0:11

Welcome to Nobody Told Me. I'm Laura

0:14

Owens. And I'm Jan Black. Have

0:16

you ever felt overwhelmed by the

0:18

amount of paper you've accumulated? Have

0:20

catalogs, magazines, and tech records taken

0:22

over more space than you'd like?

0:24

Are you at a loss to decide

0:26

how you'll ever conquer the paper

0:28

clutter around you? Well, if so, you'll

0:31

want to hear what our guest,

0:33

professional organizer Lisa Woodruff has to

0:35

say. Lisa's the author of several books

0:37

on organization, including the latest, The

0:39

Paper Solution, What to Shred, What

0:41

to Save, and How to Stop It from

0:44

Taking Over Your Life. Lisa, thank you so

0:46

much for joining us. Thank

0:48

you so much for having me. You

0:50

say the number one daily organizational challenge for

0:52

people is getting and keeping a handle on

0:54

the paper in their lives. Why do you

0:57

say that? You know, you think it's not.

0:59

You think that your paper lists and your

1:01

paper piles really don't matter that much. It's

1:03

just a little bit of mail here or

1:05

a note or two there or your to-do

1:07

list. But if you start

1:10

to really observe your life, paper

1:12

is everywhere. And where's

1:15

that paper? Where did I put that? Where

1:17

did I write that down? Did I mail

1:19

that bill? Where's the invitation for the party

1:21

we're supposed to go to? And you'll find

1:23

that your life is very paper based and

1:25

you're spending a lot of time trying to

1:27

find information, trying to corral information,

1:29

trying to get things done, and you never

1:31

get to the bottom of your paper pile.

1:34

When we first learned we were going to have

1:36

you on, I thought to myself, how is she

1:38

so interested in paper? Like what sparked this? And

1:40

there's a really interesting story. So tell us that.

1:43

Yes. So about 10 years ago, my father

1:46

fell ill and my sister and I were

1:48

his power of health care and power of

1:50

attorney and ultimately had to settle the estate

1:52

and sell our family home. And we found

1:54

that we were dealing with so

1:56

many emotional and family issues and planning funerals in

1:59

all of our communities. that, but there was

2:01

so much paper. Like because I was four hours

2:03

away, whenever I would end up at the hospital,

2:05

you know, every couple of weeks, they would give

2:07

me all of these numbers that were supposedly in

2:09

the range of normal, but I was like, well,

2:11

what was the number yesterday? What is the number

2:14

we're trying to get to? And how low does

2:16

this number get before you give them a blood

2:18

transfusion? And so we started writing all of this

2:20

down and it wasn't until we created a binder

2:22

where we could write all of the information down

2:25

and pass it back and forth so that

2:27

we would have those numbers. We

2:29

had a better picture of dad's health. And

2:31

then I brought all the paperwork home

2:33

to Cincinnati. I grew up in the

2:35

Akron Cleveland area to settle the estate,

2:37

which took me nine months. And I

2:39

scoured everywhere, Amazon, blogs,

2:42

podcasts, everywhere. Like where is the checklist? Where

2:44

is the guide for how to take care

2:46

of somebody who's sick or settle in a

2:48

state? And there was no checklist.

2:51

Like so I

2:53

just had to go through all the paper and

2:55

ask lawyers and I would meet with lawyers as

2:57

a professional organizer for other clients. And I would

2:59

say, well, this check didn't get cleared or you

3:02

didn't know about this bank account. And they would

3:04

say, well, she didn't tell me. And I

3:06

said, well, how is she supposed to know

3:08

what to tell you? And they said, we

3:10

don't know. We can't see what's in your

3:12

filing cabinet. And I realized that lawyers were

3:14

frustrated. People were like, everybody's frustrated with knowing

3:16

that we need this paper, but we don't

3:18

know what paper we need and when we

3:21

need it. And whenever we need it, we're

3:23

in a very emotionally charged situation where we

3:25

aren't thinking as clearly as we normally would

3:27

be. And you're almost

3:29

sabotaging yourself because I mean, I've been in

3:31

that situation before where I'm panicked in terms

3:33

of trying to find a particular piece of

3:35

paper. And I know in the back of

3:37

my mind that I'm not thinking clearly, I'm

3:39

not going to the logical place where it

3:42

would be because I'm just getting overwhelmed.

