, stone

13:41

you're supposed to give may lead to

13:44

a wider. Because. I wanted.

13:47

A lot of times people have a

13:49

partner that they've been married for decades.

13:51

doesn't give them what they want. And

13:54

they continue to try to give blood from

13:56

the stone. Many. Times people

13:58

have a job that is. Britain they

14:00

continue to go to work and

14:02

thing while it's gotta be good

14:04

so if you are in a

14:07

situation or have a fast situation.

14:09

Which. Giving me your name. Continuing.

14:13

Said try to get your needs

14:15

met by definite situation. Is

14:18

probably pretty close. The example is

14:20

super. So

14:22

what forgive the says is

14:24

iceberg near. Whatever. It

14:26

is a was a meeting mining you. But.

14:29

It doesn't meet my needs. go away. It

14:31

just means I stopped feeding my head

14:34

against the law and try to get

14:36

my needs met some playground. Set.

14:38

So simple and so

14:40

film and commonsense. Said.

14:43

It's still remarkable. Sunday with

14:45

that's not an obvious saw

14:47

this point we've been. Talking

14:49

about forgiving other people, but I

14:51

think it's almost harder to forgive

14:53

ourselves, and I know my case

14:56

I've got with a lot. Self

14:58

blame for things. I've done over

15:00

the years that maybe weren't big

15:02

deals that I just beat myself

15:04

up over them when I'm feeling

15:06

down. How can we really. Truly

15:09

get over at the blame we put

15:11

ourselves and we put on ourselves for.

15:13

Situations that are in the past and we

15:15

want to move on from. I'll

15:18

answer that rounded or sponsors that

15:20

I seen a much bigger problem.

15:23

For. The human race is that were

15:26

too forgiving of ourselves. A

15:28

big be human race. Soccer's much

15:30

more. From. Individuals

15:33

and not feeling remorse

15:35

and we'll. Send. From

15:37

feeling so much like. Most

15:40

of the bear perpetrated in

15:42

this world he bought justified.

15:45

And that are an ominous

15:47

say for most of us.

15:49

The real harm we've done

15:51

we justify rather than like

15:53

cringing at. Once. Once

15:55

that his his side and that I've

15:57

been so you that some people. struggle

16:00

more with forgiving themselves.

16:03

And those are more women than men.

16:07

Or whatever, whether it's

16:09

genetics or socialization or

16:12

some combination, women

16:14

can, and

16:16

this is not exclusive, but they

16:18

tend to be harder on themselves.

16:21

The purpose, and you wanna be

16:23

careful with this because it's good

16:25

to have a conscience. And

16:28

you want an active part of

16:30

you that reminds you that, hey,

16:32

you're not perfect, you screw

16:34

up. And

16:36

sometimes a little twinge

16:39

of remorse or guilt can

16:42

remind you to have appropriate humility

16:45

so that it makes you a much better human

16:47

being. But

16:49

if you're obsessed with

16:51

it or it stops

16:53

you from functioning optimally,

16:56

then that needs to be

16:58

unwound. And

17:00

the most obvious answer

17:04

is self-acceptance. That

17:08

one, all human beings are flawed.

17:11

All human beings make mistakes.

17:15

And human mistakes are

17:17

forgivable. It's a three-step

17:19

process that all

17:21

humans make mistakes, all. I

17:24

have made mistakes as a human

17:26

being, and it's forgivable.

17:30

With the self-forgiveness piece, the

17:32

most important piece of it

17:35

though is to learn, not

17:38

just to feel better. Doesn't

17:40

really matter that much whether

17:42

you stop feeling there. What

17:46

matters is, as the

17:48

12-step program show, did you

17:50

make amends? Did you

17:52

say you're sorry if you

17:55

harmed yourself? Did you change?

17:57

Did you grow? Did you? adapt

18:01

different habits. Those are the

18:03

crucial ingredients for moving

18:05

ahead. The last

18:07

piece is sometimes if

18:10

you particularly harden yourself, you

18:13

need to learn to pay particular attention to

18:15

the good that you do. And

18:18

you need to really focus on it. So yes,

18:20

I may have let my family down in

18:22

this way, but in this

18:25

other 27 ways, I was

18:27

absolutely wonderful. And that

18:30

can be a nice answer to

18:32

self-effect. Does time

18:35

always heal the hurt? No,

18:39

but it's a good

18:41

start that time

18:44

does tend to

18:46

lower the hurt. But

18:49

if you look at all worlds

18:51

and all the intergroup,

18:54

tribal, religious, cultural

18:58

grievances that exist,

19:01

many, many, many people

19:04

practice over time rehearsing,

19:08

rehashing, and deepening

19:10

the grievances. So

19:13

there are families that

19:15

stay estranged for generations.

19:18

There are parents who hate

19:20

each other the entire

19:23

life of their children. So

19:27

it's more what we

19:29

do inside of us

19:31

than just time. Time

19:35

will reduce most

19:37

wounds and hurts unless

19:40

we or the people around

19:43

us need either

19:45

an enemy or a common foe

19:48

to make us feel better. That's

19:51

the hidden piece that is difficult.

19:54

Do you think that right now with

19:56

everything going on with COVID, that

19:58

this is a good time for you? for us

20:00

to work on estranged relationships because you

20:02

could make the argument two ways. You

20:05

could say that now is a good

20:07

time because we're all sitting down with

20:10

our thoughts and we have time for

20:12

phone calls and we can really think

20:14

about how lucky we are to survive.

20:17

But I also think you could make the argument

20:19

that it would be time that we could spend

20:22

just dwelling on what somebody else has done for

20:24

us and we're in bad moods because we can't

20:26

leave the house. What do you think and what's

20:28

your initial impression in terms of just whether

20:31

or not people are using this time to

20:33

work on relationships? Well, one

20:35

of the simple entrees to

20:37

that is almost everyone has

20:40

had losses and limitations in

20:42

the program. So the not

20:44

well off have lost their

20:47

jobs or have had

20:49

the hours. The well off

20:51

appear to be keeping their job but

20:54

they've had limitations in

20:56

travel or in like

20:59

human interaction. So

21:01

for many of us we

21:03

could say that we're an

21:05

experience of shared suffering. That

21:08

in and of itself can

21:10

lead to forgiveness. What

21:15

you read about is that a lot

21:17

of families now that they're

21:19

stuck with each other so much, it's

21:22

made it challenging. So if you have

21:25

a partner with a bad habit and

21:28

they were gone 10 hours a

21:30

day and now that bad habit

21:32

is working in the bathroom while

21:34

you're working in the kitchen, that

21:38

could make getting along

21:40

with that person even

21:42

more challenging. So an

21:45

empathic, compassionate understanding of

21:47

almost the universality of

21:50

this suffering is

21:53

really helpful. The second piece

21:55

is for many of us,

21:58

the restriction. on

22:01

connecting with people we care

22:03

for or know may have

22:05

shown us one, how

22:07

important they are. But if we're

22:10

lucky, they will teach us to

22:12

not take them for granted. And

22:15

that could be a tremendous

22:17

blessing from this. And when

22:19

you don't take people for

22:21

granted, you become more forgiven.

22:24

When you recognize the gifts

22:26

and generosity that

22:28

they bring, you tend to

22:30

be more able to overlook the

22:33

cost. So almost

22:35

like when you smell the rose

22:38

and you appreciate the

22:40

rose's beauty, it's

22:43

a lot easier to forgive

22:45

the fact that it has

22:47

thorns. And that's a metaphor

22:49

for every person because every

22:51

person comes with thorns. How

22:54

can journal writing help in

22:56

the process of forgiveness? Because

22:59

journal writing is one of

23:01

the safest, easiest methods

23:04

of self exploration and

23:06

self expression. And

23:08

that first part of forgiveness,

23:10

which is sharing

23:12

and grieving and releasing and

23:17

feeling and the whole

23:19

human experience of suffering. One

23:24

of the easiest ways is just

23:26

write about it and to share

23:28

it even if it's just shared

23:30

with yourself, but getting it out

23:33

is in and of itself therapeutic.

23:35

Dr. Luskin, as you know, our show

23:37

is called Nobody Told Me. So at

23:40

the end of each program, we ask

23:42

our guests, what is your Nobody Told

23:44

Me lesson? So in your case, what

23:46

did nobody tell you about forgiveness that

23:48

you wish that you knew before

23:50

you had your eye opening experience

23:53

with forgiveness? I

23:55

wish that I had known it

23:57

literally had nothing to do with.

24:00

religion or Christianity or anything like

24:02

that. I wish that I had

24:05

known it required

24:07

the full expression of

24:10

suffering before you could release it.

24:12

And I wish that I had known that

24:15

it was a lot simpler than I thought.

24:17

And I

24:19

didn't know any of that before I started.

24:22

What's the best piece of advice you

24:24

would give someone who is struggling to

24:27

forgive a person or a

24:29

situation? Depends on their

24:31

age. If they were older,

24:34

I would remind them that time is

24:36

short and that they're mortal. And

24:39

like, don't waste any more of

24:41

this precious time arguing with your

24:44

past. If they were younger,

24:46

I would remind them

24:48

that how you deal with

24:50

difficulty interpersonally will play

24:53

a big role in whether or

24:55

not you can maintain and set

24:57

up a successful

24:59

intimate partnership. So

25:01

use it as training. That

25:04

would be the difference between young and old.

25:07

Wow, you've given us such amazing information

25:09

during this interview. And I just know

25:11

it's gonna help so many people. How

25:14

can people connect with you and learn about what

25:17

you're up to? And if they wanna learn more

25:19

about forgiveness, where can they go? Yeah,

25:22

at this point, I'm not that much of a public

25:25

person, but

25:27

they could simply Google my

25:29

name and they'd see probably 100

25:33

YouTube videos and the books that I've

25:35

written. And

25:37

there's so much out

25:39

in the public domain about the work that

25:42

I've done that they could

25:44

learn a huge amount about forgiveness

25:46

by putting my name in a

25:49

little box there. And you do

25:51

have a website called learningtoforgive.com, right?

25:54

I do. We were looking at that

25:56

and that's a real wealth of information. So, well,

25:59

thank you so. very much. We really appreciate

26:01

you coming on with us and appreciate

26:03

your advice. You

26:06

know, thank you. I made a

26:08

commitment a long time ago. It's

26:10

interesting. Not that much after being

26:14

the recipient of Monica

26:16

and Bill's experience that

26:19

for whatever reason, we

26:22

were chosen to talk about forgiveness

26:24

and I was going to respond

26:27

when people asked me to do

26:29

that. So thank you very much.

26:31

Well, thank you. We very much

26:34

appreciate your time. Our thanks again

26:36

to Dr. Fred Luskin. His books

26:38

are Forgive For Good and Forgive

26:40

For Love. His website again is

26:43

learningtoforgive.com. I'm Jan Black. And I'm

26:45

Laura Owens. You're listening to Nobody Told

26:47

Me. Thank you so much for joining

26:49

us.