0:00

Welcome to

0:02

Nobody Told

0:04

Me. I'm Jan Black. And

0:06

I'm Laura Owens. And we

0:09

are thrilled to welcome

0:18

bestselling author Elizabeth Lesser to

0:20

this episode. Her books include

0:22

Broken Open, How Difficult Times

0:25

Can Help Us Grow and

0:27

Mero, Love, Loss, and What

0:29

Matters Most. Her newest book

0:31

is called Cassandra Speaks. When

0:33

women are the storytellers, the

0:35

human story changes. And

0:37

Elizabeth is the co-founder of

0:39

Omega Institute, which is recognized

0:41

internationally for its workshops and

0:43

conferences in wellness, spirituality, creativity,

0:45

and social change. And she's

0:47

given two very popular TED

0:49

Talks and is one of

0:51

Oprah Winfrey's Super Soul 100, which

0:54

is a group of 100 leaders who

0:56

are using their voices to elevate humanity.

0:58

And it's a very prestigious group. So

1:00

congratulations on that. And welcome to the

1:02

show. Thank you. What a pleasure to

1:05

be here. Elizabeth, you have

1:07

written some wonderful books in the past,

1:09

but your new book is a little

1:11

bit different than those. Talk to us

1:13

about what inspired Cassandra Speaks. I've

1:15

always been someone who walks

1:17

these dual paths. I think a lot

1:20

of us are like this, but this

1:22

has been a big thing in my

1:24

life. I've been both someone really concerned

1:26

with the world. I have some activism

1:28

that I have followed forever. At the

1:30

same time, I consider myself a

1:32

spiritual seeker, someone who's done a

1:35

lot of work on myself, who

1:37

helps other people work quietly

1:39

in the realms of psychology and

1:41

spirituality. And I've always wanted to

1:43

marry these two parts of myself,

1:45

the activist, and then I made

1:48

up a word for it, the

1:50

inner-vist, the person who

1:52

believes like as Gandhi did, be

1:55

the change you want to see in the

1:57

world. But then there's some really bad stuff

1:59

in there. in the world and I want to

2:01

go out and change it. And one of those things

2:03

has always been what seems

2:05

to be a bad rap women

2:08

have gotten forever, back

2:10

all the way to the stories of

2:12

Eve and Cassandra and Pandora and things

2:14

like that. Born second,

2:16

second in creation but first to

2:18

sin. And that kind of lack

2:21

of trust in women's

2:23

voices has stuck to

2:26

us and kept us from

2:28

being the best we can be and helping

2:30

the world be the best it can be.

2:33

So the book is called Cassandra Speaks

2:35

and for those of us who aren't familiar

2:37

with her, who was Cassandra?

2:40

Well Cassandra was a princess

2:42

in Greek mythology and I

2:45

kind of emphasize

2:47

mythology because all of these old

2:49

stories are myths that somebody made

2:52

up and told and spoke

2:54

throughout the ages and they became

2:56

story and they became society whether

2:59

they're biblical myths or Greek

3:01

myths. And Cassandra

3:04

was a big figure in Greek mythology.

3:06

She was the most beautiful princess of

3:09

King Priam who was the king of

3:11

Troy, an enemy of Greece.

3:14

And all the men were after her

3:17

including the gods, Zeus,

3:19

king of the gods. Zeus's son

3:21

Apollo really wanted her and

3:24

he promised her a gift that

3:26

he would give her the

3:28

ability to see into the future

3:31

clairvoyance prophecy. And she

3:33

wanted that but she didn't

3:35

understand that part of the deal was that then she

3:37

would have sex with him right away. And

3:40

she took the gift and

3:42

then when she rejected his advances

3:45

he was furious. So Apollo as

3:47

the story goes spat a curse

3:49

into her mouth and that was

3:51

you will speak the truth, you

3:53

will know the truth, you

3:55

will see what your country needs, you

3:58

will speak it but no one.

4:00

will believe you." So she did

4:02

see the truth. She saw how

4:05

ridiculous the war between Troy and

4:07

Greece would be, how all of her

4:10

family would die from it, how the

4:12

city would be reduced to rubble, and

4:15

she would say it, and they would

4:17

call her hysterical and too emotional and

4:19

too afraid and stop talking, let the

4:21

men talk, and eventually

4:23

everything she predicted came true and

4:26

she went mad from knowing the

4:28

truth but not being trusted.