3:45

And you'd rather be with your loved one, right?

3:47

Right. You'd rather be spending the last years of

3:49

your dad's life or days of his life with

3:51

him, not Trying to find a

3:53

piece of paper for a lawyer Or sitting

3:55

with your family in your family home, recounting

3:58

stories, not downstairs in the filing cabinet. Trying

4:00

to find a peepers you need for the layer

4:02

tomorrow? What? everybody else is getting to celebrate? Your

4:04

dad's voice. You talk about

4:06

how it plays a role in depression and

4:09

anxiety and I feel like in your situation.

4:11

It would just get so frustrated. There would have to

4:13

be a level. Of anxiety that would go

4:15

from okay. I'm anxious about. Going through

4:17

these papers to just anxiety in general

4:20

over other things, I mean it has.

4:22

To play some sort of a role in mental health. Definitely

4:25

because whenever you have these huge

4:27

life events divorces, death, weddings, births,

4:29

moving, nothing else stopped like your

4:31

job. nonstop. If your parents that

4:33

doesn't stop and and so you

4:35

end up taking it from sleep,

4:37

you end up to get from

4:40

any kind of self care personal

4:42

time that you have at so

4:44

you're You're not. You're. Not

4:46

sleeping enough, you're not replenishing yourself in

4:48

any way, shape or form because you're

4:50

trying to meet all the expectations you

4:53

had before this event in during this

4:55

event is it's just extremely stressful in

4:57

general. What advice would you have for

4:59

people who are coping with an illness

5:02

in the family? Whether it's their own

5:04

illness or the illness of a loved

5:06

one in terms of dealing with the

5:08

paper that. Is. Is inevitably

5:11

involved in that. Yeah.

5:13

For illness there two things. Number one. write

5:15

down all the symptoms, all the medications as

5:17

you start to like to Stephen Journal it

5:19

at the end of the day or somebody

5:21

is a caretaker like you know what and

5:23

is still for my daughter. I would notice

5:25

that she would have different symptoms. comes just

5:27

like. Her. Verb tenses would change

5:30

when her mood altered state would change

5:32

until I started observing. There were different

5:34

symptoms that she would have. They're not

5:37

scientific symptoms, but just like mannerisms or

5:39

he had oddities that she would do

5:41

that would suit me that she was

5:43

getting ready to need to be hospitalized.

5:46

So as a caregiver, you observe things

5:48

that are not medically relevant for doctors

5:50

but really help you with how people

5:52

are feeling. I remember when the kids

5:55

were little like in a sad, really

5:57

high fevers. The pediatrician. would always say how

5:59

are they acting? Like are they up and running around?

6:01

I don't care if it's 103 fever, the child's probably

6:04

fine, but if it's a 100 degree fever and

6:06

they're lethargic and they're on the couch, I want

6:08

you to bring them in immediately. So even these

6:11

daily symptoms, write those down. You will

6:14

notice things that are unique to each

6:16

person and how sick

6:18

or well they are based just on what

6:21

they're doing versus what they are telling you.

6:23

And then the second is to put all

6:25

of the medical bills that are coming in

6:27

in one box or one bag and everything

6:29

that comes in related to that is in

6:31

that bag and then just handle it every

6:33

two weeks or every month and just block

6:35

out a huge amount of time, open everything,

6:37

staple them together so that they don't get

6:39

lost until you have things reconciled. It really

6:41

is a full-time job to make sure the

6:43

insurance company is paying for what

6:46

they need to pay for so that you have less to pay on

6:48

your end. I'd love that for

6:51

a solution going forward for our lives,

6:53

but I'm just thinking, so we just

6:55

sold the home that I grew up

6:57

in. We were there for 27 years

7:00

and my mom unfortunately had the task

7:02

of going through the vast

7:04

majority of the papers. It was

7:06

very overwhelming, I think, for my sister, for me,

7:08

for my dad. So she went through most of that

7:10

stuff. And I know it was

7:12

even sentimental to me and for her to

7:15

go through things like our homework when we

7:17

were younger and assignments we turned in that

7:19

we haven't looked at in many, many years,

7:21

in 20 years, but at the same time,

7:23

it's hard to go through those. So what

7:25

would you say for people who are going

7:27

through a similar situation, moving and seeing things

7:30

when they look at the paper and say,

7:32

God, those are some good times or how

7:34

cute it was the kid was this young.

