In December 2023, South Africa brought human rights law into the fold of the Israel-Hamas war when it filed a genocide case against Israel in the World Court. South Africa’s unprecedented move sparked conversation surrounding the line between collateral damage and indiscriminate bombing campaigns.

In this extended cut of a recent episode of None of the Above, the Institute for Global Affairs’ Mark Hannah sits down with Kenneth Roth, who was executive director of Human Rights Watch for more than three decades. He shares his perspectives on Israeli violence enacted against Gazans, South Africa’s arguments to the World Court, the legal application of genocide, and international law.