0:02

TikTok

0:02

is just a symbol of a bigger thing, right?

0:04

It's just an easy, low-hanging fruit

0:06

to be able to take China out. Welcome

0:13

to None of the Above, a podcast of the Eurasia

0:16

Group Foundation. My name is Mark

0:18

Hanna. Today we're talking

0:20

about TikTok, yep, the popular

0:22

short-form video hosting app owned by the Chinese

0:24

tech firm ByteDance and used

0:27

by an estimated 150 million Americans, which could

0:31

plausibly, if not probably,

0:33

get banned in the United States. And

0:35

it all has to do with China. Rising

0:38

concerns over the Chinese communist government's

0:40

influence inside the United States

0:43

took center stage today. Piercing

0:45

questions today up on Capitol Hill. The hearing from

0:47

the House Energy and Commerce Committee kicking off with a

0:49

reminder that misleading Congress is

0:51

a federal crime. TikTok's chief, very,

0:54

very careful in his answers. He says the

0:56

app can keep data from millions of American

0:59

users off limits from the Chinese government, but

1:01

lawmakers counter it. They say simply they don't believe

1:03

it. They see TikTok as a weapon for

1:05

the Chinese regime.

1:06

Fielding criticism from lawmakers on both

1:09

sides of the aisle, you damn well know that

1:11

you cannot protect the data and security

1:14

of this committee or the 150 million users of

1:17

your app.

1:19

Since the TikTok hearings in Congress

1:21

last month probably confused more

1:23

than they clarified, we decided

1:25

to speak to the person who knows the tech

1:27

world best, Kara Swisher. Kara

1:30

has covered issues of power, media,

1:32

and the tech industry for decades and

1:35

has been called Silicon Valley's most

1:37

feared and well-liked journalist.

1:40

And though she might not be your typical voice

1:42

on foreign policy, she's

1:44

more of a wonk than you might realize.

1:47

I thought I would go into either the military

1:50

or the CIA actually, but

1:52

I wanted to be an analyst, especially in the military

1:54

intelligence. And I'm gay and

1:56

that wasn't allowed then. was Don't Ask, Don't Tell,

1:58

so I never did that. So

2:00

I went into reporting instead. So I

2:02

had a lot of interest in, in

2:04

for, I thought I might be a foreign correspondent at one point.

2:07

Not only did Kara want to go into the military,

2:10

she's also been pretty interested for a while

2:12

now in how media can be used to

2:14

influence people. And

2:16

that has all sorts of implications for

2:18

our conversation today. When I studied

2:20

at Georgetown, they have a very strict curriculum

2:23

where you take economics, language, history,

2:26

you don't get a lot of electives at the foreign service

2:28

school. But one of the things

2:30

I focused in on was propaganda. My

2:33

senior thesis was about propaganda in

2:35

China, the use of propaganda by the Nazis,

2:38

and the uses of various tools

2:40

to convince populations or

2:43

to enrage populations. And

2:45

so I spent a lot of time thinking about that there. And

2:48

I did the same thing when I went to journalism school.

2:50

I worked with a professor there and

2:53

was again about propaganda, about the uses

2:55

of propaganda and how to change people's

2:57

viewpoints using different

2:59

medias. And the internet had just

3:01

gotten started and the minute I saw it, I was

3:03

like, oh, look, a big giant propaganda vehicle.

3:06

Like isn't this great for people who are interested

3:09

in that? And so I spent a lot

3:11

of time thinking about that. At the very

3:13

beginning of when it started is how it could easily

3:15

be used a weapon and probably would be

3:17

infected.

3:18

That giant propaganda vehicle on everyone's

3:21

mind today? TikTok. That's

3:23

one of the reasons lawmakers on the right and

3:25

the left seem so determined to ban

3:28

the app, because

3:29

of the fear that the Chinese government could

3:31

manipulate TikTok's algorithm to spread

3:33

pro-China content. It seems

3:35

Cara was onto something as an undergrad. And

3:38

that's why TikTok is different from other

3:40

social media apps like Facebook or

3:42

Twitter or Instagram. As Cara

3:45

reminds us, the Chinese government does

3:47

wield power over Chinese companies

3:49

in a way that the United States government just

3:52

can't over American companies. For

3:54

good or bad, we hear about everything here, right?