7:36

How can we get over that sentimental hump?

7:39

Yeah, so a couple of things. One, just do

7:41

like three to five files every single night. Like

7:43

grab three to five files, do them as if

7:45

like do the dishes, do the three files, do

7:47

the laundry, like just add it into your regular

7:50

day. And then as you find those sentimental things,

7:52

it sounds like you guys are all together and

7:54

doing this together. Have them put that in a

7:56

bucket so that when you guys are at the

7:58

end of the day, end of the day and

8:00

you've unpacked a bunch of boxes and you've gotten

8:02

the pizza and you're all sitting around go okay

8:04

let's see what funny thing we can find in

8:06

this box and pull it out and enjoy the

8:08

memory like you saved it this long don't just

8:11

pitch it like hold it up and go oh

8:13

my gosh I can't believe that you used to

8:15

draw the arms coming straight out of your head

8:17

as all children do because that's just like a

8:19

way kids are like oh look you did curly

8:21

hair on yours or my

8:23

daughter always had big lips when she was

8:25

drawing her first characters and my son always

8:27

had spiky hair and you have that conversation

8:30

right and you can still get rid of

8:32

the memory after that it's the sharing of

8:34

the memory before you get rid of the

8:36

paper and it'll make it easier for everyone

8:38

to let go of it after you've been able

8:40

to experience that together you

8:42

know one of the organizers that I was working

8:44

with when when we were going through this process also

8:47

said you like it you love

8:49

it take a picture of it you'll all

8:51

you know use your use your phone take

8:53

a picture of it and you'll have it and

8:55

then it'll always be there and

8:57

you'll know where it is and and I thought

8:59

that was a wonderful way of

9:01

dealing with a lot of things even like

9:03

favorite clothes that I had that I hadn't

9:06

worn in 20 years but you know meant

9:08

something to me now but they don't have

9:10

a picture that's true but it was nice

9:12

to be able to just take a picture

9:14

of it and and say goodbye that way

9:16

yeah you

9:19

know you talk about when your father passed

9:21

away that you all of a sudden faced

9:23

this this big personal tsunami

9:25

of papers and you

9:28

had to get rid of things like his

9:30

car catalog collection tell us more

9:32

about what that was like and the

9:34

and the emotions that you encountered going

9:36

through your father's lifetime

9:38

of papers it

9:41

was super difficult because my parents had gotten divorced

9:43

five years prior and while they split the possessions

9:45

in their house they didn't do it amicably so

9:47

they never split the filing cabinet so I not

9:50

only was going through my father's stuff but I

9:52

knew my mother's stuff would be in there as

9:54

well which was that part was

9:56

awkward so if you don't take care of

9:58

you know splitting everything you go through

10:00

a divorce then your children are going

10:03

to have to go through that. But

10:05

also when you look at your paper

10:07

specifically the car catalogs things like that,

10:09

that was my dad's passion project. It

10:11

had no financial ramification for the estate.

10:14

And if you're going to do like a

10:16

triage situation with your paper just you know

10:18

real quickly what would be important for my

10:20

kids or someone else to need and what

10:23

is not as important. Being able to take

10:25

those things that are really paper hobbies and

10:27

putting them in a separate filing cabinet and

10:29

just labeling them and saying you know

10:31

my passion project then if there

10:34

is an instance where somebody needs to come

10:36

in and go through your filing cabinets they

10:38

know that that whole filing cabinet drawer can

10:40

just be shredded or recycled that it doesn't

10:43

have any financial implications on the estate. Yeah

10:45

and I think it's important to mention as well that you

10:48

say that we can save less of what

10:50

we think that we need to without losing

10:52

what's important and that only 15% of our

10:55

paper actually needs to be saved. So I

10:57

think that's something to think about going forward

10:59

like you mentioned trying to separate

11:02

things from okay this is a passion

11:04

project versus something that's important. Not

11:06

everything is important even if we think that it is

11:08

at the time. Yeah

11:11

and my best example to that is manuals.