4:31

What do you think the impact is on

4:33

women who feel like they can't trust themselves

4:36

in their own voice because there's a big

4:38

one? Yeah,

4:40

the impact is both personal. We

4:43

all know what happens when

4:45

you want something, know something, understand

4:48

something, but can't find the way to

4:50

say it or you're living in a

4:52

family or a marriage or

4:55

a culture or a corporation

4:57

or a workplace where you're

5:00

afraid to speak your truth either because

5:02

that's what we've been told as women

5:04

forever or there actually is a good

5:06

reason for you not to. You'll lose

5:09

your job, you'll get dominated

5:11

by your mate, all

5:14

the things that that keep women

5:16

from saying our truth and what

5:18

happens is we either make ourselves

5:20

sick from sitting on what we

5:22

know or we don't

5:25

get the job we want and

5:27

our relationships aren't full of truth

5:30

and energy and power

5:32

and joy or on the

5:36

big world stage

5:39

we see what happens now when

5:41

some women take over businesses or

5:44

countries, I mean look at Jacinda

5:46

Arden for example in New Zealand.

5:48

They have dealt with COVID-19 so

5:51

brilliantly because she led from her

5:53

core competency as a woman and

5:56

I happen to believe that

5:58

if more women truly our

6:00

voices and our instincts and what

6:02

we think the world needs, the

6:06

world would be a better place. And

6:09

you say that many of

6:11

our foundational narratives that pretend

6:13

to be about and

6:15

for all of us were really

6:17

told only by a few of

6:19

us and therefore serve only a

6:21

slice of humanity. What's been

6:24

the harm in that if most of

6:26

these stories have been told by men?

6:29

Well, I really need to

6:32

be careful to say and I am careful

6:34

in the book, they're not all

6:36

bad stories and their morals aren't

6:38

all bad and the people

6:40

who told and wrote them and continue to tell

6:42

and write them aren't bad.

6:44

It's just seriously out of

6:47

balance. For example, what we

6:49

think of as the hero's

6:51

myth, the hero's journey

6:53

story, what it means to be a

6:56

hero, what it means to be courageous

6:58

and strong. That

7:01

is just one slice of what it

7:03

means to be courageous and strong. Most

7:06

of the stories talk about courage having

7:08

to do with war

7:10

and warriorship and the

7:13

kind of valiant going

7:15

forth and going into

7:18

battle. Now, sometimes humans have to

7:20

do that, but that isn't the

7:22

only way to be a hero.

7:25

And I think women have a

7:28

propensity within us, whether it's from

7:30

nurture or nature, it doesn't really

7:32

matter to me anymore, women carry

7:35

within us or most women do.

7:37

This tradition of

7:39

wanting to actually,

7:43

you know how we say

7:45

that under stress humans fight

7:47

or flight, that truism

7:50

that we say, were those studies

7:52

which started in the 1930s

7:55

of people under stress or Laboratory

7:59

Animal. Under stress there were only

8:01

done out on males. Mail.

8:03

Animals and mail humans and

8:05

under stress and duress, men

8:07

do tend to either. Fate.

8:10

Or. To sleep. Whether. Fleeing

8:12

means running away literally, or

8:14

fleeing through lack of connection

8:16

with other people. And as

8:19

recently as Two Thousand and

8:21

Five that was the first

8:23

time a woman researchers Shelley

8:25

Thomas i think I'm remembering

8:27

her name at U C

8:29

L Ne. Did. Research

8:32

And Women: Women animals,

8:34

Women. Humans. Do

8:37

under stress. And it's tremor.

8:40

And she came up with

8:42

the phrase tend and be

8:44

friend under stress women. In.

8:47

General. Tend to want

8:49

to take care of the least.

8:52

Ah, powerful, The most vulnerable in

8:54

a community and their instinct is

8:57

to be friend, which is to

8:59

create a sense of belonging so

9:01

people don't go into the fight

9:04

or flight mode. So.

9:06

Are fewer miss are all about

9:08

site and. Slight. Whether it's

9:11

the Odyssey or the creeps

9:13

heroes of the Bible, these

9:15

are men who use the

9:17

warrior ship notion of courage.

9:19

Well, there's other ways to

9:22

be courageous. Courageous. There's carrying,

9:24

there's tending, there's befriending. They're

9:26

creating a sense of belonging.