3:57

Literally. including every movement

3:59

Donald Trump... makes on his way up to Florida. Like,

4:02

they don't do that there. So we have a very open information

4:05

environment. It's way too open, probably

4:07

for many people, but that's what it is, what it is. And

4:09

so

4:10

those companies are government companies.

4:13

You have to think of them that way. I use a

4:15

burner phone, because I don't trust the Chinese

4:17

Communist Party. And I remember being

4:19

met with, how dare you say that? I'm like, what? I'm

4:21

sorry, they're the Chinese Communist Party. They

4:23

seem to have a history of surveillance and

4:26

I'm not particularly paranoid as a person. But

4:29

you have to wonder, these are the most amazing

4:31

devices in the history of the world for recording people

4:34

and tracking them and knowing what they're doing.

4:38

The problem, though, there's not a whole lot

4:40

of evidence to suggest that China is

4:42

actually using TikTok to spy on Americans

4:45

or is using it as a vehicle for propaganda.

4:48

But the fear that China could do these things

4:51

worries lawmakers and people like Kara

4:54

into seriously considering a ban. Though

4:56

Congress didn't point to concrete evidence of spying

4:59

or propaganda, and though Kara admits to loving

5:01

the app itself, our guest

5:03

today expressed major reservations

5:05

about a Chinese company that could

5:08

be compelled by the Chinese Communist Party

5:10

to hand over Americans' data. So

5:13

how much of this fear is actually founded? How

5:16

effective could propaganda on TikTok

5:18

be? Or how much of this is simply

5:21

some kind of new red scare? one

5:25

is propaganda that they could shade things they

5:27

do that now they in China

5:29

itself they don't get to watch certain things and

5:31

so propaganda in terms of just shading

5:34

something's Taiwan is part of China

5:36

you know they could do all kinds of things or you

5:38

know people watching it could suddenly get a lot of

5:40

messaging that maybe you should think again

5:42

about you know how good the US

5:45

is right that kind of stuff that's

5:48

been going on since the dawn of time propaganda

5:50

some kind of propaganda but it's very hard to

5:52

see versus a poster Like

5:54

that used to be what they did in World War II. They're

5:56

kind of obvious, right? Oh, they're terrible

5:58

people.

6:00

Then they could do things like

6:03

more seriously spy on military

6:05

installations with, say, a balloon. They

6:08

could understand government

6:11

officials and high-ranking executives,

6:13

what they're doing. They could manipulate

6:15

the stock market. They could do things

6:19

like understand, even a worker

6:21

at a water factory, if they understood

6:24

their movements and their ability to

6:26

be blackmailed or just to follow them, they

6:28

could do all kinds of damage to grids and things

6:31

like that. You could think of all kinds of ways that you

6:33

could get in by using information that you've

6:35

leaned. And the surveillance I'm

6:37

less concerned with because most

6:39

people don't really have that much to be surveilled

6:42

about. But I would be more concerned

6:44

about propaganda and the ability to access

6:47

these phones and then you access other things

6:49

like that possibility. And

6:52

so that's the kind of stuff you think about. Yeah.

6:54

And you wouldn't know who they were tracking, probably military,

6:57

government officials, high ranking business people.

6:59

So I want to get more into the potential

7:01

threat and whether you think that constitutes, you

7:04

know, sort of an important governmental

7:06

interest, which, you know, a government such

7:09

as the United States needs to demonstrate in order to kind

7:11

of check or obviate the First Amendment

7:13

concerns around this.

7:15

What is motivating the

7:17

desire to ban TikTok? Is there,

7:19

you've said before, it's not sinophobia

7:22

or xenophobia necessarily. It

7:25

is happening in a broader context of US China

7:27

kind of new Cold War and obviously

7:29

there are moneyed interests in the United

7:32

States. Big tech companies probably would

7:34

benefit greatly from a ban on

7:36

TikTok. So what's your reading? Can you

7:38

point to evidence that it's those things? Yeah.