11:14

We save manuals for everything like even the

11:16

$15 toaster but even like you know $10,000

11:20

water heater or whatever we save all these manuals

11:22

and my question to you is when was the

11:24

last time you went in your filing cabinet got

11:26

out a manual and actually fixed something in your

11:28

house. If you did then save them

11:30

all but myself and all of my friends we call

11:32

a plumber we call an

11:35

electrician and never

11:37

once has that person come in my

11:39

house and said all right well I'll fix your furnace

11:41

but could you please first go get me the man

11:43

never they don't need it why

11:46

are we saving it? You

11:49

know I was surprised to read in

11:51

your book that 23% of people at

11:53

times pay their bills

11:57

late simply because they can't find

11:59

the bill. bill not because

12:01

they don't have the money. What

12:04

kind of a toll does this take? This

12:07

was me 20 years ago. Now, of course,

12:09

this was before I did online banking, but

12:11

even I didn't have my online banking 100%

12:13

digital until six months ago. This

12:15

was me with two babies under the age

12:17

of two running a business from home trying

12:19

to keep it all together. I literally was

12:21

paying my bills like just because I couldn't

12:23

find them and I did not have a

12:26

good system for regularly paying our bills. We

12:28

think that paper-oriented events shouldn't exist

12:30

because we should be paperless. So

12:33

because they shouldn't exist and we

12:35

should be paperless, we don't chunk

12:37

out time in our calendar for them. You

12:40

know you have to do dishes and take a shower

12:42

and do laundry and make your bed or not make

12:44

your bed. Those are all conscious habits that we have.

12:47

But as far as when do you pay

12:49

your bills? When do you reconcile your checkbook

12:51

or your calendar? When do you

12:53

go through your mail each week? Do you have

12:55

a set time that you do that or are

12:58

you just kind of doing it as the mail

13:00

comes in in the nooks and crannies? What ends

13:02

up happening is there's no set time so there's

13:04

no accountability and things flip through the cracks. And

13:07

you end up paying maybe interest rates

13:09

or fees that you otherwise wouldn't be paying.

13:12

Right. While

13:14

I was doing research for this interview, I

13:16

was looking around my apartment and thinking, my

13:18

goodness, this apartment has way too many things

13:20

in it but paper is not really one

13:22

of them. And I'm wondering if this could

13:25

possibly be a generational thing. As

13:27

a millennial, I don't own a printer

13:29

and I don't think I've had one

13:31

for easily five years, maybe even more.

13:34

So is that true of people my age

13:36

that we're going to end up with fewer

13:38

papers when we grow up when I'm my

13:40

mom's age and we're going through files? Is

13:42

it going to be that paper won't be the

13:45

the main thing that we're having to go through?