9:28

and I consider that very

9:31

courageous. We. Love having you

9:33

as part of our nobody told

9:35

me family of listeners. We know

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shopify.com/nobody. It's

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so interesting to me that you talk

11:44

about how women really do bring people

11:46

together and they can create this sense

11:49

of community, which is what I believe.

11:51

But I also feel like I grew

11:53

up with this idea that there are

11:55

a lot of mean girls and

11:57

that these are the girls that you really need.

12:00

to stay away from and that boys are a

12:02

little bit more easygoing and you should have

12:04

them as part of your friend group too

12:07

because girls won't always have your back. When

12:10

did that all start and this idea of

12:12

power that you talk about in the second

12:14

part of the book? Right.

12:17

This idea of girls being

12:19

basically like women don't support

12:21

each other. That

12:24

has not been my experience. My

12:27

experience, I mean I grew up in a

12:29

household of women. I came from a family

12:31

of four daughters, a grandmother,

12:33

a great aunt, my mother, one

12:36

very powerful father in

12:39

the family but my experience has

12:41

always been being in a community

12:43

of women and the

12:46

research in corporations and businesses

12:48

actually dispels that mean girl

12:50

myth. Of course there are

12:53

some mean girls. There are

12:55

mean boys. Girls

12:57

aren't uniformly always

12:59

nice and good. This isn't

13:01

a story of like women

13:03

good, men bad. There

13:07

are tendencies in women

13:09

that do

13:13

go out and connect. I mean just look

13:15

at yourself and look at your friends. Women

13:18

tend to have a lot more friends

13:21

than men do. I don't know about

13:23

the men in your life but it's

13:25

harder for men to form the kind

13:27

of bonds that women do, the sisterhood

13:29

of women, the friends groups, the book

13:32

groups, the groups, the talking, the communicating.

13:35

Women have been shamed for some of

13:37

our best qualities like you talk too

13:39

much. Have you heard that

13:41

before? You say women talk too much. Oversharing,

13:44

one of my least favorite

13:46

phrases. I think undersharing

13:48

is the real problem. Communication

13:51

is something that we have

13:53

honed as women talking out

13:55

problems as opposed to going

13:57

into fight or flight. Where

14:00

did it come from, the mean

14:02

girl idea? I think it's a

14:05

long, long tradition of keeping women

14:07

apart from each other because there's

14:09

a fear of what happens when

14:11

women gather, you know, the whole

14:14

thing of witches and covens. What

14:16

do you mean witches? It was just a

14:19

bunch of women sitting around, cooking

14:21

and talking. You

14:25

know, you write that when women compete,

14:28

words like ambitious and assertive take

14:30

on a negative connotation. Explain why

14:32

that's happened and how you'd like

14:35

to see that change. Well,

14:38

you know, when men play

14:40

sports or join

14:43

political debate or

14:47

all the arenas where competition

14:49

is actually a good and

14:51

natural and fun

14:54

thing to do when we pit

14:56

ourselves either physically

14:59

or intellectually against

15:01

each other and together come up

15:04

with something better because we're playing

15:06

this game. That's all competition means.

15:09

We have that urge within us women

15:11

do to be our best selves, to

15:13

push up against others, to

15:15

bring each other along. When

15:18

men do that, it's seen as

15:20

the band of brothers and something

15:22

healthy. When women

15:25

do it, it's seen as

15:27

women being unappealingly

15:29

aggressive and trying

15:32

to get ahead and showing

15:34

off and all the things

15:36

that are seen in the male arena

15:39

are natural and exciting and

15:41

fun. It's

15:44

kept us, it's kept women,

15:46

I believe, from flaunting

15:50

our excellence, our

15:52

brilliance, our goodness and

15:55

also bringing the best of us out

15:59

into... into a greater

16:01

arena. So

16:03

then what are some good ways

16:05

for us to start a conversation

16:07

comfortably about this amongst friend groups

16:09

or in a work setting where

16:11

you have both women and men

16:13

present? It seems like

16:16

we often wanna stay away from

16:18

the idea of femininity and women

16:21

in power when we're in a casual

16:23

setting, but I feel like those are

16:25

the settings where change can

16:27

actually really happen because people are more willing

16:29

to talk from the heart. Well,

16:32

what was so interesting to me, the

16:35

reason I even came to write the book

16:37

is that for about 20 years,

16:40

I've been convening a conference called

16:43

Women and Power. I started it

16:45

because about 20 years ago when

16:47

I put those two words together

16:49

in my own life, in my

16:51

own organization, at home, I

16:54

felt so uncomfortable, women and power. Like, you

16:56

know how we feel that too. That's really

16:58

interesting that you say that. Yeah,

17:00

it's like it makes people uncomfortable. It

17:02

makes me uncomfortable. It makes men uncomfortable.