7:40

I think number one, they

7:43

really are our rival. They really are our rival

7:45

and they are all over the world competing with us and

7:47

minerals and all kinds of technologies

7:49

and this

7:50

and that. You're talking about China. China's

7:53

our actual rival. And I've talked to some

7:55

very significant defense people. I

7:58

talked to an admiral once and he's like, there are...

8:00

number one

8:01

rival and that wasn't weaponry, it was cyber

8:03

weaponry. And so no

8:05

question that they're

8:08

trying to dominate in

8:10

the world, make it a Chinese century, the

8:12

next century, the Chinese century. And so that's

8:15

part of it. And they have a very different idea about democracy.

8:18

We have democracy, they have an authoritarian country.

8:20

So that's a very different idea about that.

8:23

They're much more willing to do deals

8:26

in certain places than we are, that

8:28

kind of stuff. So they're obviously our critical

8:30

rival. So that's that. That's

8:33

one thing. Two is they,

8:36

some of it is, there is really good

8:38

information available. And so that's, and

8:41

that would give them an advantage. And so that would be

8:43

problematic. I think

8:46

probably much of what they're

8:48

saying though is performative because they

8:50

don't, it's more,

8:52

you know, as I said, they could do

8:55

it and not that they will. And so I'm

8:57

most concerned with the

8:59

Chinese government is in it for the long haul,

9:01

which is a trope, but it's true,

9:04

and that we lose our interest and we have

9:06

all sorts of competing things. TikTok

9:08

is just a symbol of a bigger thing, right? It's

9:10

just an easy, low-hanging fruit to be able to

9:13

take them out, right? It's sort of a symbol

9:15

because most of our companies aren't there.

9:17

I'm trying to think of another example of a foreign

9:19

government that owns, I

9:22

mean, essentially no Chinese media company

9:24

is totally independent, right? So this is unique,

9:27

right? Yes, yes, because it's a very

9:29

popular app. It's like, and we can't bring

9:32

our apps there, right? We can't influence

9:34

them.

9:34

Because of the great firewall. Yeah,

9:37

I mean, we have, there's Apple there, but

9:39

that's a manufacturing relationship, and they do

9:42

sell products into the country. Tesla,

9:44

same thing, it's a manufacturing relationship, and they also

9:46

sell product in the country. But none of our

9:48

social media, Google famously came out

9:50

because of spying. Facebook's not

9:52

in there, Snapchat's not in there.

9:54

They're all not there. And so it's

9:57

sort of this unequal playing field

9:59

they get to be. here because we're America and

10:01

we let that and that we get to play by their rules

10:03

there. It's very unfair, but they're never going to let

10:06

our social media sites operate the way they

10:08

do in this country there. They don't let

10:10

their social media sites operate the way they

10:13

do in this country. But

10:14

isn't that just an extension

10:16

of our very different economic

10:18

and political models?

10:20

Don't we then abandon to some extent

10:24

kind of free markets and free marketplaces

10:26

of ideas? Yeah,

10:27

but that happens in trade all the time you're not letting

10:29

us in, we're not letting you in. That's nothing

10:31

fresh and new. But definitely these,

10:34

Facebook loves this, right? Facebook's loving

10:36

this because they've not been able to compete as a product.

10:40

TikTok's a superior product, it just

10:42

is. It's a really good social media

10:44

app. And it's fun.

10:46

It's not even social media, it's entertainment really.

10:49

And so, US

10:51

companies that have to compete with TikTok for

10:53

the attention of especially teens are like,

10:55

Oh God, let's get rid of this one

10:57

because you know, we can't compete and maybe

10:59

we'll steal Some of their best ideas

11:01

like reels is starting to get much better on Facebook.

11:04

For example, Facebook Google

11:06

the meta these these guys have huge

11:08

lobbying operations Government

11:10

relations and they're trying to sway policy.