13:47

And yeah, just talk to us a little bit

13:49

about the generational differences. I think

13:51

it is true. Laura, do you have children? I do

13:53

not. Okay, so when you get

13:55

some of those little blessings, if you choose

13:57

to or if you are so blessed. You

14:00

will have more paper than you know what to do

14:02

with and I find that this is so true for

14:04

almost all millennials I talked to they're like I don't

14:07

even know why you're still dealing with those Lisa paper

14:09

isn't even a thing We are paperless society and then

14:11

they have a baby and they come crying to me

14:13

when that baby is one of you go I am

14:15

rounding in paperwork So I

14:17

do think that if you are a millennial

14:20

and you do not have children and you

14:22

do not own your house You probably could

14:25

be very paper minimalistic but when you own

14:27

a house or you get a baby you're

14:29

gonna be right there with us because These

14:32

are paper worthy events and and the other

14:34

thing is we're never going to be even

14:36

if you're a millennial you're never going to

14:38

be a hundred percent paperless because Just going

14:41

to the DMV to get your compliant

14:43

driver's license to fly in an airplane whenever they

14:45

open that back up again You're going to need

14:47

your Social Security card. You're gonna need your birth

14:50

certificate and you're going to need a paper

14:52

utility bill So

14:54

you're going to have to have paper They're

14:56

just America is built on paper events

14:58

and having to produce paper in different times

15:00

in your life So a lot of us

15:03

have this idea will be paperless and then

15:05

also if you read Marie Kondo's book She

15:08

will say you shouldn't have to

15:10

have any paper that is because in Japan

15:12

their birth certificates are digital They don't

15:14

have paper birth certificates. So

15:16

we have paper birth certificates marriage

15:18

certificates death certificates Tax

15:21

returns we have paper that we have to

15:24

Use and you also say that

15:26

many times I found this fascinating our papers

15:29

represent dreams and ideas Rather

15:32

than useful and profitable pursuits. Tell us

15:34

a little bit more about that Yes,

15:38

so before I was blessed with my

15:40

two bundles of joy through adoption We

15:43

went through infertility and so in my filing

15:45

cabinets I had files of you know, all

15:47

the infertility things we had tried books that

15:49

were related to infertility Medical

15:52

bills related to infertility that we wrote off

15:54

on our taxes or when I went to

15:56

college I got an early childhood degree and

15:58

I had created this corporate daycare center. I

16:00

even had the drawings made out and binders

16:03

related to that. So a lot of the

16:05

things that we've done as projects for school

16:07

or things we've clipped

16:09

out of newspapers or even recipes that you

16:11

will save to try someday, these are all

16:13

things that we want to do in the

16:16

future, but are not necessarily something that is

16:18

actionable that we're doing today or that we

16:20

do on a regular basis. Or

16:22

we'll ever do. Right. You

16:25

know. You

16:27

can always help. I have a lot of those

16:29

recipes that I've never made. Yeah. I was going

16:32

to say, but you know what? Those cookbooks, can

16:34

you ever imagine throwing them out? A lot of

16:36

them take up a lot of space, but we

16:38

do have cookbooks that my mom has had that

16:41

were given to her by her mom and you

16:43

know, they're, they're generational and you can't even imagine

16:45

parting with things like those. Like those are in

16:47

their own file. It's almost as important as medical

16:49

records. Yeah. Like she said of things that you're,

16:52

you're going to make this recipe. Exactly.

16:55

What effect do you think that schooling

16:58

and working from home is going to

17:00

have on the amount of

17:02

paper being used since we're not going to

17:04

have assignments to turn in in the same

17:06

way? Are you talking about

17:08

with the pandemic? You mean? Yes. Yeah.

17:11

So I am pretty adamant as

17:13

an educator myself that when

17:15

you write things down with your hand with a

17:17

pencil or pen on a piece of paper, you

17:20

are five times more likely to remember what you

17:22

write down with your physical hand than what you

17:24

type out. And there is a different brain process

17:26

that happens when we physically write things out or

17:29

draw or, you know, use our hands for things

17:31

versus just typing them on a computer. Additionally,

17:34

when you read things from a printed

17:36

out piece of paper or a book,

17:38

your brain absorbs it differently than when

17:40

it reads it on, on a computer.

17:42

So I feel like different children learn

17:45

better in different modalities. And

17:47

so my children learn

17:49

best on physical paper. So my daughter's

17:51

been going to community college and

17:54

when she's ready to have her assignment, we

17:56

go into the online portal and we print

17:58

everything out. And then she highlights and

18:00

we write notes about what she's supposed to do

18:02

first, second, and third, and then she goes off

18:04

and does that and brings that back to me,

18:06

and she would not be able to do that

18:08

just digitally from a computer. So give yourself permission

18:10

to go ahead and print it. Like even if

18:12

the school is not going to provide it in

18:14

printed form, I always had, for my

18:17

kids, the school would provide actually physical textbooks

18:19

even though they had them on their iPad.

18:21

Some kids just learn better that way. And

18:24

then also Organize 365 has actually created

18:26

a planner for the kids in our kids program

18:28

because keeping track of everything

18:30

on the computer, your assignments that you're

18:32

doing in your online class, plus what's

18:34

due by the end of the day,

18:36

plus your long-range projects is

18:38

really abstract and hard for kids, really

18:41

hard for everybody to do. But

18:43

it's hard for kids to do and then communicate that

18:45

to their parents and also to their teacher. And if

18:48

you can just get an old fashioned calendar and

18:50

write down the assignments that are due or get out

18:52

a legal pad and write down your classes for the

18:54

day and what you're doing in each class and then

18:57

put a little fishy through that when you're done, like

18:59

a little an X is connected.

19:01

So you're like, look, I did everything at the end

19:03

of the day. It will give you a great sense

19:05

of satisfaction. And then parents can look at their kids

19:07

list and be like, oh, I see that you wrote

19:09

everything down. I see that you crossed

19:11

everything out. You must be done. Or I see you have

19:13

these two things left. How can I help you get those done? And

19:16

it eases the communication versus a parent saying, what do

19:18

you have left to do? And the student trying to

19:20

find it or the parent going through a whole bunch

19:22

of emails and saying, get back over here. We got

19:24

to get this done. What

19:27

are the health hazards associated with

19:29

having a lot of paper around

19:31

your home? If

19:34

you have like an exorbitant amount of paper,

19:36

you're going to have more dust. Like I'm

19:38

allergic to dust. And I can also tell

19:40

when I do some people's filing cabinets, if

19:42

there's been some water in there, I can

19:44

tell if there's mold or mildew, but that's

19:46

very rare. What about

19:48

vermin and stuff? Yeah,

19:50

they like that too. I

19:54

mean, every house I've been in, we've had,

19:56

they might just like to be indoors as much as

19:58

people do is all I have to say. say about

20:00

that, like I don't really think it's necessarily totally

20:02

a cleanly thing, but the closer you are to

20:04

a wood, the more likely you're gonna find one

20:06

of those eventually. What should

20:08

we do if we find papers that we're going

20:11

to need some sort of records that

20:13

are water damaged or do have

20:15

damage from vermin or just any

20:17

sort of damage at all and we need to restore

20:19

them to an extent? Yeah,

20:21

if it's just like, so if it's like a legal

20:24

document, like a birth certificate or something like that, you

20:26

might have to go to the courthouse and get another

20:28

one produced. But for anything

20:30

else that's not like legally stamped or notarized, you

20:32

could just make a copy of

20:35

it, like on a copier and if you don't have

20:37

a copier or you don't have a printer, you can

20:39

go to the UPS store, you can go to Staples

20:41

or any of those office supply stores. They have copiers

20:43

there and you could just make copies. What's

20:46

wrong with getting a storage unit to

20:49

put all your paper in if you really have a ton

20:51

of it? I have no

20:54

problem with people getting storage units. I think

20:56

they serve a great purpose, especially if you're

20:58

going through a life transition and you can't

21:00

go through your physical possessions or your paper

21:02

in the amount of time that you need

21:04

to in order to sell a house or to move or something

21:06

like that. I'm very pro storage

21:09

unit. As long as you know how

21:11

long you're going to have that storage unit before you

21:13

actually tackle it and then what is your plan for

21:15

tackling it. So if you've lost a loved one and

21:17

you want to put it all in storage and then

21:19

in one year you're going to pull out two boxes

21:21

every month, I think that's totally fine as long as you can

21:23

afford it. And going forward,

21:25

if we're just starting today saying, hey, this

21:27

is a great thing to do, I want

21:30

to start saving less paper. Is it a

21:32

good idea to just maybe print something out

21:34

like you mentioned with your daughter's assignments, do

21:36

the assignments and then immediately throw something out

21:39

so you're not looking at it

21:41

in a couple of weeks? I'm like, well, I don't know

21:43

what to do with it. And I haven't made an initial

21:45

decision. Oh, yes. I recycle

21:47

and trash paper like hourly right before the interview.

21:49

I just went through my notes and I was

21:51

like, oh, that one's done, that one's done, that

21:53

one's done. I just put them in

21:55

the recycle pile. So paper is just there to serve

21:58

you. It's not a... a

22:00

record of everything you've done. So as soon as you can look

22:02

at that list and see that everything's done, go ahead and get

22:04

rid of it. I like to write one

22:06

thing on each index card. Index cards are very inexpensive.

22:09

They're easy to carry right with your phone. And then

22:11

as those things get done, I just recycle or

22:13

throw them away as I go through my day. So

22:15

it's not like a to-do list where I'm like,

22:17

well, I did four out of 14 things and

22:20

I have to rewrite it and keep carrying it. I would

22:22

rather just have all that on note cards. How

22:25

important is organization of paper

22:27

and other things around

22:29

the home? How important are those

22:32

things to a happy relationship? I

22:34

think the piece that is important

22:37

to a happy relationship is specifically

22:40

for women, the confidence you have in being

22:42

able to retrieve items when they're requested of

22:44

you. Usually it goes that way. Like a

22:46

man will make a request and the

22:48

woman will know the answer, but not where the piece

22:50

of paper is. And then she feels like, oh, I

22:52

have failed in this and I need to stop everything

22:54

so I can find this piece of paper. I

22:57

know as women have been doing the Sunday basket,

22:59

when they can even be like driving down the

23:01

road and they get that phone call, they could

23:03

say, great, it's located right here. You can go

23:05

get it and it's done. And they feel a

23:08

sense of confidence and also that they continue

23:10

on about their life instead of stopping, driving

23:12

back home, finding this thing that's needed right

23:14

away. What is the Sunday basket?

23:17

So the Sunday basket is kind of like your

23:19

inbox that you would keep on your kitchen counter.

23:21

It's where you put all your mail and your

23:23

actionable to-dos. And then I mentioned earlier that you

23:25

need a time every week to go through things.

23:27

So for me, that time is Sunday. That's when

23:29

I process through my mail and my bills and

23:32

what's gonna go on the calendar and empty out my

23:34

email inbox. And like you

23:36

say, progress is better than perfect in terms

23:38

of going through your things and don't just

23:41

let yourself fall into the trap of, well,

23:43

I can't go through all of it right now so I

23:45

might as well not even start. Exactly,

23:47

yes. You're never going to get through your

23:49

to-do list. Have you ever? Like, have you ever?

23:52

I've never. No, I don't think so. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

23:54

no, no, no, no, no. What are

23:56

you trying to do? So the Sunday

23:58

basket is more like all the possibilities. of how you

24:00

might spend your time next week. And as you go through

24:02

it, it usually takes about 90 minutes, pay the bills, go

24:04

through the calendar. And you look at all these possibilities and

24:07

you say, you know what, this week I'm gonna be able

24:09

to get through five of these or 10 of these. And

24:11

what you will find out is the fact that you're not

24:13

going to get it all done. But news flash, you're not

24:15

getting it all done right now. At least

24:17

you know it's in this box. If you need

24:20

it, you'll know where to go find it, but

24:22

you've proactively selected five things you're gonna get done

24:24

this week. And over time, it usually takes about

24:26

six weeks. You really start to feel on top

24:29

of your to-dos and more in control of

24:31

what's going on with your paper. And

24:33

Lisa, what is the best advice you would have

24:35

in terms of the general rules for what

24:38

we need to save in terms of paper?

24:41

So if you already know how you'd find that

24:43

same piece of paper online, like through a digital

24:45

search, or like in the case of manuals that

24:47

you never are going to fix anything, go ahead

24:50

and feel free to get rid of it. If

24:52

you are like, I'm not sure if I'm going

24:54

to need this paper or not, I actually counsel

24:56

you to keep it. And then when

24:58

you run across that paper six months or a year from

25:00

now and you go, you know what, I really don't need

25:03

this, you'll be more confident as you declutter and you won't

25:05

worry if you've over-decluttered or

25:07

gotten rid of too much. Lisa,

25:09

at the end of each show, we ask

25:11

our guests, what is your nobody told me

25:14

lesson? So what is it that

25:16

nobody told you about paper and what

25:18

to save and what to get rid of that

25:21

you wish that they had that would have

25:23

made your life a lot easier when you

25:25

first encountered the problem? I

25:28

think I fell into the belief

25:30

that we would touch paper once and we

25:32

were going to be paperless. And nobody told

25:34

me as Americans, we can have less paper,

25:37

but you will never be 100% paperless. I

25:40

spent 10 years trying to figure out how to

25:42

get to paper zero and I could never achieve

25:44

that goal. But now that I know the goal

25:46

is just less paper, I can achieve that every

25:48

week. And you don't see a

25:50

paperless future at any point

25:52

in our futures. I don't

25:54

for Americans know. Interesting.

25:57

Lisa, how can people connect with you on...

26:00

social media and the internet. Sure,

26:02

so I have a podcast called Organize 365 and a website

26:05

by the same name organize365.com.

26:08

Alright, well we thank you so much for joining us Lisa.

26:10

This has been just fascinating. What a cool

26:12

topic. Thank you so much for

26:15

having me. Again, our thanks

26:17

to our guest professional organizer Lisa

26:19

Woodruff whose latest book is called

26:21

The Paper Solution, What to Shred,

26:23

What to Save, and How to Stop

26:25

It from Taking Over Your Life. And again,

26:27

her website is organized365.com and what a

26:29

great time to take advantage of some

26:31

of these tips during quarantine while you

26:34

have the time to go through that.

26:36

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'm Laura Owens and

26:38

I'm Jan Black and you've been listening

26:40

to Nobody Told Me. Thanks for joining

26:42

us. you