17:05

It makes friends uncomfortable. Why?

17:07

I wanted to understand why. I

17:09

started bringing women from

17:11

many different spheres of influence

17:14

to speak at this conference,

17:16

whether they were elected officials

17:18

or artists or

17:21

activists or the

17:23

first woman astronaut I would

17:25

bring the Nobel Peace Prize

17:28

women who from all over

17:30

the world. Year after year, I

17:32

would bring different leaders and thousands

17:34

of women would come to these

17:36

conferences. I

17:40

was so surprised how even among

17:42

very powerful women, I remember once

17:44

Jody Williams, who had won the

17:47

Nobel Peace Prize for trying

17:50

to ban land mines as weapons

17:52

of war. She had

17:55

walked across fields in countries where

17:57

land mines were still detonated as

17:59

a way. of proving to

18:01

the world, we must get rid of these

18:04

landmines. She risked her life. And when I

18:06

asked her on the stage, so where do

18:08

you get your power from? She said, I

18:11

don't consider myself powerful. And

18:14

that blew my mind. I was like, what do

18:16

you mean? You're very powerful. She said, I don't

18:18

like the word power. And what I've come to

18:21

see is that as

18:23

power has been defined over

18:27

the years, whether it's by

18:29

Machiavelli or Sun Tzu, The

18:31

Art of War, all the texts, even

18:34

the corporate how-to

18:37

books, we define

18:39

power as synonymous with battle

18:41

and war and

18:45

getting something over someone and

18:47

using fear and manipulation. And

18:51

I began to explore with the women

18:53

on the stage and the audience, what

18:55

if we redefined what power meant? What

18:57

if all power means is this desire

18:59

to make a difference in the

19:01

world, to shine your stuff, to

19:04

strut the God given gifts you

19:06

were given, but not to do

19:08

it on the backs of someone

19:10

else. Is there a way

19:12

to do power differently? And

19:14

all the research I have looked

19:16

into all these conversations I've been

19:19

part of exhibits

19:21

that yes, there is a way to

19:23

do power differently. And if

19:25

women get in touch with our core

19:28

voices, we will know how

19:30

to do it differently. You

19:33

touched on the Nobel Prize a moment ago

19:35

and I wanted to follow up with that

19:37

because you write that a good way

19:40

to measure the ubiquity of

19:42

the male perspective masquerading as

19:44

the human perspective is to

19:46

check out the Nobel Prize winners over

19:48

the years. Can you share a

19:51

little bit about that in terms of the balance between

19:53

male and female winners? Yeah,

19:57

it's stunning. The way I even

19:59

came to look in. into it was someone

20:01

suggested to me, why don't you get

20:03

all the women Nobel Peace Prize winners

20:05

to come to your conference? And

20:07

I said, that's ridiculous. How

20:09

would we fit them all on the stage? Maybe

20:12

just a few. And then when I looked into

20:14

it, this was about 10 years ago, there

20:16

were only six of them out of

20:19

something like 200, because

20:24

some of them have been given to groups. And

20:26

I thought, wow,

20:28

women, we have such

20:31

an inclination within us to work

20:33

for peace, to work for

20:35

harmony and cooperation. How is it there

20:37

can be so few women

20:39

Nobel Peace Prize winners? Now since then,

20:41

I think four

20:44

or five more have been added into that

20:46

small group, which

20:48

is a sign of success. I mean, I

20:50

see signs of success everywhere

20:53

that women are, we are taking

20:55

our places all over the world.

20:57

We are trying to do power

20:59

differently. But if you look at

21:02

the Nobel Prize for literature, for

21:04

chemistry, for all kinds of medicine,

21:08

it is really, really

21:10

telling how few have been

21:12

given to women. And

21:14

of course the answer is, well,

21:17

women back then in the 1920s

21:19

weren't in chemistry, weren't in blah,

21:22

blah, but that

21:24

isn't exactly true. And

21:26

let's make sure it really isn't

21:28

true from now on. What

21:31

advice would you have for parents of

21:33

young girls in terms of just preparing

21:35

them for what they're going to come

21:37

up against in the world?