11:12

They had a dinner They had a dinner the night

11:14

before the hearings with all the major figures

11:16

and it's all the you know It was Peter Thiel and this group.

11:19

They do it all the time. They're doing it all time When I interviewed

11:21

Mark three years ago, he started down that road of,

11:23

you know, it's G or me, Kara. And I

11:25

was like, oh, I don't like this choice. I

11:27

guess you, I guess if I had to pick. And

11:30

you know, this idea of national heroes, you

11:33

know, national companies that are heroes

11:35

for us versus the Chinese. It was always the, if

11:37

we don't do it, the Chinese, same thing is going on in AI

11:39

now. If we stop AI,

11:41

China's going to get ahead. Russia's going to get ahead.

11:44

Iran's going to get ahead. I do wonder

11:46

whether the trade protectionism promoted

11:49

by these huge American companies

11:51

is affecting US foreign

11:54

policy. In the political rhetoric,

11:56

we just heard General Mark Milley,

11:58

the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of stuff.

12:00

need to, you know, the rhetoric

12:02

between US China is getting overheated and we

12:04

need to scale that back. And I wonder how much of that

12:06

is being, is attributable to the to

12:09

the TikTok debates?

12:10

Well, it's just, it's, you know, it was started

12:12

by Trump, but it's the same thing. Everyone gets it, right?

12:15

Nobody gets what's happening in the South China

12:18

Sea. Very few people get Taiwan, but

12:20

everybody gets TikTok like, oh, they're

12:22

coming in here and they're sneaking in on us and

12:24

they're spying on us and they're

12:26

sending propaganda. It's

12:29

writ large,

12:30

the problem, which we think they're doing elsewhere,

12:32

by the way, in more critical places, that

12:34

spy balloon is the same thing

12:37

as TikTok, right? It's just, there's just 150

12:39

million more of them floating

12:42

over our teens, right? So it's

12:45

the same story. And so it's very easy for Americans

12:48

to get like, yeah, what the heck?

12:50

Which brings us back to today, and

12:52

to those congressional hearings we just heard. China

12:55

was center stage for sure, but so

12:57

were the typical ills of any social

13:00

media platform. As such,

13:02

not all the opinions and questions that

13:04

we heard were particularly well-informed.

13:07

Not that they care, but I

13:09

really wish the congresspeople who were in that TikTok

13:11

hearing today could see how much they're getting flamed

13:13

on this app. The Chinese Communist Party is

13:16

engaged in psychological warfare

13:19

through TikTok to deliberately

13:21

influence U.S. children.

13:23

Can you say with 100% certainty

13:26

that TikTok does not use the phone's

13:28

camera

13:29

to determine whether the

13:32

content that elicits a pupil

13:34

dilation should be amplified

13:37

by the algorithm? The comments

13:39

they were made, some of them were very smart and

13:41

some of them were like, Like there

13:43

was one I can't remember the one that was so dumb.

13:46

I kept saying oh my god is embarrassing This

13:48

is an important thing we need to discuss it really

13:50

is we should like are they a national

13:52

security that are they shading things? are they

13:55

spying? And then it becomes this

13:57

scream fest about China and that's And

13:59

then they make. threats they

14:01

can't back up, you know,

14:03

like banning it, can they? Isn't that

14:06

non- it's unconstitutional? Trump

14:08

tried to do it, it didn't work, because all

14:11

these judges were like, that's freedom of speech.

14:13

But of course when it comes to concerns about

14:16

national security, in China in

14:18

particular, the United States is going

14:20

to try to find a work-around. That's

14:22

what we're seeing now.

14:25

The Senate has introduced the Restrict

14:27

Act, which would give the Commerce Department

14:30

and the White House new authorities to ban and restrict

14:33

a wide range of apps and tech products coming

14:35

from China in general. Is

14:38

this the right kind of legislation? Some are calling

14:40

it the Patriot Act on steroids and fear it would

14:42

lead to even broader surveillance here in

14:44

the United States. Is that going to increase the

14:46

size of the security state?

14:47

One of the things I'd say is everyone's

14:50

like, well, in China, they're doing surveillance. I'm like, well,

14:52

we're not China. Well, it's hindering us

14:54

because we we can't be surveilled. I'm like, well,

14:56

they're China. We're not China. We're US. We

14:58

can't do that. Like, I'm not naive.

15:00

You know, obviously all kinds of surveillance is going

15:03

on. But there is, you know, there was

15:05

a reason people were horrified when Edward

15:07

Snowden revelations came out, including

15:09

people in tech. Like, are you kidding me? I thought

15:11

we don't do that. Well, we do, you

15:14

know. So I think that's the big

15:16

thing is who are, who are, what are our roles

15:18

and who are we and does it to me.

15:20

I don't, I think the reason

15:22

we've invented everything, including

15:24

currently the new AI stuff, here is because

15:27

we have a bottom-up approach for entrepreneurial

15:30

and free and open societies. And

15:33

the reason China didn't make it is because that's

15:35

their society. They can

15:37

certainly do really well technically, but where

15:39

innovation comes from is an open, free society.

15:43

We now are having a very thriving moment

15:45

in AI because we, even

15:47

though big companies are also involved, there's all kinds of companies

15:49

getting started because we're here and the government doesn't

15:52

tell them not to create themselves

15:53

or control them or

15:55

own part of That's really the strength

15:58

of us is our freedom. And

16:00

I think that's, we have to really lean into

16:02

freedom.

16:03

I think we do. I'm

16:06

wondering if you're worried about one of two

16:08

things. One is, you don't

16:11

think this debate is being necessarily

16:13

propelled primarily by anti-Chinese

16:15

sentiment, but do you think it runs

16:18

the risk of stoking those

16:20

kinds of suspicions?

16:22

Like when we used to bash Japanese

16:24

cars back when? Yeah, and I mean, we saw during COVID,

16:27

right, there was a rise in anti-Asian American

16:29

violence I mean, scapegoating China seems

16:31

to be a perennial phenomenon

16:33

in American presidential campaign politics,

16:36

right? There's not a big constituency of swing

16:39

voters that are trying to- Well,

16:39

it can be offensive like Donald

16:42

Trump and calling it klung

16:45

fu or whatever the heck he called it. That's different

16:47

than... Look, they can be...

16:50

You shouldn't be doing that, but you can

16:52

also say, boy, these people are

16:54

rivals. How do you do

16:56

that in a mature way, right, instead

16:58

of attacking a country

17:01

for in really

17:02

heinous ways, right? Everyone recognizes

17:05

what he said about that was terrible.

17:08

Everybody should be wanting to get more information

17:10

out of them about where COVID started, right?

17:13

We would like you to open up your thing so we could all

17:15

understand this terrible, this

17:17

terrible virus, and you're not

17:19

doing that. And you can, you should be be able to call them out

17:22

for not cooperating without

17:25

seeming to be anti-Chinese, right? So

17:27

that's operating like

17:29

a mature geopolitical player

17:31

versus calling them names.

17:33

So it could lead to that, I guess. It

17:36

depends on who's saying it.

17:38

I think Trump acted badly around TikTok.

17:40

He kept making China, whatever

17:43

he pronounced it funny. You can be mature

17:45

about it and say, we're worried about this

17:47

and here's why, and make a good case. a

17:49

good case to be made.

18:00

me.

18:00

If you enjoyed Kara's analysis, you're

18:02

lucky because she's the host of several famous

18:05

podcasts herself. She's

18:07

the host of Pivot, which

18:09

she co-hosts with Scott Galloway, On

18:12

with Kara Swisher, which she co-hosts with

18:14

Naeem Araza, and of course the

18:16

very important official companion podcast

18:18

for the HBO show Succession. Special

18:21

thanks go out to our None of the Above team. Our

18:24

producer is Caroline Gray and our associate producer

18:26

and editor is Sarah Leeson. If

18:29

you enjoyed what you've heard, we'd appreciate

18:30

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Do rate and review us, and if there's a topic you

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18:43

Thanks for joining us.

18:44

Stay safe out there, and see you next

18:46

time.