21:39

You think about how they could look

21:41

at these statistics on paper and feel

21:43

like, well, I might as well not

21:45

even try or becoming the first female

21:47

president. I don't even need to try.

21:50

What should parents say to these girls

21:52

to give them hope, but also

21:54

give them the tools to cope with

21:56

the fact that they are going to

21:58

face some challenges. Well, I

22:01

want that question to be also, and

22:03

what should we say to our boys,

22:06

because we need to say things to

22:08

both of them. I'm the mother of

22:10

sons, and I remember hearing

22:13

my friends say when my boys

22:15

were little, I tell my girls,

22:17

you can do anything a boy

22:19

can do. And I

22:21

thought, if I said to my

22:23

boys, you can do anything a girl can

22:26

do. That would seem

22:28

so weird. It

22:30

would. And would they feel

22:32

a sense of quote unquote emasculation, or

22:34

that, you know, I can call a

22:37

girl, you're a tomboy and she feels

22:39

good. I could tell a boy you're

22:41

a sissy and he would feel terrible.

22:45

And so what

22:48

I want is for boys

22:50

to be able to be told, you know

22:52

what girls have done over the years, caring

22:56

for children, caring for the

22:59

elders, taking

23:01

care of the whole community,

23:03

knowing what they feel, talking

23:06

about what they feel, helping

23:08

people heal emotionally,

23:10

spiritually, physically, you know

23:12

that that's a superpower.

23:15

You need to have that boys too. You

23:18

need to learn what women have learned. Women

23:20

have spent the past couple of hundred years

23:22

learning what men have always done, going

23:25

out into the world, prevailing, making

23:27

a living. If women can learn

23:29

that, you guys can

23:31

learn this. So I know I'm not quite

23:33

answering your questions about what do you tell

23:35

the girls, but I actually feel it's more

23:38

important. What do we tell the boys? What

23:40

do we tell the men? That to be

23:42

a man is to be

23:44

kind, is to communicate, is

23:46

to apologize, is to ask

23:48

for directions, that

23:51

men like are like, I don't

23:53

know how to do that. Well,

23:56

learn it because we have

23:58

learned it. I

24:00

had to kind of go against

24:02

the gears of my female conditioning

24:04

to learn how to read the

24:06

spreadsheets and to understand the budgets

24:08

and to negotiate and to to

24:11

hone my aggressive nature. And

24:13

I've also tried to keep intact the

24:16

parts of me that are

24:19

quote unquote feminine, which

24:21

are the emotionally

24:23

intelligent part of myself. I'd

24:26

like all of us to get to

24:28

the point where we all have all

24:30

of those qualities within us and they're

24:32

not ranked. They're all important. I

24:35

love the fact that you say the

24:37

best thing about being older is that

24:39

you finally trust your own point of

24:41

view. And I'm wondering in what ways

24:43

that has changed you. Yeah,

24:47

it was so long coming. I'm

24:49

in my 60s. It took so

24:52

freaking long to get

24:54

to that place. I had this what

24:56

I think so many

24:58

women have the imposter syndrome, even

25:00

though I knew

25:03

I was smart, even though I had worked so

25:05

hard to get into a leadership position. I

25:08

basically was always afraid I was going to be found

25:10

out that there was something. Everybody

25:13

worries about that. I loved how you talked

25:15

about that. Yeah, we

25:17

doubt ourselves. Men

25:21

do too, but women

25:23

really do. And women of color and

25:25

women who don't fit the norm,

25:28

we really doubt ourselves because we

25:30

don't conform to the qualities of

25:32

the incumbent leaders. So if

25:35

you don't conform to

25:37

those qualities, of course you're going to doubt

25:40

yourself. So I'm not that interested

25:42

in just getting our foot in the door.

25:45

That's not going to get rid of

25:47

the imposter syndrome because then we'll just

25:49

end up becoming exactly who the leaders

25:52

have always been. I'm

25:54

interested in bringing with

25:56

us the best

25:58

of our female-ness. even

26:01

as we hone our other core

26:04

competencies, so that

26:07

we do come to know who we

26:09

are and trust who we

26:11

are and love who we are, love

26:14

our bodies, love the way our minds

26:16

work, love our emotionality,

26:19

love our psyches, and

26:22

love our female self. What

26:25

do you think are the unique

26:27

things that women bring to the

26:29

pandemic that can help us grow?

26:32

I'm thinking back to your book, one of my favorite books,

26:34

Broken Open, and the subtitle

26:36

of that is, How Difficult Times

26:38

Can Help Us Grow. What

26:41

can women do to really motivate men and

26:43

motivate each other to get better in

26:46

such a crazy time? Yeah, and use

26:48

their voices. Well,

26:50

it is a crazy time. And

26:55

I look at how some of the

26:57

women leaders around the world, the

27:00

countries that have dealt the best with COVID, many

27:03

of them, most of them actually, are led

27:06

by women, and I've been checking out how

27:08

they do it. And

27:11

one of the ways is

27:13

it's counterintuitive, and it's what all

27:16

of that book, Broken Open, is about.

27:19

It's to admit that it's a difficult

27:21

time, to admit to each

27:23

other, to ourselves, to

27:25

our families, to our children,

27:28

to the organizations we lead,

27:30

that like, this

27:32

is hard. The way

27:34

we're kind of struggling and failing

27:37

and not knowing what to do,

27:39

it's okay. It's

27:41

okay. We don't... How could

27:43

we know? We've never been through it

27:45

before. So it's okay to admit

27:48

our humanness, our not knowing,

27:51

and once you do, then you're

27:53

able to look around. How

27:56

is that country dealing with it? I don't have

27:58

to be number one all the time. I can

28:01

expand my sphere of influence.

28:03

I can admit my mistakes.

28:06

I can say masks

28:08

don't work for two months and then

28:10

suddenly masks do work and say oh

28:13

we didn't know now we know. So

28:17

one of the things that doesn't

28:20

work is an entrenched ego

28:23

that must be right and can

28:25

never admit that they were wrong.

28:27

How do you grow and change

28:29

and learn if you don't start

28:31

off saying gosh, I

28:33

don't know becoming an I don't know it

28:35

all as opposed to a know it all.

28:37

Oh I love that. I've never heard that.

28:40

I love that. Elizabeth our show is

28:42

called Nobody Told Me and we always ask

28:44

our guests. What is your Nobody

28:47

Told Me lesson? So what

28:49

is it that nobody told you about

28:51

life or finding your voice or dealing

28:54

with upheaval or whatever it might be?

28:57

That nobody told you in life that you kind

28:59

of wish they had and you'd like

29:01

to pass on to somebody else so they don't have to learn

29:03

it the hard way. Oh my god. This

29:06

is a hard one. It

29:13

just came to me though, you

29:15

know. We tell

29:17

people find your voice be yourself say

29:20

your truth, but nobody told me that

29:22

when you do that's when

29:24

things really get hard. You know you think

29:26

like I'm gonna tell

29:28

it. I'm gonna say it and then the

29:32

heavens will open and the path will be

29:34

clear. No, maybe people won't

29:36

like you when you do that. Maybe

29:39

you'll lose some friends. Maybe you'll have

29:41

to make some big changes. Actually

29:43

finding your voice and speaking your truth

29:46

can make things even harder in the

29:48

short run, but in the long run

29:51

I It

29:53

is the path to freedom and creativity.

29:56

That's so true that a lot of times

29:58

I think we avoid We're trying to

30:00

put ourselves in uncomfortable situations, and in

30:03

doing that, we make ourselves more uncomfortable.

30:05

In the long run, it it's easier

30:07

to say quiet. It is. It's easier.

30:09

but it's not necessarily the best idea.

30:11

That kind of discernment. Yeah, I speak

30:13

now. do I not speak now? That's

30:15

a good thing to. And how can

30:18

people connect with you online and learn

30:20

more about the new, but. I'll

30:22

have a website where you can

30:24

learn about all my books and

30:27

other things. and it's Elizabeth lesser.org

30:29

And what about Social media? Facebook?

30:31

Instagram? got em all. If you

30:34

go to my website you can

30:36

just click Burnham. Alright,

30:38

Fabulous! A lizard. This isn't such a joy

30:40

to talk with you we knew it would

30:42

be and he did with the by yeah

30:45

I'm any more questions to ask you about

30:47

the other books to baby Oh come back

30:49

again I welcome fact this is fun of

30:51

the. It

30:53

you so much or thanks to

30:56

Elizabeth Lesser who's latest book is

30:58

called Cassandra Speaks With Women are

31:00

the story tellers, the human story

31:02

changes and a good. Her website

31:04

is Elizabeth Lesser. Org. I'm Jan

31:06

Black and I'm Laura. Wins take

31:09

you so much for joining us. You've been

31:11

listening to nobody told. Me: